Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success, and the lessons learned along the way. I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry. Welcome to Builder Stories. Welcome back, everybody. Today, I am here with James Moylan. He is the owner of Design Builders. They are located in Bethesda, Maryland, right outside of DC. Uh, James has, has been doing outdoor
living. He's, he's actually kind of niched down a little bit. He's gonna tell us more about that. But really excited to have you on the show. Welcome to Builder Stories, James. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it. Yeah. So why don't you give us, uh, a little bit of background? I mean, who, who are you? How did you get into, uh, into building and, you know, kind of what does, what does your, your company do?
So I started Design Builders in 2006. So we're coming up, kind of crazy, next year will be 20 years. Um, I had a guy in my neighborhood who run a deck building company, and I was the 12-year-old sweeping up the job sites on the weekends and the summertime. Uh, I went to school for business administration, and when I wrapped up, I went back right to work for the company, looking for a job, um, and kinda got sucked in. Um, and worked, worked my way up for a year or so, then got my
contractor's license, started to do subcontracting. Um, and then from there, just invested everything we made, um, into our website and marketing, um, to try to, to try to grow our company. That's awesome. So you, you... It sounds like you sort of grew up, you know, just being exposed to, you know, construction, and that kinda led to, led to that lifelong interest, I guess. Uh,
is, is, uh... Do, do you feel like kinda going through, you know, college and, and getting that degree, I mean, like, has that been really helpful for you as, as a business owner? I think so. Um, when I started the company, I mean, I, I got the help of one of my accounting professors.
Um, and, and kinda it was my last year, I'd started to really kinda think in it. So the last year in school, everything I did kinda had a little bit of, you know, "How can I use this to, to start a business?" So it wasn't, there wasn't one little thing or- Yeah. ... or this, that, or the other, but it was just kind of a general knowledge and, and stuff that, um, you know, stuff that, that we,
we've run into. Um, but from the flip side, you know, doing all the work, um, I, I did all the installs for the first four or five years. Um, all of that knowledge, you know, I think was absolutely invaluable as well. Yeah. Awesome. I mean, I, you know, I, I... It's, it kinda seems like a, a, a pretty big debate sometimes, you know. Is, is that, you know,
college degree, like, really helpful these days? You know, I see so many people who, you know, they, they literally just kinda grow up in the trades, running the business, sorta just naturally progress and, you know, obviously, uh, you know, you, you gotta sorta learn trial by fire and, and experience I think ultimately is the, the number one, you know, thing that will help prepare you and help
get you, you know, ready to go. But obviously, you know, as entrepreneurs, we know that, you know, sometimes we, uh, we just gotta figure it out as we go. So, you know, I think it's, uh, it's, it's great that you did have that background. I, I found it really interesting though that you talked about, like, you know, one of the first things that you did is getting your website and your marketing set up.
You know, a lot of times people don't really understand, you know, the importance of marketing and, and even kind of can, can, can, can get a little confused about the difference between sales and marketing and, and how, how unique those, those roles actually are. You know, tell us. H- how did you, how did you get the website going? I mean, did, did, did you figure it out yourself? Did you hire someone? You know, what, what led to that?
Um, I mean, that... Like, that was always kinda the goal. I mean, that's the... To me, you have to have sales. I mean, and we... It's kind of a thing we continue to say. Like, the most important thing is sales and marketing. You don't have work, you, you don't have, you don't have a job. So that was always pretty clear in, in, in, in the beginning, and why we made it, made it such a focus. Um, initially, I hired a company to build out a web page, and they took care of, like, the
SEO, um, when it was still a new thing. And, um, and ultimately we got away from that, and we just started to learn the different mechanics of what they were doing. Um, and started to outsource stuff to different people to handle different pieces. You know, handle YouTube, handle Twitter when it was Twitter, and Facebook and... Um, but most of the stuff we, we, we did was, um, build out our blogs and build out content, um, which is kinda similar,
similar to what you're doing now. So our, our entire marketing strategy was just to contact people in the industry, you know, your Trexes, your TimberTechs, your Danbrook cabinets, um, and create relationships with their, with their marketing departments. Um, learn about them. We would set up a meeting like this, a Zoom meeting, and, uh, interview them. It would help us learn about their products, so it would help our sales team.
We would record the meetings, and then our marketing team would take it and slice it and dice it, turn it into blogs, turn it into PDFs, turn it into, uh, call to actions for our website, um, and, and just take that and put it all over the place. And having, you know... After three, four, five, six, seven, eight years, um, the webs- you know, the website exploded. Man, that's, uh... (laughs) That's,
that's, that's so smart, man. Like, you know, being able to kind of, you know, leverage those other brands, you know, and get their name on your website, in your content, so that when other people are searching, you know, they're in your area. I mean, that's, uh... I- it reminds me of, uh, you know, something that I read about in, uh, you know, Marcus Sheridan's book, The Ask Your Answer. Don't know if you've read that book. It's, like, one of my all-time
favorites. Highly recommend it. But, you know, he, he talked about how when, when he built the River Pools brand, you know, he started, you know, basically just creating all these blogs about, you know, all of the different players in the space, even in his local market. Like, he would have
blogs about, you know, a- all of the competition, you know? And so, like, it, it was interesting because, you know, you know, people would think, "Man, like, there's no way I wanna publish a list of all my competitors, you know, in my area." But, like, what he found is that when people were searching for any one of those companies, you know, they end up landing- They'll find him.
... on his blog post, you know, where obviously there was, you know, something about, you know, River Pools but, you know, they, they would kind of drill in and, like, now they're learning all about them even though they got... You know, they, they, they, they led to their site through those, through those keywords and the SEO and the content. So, you know, it sounds like you had a really good handle on the value- Was that the guy that called himself the Lion or something like that?
(laughs) Uh, I, I'm not sure. I hadn't heard that, but, uh... Well, I think, I think I'm familiar with that company, and in the early stages was something that we tried to emulate a little bit. Oh, yeah. That, that would, uh, that, that would make sense. I mean, they, uh,
they've... Again, he's, he, he really has, has set the standard and, and I think, you know, even what, what I learned an- and actually had a conversation with him recently, like, you know, we, we, we used to have, like, you know, all of this content that we created and we recorded, you know, these meetings with our, you know, with our, with our customers, telling them about all the updates and everything that was happening. But, like, we kept it, like, closed, you know,
just for the customers. And, you know, in his, in his book, and when I heard him speak, he was talking about how, like, you know, the, the, the importance of, you know, uh, opening up and making the best decisions for what's best for your prospects and the market. And if you're making decisions, you know, because you're scared of your competition and you wanna hide things
from them, well, ultimately, that's, you know, that, that's... You're doing a disservice to everyone else and the people who are trying to learn about you and find you, you know, they're- That's right. ... they're, they're not able to. So, you know, we ended up just opening everything up. We have, like, I think almost 500 videos on, on YouTube now, and it's been, it's been a tremendous help for us, uh, to, to have that out there. I'm, I'm, I'm
curious to learn how, how... You know, you, you mentioned YouTube and videos. How, how have you guys leveraged, uh, videos? Well, it's funny. So the, the guy, uh, that runs my marketing program, his name's Tim. Um, he's fantastic. Uh, when I first started, again, when I was kinda banging nails and looking for efficiencies, like, what, you know, what can I do to make this thing work? Um, I got a cold call from Tim and he said, "Hey, I'm a videographer. You know, I do
this, that, and the other. Um, you know, is there any way that I can help your business?" And this was in, I think 2008. Um, and I said, "Yeah." I was like, "I've been looking for a videographer." Um, and back then, my plan and my goal was to make a video so that when I went to a job site, I could put it in my laptop on a, on a DVD, and explain the entire company, the entire sales process. The company... The customer could look at it. They would see me talking, explain the whole process.
I would be out in the back, take our pictures, take the measurements. Um, so by the time that I got in, you know, no small talk. They knew exactly how we operated, what we would do. Um, and we used a program. I can't even remember what it was called. It was a super simple deck drawing program. I would sit down there and start to, start to draw the program with them. Uh, but what we'd do is
super cost them. It was never a kinda one-time, you know, one-time sale. But the idea was to kinda get them locked in on us being the authority, being the most efficient, being the easiest to work with, um, to try to, to try to grow, to try to grow out and, and, and get the sale.Um, that evolved into YouTubes. It's one of my biggest regrets. Um, we stopped. We, we ha- did not put more into our YouTube channel. We probably had 50 or 60 videos out there, but they're all from, like, 2009 to
probably, like, 2015 or 2016. And, and we didn't quite get, like, what YouTube was gonna be. We just saw it as a way to, you know, showcase everything we did, you know? So we would take our blogs and make a video out of it, you know? The best ways to plan out a sunroom. The best ways to plan out a, uh, to plan out a deck, you know? How to use an outdoor kitchen.
Some of the different companies that we would, that we would work with, like Danver, for example, we would go to their headquarters, um, and do video of how to do the installs. And then just put in, you know, put videos out all through the internet of how to do the install, how to do the install. They actually used it for a lot of their, um, a lot of their vendors. They would use our videos, send them out. Um, and, and again, like you said, it's just, it's good information, um, to
get out there. You know, we, we very much believe in helping the community, you know, the deck builder area. I mean, it's, it's a bunch of kind of smaller companies. There's not a ton of behemoths in it. So, you know, all the good folks have a pretty good idea of the other
good folks in the industry. And it's, um, it's nice to share knowledge and it's nice to kinda, to grow together and see, you know, see the stuff that people are building 'cause, like I said before, we got online, you know, we used to build grandma's screened porch that you would think of, and now it's an outdoor living room, you know, that's, that families spend, you know, time in and, and, you know, special occasions. So it's, it's, it's pretty cool to do.
Yeah, um, it's, uh, h- have you... It sounds like you kind of, you put a lot of focus on educating, you know, the, your, your, your customers, like, going into it and about what it's like. I mean, has that, you know, has, has, has that helped sort of, you know, warm up the leads for you and, and ultimately it, it sounds like it kinda has created that, that awareness and sort of started to build the relationship, whether it be, you know, from your website or from videos that they
found? I mean, how would you say that has impacted your ability to close them? I mean, our number one thing we do is educate the client. Um, I just had someone yesterday called in. We did our meeting. I'll explain kinda how we do that in a second. Um, they had just moved into the house two months ago. And I said, "Look, man, um, uh, I'll tell you what I would do. You need to call me back next year. Um, you need to live in your house. You need to know where the sunlight
comes in. You need to know what you're gonna do in the backyard. You need to know what that July 4th party looks like. If you build a deck or an outdoor space right now, two month- y- you're gonna, you're gonna screw the whole thing up." So for us, even if we're losing business, we're educating the people and then hope, you know, that'll just kind of pay it forward down the line. I can't tell you how many times we've had those meetings with people, we don't get the job, but they go out and they
talk about how great it was to do the estimate process with us. And we've gotten business from that. So that's, that's really our number one thing, is just explain, educate, and, and, and, and really, to me, that's what sales is. Yeah. I, I, I love hearing that. I mean, I, I, I, I wholeheartedly believe too. It's, it's, you know, being, being transparent, honest, you know, do what is best for the customer at all times and that, that, that reputation, you know, will
w- (laughs) th- that, that will precede you. That will come back, you know, tenfold over by people sharing that experience, you know? And e- it's like even if they didn't go through with it, even if, you know, they didn't do it, like, that experience that you gave them by being, you know, a contractor that they can trust, who shot them straight instead of just coming in with a high-pressure
sale, you know? I mean, that, that really is so valuable and, you know, as, as, as, as people want to try to sell, you know, larger jobs, more, you know, the, the, the design build especially, more thought out like, "Hey, this, this isn't just like a, we're gonna come in here and, you know, do this, this quick
job and you're gonna be up and gone." Like, I mean, this is a transformation of their home and, and this will (laughs) affect their lifestyle and it will cost them, but, you know, I think being able to, to have that mindset is very, very powerful. That's right. That's correct. Um, our, like, the way that we, that we do our sales, I mean, our very first meeting, we call, we call it's an online design consult.
Um, and, and it's free, you know? Uh, we, in the ways before, we had charged, but, um, what we found is it, it's just better to do it as, as a free service. Um, instead of charging people, we qualify them by making them send in 10 pictures of their house and their property plat. Mm. So to me, if someone can go through that, you know, go through that, they, they don't need to pay me. They're a serious customer.
They're gonna go out, take 10 pictures, answer the survey that we send out so that we can give them good information, and send in their property plat, then I'm, I'm happy to talk with anybody. Um, and then our initial meeting, it- it's online just like this. Um, and we get into the weeds. I mean, we talk, we, you know, I look at their project before so you have an idea of what they're thinking about and, and what they're doing, and, and
we just give them ideas. We say, "Hey, you could, what do you... Have you thought about doing it over here? What about thinking about doing it over here? What about this?" And we pull up our portfolio and you pull up the different brands and we can... And it's just an education system. So we don't go into people's house and do the small talk and have that awkward 10, 15 minutes that nobody likes and, you know, you're out there and you talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
You leave and you can't remember what you spoke about. We have a solid hour of good conversation, deep conversation, answering really pointed questions. Um, everything's documented and then we take, you know, from there, uh, we'll go to our design service and estimate service, um, after that consultation. That's awesome. So i- it's, you know, kind of a, a Zoom meeting upfront. Um,
you know, no charge. But it sounds like after that, kinda once you've, you've kinda figured out, Hey, this is, this is what it sounds like you'd be interested in, is the, is that next step, is there a charge for the, the, the design and estimate? We don't. Like, w- we found that if we get to that stage, our close rate's about 80%. Okay. So we just, we just need to get them to that next meeting, um, and, and, and, and
they'll, they'll do the, they'll do the job with us. Um, and then in that next meeting, um, it's online again, um, and we have an estimate and a design. So we start the meeting, you know, take everything that, what we spoke about, have a design pulled up. It's not meant to be perfect, but at least it's, you know, pencil to paper, they have an idea
of what they're looking at. Um, and we give them a detailed estimate and then that is a detailed walkthrough, educationalized on what the estimate is, why you have this, why you have this, you can do it this ways. There's three different ways to do it. You can use this material, you can use that material. Sometimes it's better to do this, sometimes it's better to do that. And ultimately, trying to figure
out, like, what is going to be best for them, you know? What are their very, very, very specific needs that we can try to solve, um, and try to make it, you know, make it a good space they're gonna use as much as absolutely possible.
Yeah, that's- And then from there, you know, if everything looks good, then, you know, we will, we'll do a, an onsite visit next just as a kind of a handshake and, you know, make sure there's nothing that we missed, like a gas line or a vent or something that we might not have seen.
It really never happens. We almost do that just because people are like, “Are we really gonna do this project without ever meeting in person?” You know, it's people still kinda can't get over that hurdle, so it's really- Yeah. ... just kind of a hi, how you doing handshake. Um, and then finally, we get them into our showrooms so they can make their final choices. Um, and then they can s- Okay, so- Go ahead. Well, I, I, I'm curious. H- how long would you say you spend on that initial design?
Um, so I have, uh, I have someone that does that design work. Typically, it takes her about an hour. Okay. You know, about an hour to put together a design, um, and then our estimate, um, and you know how quick it is to do an estimate in JobTread. Um, so once you have the whole thing set up, I mean, you can have the estimate done in, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes. Um, and, and then it's re- and then it's ready to go. But again, it's not meant to be
perfect. It's meant, you know, it's, it's pretty detailed, but it's meant to at least give them an idea. Sure. Then they have an idea, budget. You can break the thing apart. You can make it bigger. You can make it smaller. Mm-hmm. You know, just depending on what, you know, what, what they're, what they're trying to do. Do you ever get stuck in, uh, this, this revision, uh, you know, cycle where there's just constant revisions and they're not, like, kinda moving forward or...
So in, in our whole thing, we, we put in there, it doesn't happen often, but we'll give them three revisions. Okay. So that's, that's kind of like there is a little, you know, a little thing they sign off on, but it rarely happens. Yeah. And typically, like, I mean, we're, we're, we've been pretty good at catching the red flags
well ahead of time. And, and typically, once we kinda get to that point, you know, the final red flag kinda goes up and it's, you know, typically s- somebody that w- we call, like, they like to shop and think and dream. You know, and then, you know, there's a small percentage of, of the people that come in, like, they don't have intention of building it, they just wanna
play with the designs, and it's typically those folks. You know, once you get to the number three, it's, you know, we, we, we kinda cut beat just a little bit. Sure. And so, y- you said that kind of after, after you've given them the, the detailed proposal, they're comfortable, you know, moving forward. Are, are you collecting a signature at that point and kind of getting that commitment? Or do you bring them to the showroom, do the selections and then-
I, it's either/or. You know, we try to like, again, we try to... I read something a while back. You know, people have heard of the golden rule. Um, there's a book someone wrote, they said it's the platinum rule. So, you don't do onto others the way that you want to be done. You do onto others the way that they want to be done. So early in this stage, we try to figure out like what, you know, what, how, how are they gonna.......................... Some people wanna sign right away,
and boom, that's easy. Uh, we do it right through the system, digital signature. We've had during COVID, I was signing the projects in that second meeting. Oh. So I would do the first meeting, and I would sell three projects a day. We'd do the second meeting and they'd do a digital signature, and we're off to the races. Um, after, you know, when things kind of got back to the normal, um, you know, some folks will sign right there. Ah.
Um, but I, I'd say it's 50/50. Some people will kinda sign off in the, in the showroom. Sometimes they don't do it in the showroom. They wanna wait a little bit longer. Yeah. Um, it kind of depends on, you know, we have some customers that they wanna have everything lined up before they start. Yep. You know, every tiny thing lined up. Yeah. Some people don't. And that's what we try to figure out. You know, the people that don't care, they'll sign right away.
You know, we know that they're gonna be very easy to kind of go back and forth with, with adjustments. The folks that wanna have everything lined up, they're pretty easy to pick out early in the stage. You know, so you can kind of figure out that they're gonna want everything lined up. And we take our sweet time with them and, you know, and, and, and, you know, have them sign when they're comfortable. Sure. So bringing them into the, the
showroom. So, so tell us a little bit about your showroom. I, you know, again, I, a lot of times people debate, you know, should we get a showroom? Is it worth it? Like, you know, how does that affect the sale? You know, I've, I've heard people say like that's like the absolute game changer for them. Like, they get them into that showroom as fast as possible. Like, what, what's kinda, what, what's the background on you?
I mean, I, so our showroom now is only two years old. And I would say it's an absolute game changer. Um, when I started the company a long time ago, I, I wanted to utilize technology and not have any employees, no offices, have everything, you know, online. That's why we did the online meetings. My dream was just to kind of travel around, do the, you know, the digital nomad thing before it was a thing. And, um,
and, and, and I've, I've done that. You know, I've, I've sold meetings, you know, on surf trips in Costa Rica and Nicaragua. That, that was the idea. To set the company up for, for it to be flexible, um, which served us well in COVID. Um, it, it, I mean, it, the world came to us wh- when that happened. Um, the issue that, and, and again, so that mentality, um, of not wanting to have that physical base was always my hurdle of, of having a showroom.
Um, but our process was pretty, was really good. You know, we, we loved it. You know, the online meeting, the proposal review meeting, and then an onsite meeting. But there was like a gap. You know, there was that final, it's like, "Hey, when are we gonna do this project?" You know, like, "What do..." You know, there was, there was that gap and the close rate wasn't amazing. Um, and, and couple employees came and said, "Hey man, I think we should do a showroom." (laughs)
And I was, you know, against it at first. But, you know, I've learned when, when the employees come and they got a really good idea, you, you listen to them. Yeah. Um, so, so we did that. And, and it's, I think we have missed one sale of somebody coming in. So like I said before, like that- Wow. ... peer, that proposal review meeting's about 80%. They come to the showroom, I think there's one lady that, that still, you know, is kind of famous there,
who didn't, who didn't sign off. Um, so once they get there, it's, it, it's a done deal. But the thing is, is it, it gives us a little bit more credibility. Where before, you know, we're kind of like floating around on the internet. So it gives us a little bit more credibility on that side. Um, it helps the build because they can see everything. So they're not seeing the material
for the first time when it comes to the job site. We used to try to utilize our vendors' showrooms, but trying to arrange a meeting and go there and make sure, um, everything that we wanted was in there. Now, you know, our online, uh, setup and estimate that we have built out in Job Tread is the same thing in the showroom. So we start at the top and we go to, it's part number one, and here are the different pieces. We go to the next piece and it's these three different pieces.
Nice. So that by the end of that meeting, they, they know exactly what they're getting into. They've made their final choices. Um, and like I said, the, the close rate really, really, really goes up. How, how big is the showroom? It's about 2,500 square feet. Okay. So it's, it's, it's not massive. Um, we put it outside of town a little bit to kind of save on cost. We, and we go there by appointment. Um, so, uh, we use, we use HubSpot for everything. We've been using HubSpot
for our marketing. So everything's automated. Everything's set up with meetings and schedules. So, you know, the, the whole sequence goes off for the first meeting, goes off for the second meeting, goes off for the third meeting. You know, we don't really touch it and it just, you know, we get a message on my calendar, "Meet Mrs. Smith, you know, at the showroom 10:00 on Thursday." Um, and, and so we'll
utilize it in, in that regard. We're trying to find ways now to leverage it a little bit more. Um, out at the IBS the last week, talking to people and saying, "Hey, I wanna put your product in my showroom," had a lot more credence than, "Hey, you know, I, I like your product." Um, so from that end, again, kind of from the marketing angle, um, getting folks to get interested in us, um, it's, that's part
where we're kind of just exploring that part now. Um, but that part I think is gonna be very powerful. Yeah. That's, that's awesome, man. My, again, I, I, I continue to hear that the showroom is, is, is a huge, you know, game changer for people in just like, again, like you said, it's you're no longer just some internet contractor. It's like
you have a physical location. If, you know, if, if, if worst case, you know, whatever, you know, the, the fear of the homeowner is that, you know, again, they're gonna, they're gonna make a deposit and then you're gonna, you know, take their money and run. It's like, "Well, you know exactly where I'm located." That's right. You know, "This is, uh, this is the headquarters." You know, it's, uh, I think that, uh, just helps comfort people and kind of gives them a little bit more, you know,
grounding in that, okay, this isn't just a fly by night. This is somebody who actually has a location that, you know, I, I know where they are. You know, I think
getting to go in there and, and, and touch and feel the material too. I mean, it's, uh, that, that's, that's a huge, you know, huge thing to, you know, if, if they don't like how it feels, you know, when, when, when they're walking on it, if they figure that out the very first time that you're, you know, you've just installed it, you know, obviously- You solved the problem.
... for, for better or for worse, like if, if, if they have that bad experience, you know, it, it just makes it harder for you to, you know, be able to correct the situation versus doing it up front. That's right. So I, I'm curious. Can you tell us a little bit more about, you know, you, you said kind of earlier on and, and, and we were talking about how, you know, again, you, you started off a little bit more kind of broad. Just
everything outdoor living, in the backyard, kind of the, the full experience. But it sounds like recently, you know, or, or at some point, you decided to kind of, you know, niche down. Can you tell us more about, you know, kind of what led to that transition? Like, did, did something happen? Were you struggling, you know, with, with this wider array of, of, of potential jobs, and kind of how did you decide, you know, where to go all in?
Sure. Um, I mean, it's, I mean, I think a couple things in business that are, that are super important, and number one is learning how to say no. You know, that, that's something that's a big challenge. Um, and then number two, um, just learning, learning how to do, uh, do certain things well or do something
very well. Um, so when, when I first started, again, the guy, the guy that I worked for, he built decks but he, he was also a house framer so he'd kind of have like one house being framed and, and build kind of three decks at a time. So had, you know, had the background of like building homes or typically custom homes. He was building for pretty nice architects, or building some kind of pretty cool homes and then these kind of fancy decks.
Um, so when I started the company, we, we kind of did the same thing. You know, and, and again, kind of starting off trying to find work. You know, decks were always kind of our main, you know, our main thing. That's what we're best at. But we would take a bathroom. We would take a basement. You know, we would do an addition. You know, we've done four or five additions. Um, we would do a patio. Any, anywhere to get work. Um, and as we grew the company, um,
we kind of continued to do that. Um, and as we grew the company and you kind of start to look behind the scenes, you know, where are we making money? What are we good at? What's causing us a lot of time? You know, it became very obvious that like we were not good at doing basements. We were not good at doing bathrooms.Um, we were not good at doing patios, um, and, and just in the area that we live in, um, their bugs are so bad.
You know, decks aren't, aren't super usable except for a few times of the year. Um, and we realized, like, what we're really, really good at is building screen porches. You know, it's a nice enclosure, framed roof, um, and make it look like a living room. Um, so i- it was really from kind of a, you know, a looking behind the scenes at what d- you know, where are we making money? What are we best at? What can we tell folks that we're the best at? And, you know, be honest.
Um, and then number two, back to the marketing, is just being an authority on one thing. Um, and, and back, you know, forever, our whole goal was if somebody puts screen porch into this area, we would come up for the entire first page. Not the first listing, not the second listing. (laughs) Our goal was to have the whole page and some of the second. Um,
that was, that was our, our entire marketing plan. Um, so you can't do that if you're doing bathrooms and you're doing kitchens and you're doing patios, but you can kinda get it if you really hammer one thing. Um, so it was, again, real, you know, just from the business side of what are we doing a- and what can we be good at? How do we make money? And then also, like, how can w- how can that help our marketing?
Yeah. That's, uh, very, uh, insightful, like, you know, really, you know, analyzing kind of the, the, the landscape, if you will, of your, your local market, you know. And f- you know, it sounds like y- you sort of, uh, I think, took a little bit different path. I mean, you know, I, I gotta imagine there's, there's a lot of deck builders out there, you know.
Yep. But like you said, you found that there, th- this, this was an opportunity for you to really be the, the market leading, you know, and maybe even only, uh, you know, market specialist in these, these screen porches and being able to build these, these enclosures. I mean, you know, great, great move, man. Like, that's, that's incredible. Yeah, I mean, we're, we're lucky in the area that we live in. Well,
I, I say that now. Historically, we've been insulated with the, you know, with the federal government, so you know, the landscape's changing a little bit. You know, that kinda remains to be seen, but we've, we've been lucky that there is a, a good market, um, of, of affluent homeowners, um, and having, you know, there are a lot of other good builders in the area.
Um, there's a lot of good builders, you know, a lot of good builders, but it's, it's, there's enough of the pie for, you know, for everyone to kinda have their little piece, but to add a little bit of the bigger piece, you know, focusing on that one, that one piece, you know, real- really helps out- Absolutely. ... to, to differentiate.
So what do you do when, when someone comes to you and, you know, they, they, maybe they do want the, the, the, the, the screen, you know, the screened in porch, but maybe they also want, you know, one of those other things that, that you no longer wanna take on? D- do you just re- So anything, like, anything inside we just say, "No, thank you." Um, and, and we, you know, we used to kinda play the referral game, but we got a little, you know, it's,
don't love when you give a referral and, like, it doesn't turn out too well. So I'm, I'm sure you've heard a lot of different people. Some people live and die by referrals. We, we don't like to give out referrals just because it's our name and, and, and, you know, we can't perform the way that we wanna perform. Um, so inside work we just say, "Hey, look, you know, there's a lot of good folks out here, you know. Take a peek." Yep. And we recommend just go on your
listserv, you know. Find someone that's worked in your neighborhood specific and, you know, you'll get a good person. Um, outside stuff, we have a decent network of people that, you know, do good work. Um, so, you know, patio type stuff, we have a subcontractor mason who's fantastic. We don't do it in house. Say it's on, you know, 25% of our projects, but we build a lot of screen porches on flagstone patios or paver patios and they got fireplaces, so.
And the masonry stuff we'll kinda get into a little bit. If we're building on it, we'll use our subcontractor and, and kind of put it all together. If it's a completely different project, there's a good friend of mine who's run a company. They're called Four Seasons Landscaping. They're great. Um, he's somebody that I say, "Hey, you know, talk to this guy. He'll take care of you." Yeah. And we'll pass work back and forth between each other, um, and, and work on
some of these big projects that have a pool and a pool deck. But I don't wanna own a pool. I don't wanna have the 10 years that deals with that, so you know, strategically, um, you know, we'll push, we'll push that stuff off. As far as like out- like, we do a ton of outdoor kitchens. A lot of our porches will have, you know, a nice little
deck with an outdoor kitchen, and, um, you know, w- we do do the deck projects. Um, but you know, it's, uh, most of the people when we do build a deck, we make the plan so that they could potentially put a structure on it in the future if they want to. Yeah. Um, and I can't tell you how many times we've built a deck for somebody with that in mind and four years later they call us and we put a porch on it because they used it two times a year. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point that you bring up. I mean, 'cause, 'cause I, I do hear a lot about how, you know, a lot of times, you know, people w- will sort of find, you know, couple, a couple other, you know, companies in their area that they, that they can refer out to, but you know, like you said, it's, if, if it's something that you don't have a good relationship with that, with that other, uh, you know, contractor and, and, and you, and you really, you can't vouch
for their work and, and the experience that they're gonna provide, it, it is a risk to your reputation because, you know (laughs) again, e- even at the end of the day, even though they weren't your client, you know, they still interacted with you and your business. And you know, I can't tell you the number of times I hear people are like, "Man, this person left me a g- you know, a review, but I didn't even do the project or do
the work." And it's like, well, that doesn't mean that they didn't, you know, interact with you and that, you know, y- you didn't have, you know, that they didn't have an experience with, with your business. And so I think, you know, people do need to be careful and, and make sure that they're very intentional
about who they refer out. And, and I would even say, you know, especially early on when you start doing that, you need to follow up, you know, both with that, with that, you know, customer as, and probably also with the, the contractor. "Hey, how did that project go? Did something not go well?" Like, you know, if there was an issue, you know, you being able to understand, well, w- why wasn't that a good fit or what happened?
You know, I think that will sort of give you a lot more insight to decide, you know, that next time, that next opportunity, d- do you wanna send them their way or not? You know, and it probably is better to just sort of bow out and say, "Look, you know, h-
suggest you go look online and go, you know, find a contractor." But you know, it's, it's a really good point that, that you bring up, James, about being, being very mindful about who y- you know, you, you do refer out because they are an extension of you if, if, if you made that referral. That's right. And I mean, it's tough to get a... I mean, you have a lot of happy customers, but it's tough to get customers to go out there and just talk about how good
you are. It's pretty easy to have someone go out there and make 'em upset and have 'em go talk about how bad you are. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it's a lot easier to go that way, so, um, through the course of t- you know, 20 year- you know, almost 20 years now, um, we're, we're pretty cognizant of that and we try to avoid it at any, at any cost.
Yeah. I'm curious, what's, what's like the average, you know, price of your project and, and, and kinda what's the average sort of duration of, of, of how long does it take to actually, you know, do the build? So right now, it's, it's right around 100,000. Um- Okay. ... anywhere between, you know, 80 upwards of like $150,000. Um, typically a pretty nice room with, you know, screen systems, infrared heat, televisions, you know, privacy
walls. Um, some of them will have other, you know, other features. Um, we, we try to keep our schedule or as far as booking like four to six months out just to give us enough time for our, uh, for our design process. Um, so we, you know, right now we're booking I think for, for September timeframe,
um, which for us is, is good. You know, clients don't like that too, too much, um, but you know, m- once we explain it to them, like, look, you know, we have a month of kind of going back and forth with the plans, you know, making sure the material looks right. We have the plans done, you know, they're engineered, they get sent to permitting. You know, that process takes about two
months, you know, i- if, if you're really trying to go back and forth. So anytime we get to like a two-month lead time, it gets a l- you know, it gets a little nerve-wracking. Um, so it's, you know, we have about a two-month process for, for that piece. Like I said, we start the project sometime between four and six weeks, and then the build time is typically about five or six weeks, um, for, you know, start to finish. Um, almost all of our guys are in house, like the main
folks, the carpenters. You know, we do outsource kind of niche things, but... And that's something I'm sure you've heard people kinda go back and forth on. I think there's pros and cons to both. Um, for us, having people in house so we can control and make sure that they're there from, you know, eight in the morning to, you know, to four in the afternoon and, and they're gonna be responsible and, you know, take pride in their work, that's super important to
us.Um, but, you know, I also see that the pros of subcontractors, when you find a subcontractor with that skill set and that kind of mindset, you know, that's golden. Um, but we keep our core folks in-house, and then kind of around the periphery, or if we get super, super busy, um, you know, we'll start to, start to sub some stuff out to, to bring the, to bring the lead time back down. Yeah, well, so what is your... What's the full team look like?
So we have, there's myself, um, there is Kathy Ligor, who is, basically she runs, she runs the show. Um, she's essentially the general manager. Um, her daughter Jamie works with us. Um, she does, um, accounting and also does some of our design work. Uh, we have Tim who runs our entire marketing team. He has people under him, but they're not employees. It's stuff that we, you know, that
we, that we kind of, uh, that we source out. Um, and then from the builder side, we have 13 different carpenters, um, that'll form about four teams. So we keep about four, sometimes five projects going, um, at a time. Okay. So not a- not a huge, huge team, but, like, we've, we've kind of strategically kept it there.
Uh, you know, we've thought about the big ramp up and, and kind of going, but we've, we've kind of kept it here, um, for, for the time being and, and potentially look to scale further in the future.
Yeah. No, that's, you know, that... I think what, what you said about, you know, really keeping the core in-house but being able to leverage subcontractors, you know, a- a- around kind of the, the, the peripherals there and being able to, you know, use that, you know, when you need and, and when you're in a pinch or when you need to ramp up a little more, I mean, like, I, I think that's a great balance of, of getting the best of both of these worlds.
You know, a lot of times people do. They s- they struggle to decide, you know. Do, do I bring them in-house? Do I, you know, leverage subs? And, you know, I think there's a really healthy mix. I mean, obviously, you know, if, if you start with them as a subcontractor, that gives you that opportunity to, to kind of, you know, get a feel for them, work with them, understand who they are, test out their work, uh, uh,
if you will. But then, you know, you always have the ability to, to try to bring them in-house if, if you want, you know, to, to, to lock them in and give them those additional benefits. And, um, you know, I think, I think that's a, that's a good mindset to, to sort of have because it doesn't have to be, you know, all one way or the other, you know? That's right. It's kind of about, you know, managing that, that healthy balance.
I agree. No, I agree wholeheartedly. It's, it's, it's worked well for us. Uh, like I said, there's pros and cons to both, and, and having a little bit of both is, is definitely, I think, a good thing. Yeah. So I- I'm curious, you know, when, when you kind of look back on, on this team that you've built. I mean, you know, again, from, from an office, you know, kind of the, the back office standpoint, the, the design, the
accounting, you know, project management, estimating, all that. I mean, like, how did you decide when to start bringing on those, those people? I- I imagine early in the beginning, it was, it was you wearing all those hats. That's right. And so, like, you know, a lot of people kind of struggle to know, like, when is the right time to bring on a, a- an employee to focus on, you know, one of those functions, you know? How, how, how did you sort of figure out that timing?
I mean, that's, that's tricky. Um, I mean, I wish honestly I had done it a little bit earlier. You know, I think wearing the, wearing the hats, while you think you're kind of saving money and saving time, you know, you're really just, you're burning yourself out and, you know, you're probably not being as productive as, as you, you could be. Um, you know, e- early on, you know, after doing the managing, you know, Kathy was the first person that I
brought in, um, who... And she was brought in to do the books. Basically just kind of do the books. Um, but she's the type of person that just... She loves to work, um, and, and just kind of got herself into everything and learned the entire company and just kind of kept going and going and going. Um, and we were lucky enough to have her daughter, who's basically cut from the same cloth, join us, and she came in from the accounting. So they
both kind of had accounting backgrounds. Um, and then ultimately the first one was referred to me from my accountant. And he came up to me and said, "Jamie, you need to hire this gal." And he's like, "Y- y- you just, you need to hire her." And I said, "Okay. If you speak that highly, I'm, you know, I'ma bring her in." Um, so, so we were pretty lucky in that regard. Um, and then I mentioned, you know, with Tim,
um, I met him a long time ago when he reached out, um, with the videography stuff. And we had kept in touch. You know, he basically was a, you know, kind of a marketing subcontractor. Um, you know, would just kind of piecemeal work to him up until, man, six years ago now. Um, so six years ago, um, I, I, I brought him in-house, you know. He was doing video stuff for us, he was handling a lot of other stuff. Um, I had a guy that was working for me
running our, running our HubSpot, and I called him and I said, "Hey, look. Um, you know, I'm not super happy with how, how this guy is, you know, performing. I think you would be awesome for the job. I kind of assume you don't want the job, but if you want the job, it's yours." And he was like, "I wish you had asked earlier." So he, he, you know, he came in and, um, and kind of took over, you know, that whole marketing
piece and, and kind of ran with it, which was super, super helpful. Um, and, and then from there, I mean, we've tried to u- you know, leverage, you know, leverage the technology, you know, from inout. Like, BuilderTrend is fantastic. You know, we were with a- another company that was, you know, somewhat similar before and, and we switched over after they, they got bought. Um, and, you know, just learning those systems and just going
through each piece. I mean, that would be my big ad- big advice to anyone that's getting into this. Just get the BuilderTrend, go into the different sections, and learn them. It'll change your business. Now was it- Mm-hmm. Was BuilderTrend what you were using before JobTred? Oh my God. (laughs) Keep... Dude, I say it's the, it's the... We... Like, when we were switching over, we were using CoConstruct and, like, we got switched over to BuilderTrend. Yeah.
And we hated it. Um, and then m- Cathy came in. She goes, "I found JobTread and it's amazing." And she's like, "This is what I wanna do, this is what I wanna do." And I'm the jerk who cannot... He continues to just m- m- mix up the names because we had, like, actually moved over into BuilderTrend and it was a nightmare. I mean, it was an ab- Like, for a small company like us, it was just an absolute nightmare.
We had to move us back out of it into CoConstruct where we had kind of lived until we, until we had, uh, had JobTread, and then, uh, now we're building out that system. Yeah, man. I think it's, it's never easy to sort of feel like you're kind of being forced, you know, into another system and, and, and, and I... You know, I've, I've heard that same experience many times. It's, uh... You know, I think n- nobody, nobody wants to be, uh, kind of forced over to something and, uh, you know,
it, it can make it, it can make it more challenging. But, um, yeah. I mean, so, so early on though, I mean, like how did you... Or at what point did you realize, like, you needed some sort of a system? I mean, o- obviously, you know, people kind of go at it on their own, paper, Excels. You know, sort of doing it manually for a long time. But what, what led you to, to, to figure out the, the system? Yeah. I think it was one day just looking in our
office, like, around. We were just like, "What's going..." Like, you got a whiteboard over here, you got, you know, spreadsheets over here. I mean, you're just like, "There's gotta be an easier way to do this." Yeah. Um, and, you know, and then when we went into it, the, the company was CoConstruct and they were... We... I think we were one of the first adopters. They're a small
company, and it was just, it was very simple, you know? It wasn't super elaborate, it wa- it was just what we needed but it, and it would just c- it would just be one part of the business that they would, that they would work on, just like you guys. Um, you guys are... You know, after they got bought, I think you were way better, but you're probably, you know, where they would have ended up, you know,
later on along the lines. They just solve problems for builders. So again, my, you know, my advice would be go into JobTread and just start going through the different pieces 'cause you guys have spent a lot of time figuring out how to make, make this stuff efficient for us. And you'll... And it, it'll, it'll change everything. Yeah. It'll absolutely change everything.
You know, back to, back to Tim and, and, and the marketing and... You know, I, I, I know we've spent kind of a lot of time talking about this, but I think it's such an important thing because, you know, a, a lot of times, you know, people don't realize or, or, or understand the importance of having, you know, that marketing and the whole... You know, the
marketing automations that you talked about earlier. I mean, you know, a lot of people come, come to JobTread and think, "We're gonna be able to kind of do it all and, and be the marketing CRM as well as the, the project management and estimating and all that." And it's like, you know, there's so much value in having, you know, those, those marketing automations put in place and having, you know, that lead
funnel and being able to track that. Because, you know, especially for you, I, I imagine your sales cycle is, is, is a little bit more lengthy given the, the, the size of your projects. And so, like, it is important that you keep dripping on them and that you keep, you know, staying- That's right. ... front of mind and, and making sure that you're continually providing that education.
You know, h- h- how early on did you, did you kind of, you know, decide to implement, you know, HubSpot and get that going? We've been with him for a long time. Um, again, 'cause with the SEO type stuff, I mean, we were doing all this stuff manually. Pumping out blogs and doing, you know, doing the fit, you know, it was just, it was exhausting. So we're like, "Where... There's gotta be someone out here that's gonna make this thing
easier." Um, and we stumbled on HubSpot. And again, same thing, just like with JobTred, go in there and just start going through their different pieces. They educate you on how to do it, how to set up your system. And it's, uh, I mean, it was, it- it- it's like, it- it works on its own. I mean, we- we don't, you know... The- the brand new world coming out now, AI, which we're trying to learn about, is gonna ultimately kinda take those systems that we have and
kind of even, make them even more, more efficient. Um, but, I mean, from the time that someone comes in, I mean, they're dripped all the way through with call to actions and meetings set up for all the different parts. It took a long time to set up, but we don't really do much once we enter a name into- into HubSpot. Yeah. The last three projects that I sold this week and last week, our initial meetings were 2001, 2002, and the other one was 2002.
Wow. And it's just because they've, you know, we've stayed in front of them with newsletters, other pieces, and, um, and, you know, ultimately came back. And then, that's pretty typical. You know, a lot of times, again, you know, give advice to people, "Hey, man, take a year off." Anytime someone has a new house, live in it for a year. And a year goes by like that. Yeah.
You know? It's, it goes by really, r- really, really quick. So, being able to stay in front of them is- is huge on the back end. Yeah. Well, I think it was, you know, definitely a great, great move and, you know, your h- huge advantage to be able to have an in-house person who- who really, you know, is helping to manage all of your marketing efforts and- and huge bonus that he is also able to do video.
You know, I think, I think that's, uh, kinda what I would define as one of those unicorn type people where, you know, they- they- they've got, you know, two kind of, you know, very, very distinct and valuable skill sets, you know, where they can not only sorta manage a bunch of the process and- and kind of, you know, all those different people who are involved, whether they're, you know, in-house or even, you know, outsourced, you know, contractors, you know, subcontractors there, you know,
but also being able to produce and deliver that
value themselves. You know, that- that's- that's tremendously helpful. And, you know, I- I think too, you know, we- we see a lot of times, and- and I'm, and I'm a big proponent of, you know, having that- that marketing automation system in place and then being able to connect, you know, to JobTred, you know, through Zapier or through kinda whatever integration means, like, you know, that- that really just streamlines the whole process so that you can automate everything.
And then I think one of the most valuable things that, you know, I- I talk a lot about, but I don't always see people kind of go do is, is to close the loop. You know, in your marketing CRM, you, you know, you're- you're running campaigns and you know, you know, did- did they come from an ad? Was it word of mouth? Referral? You know, kinda- Yep.
... what efforts are you doing to keep nurturing them? But ultimately, what you need to do is get those final approved dollars, you know, back into that marketing, you know, CRM so that you know, you know, what was the customer acquisition cost? What was the return on your ad spend like? What was, you know, the ROI of those efforts like? That really helps to- to close that loop so that you know these are the things- May thank you, sir.
... that are working, and let's go double down on those. Let's go do more of those. You know, and so again, kinda with some zaps back the other way into the, into the- the HubSpot or, you know, whatever marketing CRM they're using, like, that is so powerful to be able to make those connections. And I- I think having somebody on your team who really understands that and- and- and- and can set that up is-
is so powerful. And- and for those of you out there who- who don't feel like you're in a position to- to be able to bring on a full time person, like I- I can't recommend enough, you know- Yeah. ... go and find a marketing partner, you know, find a company that- that- that you can hire today who can bring that expertise, you know, and- and often, you know, uh, uh, a whole lot cheaper than bringing on a full time person. But like- Yep.
... as- as you've heard here today from James, like marketing was one of the very first things that you set up, and that's just been, you know, this- this funnel that has continued to play out. I mean, the fact that you had- Yeah. ... you know, people from the, you know, 15 or however many years ago are still becoming customers. Like, that is like, case in point the importance of continuing to
nurture, you know, these leads. Like, just 'cause they say no today, you know, or- or you tell them no today doesn't mean that, you know, tomorrow they won't be in a position and they won't be, you know, that- that- that- that next customer of yours. So it's so important. That's right. And I mean, you know, you can look at it and you can say, "Man, that
sounds super expensive." You know, you're running a program. I mean, HubSpot's not inexpensive, but, you know, you're running this program and you have a full time employee, but we don't spend, I don't spend money on advertising. Like that, like that is my advertising budget. You know, very, very early on, I mean, we did the magazine things and we would, like, pay for this or pay for that, and like,
again, we're a small company trying to leverage efficiencies. Like, my whole goal is like, with anything we do advertising, if we make it, it needs to stay out there forever. Mm-hmm. We can't spend $2,000 bucks on a ad that disappears. Yeah. It's a waste of money. We can spend $2,000 on a video, on a blog, on this, that, and the other, and it's gonna be out there on the internet for- for- forever. So every- everything we've done is organic. We don't do any paid
ads. We don't do any Google ads. Like, our advertising budget is Tim. Like that, I mean, that's it. And- and just building out that entire HubSpot system, you know, and- and leveraging all these other different pieces. Uh, so that- that- that's the advertising budget. It's- it's his, you know, it's his salary plus HubSpot, um, and it's, you know, and it's been, it- it's- it's been very, very helpful.
Well, uh, and- and, you know, I- I'd say I think the- the- the strategic move you made to enable you to not have to spend money on advertising is by differentiating your offering and basically being, you know, one of the only kind of full focused, you know, uh, enclosure, you know, screen porch. You know, like that- that, I think, really sets you apart where now
you don't have to advertise. You know, I think for the people who, you know, if- if you stay kind of just decks or- or just remodels and kind of like, y- you've got a much more competitive landscape where you go search for what you offer in your area and, you know, there's a bunch of, you know, pages of results. You know, that's where it might be, you know, even more important to make sure
that, you know, you're- you're getting to the top of that page. You know, again, I- I also agree with you, like, you- you gotta, you know, invest in the content and continuing to put out content, you know, whether it's on a blog, whether it's on YouTube, whether it's just continuing to add, you know, pages. You know, uploading videos and photos of- of all of your work. I mean, feed that Google Business profile. Like, what a great- That's right.
... phenomenal, free resource that people just don't do as much- Yep. ... as they should. You know, that's so, so important. I- I'm curious, how do you, how have you leveraged social though? May- maybe talk a little bit more about, you know, Facebook and Instagram. You know, what- what sort of investment have you made, you know, being active over there? So that's my, that's my biggest mistake. Um, I honestly, like five, six years ago, I- I didn't quite... I don't think I got it.
Um, you know, I didn't see a huge... So we- we did it, but w- we just kinda did it to do it. Um, and it- and it, we had built out our website so much that we were, we were just kinda lucky to have, just leads flying in. You know, it got to the point where, I mean, it was, it was just coming in so much because of- of how much we had done over- over a decade. Um, and we kinda rested on our laurels a little bit, you know? It was kinda like, this is
too, this is too easy, you know? The phone just rings. Um, so we're a little bit late to the social game. Um, you know, we- we've had the, we've had the accounts forever, but... And that's been our big focus. You know, now, you know, before, you know, I'm- I'm old enough to remember when like, the cell phones took over the computers. You know, when I first started in marketing, it was, you know, expert... I remember them saying like, "Five
years from now, people are, all of the ads are gonna be in, on mobile. You know, you gotta be ready for mobile." And now, we're past that time of the social's past search. Um, and search is about to get completely jacked up with AI search. Um, so we're really, well, I mean, w- that's what I spend the majority of my time doing now, is trying to figure out kinda what's- what's gonna be going on with- with the AI search. Um, and then also,
really kinda getting into the, getting into the social. Um, so now, I mean, we outsource some of that stuff. Tim handles a lot of it, and it's actually something that I've done to start to get back, kind of back engaged and back out to the, to the job sites. Um, just because I, you know, don't make it out to the job sites as much as I would like to.
Now I'm making it a point and that's kinda becoming my role in the company, is to go out there and start to pull these, you know, start to pull these videos and start to give a little bit more of insight into what it looks like kinda day to day- Yeah. ... on a design builder's job.
You know, I think the- it- you do bring up a good point. I mean, social hasn't always had the- the influence and- and the power that it does today, and I think that's one of those things that, you know, a- a- again, you've been doing this for so long that it didn't necessarily
move the needle for you early on. You know, the- the- the thing that I've learned too is that, like, it's- it's very important to have, um, you know, kind of really understand the difference between, you know, leveraging a personal Facebook account and- and building the- the- kind of the personal brand, if you will, versus the company brand. You know, we- we can go and post the same exact thing on my
Facebook versus the JobTreads Facebook, and I'll, you know... So- some of these things all get, like, hundreds of- of likes, comments, engagements, you know, and then over on the- on the company, you know, profile, you know, maybe, you know, 10, 20, 30. Like it- it's just, like, crazy the difference. But I think the- the- the important thing to understand about social is that, you know, where people are gonna use it is- is really kinda they're looking for that social
proof. They may have already found you, they may already be looking at you, and then they click and they go look at your social because they wanna see your work, they wanna see, you know, how active is this company. If they go and they see an empty, you know, social page or something that hadn't been posted on in five years, they're gonna think, "Man, this- this company might not even be in business anymore." And so I think it's about just thinking about you're chronicling the story
of your- your- your company and the work and the things that you've done. And so, you know, to the extent that, like, you can just, you know... Anytime you're posting on, you know, your- your- your Google Business review, or your- your Google Business, uh, page, or- or- or just anytime you're collecting, you know, photos and- and- and- and getting reviews and testimonials, like, you know, you- you've already got the content, you know.
You- you're just, you know, doubling down on it by posting it, you know, on Facebook, on Instagram, on TikTok, Twitter, kind of all these different avenues. Like, I think it's just so important to kind of build that into your- your day-to-day process to make sure that you're maximizing the value of that content. And, you know, I- I- I'm also big- big believer, you know, the- the Facebook groups, you know, the Nextdoor groups. Like, being active and involved in there is
such a great way. You know, that's where people go when they're like, "Hey, I need a recommendation for someone," or, "I'm- I'm looking at this type of project." You know, that's where you get, like, the real time. You know, I don't think people necessarily go search, you know, just their general Facebook, you know, feed, because, you know, obviously they don't know who these people are, these contractors. They're gonna miss words. Or, you know, or they would've already had that
relationship. So it's, you know, it's really about, I think, getting involved in those- those groups and being as active as you can there. Yep. And, you know, I think for, you know, for us, I mean, the or- i- i- until this year, we didn't spend a dime
on advertising or anything. Like, our entire growth, you know, to- to over 5,400 customers has been inbound, organic, you know, people just word of mouth, people finding out about us, you know, from Facebook, from, you know, the- the social sites, from, you know, the- the
reviews. And so, like, I think it's so important that, you know, people do invest their time, you know, in that, and- and- and ultimately that, like, that it- it just- it creates this presence for you, you know, both on your- your personal side. And I go and I- I friend as many possible clients as- as I can, you know. Now, Facebook won't... Like, like, maybe every, like, five friend requests, you know, 'cause I just friend the people who go to request to join our- our
JobTread Pros group, you know. Like probably one out of five they let me do is like, "You don't know this person." It's like, "Well, I- I do. They're a customer, but fine." Uh, you know, but I- I think that's really helped to build up that- that- that following and- and- and, you know, people need to think about their- you know, creating their personal brand, you know, in addition to the
company brand, because again, it's- it's- it's all about maximizing that- that reach. So, you know, I- I think social's huge, you know, I'm- I'm big- big proponent, and it's free. It's absolutely free. You know, so. I mean, I think a lot of it too is like, I mean, look at... Everyone can look right now how much
time they've spent on their screen, and a lot of it's on that social. So that's where people are spending just time, and if you're not constantly going, you know, the rule of 27 in branding, like if you're not constantly, constantly, constantly going, they're not gonna think of you to put it into the search. You know? So like, it's... To me, it's also just being top of mind.
You know, it's more branding, it's not super advertising, it's just being top of mind so that when some- You know, when, you know, come home for dinner and say, "Hey, you know, let's build a screen porch. What do you think?" "Oh, I- I saw a pretty cool ad by Design Builders, um, let's check them out." Then they go to the search. So that- that's my- that's my thought, and that's kind of the way that I- I- I've seen it.
You know, I've seen it playing out and I- I'm- I'm- I'm watching other companies, how they've leveraged it. Mm-hmm. Um, but it... For all the reasons for you as well where if they find you on search, all right, let's find a little bit more about this company, um, you know, going to the social and- and, you know, it gives them a little bit more credibility.
Y- you know, too, I- I think there's, you know... There- there is a lot of research that says, you know, social can- can- can cause, you know, a lot of kind of negative, you know, feelings and reactions and- and kind of, you know, even lead to- to depression, especially in young
people. But like, I think at the end of the day, if you realize like that's entirely in your control with the people that you friend and the people that you follow, like, you're building your own, you know, the- your own content stream. Yeah. And, you know, if- if I didn't have JobTread and wasn't following all these, you know, con- construction people, like, yeah, like I'm- I'm sure, you know, the...
My- my- my friends from high school and- and college and who knows what, you know, wherever else in my life, like, you know, yeah, there's- there's a ton of kind of things that- that- that aren't like a positive influence in your life that you might not
just wanna see every day. But like, when you go and you kinda really, you know, curate your- your fri- your friend list and the- the people you follow, like, go find those- those people in your market or- or in your industry, like who are the influencers? Who are the- the- the brands, the companies, you know, that- that are doing great things? Like, every product that you build, you know, or that- that you use to build, like, go follow those companies.
Go keep up with the things that they're doing. Like, this can be such a great education source for you- 100%. ... and a way to keep up with new and innovative things coming out. You know, and ag- and again, like, when- when you start to kind of follow along with these things, like, it- it... You get so much more value out of it as a tool. And- and again, it's- it's free.
I don't- I don't spend my day on there. I mean, I usually, you know, in the morning and, you know, maybe, you know, kind of here- here and there, but like, you know, in- in the evenings, you know, it's not like you gotta like, you know, let it, you know, get in the way of getting your work done, but it- it
is a great tool. So I- I do encourage people to really think, you know, a little bit more about how they're using it and how they can, you know, really embrace it and- and see how it can add value to, you know, to- to the business, 'cause th- th- there's so many, you know, really great nuggets out there that you just gotta sort of follow along. And- and Facebook will get really good at, and I- I feel like I... You know, it's super dialed in for me.
You know, it knows what I wanna see because it knows- It's wild. ... what I'm gonna engage in. And so, like, it's- it's just like this... You gotta use it for a while, but man, you know, I- I can go post out on- on there, I can go respond in- in a Facebook group and we'll just like instantly have people sign up for JobTread or schedule demos.
And so like I- I can tell you, if you go join the right groups and- and you start to engage with the things that, you know, that- that- that are, you know, gonna ultimately lead to finding the right prospects and the right people and driving them to you, you know, it- it can be such a great tool. And eventually it'll get better and better with the algorithm once it, you know, really knows you and- and- and what you care about. That's right.
Awesome, man. Well, look, you know, it- it- it sounds like you have, you know, you- you've really made a lot of the right moves early on that's- it's- it's been awesome to see your success and- and how you've- you've- you've been able to build this. And- and again, it- it's a reminder that, like, success doesn't just happen overnight.
It- it is a lot of hard work, it is a grind. You're gonna start off doing everything yourself, wearing all the hats, you know, just- just like you said, you know, at- at times you wish you would have sort of maybe taken one or two of those hats off earlier to bring on, you know, some people to help you, you know, to
build out your team. Like, you don't have to go at this alone, you know. But a- again, it's- it's been really awesome to see how you've been able to build, you know, such a great company and- and- and- and how you've really focused it, you know, down on what you want to be really great at, you know. It's very hard to be great at a lot of things, you know, so find that one thing, you know, that you can be awesome at, you can be the market leader, you can dominate, you know,
and- and just double down on that, do that. You know, y- you've done a great job of that, James. I- I'm curious, so kind of in wrapping up, like, you know, if- if you had to think back, you know, from, you know...... way early on from the beginning of when you started this, like, you know, what advice would you give to others who are earlier on in their, you know, in their journey, starting their businesses, you know, is there anything that, like, you know,
you, you wish you would've known back then that you know now that, like, you think might have, you know, changed the trajectory of your business, i- it could've helped you get- get up that curve quicker or maybe, you know, skip over a few of those hard knocks that- that- that you took- took along the way?
Um, I mean, I think something that I- when I- when I first started the company and frankly, I would recommend this, I was part of a group called Vistage, um, where it was basically, uh, a bunch of business owners got together once a month, you had a chair and I- to me, I- I looked at it as an MBA and it was also therapy.
So you could... we would both learn and we would both talk about the stuff that was- that was driving us crazy, so I- I- I don't do that currently but I did it for more than 10 years and it was invaluable and every day, I say I'm gonna go back and do it. One day I will, um, just because it's- it's- it's fantastic. Um, and so that's Number 1,
and my chair, who was absolutely fantastic, he had a saying that was, um, "Fire fast and hire slow." Um, and that's, I mean, if- if y- you're a small business, you know, you're trying to... if you don't have somebody that has your best interest, if they're not producing for you, um, you're not gonna change the world, you're not gonna change
people, unfortunately. You know, we think we can. Um, you know, make sure you have people that are gonna be high performers and then on the flip side, h- you know, hire slow, make sure you have somebody that's good, um, and do it sooner than you think. Like, you need help, make that- make that hire.
You know, go through the process early on. You might have to go through a few, you know, and try it out, but- but take that leap of faith, get out there, hire someone and- and kind of get out of the field as- as soon as you can and- and things will start to take off from there, even though it looks like it's gonna be a massive expense and undertaking.
Yeah, that's, uh, g- great- great advice all around. I mean, you know, it's- it- the- the- the team you build is- is ultimately, that is the thing that will determine your success and how quickly you get there and how enjoyable of a journey this is. Surround yourself by- by really smart, hardworking, passionate people who are better than you and can take on those- those- those tasks that
you know you're not best suited for. You can't do it all, you gotta build a team, and that team is- is what will make or break your company, so, you know, I- I wholeheartedly agree. Take the time to find the right people, don't just put any warm body and don't- don't put the first person that comes along into that seat. Make sure it's the right person that you put into that
seat. And look, at the end of the day, if- if somebody is not a good fit for the team, you know, I- I think it's- it's quite possibly the hardest, you know, job of any business owner is- is to let somebody go, but ultimately, the buck stops with you. You cannot let one bad apple spoil the entire bunch. You- you have to, you know, make that tough call, you know, to- to- to remove those people and, you know, again, it's- it's- it's- it's so important. Uh, a- a-
and I also very much agree with you. You know, find, you know, that- that- that group, you know, those- those coaching groups, networking groups, like, you know, again, you don't have to go at this alone. Like, you can leverage, you know, the- the experience from everyone else who's been there in your shoes, who's- who's- Yep. ... gone before you, who's going through it right now. You know, i- it often can feel very lonely
at the top and- and- and- and I just, I encourage everyone. You know, there's- there's a ton of these- these- these groups out there. Find the one that's right for you. You need to interview
a lot of the leaders, talk to their members, you know, really make sure it't the right group. You- you- you know, they're- they're doing similar things, going through similar, you know, processes and- and- and working in similar, you know, arenas as- as you, but like, once you find that tribe, you know, i- it is so helpful and- and- and I tell you, e- e- everyday I see the trajectory of these businesses. When they join that group, it just shoots up and it's so valuable. So I think that's
really great advice, James. Again, I- I wanna thank you for coming on, taking the time here to- to share your story and your experience. You know, really appreciate it and, uh, you know, I'm glad- glad- glad to have you, uh, you know, here with us at JobTred. You know, can't wait to see what the future holds for you, man. Thank you. It's been a blast. Awesome. Thanks, man. See you. (heavy metal music) Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories.
We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your journey along the way. Don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review, and as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact us at builderstories.com. We'd love to hear from you. I'm Erik Fortenberry, and remember, every builder has a unique story. Keep building yours.