Take Back Your Power at Work (How-To Monday)

color can redefine power in corporate America. Listen in if you want a crash course on how to set boundaries at work, listen to your body so you don't get burned out, and how to play the corporate game as you change it. I am obsessed with this episode. I hope that you guys enjoy this throwback. Check it out and let us know what you think. Don't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or slide into our DMS. We are on Instagram at Brand Ambition Podcast.

Hey hey va fam, it is Mandra back with another episode of Round Ambition. Today's guest, y'all, is incretatively special. I had the opportunity to speak with Today's guests last week, and I knew from that conversation that I was like, you have to be on Brown Ambition. And this is how quickly I made it happen. Okay, within one week, I have her on the show, and I am so excited to bring today's guest to you. Her name is

Deepa Pershathaman. She is I don't even You're going to have to bear with me because this woman's accolades and titles are just they go on for miles and miles and miles. And I'm going to fight my own imposter syndrome and explain a little bit to y'all about who

my new friend, Depa is. Okay. Not only is Deepa the co founder of her own company called Information, which provides brave, safe space for professional women of color to advance in their careers, she is also a Women in Public Policy program leader in Practice at Harvard Kennedy's School.

You may have heard of it. Prior to that, Deepa spent more than twenty years in corporate America at Deloitte, and she was the first Indian American woman to make partner in the company's history history and with Deepa's deep knowledge of what it means to be one of the first, one of the few, one of the Only. She wrote a beautiful book which you guys have to go pick up. It just was released earlier this month. Go find her new book. It's called The First, the Only. How Women

of Color can redefine power in Corporate America. Like I said, it's out right now. Go to the show notes, you can download your copy, you can pick up the book. We have to support. I'm telling you, when women of color publish books, I think it is all of our duty to go and purchase them so that other women of color can get book deals.

color leaders in corporate America. Thank you for that, and how we can start dismantling those outdated power structure so that only a few of us seem to be able to make it, and how that few can become many instead. So thank you so much for letting me brag on you DIPA. I know, thank you for having me uncomfortable to listen to your own bio. But I was like, you're going to listen to it? Oh, but you did it, you survived. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition.

look like you to turn to. But as soon as I sort of opened up to meeting the first few only difference outside of my company and you know, started to open myself up to building those relationships, I was like, Okay, it feels like I'm alone, but I'm not alone. How important is it to you? And like in your messaging in the book for women of color, for us to like find support among one another.

capability issue in that sort of sense. But I also worried that it would reflect on other women of color coming after me. So I sat in my seat knowing I wanted to leave, and probably being unhappy for a little while just for that reason.

that I do now. But I think a lot of us are isolated, and we think so much of what's happening to us is us right, or it's our you know, deficiencies or our insecurities. And what we realized from meeting others is it's not us, it's the system. And that I cannot tell you a freeing that is so so important.

this again? Obviously, the business model and the whole plan had, you know, turned on its head with COVID and George Light's murder really changed how we talk about race at work and all of that together, so we to rethink how that would what that would look like is at one point we thought it might be just dinners, right, like some sort of sequence of coming back, and it's all gone virtual online and it's a very different format.

But it came out of that need to want to continue the discussions and really bring together women so that we're not struggling in the ways that we're struggling and isolated and facing a lot of the trauma I think on our own, which we shouldn't have to do, but we haven't had space to talk about that before.

So here's what you should do. But I love about information and just your own work. Was what if we our own spaces and we find our own places where we can feel safe. For me, it was also really liberating to start doing that on my own, and I don't think if I hadn't. Just like you, sometimes you just can't wait for them to get it right because some of us, like time is not necessarily something that we have an abundance, especially when you're when you're trying

to move through your career. I feel like it's going to take companies years and years and years. If they just started in twenty twenty woo, it's going to take them on a long time to start getting it right.

So in the meantime, it's about like, how can I find resources like information or my own you know, coaching program or whatever program may be close to you, But where can you find community, like your community of peers to lean on for support so that you don't get burnt out, exhausted and leave.

what to do. And so I think that's why a lot of us are solving it outside of the structures and the systems because we know for them to catch up. I'm not saying they can't ever do it, but it's not a safe space right now. They don't know how to hold the space. They don't know how to have

the conversations. And in some cases what we're talking about is directly in the face of the things that they worry about, right like we are talking about things like racism, and from a legal perspective, a lot of the structures and a lot of the system has been set up to protect the company, and so it's.

do it differently. And the challenge was a lot of those women, once they got to the senior seats, they found less ability to do it their way because there was more pressure to kind of get along and toe the line and do what the company was expecting them to do. And the place where I found it the

most shocking was literally in reporting racism. So there's about eight women that I spoke with again VP level and above, who told me they ended up leaving their industries, leaving their companies because they reported a case of incident of racism, whether it was them or someone they witnessed, and the company didn't appreciate them doing that, even though they're for all of the protocols, even though they followed the rules, because a company all of a sudden felt like they

were liable right or they were legally could be held responsible. So it was almost as if the woman who was trying to tell her truth and improved the culture all of a sudden became kind of the lightning rod or the problem, and it was story after story after story. So I think at the highest level, at the simplest level, I think we need new processes and new ways we

report racism. The reporting doesn't work. And also the people sitting in the seats taking in the stories, what I found is a lot of them are white leaders and they don't necessarily understand racism. So there's a lot of back and forth with that, it's not that bad, and I don't really know what you're talking about. And so sometimes in those cases, what I'm hearing is we need

outside folks to do that work. We need outside representatives, we need outside investigators until companies can kind of catch up, put the right people in the seats and understand what to do. So it's not a legal liable issue. It's a different sort of conversation.

People here seem to you know, but they don't trust you enough to actually tell the truth in that half hour zoom session. The trust isn't there. And I think that you've touched on that, you know, a a in a way that I'm just like, oh, that makes sense. You know what if we take that reporting structure outside of the company and we say, you don't have to trust your manager or HR to handle your complaint, We're gonna give it to this third party, and then maybe

it's even anonymized in some way. I don't know, but make us feel safer putting our next out there, because it's it's not a lot of upside, as you as you've seen in your work, not a lot of upside being the squeaky wheel sometimes. And you may think when you get to a more senior level, like you said, it gets easier, like your voice has more weight. But I'm trying to think back now. Once I got to like the senior director level and I was on track

to become a VP, the expectation immediately. I remember when I was I asked my manager at the time, my boss's boss, like, so I want to become a VP's what do I what do I gotta do? Tell me how it works. And one of the you know, one of the I forget how many parts of the plan

to get me on the VP track. One of them was demonstrating that I could work with the other department heads and creating projects, and one by one it was a white dude after a white dude, and learning how to deal with those personalities and work in those rooms and to feel like in order for me to get ahead, they had to endorse me, you know, it made it even more challenging, like this is not my target audience, you know what I mean. And I had found my safe space, and I had and I had gotten very

far in my in my corner of the company. But when I had to start reaching outward to those other department heads, it was it was then when I was like feeling that sense of do I belong here? Do I want to be here? Is this really where I want?

was like a constant topic of conversation. So that sense of responsibility is different for different groups, but it's really ingrained, I think for a lot of the women of color I interviewed, and so a lot of them will realize I think somewhat, you know, halfway through, let's just call it halfway through, that this is maybe not a culture that I can thrive in, This is not maybe working

for me. But I got to continue pushing. And a lot of women of color, I think, struggle because we've one been told to be grateful for the opportunity, and so we're confused. I think, to your point, we feel guilty. I think a lot of us feel like our work is getting to the seat and opening it up for others, and you know, what does that really mean for us personally, and a lot of us have been taught to sacrifice, and so I think it's all really difficult for me.

It came down to I had known for a while that the lifestyle that I had was not conducive for me. So I started to get sick. That's kind of a very long story short and I don't mean, you know, small small things. I mean every week it was like a new symptom, to the point that I was probably dealing with twenty or thirty symptoms. I'd been to fourteen doctors. I tell a story in the book, I've been to fourteen doctors, and they all agreed there was something wrong

with me. You know, some of them related it to age I turned forty, like maybe that's what had happened. But they agreed something was happening. And I was at my fourteenth doctor and she looked at me and she said, we can keep running tests, or I can tell you what I think you already know. And when I tell the story, I always say like I had brought my suitcase to the appointment.

think you need to really do something else. My fourteenth doctor and you know doctor I saw when I traveled, and she asked me three life change of questions that were profound, I think for anybody, but I think especially for women of color. She said, what would you do if you didn't do a big job like this? Her second question to me was do you feel like you have to do a big job to be worthy? And her third question was don't you see your worthy being you?

And I think part of my struggle was I'd been taught that, you know, some of my worthiness, a lot of my worthiness came from performing, came from doing more, came from showing up, came from succeeding. That was a lot of what I had been taught, I think, especially

from my immigrant family. And it was a real struggle to walk away from that life, to walk away from the security of what that brought, and to really question this is something I still want to do and the most shocking thing of all of the women I spoke with is I think a lot of us are sick

in ways that we don't talk about. So two out of three women of color I interviewed were sick with these what I call mysterious symptoms, right, so, stomach pains, skin rashes, headaches, fertility issues, adrena fatigue, and I have a long list, but they're these things that I think are these growing symptoms, but things that doctors can dismiss and tell us they're not that big a deal, but they really affect us, and a lot of what I believe, and I talk to a number of doctors, I think

it comes from not being seen and heard in systems, not really feeling supported, and to your point, from adapting and fitting in and staying longer than we should. So I think these are really important conversations we have to have, like when do you stay and when do you go? When is a culture not working for you? And when is it causing more.

and your body has revolted. So it's not even a matter of sometimes just it's about our physical safety too as much as our mental safety. To recognize that. All right, I am loving this conversation with our incredible guests. Deep up per shot them on. I'm going to take a quick break. I will be right back with Deepa. And by the way, do not forget to check out her website. It's deepaperu dot com. Check the show notes for a link to get her book and find out all about information.

We will be right back. All right, ba fam, I am back with my guests today. Deep up per shot them on. Here we go, let's get back to our conversation. I feel like one of the things that has to happen too to make you feel safe, excuse me, And a decision to leave is even to recognize I mean leaving for you as entrepreneurship and writing a book and all of that, and hopefully a really long vacation hopefully took some time off to us.

be this way. Everywhere and that there's examples, and that's where it comes back to, like getting to know other people, other women, especially you know, in your industry, who are working places and look for the ones who are happy and thriving and see how you can get there because it may it may not be you, it may be the culture that you're in, but you can rescue yourself, you know, and get yourself out of it. And I feel like, you know, our mutual friend now I can

call her friend, Rachika Tolshian. She was on the show a couple of weeks ago, and she and I were talking about how, you know, it is that perception that I have to just grin and bear it. You know that this is what it's going to be, so let's just get used to it. But no, no, you can get out and there's other places. It may not be entrepreneurship, like it's not for everyone, but like, what are the signs,

you know, if you were going back into corporate America. Now, I know that you're not on that path right now, but if you were, what would you be looking for, you know, signs that this is a safe space for me. Yeah.

ask me like, well, people tell them. I think now people will you know, like don't come here right now, or that department is notorious, So ask like ask, you know, ask your sisters. I think we'll share more. I also think looking at you know, traditional places like glassdoor and other places where there reviews and there's more online information than there has ever been before, and I think that's okay to ask as well.

and I have what I need to succeed. I also think this is a little bit of you know, when I first wrote the book, it's funny like the title wis day or Go, And people tell me you can't be telling everyone to go, although two years later maybe I can, right. I think we are a place where everyone's asking, you know, what do they really want to do? What's the space that work takes up in our life?

And I think it's okay to say that certain companies are not conducive or supportive for women of color, just period, end of sentence.

And so it's a little bit of making sure not only the companies friendly, but the department and the person you're going to be working for is also to your point, right, you kind of share this in your own story, like that person really influences your day to day and how it feels, and so asking questions about that person is also something that can be helpful and insightful and important to do too.

are at the VP level or above? And then things get really quiet and awkward, and I started, I really didn't start incorporating that into the questions I asked in my last year of corporate America, who knows? Maybe I'll go back who knows? But and I encourage women to ask that, And some of the responses, where can you ask that? Is this even seen as an okay question?

And I'm like, you know, the fact that we're asking, And if you're coming in at at a senior level like that VP or above, I mean the fact that you were asking. I feel like recruiters should know that. You know, it's going to become as important. I feel like to have stats to share on how successful diverse employees are. It's going to become as important to have those stats as it is to have unlimited PTO and free lunch.

set clearer boundaries. I would have maybe not conformed on certain behavior we're early on, it didn't feel like a big deal, you know. Maybe again for me, it was a lot of just personal time and how much I sacrificed, and you know, how my priorities and how I prioritize things, I might make bigger boundaries, and I think had I started that early, it wouldn't have been such a surprise to do it later, but it is a hard thing to do to just show up at a senior level

and all of a sudden, then you're setting boundaries. So I think this is a little bit of teaching all of us to do it earlier. And to your point, if you know early on you can't do that, then maybe that's not the right place to go because you know you're being set up for sacrifice early on. Yeah.

And I think, well, I have a couple of thoughts, but I feel like even reaching out if you see women of color, you know, thank goodness for LinkedIn, even just reaching out and saying, hey, I'm actually considering a role at your company. I would love to have a chat for fifteen minutes, just ask about your experience and try to get some candid insights into how women there

are doing and are they happy? Because I think what I think is beautiful about you know, up and coming career women is that we are not as accepting of that cut throat sacrifice everything, you know, claw and scratch away the top lifestyle. We want a softer life. We want success and wealth, and we don't want to have to sacrifice our mental, physical health, our family, our interests, our passions, you know what I mean. And I think for those of us who have kind of seen it,

I mean you certainly too. I mean you look back even now and you say for a twenty year career, like okay, I would go back and do things differently. I would hope for women approaching their career today that they could listen to that advice, take it, but not think that they have to settle for less, that they

have to not go for those top positions. It's just going for them, but recognizing and putting those boundaries in place so that you don't have to sacrifice yourself necessarily along the way to get there.

the interview. But this is so much of I think us knowing what we need and want and then finding ways to make sure we get what we need and want and then it's okay to need and want things. I mean mean, that's really where we have to start, because I think a lot of the women that I interviewed, we're not taught that, you know, We're just taught to push through and and survive and do more and work four times as hard as right comes up so many times.

But I think it's a different Like we're asking you questions. We don't want to just keep doing that. It's not good for us and it's not good for the next generation. So how do we start to do power differently? How do we start to set boundaries now so that we can change work so that we get more to the many, right, not just the fuse that. I think that's really what the work is right now.

and she's like, Mandy, is this what it's like? My boss just texted me. It's eight o'clock on a Saturday. He texted me. He texted me, I don't want to take text on the weekends. And I was said, well, you know what, but you don't respond to that text until eight thirty am on Monday, which is usually when she gets into work. And I was just like really intense with her, like if you give me your phone,

do not respond to that text. And I was like this this, and I was She was like, calm down, but I was like, this is this is when it happens. This is when you stop, you know, you don't put a barrier in your way, and then two years from now you're like, he's he's showing up on your front door, you know, with a work emergency and you don't know how your life became this way. But yeah, I'm good for her generation, you know, the Generation Z or whatever she is, allennial who are kind of starting to get

in it, starting to get it. But I think we still need one another to like check each other when we when we start to forget, you know, what's really important and what really matters. Yeah, yeah, you know.

I think they want to do it differently, but they need the encouragement and the permission to do it differently. So it's still there. I don't think they're fully there where they're not going to respond. I think they know maybe there's a different choice, but we need to help them or remind them or you know, implore upon them. Don't respond a Saturday night, Wait till monday. So what you did is what we need to do more of.

are doing it. But if you're at a place where maybe you feel like you don't have that kind of support, then take it on yourself to find those support systems, to find those programs. Like Dipa said, oh man, I used to love making my company pay for like executive leadership seminars and coaching and all kinds of stuff. They'll say yes, especially if they're like, oh, I don't have to do this myself. I can just give you five thousand dollars and problem solved, you know, let them spend

their money on it. That's how I feel.

Ron and I were teaching. It was just they saw each other do it. And they're like, well, if she can do it, then I'm going to do it. And there's something to that. And because we're so isolated, because we're one of the onlies in our companies, we don't get to see other examples and other women of color asking their worth and standing in their space and all of those things. And so I think it's also to your point. I think we need each other to just just to be reminded of that too.

you and from there move you forward. If this is something you're.