Why Black People Need a New Blueprint for Capitalism ft. Dr. Rachel Laryea

places that we find ourselves in. It's like, how do we continue the work that so many of us have already been doing and now maybe without the support, but with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how we're experiencing that, but I think that the impact can still happen.

speaking to future Nobel Prize winner. It's fine. I'm very secure in myself, so I can appreciate her light and her light only shines on me, and I am so grateful to have doctor Rachel Laery on Brown Ambition today. Let me tell you about her. Not only does she have a brand new book that is coming out by the time you listen to this episode. You can probably pre order it already, but you should definitely go to the show notes and ground the link to purchase her book.

And the book is called Now this is a huge title, but the book is called Black Capitalists, A Blueprint for what is Possible. It's coming out this June. It should be out soon by the time you're listening to this episode. But doctor, again, doctor Rachel lay is not just an author. Before she put together this incredible book, she created her really unique career path, which I'm going to dive into.

I haven't met many women who've managed to carve out entrepreneurship, writing their own book and still working for a huge financial institution like JP Morgan Chase. But again, doctor Laier, you talked to me saying that yet you earned it. She cut her teeth on Wall Street at Goldman Sachs and then she went on to receive a dual PhD in African American Studies and socio cultural anthropology at Yale University.

I've like heard of it cool. Her ethnographic research aims to understand nuanced forms of black participation in capitalist economies. She is a recipient of the National Science Foundation Research Fellowship Award, and she's also been name dropped by the Ford Foundation for her research, receiving an honorable mention. She's held an adjunct professor appointment at the NYU Stern Business School, and currently she's an asset wealth management researcher at JP

Morgan Chase. And I don't know, just like in her spare time or whatever, she's founded this company. It's called Kellela, which is a lifestyle brand that's based in Brooklyn, where she curates bespoke West and East African travel experiences and has elevated the plantain to the platform. It's always deserved by creative Vegan. And she's here on Brown Ambition because duh have you heard her bio? If I'm not getting doctor lay on my podcast? What are we doing? What

are we doing wrong? Brann and bish Well, welcome to the show, and congratulations on all of these milestones in your career.

capitalist presents for many an identity crisis. It's like, how can you hold affinity to a system that you've been excluded from systematically, And so oftentimes when people define capitalism itself, oftentimes that's very much kind of imbued with feelings of disgruntlement, a lot of financial anxiety, worry. People will talk about capitalism is the root of all evil, the white man's way of keeping us down, all of these different ways

in which people will define it. But for me, I think what's really important, and part of the key argument of the book is if we take capitalism as a political or economic system whereby private actors engage in economic exchange for the purpose of yielding excess capital. In that sense, anyone can be a capitalist or a private actor, and

that's both hopeful and also potentially problematic. Right hopeful in the sense that we kind of take away this racialized aspects that we have around who the capitalist is, who the labor is, and it kind of opens up new potentials around Okay, how can we use the tools of capitalism to create new outcomes outside of the ones that we're so familiar with, namely being within the black community in that labor position and experiencing the harms of capitalism

so deeply, whether it be exploitation, extraction, etc. But then, of course we also know that when you look at the racial wealth gap, who has predominantly been the capitalist, who has predominantly been the beneficiary of capitalism has been

white people. And so when you then take black and capitalists and you put it together overlaying that whole history that I kind of spoke to very quickly, then you have that kind of visceral emotional reaction of this doesn't quite sit right with me, you know, And so so much of the book and the work that I do is around Okay, let's unpack all of this and then let's get to a place of common ground and neutrality

about what is capitalism defined. But then also what I'm offering about what black capitalists and what it means to also black capitalism, which is definitionally to be a black capitalist is to be someone who identifies as a black person and strategically participates in the economy with the intent

to produce social good. So what's really important about that definition is not just about how can you create profitability by strategically positioning yourself and participating in the economy, but it is that other really important part around social good and that kind of consistent orientation to community, which is what allows us to then rethink how the tools of capitalism can be used outside of what we've seen them

be used for. And that's similar to black capitalism, which is very' agnostic, how anybody, private actors, individual are collective can resituate themselves within capitalism with the intention to create

social good. If you take a framework like black feminism, you don't have to be a black person to practice black feminism, but it is kind of an orientation around how you show up in support of others in supportive community as well, and creating a distinction just in that kind of example, to be a black feminist versus practicing black feminism. Similar concept to how you can someone can be a black capitalist, but then also collective can practice black capitalism.

into the community or fund grants for other entrepreneurs? Is it dedicating a percentage of profits to certain causes that benefit our communities? Is that the ideal that you're hoping this book can help shine a light on.

that we might sit in in our daily lives. Some of us might be in corporate America, like myself, And so the questions then become within the seat that I'm seated in what are the opportunities or the access channels that I can create for other folks in the institution outside of it, And I can give examples for how we might think about that. If you're an entrepreneur, some of what you just described those are beautiful examples of how you can reposition yourself within the economy to still

create a profitable business. But then also keeping in mind it goes hand in hand how you create social good as well. I think it's the case that we all have a slice of this capitalist pie, and it's really up to us how we're going to use it and how we're also going to feed each other in that kind of experience, And so regardless of where you sit,

there's always kind of a part to play. And I think that it's less about adjudicating when is enough or how much social goods should I do, but really from just having it as a mindset kind of like a way of life in terms of this is an ethos, a kind of consistent practice and orientation that I have around always asking myself how can I be in service of community, which also requires an abundance mindset, a belief and a trust in each other and that we can

really only get free through being in community with each other. And so those are the kind of core building blocks to then really practice this and create effective change in the long term.

all those things. There's really like an empowerment element to it, which sometimes I think you need because capitalism, ambition, these are two words that tend to drop feelings of like, oh, like you're just selfish, you're greedy, you're looking out for number one. But it's like, no, let's look at these terms and show that they can bring about good. It just matters like who's controlling it. As long as you

control the wealth, you can have so much influence. One of the things that I when I was kind of reading through some of I know you talk to black professionals who are working in corporate America, And one of the stories that resonated with me was the guy who said, and he works in banking, I believe and he said that he feels like he's a spy a little bit, like they think he's one of them. And by one of them, I mean like we's kind of code switching.

We all do that. We show up to work, we talk, we talk real good, and we make everybody feel good that we have a black person on their team, but like never exactly like owning our blackness necessarily because that might be a little threatening, but just being there in the mix. But at the same time, he's like, but I've never forgotten who I am. I know why I'm here.

And it just resonated with me so much because in my corporate career, when I got to a position where I was hiring someone, oh yeah, I mentioned that I work with someone whose last name is Lia. I know another LIAI shout out to Brittany, and she was the first reporter that I was ever able to hire. Once I became a manager, it mattered to me that my

first hire was a black woman. I went on to get the privilege to put together a team that ended up including like I think, thirty staff and a bunch of contractors, and I used to say to myself, I'm like a spy, Like nobody knows I'm taking all the money that they're giving me for these hires, and I am going and finding people of color and women like

and I just I love that there. I want more of us to think of it that way, all here undercover, to create that change in incremental ways, like from within.

generally capitalist structures. But for me, it's like it really matters the orientation that you have when you're in those spaces, because surely, yes, you can exist in these corporate spaces that people have all of this criticism around, But if you have these subversive intentions like alex as you mentioned, that makes a difference. It's like the how and the

why can really shift outcomes. Because I think for him, what was so important was like how can he channel resources to his community by being at the firm that he was, similar to how you're thinking about how can I create a pipeline of access for people to have space in these spaces where otherwise maybe they wouldn't be

considered or overlooked or whatever it is. And so I think when you shift our mindset, it's like, Oh, there's a whole new set of opportunities I think that arise in that, and that to me is like the efficacy and the potential to create new outcomes.

was being sneaky about it. I'm practicing d I in my hiring, but I ain't telling nobody is that, you know what I mean? But it's like when we name it, we kind of give them a target. And I think that's what's happening. And so you're seeing now it's like, well,

let's just get rid of all these DEI programs. And I think that, you know, what we're talking about is like a reminder that if you're still like we're a lot of people were in corporate like, you can still have an impact even if you're not under that umbrella, maybe even more so because we can sneak by. Yes, yes, you know that's the Beverly Hills cop know what's the emission impossible?

and the places that we find ourselves in. It's like, how do we continue the work that so many of us have already been doing and now maybe without the support, but with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how we're experiencing that. But I think that the impact can

still happen. When I first joined JP Morgan Chase, I was the Community Impact team, and that team was responsible for the thirty billion dollar racial equity commitment that came out in twenty twenty after George Floyd's murder, where the firm made very strong commitments around how it was going

to really try to close this racial wealth gap. I was on that team starting in twenty twenty two and really kind of a watch from the inside the kind of process and the journey of a Dee and I effort and initiative go invoke and out of vogue within a period of time. And that was so striking to me to see that to be a d and I practitioner as a black woman, you know, really in service of our black and brown clients, and what that moment meant.

Layer on the affirmative action ruling that came out around that period as well, and it kind of really shifted, not even just kind of the internal stakeholder conversations that were happening around the work that we were doing, which was already challenging because here you are trying to create new ways of working within the business, but now there's this kind of question around legal prudence and due diligence to make sure that we're not making a firm liable

to anything created another layer of complexity, and that prompt in my own kind of professional journey of what are other places I could find myself in? Ultimately wound up in ass wealth management. The work doesn't end. It's like I spend a lot of my time still thinking about how can I create new outcomes for our black clients within the wealth management space.

think that that type of initiative is helpful? You have like this largely white fashion industry who's obviously profited off of our culture in so many ways, but still you see so many few designers of color reach these prominent levels as other mainstream brands and get as much access to the resources as other brands and other fashion houses.

But then you have Vogue kind of centering blackness in the theme for this year, and Black Dandyism really celebrating tailoring and the influence of a very specific time in black culture in the fashion landscape, and which has then given them this huge platform to spotlight black designers and really celebrate that work. What's your perspective on that.

of consistency or sustainability. It becomes a one and done unfortunately, or it becomes something of the zeitgeist. And so all of the more reason that when we're talking about sustainability and what's really going to hold this down in the long term, it really needs to come from us. And so I think it's always how can we anchor on the tools that we can use for ourselves, create those

kind of systems for ourselves. And sure it's like if folks want to shine a light amazing, especially because those spaces have capital and excess and all these other privileges that come with that. It's like leverage it. I'm all about how can we leverage and service of our community. And so I think keeping that kind of maybe sobering perspective in mind that we never know how long those

opportunities will last. But what we do know is we have us at the end of the day, and so we have to make sure that we're locked in on that and we're good and anything else is I think additive to that.

actually have an impact. You think about lunch counter boycotts and obviously the boycotts during the Civil rights movement, But is this an example of how we can be black capitalists and using it?

four years, every two years, whenever there's an election. We vote every day with our wallet, every single day, multiple times a day, and that is as powerful a vote, if not more able, and really am the service of getting us the things that we want, creating the outcomes that we're wanting, and so so often and because of just the you know, the structures that have been in place that have limited the access that we've had to

systems and opportunities around ownership, consumerism has really been the avenue that's been available to us. And so when you think about that. It's often been from a place of a lack of agency. See, it's like, oh, this is what we've been relegated to, this is what we've been given, and so this is how we'll participate in economy. But there's still agency to be realized even in a consumerist approach. It's like I choose where I will spend my dollars.

And so I think what's so beautiful about this moment, which I think is new, is that we have struggled to really get to a unified place and really speaking from one voice when it comes to how we use our money within the community. And so you know, if people don't want to, I'll put it this way, whether it be allies or not. I think white people have an incredible ability to consume a lot of qualitative data

about racism without changing their behaviors. But then when they are presented with the effects of economics, like not having access to our capital in different ways, that creates a new paradigm where okay, we're listening in new ways, and so I think that's really important to keep in mind. And the more that we can come and connect from a place of unification in that, the better and so I think that's so important, especially because that hasn't always

been the case. And so even when you think about this from a global context and you want to say something like pan Africanism. One of the people that I interview in the book, he is based in Ghana. He has an investment company and has built out a company really focused on technology at the center of healthcare and real estate across the African continent, and so much of what he says is what's really important is when you

think about how countries negotiate with each other. It's a very different paradigm for Ghana right as a country to negotiate, you know, political terms with say the United States. But what's different is if you have fifty four African countries with how many of our people, how much additional resources in capital per person accounted for in that context to

then be negotiating terms. It's like when you move from a place unification it creates new outcomes, and I think we're seeing that in this moment, but we can also see it in a really global scale as well. It's

not just situated in an American context. And so I'm excited about that, but I still think there's work to be done when it comes to how we talk about consumerism, ownership and relating it back to our practice of capitalism and really reorienting our mindset around how we can be capitalists and participate as capitalists within capitalism but from a different place, and create new outcomes in that process.

I learned it when I was at Goldman. These institutions we know are not perfect by any means, But then for me, similar to what we were talking about before, it's like, how can I use this in service of

myself and of my community. I know that, especially when I was in grad school, I thought I was going to become an academic, and I quickly became disillusioned with that idea, just seeing the quality of life, the challenges that come especially with being a black woman in academia, the standards that we were held to, the lack of promotion we get so often, and of course so much of that translates into corporate America as well, but just

opportunities to acquire resources for me personally, just more opportunity there. And so I said, Okay, if I know that I'm going to make that trade off, it's like what are the what's the what's the dance that I'm always playing? And that's really what it is for me. Where it's you know, it's not a perfect place, but I have been able to find a really good team of people

that I genuinely enjoy working with. And then of course I also have my motives of how can I create new outcomes for black folks within the context of wealth management and use pol do there exactly? As a researcher, Yeah, So I cover within wealth management the research that allows us to create mental models around our clients that then informs the kinds of products that we create and ultimately

market to our clients. And so within wealth management, we have advice services where someone might say I want to work with a financial advisor, and there are different product offerings for that. And we also have self directed investing online investing where people can kind of self service and we have a product for that. And so I and a lot of time I'll go to people's homes, I'll interview them, I'll talk to them, hey, like, how do you think about wealth? How do you think about investing?

How has it changed over time? I, as a researcher, listening and gathering all of this data across all of these different people that I speak to then say to our product partners and our other stakeholders, this should be the direction with which we strategically think about the buildout of the products that we have. So that's the kind of work that I do. And is unsurprising is that when you're talking with a bunch of really affluent, high

net worth folks. The majority of them historically have been white men, And so when I say I'm going to people's homes, is usually white men's homes that I'm going to,

and I'm talking to them. But I'm always thinking through how can I create opportunities to interview black folks, to bring them into the office so people can see them, to see that black wealth is also a reality, and to create just considerations for different experiences that have been really just anchored on this one experience within the business.

And so that for me is always my kind of call to action while I'm in these spaces that are make no mistake giving me resources to live the life that I live, But it's really how can I use it in service of more than just myself?

little corporate spies, because it matters, it really does. All right, go be anti anti because for real, that's the most I learned about you. I'm like, oh, you're good people.