[instrumental music] Welcome to the podcast, where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success, and the lessons learned along the way. I'm your host, Erik Fortenberry. Welcome to Builder Stories. [instrumental music] Welcome back, everybody. Today, I am here with Chris Moore, who is the owner of Senior Remodeling Experts. They are located in Salem, Virginia.
Really excited to have you on this... on, on the show here, Chris. Welcome to Builder Stories. Awesome, Erik. Glad to be here. Yeah. So why don't you, uh, give us, give us a little bit of your background. I mean, you know, y- you've been with us for several years now. I, I think you might have started with, uh, another company name. Kind of said you're maybe going through some rebranding, stuff like that. But, you know, before we get into all that, I mean, just how'd you get into construction?
You know, what, what led you to start your, your business? Okay. So, um, way back in 1986, I am sitting in the employment office in Palm Springs, California, and, uh, I needed a few dollars in my pocket and a call came in for a helper. And, um, the contractor was a guy by the name of Carl Hasik, and he
was Czechoslovakian. He was classically trained as a, as a pattern maker and a master builder, and he was, uh, building his last addition, and then he was gonna go off and build a boat and become a commercial fisherman in, in Alaska. That was his, uh... that was gonna be his retirement. And, um, in the four months that I worked for Carl, I, I just learned more about construction than, um, you know,
most people learn a lifetime. It was a, it was a great foundation. It was... there was one day, we had a... we had this, uh, this glulam beam delivered. It was like 6 inches wide and 22 inches tall and 25 feet long, and they delivered it and set it on the garage floor. And, you know, there was just the two of us, and the garage walls were 10 feet tall. And I'm, I'm looking at that beam, and, and how in the world are we gonna get this beam on top of that wall?
And he didn't seem concerned about it. And there were a bunch of, like, Muscle Beach guys that kept calling on the young lady that lived next door, and one day when several of them were, were walking by, he just casually said, "I bet you guys can't lift this beam and set it on top of that wall." They said, "Oh yeah, we can." And, uh, so they came over and set it up there, and he said, "Huh. Man, I was, I was wrong." And I thought, "Wow." [laughs]
So, um, anyway, then after that, I went into the, um, like the tracks in Southern California where... You know, it was, it was outdoor production, uh, assembly line where everybody got paid by the foot. Everything was, was... You know, you did one thing and, and you did it quickly and...
So then, uh, I came back to Virginia where I grew up and, um, you know, kind of did some other things for, for a while, and worked at, um, a, a component manufacturer that made, uh, roof trusses and floor trusses and wall panels for seven years and, and... as a salesman. And during that time, I, um, I said, "You know what? I'm a better carpenter than I am a salesman. I'm, I think I'm gonna get out of the sales racket."
And, uh, funny thing, after I started my business, I'm like, "I'm spending more time doing sales now than when I was [laughs] a full-time salesman." [laughs] Um, but yeah. I started the company, uh, Solid Rock Enterprises, based on the, you know, the scripture that says, "The wise man built his house on the solid rock, and when the storms came, it, it stood up and, and didn't blow away." Um,
and we built a... Uh, one of my first projects was a, uh, custom house at Smith Mountain Lake, and got done with that house and sat down and looked at my numbers and discovered, to my dismay, that I had made a grand total of $6 an hour building that house. Wow. And, um, so I was like, "Well, that, that's, hmm, that's not gonna work."
And so, uh, one of my, one of my good customers at the, at the truss company called me up and said, "Do you, you wanna, you wanna frame a house for me?" And so this was, uh, this was 2001 when I started the business, and so, um, I framed a house for him. And then really through... from '01 through '08, we were pretty much a framing company. There was a lot of, you know, big cut-up houses, uh, going up, and, uh, curved staircases and round turrets, and, um,
one house had eight different pitches on the roof. It was a stick-built roof. And we had, you know, curved eaves. We had to cut the curves out of two-by-twelves and gusset them on the rafters, and... And that was a lot of fun, but then one day, about long 2008, all of that came to a screeching halt.
And so I was, um, you know, trying to find a new niche, trying to find, w- you know, a way to feed my family, and about that time, uh, my mom and dad, they'd been living in a, uh, age-restricted community in Arizona for f- probably 15 years, and my mom had a stroke, and they moved back to Virginia to be close to family. And, and, um, like the day after they got here, my mom fell and broke her pelvis, and she was in the hospital, and then she was in rehab.
And during that time, uh, my dad found a house, bought a house, and so she was coming home from rehab in a wheelchair, and there were like five or six steps to get into the front door of the house, and five or six steps to get up to the deck in the back.So, I built my very first wheelchair ramp, and, um, put in some grab bars and some swing clear hinges and a stair lift and some other things for my mom.
And that kinda got the wheels turning that I bet there's a lot of older people that are struggling in, in their homes. And so that, that started my journey into, uh, aging in place, and, um, educated myself, uh, earned the, the CAPS, Certified Aging in Place Specialist designation through NAHB and just started, you know, working on, um, you know, what that looked like. And discovered very quickly, there's a lot of people that need these changes but don't want to
talk about it. They don't wanna admit it. The resistance is, is quite, quite large. So I found that, you know, family dynamics and, and kinda talking to people about how, you know, making some modifications to your homes is actually a, a great planning tool, and, um, started doing, uh, grant work for disabled veterans which we, we do a lot of. And, um, so that's when the, the, the, the initials SRE which stood for Senior Remodel, or Solid Rock Enterprises, could also stand for
Senior Remodeling Experts. And so we, we tried to be both for a while. I mean, I, I've, I've always had the, the, you know, I'll do it kind of mentality in construction and over the years, I've taken on a lot of projects that nobody else wanted to touch. And some of them I found out, oh, that's why nobody else [laughs] wanted to touch this project.
But always enjoy the challenge, um, but, you know, we're doing more and more, uh, aging in place kinda work, and so we've, uh, just recently kind of made the switch to, you know, Senior Remodeling Experts. And so, you know, things were going along and, um, 2021 I had my, uh, first, first million dollar revenue year. Uh, we ended that year with, uh, 22% net margin and, um, you know, things were, were really going well.
And then in December of '21, um, my wife, uh, Barbara of 33 years, um, she, she came down with what we thought was pneumonia. And it was right in the middle of COVID and, you know, we didn't wanna go to the hospital so we did telehealth and, you know, antibiotic and a steroid and then another antibiotic and another steroid and it wasn't getting any better and so we finally went to the hospital. And when they did a chest x-ray, they found, um, she had a large tumor in her lung.
And, uh, it was stage four lung cancer, and it had spread to her bones and so, uh, everything came to a screeching halt. Uh, I told my team, you know, "Do what you can. Do the best you can." And, um, really didn't go to the office maybe six times in eight months, and, um, Barbara ended up passing away the last day of July of ’22. And so, for the rest of '22, I was, you know, was kinda just in a fog.
And, um, when, when I first met you, Eric, was at the, uh, at the very first Job Trade Connect, which was, uh, the January, um, you know, right after that. And so I was, um, I was really still in shock at that point. And, um, just have, have kind of from, from there, picked up the pieces and, um, developing a, a company where there are systems and people in charge of different things, because up until that point, I had... Everything was in my head, you know? I was at the job site every day.
I had people helping me, but I was making all the decisions. Most of them, you know, on the fly as, as they came up. And, um, you know, that's a lot easier to do in framing than it is in, you know, when you're doing, you know, new builds or, or full-service remodeling where, you know, you have to have things ordered and you have to have things decided, you know, way ahead of when, when you're going to be installing them. And so, um,
then, then 20... Uh, last year, and I kind of, I kind of just, um, kinda lost focus for a while. And, you know, I felt like things were, um, were going okay, and then it took a couple of years to really, you know, catch up with me, and then last year, we, um, at the end of the year, and looked at the books, and we had, we, we lost $100,000 last year in the business, and that was really,
really, really a wake-up call. And so we are, um, just finished our second profitable quarter in a row, so we're getting, get, you know, getting things back on course, um, and, um, uh, joined, uh, the Association of Professional Builders back in December and working with them on, um, on, on some things and on, uh, pricing and on the, uh, work in progress accounting and, um-Incorporating, you know, trying to do a better job, you know, utilizing JobTread. We came to JobTread, um...
We had been with BuilderTrend, and before that, we were with CoConstruct. We did CoConstruct, and we were like, "You know, there are some things not working here," and then so we switched to BuilderTrend, and we were still kind of feeling like, "You know, there's some things not working." And then BuilderTrend tripled our price, um, and that was...
You know, JobTread was pretty new at that point, but we had heard, you know, we had heard about it, and, uh, called, called Hector at, like, 7:30 in the evening, and he got us, you know, signed up with JobTread, like, on the spot. [laughs] And, um, and then I came to JobTread Connect, and Anna did a workshop on process mapping, and I, I, I remember she said, "We can't fix your company. If you expect JobTread or any other software to, to fix
all the chaos that's going on in your company, it's, it's not gonna happen." And I realized that's what, what I had been expecting. You know, "I'll, I'll buy this software.
Oh, well, that's not solving my problem, so I'll buy another software, and that's not solving..." And, you know, what she said was, "If you can figure out what your process needs to be, what it is, what the steps are that, that, y- you know, you're going to consistently do in your operations, then we can, we can streamline that process for you and make it easier." But that, that going through that process mapping and figuring out, you know, what is, what is our process?
You know, what do, what do we do? What's step one, step two, step three? Um, and, you know, so that's what I've been working on, and, you know, I feel like we've made a lot of progress. Still got a long way to go, um, but, you know, having, having that consistency and then also figuring out just, you know, "Hey these are the, these are the jobs we're good at," instead of just taking everything that comes down the pike. Sure. Man, Chris, that's, uh, that's, that's one hell of a story there.
I, uh, you know, I, I, I, I remember when we first met at, at, at JobTread Connect, and, you know, I, I, I think you had maybe kind of alluded to that you had lost your wife, but, uh, you know, I certainly didn't know the full backstory, and, uh, you know, just kinda hearing everything that you've, you've overcome, I mean, it's, it's, uh... Man, I, I, I feel for you. I'm so sorry to hear, you know, about that. About, about the, the cancer and, and, and losing your wife.
I could only imagine what that's like, and, you know, but seeing you and, and how you've continued to just keep going, and, you know, you've, you've kept building. I mean, I, you know, I see a lot of people that that's kinda the thing that just, it ends it for them, and, you know, they end up kinda losing the business and losing a, a whole lot more, and, you know, it's, uh... Yeah, just, you know. Well, I give a lot of, a lot of credit, you know, to my team, um,
my... Yeah, my son, Joey, and, um, his wife, Sarah. Sarah's my office manager, and, you know, they, they really, um, you know, pull things together and kinda kept the ship afloat. And, you know, really in, especially in the, um, like the veterans work, I mean, the, the, the, the disabled veterans that we work with, I mean, we have a lot of Vietnam vets that are dealing with the aftermath of Agent Orange and some of the, you know, the stuff they were
exposed to. And a lot of those things are just coming to light now in terms of, of the effects that it's had on them. Yeah. And so, you know, we, we lose clients. You know, we've, we've had several that, um, you know, have died in the middle of our project. We've had many more that, you know, didn't make it too long afterwards, and my, my, um... The way I deal with the, the widows is completely different than it was before I went through, you know, my, my own loss.
Sure. And what I have learned at a, coming through that is that, you know, it's, it's in the suffering that you grow. I mean, it's in the dry and the barren places that, you know, you... Your character is molded and your, uh, resilience is developed, and... You know, I had said for years, um, and didn't... Had no idea at the time really what I was saying, but, you know, when there's money in the bank and everybody's healthy and the sun's shining, it's pleasant, but we're not growing,
you know? We grow, you know, as, as business owners, we grow when our back's against the wall. As people, we, we grow when, when, you know, we have a decision make, to make. Do we do the right thing here or do we compromise? You know, do we bite the bullet and, and take care of, you know, and, and follow through on what we promised we were gonna do even, you know, when it's painful
or, you know, do we not? And that, that's how, you know, we, we get molded and we become the kind of people that, you know, we're, we, we, uh, can sleep well at night. [laughs] You know? Um... Yeah. And so it's, um...You know, at the time I would not have, you know, said, "Oh, yeah, this is, this is to, you know, help me with my character." But, you know, at the end of the day, um, it's, it's made me a better person.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, and I tell people all the time, I mean, it's, you know, just the life of being an entrepreneur, small business owner, you know, it's, it's like being on a roller coaster. You know, you, you got the ups and you got the downs. And, you know, it's, it's the times that, you know, you're... you feel like you're at the rock bottom, you know, you don't know what to do. You know, is it ever gonna come back? Are we ever gonna be able to get through this?
Like, you know, those are the moments that, you know, that- that they're either gonna make you or they're gonna break you. And when you can just, you know, keep, keep going, keep grinding through it, keep looking for, for ways to adapt, overcome, you know, eventually, you know, when you start pulling it back up, you know, it's like i- it's, it's, it's those, those hardest times. Those are the times that, you know, th- that they make, you know, those ups and those, those successes,
those triumphs. I mean, they make them feel that much better, and you have that much more appreciation because like you know what you came through, you know? It's, it's... So many people kind of just look at, look at entrepreneurs and, and, and business owners and think, "Man, like, you know, they're just on the top of the world and it's been so easy." And, you know, the- they, they got everything. They got all the money, they got all the team, they, you know, they, they...
You know, just, it, it, it, it often kind of comes across as, you know, so much different than what it really is, and it's those hard times, you know, that's, that's when you build the character. That's when, you know, yeah, y- you gotta, you know, dig deep to figure out, you know, h- how are we gonna make it through here?
You know, it's, it's, it's easy for everybody to, to build a business and, and to do, you know, great and win when it's, you know, we got a bull market and, you know, times are, times are good and everyone's, you know, got money and spending on projects and things. But man, it's, it's those bear markets, it's those tough times, it's the down, the down markets when that's like what really, you know, is, is the test of a, of a, of a true business and a true business owner
and, and leader. And, and, and, you know, I, I think, you know, as we're seeing here, I mean, it's the same, you know, whether it's in your personal or your business life, I mean, those, you know, that, that... We are gonna have really, really hard times in life, and it's, it's how do you persevere? It's how do you overcome and, you know, figure out how to, how to get up every day and keep, keep working
through it? And, you know, it sounds like you were, you were blessed with, with a great team of, of people around you who, you know, you could trust and, you know, they, they, they kept it, kept the ship afloat, as you said. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like the old saying, "After 40 years of hard work, he became an overnight success." [laughs] Exactly. Exactly.
So... I mean, that's, you know, it's such a neat story though, like hearing how, you know, you, you started off, you know, kind of doing various, you know, different roles. I mean, even, you know, sales and, you know, just kind of working under someone else and, and sort of that, that led you to, to realize that, you know, you really liked the, you know, the, the hands-on, the carpentry. You started doing the framing for a while.
Um, but then, you know, again, just through that, through that opportunity, you know, or, or, or really kind of through a need, you know, for, for your own mom, you know, being able to, to, to learn that you can really make a huge impact on the people who, you know, need the most help, you know, physically. You know, being able to, to help, you know, with those, those, those people that are aging in
place. I mean, what a, what an incredible transition for you to, to go and now build this, this business that, that, that has so much more, you know, purpose and, and, and probably passion for it. And I mean, I, you know, I'm sure you loved framing and, and carpentry, but like, I mean, now like you've got that much more meaning invested in what you're doing in every single project. I mean, that's, that, that's gotta be like really rewarding for, for you.
It's in- it's incredibly rewarding. I mean, the difference we make, you know, in people's lives... I mean, there's people that, you know, haven't had a shower in two years. You know, they can't get in... they can't get in the tub. And, you know, we did a, we did a whole house remodel, um, last year for a couple. They were... They're in their 70s. Um, they've lived in the house for 50 years. They love the neighborhood. Their, um, their washer and dryer was in the
basement. Their basement stairs were really more like a ladder. I mean, they were so steep and their railing consisted of a, a rope, literally, on the, you know, on the side of the, of the stairs. And so, we, we built an addition on the back. We put a, a laundry center, uh, on the main floor. We redid the whole entire, uh, house. We put in, uh, an accessible bathroom. We redid their kitchen.
Um, and, you know, it just enabled them to, you know, continue to live in the house that they, y- you know, they love so much and, and was, was special to them. Yeah. And, um, so... I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's very, very rewarding. And, um, I also now teach the certification class. Um, that's a three-day class. I do that online several times a year.
Um, as I, uh... As Joey, you know, transitions into more running the day-to-day operations, I, I hope to do more, you know, teaching and speaking and, and writing. And, and just, just to be able to share, you know, the knowledge and the, and the wisdom and the understanding that I've been able to- to- Yeah, that's awesome ... you know, pick up over the years. So, so what does your... What, what does your full team look like today?
Um, we have... There's six of us. Um, Joey's doing most of the sales. Uh, Sarah's the office manager, does all the bookkeeping, um, answers the phone. Uh, helps with... I mean, she's the, she's the JobTred, um, person on, [laughs] you know, on our team. I, I think everybody on my team knows how to use JobTred better than I do.
I'm, I'm not, you know, proud to say that. But, you know, um... I mean, there's so much there, and I see a lot of the, a lot of the new features, the, you know, the takeoff and the plans and, and all that. I really need to, to carve out some time to, to familiarize myself with, um, with those things. Um,
but, um... And then I've got, um, got a project manager and I've got, um, I've got two carpenters and probably looking to-... um, you know, add- add some more people in the field soon, because we've got [exhales sharply] probably four projects getting ready to start all at the same time. Oh, wow. And, uh, we're working with, um, with a marketing company that, uh...
Contractor Scale, who's out of New Zealand, and they're- they're a partner with, um, uh, APB and, um, probably gonna get- get, uh, flooded with- with leads there that we need to- to work on. And- and, uh, so, um... So what did it, what did it take for you... You know, again, kinda earlier, you know, many years ago, it was kind of you wearing all the hats, having to
do the sales and the work. What did it take for you to get to the point where, you know, you were able to bring on, you know, was- was it Joey? Was that the first person that you brought on, or did you bring on a project manager? Like, how did you, you know, take yourself out of that, you know, wearing all the hats, you know, to- to start delegating and trusting others? It was tough. I mean, it's still tough for me, you know, because my natural inclination is to just, you know, do it myself.
Yep. And, uh, you know, my- my youngest son, you know, would- would always say, you know, "Here's- here's what you do, Dad." I'm like, "You... Okay, well, I want you to take care of this project, and here's- here's how you-" you know. "Oh, never mind, I'll just do it myself." And- and, you know, that was my- that's my natural tendency. And in fact when, you know, uh, in- in conversations with Joey, and he's like, "Well, I don't have your knowledge, I don't have your, you know,
experience." And- and I said, "Joey, you- you've gotta look at that as a blessing," because, um, my ability to do the work myself probably over the years has been more of a hindrance than a help. Because as long as I'm doing everything myself, I'm never g- I'm never gonna grow. And I've found building a team to be much harder than building a house. It's just not... doesn't come naturally for me.
Uh, my dad used to tell me, he said, "It sounds like you're too big to be little and too little to be big." Um, you know, it's like way past what you can do yourself, but not quite to the point where, you know, you've got enough work to justify the salary of, you know, of other- of other people to- to bring on the team. And, you know, kind of just, like, jumping into the- into the marketing with both feet when it seems scary, like, "Well, okay, well, if I do that, what happens if I, you know,
you know, if I get 20 phone calls a day, and I, I, you know, I..." And- and that balance of bringing in more work while bringing in more capacity is I- I mean, both of those have to rise at approximately the same level, or,
you know, you get yourself in a mess. I mean, having, um, you know, having more leads come in than you can respond to in a timely manner, and people get mad at you because you're not- you're not calling 'em back, and you're, you know, you're putting all this money into marketing, but you're not able to- to service those- those prospects is, you know... I mean, that's- that's been a- a- a fear. And so I'm kind of at the point now where it's like, you know, I gotta fish or cut bait. You know?
I- I- I've got to, um... I'm at the point where the- the business has to grow. You know, one of the reasons that we were unprofitable last year is because, you know, the level of overhead I have. You know, I've got six people I'm- I'm paying, and really only two of them are, like, billable hours. Sure.
Right? And so I've- I'm heavy on the overhead, and so the only way that I see to get pe- you know, is- is to increase the revenue and increase the... so that the- the- the percentage of that- of that payroll is- is a smaller percentage of- of revenue. So that's like, okay, well, I'm just gonna, you know, bite the bullet and jump in, and [laughs] you know, let the chips fall where they may.
Um, and because, you know, I've been trying to do these systems for, you know, a couple of years now, and we've made some progress. But if you're- if you're putting out fires all the time, you know, you're- you're out doing, you know, doing the things that really you could have somebody else do- Sure. You know, and- and taking the time to focus on, you know, the things that I'm best suited for. Yeah. And, you know, we're trying to, uh...
We've- we've got somebody, a- a- a virtual assistant doing our- our social media, which we've always been just... It's- it's... I mean, we've had it for years, but it's always been like, "Well, if anybody gets a- a minute to put a post up on Facebook, then yeah, go ahead and do that." Yeah. And, you know, and I'm not, you know, personally on social media at all, so it's not... you know. Um, but we're- we're working on that.
Um, I'm doing- I'm doing instructional, uh, YouTubes right- right here in this chair in my library, um, trying to get a couple those a week up. Just- just talking about, uh, aging in place and, you know, what it entails and what people, you know, can think about.
And, um, uh, starting, I'm starting a new series called Aging in Place is a Team Sport, where we talk about, okay, we gotta have the housing, but you also gotta have healthcare, and you gotta have, you know, finances, and you gotta have transportation, and you gotta have all these other pieces to
successfully, um, age in place. And so, um, I'm- I'm really paying attention to how you're doing this builder stories, because I'd like to kind of have, you know, similar kind of format of talking to people about, "Okay, well, what's your, you know, what's your part in the puzzle?" Sure. And, um, you know, I've- I've been in preparation for this today. I've listened to...... probably half a dozen, you know, in the last week.
And it's, it's really helpful, you know, because, you know, you hear a lot of the same struggles, right? You hear different people's stories. And, and, you know, a lot of it is, you know, we, we start out and, and then we're like, we're just, we're just doing it. We're just getting up every day and, and, you know, getting down there and building something. And then realize, oh, there's, you know, there's a lot more to it, um, than that.
Yeah. I've got a friend, he's retired now, but he was a builder and he, and he was a, a, a CPA before he was a builder. And I learned a lot from him, because he approached it from the numbers first and then the craft. Whereas most of us are, you know, were tradespeople first before we became builders. And, um, I read something somewhere, it said most contractors are not entrepreneurs, were tradespeople who had an entrepreneurial seizure.
[laughs] And, you know, and it's like we gotta learn the hard way because we think, "Well, you know, I know how to build something. I'm a carpenter," or, "I'm a plumber," or, "I'm a, you know, an electrician," or what have you. And, and, you know, so I'm... I'll just open, you know, open the doors and, and run a business. Yeah. And, you know, like for me, for years it was like, I wasn't really running a business, I just, I just had a job. And it was a job that, you know, I had to
get... Wasn't going to eight hours a day, I was going to 12 or 14 hours a day. Sure. And, you know, then I had to, you know, still do the estimates and, uh, bookkeeping, and, uh, you know. So... So, so how, where were, you know, where were your, your leads coming from before? I mean, was it just, just referrals and word of mouth? Most of what we've done has been, has been referrals and, and word of mouth. I mean, the VA, uh, the veteran work, um, you know, we, we often get, um,
from, you know, from the VA. They're not allowed to recommend anybody, but there's very few contractors that really want to go through the red tape and the paperwork and the, you know, the bureaucratic, um, you know, things you have to go through to, to get a, uh, get a VA contract. Um- Can, can you, can you maybe explain that?
'Cause I'm, you know, I'm, I'm curious, I'm sure a lot of others are, they're like, "What, what is that full process look like to, to actually be able to get that contract and do that?" So we have th- w- there are, there are three, um, grants that we participate with that, uh, for veterans.
The, the largest one is the SAH, the Specially Adapted Housing grant, and that is available to, um, service-connected disabled veterans that, um, have a, uh, a, a disability that fits within the parameters of, of the grant. So, I mean, it has to be a pretty significant, um, you know, lost both legs, lost, you know, one arm and one leg. I mean, that kind of thing, or the use of...
We did a new home last year for a double amputee vet that wa- that was all, all wheelchair accessible, and, and motorized cabinets that, that come down to countertop level and, and that kind of thing. Um, but there is a, there is a preemption for veterans who have, uh, dates of service within the Vietnam era, boots on the ground in Vietnam. So, um, and, and those are a lot of the ones that were... Are, are showing up with major health problems now.
But that, but that grant is, um, currently $121,000 and, um, goes, uh, it's, it's based on the inflation, so it, it adjusts every year. But the requirements, um, you know, for that grant, you have to meet the minimum property requirements that they have, you know, for the house. And, um, you know, five-foot turning radius and curbable shower and, you know, direct egress from the bedroom and, and, you know, pretty significant, um, list of, of requirements.
And pretty significant, um, contract requirements in terms of, of what has to be spelled out in your contract in order, in order to be accepted. So, so h- are these veterans have... Are they the ones that have already applied and then, you know, once they get awarded the grant- Right, they're go- ... they're bringing you in?
Right. They have to do an application process and there's pa- the part that they have to fill out, they have to, you know, verify their, their property ownership and their mortgage and, and, you know, some other things like that. And they have to first, first qualify in terms of, you know, their level of disability and, and the medical necessity of, of the work.
Um, and then, you know, they, they will usually contact us and say, you know, "We're, um, we're looking at this grant and would you come out and, and take a look and, and see what you can do for us?" So the, the, the VA, they, they, you said they don't, they can't recommend- They cannot. But do they have a list of approved contractors? They, they do. You have to get on their list. You know, you have to go through- Yeah ... the application process to be, to be on the list. You have to,
um... There's a, there's a national database you have to go onto and update and, and fill out. And so the- there's a lot of, you know, you know, paperwork kind of stuff to do. I'm, I'm curious, do, do you know how many in your area are on that list? They, they never update the list. There's people that have been out of business for 20 years that are still on the list. Okay. Um, but there's really, there's really only, you know, a couple that are actively
doing, doing the work. I mean, a l- a lot of the projects we've gotten have been where, um-You know, the veteran's talking to a contractor who's not familiar with the process and, you know, they're all excited about doing the job. And then they discover, you know, the, the, the red tape requirements. And all of a sudden, they just quit returning their phone calls. Hm. And, you know, they'll, they'll call the, they'll call the VA.
And the VA will say, "Well, you know, we can't recommend anybody, but, you know, this guy has done a bunch of projects for us." Mm-hmm. Um, and then there's two smaller grants. The, um, the HISAA, which is Home Improvement Structural Alteration. That is administered through the VA hospital. And, um, we do a lot of those. Like when we're doing a smaller project, we're taking out a tub, putting in a shower, um, you know, or something of that nature.
And then there's a state grant, um, which is $8,000, and that is, um, similar to HISAA grant. So... And there are t- there are cases where we will incorporate all three of them into the same project, and that gets complicated because they each have their own timelines and their own requirements. And, uh, there was one time we were building an addition, and we built the ramp to the addition before we put up the addition, simply because the grant that was paying for the
ramp was about to expire. And so, we had to- Hm ... hurry up and get that done. S- so, I mean, o- obviously with the smaller grants, you know, the, the, the veterans are, you know, also coming out of pocket. I mean, do you, do you see with the, with those larger ones, I mean, are they, are they able to kind of keep their project within that $121,000 scope? Or are they often also, you know, coming out of pocket for, you know, for any, any additional work? We've done, we've done both.
Um, you know, it ju- it just depends on, on the needs and it depends on the, the situation. A lot of times, they'll tell us right up front that, you know, "We don't, we don't have any additional funds to put in this project, and so we need to, um, we need to keep the, the scope of work limited so that we, you know, it'll, it'll be paid for with the grant." Sure. So, it's kinda like, it's kinda like estimating in reverse- [laughs] ... you know? Yep.
Where, where you start with, you know, "We can't exceed this amount. How much, you know... What, what can we get done?" Yeah. And how, how can we get the most benefit for the amount of money that we're spending? And that's, you know, that's true on a lot of these jobs. Even, you know, private pay jobs, people are, um, you know, they're struggling in their home and they're struggling getting, getting in and out of the bathroom or up and down the steps, or
what have you. But, you know, their financial situation is such that, you know, they, they really can't afford what we would like to do for them. Yeah. And so, you know, what, what can we do that will move the needle for, you know, the, the amount of funding that we have to apply? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So, what's it like from a kind of actual getting paid out from the grant? I mean, is that... Are y- are you able to get some, some funds up front?
Are you getting, like, you know, deposit and then get kind of progress payments? Are you just waiting till the very end? Are you having to cash flow this? No. On the SAH projects, we cannot get a, a deposit. So, you know, there's, there is that whole, um, you know, in, in estimating and project development, which, you know, normally we would, you know, we would have a dep- deposit. On, on private pay jobs, we'd do a project development agreement and give the people a range.
We say we think it's gonna be between, you know, this amount and that amount. And then we get, we get a deposit up front to help to, um, offset our estimating and, and project development costs. But on the, um, on the SAH projects, we, we cannot get, get a deposit. But we get, like, usually four or five draws. So, um, you know, we're not, we're not cash flowing the whole project. But it, uh, it, it certainly is, uh... You ha- you have to plan for that.
Yeah. And, you know, we do, we do a, a mix of, of those. And, um, you know, the private pay projects where we're- Sure. Have you ever gotten, uh, gotten sideways on one of these projects, where like you, you didn't end up getting paid out the full amount? No. Okay. But there was one, because... And they're doing, they're doing these now. They, the compliance inspections, like each draw, you know, um, they, we... Now we just send them pictures, and, you know, they, they approve
it. But for most the time we've been doing these, they would have a compliance inspector who would come out. You know, okay, we've, we've completed the, the rough-ins and, you know, they come out and look and take pictures and, and send it in and we get paid. And this one particular job, I mean, it was at the end of the job. And, you know, this, this was early on and we were, we were, uh, you know, in a, in a pretty precarious cash flow situation, and so we really
needed that draw. And so, we called in the compliance inspector and, uh, they were on vacation. And then they... So they had a backup compliance inspector, and they were on vacation too. And so, I'm, I'm freaking out. And so, I'm calling and they... And they brought somebody in and got it done. But it was, uh- Yeah. It was, it was pretty, pretty hairy there for... S- so what, what portion of your, of your jobs, you know, kind of, or, or I guess of your, your sales, is, is coming from these...
The, the VA versus, you know, just going directly to, to the homeowner? It, it tends to vary. I mean, uh, w- Sometimes they come in waves. But I would say probably, maybe, maybe, a third. Somewhere between a third and a half is probably, um, you know, VA, VA work. And I would say probably q-Two thirds to three quarters of our work is accessibility related in one- in one way or another.
Um... Yeah. So when you think about your marketing and how you're going to, you know, really focus and, and target, you know, the, you know, kind of y- 'cause it's, it's kind of two separate targets, I assume, right? Like, I mean, a- are you targeting veterans specifically and, you know, if, if they may be eligible for a grant, like, are you providing education, you know, to them? I, I don't know if they... Do they always know that they might have these three potential grants available? Like-
They, they, they do not. And in fact, a lot of times we, you know, when we tell people about it, they, they don't, they, they're not aware of it. And so, um, we have, um... One of, one of my employees belongs to AMVETS, and so we're, we're trying to get, you know, to, to go in and maybe do some presentations to some of these veteran organizations and, and, um...
Then... But, but our, our, our broader marketing is more targeted just at, at the general population that, that might be, um, you know, considering, planning ahead. I mean, we really, we really try to push the idea of, think about these modifications before you need them, you know? Yeah. Because people often, they don't want to think about it, they don't want to talk about it. And then, you know, there's a, there's a traumatic event of some kind, whether it's a fall or a stroke or...
And then all of a sudden, it becomes, um, it becomes a- an emergency. And so- Yeah ... doing, doing home modifications or renovations in a state of emergency, um, does not produce the best results. Yeah. I mean, doing anything in a state of emergency typically does not produce... Yeah. Um... Do, do you get a lot of those calls? We do. We do. Um, and so, uh, you know, we gets calls like, "Your mom's coming home from the hospital tomorrow
afternoon." [laughs] And, you know, we- So what, what do you, what do you do for that? Well, you know, there are some, there are some things that, um, you know, we do, uh, I mean, there's the modular aluminum ramps that you can get, you know, in a pretty quick hurry. And, and sometimes, there, there are, you know, there's things that you can do. It depends on the situation. Um... Yeah. But, you know, we, we really try to, to
encourage people to, to plan ahead. And- Yeah ... it's almost exclusively people who have been caregivers who get that and are interested in planning ahead.
You know, if I get a call saying, you know, "We're, we're healthy, but we're, we're wanting to build our forever home," or, "We're wanting to make some, make sure our, our existing home is, is well-suited for us for the rest of our lives," it's almost always somebody who has cared for a parent or cared for, you know, someone and- Yeah ... realized, you know, what, what that feels like on the other side when you're trying to, you know, help somebody get a bath when,
you know, the bathroom's not set up for it. Yeah. Man, well, it's, uh, you know, it's, it's awesome knowing that there are people out there, like you, Chris, that are, that are doing this work, and that these are, you know, that, that are helping the people that, you know, absolutely need it the most. You know, this, this isn't a luxury. This is a necessity, and, and you're there delivering for them. Which is just, I mean, again, ve- very reassuring, you know, to, to know that there are
great people out there doing this, this, this work. I'm, I'm curious, what... You know, where do you see yourself taking the business? What, what are the goals for, you know, for f- for the business, for, for Senior Remodeling Experts? Like, where do you wanna see it in the next, you know, five, 10 years? Well, you know, the, the, the, uh, the p- the prime directive, um, is to, you know, get, get the systemization dialed in. And, you know, get the standardization of, of kind of all of our
processes. That process mapping that, uh, you know, Anna talked about at, at that workshop, to where things are, are, you know, moving a lot, a lot smoother. Um, and then once that is done, um, you know, I'd kinda like to explore the, the idea of franchising. And, you know, making, making this available to, um, you know, to others. Because, you know, it's, it's only going to grow. Our population is, is aging. Uh, there's 10,000 baby boomers a
day turning 65. Um, the, the percentage of people over 65 is set to exceed the, the number of people under 18, uh, very soon. I'm not sure exactly about the year. But, you know, as a society, we're, we're getting older. And most people don't want to, you know, move into senior living. And even if everybody was thrilled about the idea of moving into senior living, there aren't enough facilities for people to do so.
Yeah. And so, the, the, the silver tsunami, as it's been called, is, you know, going to be crashing on our shores. And, um, I- I've been saying for years, there's a, there's a tipping point coming. Uh, up until now, the p- you know, those of us in this industry, it's like, you know, "Well, we've gotta convince people to plan ahead, and we've gotta tell people the story, and, and kind of make the case for why, um, turning Peter Pan homes into forever homes is a good idea."
And but when that tipping point comes, it's gonna be, you know, "How in the world do we keep up with this?" Yeah. And, um, so... I mean, the NAHB says that aging in place remodeling is the fastest growing segment of th- of the remodeling industry.... and so, um, like I said, I teach the, I teach the certification class. I've got a class coming up, uh, next month in May,
and, uh, one in September. And, you know, I'd like to get to the point where I'm doing those more often, because I think that's a, a valuable resource for, for people who, uh, remodelers, uh, in particular, and occupational therapists, and a lot of the other people that work with seniors in their homes to, um, you know, to earn that certification and to, uh, become more familiar with- Yeah ... you know, what the opportunities are in the marketplace.
Yeah. [laughs] I, I love the, the idea and the, and the thought of, you know, co- could you franchise this? Because you're, you're already a natural, you know, teacher, trainer, coach. Like, you could help so many others- Mm-hmm ... by doing what you're already doing, but then being able to get them set up, you know, with the tools, the foundation, the, the, the systems, the processes.
I mean, you know, again, like, you could save them so many years of the lessons that you've had to learn- Right ... by, by getting [laughs] them those same processes, those same, you know, th- that education that has taken you a long time to, to be able to accumulate and, and, and the experience. Like, I mean, it... I, I
totally agree with you. It sounds like the market is ripe, you know, there's tons of demand and, and, and, you know, you're, you're in a great position to, to not only, you know, help other, you know, builders and entrepreneurs to be able to set themselves up to do this, but, you know, again, now you've, you've exponentially multiplied the impact that you can have on this aging community.
And so, you know, again, I'm, I'm, I'm [laughs] all about, you know, when you find your passion, you know, you, you find that mission and, and, and you've got that vision there, you know, I mean, it... Sky's the limit. I, you know, let, let me know how we can help.
You know, I would love to, to help be a resource or, you know, help you in any way possible to, to make this vision of yours become a reality because, I mean, I think you've done, you know, all of the things that you need to do to be able to, to, to make that happen. Yeah. Well, and you talk about p- pa- passion, one of the things that I've been really, you know, kinda digging into is the whole idea of, you know, what it... what does it mean to grow older?
What does it mean to... and what are our assumptions about that that are maybe false? Um, I'll be 63 in July and, you know, I feel like I'm just now kinda starting to figure out what life is all about. [laughs] And, you know, the idea that we, you know, work most of our life doing something that maybe we don't even enjoy doing so that we can spend a few idea... a few years in retirement, uh, doing what we do enjoy doing. And then so many times, you hear about people, they retire and
then they kind of lose all their purpose. They... And so I'm, I'm really just exploring that whole idea of, you know, retirement. Is that, is that really- Mm-hmm ... you know, what... or is it, you know, having time to do something that we're really passionate about? Maybe it's- Yeah ... maybe it's shifting gears, and that's kinda what I'm, what I'm looking towards of, of spending more
time teaching and... But, you know, just in general of I've been, you know, hearing stories about people o- of advanced age doing incredible things, um- Yeah ... and you know, what are, what are our assumptions about aging and what is that... how can we change that? Can we change that, that parameter and live lives to the fullest at any age? Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm inspired by, um, the, the story of Caleb in the Bible.
He was, uh, one of the two spies that went into the promised land and came back and said, "We can take it." And there's a, there's this passage that says he was 85 years old and he was still just as strong as the young guys. And it was attributed to the fact that he viewed the troubles and the challenges and the difficulties of his life as
bread. You know, that, that... the, the, the hardships, that's, that's bread, that feeds me, that makes me strong, rather than, "Oh gosh, this hardship is so hard and it's so difficult and, you know, how are we gonna get through it? Woe is me." And so, you know, how much of, of who we are is, is our attitude? No, no, 100% agree and, you know, and, uh, uh... Yeah, it's... Mindset is, is everything, you know?
It's, it's, it's what you wanna choose to do with your time and, you know, lot of people just don't necessarily wanna kind of keep, keep staying active and, and, and, you know, taking all the things that get thrown at you every day and kinda overcoming challenges.
But, like, you know, some, some people and, and I think, you know, what, what a lot of people tell you is, you know, the more that they do stay active, the more that you keep going, like, you know, it really does, it, it prolongs your life. Absolutely. You know? As, as soon as you stop, you know, thinking and doing and, and being active, you know, you, you, you start to, you know, slowly die off. And it's like if, if, if you've got that passion and that ability to like, you know, not view
things as work. You know, I mean, I, I tell people I, I haven't worked a day in my life. You know, like, this is my hobby, this is my passion, this is what I want to do every day. Right. You know? And, and that's what fuels me and that's what like... you know, like it, it, it, it helps me always remember, you know, even in the toughest, most stressful times that, you know what? I'm doing what I want to do. I'm here because I want to be here, not because I have to be here.
And, and, and that helps me to not let the stress become overwhelming. It helps me to keep the anxiety at bay. And like, I think when you really know that you're making that choice to keep going and to, to do something that you want to do- Right ... you know, now you're fulfilling your own, your own passion, your own, you know, desire.
Like, you know, it's, it's your own destiny, your legacy that you get to build and there's no, no, no clock or no time that has to tell you when you gotta retire or stop doing stuff. And, you know, I, I love to see you keep going, man. I love to see you build out, you know, a whole franchise network of people that, you know, can make a huge impact, you know, across dozens of cities and states. I mean, that, that, that, that's incredible.
Yeah. Yeah. Man, well, Chris, I, I really appreciate you coming on and, and sharing this story. I mean, this is, uh, you know, just been, been, been such [laughs] an inspiration to me to, to hear and to know, you know, what you've gone... you know, what you've gone through and how you have continually overcome, you know, challenges and, and, and you keep, you know, putting the right people in place. You're, you know, making the right moves. You, you know that sometimes it's not easy.
You know, fear of the unknown is, is, is, is, is scary, you know, and, and knowing that, look, you know, if I open up this, this marketing floodgate, you know, who knows what's gonna come? But, you know what? We're, we're, we're prepared, we're gonna handle it, you know, we're gonna adapt, and, you know, I just... I, I, I, I love that about you. I love seeing, you know, your strong, you know, drive and just this, this, this intrinsic, you know, desire to help others.
And I'm such a big believer that, you know, when, when you do right by other people, when you do good and you put others first, you know, it, it, it... everything just seems to work out and comes back, you know, to, to help you and, and, and, and, and be there
for you in the end. But man, it's, it's just very honorable and, and, and I'm, I'm, I'm proud to say I know you and, and, and, and would consider you a friend and someone that we've, you know, been able to, to, to check in, you know, with along the way. But I can't wait to see where you take this business and how big this impact, you know, can, can be, you know, as you keep building it out, 'cause you're, you're, you're doing a great job, Chris, and just an
inspiration to me and my team. So thank you for coming on and for sharing that. Awesome. Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure. Yep. All right. Well, have a good one, Chris. Okay. We'll see you soon. [heavy metal music] Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your journey along the way. Don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review.
And as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact us at builderstories.com. We'd love to hear from you. I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember, every builder has a unique story. Keep building yours. [heavy metal music]