Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success and the lessons learned along the way. I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry. Welcome to Builder Stories. How's it going, everybody? I am excited to be here today with Jeff and Chantal Ballantyne from Ballantyne Builds. They are located in Toronto. We've been working with them for a good while now.
They, they, they also work with one of our partners, uh, Randy, with Four Level Coach. So, really excited to have you guys come on. I know Chantal and I have worked, uh, quite a bit, uh, back and forth on, on a handful of different, uh, things that, uh, related specifically to, uh, the Canada market.
And so I just, I've, I've really enjoyed all of our interactions and she has helped us, uh, Tremendously to continue improving job thread, but you know finally getting you on here to share your story So, you know Jeff Chantel, welcome to Builder Stories Hi, we're glad to be here.
Yeah, thank you so much for having us. This is exciting.
Yeah. So why don't you kind of just, you know, tell us, tell us a little bit about, you know, who you are. How did you, you know, start your business? What do you guys do? Kind of give us that full, uh, the background there. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, we're, um, I've been in the industry for my whole life, uh, right through high school. Um, my father was a builder, my brother's a builder. We've been working up north of Toronto and the Muskoka area. So it's a cottage area. Um, so we build mainly on the lakes and, um, so secondary homes and things like that. I've been doing it my whole life. Um, never went to college or university, just straight into construction, started working on the sites and. Doing things like that.
And then, uh, yeah, Chantel and I got married and she joined the business as well. And
yeah, I, I had no construction background. Actually, my grandfather was in construction as well, but not my family and I was working full time and Jeff got into business and it was like a slow Can you help me do these invoices? And then, and then I got brought in and um, after a few years of being in business, I was able to go full time as well, which was very exciting. I think that was around 2018.
We were both able to like, you know, full time in the business, which is exciting because I always did it on the side in the evenings and uh, and then we've been growing ever since.
Yeah. And I mean, we, I worked with my father for many years with the framing and You know, working on the sites, digging the excavation and doing all the stuff, like physically doing all the work ourselves. And then, um, and then once I got a little older and understood the, the ropes, I kind of went on my own and started my own business. And, and then, uh, yeah, Chantal and I kind of took it from there.
It's awesome. So what year was that when you officially started?
We started, you started 2015. So we're coming up on 10 years.
Awesome.
Yeah. Big milestone. Yeah.
So Jeff, I mean, I'm curious, like what, when you, when you first started up, I mean, tell us like, what, what were you initially focusing on? Like what, what were those first projects that you got?
Uh, the first project I got was, um, was a big timber frame cottage on this little lake. And I think my father basically just kind of threw me into it and was like, here, you're going to, I can too busy. You're going to have to look after this project for me. So I just kind of went in and just obviously with my experience and in the industry for so many years.
Um, learned a lot of lessons along the way, um, just kind of trial and error and, um, you know, just every day on site watching the trades and learning how to deal with people and, and, uh, all the little challenges that come up every day on construction is just, there's, there's so many, there's so much of it that, you know, you learn so much through, through the process, but through doing it, yeah.
Absolutely. So have you, was, was that cottage like a totally new build?
It was a total new build. Yeah, it was, um, you know, maybe 4, 500 square feet with three garage, three car garage and, uh,
and the most amazing first client you could ask for.
Yeah, very.
Hugely. So nice. So kind and paid. Very quickly, so it was very patient. It was a nice friend. He knew it was our first builds yeah, he knew it was like your first time on your own in your own business and It was it was good at that at that point. We were only doing one build at a time
nice It started at one at a time
So, so how did they find you? Or did you find them?
It was my father, okay, because it was, it was a referral.
Referral, okay. So how did, you know, I'd say, you know, after that, how did, how did the next one come about? Was that a referral as well, or?
Yeah, we started, um, it was my dad kind of helped us, baby stepped us kind of into it, and then as we started to get known, um, you know, then we started getting the referrals, and then started getting our own referrals, and our clients were, you know, You know, we all, our biggest thing was client satisfaction right from the beginning. So we always made sure we went the extra mile for them and, you know, we started getting our own referrals over time. And
actually until I would say last year, our whole business was still referral based until. Yeah. So it was, um, when we decided we needed to, we wanted to build bigger and we knew we couldn't do it just on referrals. So we spent the last, I think, two years really focusing on marketing and a bit more sales. And then now it's kind of exciting to see like leads coming in where they've just come from the internet or they're like, we saw you on like social media or we saw you on Instagram.
And, um, that's kind of cool too.
Yeah, definitely a, a big shift when, when, when you know you've done something right and others just start finding you without, you know, you having to have that warm connection coming in first. But, you know, I think it's, it's, it sounds like you, you did a great job on those initial projects to kind of, you know, earn those referrals. And that's, you know, I think at the end of the day, a referral is going to be your best lead all day, hands down, just because, you know.
Someone else has already vouched for you and has promoted you to them and you know, I certainly love the the referrals here I know it's a a big thing. Do you do you like, you know proactively though? Like try to you know Kind of capture that experience or or document like kind of what the what the project was and then you know ask for those reviews like is that is that something that you you put a lot of focus on to try to You know Get more out of that.
We do for sure. I would say up until 2021 it wasn't deliberate or active and then after that we sort of made this switch also because we Did start working with Randy from four level coach and there's a lot that he suggested we could be doing so we did implement what he suggested And now, yeah, we, we make sure at the end it's like a pretty nice like welcome to your cottage and here's a document, like a photo book of like progress pics all the way to the final finished product
and, you know, can you, here's the link, please leave us a review, um, It still feels a little awkward, I think, for us to like, remind them when they say like, yeah, we'd love to give you a review. And then, you know, it's been like a few weeks, you're like, okay, but can you please do it?
How about that?
Can you? It means a lot. So we're getting better at that. I think they, people get busy and I just have to remind myself of that. And, um, This year, it's our goal to get a few video testimonials. We'd never done that before, but I think it would be nice. And we have a few clients that I think would definitely be worth like willing to do it and have such nice things to say. So we should get it on film.
That's awesome. I mean, I've, uh, I've, I've met a handful of builders. You say they actually will bring that up in the sales process saying like, look, I'm so excited about this job. Like. You know, would you be willing to, you know, let us capture some, some marketing content and kind of document this process, you know, starting, you know, now going through the build. And then, you know, after we'd, we'd like to be able to capture that story.
And, and sometimes we'll even offer them like a discount or some sort of an incentive to allow them to do that. But I think the more important thing that, that I've heard is that, that when, when the, when the, when the customer hears like that, you think that this project's going to be like so awesome that you want to like, you know, document it.
They know that they're going to put, you know, their absolute all into it, put their best foot forward because they're, you know, capturing all of that, that, that experience. And so, you know, I think that, that really helps, you know, kind of set the stage for, Hey, we would like to do this. And then when the time is right, just be ready for us to, to ask, Hey, we're going to pull out the camera now, you know, you're ready.
And I think kind of going into it with that, with that mindset can be really helpful. I'm curious. So, so Jeff kind of.
Early on, like when you think back about those first few years before you, you know, before you realize, Hey, like, you know, we, we need to kind of go and figure out, you know, how to do things differently or change, like, what, what would you say were some of the biggest challenges, you know, that you had, or like, maybe you didn't expect you would have starting a new business, you know, going into, you know, these new builds on your own, like what, what were some of the
hardest things that you had to overcome?
I mean, just like, I guess it'd be more on the business side of things. Like, I could build a cottage, no problem. You know, it has its challenges here and there, but building a business was a whole other avenue. It was something I'd never, I'd never built a business before or I'd never went to school for any of it. I had no idea. Um, so like, you know, knowing, you know, the finances never, never finances. Yeah. What's that
as a what? Finances? Yeah. Like
I had no idea. Just money in, money out. You know, there's never ever anything at the end of like, at the end of the year, there was never any left because we didn't know how, we had no idea how to manage it. Um, you know, and just like, there was no, um, no systems. There was no, none of that. It was just, you go to it, get up every morning, you go to the job site, you manage all the people, get things done. And every day you just kind of, that's all you did Monday to Friday now.
And so, yeah, like, I mean, learning to learn the business side of things was. And then finally, once Chantel got involved, um, you know, having that driver, like having that person that's going to drive the business side of it forward, the creating systems and processes and like, okay, we made this mistake. How are we going to change it? How are we going to make it better? And you know, that versus me just, you know, okay, that was an issue. Okay, move on to the next one.
You know, there's no change. Um, so I find, yeah, like once I've brought Chantal on and she started driving more of the, the business side of things, that's when we really started to pick up, pick up a bit.
And I like also, I think for me, it was a surprise when I did start getting more involved. Like 2018, we were both full time in it, but we weren't still focusing on the business side. But it was also a shock dealing with so many people, like all the trades and the clients. I mean, the first really terrible client you ever get, like scars you a bit. I feel like I still have PTSD from it. Um, but it was a shock.
Like it was a shock when to realize like, Oh, when things go wrong, they could really go wrong. Like if some mistake or on the construction side, like if a mistake. A mistake can happen and it, and it can be like a 50, 000 mistake, you know, like it's, it was more realizing like, wow, let's, let's try to mitigate all the really wrong things that could happen. Oh. So that was, I think, yeah, everything we do is dealing with people.
So it was a lot, like it was a learning curve to Jeff is naturally pretty fantastic at dealing with people. Um. I can be a little more direct or hard hitting so that there was also that to, to learn on my side of things and yeah. And then realizing, Oh shoot, we got to be like good business owners. If we want this to, to not be so stressful all the time. Yeah.
Do you guys play a good cop bad cop ever with your employees or subs? It seems that way sometimes.
They don't mean it to be but it feels that way sometimes that I have to be a bit of the bad cop and Jaffa is naturally the good cop.
Yeah. You know, what, like, when you think about your day to day, like, you know, Jeff, what do you, what do you spend your, your days mostly focusing on now? And Chantal, same for you now.
Um, now that I'm off the job site, um, I'm doing a lot of like the, more of the estimating and just kind of overseeing the guys, um, to have two site managers, they take, uh, they have like four builds each that they look after. And so I kind of this, like they check in with me, they'll call me, text me, you know, have a question. What should I do here? And so I kind of just oversee them, um, from the office.
And then the odd time, like I go out, I don't know, maybe every couple of weeks I'll go out and just pick a couple of sites and go see how they're making out and just check on the, you know, the cleanliness of it, or, you know, they have challenges on site, then you meet, it'll come look at, I'll go do that for them. Sure. Um, but then, yeah, working on the estimating, um, you know, site visits, going to meet clients, doing the sales, things like that. You know, I like doing it.
I like meeting new people and you know, so it's been enjoyable. I mean,
Yeah, I feel like also like you mentioned in the past too, but part of our big problem was Jeff would have time to do sales and then we would get like really busy and then like no sales would happen. So then we would be like not busy at all. And then so we. Needed Jeff off the site to help drive the sales. And we do a lot of sales meetings together. Um, so we'll go and meet the client initially and do that.
Now we switched one of our project coordinators roles this year, actually to help us more on the, in the office. So on estimates and helping you with the finance side. Um, so that, yeah. So sales now have been really consistent for the last year because. Because Jeff is constantly driving it and getting back to people quicker and, you know, not taking three months to sort of respond, which would happen. And and then also getting the jobs going, like the permit process can be painful.
And now with Jeff in the office, we noticed like, hey, permits are going so much quicker now because like Jeff is there to answer right away. Oh yeah, let me get you that. So that has been really great. Those
are definitely the things that fall short. I think with like any builder contractor renovator is like, you're so involved on the site that all these things tend to like, kind of gets, you know, you know, either by the wayside, for sure. Permanence, uh, invoicing, you know, those types of things, like it's so hard to do. I see
it all the time. And you know, I think it's that, you know, it's, it's that natural tendency for, for entrepreneurs to. To just keep putting on every hat and trying to do everything. And it's like, it's just not, you know, not feasible. And, you know, some of my best. You know, kind of most important advice I think is, is to make sure that somebody is always focused on sales.
You know, if you're not continually feeding the beast, like making sure that, you know, it's not just about, you know, what you've got in progress today, but it's like thinking ahead and so many times, you know, just, just like with you, Jeff, I mean, They sell a job and then they go get wrapped up in that job and they forget that that job is going to end and they don't have anything else in line behind it.
And so, you know, I think that's, that's awesome that you, you figured out that you needed to sort of make that transition out, you know, from just, you know, being on the tools all the time to kind of having that, that higher level focus and, and, and focusing on sales that, you know, seems like it was really good move for y'all. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. And then what I focus, like I'm the business side, finance side, also sort of. You know, looking over, editing, approving all of our marketing content. And then, yeah, the invoicing definitely has gotten busier from two jobs to eight. I feel it now. It's a different animal. Um, and that, yeah, overseeing sort of with Jeff all the jobs and my role is really seeing where there might be some holes that need to be filled and like, you know, where, What were the mistakes?
Have we implemented processes that now address those mistakes so they won't be happening again? And anytime something comes up, That maybe feels like a negative experience, whether it was like a mistake or just a rough interaction. I feel like my role has become to, to see all of those areas and say, okay, have we learned the lesson? Have we extracted every bit of knowledge we can get from that experience so that.
We are better for it going forward, which probably is why sometimes I'm the bad cop because that's
so, so when you, when you uncover an issue, like, let's, you know, let's say there's, there's some issue and, and obviously it's going to have an adverse effect on, on the client, the client experience. Like what, what's the, what's the protocol? What do you do?
I mean, I think we have, we have meetings every month where we sit down with the team and we go, okay, you know, where are the, uh, where are the issues we have had this month? Okay. What are we going to do? We all talk it out. Okay, how can we avoid that? And then we kind of just chat about it. You know, we have you know Okay, maybe we could have contacted this person or maybe we need maybe we need a bigger checklist You know like in job tread in our schedule.
We've built out all these checklists along ever. We have 200 and Yeah,
we're we're up there now like 260
Something like that point. So again every little Every little step there's a checklist in there for foundation or whatever. You got to check this check this And so it's like a matter of, you know, let's chat about it. Do we need to add to our checklist? You know, are we reviewing our checklist to make sure that we're not missing anything, you know, and just reviewing the issues and just trying to figure out going forward, what can we do? Yeah. When
it comes to like client stuff, I think. From the very beginning and certainly in the last like five years, our sole focus has been the client experience. We, we acknowledge and we were part of it. Like construction can sometimes be pretty brutal and like people get really stressed having to build a new cottage because it's such a terrible experience sometimes to get to the finish line. So we thought, what can we do that makes it a really wonderful experience?
There's obviously going to be issues. But how do we manage them so that our client always feels like they're in really good hands, that they're in the loop? So we, we got some negative feedback from clients in the past and they're like, you need to tell us things. And I think Jeff always felt like our job was to solve the problems and find solutions and not necessarily loop in the client. And now it really is.
Like the whole team knows you keep the client in the loop, but like if there's a problem Just let them know or call them and say hey This was something that happened like the installer was putting in a window He dropped it and it fell two stories down into your basement and whatever it was Um, so letting them know and always having the solution when we call the client. So, or an, or a, you know, a number of solutions that they can pick which way they want to proceed.
So we've really focused on communication and, and making sure that the client always knows what's going on. They should never be shocked when, if they're going to pop up to the site on the weekend, they shouldn't be surprised that anything's there. Like we do use. Job Tread fully from start to finish.
We use, I think every single possible part of the program now, um, which has been, you know, a year process, but, uh, actually last week we have a client, a brand new client that we met at a trade show, didn't know us at all. Um, and during our sales process, we show them that we use Job Tread. We show them some of the features. We're like very transparent, even in our invoicing, they see every single trade invoice.
So. He said, you know, between us and a couple other builders, we were a bit pricier, but he went with us because he loved our process and how we go about things. And then last week he said. Like, you know, I signed up with you guys because of how you do everything you do and how transparent you are and, and I'm not disappointed. He's like, it's been amazing. I haven't felt the need to even go up to the site, um, because like your daily logs are posted and you keep me in the loop on everything.
You messaged me back right away and it's been really wonderful. And he's with the process, which is our goal.
Yeah, I think just, just being so, you know, over communative and, and just upfront and transparent and honest, I mean, at the end of the day, like, that's, that is the only way to do it, like, when, when I see contractors trying to, trying to hide and bury mistakes and issues and think that the, you know, the homeowner won't find out, it's like, man, yeah, That often, you know, maybe you get away with it once or twice, but like, it's the times that
you don't get away with it where you're risking your reputation, you're risking so much more than just that one, you know, little thing on that job that, you know, again, if you just come out with it. And you communicate and say, Hey, here's what happened. You know, if it was, you know, your fault, fall on the sword. You know, I think people will, will appreciate that. And they know, and they, they, they expect, look, things will come up. Mistakes will happen.
You know, it's the times when people try to, you know, shift the blame and point the finger and say, Oh, that wasn't our fault or not take responsibility. You know, at the end of the day, like the customer doesn't care. We just need to know that you're going to make it right. And that. You know, whatever needs to be done will be done and that it won't keep happening.
And, and I think, you know, your approach to just, you know, being upfront with them and calling them and saying, Hey, here's, here's our options. Here's, here's what we, we want to do. And we just wanted to make you in the loop. I mean, even things that maybe the homeowner would never have found out anyways.
I think those are great moments where you can really show, you know, how, how genuine and how, you know, just upfront and honest and ethical you are, even bringing those points up because a lot of times they realize, well, you know. You know, yeah. Okay. Sounds, sounds good. You know, it's like no harm, no foul, but like they, they, that builds so much trust. And, and I think that at the end of the day, you know, it really is. It's, it's all about that client experience.
That's what people are going to remember. You know, you could have two builders build the exact same quality product, but the thing that the customer will, will, will remember is the experience going through that process and that that's, that's what will ultimately earn you those referrals.
Yeah, and I feel that it just opens, it opens a door that you don't want to open. It's, you know, if they're hiding this, what else are they hiding? Exactly. Right? They just automatically lose trust in you and then it just goes downhill from there.
And it's natural, right? You never want, like, it's natural human instinct to want to like save face, but we really try to tell the team they don't care, honestly, like they'll care more. If you try to put the blame on someone else or try to hide it, then if you're just like, Hey, we made a mistake. This is how we're fixing it. And they'll be like, okay. Even recently, one of the painter were.
Finishing up a cottage and the painter was staining the last bit of trim and dropped the whole can of stain all over the carpet. It can't be fixed, but like we called the client and we're like, Hey, this, your carpet looks disgusting. We can't fit, like it can't be cleaned out. We're just, we've already ordered the new carpet for that area. It will come, we'll install it. Like, yes, your cottage will be finished. And Won't look perfect, but it will be fixed shortly thereafter.
And he was like, yeah, well, mistakes happen. Like it's fine. Thanks for letting me know.
I
think it feels scary sometimes to admit when you've made a mistake or something bad has happened, but. It needs to be dealt with and you just move forward. So
absolutely. Yeah. And I, and I love too, how you have the, the monthly meetings with your team. I mean, so many people that they don't, they don't take the time to stop and, and, and reflect on what's working, what's not working, what can we do better? How do we prevent, you know, these issues in the future? I mean, like those are such great, like learning moments and training moments for everyone else.
And I, and I think too, it's, it can often be disarming, you know, when, when, when you're, when you're subs and when you're employees see. You know, the owner's coming in saying, man, like I screwed up, here's what happened, like, here's what we want to do differently.
Like, you know, again, you can build that same trust and earn that same respect from, from your team, because obviously like nobody wants to work on a team that's just like constantly screwing up and, and, and not admitting and just kind of, you know, blaming, blaming everyone else.
Like, I think you really kind of build that, that, that, that strong team by having those interactions and taking that time, which, you know, again, I, you know, I hear people, I was like, oh, well, we can't afford to, To take a morning out of, you know, out of the week or out of the month or whatever it may be.
And it's like, you know, you can, you got to reframe, you know, what are we prioritizing and building that team and, and, and building our processes and making sure that we're continually improving at such a valuable thing. And I love that you guys have already dedicated that time to doing that and have that, that feedback loop, you know, where you can continue to improve.
Yeah, and I think it's, it's important that, you know, like Chantal and I were always that way, like just constantly trying to improve constantly. Then now, our team is, now has that same mindset, you know. So like they've started to build that mindset that, you know, Oh, I did, I made a mistake or I did this or I did that, like, you know, How can we improve? And when the whole team gets involved in it, then it's like crazy, crazy growth and it goes crazy.
You know, it goes way quicker when everyone's on the same page. Now,
what does your, uh, what's your team look like today?
We have two site managers, a project coordinator, and then the estimating and office coordinator that helps us. So there's six of us. So three that are more dedicated to the sites and then three of us in the office that are more client facing and sales and sales and dealing with the business and. Which is nice.
And I just want to loop back to like making the time for it because I feel like in the last few years, there's a lot of things that we've done that felt like there was no time to do, um, But if you sort of block out that time, like we get together every Wednesday with like a builder group in four level. And it's so crucial to just be able to, to take that time. One, to sort of reflect on your business, but hear what other builders are going through and, and learn from it.
It's always great when you can learn from other people's mistakes too. And, and, but there's a lot, even I remember putting, trying to. Change our finances and like doing we do like profit first where we put money aside and at first it felt like well There's no money. How are we gonna do that? How's it gonna work? But it did it did work So I feel like when you just commit and put the time aside Then it you see the rewards pretty quickly. Yeah,
and I feel like that accelerates your business Honestly, quicker than anything. If you just block out that time and focus just on like the business itself, like how the way, the way it operates or whatever finances or whatever, like you just focus that time on the business that you need to because or else you're, you're going to hit a ceiling, you're never going to spend any time on it and then you're just going to get stuck there.
So you need to like block that time out, focus, you know, an hour a week or a couple hours, whatever, just on the business side of things. And that's, what's going to drive your business. So much faster.
Also, I don't know that there's anything more frustrating than making the same mistake multiple times. And having it cost you money over and over again. So we were like, hey, what if we just make sure that we are putting in the processes so that it doesn't happen again? And it, so yeah, it's been really great. It's it is really great. It's good.
Yeah, that's awesome. Pretty sure. Like, I think the definition of insanity is like doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. So yeah, it's, uh, you know, I'm I tell my team, I mean, I would rather people try and fail than to never have tried in the first place. Like, I think there's so much value that you can get, you know, from that experience and trying something new and taking a risk as long as, you know, you can own it.
What happened, you know, whether it worked or didn't work and then learn from it and don't make those same mistakes twice.
You know, I think a lot of times, you know, people have this kind of this, this fear of, of failure or fear of doing something different because you know, that it, it just, it might not work out and it creates all this anxiety and these, you know, it's like, man, like, no, like, you know, if we built the right team, if we've hired the right people, we have the right partners.
Like then, then you got to trust them and you got to give them that leeway to, to go and try to do things that, that might improve your efficiency or might improve, you know, the, the, the end result or whatever it may be.
You know, I think when, when, when the team understands that, like, you know, Just as long as you own the mistake, you know, it's, it's, it's okay, you know, we're, we're not going to fire you, you know, that, that first time, now, if you do it two, three, four times, I mean, now, now we got a problem, but, you know, I think it's, uh, you know, it is a good thing for, for companies because, you know, just like you guys said, like, you have to be continually
focusing on how do we improve, how do we get better, you know, these, these things aren't going to just like, automatically or naturally or magically happen. It takes that focus and that effort to make it happen. I'm curious.
So, you know, we, we, we kind of talked a minute earlier, you know, but like, um, I want to, I want to understand more about, you know, what was it like kind of leading up to the point where you, you, you realized that you needed to go find You know, uh, something to help to take the business to the next level.
Like, how did you all find, you know, Randy and, and four level coach and, and, and what was the, you know, what, what was the state of the business before that, and then what were you looking for and what kind of lured you in and, and kind of what was that impact that it made?
Uh, we were at a point, I guess, in our business where it didn't feel like it was worth being in business anymore. Like it was so stressful. We weren't making any money. Uh, Chantel was having meltdowns constantly,
almost daily. Yeah. So it was through the pandemic, which was a hard time for everyone in construction anyway, we came across our very first terrible client experience, which was really hard for me. And, um, It dragged on, but like, yeah, it just felt, I was like, you know, for the amount of money we're making, I could go and find a different job. That's much less stressful. I'd be home at 5 30. Like I wouldn't have to worry in the evenings or the weekends.
Like there are better things we could do with our lives for the amount of money and like for the stress that we're currently going through. And so Jack was looking, I think, around and.
I was like, okay, we gotta do something different here. I was looking around online, found Randy, a four level coach, started contacting him, getting chatting with him, and I just liked everything that he was doing, like this platform. And I liked that it was, you know, like tangible stuff that we had like
implement
that we could implement right away. It wasn't like a motivational thing. I didn't need motivation. I just need someone to tell me what do I need to do? What are the next steps here? This is where we're at in our business. This is the mess we're in. How do we get out of it?
And I think anyone looking at us at that point, it still looked like a great business.
Yeah.
Like it's still, we were producing really beautiful cottages and like, but it was just the internal aspect of it was so bad. It was just basic. It was just the two of us. It's weird.
Just hired her first employee to help but we didn't even really know what to do with her We're just like we know we need help But we're not sure the best way to sort of and she's still with us now and we always thank her for sticking it out Because like we really threw you into the mess and didn't you and her role has changed three times, but I think we've nailed it now. And, um, yeah.
And when we met Randy, like we weren't even using QuickBooks, we never tracked our finances, you know, at the end of the year where we did taxes, that's sort of when we found out how it was going. Um, Jeff was making a decent salary. I was being paid so poorly. And, um, It was, yeah, like Rami was like, okay, first we gotta sort out the finances. And once we did that and figured out how to charge and what we needed to charge in order to hire help so that Jeff could get off the job sites.
Um, that made a huge difference. So that's where we started. And then, and it all went from there. And we were pretty dedicated to taking like the little consistent actions every time. And sometimes it felt really hard and I did melt down a lot. Cause it can be really daunting when you're like, Oh my gosh, there's so much we need to overhaul. Um, but we still like would set our vials for the quarter. And just plod away at it.
And it's pretty crazy when you look back and realize how far you've come. I remember after the first year writing down everything that we'd accomplished and I was like, holy crap. And it didn't affect the bottom line until like two years later, but it was, it was cool to see like, wow, we've, we've done so much and it didn't feel like that much in the moment. It's just like little bits consistently.
Man, it, it, it just listening to you talk, it, it feels like there was like this, like this, this transformation for not only the business, but your, yourselves personally. Oh,
yeah.
Yeah.
It really was. It was, uh, well, it's not easy to be a mom either when you're crying all the time. Like it was, it was hard. It was affecting, there's no way as entrepreneurs with a, like a small business that it can't affect your personal life. So it was. Makes a massive difference.
Dealing with young kids at home, plus all this stress. Yeah. It's, it's a lot, for sure. I hear ya.
Yeah, so now it's, uh, we took our first vacation last year where neither of us did any work or took any work calls for a whole week. Nice. And that was really exciting. And, uh. Yeah,
we're definitely starting to see it now. Like after a couple of years of just, you know, one little bite at a time, plugging away at it, just working away at it. And now we're starting to see the, the fruits of our labor, which is great.
That's awesome. I mean, uh, you know, I know, uh, you know, Randy, the thing I really like about him and, and, and four level is just the, the focus on the financials. And he, you know, I think he's got a claim that like, he'll come in and help you find at least like 50, 000 or something like that, like immediately. And. You know, it's, it's, it's so important that people understand their numbers and understand, you know, cashflow.
I mean, cashflow is, is, is the single, you know, number one thing that will, that will kill a construction company. If you don't manage it, you know, over time, as you take on more projects and the projects get larger, the dollars are getting larger in the cashflow, but also the liabilities and being able to kind of manage that. And I, and I love, you know, just how in tune he is and how that is where he starts. I mean, that's, that's kind of the same with job tread.
You know, when, when, when we built this out, like instead of focusing on all the, all the project management features and, and, and scheduling and all that, it's like, man, like if, if we're not going to make any money on this job, what is the point in scheduling it? Like let's make sure we understand the numbers. And so I think Randy and I have, I've always connected on that and, uh, you know, it's, it sounds like, I mean, not, you know, not even using QuickBooks.
I mean, I, I hear it all the time. So many business owners are, are, are running, you know, their business thinking that, you know, they're just kind of tracking it in Excel and we'll sort of figure something out at tax time. You never really know. And it's like, man, like you got to have the right systems and those right foundations put in place to enable the financial tracking. Otherwise you're, you're flying blind, you know? And so I think it sounds like that was like.
Probably a really big transition for you all, but that started to give you visibility, which in turn gave you more comfort and understanding of, hey, here are the key, you know, levers that we need to focus on. And, and yeah, if you're not pricing the job, right. You know, again, we're, we're, we're shooting ourselves in the foot right out of the gate.
You know, what, what is the point we're, we're doing this and it sounded like you guys were in that, that, that kind of that cycle where it's just kind of just, you're just churning and churning and churning, but not making anything, not being able to, to feel like you're growing the business. So I'm, I'm, I'm really excited. I mean, it sounds like it was a huge, huge transition for you guys to, to join, um, join Randy and his group.
Yeah, and like, you know, not to put it, but like, Job Tried also is a big reason our, our business now, we tried two other programs, and then we found Job Tried. We really liked it, and like, I think it's cool you worked with me to get the finance side for Canada locked in. Um, but it also allows what we've noticed, which we didn't see in the beginning too, is it allows Jeff and I to keep a really good eye on the business from our computer.
Cause, you know, our project coordinator, that's the only way they communicate with our clients. And then
In the trades
and the trades and then like the logs, like we can see what's going on on site. We can see how quickly we're getting back to clients, how quickly we're getting back to trades. Like we do everything from like the proposals right through we track, you know, like bills, invoices, the POs, everything is in there.
All communication files, everything.
And it also allows us when we are on vacation and tempted to check in, we can We can quickly look in, but it's made it, it is different. Our lives are completely different than a few years ago. And we, from last year to this year, it took, I think, a couple of years for the momentum to really show up, um, based on all our work. And like, we've more than doubled our revenue from last year. Our net profit is out.
Like, so those numbers too, like there's all the intangibles that we feel, but then it's also nice to see.
Yeah.
In black and light.
Net profit wasn't even in her vocabulary.
Well,
that's, that's awesome. I mean, I, I love hearing those success stories and, and, and, and Sean's all like, I, uh, I gotta tell you, I mean, I was like shocked, you know, when I saw the, the effort that you were having to put in to every single job and job trade to, to deal with. The Canadian tax situation and just how the the you know, just it it is a little bit different And so I was like man, I I don't know how she has stuck it out this long.
I'm so grateful I mean you literally taught me so much about what needed to be done and like if it wasn't through being able to work with you and and a few other Canadian builders out there like I don't think this would have happened And so I'm just like, I'm so grateful for, you know, the fact that you didn't quit on us and that you just kind of kept doing it. And, and you let me say, look, I promise it's, it's coming. We're working towards it.
You know, we definitely got really lucky to have the, uh, the, uh, the QuickBooks and Thuit developer who, who we were working with just so happened to be in, uh, in Canada and understood that, uh, that, that situation too. And, you know, again, just Just through our partnership with Intuit, the fact that we were able to get him and he could point to exactly what we needed to do and how we needed to to set it up differently.
I mean like that that made a huge impact and and you know we have had tremendous growth in Canada because of the developments that we've been able to to push out you know with your help. So so thank you for not for not giving her up on us all right. I am eternally grateful for that.
Yeah, and well, and we stuck it out because we like the operational side like our schedule that we built out That's you know over 250 points now and like the checklists and like to do's and assign Tasks and it's something we're focusing on more in 2025 is like really utilizing that as a team So like the small things don't fall through the cracks But yeah, so it it's great We stuck it out because we also love like the operations side and how well that was working for
us and we thought some of the features were really really cool and useful.
And it's great that you guys were willing to to work with us and started it instead of just being like, you know, forget it. Don't worry about it, right? So yeah, it's kudos to you guys.
I think we are one of the, uh, the only software companies that has been able to sort of crack this, you know, this, this, uh, this, this Canadian, uh, dual tax, crazy tax scheme. That's, I dunno, this really, it's, it's, it's the craziest thing I've ever seen, to be honest. But, oh, , I mean, I feel for you. I, I feel like, man, like they're, they're really making it hard for entrepreneurs over there.
Oh.
Mm.
I guess the, the trade off is like free education and healthcare, I guess, I don't know, it's just.
You must justify it somehow.
Yeah, but, uh, yeah, I don't, it, it's been a really cool journey the last few years. Um, I feel like, We wouldn't have considered ourselves business owners a few years ago. Like we were to sort of, we created jobs for ourselves and now we feel like if we can actually call ourselves business owners and we, we use all these tools and it's, and it's,
it's exciting to get out of bed in the morning when you're not just like going to a job site and you're not making any money, it's kind of hard to get out of bed. Yeah.
And you're being yelled at.
And you're getting screamed at by clients.
No, you know, and, and, and I. You know, when I reflect back on all of my, you know, starting up businesses, my entrepreneurial journey and just like talking to others, I mean, it, it truly is like a roller coaster being an entrepreneur and a business owner. And like the, you know, the, the things that get thrown your way, like you have to solve the hardest problems that nobody else is able to solve. And like, You know, I just, I like to describe it. It's like being on a rollercoaster.
I mean, it's, you got your ups, you got your downs, you know, those, those downs can get, you know, can, can get really tough and it feels like you're in a free fall and where's the bottom, when am I going to hit it? But you know, eventually you do hit it. And, you know, I, I think at the end of the day though, like, you know, it's thanks to those kind of those, those downs that, you know, when you do start to pull up and you do start to have those highs, like it makes them that much better.
And at the end of the day, you know, what, what I always encourage everyone is to just like, you know, understand this is a, this is a journey. You know, this isn't just a, you know, we're going to go from point A to point B. It's, it is a long marathon that we're having to run here. And when you can just.
Just learn to appreciate it for what it is and not let those downs get you, you know, so down and beat yourself up to the point where, you know, most people will throw in the towel and quit, you know, but I think now that you've, you've gone through that and you've come back up, it makes you appreciate even more what you have built and the success that you have created, the adversity and everything that you've gone through.
You know, you might not have that same appreciation and respect for what you've been able to accomplish. If it was, you know, just super easy. I mean, if this, if it was easy to build a business, I mean, everybody would be doing it and it, you know, but it's not, you know, and I think that's what makes, you know, those, those great business owners and entrepreneurs and those amazing companies, they're the ones that, you know, it's, it's, it's.
It's easy for, for anybody to win in a bull market when times are easy and everyone's, you know, just spending money, but you know, it's, it's the true test of a business is going through, you know, the harder markets and, and, and, and the bear, you know, times where, you know, it's, it's not easy, you know, and, and you gotta be able to weather that storm. And, you know, you all did.
And, you know, that's, that's, that I think has truly made your business that much better and that much stronger, you know, knowing that like, again, whatever's coming your way next, you're going to be able to handle it and overcome. And I just, I think all entrepreneurs need to, need to sort of, you know, understand what you're getting into.
You know, this is not going to be easy, you know, but it doesn't mean that you can't make it and finding the right people, finding the right tools, implementing the right processes, like, you know, doing these kind of these, these basic blocking and tackling is how you set yourself up for success. You know, you have to build that, that foundation to create your company off of. And, you know, I mean, again, however long it takes you to kind of get to that point.
You know, and it sounds like, you know, you went at it for several years, but you got there and, and, and now, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fairly confident you wouldn't want to go back, but, you know, again, it's, it's given you that, that, that insight and that knowledge on how do we keep growing and how do we keep building? How do we put the next level, take it to the next level one after another?
And, uh, you know, that's, that's kind of the, I hope everyone can kind of take away, you know, that from your story, because like, this is, this is exactly the story that I want people to hear is that it's not going to be easy and you are going to want to quit, but you, you know, again, like you can make those moves that you guys made and you can work your way out of this and you can build a great business.
A hundred percent agree. Yeah. It's definitely, uh, you know, the challenges are, are what actually makes your business better. Yeah. And it's. The unfortunate thing, but you definitely have to go through the challenging clients and the challenging situations for you to say like, okay, well, how are we going to do better next time? But you got to have that mindset of, you know, how are we going to do better?
Yeah. If you're just sticking it out, you know, one shitty client at a time, this is, it's not going to work, but you got to have that mindset of, okay, how do we do better next time? Yeah. I think all, like we're always
thinking, okay, what's the lesson? Even if it doesn't really seem like. It, there was something preventable or we could have changed it all the time. We're like, okay, but could we, or like, how would we go about it differently? Like, is there something we would have done differently? And yeah, what's the lesson.
And also when it's going through like those hard parts, cause even in the good times, even when your business is like on the way up, there's those months that are super hard and we're just, we're just like, Hey, what's the next thing we need to do? What's put one foot in front of the other until we get out of it. And, uh, And then, although I, you don't feel this way. Sometimes even now though, I'm like, Oh, things are going so well. What's the thing that's going to happen?
And then as you said, I have to remind myself that it doesn't matter what's going to happen. We'll get through it. Like we've learned enough and that's like gather up the wisdom as you, as you keep going and then, and then you get through anything.
Yeah, that's good. Nope. Do you guys, uh, I assume, are you setting goals for yourself now? Do you have, you know, annual goals? You know, do you create that budget for the business?
Um, This time of year going to the new year, I map out our ideal year going forward. Um, last year we did just over 3 million and, and originally we set the goal for six this year and then we blew past it. We. We're almost at 7. 5, so we're seeing how much of a stretch goal we're going to set for next year.
Um, I'll map out the year and so, yeah, and we're also leveling up and forcing ourselves to sort of say no to the smaller projects that we don't want to do anymore to make room for the bigger and better projects. But we have a hard time not wanting to, to grow and do better and get bigger and, and just see. See where it goes. So that's awesome.
Is there a you know, like a five or ten year plan or what? What's what's the bigger vision? Like what do you you know, what do you ultimately hope to do with the business?
Randy definitely has some ambitious goals for us.
Oh,
yeah, like it's He wants us to like 10X our company and he's fully invested and fully convinced. And like, we're starting at first, we were like, this is crazy. There's no way. And now that we, we look at it and we look at that number, what it would look like. And we kind of worked backwards and like broke it all down. And he kind of went through it with us and was like, this is what it could look like now where you guys are now in your business. Basically, you're just multiplying it.
Cause like we've have all these systems and people and things in place. It's just like now we just got to multiply it. And it's kind of crazy to see cause now you're like, Oh, well, you know what? That does look feasible. It didn't look that crazy.
We didn't, it seemed crazy to get to where we are now. So like, okay, well let's just trust it and keep going.
Yeah, I think this was our 10 year goal was to get to seven and a half million or around there.
So
did it in two years. It's awesome.
I love hearing that.
So our goal, our bigger goals is like time. We don't want to have to spend much time in the business. We sort of want to put people in place so that we're overseeing it. And maybe like Jeff has other business ideas, so maybe that's what will happen. And we had two boys, so Jeff's third generation builder, maybe it will go to fourth generation, but if not, The goal is definitely to get it to a point where we could sell it if it's not going to be taken over by one of our kids.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
So, so I'm curious, and I'm always, uh, it's always interesting to get to, to interview, you know, uh, you know, spouses working together. And, and, and I'd just like to ask, like, so, so what's it like, you know, with the, the work life balance? Like, do you, do you, you know, do, do you talk? Talk shop at the kitchen, you know, dinner table. Like how does, how does it kind of, how do you manage the, uh, the, the, the, the personal versus the, the work?
I mean, yeah. Oh yeah. At 10 30 at night, you ask me, I'm trying to sleep, ask me questions. What about this? I mean, what should we do tomorrow for this? And, uh, it's, I mean, it is our life, right? Like the business is our life. It's what provides for our kids and everything. And it's all we do all day. We work in the, like I work right here at this desk. And she works right here, and it's, I don't know, it's We work really well together. You work really, yeah, you're opposites.
So it works out well.
Yeah, I don't know. It's, uh, we like it. I think now it's at the point we honestly couldn't imagine doing anything else or living any other way. Um, I have to remind myself sometimes to stop talking about business. Uh, now we're getting into the holidays, so trying to like shut down and just enjoy some time with family for a couple weeks. Um, I, I don't know. Definitely do bug Jeff sometimes when he's trying to sleep. But I don't know, in his life, it's, there's no line.
That's just one is the way you live.
I love it. I mean, and that's, uh, I would say I can, I can very much, uh, resonate with that and, uh, you know, it's, it's just so awesome, though, and, and I can tell how happy and passionate you all are, like, working together on this and, like, just take so much pride in, like, you know, what you're creating for your family, for your kids, this, this legacy that you're going to be able to leave behind.
I mean, I, I think at the end of the day, like, that's, that's the greatest thing that, you know, that, that you could really ever ask for. And, you know, it's, uh, it, it, I think a lot of people, you know, you, you see all the stories where it's like, they try to involve family and work together and it just ends up in this, you know, huge catastrophe, you know, just, you know, catfighting all day long. And, you know, I, I get to work with my dad here every day.
I mean, he's, he's my CFO and I used to get asked, you know, kind of, Still get asked, but like, you know, earlier on when I got asked, what's it like working with your dad? And it's like, well, it's kind of like the 80, 20 rule. Like, you know, 80 percent of the time we're, we love each other. 20 percent of the time we're going for the jugular, you know, but I think over time, you know, we, it's, you know, it's really more like, you know, I call it 95, five or even, even, even better than that.
And when you can really learn. To appreciate the opportunity to work with your family. I mean, I think that is the number one thing for me is that like, I get to work with my dad every single day, you know, now, you know, I like that I get to be his boss, but you know, it's, it's, it's something that just like, I, at the end of the day, like if you can make it work, it's, it's awesome. And it's the greatest thing ever getting to come into work with your family and doing this together.
And I love how it creates. That culture, you know, for everyone else to, to, to sort of feel like a family, you know, I feel like they're part of that extended family there, you know, now, you know, on the same, same token. I mean, I tried to get my wife to help me early on in job tread and, and she definitely did. She came on and said, look, you know, I'll make some calls and help you do a little bit of sales. You know, I think she did it for a week or two.
It's like, you know, this isn't quite my thing. You know, I, I, I want to help you, but I don't think this is right. And, uh, you know, I was like, all right, no worries whatsoever. I appreciate, you know, even, even the thought. And, you know, I think for some people it's, it's just not meant to be, you know, you got to make sure people are really passionate and they're in the right roles, doing the right things.
You know, it sounds like you all have a very clear, you know, separation of, of responsibilities. You know, Jeff focusing on the estimating, the kind of managing the, the, the crews overseeing everything, you know, Chantal focusing on the finances, the office, the, you know, kind of everything, you know, in, in, in, in that part.
And so, you know, that, that does, it's nice that you've got that clear sort of, you know, very, uh, set roles and responsibilities where you compliment each other, you know, and I think that's where it doesn't always work. If you got two people trying to, trying to do the same thing or, you know, kind of overlapping, um, But, yeah, I love that you all have been able to figure out how to make it work and, you know, it seems like things are going really well for you at this point.
I'm, I know it's not always that way. Yeah. I can only imagine having two young kids. I've got a, uh, I have a seven year old daughter and a six year old son now. They're, they're 14 months apart. So, you know, I definitely know what, what it's like, uh, especially when they're, when they're younger going through the, the very challenging times. But, um, yeah, it seems, seems like you guys have got it figured out now. Yes,
most of the time. Sometimes it's still a mess, but that's okay. Yeah. Yeah, and we actually just dad does Um, a lot of recite prep still and works with us So we get to be with his dad often and his grandfather makes us sort of those Muskoka chairs I don't know what you guys would call them Adirondack chairs, baby, or you know those lake house Chair that goes so he takes scrap wood from the sites and creates chairs.
We give them to our clients as gifts and it's awesome It is the family family part is really important to us.
Yeah, it's everyone's life. Yeah the whole family They're all involved some some way or somehow.
Yeah, so in wrapping up here I'm kind of the the last thing I'd like to ask you. I mean like when When you think back just about this entire journey that you've been on, you know, what, what advice would you give to others who are somewhere on their own journey earlier on trying to, you know, figure things out, going through those same challenges?
Like, is there anything that, you know, really sticks out that like, you, you, you know, now that you wish you would have known earlier, or just, you know, kind of any, you know, what, what would be the, the best advice that you might be able to leave for others?
Um, I would, I would say get help. Join a builder group or something, or, you know, like we did, like we got involved with Randy's builder group. Um, and then that way, you can kind of hear from other builders and their challenges because they're all going through the same thing and you know, you're going to succeed a lot quicker and you're going to relieve a lot of the stress and headaches by like hearing what all the other builders have to say.
And you know, maybe you do differently in your business, no matter where you are. Um, I think that was, I wish I would've did that. 10 years ago, and it would have probably, we would have probably been a lot bigger, faster and wouldn't had to go through as many struggles.
I don't know that they made us pretty great, but
the
mentorship, we would for sure not be where we are without it. So yes, and like actually implement, like do the work sort of, okay, what's the first thing I got to fix? And then, and just, it's going to feel overwhelming. It will feel so daunting because there's so much to change.
But. Like little bit by little bit, just keep taking those steps forward and, and every improvement sort of gives you that hope that it can be that much better and, and go from there and make sure, make sure you're not letting those like challenges or issues or negative experiences go by without extracting every lesson you can from it. Cause that, that is how we've gotten to the business that we're at now.
Yeah. And I think a key is having someone, if you can, Get somebody into your business that is more like, like Chantal is like a driving force For the business side of things like if you can get somebody in whether it's in the office or whatever that can help you input like implement systems and things like that and you know set up job tread or like You know these these tasks that most people don't have time for if they're on the site every day That's going to be a huge needle mover for sure.
Yeah, that's a very, very sound, awesome advice. I appreciate you guys, uh, you know, sharing that and, you know, thanks for, thanks for coming and spending the time to share your story. I mean, like I said, I think that this is, this is case in point. This is the story that. Entrepreneurs need to hear and see that you can build a very, very successful business.
When you make the right moves, you put in the effort, you implement, you know, the things that you're learning from, from mentors, from coaching groups, from, from whoever it may be, like just build the right team, set up the right processes, do by, do right by your clients, you know, take care of them, focus on the client experience. And, you know, again, you can have a very, very successful career building a construction contracting business.
You know, I think you all are, uh, you know, doing a great job showcasing that and, you know, leading by example. I, I really appreciate, you know, everything that, that, that you all have done for just even the job tread community and for us and for helping us continue to improve. You know, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's one of my favorite saying is, is, is a rising tide lifts all boats.
And I think this is how, you know, when, when you find the right people, when you build your own network of people who are going through the same thing, like, you know, you can help each other and you can get better every day, day by day. And that's what it takes.
So, you know, just thank you all for, for, for being such great leaders out there in the community for, for, for driving and building a great business that you've got, and I'm really excited to, uh, to, to see you all both at a job, TreadConnect in January.
Yeah, it'll probably, hopefully be a little bit warmer than, uh, than, than what it might be like up there, but, you know, it should be a really awesome event, and I just, I appreciate you all, uh, again, thank you for coming on and sharing your story.
Thank you so much, BX.
Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your journey along the way. Don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review. And as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact us at builderstories. com. We'd love to hear from you. I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember, every builder has a unique story. Keep building yours.