Tackling the Racial Wealth Gap (How-To Monday)

for the Boston Globe. She is the inaugural columnist for The Emancipator, which is a joint independent, anti racist multimedia project from Globe Opinion and the Boston University Center for Anti Racist Research, which I am so glad that that is even a thing that exists, and the author of the Emancipator's new newsletter called Unbound. Now, Kimberly is one of my most illustrious guests yet, y'all, so I'm going to continue with her bio. She's also an MSNBC contributor

and co host. She's our podcast sister co host of the Politicon podcast called Hashtag sisters in law. Previously, Kimberly was the first Washington, DC based news correspondent for wbbur So for my NPR Public Radio fanatics, we love that She's also served as the Boston heralds Washington Bureau, chief, guest host of c SPAN's Morning Collins Shows, Washington Journal, and a Supreme Court reporter for Massachusetts Lawyer Weekly. So you have a background in journalism, in law, in all

these different facets. I love a multifaceted woman and I cannot wait to get into my conversation. So, without further ado, welcome Kimberly. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition. Thank you for having me, Mandy. I'm excited to be here. So tell me about the Emancipator. It hasn't launched yet. We're kind of a little bit ahead of the curve

breaking news for y'all. If you haven't heard of the Emancipator, what can you tell the audience about this incredible new publication and why you decided to be a part of it.

population of people in America. They had a broader vision, you know. They thought about what it would look like, what it would take to make black people who had been enslaved full and participating citizens in American society, How to get them educated, what they could do, they could start businesses, how they can run for office, how they know not just vote, but run for office. How they can be a fully integrated part of society as a whole.

What citizenship really meant. They got the idea to take that tradition and create a new platform to take that same approach and looking at anti racist solutions to the issues we have here and now today, not just rehashing problems or talking about them, but thinking out of the box, thinking about some solutions to the racism that's built into

all sorts of systems, not just criminal justice. This grew like a lot of things out of the wake of the lynching of George Floyd, but beyond that, in all sorts of areas, and that's where this project was born. Being brought me on board early on, I was very eager to do so. Since then, we have co editors in chief Deborah Douglas and Amber Payne, who have been steered this project to its launch. And it will launch.

I'm very excited to say it's launching very soon. It's launching this month after a lot, a lot of hard work and anticipation, so I'm really excited about it.

sort of publication. And I think when I had just started Mandy Money, I had just launched my sort of independent business, venturing out into my own this past summer, and Amber and I reconnected and she had told me she had just joined the Emancipator, and I was so excited for her, and then so for her a few months later or feels like, I don't know, who knows what it was sometime last year, but more recently she reached out and she's like, Mandy, we're going to be

launching soon, and she invited me to write a piece for the Amanda to pay her as well, which I was so excited to do. And I mean, it's not every day that you get people who are like, hey, can you write about inclusivity, racism in the workplace and the experience of women of color, which that's all I love talking about all day air day here on Brown Ambition. So I'm honored and excited to just be a teeny

tiny little piece of the launch of the Emancipator. Talk to me a little bit about your approach to like, there's not a ton I mean, I don't have any stats on this, but if I had to hazard a guests, there aren't very many opinion writers from women of color. You don't see that often in like mainstream publications. It must I don't know if you feel a particular you know, first only different sort of pressure when it comes to

your approach as an opinion writer. But can you talk a little bit about your experience and how you got to a place where you're like, Okay, I'm a black woman. I'm actually going to write about issues that are important to us and say it with my full chest, like you've written about the crown at Katanji Brown Jackson. You know, these issues that really affect us.

about you, it's about what you're covering. Whereas on the opinion side, you bring your full self to bear. It's still journalism, it's still deeply reported. You still have to show your work, but you bring all parts of view to bear. And for me, of course, that includes being a black woman in America, not everything that I write comes from a particular that particular part of my perspective.

I find it. I'm very grateful that the Boston Globe gives me the idea that gives me the ability to write not only about things that are really important to me, really important to the black community, but also write about, you know, the Russia invasion, also be able to bring to bear my experience covering foreign policy and the law and everything else. Sometimes I feel like I can get pigeonholed, like I'm always the you know, the black commentator on

a panel or something like that. Or you can feel when you're a part of a discussion and you sense that you were added because whoever was moderating it realized at the last minute that it's a panel of white men, and it's like, oh, that's we.

these discussions. Any discussion that affects US in America effects all Americans should have representation of America in that discussion. So in that sense, I'm very grateful for this job. It is great to be able to write about things

that people may not think about them. I think the Crown Act was an example of that, which is piece of legislation that passed the House that prohibits employment discrimination based on one's natural hairstyle, and that really impacts black and brown women and men in a very specific way, because we have long been taught I know, I've heard this that the natural texture of our hair is unprofessional,

you know, or it's a hazard, it's a risk somehow. Yes, we all remember the video of Andrew Johnson, that high school wrestler who was on the sidelines and had someone cut off his locks because they violated a rule. I remember seeing that and crying. But I would see other people who I knew and respected on Twitter saying this is a big deal, like why are we even talking

about this. They just did not have that understanding about how that is a form of racism and how that impacts people, and so being able to talk about that and educate people in a real, genuine way is really important to me, and I'm grateful for that.

kept growing it out? And at the time, I thought, oh, I'm going to save so much money. That's a joke. Correct the number of products it takes, Babe, y'all have no idea the financial commitment to natural hair care of

But anyway, I digress. I was talking to another reporter at CNN about a story and they off handedly asked, you know, have you ever had any issues with your hair going through because my background's and journalism, and I was like, no, not really, But then you know how you go through something and you just kind of like bury it I guess in a way, or you just try to like, I mean, it's what so many of us do. You just you don't clock it at the time.

You're just like, oh, okay, that happened. And I had this just this memory come back to me, come rushing back from when I was at I was a writer and sometimes on air at Yahoo Finance, early in my journalism career, and they had a man, a white man, come in as an image consultant. And it was during this period of transition. And I imagine if you were transitioning, you know, when you have natural hair, it is a whole journey in and of that self. That transition is painful,

it's janky. You don't feel good about. At least I'll speak for myself. It was very hard to be in that in between stage, you know, throw it up in a bun and try to smooth down the curls and whatever. And he was looking at footage of me from earlier in my career at Yahoo, and I was straight, you know, pinned, straight, relaxed. I'm not even wearing glasses. I was like very much what I thought the image had to be. And I was in the middle of this process of transitioning, and

he looked at me and was like, is that you like? Clearly? You know, He's like, that's that doesn't look like you. You don't look like that anymore. That's a great look and like And meanwhile, this guy looked like he spent many years living in his mom's basement. I do not know how this man became. I don't even remember his name. I'm just gonna call him Jeff. It's all I can think of. How did he get the job of a pin of image consultant? How did he get permission to

make me feel so shitty about the way? You know? And that's just like, I don't want that for any other black women to go through. Do you feel like things have gotten better? I mean, you're on TV now, you're not just frightening. Do you feel like it's been getting better for us?

I figure you know, I can do my looks as I please, But once I started doing television, I made a conscious decision that I would never blow out or straighten my hair on TV because I thought especially and this really started when I was on guest hosting the c SPAN Morning Call. In show, you get collars from all over the country, all over the world, and like, it's important that the people in Nebraska see what my

hair looks like. It's important for the people in Boise, Idoh, every place to see what natural hair looks like in their living rooms as they're having their coffee. So that this can stop, so that this idea that that's not acceptable in media, in news, it's okay. Like when I was in a journalism school, there were still people telling, you know, black women, you need to relax your hair, You need to have a look that is acceptable for

TV news. You need to be accepted in people's living rooms, and that essentially meant doing everything you can to adhere to a Eurocentric beauty standard. And that's really appalling. In so many spaces, we are forced to assimilate and adhere to a standard created by someone else, for someone else, and we're the ones who are asked to change ourselves as opposed to the other way around, other people learning to accept us, and I didn't want to be a

part of that, so that was important to me. I think now you see a lot more people wearing their hair natural, being themselves clothing that it fits us better because our bodies can be different. I mean, so many things are beginning to change. I still think there's.

half half bipoc. Intentionally, on my part, I was like, I'm gonna be the quiet, sleeper cell that's going to be hiring these black and brown people and they're not gonna know I'm doing it, and I'm gonna do it that because I was representing and I was there my natural hair, that at least the signal would be sent that this is okay. I'm gonna make it okay. And that's why I feel like so passionate and dedicated to more women of color in positions of power, putting yourself

out there and all of that. And I don't even know where I'm going with this, but just to say thank you, it does matter. And I tell you right now. When I dropped myself off at his daycare, which is mostly white, because this is like I'm in the burbs now, the number of little boys and girls who come out and stare at my hair and point at it. You really like, as I'm like one of the only black moms. I think I saw a black mom last week. I'm not kidding. I feel like a zoo animal sometimes.

All right, be a fan. I am back. So let's jump back into my conversation with Kimberly Atkins Store from the Boston Globe. So you write about a lot of what you write about is and you also your podcast I'm going to talk about that is the intersection of law and the news and politics, Am I correct? So what is?

I just think that was not you know, sometimes you were in a career and you realize that that wasn't the right choice for you and that there are other options. And I was still in my twenties. I thought it was a good idea for me to explore other options before committing to something that might make me unhappy in

the long term. It was not specifically race issues that chased me away from practicing law, even though I was a civil litigation attorney in Boston in which I could go weeks without seeing another black person in the legal space. I worked for a wonderful employer, but I would go to court to argue a case and sometimes be directed to the criminal division or asked if I'm represented by counsel, or asked if I was a criminal defendant. But that

wasn't the main reason I stopped. I just knew that wasn't my bliss, even though I thought the law was interesting. And so my journalism career, as you said, actually ended up steering me toward a job covering the US Supreme Court for the Lawyer's Weekly Papers.

I was like, do what now? So I did that and I really loved it. It was a lot of fun. And I've since then been able to sort of keep a hand in both of those places, as well as covering other national news as well. But that intersection is really important in understanding how laws are made, what they cover,

what they impact. I mean, take the Crown Act. We already have a law that prohibits discrimination in workplaces, so technically it should already it is already illegal for employers to discriminate against people and not promote them, or demote them or not hire them because of their hair texture.

But because people are unaware of that, and because an employer can just say, well, we have the right to set standards, you know, dress codes, hair codes, whatever we want to do, and judges will say, hey, I think that's right. You need an additional law in the ground Act to say no, no, it includes this. That's how the legal system works, and explaining to people exactly why that is when they say, well, why is that isn't already illegal? Well it is, but sometimes you need that

extra bit of help. The same way with it wasn't the Emancipation Proclamation that required the end of enslaving people. It took an amendment to the Constitution, and then it took states to actually adhere by that amendment to the Constitution. It took much longer and much more, and you need people explaining that process and what happens in those early emancipation abolitionist newspapers like the First Emancipator, like The Liberator

and others. You could I have been going back and reading them as part of this project, and you actually see people like William Lord Garrison writing, you know, what Lincoln did is all is nice, but that's not going to change anything unless all these other things are done.

And they understood that. And so that's the kind of the kind of approach that we're taking with the Emancipator and having that legal background and having the understanding of the political realities is super valuable to be able to help bring that to bear.

like he has been lately. But one of the things about it was I was thinking about it, actually wrote about it on LinkedIn because a white colleague of mine, peer of mine had posted it, shared it, and I

was like, we still got to watch our backs. I mean, obviously this is a piece of legislation, it does matter symbolically, but the burden of proof will still be on us, you know, So if you do feel like you are being discriminated against because of your hair texture, I know in some states it already has a lot to be clear, it's not federal yet, but in some states it is a law, but keeping a record if there's any comments

or any you know. I think back to that twenty something year old me who was being told by Jeff that you know, probably going back to relax would be the better, better move for me. Ah man, if I'd

only had a record of that conversation. But protecting ourselves and also not being complacent because at this at the end of the day, even with legislation, the bias is so present, people's bias against us, you know, and it doesn't always come so wrapped up in a bow, you know, in terms of discrimination, like we do not want you for this position because we don't think that you're professional enough because you're black and your hair is natural. It's

never that easy for us to prove. And that I feel like is the is always the exhausting challenge of it all.

get through to people. We have to connect with people and let them understand exactly what the impact of things like that, something that may seem so innoculous that just was brushed off by people who have never been impacted by it because I didn't know, they didn't understand, they've never experienced that. And I think, you know, conversations like

this just teaching people, letting them see. I mean, for the I don't mean to jump ahead, but the series that I'm working on for the Emancipator is addresses built in racial bias in financial systems, and I think I genuinely believe that the people who will continue to perpetuate it. A lot of these things were built by design. They did not want black people to own property to get wealth to That was by design, going back to antebellum times.

But what I think perpetuates it are people who think they're being reasonable or being fair or doing the right thing, or not understanding how that built in bias works. You know, people who say, well, well, yes, I want somebody to have to prove that they can pay for this house if they buy it. That seems fair, right, So they put in all of these procedures that are really surgically targeted toward black folks to keep them from buying that

house or starting that business. Or you know, they say, well, I want my neighborhood to be safe, and there should be ways to ensure that and that gets into redlining policies that are designed to keep black people out. It's also teaching black people that they're somehow risky. You know, so many systems, even more so than the criminal justice system perhaps, where you have this built in idea that

black people. You know, if you have something like a police shooting, the justification of that is the subjective threat that the police officer felt in that situation. So if that police officer believes that black people inherently believes that black people are more threatening, that's going to justify that right.

Nowhere else is it that clear. As in financial systems, where black people are perceived credit risks, Black people are perceived security risks when they buy a house in your neighborhood. Black people are seeing risky business ventures because who's you know, who's going to buy that product? Black people seen as risk and that's built into the system. And I think people don't understand how that plays out. But when you explain it in that way, I hope, I hope people

all people will say, Oh, that isn't fair. That's not how it should work. If you work hard, if you do what you're supposed to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should be yours too. It shouldn't. You shouldn't start out at a disadvantage just because of who you are. And that's when I'm hoping this series will bring to bear, will teach people, and hopefully lead to some change.

do I think a refinance. And now we're starting to see more of these really upsetting but important anecdotes from other black homeowners who are proving our homes have been undervalued. And I just think of and I live now in a majority black neighborhood in the suburbs of New York, which is just this little gem that I hope no one bugs us, ever bothers us, But I have to reckon with the fact that my husband and I could afford a house here because it's one of the more

cheaper of areas of our county. And I have to assume it's because it's a large it's been a largely black, middle class neighborhood, you know, since the nineteen forties. But talk from of the series where do you even begin? Kim, Like, where do you begin?

want you to go in and it's awful. It's awful too. I mean, he was appalled, and I'm appalled to I'm appalled that this is the system. I also don't want the sky high interest rates, so I'm going to do what I need to do in the meantime to survive. But that's the exactly the kind of thing that that we're talking about, and it is foundationally, especially when it

comes to buying home property. I sort of start with explaining how preventing black folks from owning land is the foundational part of all of this, and then I go off. I go in this series to explore four different areas where that's just gotten a little bit less attention than housing discrimination and redlining. One. This one's getting much more attention now thanks to some lawmakers. But one is student

loan debt. Student loan debt is a massive contributor to the racial wealth gap because black parents like mine, teach us, got to go to school. You gotta go to college if you want to succeed, like you got to work hard and go to college. Well, college is very expensive. And then you know, I went to law school, I became a lawyer. I did the things that I thought I was supposed to do that landed me six figures

in debt. And I remembered when I was graduating law school and I had my exit interview with a financial aid, talking to a friend of mine afterwards, saying, oh my god, did you have your exit interview and they just told you how much money you owe? Isn't that crazy? And my friends, who were largely white, almost all white, said what interview? Well, we don't have loans. Our parents paid for law school. And I thought, oh, so we graduated.

I'm seeing them buying cars, buying houses, getting married, moving to the suburbs, and I'm still in my rental, you know, in Jamaica, plane Boston, barely making ends meet, trying to make those massive student loan payments the best that I could. And it's like, Oh, this is what the wealth gap means. It doesn't just mean what your parents pass on to you. It's what you have in this life as you're just trying to get by. And that was sort of what made me think of this. And I look at credit

reporting the barriers in there access to business capital. Black people could be building, could be contributing so much more to the economy if you just let them start businesses and hire people and put that money back into the economy and also invest in investment and retirement. The racial wealth gap doesn't just harm black and brown people, harms everybody. It strips trillions of dollars from the gross national product

over our lifetimes. It really is costing everyone money. And I'm hoping that if I put it that way, like it's called, you want to stop this from costing you money in your pocket, then do what you can to be a part of the solution here.

But if you don't understand the privilege and that whole starting line being so so far setback for some people, how how can you who and you know, the majority is in power, right, so we need allyship and understanding from non black and brown people in positions of power. When they start to care, that's when the change happens. We saw what happened with George Floyd in the summer of twenty twenty when enough of the majority started to care,

not just besides us, and it felt extraordinary. But how can we bring something like that to the same fever point in the financial sector. It's quiet discrimination, it's nefarious. It's like a toxic cancer, right, and we understand it, especially on brown ambition. We understand why it is that we're doing what we're doing. But it doesn't necessarily always

make headlines. You know. There was that the more recent one about Wells Fargo with was it Wells Fargo that discriminated or gave so much more mortgage denials to black homeowners and any other bank? I think it was recent. I'll check the facts on that one, if it's Wells

Fargo or not. I just feel like they're the worst in general, so probably it was them, But it's usually Wells Fargo, right, But the attention that article was getting, I'm like, yes, more of this more data to show how racism pops up for us, absolutely.

have all the answers. Even with all the reporting that I did, all the people that I talked to about solutions, this is not exhaustive. So I hope once this comes out more people will say, hey, you know, we know that problem and this is a solution that we've tried, or this is a new program that we are taking on. So that we can continue this conversation and come up

with more solutions. It is not a stagnant thing, and so that we can not only educate people about these barriers, but also empower them, including all stakeholders, everybody from the banks of America down to your individual self at your kitchen table, trying to make ends meet at the end of each month. What everybody can do, what is in everybody's power, was everybody's responsibility to making sure that that realization, that ideal in the Declaration of Independence, life, liberty, and

the pursuit of happiness is real for everyone. That's such a wonderful place to end our conversation. I wish we had more time. I want everyone to not walk, but run to the show notes right now, because we're going to put a link to Kimberly's newsletter Unbound in there, and also a link to where you can find out more about the Emancipator, which will be launching this month in April. Congrats Kim on the Emancipator, on Unbound and all your success. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition.

It's been such a wonderful conversation. I've loved having you on. Thank you so much for having me on. I've loved talking to you.