[upbeat music] Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success, and the lessons learned along the way. I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry. Welcome to Builder Stories. [music ends] Welcome back, everybody. Today, I am excited to be here with Wes Crocket. He is the owner of Mahogany Builders located in Chicago, Illinois.
I'm very excited to have you on the show today. Welcome to Builder Stories, Wes. Thanks so much, Eric. Appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity to share my story. Yeah. So why don't you give us, uh, a little bit- a little bit of background, who you are, how you got into construction, and, uh, what's- what's Mahogany do? Yeah. Absolutely. Happy to. So, um, about 15 or so years ago, around, uh, around 2011, I was in grad school, uh, studying organizational psychology.
I always just wanted to run a business and run a team just like my dad used to. He was the best leader that I ever knew. And to see people, the way they revered him, the way they followed him was something that I always wanted to- to do. I wanted to be that guy, just like my dad was. And I didn't really care about what industry that I actually went into as long as I could run
a team and go towards a goal. And so, I studied organizational psychology, which is kind of a weird thing that not a lot of people have- have heard about. And I- I got a master's in this subject, and it's- it's sort of the- the study of people at work and how to put the right people in the right positions to get the most out of them, uh, designing selection tests and understanding what makes a g- a good fit for a role within a company.
And so, I was at the tail end of my- my master's in 2011 when my wife, who was in inti- in interior design school at the time was working as a nanny for the owner of a remodeling company and needed to do an internship for them. So she started working, uh, as an intern for this remodeling company. Uh, he, the owner of the company, was kind of like a lot of owner-operators out there, uh, who was hitting a limit of- of his effectiveness as an owner-operator.
You sort of hit a limit where you go, "Okay, I- I can only do so much," and- and, uh, needed to be able to do more if he was gonna grow the company. And he had an office manager exit at the time and needed some extra help. And so, I kinda raised my hand and said, "Hey, I'll- I'll come in and do some office management stuff for you." And that was 2011, and the story really grew- grew from there.
I started working for Mahogany while I was, while I was still in school, and I've never really gone to work anywhere else. So like I said, when I got to Mahogany Builders, the owner, uh, Matt Lederer, was, you know, wearing every single hat in the business, like so many owner-operators do, right? Running- running projects during the day, doing estimates at night, doing all of his accounting and
stuff. And- and at night, we were at the time using a combination of QuickBooks Desktop and Excel to do everything that we did. In 2011, the- the construction software landscape was, uh, barren, like a desert, right? Um, very few things out there for actual remodelers. And so, I came in and sort of took over the accounting, and I took over the- the, um, you know, uh- uh, the sort of human resources part of it and decided like, "Hey, we're gonna expand.
We're gonna take sales off of your plate, too." And so, we hired a salesperson, and we went from doing, uh, about $700,000 or $800,000 in- in business around 2011 to- to, we, in three years, between then and 2015, more than doubled our business. We started doing about two and a half million dollars after just sort of splitting off and hiring a- a salesperson to just focus on those things, um, uh, full time. And at that time, we sort of went upmarket a little bit.
You know, didn't do as many sort of, uh, uh, lower-end remodels and small, and started doing, uh, higher-end remodels. Hired a designer then because we- we needed that internal capacity, uh, and, uh, and found ourselves being sort of a design-build company. And it was around 2014, 2015 in that area is that Matt and I, uh, looking for software packages that- that might work for us. Um, didn't find anything that was out there, and him...
He has a background in software, uh, uh, project management, and I, um, uh, it's just something I guess that you could say I do as a hobby. I'm just really into- into technology and software solutions to things. Him and I decided to make our own system. So in- in 2015, we spent six-plus months designing the front end of a construction management software platform that we're... Our company's called Mahogany Builders. We lovingly called it the MB5000 sorta jokingly. [laughs]
And, uh, you know, we- we- we, uh, it's a database in- in the end, right? And so, uh, we, you know, him and I understood database management, so we made a couple of modules for timekeeping, a couple modules all based on sort of a contact structure, right?
Uh, and then we hired a software developer to do everything that we designed, every module we designed, every screen, every output that we designed, had a guy do it for us, and spent an arm and a leg, right, uh, doing it 'cause software developers are- are expensive. But, uh, what we had after a year was a system that we could, that run our business on.
It was awesome. From about 2020, 2015, 2016, to about 2018, '19, it did everything for us, all of our estimates and- and- and, uh, timekeeping and all that stuff. And- and we sort of had dreams and aspirations of becoming like JobTred one day. We were like, "Oh, this is awesome. If- if we do it this way, everyone will love it." I mean, the truth is, super rudimentary software, uh, j- only applicable to- to our own business case and not the many business cases that- that
are out there, right? Sort of based for a tiny materials company like we were at the time. And we sorta hit the limits of that system. As we grew as a company, we sort of grew out of it and just had to- to make a decision in, like, 2018, 2019 of, like, "Are we gonna go spend another $50,000, $75,000 paying a software developer to go make this bigger into- into what we actually have? Or are we gonna go..."... try and, uh, uh, and, and go with one of the now more available
software, uh, packages out there. And so we decided to, uh, abandon and, uh, our, our lovingly built system, and try out, um, another, uh, large, uh, construction software, uh, management sort of platform, of which, uh, uh, with which you are quite familiar. Did it for about six months, decided that wasn't, it wasn't really for us, uh, and, and went back to
using the combination of... Now, this is when QuickBooks Desktop stopped being supported on Macs, and we had to now move from QuickBooks Desktop to online, was not gonna happen, and we started using, uh, Zero for all of our accounting. And I built from 2019 to about 2022, 2023 a great, uh, ecosystem of different softwares, using Float for our scheduling, using Zero for our project management software, using, uh, Gusto for payroll, things like that that all sorta
integrated to- together. But it was in the end a patchwork of systems. And, uh, ended up, uh, uh, finding JobTred when we were at a, uh, conference in 2023. I, I think it was the 40 Under 40 con... Some... It was, it was one of those, those, uh, big conferences, and I mean, the rest was history for us. We really took off once, once we, once we learned about and once we really started, uh, getting
into JobTred software. It helped us be way, way, way more organized and focused on, on GP than we've ever been able to do before. And so, you know, it really... It, it allowed us to do even more. So over that time, we went from being about a $2.5 million business to we're doing about 3.5, 3.6 right now. We expanded our team over that time from, you know, just a project manager, a designer and, and a salesperson, to having a
four-person sales team. We've got a design department of two designers now. We've got a production department with 10, uh, uh, 10 on our... Uh, 10 crewmen, c- carpenters or internal labor for us, a project manager, a production manager, and so we've... You know, this thing has just sorta steadily built and built and built over time. And in the middle of that somewhere, Matt, uh, who, who is a, a, a bit older than
me. Uh, he's a Gen X-er. I'm, I'm a Millennial, so he's not that much, but he, uh, decided that he wanted to ride off into the sunset at some point, like a lot of owners do. Uh, and, uh, him and I put together a, a sort of a transition package that we're in the middle of right now. Uh, and, you know, uh, it's, it's a wonder- one- wonderful business that has been the pride of my entire
life to build. And, and the people in my company are absolutely wonderful, and I, I, I truly enjoy the business that I, that I run. If I won the lottery tomorrow, there is no shot I would do anything different. I would wake up and do the exact same thing I do every day. So, um, sorry for that long soliloquy, but that's sort of- No. [laughs] ... our entire story and it, and it, you know, really is, like, software-focused. This has been my entire sort of story, really.
Yeah, that's, that's so awesome. It's funny, 'cause right before we, uh, we g- we started recording here, you were just like, "Man, like, I feel like you and I, uh, you know, on, on paper we should, uh..." You know, you're just such a similar story, we'd be best friends. Mm-hmm. And I mean, man, yeah. Just, j- just hearing you tell that, I mean, that's, that's literally the same kind of
situation. I mean, I didn't, you know, take over and kinda work my way up entirely, you know, from, from the ground up, and, and I wasn't with the construction company that I took over just for a year where I built out the first version of this. But, like, man, I, that's, it's awesome that, you know, you, you literally have been able to, you know, to, to grow with this thing and really make a very meaningful impact.
But you've risen up from the very bottom and, and now are, you know, taking over and gonna, you know, just o- own the whole thing. That's super cool, man. Congrats. Yeah. Th- thank you, I appreciate it. It's been, it's been kind of a, a long and weird journey that if you asked me 15 years ago if I would've ever been a remodeler, like, what? What are you, what are you talking about? But now, uh, you know, I think it was Scott Galloway that said, like, i- if... You, you don't...
Not every, like, kid, I'm paraphrasing, like, needs to grow up and be the astronaut they thought they were gonna be. Like, sometimes, go find something, go get good at, and the passion will follow. And, and that is- Yeah ... absolutely what's happened for me.
I, I am deeply passionate about remodeling and, and especially, like, a- about the Chicago market and sort of our place in the market and what defines our customer and, and re- and really drilling down on that so, so we can provide the best service to the people that we are best
matched for as a company. Like, that stuff really excites me, and I've, I've been lucky this entire time to be able to focus on that part of the business while I have a great partner who is, who, who is sort of the face of our company, who is, uh, out there doing a lot of sales for us, while I can work on these sort of backend systems and processes that, that- Yeah ... m- that grow a company up. You know what I mean? That, that give us bigger clothes to be able to grow into.
And we've consistently done that over many different iterations. I, I've used the example like a spider sort of molting into new- [laughs] ... skin. Uh, like, and just b- uh, growing and growing. It's been a wonderful journey to be able to do that with, with a partner who is sort of the, the yin to my yang, right? He, he... You know, his, his weaknesses are my strengths and my
weaknesses are his strengths. And it's been a, a, a wonderful symbiotic relationship that there's no way that we would have been able to grow to the size, level, stature, reputation that we are right now as a company without both of those two sort of unique skillsets. So, um, you know, it's an ongoing challenge of, like, what, what I'm gonna do when, when Matt is no longer there and sort of continues his ride off into the
sunset, which he's, uh, doing right now. But, you know, it's an open, open question. I've got... Joined Remodelers Advantage. That was a huge thing for me as a business, probably around 2016, when him and I first started those discussions. Um, I discovered them at a conference, like all good things that I seem to find
in, in remodeling. And joined a group of, of remodelers that, um, you know, you work through different groups in Remodelers Advantage, but I've, I've been in a group called, uh, Dorado now for five or six years. They're, uh, a tremendous group of 10 other remodelers from across the country that have really stayed together in this group, where a lot of groups ha- maybe have a bit more transience,
uh, um, i- in. But [laughs] you wanna talk about imposter syndrome, man, I've got guys like Jeff Titus who was the, the Impact Award winner, um, for, for Remodelers Advantage last year in our group. You've got guys like John Ford in there who, no matter how successful you feel like you are as, as a business owner, you look at guys like that and they're just like, "You're on a different level, man." It's something that, you know, you continually strive for.
You know, you put yourself in positions around people who do things better than you do or, to, to strive to, and you end up rising i- uh, uh, as well. And that's so true for me. I don't know where I would have... W- where I'd be right now if I didn't have that group of people. Uh, and shout out to Doug Howard too, who's been, like, a perennial leader of our group, who I know you know. Doug's absolutely fantastic.
Yep. So yeah, Remodelers Advantage was transformative to our, uh, to, to our company, for sure. Uh, that's awesome. I mean, again, it, it, it sounds like you've been making all the right moves from, you know, from, from early on. And, you know, obviously, the, the, the, the leadership that, that you've, you know, brought to the company has been tremendous.
And, you know, I think at the end of the day, you know, it, it, it is, it's all about assembling the right team, getting the right people on the bus, right people in the right roles, and then you can figure out, you know, how and where to drive that bus together. And so, you know, it, it, it sounds like, you know... A- a- and I'm a real big proponent of like, "Look, you know, find a partner, find somebody who will
also have that same, you know, level of skin in the game." You know, at the end of the day, it's, it's somebody to sort of, you know, share the, the, the, the burdens that, you know, that, that come with, you know, owning
a business and managing it. And, you know, at the end of the day, the buck stops with you, but having that partner, somebody who, you know, again, you guys can divide and conquer, get everybody who's focused and passionate about doing their role in that right seat, and, and that's, that's how you build a great business. Totally agree. So, I mean, uh, I know this is about Builder Stories, but do you have the same thing at, at Job Tread? Do you have people you feel like you rely on in that way?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's my core team. It's, it's the people that, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we... Our, our, our goal is to keep the organization as flat as possible, you know, but, you know, at the end of the day, like, each kind of team, you know, they, they, they do. They, they have their leaders, they, you know, but, but hopefully, you know, we, we want to bring people on that, that everyone, you know, feels ownership.
They feel like they're, you know, responsible for, for their own role, their own responsibility. They're passionate about it. You know, they're gonna do whatever it takes, they're gonna work well, collaborate with others. But like, it's all about assembling that team of people so that, you know, you as, as, as the, as the head honcho, you're not having to like, you know, again, play firefighter every single
day. You've got the people in place that you can trust to deal with those, you know, complex situations, those challenges that come up. You know, obviously that doesn't mean you're not gonna get involved and, and help out and, and, and play that same, you know, part that you need, but like, you know, it's great when you can trust those people around you. I feel like I learned a long time ago that there's nothing that I, I can per...
You know, you hit a limit as an owner-operator and I hit a limit as an owner too, that there's only so much that you, you can do and be effective at at one time. And so, you have to take that leap, find good people, trust those people, get out of their way, and let them do their jobs. You know, I think that that's, that was really important. You know, and, and respecting, uh, the opinions of those people who are maybe lowest on the, on, on the totem pole or, or in the front line of your company.
My dad always told... He, he was a, uh, regional, senior regional manager for Men's Warehouse when I was a kid, and managed hundreds and hundreds of people, and would tell me that every time he would go to a new Men's Warehouse store to figure out, you know, what's going on here, w- he would always go to the tailors in the back of the shop first.
And that was, that was a lesson that stuck with me my entire life, that the people who are really at the front lines, maybe somewhere in the background, I guess, like a tailor is in, in a sewing shop in the back of a Men's Warehouse, those would be the first people he would go to say, "Hey, how are things going here? What, what needs to be improved upon?" And so, that's a lesson that I, that I've taken with me and sort of applied to my own management style.
And, and so th- the opinions of the way that those guys who are in the front line in our company, uh, what they think should change, how they think things are going is so important to, to me as a manager. And, uh, you know, to, to your great point, a minute ago, like, when you have something good, something nice, uh, you take care of it.
And so, it's been so important for us to put in systems and, and processes that make sure that those people in the front line feel heard, respected, and, and that this is a place that we, you know, we want to be the employer of choice. We want, we want there to be no reason why anybody would want to work anywhere else once you work with Mahogany Builders. And that goes, that goes both ways, right?
I want to both make sure that, that, that, uh, we are providing a great environment for them to be in, but that this company fits their story of their life in such a way that, that they can progress to a, to a level that, that gets to, that helps them realize those goals that they have for themselves in their life.
So, I mean, just continuing to, to, uh, be an employer that keeps employees around and keeps them, y- you know, uh, it's really, really expensive to, to, uh, i- if you're a revolving door to try and retrain, and we're very lucky that we don't have that at Mahogany Builders. Yeah. When you have something nice, you take care of it. And so, that's... I, I like the people [laughs] who work for us very, very much here.
So, we try and do everything we can to make this, like I said, be the employer of choice in our market. That's, that's awesome, man. You know, I, I... We, we've got a saying here that, that I, that I really love. It's, May the best idea always win. You know? And, and, and, and the goal is, you know, again, i- i- when you hire great people, you know, hopefully, they are, you know, s- have the skillset, have a trait, have something where, you know, again, they are the best at that.
That's why you put them in that role. They're better than you, like, you know- Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah ... and you need everybody to feel comfortable speaking up and like, "Hey, this is why you're here." Like, "We want, you know, your thoughts, your advice, your guidance." Like, "Tell us what's working, what's not working, what ideas." You know, like, hopefully, they, they take ownership in trying to solve
problems. And, you know, again, at the end of the day, whenever someone comes up with an idea that is like, you know, gets that support and gets the backing of like, "Yeah, let's go do that," like, they, they want to implement it even more because, you know, they, they came up with it. Right.
And it's like, you know, so many times, you know, people feel scared to speak up, you know, because it's like, "Oh, well, I'm not in charge," or, "I'm not the boss," or they're gonna think bad or they're not gonna like it. It's like, "Look, at the end of the day, who cares who came up with it? Let's, let's, let's debate the, the merit of e- each and every idea." Like, where it came from really doesn't matter. The, the question is, is that the right idea? Is that the best idea?
And let's move forward with it. Totally agree. That jogs two things loose in my head when you said that. One is that like, I've probably interacted with...... at least two dozen people from, from JobTread through my own interactions with you, through customer support, uh, through my success manager but then at, at Connect, and I gotta say that everyone there seems to well-bought into the mission there. And that they, everyone has like, this sort of intangible passion in
here about the product itself. The, the webinar I, I was in yesterday, um, uh, tha- that had to do with to-dos, th- the guy who was putting it on, God, I forget his name right now, he was absolutely fabulous and the passion that he exuded for your product when you weren't looking to, you know, to for lack of a better term, that's all you can ask of, of people, right, to, to carry that passion with them into, into those interactions where you are not
actually gonna be observing them or, or directly managing them, right? Um, and, eh, you know, uh, and we have, uh, a... You should, you know, the other thing that had jogged loose in my head is that you don't, as the leader of your company, need to be the number one expert top of the, uh, f- food chain of, of every process that you have. Like, I, I have a project manager who works for my company who has forgotten more about remodeling than I will ever know in my life.
A guy who came to us 15 years ago after already running his own remodeling company for, you know, 20 years at, at that point, right? The guy, he, he, he knows more than I ever will. So when it comes to production, he's the king. I, I, I defer to him in almost every situation out there and if you don't have somebody on your team that you look at like that, and you go, "That guys knows more than I do about the things," and you're, you probably should have one of those, right?
The, my dad used to say, "The smartest person surrounds himself with those smarter than he." Right? I feel like that's also been key to this, that everyone in a leadership position in my company can do their job whether it's design or sales, uh, or, or project management better than I could and, and, and if you don't respect that, then, uh, you know, it's, it's definitely a lesson to be learned there.
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, and I, and I think, you know, as, as, as leaders, again, our, our, our job isn't necessarily to solve every single problem. You know, our, our job is to continually, you know, motivate and inspire and, and make sure that everyone's bought into, into the mission, the vision, the core values. Like, it's about being that leader that, you know, attracts other people who want to join the winning team and want, you know, and share that level of passion.
Like, I, I, I really, I genuinely believe like, you can't pay people any amount of money to, to, to just be passionate and to care. Like, they have to have that from within. Like, that's gotta be, you know, that, that fire in their belly. Like, they either have it or they don't. You know? And that- and that's like, that's one of the things that we're looking for, you know, in an interview. I mean, and I believe you can just feel it.
It's like the energy of someone, like, y- y- you just feel that being around them. Are they excited? Are they passionate? Like, will they, you know, represent your brand and your company when you're not around? Just like you said.
Yeah. Well, it's within, within a few questions of an interview and listening to how someone comports themself and the energy w- with which they bring and, and speak and the passion that you can hear in their voice, y- you can almost tell within the first few minutes of an interview with someone whether they have that. And that's, that's such an intangible and it's difficult for me to like, ab- uh, you know, uh, objectively compare one person to the other if you're in an interview process.
Yeah. But, but you as a hiring manager kinda just know in your soul when, when you meet somebody who has that. You know? I'm reading right now and I, uh, I bet you have too, a great book called The 21, uh, Irrefutable Laws of Leadership by John Maxwell. And it's what, I mean, if you haven't, you just said three chapters of it in, in, in your last, in your last statement. I mean, it, leaders are, are constantly looking to find
great people. You're, you're constantly, you, you, you know in your soul what those qualities are, those, those intangible qualities that you look for in someone. For me, it's like, it's, it's, it's loyalty, it's energy, it's attitude. Oh God, attitude is just so important as it, as it's so, it, it just dictates the way you, you, eh, every situation that you, that you have and, and the way
you tackle it. Right? Everyone has those intangibles that they look for in people and, and always being on the lookout for people who meet those values 'cause it's, it's rare that you find someone. And I've got at least two examples in my company of people who I have met in my sort of networking activities out in the world who, um, I looked at and said, "I, I don't know where you fit, but your values fit for this
company." And that happens so infrequently to find somebody who has those same values that, eh, you know, I, I decided to plug both of those people and who are still long term employees, successful employees of, of our company right now. So if you're somebody who is looking at somebody who is in a job adjacent to, to yours but, uh, you think might be a good fit because of their values, I, I'm here to tell you like,
take that, take that leap. If you find someone who truly looks at the world like you do, um, that's, you know, uh, it, it's been really key to our success as a business, is finding those good people and plugging them in where you see fit.
Um, you know, but beyond that, like the, and the 21 laws, like, you, you know, you sort of touched on people, uh, follow people who they, they see as being better leaders than themselves as well, and I think that's also a really important, uh, i- important point. But managing the m- the, the timing, those sort of intangibles around, um, momentum, i- as well, like, eh, th- those
have... It's a great book. If you haven't read it or if you're a listener right now, if you haven't read that book, that one is a one, uh, to, to pick up right now. And that's the, The 21 Laws of Irrefutable Leadership? Meh, I, uh, the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. I've got- Okay ... a, um, a one of my production managers mainly speaks Polish and I wanted to take this leadership journey with him as he just got promoted to a position where he's
in charge of people for, for the first time and I said, "Let's do this together." So I found they have Polish language copies, they have, they have, uh, uh, you know, uh...... the Spanish language copies of it, so if you... You know, I- I highly suggest you and your team reading a book like that together. And we've- we've gone through and digested the- the- the chapters, sort of like a book club, right? And talked about what works and what doesn't work, what might work on our team.
Um, and it has made both of us better leaders and more attentive leaders. And it has, it's been one of those things on my mind lately, that it has me evaluating everyone I see around me who is in- in a leadership role and how they sort of, uh, command the- the room and- and how they lead their teams. And- and there's, you know, really a huge difference between somebody who is a manager and someone who is a leader, right? Um, there's a great metaphor in the book about- about, um, uh, managers
can steer the ship. They- they- they can be at the helm of the ship and they can steer it, but only a leader can be the person who charts the course of where that ship is actually going to go. And that's something that has, uh, you know, rung in my... Uh, it has not been unrung in my head like- like a bell for- for a while. Um, yeah, sorry. I- I kind of got attracted Yeah. No, that's- that's great. I mean, John, John Maxwell, awesome. Highly recommend that as well.
You know, I- I, uh, you know, I think you're- you're so true though. Like, when- when you find great people, you know, e- e- even if, you know... You know, you gotta make sure that there is some sort of a role or when you create that role, that it is a good fit and that they're gonna... You know, y- you need that role and you can afford that role.
But, like, I've d- I've done that multiple times where we have created a role because this is a person, you know, that- that- that I have a relationship with, I've worked with before, or someone I know, you know, has worked with them. Like, th- there- There's nothing that, like, better than being able to bring somebody on your team that, like, you- you just... you already have that innate, like, trust.
Like, I know that they're gonna be here, they're gonna be loyal. You know, they will be here till the end. And i- That is so valuable to have those trusted people because, you know, otherwise, you know, when- when you start working with someone new, I mean, it does, it takes time to build that bond and to build that trust and- and to get to the point where, you know, you're, you know, you're-
you're- you're there. But, like, man, when you can just bring it in on day one- Yep ... oh, it's- it's so awesome. Yeah, I totally agree. And- and one of the guys that- that we brought in who was, uh... who- who fell into this category, uh, was and is a real estate agent in Chicago. And for us, we're a- we're a... We do high-end interior remodels, uh, typically in a lot of high-rises and things like that. And there's a ton of inventory for that in Chicago.
And when we brought on this, um, this- this salesperson who was also a real estate agent, it was great because, you know, part of the equation there, and you don't just meet my values, but hey, you might be able to bring something to this equation for us that- that we didn't have before, which is relationships with tons and tons of other real estate agents out there. And for us, from a sales perspective, that opened up a new sort of prospecting pipeline for us that we hadn't had before,
that... It- it- it increased for us the importance of not just getting business from referral from previous homeowner, uh, previous clients and- and homeowners and neighbors and things like that, but now focusing on getting leads from real estate agents in addition to designers and architects. And now we call those three, we call 'em the RAD group internally, because they've, they now...
Referrals from those three, uh, individual groups make up, like, 75% of our- of our leads in, uh, excuse- 75% of our actual closed jobs, I should say. Um, and so that was really key to us, like, uh, uh, figuring out this new group of people to be able to market to. And now it's sort of changed the way that we sell as a company. We don't do a lot of, like, traditional advertisement, not a ton of, uh, pay-per-click Google advertisements or anything like that.
We still do, uh, a little bit just to sort of, uh, uh, keep our name, uh, up there, but they represent, like, 5% of the business that we close in any year is- is somebody who came to us by way of the internet. Now, uh, you know, if you've... if that's the first place you heard of us. F- so for us, it's we're really focused on where do those real estate agents, those really high-end real estate agents who are, who are turning over million plus dollar properties, where do
they hang out? What groups are- are they in? One of our, one of our most successful marketing sort of, uh, groups that we're in is a whiskey and cigar group, um, that has turned into four major jobs for our company that, you know, it sounds like a weird expense, my accountant might- might question, uh, what you're doing being part of a- a- a whiskey and cigar group, but it's like you- you have to find those people who give you business, who refer business to you and be the places that they are.
I mean, that- that goes for homeowners too. I mean, we- we don't meet a lot of homeowners directly in those kind of groups, but, you know, you do well to go to those places where our clients are- are people who have very limited amount of time. We usually work with two busy working professionals who- who have, um, uh, money in excess of their time. And so where do people who fall into that category spend the majority of their time? A lot of it is, uh, philanthropy.
A lot of it is sort of, uh, country club, private school groups. Those have been really effective, uh, for us as well. And you- you meet one person and do a job for one person who's in a- a- a- a school group, and suddenly all of the parents now know about you. That's- that's also been another great, uh, sort of avenue of- of leads for us. But, you know, thinking outside the box, outside of the traditional sort of nary groups where you're just beating other contractors in, uh...
Rotary International has been a huge one for us. I've, I'm a third generation Rotarian. My grandfather started the Rotary Club of Schomberg-Hoffman Estates. My father and uncle were members and, uh, I was president of- of the, that club during COVID. That was an interesting one, uh, to try and run. But the Rotary Club has been another huge one for us.
Just sort of avenues where- where you meet people who spend their time, and if you go out and do good in those places and- and- and don't show up...... uh, visibly being there just to make business contacts. If you're actually there for a genuine reason to, to just meet people and be helpful, we've found that, that it- it- it has really served to inc- increase the- the value of
our- our brand, uh, out there. So, um, all of those have been really great strategies for us to find clients in- in a really difficult market right now, um, to- to try and generate leads in. Uh, and especially when you can't just throw money at pay-per-click advertising and expect us to increase the amount of jobs that we, that we win, right? It's- it's gotta be doing the hard work, as I say, going out and meeting people, shaking hands, being in those groups. Yeah. That... I mean, that's-
that's so insightful, Wes. Like, thank you for- for sharing that. I mean, I... And- and I gotta imagine, man, that- that had to have taken you years to figure out. So, I'm- I'm wondering, earlier on, you know, y- you know, you said kind of, you know, today only about 5%, you know, of- of- of your leads are... I guess your leads or your customers are coming from- from like your traditional paid ads, pay-per-click type stuff, but early on, what ha- what was that mix?
What did that mix look like, and what did you do, you know, earlier, and then how did it sort of evolve over time? Yeah. A l- a lot of it in the earlier stages was pay-per-click, but, you know, I- I feel like there's a lot of companies out here who- who have built their business on referrals. And definitely that's where it started for us. Like- like be- between referrals from, in the early days, just from previous clients. That's- that's what turned this from...
Mahogany Builders started because my partner, Matt Lederer, was doing a project on his own home, and found a lack of professionalism in the industry, and- and found a team of guys, and did such a good job on his own house that his neighbor over here asked him to do a remodel for... Or, you know, his brother over here asked him to do a remodel, and suddenly that just... It- it went from being a side gig to a m- a- a main gig, right? And so it- it was all by referrals from past clients first.
There was no sort of business development like I had just talked about. There was no, uh, real, uh, uh, advertising of any kind, no, like, in magazines or noth- you know, sort of the traditional advertising routes like that. It was all just organic until there's a... You hit a point at which you've done work for everybody in your own personal network who you pa- uh, and- and the second and third sort of, uh, levels of that own network. And you- you- you run out at- at a certain point.
And I think that we probably did that summ- somewhere around the- the 2013, 2014 range, and that was when we started, uh, when we brought on that- that new salesperson. And he went to the Merchandise Mart, and that was huge for us. I don't know if- if every market has something like this, but in Chicago, I know your ears just perked up if- if, uh, if you've- if you've ever heard of the Merchandise Mart, it is the- the center of- of design and remodeling in Chicago.
That if you were doing a high-end remodel, i- you get stuff from the Merchandise Mart. It is a, uh... It was at one point the largest building in the world. Uh, it is, uh, like, 18, 20 stories, takes up, uh, a giant city block, uh, that is full of vendors for tile, cabinetry, plumbing fixtures, appliances, all of them being really, really high end. And so we went to the Merchandise Mart, uh, and started making
contacts. And we made contacts with great cabinetry companies, great tile companies who were there, who... Interior designers would go to them. They would say, "You know, uh, uh, hey, we're buying this tile for a job. We need somebody to install it. Who do you recommend?" And- and getting us higher up that list.
And now we went from doing jobs just for our internal network or- or levels of our own internal friends and family, maybe past clients of that network, to now we're really expanding that network, right? And that's- that's the hard work, like I talked about earlier, of- of meeting new people who- who are in positions to be able to get your name out there, ingratiating
yourself to those people. We've- we use, um, a great internal process, uh, that- that we call the prospecting pipeline, of turning people from, uh, from people who we just met into evangelists eventually. And- and we've got different stages throughout our pipeline. There's- there's, uh, there's- there's a- a partner.
There's, uh, uh... [laughs] I'm- I'm of course blanking [laughs] on it as I'm trying to explain it to you right now, but the goal is to make it so somebody is referring to us, numerous projects every single year, that are... That- that turn into jobs for us. And- and the... What we... How we treat people at every one of these sort of five stages in our- in our process is- is different, and so we'd never... That- that was a- a s- period of growing up for us, and figuring out, like, "Okay,
we've... You know, we know we're getting th- that- that... We get business from this designer over here. Well, how do we replicate that?
How- how- how do we do more meeting of these people and put them into a system where we can, um, you know, help- uh, help move them along and- and get them to understand who we are, what kind of projects are- are best for us, how they can best refer us?" And if somebody is an evangelist, who, for us, is somebody who, uh, refers to us more than two jobs that we win every single year, making sure that we do right by those people in every way that you would want to do right by them.
First and foremost, like, taking care of the clients that they send your way, right? Nothing I'll ever do will be better than making them look good for their referral. But of course, you know, those are the same people who you make sure are getting a real good gift from you every Christmas too, right? And the people sort of at the- the- the bottom of that chain are people who are... You know, we are just fostering the relationship with them.
They're people who don't understand maybe yet who our ideal client is or where we might fit into their own ecosystem. Designers are such a huge one of 'em for us. So we have internal design in our company, two fabulous classically trained interior designers who- who do everything from, uh, actual, uh, construction drawings, documents, to the selections. And, uh, and- and working with clients directly, and can do an entire design process. And there's a lot of designers out there who prefer......
not to do those things, or, or prefer to do less of that. They don't want to do as-builts. They want to be the leader or the face of the project, the one who picks out the FFE and things like that. And, and for us, um, we work really well as being those designers' back-end in a way. You know, a, a lot of times, they just wanna go... And you were gonna say something?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it's, I... So I was, I was curious though, like, when, when you talk about these, sort of these, these, these partnerships that you're forming in, in both with, with your clients and with these, you know, these, these partners here, like, uh, how, how are you incentivizing? You, you said that, you know, you give them a really nice gift at Christmas.
But is there some other thing that, you know, or some other incentive, or, like, what, what are you doing that, like, is, is literally turning them to deliver, like, you know, four referrals per year? Yeah. That's a great question. And, and it changes based on, uh, what that person's sort of role is, right? The, the value you can deliver a real estate agent, huge referral source for us, is different from the value that I can, that I can give to a, a designer, right?
The designer, the value I can give them, I sort of already, uh, just hit, hit that a little bit. Like, a lot of designers don't want to do every part of design that is necessary for us to go into construction. Reflected ceiling plans, electrical plans, plumbing, demo plans, those sort of things are not what every single designer... Some, some do, but not what everyone does.
So, to be able to provide value to them by being the sort of silent back-end to, to empower them to do more, uh, and, and support larger projects with more organization. We work with a lot of one-man shop designers who, who are got beautiful websites, re- uh, very, very high-end finishes that they select and work in high-end homes, but they are, in the end, one person. We allow those people to be able to do more.
Great business case for being able to meet a, a s- a single p- or, or, or two-person design firm and be able to really be the muscle behind them. And we, we don't need to take the credit for anything- Wow ... that we do there. [laughs] We, we wanna empower those partners to look really good. Because when we... We know when we do that, th- that more business will come our way. So that's the design part.
The real estate agent part, may be a little bit different because, uh, the, the way the real estate agent might interact with that property or the, this, uh, the, the, the couple that you might be doing, uh, work for is different. You know, it... For real agents, we found ourselves at times, uh, you find the right person, you don't wanna do this all the time, but we'll go on walk-throughs with people. And that is a huge boost to that, uh, real estate agent's credibility with their clients.
When the real estate agent's like, "Yeah, we're looking, you, uh, you know, we, we gotta fixer up over here, and, uh, I'm gonna bring in my, uh, my contractor to talk to you about potential options for this," it now makes it more likely for that real estate agent that they could close the sale. That, and, and that's really in the end what matters.
If you, if you help them close that sale, and then you go make them look good for giving such a great recommendation, you, you have now created a raving fan who is only going to, uh, refer you. But you gotta make sure, for both those designers and those, those real estate agents, that they understand the right project for you.
Yeah. Uh, we, we've developed relationships with lots of people who fall into those categories who were very fortunate to give us lots of leads, but not every one of them is a qualified lead for us, right? So, um, understanding really clearly what is a qualified lead for your company and, and, uh, and making sure that those people out there know sort of where you, where you fit. Uh, a real estate agent is not gonna bring us in, uh, to
throw a coat of paint on a home that they're trying to sell, right? That, that's a super... They need to be cost-effective, they need to be as, uh, cheap and fast, and that's not who we are, right? We make sure to let all those real estate agent partners know that we're not the guys who are gonna do that for
you. But if you have two homeowners who are moving into a home that they're gonna live in for the next 10, 15 years, where quality is the most important thing, establishing a relationship with a good contractor is the most important thing, then you can do no better than, than to bring in someone from my team. So what, so what about... And, and great, great advice here. What about with the homeowner, the client? Like, is there anything that you do to...
You know, after the job's completed, obviously, you've, you've done a great job, you've, you've earned their trust and respect. Is there anything extra that you do to try to, you know, parlay that into a few more referrals down the line? Uh, for sure. Um, it, uh, being there is, is gotta be the, the first
one. I feel like there is... It's pro- very much true, the, the, um, sort of meme of the contractor who is, uh, uh, gonna run away with your money or is, is never there to, to service your warranty or never picks up the phone as soon as you finish the... uh, the, uh, the project. Like, all those things are really well-earned reputations for, for other
people in our industry. And so, like, it starts with sort of changing the narrative around that and truly, genuinely being the, the people who are always there for them. So, yeah, I mean, like, well after warranty periods, we are still checking in with our clients every single year to, uh... At least once a year, say, "Hey, let's... Can we come in and seal your tile? The tile that we put in, we know it needs to be sealed.
Can we come in and, and do that? We just wanna make sure that, uh, that you're still enjoying..." I mean, it's, it's demonstrating a genuine care for the job that you have done there that, that makes you top of that person's list. When you, when, when you as a homeowner give, give your friend or your neighbor down the street a referral for a contractor, and they go and do a good job for them, the, the credibility that you earn, like, it can't be
understated. It, it... You know, ha- having someone who is seen to have a good network, who can be relied upon for good things, that increases someone's status. So that's really the center of it for me. Is... Yeah, of course, we do flowers every Christmas for people, and we'll send a, you know, bottle of Veuve or something like that over to 'em. Uh, but none of those things I would say are what, what genuinely sets us apart. When we do gifts, we do nice ones.
We've got some really high-quality blankets. I got this one from J.Ford... From, from John Ford, from J.Ford Construction in, uh, in Park City, Utah. Uh-When you're buying a gift like that, he, he liked buying the, the blanket because it's something that's, that's n- no name on it, no branding or anything like that, but it's something that's gonna s- be comfortable and sit on your couch for a long time. And be something that you think of as a homeowner of somebody who wanted to take care of you.
That, that was really important us, not to, not to brand everything that we do to everyone. But again, to be a genuine help and, and a light in people's lives instead of like this consistent self, uh, promoting, um, marketing machine. That's just, that's just not who we are. Yeah. No, I, I, I love that. Right there, I mean, i- it, you know, y- you go above and beyond, and you show them that you genuinely care about them.
And you're not, you know- Uh-huh ... just there trying to, to squeeze every last penny out of them. I mean, go- going back to seal up their tile, I mean, it's quick trip, costs you, you know, very little. But like, if that can turn into another huge project, oh boy, the return on that investment. I mean, that would've been cheaper than having to run probably a, a Google ad.
You know, your customer acquisition cost on a, on a, on a couple hour trip, you know, is, is, is, is, is way lower than, you know, the 1000 you'd spend to get, you know, a qualified lead converted to a customer. Didn't even think about it in, in the s- in, in the sort of cost of cl- cu- client acquisition thing, but you're right. That just, that blows it out of the water. I mean, it's...
That furthers the sort of narrative that we've always had that, that Goo- that, that sort of cold paper click advertising- Yep ... finding out about us on the internet has never been the, the way to, to interact with us, or what, the way that actually we earn business. It's really from being good people that, that, that are genuinely trustworthy and, and that
you would be lucky to work with. Like, we, being, being genuinely those people is, is what has earned us the reputation that we have that, uh- Wow ... um, yeah, 80% of our business comes our, uh, through referrals from those three sources, plus, uh, previous homeowners. And we're tremendously, tremendously proud of that. That's awesome. Mm-hmm.
And what, what would you say, so those, the, the, you know, the number of leads coming in, what wo- what would you say your, your close rate, you know, how many of those are you able to convert from, you know, a lead to, to a customer? So, uh, I've, I've got all those stats, uh, if in our, uh, we use HubSpot for our, uh, for our marketing purposes. We've got a great dashboard that we've built there.
We get about, um, we get about, uh, 260 leads per year of which we have, uh, between a 55 and 60% qualification rate on those leads. You know, if somebody calls me for... I, I'm just making this up, like landscaping outside is not something that we typically do, or just like a one-off I need a cabinetry door. So, we get a, a lot of those things. But, uh, that, that roughly 55 to 60% of the leads that come in our door are qualified, I
think is a really good percentage. You know, we feel really fortunate for that. I know that if we upped the dial on our Google Ads spend that that percentage of qualified leads would go way, way, way down because it, the, uh, the source... That is the, uh, lowest source of qualified leads for... Google Ads make up about 25% of our total leads that come in, but only about 10% of our qualified leads that come in.
Whereas referrals from warm sources like those industry partners like I talked about, or, uh, or, uh, previous clients or friends, uh, those make up you, you know, uh, about the other 75% of our leads and make up about 85% of the actual projects that we do in any given year. So, um, we've been able to keep really good statistics on that. It's something that I like to, to keep my thumb on all the time of that, of what that balance is of qualified leads that are actually coming in.
Uh, so if you don't have a system and a dashboard that does that, I think y- y- you need to. And with the new dashboards that you guys just released, I think that would be a really... If, if you had like a custom field for qualification level or yes/no qualification, that would- Yeah ... be a really cool thing to put on, on one's dashboard. Yeah, absolutely. And so, but when, so when you think about kind of how many of those qualified leads turn into customers, what would you say?
Oh, uh, we're at, so we're at about 22% close rate from, from qualified leads to customers, uh, and that translates to about, uh, nine or 10% of total leads to- Right ... uh, to, to customers. So, uh, and, and yeah, of course I wish that was higher, uh, but I think that, uh, a 20% close rate on qualified leads is, is pretty close to what I understand to be the industry, uh, standard, uh- Sure ... just from being in re- Remodelers Advantage. And I, I, uh, I, I'm, I'm okay with that.
You know, I- Yeah ... we, we've got it then mapped out what you're s- if you've been through Sandler you know about making your cookbook. And, uh, so yeah, it's, it's all part of our cookbook of how many leads we need every single week- Yep ... to generate X amount of, of jobs for us. And are you, do you like kind of... Ho- how do you sort of think about, you know, when you're budgeting,
you know, your marketing spend. I mean, you know, obviously you're spending some on Google Ads, but it sounds like the bulk of it is going into this, these networkings, the referrals. You know, probably maybe even grouping up all the, the gifts and the, and the little, you know, nice things that you do. I mean, like it, it... How do you, how do you sort of think about how much you need to be spending every month or year to make sure that you're keeping, you know, that top of the funnel filled?
Uh, I, I've tr- I... We've been around 1 to 2% of, of net, uh, excuse me, of, of, um, top line revenue spent on marketing, which I think is really, really low. I thi- I think that is tremendously low. Um, it's, it, I, there are people in my Remodelers Advantage group who spend 15, 20% of their top line revenue on, on marketing, and that's a lot. It's just, it's a completely different model than we do. It is right for people in certain places of the market. If you are based on volume,
that's probably a good... that's, that's, that's a, a good place for you. We're not based on volume. We're, we're, we're based on size. Our average job size keeps getting larger and larger, which for us means that the quantity of jobs that we do every year is getting smaller and smaller.
And that's a really s- that's a good place for us that means less.... work for our salespeople, to, to convert less leads that we need, uh, to convert- No ... I feel like it is way, way off on a track and didn't answer your question, no. No, that's, it's perfect. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Uh, a- a- and then h- how do you, you know, so, so again, kind of you're, you're winning the jobs, you know, but like you, you said earlier in the beginning when we were kinda talking about, you know, sort of software and, and, and how, you know, JobTred is really helped you to focus more than ever before on your gross profit. You know, can you explain kind of what, what that is and why that's so important and, and how are you having more of a focus on that? Um,
yeah. This was a, a, I'm, I'm smiling because this was a great transformation for us that really started in 2023 when we started using JobTred. The systems that we had had there before had not allowed us to roo- to job cost on individual jobs in a way that we knew we were capturing all the in- all the income and all the expenses on it. Everything was in sorta despair. Our, our hours were kept in this system over here. Our, our expenses were over here in this system.
And so, there was never like one good place to be able to job cost. And so, um, [laughs] we've got this now that we are able to do that. And, and we are lucky that we, we are perpetually reconciled. We are reconciled every single Monday with all of our, all of our accounts, which is a difficult thing to do, but we've got a great office, uh, manager that helps us do that. We've got a board in our office that we track quarter-to-date, uh,
GP on a weekly basis. And we set goals for our team based on hitting GP goals that the entire team, uh, enjoys the, the fruits of their labor if we hit cert-... We've got three different tiers, uh, that, you know, if you hit X percentage you get Y bonus. If you hit, you know, this one up here, you get the higher, you get the higher bonus. And it's something that we track every single week as a team. We look at our profit and loss, put it up on the board every single Monday.
Uh, and, and we can all look at the, all of the inputs and, and, and outputs of, of what we did. You see everybody you invoiced last week. You see that we had three, 400, 500 hours worked last week, but we only invoiced $20,000. Well, hey, there's a, there's a disconnect right here.
And, um, the focus, the ability to job cost and focus on, on not just like an individual job basis, but, but an, uh, an aggregate basis like that with confidence, consistently every week changed the perspective of everyone
in our company to focus on GP now. The sort of qu- af- after we in- re-introduced this sort of new bonus structure, this team-based bonus structure, the buy-in, [laughs] the, a- as, as, uh, as indicated by the sorta questions that you hear your team ask, you know, uh, a- about, "Hey, uh, how, when I did this last week, did that impact this number here or did it impact this number right here?
Why, why did this have an impact on profit or did it not," changed the way our, our team looks at what we do on a week to week basis completely. And only able to do that when JobTred really focused us on, on that. Um, we were bouncing back and forth between costing by, by cost code and, and by item. That's, that's a consistent battle that I have right now.
I'm probably thinking about going back to doing it by cost item, but, uh, nonetheless, the visibility that we have into, into the profitability of each job to be able now to say, "Why was this job so profitable? What was different about this job?" And, and quantify and, and switching tabs, looking at how many hours we actually spent versus a budget has made it like, uh, you, you, you got the world at your fingertips, essentially.
You've got all the tools at your fingertips, if only you know how to use them. It's like, uh, like when a doctor uses one of those da Vinci machines to, to do surgery on you. I feel like that sometimes, where I'm using these tools to not directly, but indirectly impact my team and the things in, in, in the field in that way. And, and it's just been so helpful to us. And the dashboards are gonna take that to another level.
Yeah. That's, that's awesome. You know, I, I, I love hearing how transparent you are with this. Like, you know, so many times, I hear businesses that, you know, they, they feel like they can't share, you know, their, their profitability. Or, or I even see people, they're like, "Well, we don't even want, you know, our salespeople to know what the
profit is." It's like ho- you know, ho- how are, how are you gonna, you know, get them to go out and, you know, do their job and sell, you know, great, great work if, if you're not giving them the tools- It's a great point ... and the visibility that they need. You know, like you, you're just putting it up for everyone, your, your, your profitability by week,
that's awesome. And then, and then you've given everyone goals, so that it sounds like everyone has an incentive to- Oh, for sure ... to help the company hit those goals, and then that's how we can all win together. So it's not like, "Oh, we're just putting more money in, in, in the, in the company's pocket." It's like, no, this is directly gonna come back and benefit you. And that gives them the incentive to want to be focused on that.
Don't know what we did before this. Don't, don't know how I... Don't, don't know how we operated before this. Like that, that, that our growth profit is now a central focus of everyone on the team every single week is something that I couldn't have bought. But if I could have bought it, it would have cost way more than, than what I'm paying out because, eh, it's, um, it, it has proved to be a great investment.
And, you know, I mean, that, that, that comes with the, the territory that you can't also be the kinda guy who's out there hiding the, the, uh, the net profit or go out and buying a huge F-150 Raptor or something like that while, while the, while you're showing the team's low profitability, right? That, that kinda stuff, it's you gotta live a life, I guess, as, as a leader that matches what you're talking about over there too, right? So it, that kinda goes hand in hand. But, um- Yeah
... you know, I, I... We've got no problems with that at Mahogany Builders. Yeah. We're proud of what we do. We're proud of, of, of making a, a seven to 11% net profit e- every year if we're, if we're lucky, and we think that that's reasonable, nothing to shake a stick at, and, uh, something that we're, uh, we're quite proud of. So, so how... I'm just curious, h- h- how did you structure that, that incentive package for everyone? Does, does everyone have the same incentive?
Is it kinda based on your role you've got an incentive? Like does everyone... You know, h- h- how does that look? We have in our company, uh, uh-... individual bonuses that, that are related to an individual's KPIs and their role, salesperson in, in closing sales, right? And we have those team-based goals that every- So, everybody has a couple of different bonuses that they're able to hit, individual and team-based. So for us, the team-based is supposed to be ubiquitous, that everybody wins when
everybody wins in, in the company. And it's, you know, i- i- and it is that way because not everyone's individual actions, if we have five projects going on concurrently, not everyone's actions on this project are gonna immediately impact this project over here, right? That, that can be a little bit difficult. But, uh, but that's why we have individual bonuses for those people too. So, it's a way for, for everyone to be rewarded for both what they do individually and as a
team. How we actually structure it, it's a bit of a, a moving target and, and I'm the one who sets those bonus targets. There's, there's three of them every single quarter that we have. Prefer not to talk about the actual, uh, percentages, but, uh, it's something that changes all the time. But it's based on what I think, w- what I, what I foresee, what I can predict, what I want my team to s- to be able to stretch to.
If we crushed it last quarter and hit our top line budget number, yeah, you could bet I'm probably gonna increase those, because I want us to continue to strive. I think those- Mm-hmm ... that, that is the sort of essence of leadership is, is recognizing that and continuing to have your team strive for goals like that and have the, the goal not just be static, I guess. Yeah. So it's, it's percentage based on the GP?
It, it's, it's exactly tied to... Sorry, I should've been more, uh, elaborate about that. Yeah, so it is exactly tied to our GP. Every single week we look at what the gross profit is and I've got it adjusted, so I have got, um, uh, journal entries that every single week move things- Wow ... that sh- that are below the line to being above the line, right? Um, just because I, I, I know what that, that should be. Uh, and so we're looking at true GP every single week.
And, you know, we can see how it relates to on our jobs. If we've got a mix of jobs that are, that are between, you know, 33 and 45% GP, we can sort of see how they impact the balance of where we are right now in terms of invoicing. And it's, I, like I said, I don't know what we did without this. As soon as we implemented this, it was like, it's now the standard for our company. I don't imagine us doing anything different.
It's now, I, I put it into the job offers that we, that we make to people that, "Hey, you're gonna have a team-based incentive every single quarter around our, our gross profit." And, you know, I'm only paying this when we win, right? Like it's, it's, that's, that's the part of the incentive based that, that's, that's beautiful about it, right? I don't have to take a huge risk as a business owner in doing that.
It's, it's- No ... and we get to, I S- I've always said that like, leadership is, is what you celebrate, what you tolerate, and what you demonstrate. And that celebrate part is so, is so important to that, right? And like, you gotta define what a win is for your company. And when you do win, you gotta, you gotta celebrate it, right? And, and so that's, that, that's what we try and do, is, is celebrate the things that
truly matter to us. And for us, that's- [laughs] ... you know, internally, that's GP. Of course that's, that's- Yeah ... happy customers, great reviews, e- externally, but internally, that's, the, the profit is what, uh, makes the blood run through our veins. That's what ke- that's why we're a business and not a hobby, right? No. Man, Wes, this is, uh, this has been incredible, such great advice. You know, I, I, I, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing all this. Thank you.
You know, as, as, as we wrap up, is there anything, you know, that, you know, that you wish you would've known earlier on that you now know, you know, kind of besides, you know, all the great advice you've already shared, but just any final thoughts, any advice that you would give, you know, others who are looking to, to follow in your footsteps and be able to build- [laughs] ... and structure their company, you know, so they can have the same level of success?
Um, th- sure. This may be more specific than you were, than, than you were looking for. The last thing that's like at the tip of my tongue is, is record every single team meeting. Record it. Record it for, for the purposes of, of leaving breadcrumbs. We had a, uh, a, an employee, uh, have, have a, a terrible health issue, the next day couldn't,
couldn't work for our company. And had we been able to have information that we re- that we talked about in every meeting prior to that, we would've been able to, uh, uh, move on in, in a, in a positive way as a company. And instead when this happened to us, it really took us down because it... When you're a small company, often one person is the center of, of everything. And for us, that was the person who, who went down for us. And that was right in the beginning of COVID.
And ever since then, I have recorded and now I just added to it using AI to, to take notes of every single meeting that we have, whether it's in person, I, I use a recording device, or, or, um, or meetings like this virtually. Uh, so, uh, use, use a recorder of some kind and, and keep all those things around. That would be the last thing that I tell you organizationally. Man, that's awesome.
Mm-hmm. Hey man, I, I, I really appreciate, you know, again, the, the opportunity to, to be able to, to, to just be a partner here with you, kind of just fly on the wall. Like, watching you build, you know, your, your, your businesses has just been so exciting because you're making all the right moves, you built a great team, you're focused on the right metrics, the KPIs, you've incentivized everyone correctly. You've figured out really how to keep that, that, that engine going, if you will.
And, and now it's, you know, really starting to pay off. So, you know, thank you, Wes, for- Thanks for saying that, Eric. Yeah, no. It's, it's, it's awesome, man. And you- and you're great, great inspiration, great role model for everyone else out there. I hope, hope everyone took a lotta notes on this. You know, obviously might have to go and, uh, re-watch it a couple times, but, you know, just phenomenal advice. So thank you, thank you for coming on and sharing everything.
Thank you, Eric. It was my sincere pleasure. Absolutely. Well, have a great one, Wes. Thank you. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your journey along the way. Don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review. And as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact us at builderstories.com. We'd love to hear from you.
I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember, every builder has a unique story. Keep building yours. [rock music]