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dot com slash Reboot to sign up today. That's m A N d I money dot com slash Reboot. Don't be playing and spelled my name wrong. It's Mandy with an I. Okay. If I'm gonna call y'all bea fam, you gotta spell my name right. Mandymoney dot com slash Reboot spots are limited and you don't want to miss this opportunity. Remember, bafam, your dream job is closer than you think, but you're not gonna get it unless you take action and start taking the small steps that can
get you there. Visit Mandy money dot com slash Reboot now and let's get started on your next big career move. Hey, hey, ba fam, we have some company in the studeo today. This has been a long time coming and I can't think of a better way to kick off the year, especially when Brown Ambition fam, y'all have been so generous and kind to let me peek into the window of your financial stressors, Like what is keeping you up at night? What is getting y'all stressed when it comes to your finances?
Is it housing? Is it groceries? Is it jobs? Is it transportation? And I have to say, I'm going to share some of those survey results with y'all, but because of the results, I just knew I had to do an episode all around the dirty D word debt, debt, debt, debt, debt, y'all. One of the most viral clips from Brown Ambition of twenty twenty four was when I Mandy Woodrow Santos, raised my hand and I said, yeah, I'm in a bad
financial place too. I'm in a tough financial spot, like housing is so incredibly expensive, taking care of these babies is so incredibly expensive. It's like I don't have one mortgage, I have three because childcare right and be a fam. Overwhelmingly, y'all were so compassionate, but you also shared your stories, and that's why I decided let me actually do a survey of our audience. It has been a long time, and because of that survey, like I said, I just
knew that I wasn't alone. And Brown Ambition was literally created so that we could have a non judgmental table to come to. Y'all can feel like you're sitting across from your sister friends and we can get through the tough times together. So in twenty twenty five, to kick off the year, I had to invite some friends along for the journey as well, and I couldn't think of a more incredible pair than the two women who are in the studio today. So let's give a warm ba
fan welcome to today's company. We have Dasha Kennedy, aka the Broke Black Girl. Y'all may know her from these Internet streets. Dasha has been a guest on Brown Ambition before, and today she is here. She's a trailblazing financial activist and educator who's committed to transforming the world of finance into a more equitable and accessible space for women, and she is joined by her partner in crime for the day, Natalia Brown. If y'all haven't heard of Natalia, you must
get to know my friend, my new friend. Now. She has spent on at nearly a decade now working at the National Debt Relief. She is the chief Compliance Officer and Consumer Affairs Officer at National Debt Relief. And Natalia and Dasha are here today because DAYSHA partners with National Debt Relief and I want to talk to y'all about the word that is keeping me and OURBA fam all
up at night. So we're going to talk through, hopefully a little bit about how the heck a company like National Debt Relief even works because I think I ton't to tell you when we first met. I have I have some questions. Debt relief agencies get a bad rap. There's a lot of confusion about what they do what they don't do. So I want to get to the nitty gritty of like how can y'all help consumers. And then, Dasha, you're always giving incredible finance tips to your audience and
real world talk. I know because you're raising two boys. We all have two boys each. Do we decide that that's that's a crazy coincidence? And I know that you've got some real incredible tips for our audience as well on how they can start tackling their debts. So, without further ado, welcome ladies.
Thank you for having us.
And just for the say hi va vam. So can each of y'all just say a few words so that people can get used to your voice, because don't you know, when like you're on a podcast and you hear three different people, you're like, who that whod so day? Should you go first?
Well, I'm Deisha Kennedy, creator of the Roqueg Girl. I'm super excited to be here today just to talk about it too. Was like you said, I think that within itself gets a bad reputation, and we'll really talk about it. We find out that it's not this boogieman that has been made out to be.
I don't believe you. I think it absolutely is a boogeyman and it's on my back daysha. Okay, So Dasha got that real southern where are you from again?
From the Middlewest? From Saint Louis, Missouri born and raised.
Oh Saint Louis. I was like, it's country, but it's not. It's that nelly country. Okay, gotcha. But now you're in Atlanta or word, yes, you're in the A Okay, all right, get a little southern flavor, all right, Natalia? All right, your turn my turn.
So I'm Natalia. I just go by that most of the time. And I love that you said that Mandy, debt doesn't have to be a boogeyman, but I know it feels that way. But all you need is a plan, and it always feels better. Once you have a plan, you know what direction you're going in. And there is a lot of stigma. There's a lot of stigma around debt itself, around debt relief companies, what we do, what we don't do. And the reality is that there are laws that you know are in place to protect consumers.
I am that is my job is to protect our consumers, and I'm always putting people first. So I think we can talk about that at length. And I hope you feel better at the end of it.
Oh that's kind. I hope that y'all feel better too, but at the very least feel better because you are not alone. So according to our survey, and I'm happy to hear nat if you guys have done any data, But like, we get it, people are in debt. Like the economy right now for me is like, yeah, businesses are making money, but they're making money because things are so so much more expensive and us underneath that, you know,
like everyday working class Americans, we are getting squished. Over fifty percent of y'all said you were somewhat worried about your finances, twenty percent said you're very worried, and there's another twenty percent that are extremely worried. So that means literally everybody who listens to the show is a little bit at least somewhat worried about their finances. And so many of you guys are very worried. And number one on the list of biggest sources of financial stress, can
you believe it's paying down debt? Fifty eight percent of our listeners, more than half, say that paying down debt is the biggest source of financial stress. Now stress. I love that book The Body Keeps the Score, And I just know that that stress is not just about you know, something that's weighing on you that you know gives you a little bit of heartburn during the day, but it can literally make you physically ill to think about this debt.
And in my case, over the years, it can make me feel like frozen, don't know what to do, don't know where to turn. So nat I'm curious because I'm gonna call you net though you said I could. I'm curious if you could talk about what it's like when people come to National debt relief in what sort of like mental state are they in at the time, and how do you guys start helping them.
There is a full range. There's fear, there's anger. I think stress manifests itself very differently for different people, So we're very much trained to kind of acknowledge that. Right, some people are embarrassed because they have the good job, they've had the good life, and it's really hard to say, like, yeah, I make one hundred thousand dollars, but I'm also way over my head, right. Sometimes it's you know, as your income increases, your expenses increase, or you have emergencies. So
we have people like that. We also have people who may not make enough, or they've had a divorce, or their child has gotten sick. Medical reasons are a lot of reasons why a lot of people go out of debt and have to rely on credit cards as well. So they come to us in very very different ways. But at the end of the day, everyone wants the same thing is to not have that stress of having to figure out where the money is going to come from to lower the cost of their interest and all
of the debt that they have. So it's at the end of the day, the plan that we give people gives everyone hope, and I think that's what we try to offer as much as possible as hope and a plan.
So what actually does national debt relief do? So I'm calling your number and am I going to hear from that? Is it going to be like, Hey, this is not I feel you? What's going on? Like? What is that process like? And what kinds of services do y'all offer?
Well?
I hope so someone on the phone won't be me, but it will be someone on the phone that is welcoming human or not like change a human, not a computer, not a AI voice, because that's the real thing these days. An actually human person will answer the phone, ask some very simple questions and really understand what the debt landscape is, like what is the unsecure debt? Is a credit cards? Is it medical debt? Is a reprocess debt? Is it
basically just unsecured. We'll take a look at that profile, look at how much you're paying in minimum balances, and then get that info.
Are people is it like you're filling out a form with all of your accounts and then you guys have like a portal.
Yes, with your the client's permission, we will pull credit verify everything while the client can sell us send us a statement of all of their debts, so they do have access to a portal. It will show them everything that they have. It will give them options around what program payment makes sense for them, because that can also be flexible depending on how long you want to be
in a program. And the ultimate goal is to get that total debt reduced by settling one debt at a time, sometimes two at a time with a manageable monthly payment. So that's the process. It's really customized towards each individual, so there's not a one size fits all plan for anyone.
But debt settlement is the goal.
That settlement is a goal debt reduction. So let's say to tenthou some dollar debt our goals to try to save as much money on that debt by negotiating with that creditor. And sometimes it's a lumsome repayment, sometimes it's over terms, but it's always going to be a reduction of that ten thousand dollars so our goal is to at least get it down to five thousand plus our fee.
So when you're someone like, how do you know when you have enough debt or the right kinds of debt to be a good candidate for debt settlement? And I can go ahead and describe what I think of debt settlement as and then you tell me if I'm right or wrong, because I'm kind of playing the part of
a regular person. And so the way I did manage a content team for like five years, and we've heard about this stuff all the time, but whatever I forgot, But debt settlement to me is like, especially if you're just a consumer and you're being pursued by you know, let's say it's a hospital or it's a creditor credit card company for a past do debt and you call them up and you're like, I know, I owe you
a thousand dollars. I can't pay it. I could pay you for hundred, and they're like, no, maybe five hundred, and then you you'll pay a lump sum and they'll, you know, go about their their day. Did I get that right?
Almost? Sometimes that five hundred can be broken up over twelve months, So I'll give you a ninety percent you pass.
Oh nice, Well, lump sum payment was what my That's like the three words that keep coming to my mind is like, settle your debt. But it's but you have to have the cash on hand for a lump sum, so it's good to know. Potentially you don't, you can get a payment.
A flexibility that we offer, so if it's available, sure, but it's usually the best interests of our clients since there's multiple debts, to break those settlement amounts over time so that we can get things moving on each credit a little bit faster.
Have you ever used debt settlement yourself, Dasha, or had to settle debts?
No, well, I'll take that back, yes I did. So my experience was settling with debt was me trying to figure it out on my own. And so I'm just going to tell you what my experience was. It was me coming home one day from work. I had groceries in hand, and someone called my phone and it was a debt collector and it was a very threatening call and it was almost like, if you don't pay this debt, we're going to report it to the police. So I
was extremely scared. Immediately paid it, never heard anything else about it. Now, I was in my early twenties. This probably could have been a scam, It probably could have been real. But this was just where I landed simply because I didn't know. And I'm sure that's not how debt settlement works now that I know better, but back then I ran into that a lot. So just putting myself in the shoes of someone that was just starting off. I'm sure a lot of people get calls like that.
They get calls from debt collectors probably are more aggressive than what we would like, and if we don't know what our options are, we fall victims to what we think is debt settlement. But as Ned explained, we now know that it is completely different and more than that.
Yeah, so Dashauld, When was that was that pre like consumer Financial Protection Bureau post, you know, like after the recession?
This was I am I'm thirty six now, so this had to be around in my early twenties. Okay, this had to be in my early twenties when this happened. And again I was just so afraid that I just immediately paid it. And I was young, very new to learning anything about money. I knew that it was a debt that I owed, but I didn't know my options, I didn't know who to call. I didn't feel comfortable asking for it. You know, it's a whole stigma around asking for help. So when I got the call, I
just wanted the problem to go away. So I just paid whatever they told me to pay, And till this day, I can't even tell you if that actually came off my credit, if I actually saw anything from it. I just made the payment.
So yeah, I mean, in that situation, it is super stressful. First of all, that sounds really that sounds like harassment. It sounds illegal. And Natalia, what would you say to someone today if they were getting those types of calls and didn't know what to do, if you could like be a magician and like you know, Genie in a bottle poof show up in front of them, what would you tell them if they're on the.
Phone with absolutely illegal, especially today. It may not have been when when Dasha was getting those phone calls, but the FDCPA is an act that passed that actually protects consumers against threatening phone calls from collectors. Specifically, you can't call during certain times so they can't call you at midnight anymore. They can't show up at your house there.
I actually heard some really threatening stories from some of our clients in the past as well, So they're really good rules in place to make sure that harassment doesn't occur, and if it is, know that it's illegal and that there is an act to protect against it. And I wouldn't pay anything. Like Daisha said, there's a lot of fraud and scams going on these days. I would verify that that dead is even yours and that it's a reputable company that's trying to collect from you in the first place.
Okay, so many things there. So two things, what are some signs it's a fraud? And two I want to talk about how do you actually go about that debt verification? Because I know the textbook way of doing that that CFPB has on their website, but I'm just curious in reality, how does it work?
Well? Well, so, one, you can always pull your credit record at least once a year. It's always free. I'm not going to vouch for any apps, but there are definitely lots of apps out there that will give you access to your credit information. So one verify that it is your debt and then two, I'd like to call people back. So if I get a phone call from someone, I'm like, okay, well, what's the number where I can
call you back? I can't talk right now. You don't have to be really obvious about it, but you also want to make sure that when you call back it is actually that company. You can look up their website and usually you'll get some form of written documentation. When there's a creditor, they always mail something. So if you don't have a physical document and the number doesn't quite make sense when you do like a Google look up and it's like someone's Google or voice number, that's not legitimate.
People don't collect through Facebook Messenger either, right, It's usually a phone call or an actual letter. So be aware of people sending email saying I'm collecting on this debt. That's generally not accurate either.
Or a text message yeah.
Or a text message. Don't click any.
Links even in your text now, okay, So now the debt verification that doesn't have to be a formal process. It literally is just like, does this debt sound like it's yours? And you can just check that by going to yeah, like using a credit report app. You know, going to Annual Report Annual credit Report dot com and downloading all three of your credit reports for free, like you said you can do once a year. You know, there's credit karma, there's Equifax, like all these different credit
bureaus now and banks themselves. If you don't have a credit report, you're just not trying hard enough because like they're just handing them out on this street corners basically, now, okay, all right, So how do I know I'm in the How do I know it's time? Like I can't manage this and I should ask for help from an organization like National Debt Relief.
I love that question because debt relief is not for everyone. I actually like to dispel that where lots of people think that it is. It is for the consumer who is contemplating bankruptcy, but they're not quite there yet. So there's different types of debt relief where maybe if you can still qualify for a loan and your credit score is still where it needs to be, that might be
an option for some people. If your credit score is already in danger and you're not going to be able to qualify for a consolidation loan and credit counseling from a long term perspective, you're still paying a full debt. You're still paying interest even though it's reduced. May not be an option for some people. So then the next thing would be debt relief. So that's where you're making
your minimums or just above the minimum. It's going to take you thirty forty years to pay off, you know, seventy five hundred dollars in debt because you can barely make those minimums. So our program will basically say, you know, if your minimums are adding up to seven hundred dollars a month, maybe we can get a program payment that's three hundred and fifty dollars a month, so we can work towards settling those debts, and it immediately gives some
cash flowback. So it's really a cash flow issue and a long term kind of goal that you have to make for yourself. It's I want to get rid of my unsecure debt versus I want to keep my credit score. Sometimes we aren't concerned about credit. We're concerned about getting people out of debt right, and then you can rebuild credit faster than you can with bankruptcy. So that's ultimately the goal and the consumer that we like to work with.
So those are like the Big three. I guess four you have sort of like debt consolidation, like a DII debt consolidation. So like in my experience, you can if you have good credit, you can leverage that and get like a fixed rate personal loan, you know that you can use to pay off some debt, and then you have one payment versus how three or four however many no credit cards you've paid off, that's an option. Then
you have credit counseling. So credit counseling. Can you describe that for me, because I'm not even sure if I can tell the difference between credit counseling and like debt relief.
So credit counseling, you're still paying full balance, right, So what credit counseling does. It says, we'll still give you a one type of payment, one payment per month. However, you're still going to pay interest, So we'll take your interest from the twenty something percent that you had. Maybe we'll give you ten percent, whatever deal that they can
get with your creditors. So if you all ten thousand, you're still paying ten thousand plus interests and that will take however much time, right, and if you fail out, you miss a payment, there's really negative consequences to that, right, so you actually start right back to where you are. The interest comes back to your accounts, and it's kind
of a cycle that you end up starting again. So if someone is looking at credit counseling, you have to be really sure you can make those months payments so that you don't have to stop from the beginning all over again. The difference with debt relief is you we aren't reducing any interest. We are taking that balance when you enroll. Let's say it's ten thousand dollars, we are looking to reduce that amount to about fifty percent, which
would be about five thousand dollars. And whether that's a lump or over time, that is all you're going to pay. Then that account is closed. It is done. Versus you know, a longer term situation and credit counseling. So one is a little bit faster than the other.
So even if it's like I have a ten thousand dollars credit card balance and maybe it's spread across three cards, through debt relief, I could or y'all could negotiate that down to like five thousand dollars but there would be no interest or that would be like inclusive of any interest, Like I wouldn't be that five thousand is not going to go off and like continue growing as I pay it down? Right, Interesting, how do you guys manage that?
What actually happens behind the Wizard of Oz curtain? What y'all do?
It's not working?
We basically when a client enrolls, that's the balance that we work with, right, So there might be interest that does accrue, but when we look at that and when we give a quote to a consumer, we're basing it off the day that they enrolled into our program. So when we get a settlement, that's what we aim to do. It's a matter of building the relationships with our creditors.
There's leverage, right. We have hundreds of thousands of clients, So we do a lot of work to make sure that we can negotiate the best rates for our consumers because we actually have leverage for our consumers because there's such a big client base that we can work with.
Interesting, what are some of the biggest clients that you guys do work with?
Do you mean banks or.
Banks or is it like credit issuers lenders?
We work with lenders. We work with first party banks, we work the debt collection agencies, And there's this thing called debt buyers. Those are people that buy debt that couldn't be collected on before and it kind of gets sold over and over and over again. We work with them as well. So anyone who is an issuer or is collecting on unsecure debt, we work with them.
Okay, so because you guys have such a big portfolio, I'm Mandy, I enroll in debt relief. Then you can say it's are you even like calling up my personal creditor and talking about me and my debt? Or is it like I'm calling on behalf of the seventy five consumers. I have all their information and we want to get their debts collectively down.
It depends on what's best for the consumer. It really does depend because each issuer and collector has different rules and parameters. So there are definitely times where it's an individual like this is the person that I'm helping right now. I actually used to be a negotiator. And there are other times where a debt buyer, for example, might say, hey, we've had this on our books for a really long time.
We'll give you a really low percentage if you can give us at least however many so we'll go through our database and try to figure out who can afford the kind of you know, fire sales settlements, right, So it could be a little bit of both. It just depends on what's best for the consumer and what's the best timing how much money is available. There's a lot of different factors that go into it.
Are there sometimes, like we've talked about older debts before, Are there sometimes, like for either of y'all, where it doesn't make sense to like settle older debts because maybe they're about to fall off your credit report.
It depends. Different states have different rules unfortunately, so there are states where, yeah, it doesn't make sense. There are other states where you know, the statute limitations that I think is what you're referring to maybe different. Some places a seven years, some places it's three years. So it depends on the state, and it depends on when you last major payment, when you last made contact. Each state
has weird rules. So sometimes yes, sometimes now so we definitely have a database that kind of tells us what it doesn't make sense.
Got to have like PTSD from putting together a crazy chart. When I was managing that content team, I was like, let's do a chart, and it's going to be every state and every type of consumer debt, and we're going to tell you what the stat sheeted limitations are. Can you imagine what a pain? So you're in compliance, you know, it's like, I see what? So depending like, do you work with people in every state across the country?
Just about?
So, there's maybe five states that we don't operate in, but for the most part, we are in every single state, or at least can offer debt really for every single state.
Yeah, okay, gotcha? All right, Now, how do y'all make money? So does a business?
As a business, we do charge your fee. And I'll say, like some people will say, I might jump the question, why are you charging your fee? There's free services out there, and that's absolutely true, but they can't scale. So in order for us to do the work that we're doing for as many people as we're doing, we need operating costs. So that's where that fee comes in. So that fea set, it doesn't fluctuate. It's told upfront and we actually bake it into that monthly program payment so that it's not
an additional cost on top of anything else. We give you one quote. We are not going to ask you for anything else. We're not going to change fees on you. So it can be anywhere between fifteen and twenty five percent of the amount that you enrolled, right, So even if it increases, we're not charging anymore.
Okay, does it often increase? Because that's one thing about debtman, when you're trying to get sometimes if you don't and we'll get to this, get to the heart of the issue, you can just be coming back six months later like I got some more debt.
How Yeah, it happens. Well, reporting on credit reports it's not always accurate, right, Sometimes there are things that are not reporting that pop up later that we'll add to the program for our consumers. There are other times when it actually happened to me when I bought my first like furniture set, and I didn't understand that that zero percent interest for twenty four months and then it all hit me at once. So I got myself into a little bit of child And that will happen as well.
So those promotional kind of debts that people think are really great and then you get hit with a bunch of ventures all at once, and that balance kind of doubles overnight. That happens as well. And then, to be quite honest, people can find themselves in desperate situations and may may need to swipe that card while they're in the program, and it happened to be still open because they blew a tire and they couldn't afford that emergency.
So there are a bunch of different reasons why it might increase, But we tend to just work with each individual consumer and have those conversations depending on what the situation is.
Yeah, that was something that I had that was like an idea that I had about about debt really from before, is that you have to close get your accounts closed, like you can no longer use them. Is that the case you really? Sometimes?
But again I like, I'm not going to present like life does not happen.
Yeah, but you actively close the accounts, they're potentially still out there.
They're potentially still out there, and the creditors will eventually close them as they pass too.
I mean I opened what I opened a zero balance, Sorry, I have zero percent interest credit card. I don't know. A couple of years ago, I think it was when we were buying like furniture or something like that or some kind of big purchase paid it off and then I was like, well, I'll just keep the line of credit open, and the bank was like, no, you can't have that. We close in it.
They just took making a decisions whenever they feel like it. That's the other thing. Read the fine print when you open up credit cards too, because they do reserve the right to reduce your credit limits, which sometimes, yes, puts people in a lot of trouble, especially if they were carrying a balance.
Yeah, or like you know, that's such a huge part of your credit score is your available balance versus how
much debt you're carrying. And it may look really cute when you have a lot of available credit, and so when they reduce your credit limit, now it's like, oh shoot, maybe you did have a twenty percent utilization rate and now it's like fifty percent, and you may see your score go down and not even know why, you know, Is there anything else people should know about debt relief or any pros and cons that you want to cover before we take a little break and come back and
talk about general debt tips and how to get out of debt.
Sure, I encourage people to do their research. I like to say that people look at Amazon reviews before they buy something more than when they are looking for their financial products. So be just as diligent. Don't take my word for it, don't take Dash's word for or even Mandy's, like,
do your research. Look at the BBB, look at CFPB, go to the review site, see what other consumers have to say, because, like you said, there's a community of people that have already experienced this and they can actually speak more truth and be more credible when it comes to what to look for. And just make sure that these are accredited companies, even if it's not national debt. Really, just make sure you work with an accredited and reputable company.
Okay, accredited? Okay? Oh and I know what I forgot to ask about bankruptcy. You mentioned bankruptcy. So like if you said, of your someone who's considering bankruptcy but you haven't filed yet, debt relief may be a step before that. Why is that in particular, because with bankruptcy there's a potential, depending on which version of it that you file, where you could maybe get a lot of your debts forgiven and whole.
Yeah. So the truth of bankruptcy is there's an upfront cost to bankruptcy and that can be a small amount anywhere to a very large amount, depending on the type of attorney that you acquire. Right, A lot of people will always right. Not people don't always have that out of pocket expense upfront. So that's one hurdle to clear. The second hurdle to clear is even if you pay that fee, there is no guarantee that you will qualify
for bankruptcy. So, like you said that, there's two. There's one that is really evasive, where every asset that you might have may be taken away to put towards your debt if you even qualify for that. That's basically what they call a clean slate. But it's not. It's very painful.
Right.
If you own anything, whether it's a diamond ring, a wat home, a car, it is up for someone else to determine whether or not it's going to be sold to pay off your debt, and you have no say. The other version is a payment plan, where again a lot of people will fail out of that payment plan. You paid it up to the front attorney, you get a payment plan, you miss a payment, you start all over again. You failed out of bankruptcy, so now you're at square one. If you want to try to file again,
you pay those fees again. So I like to say, try debt relief before you go to bankruptcy because the repercussions. Even if you are successful bankruptcy to rebuild your credit, it's seven to ten years that you're going to have that stain on your report. So what are your long term goals? If you're trying to buy a home in
ten years, bankruptcy is probably not the best. But if you do debt relief, you could be out of debt within twelve, twelve to forty eight months, start rebuilding your credit much sooner, and put yourself on a path to home ownership or whatever your other financial goals are.
Yeah, it sounds like there's so many, Like I mean, it doesn't sound like there. It's one of those trickiest The trickiest things is which option is best for me. It's so nuanced and any of these options may be right for you. So like credit counseling, debt settlement, you know, filing bankruptcy, even just floating out with debt consolidation, loans or whatever. These are all just like different options that I'm hoping by having this conversation, we're opening Yell's minds
up to it. However, I think it's going to be a very personal choice and net so if someone calls National Debt Relief, they don't have to. There's no pressure to like get a plan today, right, but it can be one of the steps they take toward figuring out if it is a good fit for me.
Yeah, it's absolutely a free consultation and we actually do discuss all the options and give you that information. And it's up to the consumer decide if what option is best for them, but we do provide all that information having Oh I love.
That, Okay, yeah, because you know, sometimes it's like if you go into a restaurant and you see the menu and you're like, I don't like any of this stuff. It's so hard to like go I don't know if you have that, Like someone listening is like, oh, no, you're just giving me a secondhand anxiety. But having to get up and be like, I'm so sorry, I don't want this kind of food and leaving can be Have you done that?
I have?
Seeh I love that, But you're a negotiation queen like me, so great. All right, so let's take a little break and when we come back, I'm going to get Dasha in the hot seat because miss broke black Girl, you need to help us not be broken anymore. Okay, please get us reach a right you're Abauba fan. All right, I am back with my guests, with our company. We got Dasha Kennedy, the broke Black Girl, and we have Natalia Brown of the National Debt Relief What is it
the National Debt Relief? What or my message?
Relief?
National Debt Relief? Yay in the studio. So, oh my god. I mean, we've been talking about debt, y'all, and it's been a little uncomfy, but I'm already starting to feel personally a little bit better and at least like let's kick off some conversations. You know, as we've always said, when it comes to financial advice, you want to get it from a personal, personal source, someone who knows your unique situation. So all of this content, all this conversation
is just for educational purposes, y'all. We're trying to help, trying to give y'all some questions, to ask, some ideas, just so that you can actually start tackling the debt that you may be carrying. That is, like I said, keeping snatching your sleep away from you. Right, Okay, So Dasha, talk to me about what happens when you're staring at
a bunch of debt. And we've talked about some solutions to like getting rid of the debt, but how do we get to the underlying what usually is happening underneath that debt that is causing it? And how do we like nip that in the bud so it doesn't happen again. And you can't tell me I have to give up my children because I know they are the source of my financials dream but I love them. What do we do?
I think the first thing that's really important is for us to understand that this being dead or dealing with debt is something that we all go through. It's just one piece of our personal finance journey. And I think when we humanize that, it makes dealing with this so much easier. When we realize, like, okay, debt is a tool. It doesn't define who I am. I don't have to feel bad or guilty or shamed because I've landed in debt. So I think when you were first looking at all
of your dead looking at all of your numbers. That's the first thing to realize, Like, I'm not a bad person. This, this is fixable. I can't come out of this, And so I think it's first important to just recognize that when you are sitting in front of all of the notices, the phone calls, the voice messages, recognizing that this may be a bad or uncomfortable situation, but it doesn't make me a bad person, and this can be fixed.
And what is it usually? Like, I mean, is it as simple as you're Like, let's say it's a classic situation where you're just not making enough to meet your expenses,
Like how does that? How does And especially if you're someone who used to have more than enough, but like your expenses have increased and you may not feel comfortable like with the idea of budgeting and like having to figure out something different, Like what's your advice to someone who's maybe not so used to that, and like to get them to actually start looking at their budget and what they can trim or what they can add or take away so that they can actually start chiseling away,
chipping away at that debt.
Yes, I think that what's most important is to take out the assumption, take out guess work. A lot of times when we are trying to figure out what we have going on with that, we're usually guessing like, oh, I think I owe this amount, I think I have
this much money coming in. So the first thing is to remove all of the guessing and actually sit down and create a list of all the desks that you owe, the balances, who you owe, how much you owe them, your other expenses that you have going on each month. And I know that that sounds so redundant.
Because terrible that yes.
Yes, and we hear it a lot, and it's like one of the most repetitive pieces of personal financial advice, but it's because it's the most honest thing. The only way that you're going to figure out where program is going to be best for you, what your next step is going to be, is to actually know exactly what is going on. And I tell people all the time,
you only have to do this once. You only have to push through this uncomfortable feeling one time, making the list, creating the you know, gathering the numbers and all the information. You only have to do that one time. So I think it.
You can do it one time, and then you just like stress about it and then you look away, and then you go about your life and then you're like, maybe we should get that spreadsheet.
Yes, you get you can't just can't stop there. Because what I like to think too is like, Okay, i can let this hover over my head, and when I'm out trying to have a good time, I'm thinking about how much credit card that I got. When I'm out at my son's football game, I'm thinking about how much credit card that I got. Or I can't create the plan that one time, and I can create the plan, create the list, know everything that's going on, start working
towards getting rid of it. And then when I'm out and I'm living my regular life, this isn't hovering over me. So it is uncomfortable, it's not easy, and it's not fun. But you only have to do the hardport once.
I don't know about just once. It's not like you someone still got to pay it off, right, and it's all right? I got my list and now what Dasha, Now what do I do with it? Now? It's like all these different due dates and minimum payment amounts and maybe there's some zero percent stuff that's going to expire soon, so you gotta know what to do with that. What next?
I think the next step will definitely be to figure out what your plan of action is. What's going to be your plan to start paying off some of the debt, to start chipping away at it. And so again, when we have these conversations and we talk about debt management or debt repayment, there's normally two things that always come up, and it is the avalanche and snowball method. So I always feel yes, yes, So for me, if anyone is familiar with my content, I am the queen of chipping
away at things in small increments. Why because it is the motivation that sells me this. Having a bunch of debt hovering up your heads, that's not always motivating, that's not always exciting. But if I can find a way to chip away at this in small incremation or just make small changes, that gives me something to look forward to each day. So that takes away being scared of
the boogeyman of the large number. So now I can chip away at this in small doses, and it's motivating, it's encouraging, it's something that you want to keep.
Doing so in your book, which is going to be coming out in March twenty twenty five, so just a few months from now. In your book, is there a chapter on debt or more than one chapter?
Oh?
Yes, absolutely?
Okay, So is it the snowball the avalanche? What kind of method do you like? What's working for your followers?
So for me, it is the snowball method, but it's like it's it's with a twist. So it's the snowball method because what I've seen work the best is it being a motivating factor to getting out of debt. When we are dealing with and so now we're going to have a deeper conversation. So when we are having conversations to mostly black and brown women, we already know that more than likely we're going to run into some income issues.
We're going to run into women who are probably taking on the brunch of the financial responsibilities of the household. I see this a lot in my community. So sometimes it's discouraging to say you have to pay X amount of dollars one hundred dollars or more towards a debt. Immediately I'm going to think about how much my quality of life that I'm already probably scraping by is going to change. But if someone tells me I can chip away at this in twenty five dollars increments and slowly
but surely increase that by ten dollars every week. Doesn't sound like much. Now we have a good thing going, We have a good habit established, we have a good and we have a few good program not programs, but patterns set up. Now we have changed it to where now it's more motivated and I'm more excited to do this while also not having to take away from a pot that's probably already empty when I first started.
Yeah, so the debt snowball break it down for us. It's been a minute, but I know, be a fan yea. But listen to this show something else and writing since the beginning. We're about to do our tenth year. Can y'all believe that? Gradulu? This is Yeah? Well, thank you. I'm very excited. But also I feel like an old krusty like you mentioned some of the old personal finance advice. It is so it is like broken record because that's it's like, it is what it is. It's money, you
got it, you don't. The math is math and math. But at the same time, like we these these concept of snowball methods, zero sum budgeting, debt avalanche, like I've heard about them, but like, let's reintroduce it, make it fresh, make it new. So talk about the snowball because you said you like that one, and there's actually a study
that shows that the snowball is the most effective. Right, it may not save like the most overall because of the of the difference in how you structure your debts, but it has that like it has that like you said, that has this, like this this flywheel of I'm getting something done a little bit at a time, I'm seeing the balances go down. That can get addicting and can make sure that you stay motivated. So break it down for a station.
Yes, so when we think about the snowball method, it really is you focusing on the smallest balance first and you're paying that off and then you use that amount to pay towards your next debt and so on and so on. So think of just like a snowball rolling down the hill. It starts off small, but as it goes down the hill, it picks up momentum to eventually you have a lot of money a lumpsum more huge ball that you can apply to your last debt at
the end of the snowball methic. So the beauty here is that when you were done now, that is a lump sum of money that you can either save, invest or put back into your quality of life on a monthly basis, because you have already gotten used to living without that piece of money. And so I like that a lot because granted it may not save you the most money in the long run, but I don't like to look at things dollar by dollar because doing the
avalanche method. Let's say I save a lot of money doing that, but what would I have paid for it? Really mentally, emotionally, I would have paid for that somewhere else that I'm probably not willing to pay their.
Cost for that.
And the aidvalanches where you do it from interest rates. Yes, so like you're paying down it makes sense. It's like the most expensive debt goes first, and it's like order it by your APRS, by whatever you're paying an interest. But some of that most expensive debt it can take longer to pay down. Right, Yes, it may not be the smallest balance, and so that can get demotivating.
Is that what you're saying, Yes and the smallest balance is extremely motivating, it's encouraging, it's picking up momentum. Use sources to feel good about yourself, because we just talked about that early and dealing with debt can be isolating. You feel a lot of guilt, shame, and anxiety. So now when you finally finally have a good thing going and you're chipping away at these balances, now you're excited, you know, about doing this. You're excited to see what
the end is going to look like. That's why I love that one the most.
I'm going to feel excited. Yes, yes, I know, be a famous like Nandy. Tell us how much debt you actually have?
Girl? Yeah?
Well, let me just tell you. One thing that me and day should know is that when you get a book advance, it looks really pretty, but they don't give it to you all at once. Yeah, and then you can't work while you're writing that book. So where does that money come from? Where does that money come from?
That is true?
That girl?
How have you been doing it while running your business at the same time, Day Show, what am I doing wrong?
It's been a challenge. I'm not going to lie. It's really been a challenge because I had to dedicate eighteen months solely to my book while also still working to a certain extent and being a mom. So even just for the topic of debt, I can see how when life changes, I can see how sometimes it's easy to want to rely, you know, on credit course, or to find ourselves in spaces making decisions that we probably would
not have made before. That's why I think it's so important to humanize a conversation about debt to where it doesn't define you as a person. It more than likely just defines a part of your life, but you can grow past that.
Yeah. For me, it's also like it's a little bit of toxic hope, okay, because I'm not gonna lie. Over the course of my career, I've always been such a good negotiator, and I've been able to get like wind falls here and wind falls there that I may have had some bad habits of like oh, were spending over the years, but they were always there was always something that came through that was like here you go, and
it's like it never happened. But in twenty twenty three, woo woo, it was so hard and it's like, Okay, it's time to like put your big girl panties on. And I wonder, like even for me, I have a husband and he's looking over at me, like you got this because I usually do you know, I don't know if y'all have do y'all have partners and like or do you have any tips for people who are in relationships?
And it really does take to to tango into debt and to tango out of it, and sometimes that communication is so so hard to do.
I think we both have stories.
Your story net well, I was girls.
I was in a situation where I did not have as much help right so it I was the personalization was speaking about I've been the kind of the breadwinner in my household and right now as a single mom with two boys, it's just me. So I know you're talking about partnership, but I also include my kids. I think it's super important because mine are going to be
nineteen in December and twelve. They understand what we have financially, what we don't have financially, what our goals are as a family, right because I don't want them to squander any hard work that I've done over these years. So they have a better understanding of at their age than what I did.
Right.
So I'm a child of immigrants that came to America didn't necessarily understand the financial landscape. So I just think it's super super super important to not just talk to your partner about money and what your financial goals are. It's also like it's a whole family thing. It's understanding taking the kids shopping and understanding, well, that's not on sale.
That's not on sale, so hard to see how the light for that, right, And it's like just teaching good money habits as much as possible because I think it's a whole family situation, so that you know, debt can be preventable. But it's also when there is debt, everybody understands what it is. Right, So especially you know after the holidays, don't overspend, right, Like have that real conversation like what do you love the most? Experiences? I think
are the most important things versus things. So I mean there's some real hard to have.
Yeah, they really are. And then when I have I have two little babies. I mean I have a four year old and a well five year old and a one year old, and the past two years it hasn't been so much about it. Well, it's all about their experiences. And you know one thing, the child early childhood entertainment industry is just booming because there's it's like all the solutions to entertain your children cost money, you know what
I mean. Everyone's like, well, just get a babysitter and just get you know, have them stay extra daycare and aftercare and this and that and the third. And I'm like, or go to the trampoline park on a rainy day, or go to the museum. I'm like, bro, when you're paying for a family afore that shit adds up. It's wild birthday parties, my god, do our gifts for everybody in their class like it is? Ugh? I could seriously, I could.
Go on, but I don't think it's funny because they always play with the box. Instead, we did all that and let.
There be some tissues in it. Like literally, my son played all day with a piece of foam that came inside of this cute little bookcase that I built for him. Yeah, he didn't care for that, but the piece of foam shaped like a shield of a night. He's very into in a piece of foam that was like his little lightsaber.
That's what he imagination is everything it is.
It really is. But God, single motherhood. I mean I was raised by a single mom. My heart really goes out to you, Nat, And oh we were some brady kids too. I hope your kids are much more well behaved they are, Sasha, what about you partnered? Like you know, relationship finances with your kids? Like, how are you working all that?
In? No, so I am divorced. I've been divorced. It's probably going on about a decade. So I'm raising my two boys by myself.
You've lived so many lives.
Yes, oh I have.
I have so many.
I have sixteen year old and twelve year olds, and it's really the same with Nat. I involve them a lot in the finances. I can say my twelve year old does not care about nothing that I say. He don't care about a budget, he don't care about a credit card paying, he does not care. Like he's at the age where it's like it's not computing to him. It's like you want say, he doesn't understand why he can't get like he's not a brad or anything, but
he just can't put two and two together. He still thinks like, oh, if you swipe a card, if you have the card and you swipe it, it should work. So we're like working through like getting him to really understand how it goes. But I evolved them a lot, just like Nat in all of the financial discs decisions. It was important for me to sit them down so that they can see me pay our rent, they can see me pay our carnoes, so they can actually see what those numbers look like like. It's not as simple
as just swiping a card and it's done. One of the best things that I have love navigating with them is unpaid labor in the household. I wanted to introduce my voice to that as early as possible, and we talk about that a lot, like if when you're eating someone is cooking just because you're not seeing it get done like someone is doing it. And I started that with, Hey, if you're walking past the liundry room and it's overflowing with your clothes on a Monday, and then Tuesday, all
of those clothes are washed. Someone did that. So you know, I talked to them a lot about unpaid labor, how it means for us all to play a part in the household because they are older. If they were much younger, the conversation would be different. But they are older boys. So I talked to them about that a lot. But it is important to involve them in all working aspects of money, especially in the household, because they're they're boys.
They're going to go out in the world. They're going to know possibly one day get married.
I don't yes, I feel like I always ready.
I always tell myself, like, I'm doing this for your wife from my daughter in law. That's that's like my mindset, like I want to make sure she is in the best position possible because I've done everything that I can for you while you're my care.
The partners that come before, the way or the husband or whatever, your your your, your pronoun of choice. I'm gonna go ahead and put this book on blast again. Boy mom, read y'all, Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity. Library. You'll get the book back when I'm done with it. Okay, weeks since has been I don't know, Oh my gosh, all right, So, Dasha, Queen of Small all steps. This is a new year, and I've heard one step, which to me is not so small, but
it is a big step. It is sitting down and getting your information in one place. And that includes every credit card balance, every every bill that you have coming, every expense down on paper spreadsheet. Mint is gone. What are the girls using? Now? I have in Power. That's the app that I use too. Oh nice, formerly known as Personal Capital. Yeah yeah, what about you, Dasha.
I still use a spreasheet. I am an ex sale girl, through and through asheets. Yep.
I just love that you say exhale. It's such ah. The Saint Louis accent. It should be studied. It's amazing, all right, I love it. Okay, So we have our numbers down and now we are sweating, and it's like can I afford a bottle of wine because I need some wine? Or it's like get an edible, like get your little gummy. I might get a gummy from the closet and just sit down and just like kids are in bed, and just let the relaxation national debt relief.
Don't shake your head, No, you don't endorse that, okay, get you in trouble, yeah yeah, just whatever it takes self soothing, all right, And then I am working on ordering them from smallest balance to highest. Now I don't have tons of patients for trimming expenses. I need what I need. You know what I mean, and I can justify anything.
For me.
It's always about more money. How do I get bring more in? That is the solution in a lot of ways. So looking for additional sources of income, whether that's increasing your rates if you are freelancing, asking for a raise obviously at work, quitting and getting a better offer somewhere else, as I coach women to do all of the time. But bringing in extra money is always nice. But then
what are some baby steps from there? Like when it comes to just like chiseling that down are you talking about, Dasha. I've seen on Instagram you'll post these like savings challenges and it's like day one, two dollars, day three, seven, and it goes from there. What has worked? What can you see working?
I see a lot when I post those says challenges. I get a lot of positive feedback because the amounts are so small that a lot of these people who use them, they don't really miss the money, and it's small and it's increasing and very small increments that they don't realize that they are taking money from their income, putting it to the side, and they don't miss it because it's so small. So I do see that that works a lot too. I see a lot of budgeting
that works. I am a huge fan of zero based budgeting. It is the only budgeting method that I recommend because it gives I know it's not the only one that works, but it's the only one that I recommend because you get to give every single dollar that you bring in a job to do keeping your money busy. I'm someone who believes that my money should work just as hard as me. That I should not have any money that's sitting idle. I need to have a plan for it.
And just because my money is busy doesn't mean that it's all spent. It is just meaning that it's all accounting accounting for. So if I do come across any extra money, I know that, hey, maybe I can put this towards savings. Maybe I can put this towards that. I think that that is very important. So I see a lot when I share with my audience different ways to do things that are less stressful, small increments, small amounts, Those tend to go over very well because it's less intimidating.
So zero based budgeting, I do like that. That's one. Yeah. So zero based budgeting is a method that I've definitely heard of before, and that's where every dollar, even if it's like this twenty dollars is going to go to your four to one K or this twenty dollars is going to go toward your emergency savings, like it has a job. It doesn't just stay in your checking account.
Yeah, And I think that that's such a good approach because it's been so many times, especially when I first started out. I'll look at my bank account and I'll say, oh, like I got an interest two hundred dollars, and then
I'll spend it. Then I'll realize, oh, I didn't pay a light bal or oh, and so now I'm stuck in a cycle of payday loans, which is exactly how I ended up in debt in the first place, because I wasn't accounting for all of the money that I was bringing in, and so I started to think, like, I'm working hard all week. I don't want my money just lost and sit in idle and waste it. I want to track every single dollar that I bring in.
And that's not to micro manage, but you do want to be involved with what's happening with your money, what's coming in and out of your account.
Okay, zero, I love zero based budgeting. We're going to post a link so you guys can learn more about that. Not any final tips, any final words.
I think this is a great conversation. We could talk about this all day.
Actually, no, I think my stress levels are high enough to do at lunch when at lunch Friday were not allowed to talk about any of this. Absolutely that don't even bring don't then.
This is our time, Okay, So yeah, all I will say is is just know that having a plan is better than no plan and is never ever too late to really sit down and figure out what the goal is. I like to work backwards, so my motivation comes from I want X by X date, and then I'm going to figure out how I'm going to get there. Excuse me,
come hell of high water. That is just how I look at it, right, So that big shiny thing at the end of the road that I really want the most, and it might be an experience, it's something that's true to who I am and genuine to who I am or what I want to provide for my children, and that's what keeps me like really focused on I could buy that bag, but I think I would rather my kids go to any college that they want to without a student loan, right, So, like that's one of my big, big,
big things. So it's never too late to start, It's never too late to learn, it's never too late to increase your income. There are people that are getting into acting at like seventy right, So, like there are possibilities everywhere. Y'all are writing books. I'm so proud of y'all. It's like they're the possibility try. So just know that debt is one of those things. It's just another possibility that you can go around.
Yeah, some of that optimism, we got it, y'all. All right, ba fam, I want to hear from y'all. Please send us an email, send us a DM on Instagram at Brand Ambition Podcast, Brandambisson Podcast at gmail dot com. I want to know how you felt about this conversation and what are some of the baby steps you were going to take to start tackling this debt because I want to do this Brand Ambition listener survey in six months
and I want to see that we are handling business. Okay, we got our Olivia Pope crisis management, white hats on. Let's handle our shit, be a fam Okay, we can get out of this mess twogether. No judgment, no shame, just action. Thank you, Dasha, and thank you Nat for joining from National Debt. Really, Dasha, congrats on the book. We can't wait to get our copy and have you back on the show when it's finally out in the world.
Thank you, I'm excited.
Thank you both. Take care