Hey, Hey, via fam, It's Mandy here with another episode of Brown Ambition and today's conversation. Y'all, I cannot wait for you to hear it. We continue to send love and lots of hugs to Tiffany and send her all the healing and positive vibes that she could need. As always, if you guys want to send her a note of support, you can find her at the Budgetiesta on all channels.
We love you, Tiffany.
As y'all know, I have been talking up Rachica til sheien ever since I was turned on to her work by her viral article in the Harvard Business Review called stop telling women that we have imposter Syndrome. I will put another link to that article in the show notes. But more importantly, Rachika has a new book coming out, and it is truly extraordinary. I would say it's required reading for anyone in a leadership position, really for anyone
in general. But if you even own a teeny tiny fraction of a percentage of decisions at a company that could impact what it's like to work there for women of color, this book has to be on your reading list. It needs to be at your desk, on your desk, share it with a friend. It's called Inclusion on Purpose, an intersectional approach to creating a culture of belonging at work. It is out this month, and we are joined today by the author herself, Ruchica Tulsian. Ruchka is so multifaceted.
She and I share a background in business journalism, which is just one of the many connections that we've realized we had. She also spent some time working in Atlanta, although now she is calling us from her new home for the past nine years on the West Coast in Seattle. Cheka is an author, a keynote speaker, and she founded her own company called Candor, which is an inclusion strategy practice.
As a former international business journalist, Ruchica's writing has appeared in places like The New York Times, a Harvard Business Review, and of course, her brand new book, Inclusion on Purpose, is out on shelves now. Please go pick up a copy.
So today Ratchika and I sat down to talk about the themes in her book, as well as her experience actually being a change agent, going into companies as a consultant to help them figure out how to do DEE and I initiatives correctly and I mean, honestly, she and I just connected on so many levels, and I think first and foremost are general. You know, we were generally in agreement that we can still be optimistic, that there are places where we can feel included, we can feel
like we have equal opportunity for success. They unfortunately are not as common as we'd all like them to be. But we realistically kind of look at what it's like to be women of color with ambition, wanting to move up in today's society, in today's world, and what it can actually take for us to get there and not get burnt out along the way. So, without further ado, I will get out of my own way and welcome our guest today again. Her name is Rachika till sheian.
To find out more about Rechika, go to Inclusion on Purpose dot co, and of course check the show notes for all the links and where to find her book and find out more about her incredible work. Here's my
conversation with Rechika. All right, Va, fam, I have been talking about today's guests for what feels like weeks, and I am so excited to finally be sitting across virtually from who a woman who I feel like you kind of know when you're immediately going to connect with someone, and just you have the same philosophy about life, you
kind of see things through a similar lens. And within the first ten pages of reading her brand new book, Inclusion on Purpose, I was just like, I, Rechika has to be on Brown Ambition and we have to be friends and it's going to happen, and this is all happening, and Rechika told Shan is actually here.
Hello, Hello, Mandy, thank you for having me.
I'm so excited.
And you actually are aware of brown ambition, which is extraordinary to me. It tells me we are branding ourselves correctly. If you found us, that is what we want.
You are And I just want to say that it is It's a really lonely endeavor to be a brown entrepreneur, right and build a business, a brown and black entrepreneur, and you know, essentially part of a demographic that is often you know, really overlooked and under sponsored and underestimated and underfunded. And knowing that there's a community out there building you know through really really like tall hardship is like,
I mean, what more can you need? Right? So please know that the community you're building is really very special and so necessary, and of course it's my pleasure and honor to be here. And of course, in preparation of this interview, when I when I listened to Stacy Abram's interview, that was that was like a very special, meaningful experience. I mean, firstly, is there anything this person cannot do right?
Like just help? It liked not a thing, but also so thoughtful and insightful the way the questions you asked her and her co author Heather I mean, it was just you did such a good job, Bendy.
Thank you well, thank you so much. And what I love about you. Actually listened to your interview with Brene Brown, you and your friend and fellow colleague, Jodyanne Burry.
Is that correct, Jodyane Berry?
Yeah, Jodyanne Berry, excellent work. I'm also trying to get her on Brown Ambition. So if you want to text her, she's probably snowboarding or something.
But get all the show.
Oh my gosh, I will text her right away, of course.
No, but this is the R Chica Show, so we're going to focus on you. Tell me about this book. Well, first, let me tell you my first my first reaction to reading the book was I was so grateful to it because a part of my story, which if you've listened to Brown Ambition, you know, I spent five years in a senior leadership position managing a team, and you know, it wasn't necessarily a Google or an Amazon, but it
was a relatively big fintech company. And I just remember when I, you know, got that job at like twenty eight, twenty nine, feeling this real sense of responsibility, like I can't pick this up.
I'm a black.
Woman in charge. I get to hire people, I get to review resumes. I'm going to try to do it with the e I'm going to try to do things right. I'm going to try to use my little, you know, corner of influence, my little you know, my little zone of influence, and take small incremental steps toward making this company more inclusive without even telling them.
I didn't tell them.
I was like a covert operator, like, oh, there's going to be some black women in this team, and you know all that. And what I love about your book is that it really feels like it was written for people in places of power and not necessarily to women of color. We already know it's hard we already know how challenging it can be. And when you were approaching this book, I mean, I know that's so much of
what you talk about. You have a firm where you consult and provide trainings to corporations, but talk to me about intentionally speaking to the people who have the power about this issue.
Yeah, this was actually a very complicated, you know, especially when this book was in proposal stage. It was really complicated because what happens is when you're shopping a book proposal around is you need to have a really clear idea of and you need to literally stay like who
are you trying to reach out to? And for me, it was everyone, you know, I really I wanted women of color to be able to see this and feel seen and read it and feel validated because in honestly, every author, in some way, shape or form, writes the
book that they needed and didn't have. And that's how I felt when I even conceptualized the idea of inclusion on purpose, which by the way, only came to light because a woman of color agent reached out to me years ago and said, Hey, I read this one article you wrote on Harvard Business Review. It was not a
viral article. It was not like the you know, imposter syndrome one which I feel so proud to co author with Jodiane, But it was a very it was it was an article that was very meaningful to me about corporate diversity efforts leaving out women of color. And she reached out to me, She's like, have you thought about writing a book, another book, a traditionally published one. Do
you have an agent? And I was like, no, of course, not like I have no, I don't know me really, I mean, what could I contribute to this?
But you'd already published a book before, so you independently published your first book essentially.
Yeah, So I was blogging for Forbes and they were trying to They were essentially, you know, experimenting with an ebook platform, and so the diversity advantage was part of that,
but not at all. A traditional publishing process by any means no agent, no you know, which, of course is a mistake by the way, for anyone listening, if you are planning to publish a book in any way, shape or form, whether even if you publish, if eventually decide to publish independently and self published, it's always a good idea to at least talk to an agent anyway, So.
That that's me.
I'm your audience right now, keep talking.
Oh and I'm you know, and I'm happy to I By the way, when I was done with my book proposal, I sent it to a lot of people. I sent it specifically to women of color. I said, use what you need from this, do what you want with it. I mean, don't put it on the internet. But you know, however it can help please because we have to pass the word on, we need to support each other. But so back to the starticle, I mean, you know, back to this agent. She reaches out, She's like, do you
want to write this book? And I'm like, okay, I guess. And then as it started coming to life and I thought about who I want this book to be for. I really wanted it to be for everyone. I wanted it to be again for women of color, validating our experience because you know, we experienced so much of gaslighting, experience, so much off. You know, that was that wasn't at all what happened. That wasn't my intention. Like what matters
is my intention was good. So I'm sorry that I behaved in a way that you found to be biased or racist. Or sexist, but that wasn't my intention. So it was like that really hard to balance both worlds off. How do you write a book that validates the experiences of women of color, which I really hope you know, when women of color read the book, and again not a monolith, but when women of color, brown and black women read the book, they feel okay, I feel seen.
That wasn't just in my head. I tried specifically to seek out examples of you know, where it wasn't like a horrific example where it would be like a legal case or whatever it is, which obviously is very important, but I was trying to find those very subtle under the table slights and biases and you know, what we commonly know is microaggressions. Although in the book I talk about why I don't like that word, but those every day ways of how it shows up and you feel slighted.
So I wanted to capture that. And then I also, yes, absolutely wanted to talk to people in power and leadership and you know, positions of influence and privilege, because at the end of the day, this should never be our problem to solve, not even close.
If anyone if you're if you're worried about anyone feeling seen. All you have to do is read the forward of the book by Igioma Aluma. So how you say, uhlo oh see you realize I read and I do not say things out loud enough, and I really ought to not do that. But the forward of this book, I mean, that whole that that that's what grabbed me. And I was like, oh, so we're gonna go there, Yeah, and you you do. I mean, the book really can be for anyone. But what I love is it holds the
people who have the power accountable. And I'm curious, Well, tell me a little bit about your work. So you've launched this consulting firm for how long now? And tell me about what you do and what has been some of the feedback you've gotten from people in power and leadership that company who so often you know, don't look like us as to why things take so long for them to get it together. If you can comment on that'd be great.
Oh my gosh. Well, firstly, when you talked about how you were at a fintech company, it took me right back to really what launched my work in diversity, equity and inclusion well before it was trendy, and about a decade ago, I was at a tech company and it was a very very painful and lonely experience in that in that company, I was the only woman of color
in my department. I felt very hyper visible and invisible at the same time, which you know, academic research shows is very much the experience of women of color when we're the only, the first, one of the few, the different a Shonda Rhimes calls us the fods. So I, uh first, only different.
Oh right, okay, that's awesome. Yeah right, it is hyper It's like that that even what you just said, it's like the same thing. You feel hyper visible and invisible at the same time. Hyper visible. For me, it was like hyper visible when I screwed something up, like everyone was going to know and I was going to be, you know whatever, held back by it, and then invisible when the fun stuff came along, is how.
I told Y. Yeah, very painful, very lonely, and I think exacerbated by the fact that our laws and our you know, the way HR operates. And you know, I'm so glad you brought up Iguoma's forward, which by the way, was just I mean, when I read it, I had chills, I had tears. I didn't, you know, and I went with BacT Press is an academic publisher, you know, by sort of traditions. So I didn't curse in the book.
And you know, I wrote to my editor, I was like, Hi, so it says the list, and I know, you know, and and just in general in my own writing, I don't really curse. So I was like, what is can we keep this in because I think it's really necessary and she's like, yeah, given that there was a literal list, yes, so I've lost, like I've lost my trade of thought. But yeah, it's a very it's a very painful, lonely existence and often you don't know where you can turn.
And one of the reasons why I then, you know, I went through this experience. I quit, I leaped into entrepreneurship, didn't know what was coming, had somewhat of a safety net because I'd been saving. And then I also, you know, I'm married to a spouse who works in tech, worked at continues to work in tech, so I could take that leap in a way that I know that for so many women of color I've spoken to since and even for the book, it's very very tough, and I
acknowledged my privilege being able to do that. And as I as I got into consulting also completely in an inadvertent it wasn't planned. At that time, there was no real language around diversity, equity and inclusion that was really meaningfully being heard. Right, there were those really big vendors that would get these big contracts with these big companies, and they would do a sort of check the box exercise. They'd be like compliance and leal, which you know, of
course I'm not a lawyer. So there was that, and then there was me over here trying to say, there needs to be more. There has to be more to address the more subtle but very harmful behaviors that we are seeing day in and day out that I'm hearing about, that experience that I'm researching about. And so when I launched Candor, and it's not very old, you know, I incorporated Candor, my consulting firm, in twenty seventeen, so it's
actually not even that old. I did it when my child was less than a year old, and I really, in many ways just did it because I was like, well, I'll go back into some sort of like a corporate space eventually, right, Like I am trained as a journalist, Maybe I'll just take a few more years off. Maybe I'll do a couple of like short projects, probably not going to make a lot of money, and then go back into something more full time. And maybe it was
the moment, Maybe it was the timing. Maybe it was the fact that we reached this point of no return after the twenty sixteen elections. But something just switched for me, and in many ways, I think for a lot more corporate leaders. So the conversations I was starting to happen even before twenty seventeen, but really since twenty seventeen was more corporate leaders saying I see that there's a problem, like I'm really seeing it now, And even if I want to make a change, I don't know how. I
don't know where to get started. Many folks had really good intentions but did not really think about the impact, or care about the impact, or have words to talk about the impact that they were having on women of color, especially black and brown women. And I think that's that led me to want to write this book. You know, I started doing it through my other writing. I explored
through all my other writing. I was really exploring this this reality that was so clear to me that for women of color the workplace was so different than the experience of white women in the workplace. And I never thought that there would be appetite for it. And the fact that there is it, you know, it's it really is remarkable right now.
Yeah, you mentioned you're launching entrepreneurship, and I'm kind of nodding my head because I just launched my own entrepreneurial journey this past summer. Yeah, I know, it hasn't even been a year yet. I'm just I'm a newborn entrepreneur entrepreneur, and I too had privileged you know, I had scrolled away and I had to ask myself, you know, what was it all for if I can't just dive off
this cliff and see what happens, you know. And then my husband, who I've talked about, he's my health he's my health insurance card.
Same here, same Yeah.
Isn't it nice? Although I tell women all the time, you know, there's the healthcare marketplace, you can make it happen. But let's talk about entrepreneurship, because I mean, you also share this stat in the book, which I want to pull up really quickly, and there's a couple of different stats. Also, you know other data that has shown that women of
color are just the fatigue. And I'm imagining two big factors are twenty sixteen election in the summer of twenty twenty just sort of culminated in the sense of like, get us out of here, Yeah, get us out of this place. We're so tired of it. And what I what I feel like is happening is right at the point when companies are finally almost getting it and starting to invest more in these initiatives. For a lot of us, it's it's like too little, too late, And I'm wondering.
I want to get your take on that, because I have found I have a group coaching cohort called the Mandy money Makers. My eighth week is this week. My first core is done and I'm twenty four amazing women of color. We're in this first cohort and we had I thought if it was last week. Week before I talked all about entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship and how to be
entrepreneurial at work and how that benefited my career. And I remember one of the a couple of times on one of my one of my makers was like, but Mandy, like you left corporate America, is there no hope? And I feel deeply that there is hope, But yet I'm also like, for me, the story was a little bit over.
But how do you?
How do you? How do you sort of respond to those questions? Because I'm with you, I do believe that there's good intentions out there, that people are willing to change and want to change and create a better place for women of color to work. But what But I also grapple with for some of us, who's too little, too late? Yeah, go in and get out, girl, take care talent elsewhere. Two things can be true.
What do you feel about that?
You're I mean literally what you said. Two things can be true. And I've met a lot of people who are in corporate environments where they have felt supported and seen and heard. They may not have always felt that way, but they're in a place, they've landed in a place where they do feel that way. They feel really they get a lot of meaningful joy out of the work that they do, the team that they interact with, they want to be part of, like a bigger picture within
an organization. And for over a while, that was me. I really did feel that way. I was very excited and energized by the work I was doing. What became far too much to bear, far too toxic in the long run, you know. And this was even before I had a child. I cannot believe, but I cannot imagine what it would have felt like to come home to a child with some of the toxicity I was dealing with at that time, and how could I really be present as a person, as a human being, as a mom,
as a caretaker. But I think for some people, they really like that environment. They really, I mean, you know, they like the work they do. They find it to
be meaningful. Entrepreneurship is not for everyone, right, And I actually think that there's a specific type of person in my sort of group of friends who are entrepreneurs and the people I admire like you do have to be really ready to take that risk, right, It is risky, and whether it's because you have a safety net or whether it's because there's some other reason, but that risk
is a very big part of it. And I hate that for women of color who may not want to take that risk, for whom they know, entrepreneurship is not the way forward when they feel compelled to make that leap because they're having such a terrible experience in the workplace. They're experiencing racism and bias and sexism and misogyny in all of those things. I really wish that there was a better way. And that's why I can't think of a more urgent you know, leadership sort of quality, trait, priority,
call it what you want. Then inclusion right then really focusing and prioritizing what are people who have historically been marginalized, left out, overlooked, underestimated, What are they feeling, what are
they going through? How can I use my privilege to change that experience so that we retain this amazing, innovative, ambitious That's the part that always gets I feel like it gets hidden, But the data is so clear women of color, and this is a like women of color, we know, not a monolith across you know, categories, which demographics, et cetera. Women of color are consistently far more ambitious
than are white counterparts. Are white women counterparts. So the fact that we are leaving the fact that we are not getting the support and the you know, yeah, support and sponsorship and funding that we need we're getting underpaid, we're getting overlooked. It just it really breaks my heart because the opportunity, in my mind, is endless to retain and to promote women of color who are ambitious, who are not you know, who are not leaving for the
reasons that our media keeps banding about. You know, they as soon as they become moms, they want to leave. I mean, the data around women of color does not show that.
Oh please, as soon as we become moms, I want nothing. I wanted nothing more than to go back to work.
Yes, yes, yes, it's.
Not good for me.
No, no, it wasn't for me either. Yes, And these are the stories. These are the stories I don't hear, right, the stories I hear in the media. In this is why your work is so important, because what I hear is like you, you know, you feel so shameful and it's so terrible, and you're like, you know, it's so hard to have to go back to work and all of that, and I think of women of color whom for?
And this is why, specifically in my book, I did not have a chapter around women of color and caregiving, because I said, our realities are so different and they're also varied. It's so nuanced that you can't capture it in one book. But you know, for a lot of women of color, we've not had that luxury of choice. Like,
we've not had that luxury. You know, many of us have ancestors and family and friends who've had to go back right after giving birth right because of the lack of social structures in this country where there wasn't that privilege of choice.
Yeah, and I think even more so if you are lucky enough like I was, to have paid parental leave, which is just not it's astonishing to me in this country we still are like one of a handful that don't offer. But I almost felt like I need to get back, I need to get back.
I'm missing out.
And I think that's also that the you know why we call the show Brown Ambition is because you understand that it's really you know, sometimes people have so such low expectations for us when we walk in the room, it's really criminal.
And so I feel like we.
Overcompensate, We ratchet up our expectations on ourselves and then we're like, and now we got to go. And you know, it's not like people are necessarily thinking when's this person is going to come back or whatnot. But we know that we have to seize every opportunity we have to make an impact that we can keep going.
And I get it, like.
That sense of fatigue, and especially with my with my makers, talking to them weekend and week out several you know, there's been people, you know, women are really getting emotional and it is exhausting the labor of all of this. I want to talk to you a little bit about.
I know your book very much is about inclusive practices in business and among leaders, which is incredible, but you know, for anyone listening who's struggling with that type of fatigue, talk to talk about some like coping mechanisms for that. And you know, and it's not always the right approach for better or worse, is not always to go to HR and air it out because it may not be resolved, it may not be resolved in the way that actually
helps you. But I feel like a lot of us are cobbling together those coping mechanisms now and I wanted to kind of talk to you about that. What do you find working as a woman of color, yourself and from people that you talk to help us kind of get through it.
Yeah, not at all to be self serving, but there is so much that I wish was available when I was going through this. And by the way, as an entrepreneur, you still do. I mean, it's not like I became an entrepreneur and suddenly everyone was like, oh, you know, let me open the doors for you. I've been again overlooked, underestimated regularly. I mean literally, as of like one two weeks.
I've had experiences. When igioma Ulo and I were talking backstage before the launch last week, we shared some really ridiculous examples of how like I mean, she's a New York Times bestselling author and we were talking about experiences where you know, even she had definitely been you know, overlooked and underestimated. So I think the number one thing is when I think about my contribution to this all, it is hopefully, you know, my body of work and others.
As I mean, this is not done in a silo by any stretch of the imagination, but hopefully finding your stories reflected, knowing that you're not alone, knowing that the whatever you may hear in the work place like no, no,
we didn't mean it that way. I mean, I have so many stories of what it was like to be in corporations where they're like, it's all in your head, or no, that's just the way it's done here, or maybe you can't deal with it, or maybe you're not strong enough, maybe you're not smart enough, like those sorts of invalidations. Not it's not a paper cut, by the way, which I mean again the sort of white feminism, corporate feminism movement calls it, you know, death by a thousand
paper cuts. It's not. It's it really feels like sometimes like a knife in your back all the time, quite a lot, I don't want to say all the time, but quite a lot. So having resources that validate your experience reading podcasts, I mean, communities like this I think are really valuable. And because I can think of a time where I needed it and I didn't have it.
And then so I started blaming myself. I started falling prey to you know, all sorts of feelings of I'm not good enough, imposters syndrome, this idea of not belonging. It's something to do with me. If only I fill in the blank, you know, did this, I would be able to progress, I'd be able to cope with it better and having you know, tools around that is really
helpful the tribe, the community. Again, when I moved to Seattle nine years ago, it's it's a very white place, and a lot of the folks that I connected with initially and was sort of introduced to everyone was white. And so when I would talk about my experiences, I could see I was making a lot of white people uncomfortable or like, oh no, no, you know, even if they weren't part of the organization, they'd be like, no, no, no, I mean that it wasn't that. I'm sure, I'm sure
that wasn't what they meant. And that white fragility, I mean, it is not. I don't think it's any surprise that Robin d'angelo's work on white fragility Igeoma Ulow's work on So you want to talk about race and mediocre, A lot of that generates from the Seattle Washington area, which is very white, very liberal.
And I never thought about that, but yeah.
Yeah, And the reason why I bring that up is because the experience is even more toxic. Like I moved from. Before that, I lived in Atlanta as a journalist of business journalists in Atlanta. Before that, I lived in New York and then I've lived in other countries around the world. Seattle is so specific and unique. It is liberal, right.
We we've always voted blue for as long as I think, you know, there are records, and so because there is that sort of liberal umbrella, the slights and that everyday racism quote casual racism isn't fully explored or understood or even even accepted.
Yeah, so I think we're kind of like at the epicenter of white fragility. I just realized I visited Seattle, and I didn't like it. Maybe you're articulating why.
It's but I also took place like.
Park Slope, but bigger way, bigger parkshow Brooklyn, which is like a super gentrified part of Brooklyn here in New York where I am on the.
Other side of the world. Yeah, I mean, kudos to you.
For staying there and fighting the good fight.
Because back to the tribe. You need your tribe, you know, And so I started slowly building that because when you're going through this experience and experiences, you need a tribe. You need people to remind you that it's not just in your head, it's not just you know, if you do more power poses You're not going to just suddenly overcome those feelings that you're feeling. And that became really important and meaningful for me.
Thank you for reaffirming what I am always talking about. It's just it's human beings. You know, it doesn't matter if you've got two, three, five hundred, or just you know five people that you can kind of turn.
To for support.
But it you know what made I remember when I was at my last when I was a senior director at my last company, I recruited and she's still there. Her name's is Matmnga. I love her. She was my assistant content director and I remember I waited like six months to find her. And this was my secret vendetta I was. I knew i'd probably I knew that I was coming on five years and I was probably going to be leaving, or if I was, I just wanted to be sure that my successor I was going to leave things equal.
I wanted a woman of color. I did so.
If Joe Biden was going to go out, you know, like he said, I'm going to go find a black female Supreme Court justice, I was like, I'm going to find a woman of color to replace me unapologetically. I didn't broadcast it, but I knew that's what I was doing.
And I just remember how less lonely I felt having ismit there, and you know, we shared a boss and you know he was well meaning but flawed, and so much of that crap became so much easier to deal with because Smith was there, because I could chat about it, and you know, I think that's what it's about. It's like the small things that happen on a day to day.
Not everything is like file a complaint worthy or quit your job worthy, but it does exhaust then, you know, just having a quick outlet to laugh about that or constantly just like you know, well now you can't do it anymore because you don't have cubicles. A lot of us were working at home but just turning around because it's been sat behind me and just kind of be like did you see this, and like having that bit of connection. Selfishly, that's why I went about building my team.
So it was so chock full of diverse talent because I wasn't going to find that community at the company. I created it myself. And when I was doing that session with makers last week and talking about this particular session was about encouraging leadership and pursuing leadership opportunities, and I could start to hear, you know, a couple of folks who had who were very cynical about it, like
it seems like a lot of work. Are we really gonna you know, it seems like it's even harder to get to the top, So why should we try?
Why bother trying?
All I can do is point back to that time when I was able to create that team and say, that's why it is hard and more challenging than it ought to be for talented folks to find those positions. But the impact that you can have, I.
Mean, so if.
There I can toot my own I'm so proud of that, you know, and I it's one of the I have to work on my responses for this too.
Maybe you did to your in book tour.
Mode, but I want to convince more women of color to go for those leadership opportunities. It's it's the hard thing to do, but the impact, Like if you just think about what ripples you can create, you know, isn't that worth it?
It's so comportant, so worth it, And kudos to you for doing that. I also think what has happened all this while is that there is a sharp elbows mentality. Firstly, the way white supremacy and white capitalist patriarchy has pitted
us against one another. So if you are from different communities of being a woman of color, A lot of women of color, especially newer immigrant women of color like myself, you know, immigrant women of color to this country, they don't associate with being women of color, you know, they don't.
That social and political identity is one that many reject because of that concern of like, no, the way to get ahead and the way to achieve the American dream is to reject that solidarity, to reject my identity, and to assimilate and integrate and uphold white supremacy and perpetuate
anti blackness frankly in many cases too. And so I think really leaning hard into our social and political identity as women of color, showing up for one another, really advocating for one one another, because it takes so much
of work to get to those leadership positions. And I suspect one of the reasons, apart from dealing with that BS day in and day out on the workplace side, is also not feeling like anyone has your back, even within your own community, right, and I would love for us more of us to band together and find ways to support women of color to get into these high positions.
One of the people I interviewed for the book, Aaron Okuno, who is, by the way, based in the Seattle area, you know, is part of a group that really supports women of color candidates running in especially like school board and other state elections, sort of very meaningful positions of political power here in Washington State. But making sure that there really is a group of women of color and some advocates and allies supporting those women of color to run,
because it's not just about money. It's not just about fundraising, It's not just about that. It's about it's the enti it's the visibility process, the communication, all of that, and then it's the emotional labor and support for you knowing that you're going to be again hyper scrutinized and invisible at the same time. Right, women of color candidates here
in Washington State. Some of the stories, some of the few, the few that I've actually spoken to in person have talked so much about experiencing such horrific you know, online abuse and scrutiny and even racism from the media and whatnot, And you really need that tribe behind you, saying I believe in you, power on, You're doing this for us.
Whatever you need, We're here for you. So I hope this book also catalyzes that movement and that solidarity and camaraderie among women of color, different communities of women of color, as well as obviously it's like I want everything. I want all the things. Who knows what's actually going to happen and you know where it actually lands. But I really would like that too.
It's that scarcity trapped to like, oh, if there's only a few of us at the top, there's only so many seats, so we have to kind of compete. I could keep talking to Rechika all day long, but let's take a quick break and we will be right back with more brown ambition. All right, we are back, and here is more of my conversation with Chika Tilcian. I want to talk about even kind of a controversial topic that came up. I know I'm talking about the Makers a lot, but man, not such a fun like focus
group I get to chill out with every week. And one of the controversial things we discussed was I've been pretty honest and open that in my career one of my most meaningful mentors, allies, whatever you want to call him, was a white male at my company, and how I benefited from his endorsement throughout my journey and how and I encourage because I feel like as black women, we tend to we do find our tribe, we find our community, those of us who are smart enough to do that.
If you're not, if you haven't do it, you're you're listening to brown ambitions. So I feel like, you know you're in the right place, you're doing something. But we you know, if once we kind of find our people, you know, our community and people that we can commserate with and just lean on for support, it's also important, I think, for us to be open to even diversifying the people who can help us, and sometimes, of course, I mean so much the people who have the privilege.
My former boss, for example, him recognizing his influence and then helping me and guiding me and kind of offering, you know, speaking my name in rooms.
That he was in.
I can acknowledge that that was a reason I was able to advance. I mean of course I did the great work, but having that endorsement, I realized the power in that and I always so I want to encourage women.
And I'll get your take on this too, that you know, even if you're not in a company where the people with the power and privilege are recognizing that they should reach down and pull us up, that you are open to the idea of reaching up or reaching over to even diversify your you know, your bench of sponsors and allies, people who could potentially help you advance, and unfortunately the math is not in our favor. A lot of them
don't look like us. So you know, what are your what are your thoughts on that?
Is that? Am I?
I don't know.
Am I going to get canceled for saying that.
You're one hundred percent right?
I think because I won't edit it out now if you say I'm doing no.
And and by the way, we should we can and we totally should have different points of view as well. There's no one path to success, especially for women of color, because we are creating it as we walk it. I mean we are literally we are literally flying the plane as we're building it. Right, We're building and flying at the same time because right now there's there's very little there's like a very little runway. Right we've not really
seen much or nearly enough. And no, I think I mean again, the reason why I felt this book was so necessary and urgent is because if more people with privilege and power, white male privilege, socio economic privilege, since male privilege, would turn around and say, actually, where do I have you know, influence, Where are the rooms where my voice is heard and reverberates and whose names can I speak? If more men could do that, if more white men could do that, the world would look so
different because they do that for each other. Right. Research on sponsorship finds three quarters off white men or or of sponsors sponsor people of the same race and gender as them. So, if you're going to be a white man and you're in a position where you can sponsor someone, you can speak someone's name, you know, we should really have this person do this top job or get promoted or you know, lead the big leadership meeting. Three out of four times that's going to be someone of the
same race and gender as them. So you do have to disrupt the way or of us have been conditioned, some say hardwired we know race is a social construct, but still, in many ways we have been hardwired to prefer sameness, and as we have evolved as a society, sameness has meant race and gender, which is ridiculous because if you actually look at it from a scientific and a DNA standpoint, it's like negligible, right, the difference is un negligible. But what I've found is without that awareness,
without that intentionality, it's not going to change. And therefore I'm less. My focus and the sort of what I'm trying to build is less around women of color should reach up and find those sponsors I do. I think it's necessary where you have that ability to do so, where there are opportunities to connect. And therefore, some of what I recommend in the book is make sure as an organization or as a leader, you do have opportunities
to connect people at different levels, off different backgrounds. Make sure they're in each other's orbit so that those relationships can happen. And my focus is much more on the systemic. You know, how can white male leaders or white women leaders make sure that they are also amplifying and sponsoring and making a room and giving credit to women of color Because that's something that's missing in the pie. I
think a lot of it is. You know, when I used to come in and speak about women's leadership, which now I do very carefully and thoughtfully. Before it was like yes, anyone who have me, I'll come in, And now when I do it, I'm very careful not to go into the blame of like you need to do this, and you need to try and get a meeting with this person that person. I mean, I remember how hard
I hustled when I started Candor. I remember how many people I tried to make connections with to try and sponsor me, people in positions of power and leadership, and how many turned away from me. And it was one very specific example of a white man at a very well known organization who literally bad for me. Literally literally went against a lot of the structures that were set up in the organization that did not want me to engage with them. He literally went to bad for me.
He literally went and said, I will only work with Ruchikai, will only work with Candor. You have to figure this out on your end. Yeah, that's what you need those Yes we do, we.
Do, and you're absolutely right, it is and this is why I kind of feel like mailing a copy of this book to every or even not even mailing, but I feel like, as a litmus test for anyone interviewing for a job, ask them if they've heard of Rachica's book, and if it's on if it's on the.
Desk of the CEO, thank you.
And if the answer is yes, and that's probably a safe space for you to to go to work. And what I love in my work recently has it's become it's become cool now to quit and stuff.
But like I was doing it way before, and so.
Were you quitting places where things were just where there was a ceiling, instead of waiting for the ceiling to move. And like I said, for some of us, it's like we don't have time to wait for to catch up to us. Like we have families, we have generational poverty. We may have you know, families relying on us, family members relying on us for children. We're just our damn selves. We just want to have a nice life. Okay, we
want to have the wash or dryer. We want a door dash on the weekends, like we want to get the nice bottle of wine from the top shelf, not the bottom where it's like seven dollars, you know what I mean?
That's fine, so speaking my love life right.
And for us, you know, it's okay to leave a place where you don't have the support. But what I don't want people to feel like is there's not places where you can be supported. It just is a higher bar. It's a higher bar. And that's why it's more important for us than ever to talk to one another. Where are you happy? Where have you been happy to work? And how can I scoop you up.
And bring you over here?
You know? And I loved my last I actually really loved the place I worked for five years. It was a wonderful place. And every I was like, come get this money, y'all.
Come on, I'm gonna get you some equity.
They got sign on bonuses, like I wanted to help other people build wealth in my own little small way. So yeah, I I generally feel optimistic. As much as there's plenty to be cynical about and plenty to be pessimistic about, I generally do have hope for things for women of color in corporate America that things will keep
incrementally proving. At the same time, like I agree with you that we have to sometimes move things in our favor a little bit quicker because we just can't wait for everyone to catch up and make these These changes are not necessarily immediate quick fixes, you know, how to become a more inclusive workplace, right, I mean, they're going to take time. So if it's not there yet, it's go want and get out and go somewhere where it's fine.
You know, absolutely you should go. Literally that I mean, during the whole nicole Hannah Jones Saga, I kept seeing this quote again and again. Right, go where you are celebrated, not just tolerated, and in some cases not even tolerated. I think that is a very important piece of advice
to keep top of mind. And I think because women of color are expected to be grateful, to be you know, fill in the blind cure, like whatever the word is is, you know, submissive or grateful or like, oh I'm just so I'm just so thankful that like someone would give me a job. We're supposed to just be okay with
crappy conditions. Absolutely not. And I understand, I understand, and I recognize and acknowledge the privilege inherent in that statement, which is why I understand like this is not you know, I wish that I wish that every single person and I and I envision a world and I want to be optimistic for a world where every single person has
the opportunity to do that for themselves. I do think that there are a lot of people in between where there is an opportunity to move to better and greater things, and you or the way that you've been conditioned holds you back. And I and I really hope that for folks listening to this you really sit down and think, what are the ways that I can make my dreams come true? Because you know life is, life is short,
We know life is really precious. The time we're living in right now is absolutely wild a in a not good way, right, So yeah, how can you make your dreams come true?
It's so hard?
And I love that you pointed that out because sometimes it's not like any one person sat you down and said you're.
Not going to go anywhere, You're not going to be anybody.
It's never that easy to pinpoint that was the person. So often it's like us being conditioned and then us wielding that abuse toward ourselves, and like the verbal abuse the you know, holding yourself back and how to unlearn that.
I'm like, add to.
That community, your therapist, your career coach, your mentors, whatever you need. I feel like we're never that self doubt, that kind of nefarious, noxious gas of self doubt that we just kind of I don't know, I personally feel like I have a cloud. I'm always trying to keep it at bay, and I just kind of made peace that it's not going to go away. It's just I have to, you know, call it what it is and reck it and then just like shoe it away to
get through the next thing. And I want that, And especially if you're ambitious like we are, You're just it's just the things are only going to get more challenging. That's what we want, right, More challenging, more scary, more opportunity for doubt to creep in. And it's like, how do we unlearn all of that?
How do we channel it? Right? I think there's unlearned and then there's also how do you challenge it and
challenge it and channel it? You know? Because the other thing for me, and this is a little more cultural, but growing up outside the United States, the one thing people will say in common in general about Americans outside of America is people will talk about this amazing confidence that Americans have or the American culture, which we know, like white American culture, like there's a you know what is culture, but there's a there's this perception that to
make it here, you got to be really got to scream from the rooftops, You've got to be really comfortable self promoting, You've got to show up a very certain way, which largely is, you know, essentially like a typical white guy. Right, Like, I know what I'm doing, and I have all the answers, and I actually think, why not as we think about building a better workplace and getting more women of color into senior leadership positions, why not create more leadership styles.
Why not say it's completely okay to be you can totally be a leader and be more quiet and more thoughtful and more introverted. I'm extremely uncomfortable with self promotion this last week, and you know, the weeks leading up to this book and then some of the things I have coming down the pike for me are very difficult, they really, and it's the self doubt is less like I'm not good enough or I'm i don't feel confident in my abilities. I do, but this is just not
the way that I feel comfortable sharing this. I'm a writer, so where I feel comfortable with sitting down and writing the thing, and then that's it. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to get up and talk about how wonderful I am. But it's not because I don't think I'm wonderful. It's because this isn't my medium, this isn't the way that I do it, and so why not as we reimagine workplaces for women of color and leadership for women of color, I would love to
have different styles. I would love for it to be completely acceptable for someone to be like, you know, I don't want to self promote, and I'm not going to do it this way. And then for someone who feels very comfortable self promoting, they do it that way and that's totally fine and acceptable too. And then it's less
about am I confident or not? What do I do to get rid of my self doubt all of those, and it's more about how do I channel this in a healthy way to do the things and make my dreams come true?
Yeah, and I'll just add to that as leaders, recognizing the varied personalities on your team and what various individuals may need to be their best. That was the emotional, invisible labor of being a manager that I don't think is taught, is recognizing how many different people need different styles and I had to force myself to learn how to help them thrive and everyone is a little bit different.
And it was when I realized how much work that was, I was like, oh, no, wonder they don't do this because it's a lot of extra work on me thinking of different ways to communicate and how to host this and how to make you know it was worthy work.
But yeah, I would challenge that to managers to recognize that just because someone in a meeting or someone's personality is a different style, that they may need something else, something more, something less than what other people have in order to get the best out of them, and that we should be supported, you know, in our work environments to kind of succeed in our in our own styles. Like just like you were saying, Rashika told she and I could talk to you all.
Day, we can talk.
I've really I've loved this conversation so much. Thank you so much for joining Brann and Bish, I wish we had more time, but I know you have probably way bigger fish and media to fry, and maybe just a good, nice nap is also a worthy endeavor at the time.
The nap is where I'm probably gonna head. I mean, Mandy, I love I love our conversation and I love being in community because at the end of the day, that feeling of being valued, of being seen off not you know, of not being asked immediately, like what are ten things we can do immediately now to become more inclusive? Which is which is sometimes or which is a lot of the conversation I'm having with more legacy and white red
and white run media is really special. Like to be able to have this conversation and just say, hey, here's how it feels, and this is what you know, this is what we go through, and this is how we cope, and this is how we celebrate each other, and here's how we feel joy and optimism. I mean, that's what's so special about this experience and I really appreciate it.
Oh, thank you so much for joining Brand Ambish And you guys have to go get a copy of Rachica's book Inclusion on Purpose. It is out now, it's gonna let's give bestseller vibes, okay, best seller Sprinkles of Magic. And if you are someone working in corporate America, buy this book, take it to work with you. Leave a copy on who's ever desk where it may be read and they may need to see it. Invite, I mean, Rachika, where can people find you to get candor to get
your amazing insights? I mean to potentially work with you. Go to your website tell us where to go work.
Thank you. I'm very active on Twitter and my handle is r Toulsian so r t u l s h y a N. If you want to check out my website, it's Inclusion on Purpose dot co so dot co and that will lead you directly to my website. It's very easy to get in contact with me. And my hope is you know, with this book and you know, longer conversation for another day. But my hope with this book is that more people, more women of color, know that they can write books, that their voices are valued and heard.
You know, who knows how this book will do, but I would love to see more women of color become best selling authors so that the publishing industry doesn't turn us away and say, you know, I mean, ninety percent of books published are written by white authors, and so I really hope that we can all co create a different future together.
Was that message just for me?
Chide?
Yes, I'm working on it.
Yes, yes, I'm good at do it. Do it? And you're speaking anyway I can part with, any way I can support, truly, But anything that I can do to support you, I'm here. I'm cheering you on.
Thank you.
You're extraordinary and sorry. I can't wait to talk to you again. I feel like if I keep doing what I'm doing right in life, I'll just find myself in your circle and in your world and it'll all be wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing your point of view, sharing your time, sharing your energy with us. Y'all definitely go check out Chika's book again. It's inclusion on Purpose.
It is out now.
If you will have a link to the book in the show notes so you can pick up your copy and more for your friends and family and coworkers. Ratika all the best.
Okay, thank you so much, and to you too,