Welcome b a fam Hello, I'm Randy woodrif Santo's so.
While Many's collecting herself, we had tears amazing conversation with not only one of Mandy's heroes, but the hero to many, the Roxanne Gay and nanny. Why is Roxanne just like one of your hero.
I'm like, in full tears, I've never been this way around Roxanne Gay? Why is she a hero? Because she has survived so much like we all do? You know, we all have stories to tell, and it's not that Roxanne story. And I don't think she feels this way either. I'm sure she would say, like, you know, we all have stories. Hers is one of many, but she chooses to share so much of herself and her book Hunger just like cracked me wide open, made me love myself.
She she is a like she says in the interview, you guys will hear you know, she is a black, queer, fat woman her words in America, and she's she's so gentle and I mean, you know, just in talking to her tip, I just am struck by, like like she's so she's normal, Like she's just like we all are. You know, she's a human being. But she's got grit, and she's got bravery and courage. And her story, her life story is just so not a nonlinear It goes
every other direction that you could possibly think. But yet look at the way she talks about her mom and her dad, and her brother and her nephew and her puppy and her wife. Now, it's just it. Really, she's just such a hero and and she's a writer like she just her words break, they break you and they build you back together. And I think that she's genuine in how she supports other authors. You can see that.
You know, she's got her own imprint. Now, the project we're going to talk to her about today, BA Fan is a collection of essays on ever and we'll put a link in the bio. What it's not just her work about which we'll get into for sure, her buying her first gun as a black woman in America and talking about how she thinks it, Well, did she say it was empowering? There's some there's some debate about the word empowering, but her experience rather and the other authors
that she lifts up as much as she can. Ah, what uh? And the reason I'm like still in full tears I'm still crying if I don't know if that's even in the show. But at the end, Tiffy, what did she say? She said, she said, let me know about your book.
She said, let me know about your book and how I can help you, and like in a very genuine way. And Mandy, I don't know that. I was like, I will stand and will stand in place, and I said that I will make sure she reaches out to ask for the help when your book comes out or in between. And she said, please do because she knew that Mandy, despite you know, her being a bad ass boss babe, Yes, I am those thanks too, right, it might be afraid to reach out to ask for help even though someone
has made the genuine offer. And so we hope that you enjoyed this episode as much as we enjoy being in her presence and sharing her with you. And without further ado, we welcome the Mama f and Rock sand Get. Hey, Hey, hey, we're back. We're extra black. We're brown, ambition, ambition, ambition, We're super duper super du brown. In the studio, we have company, and so much so we actually took the
covers off the couch. We're saying a good living room, you know the you know the white living room where it's like, don't you touch nothing, And we're bringing out the good juice from underneath the bed. That's what my mother used to do. Wait, wow, you know when you have somebody to come over. Because I'm one of four and so there was five of us, so juice was not lasting long. So we had company man company snacks.
So we're bringing them all out because we've got a special guest in the studio today and so welcome Roxanne Gay. The Roxanne Gay.
Thank you so much. It's a real pleasure to be here. Guys.
So Mandy said me starts struck.
Mandy said, this video, but I don't know, it's like a nine minute video. Do you prefer Roxanne?
Miss Gay Roane.
She's never heard that before, I'm sure never.
So you sent me that video, Mandy, I did not know what to expect. But you know, gun ownership and kind of like your journey too was not you know, and so it made me, really, I don't know, reconsider because just like you Rock saying, my assumption was that when you think of gun ownership, it's definitely a white dude, it's definitely a brow he probably drives a pickup truck. And you know, I don't know I was wearing a
red hat, if you know what I mean. But I have been seeing more and more black women online talk about, you know, just a need for protection. And so for those of our audience members that have not seen this, I guess Mini Doc if you will, cause you kind of just share, Like, so now you are officially.
A gun owner. Oh yes, definitely and can't come for her. I mean you can try it.
You can try, but.
I don't recommend it, but feel free, but can.
You kind of share your journey because I watched to DOAC and I was like, ah, this gonna makes so much sense stuff for sure.
Yeah, you know, I definitely don't believe people should be able to own guns. I think it's absurd how many guns are in this country. There are actually more guns than people in the United States, and truly no other country in the world has that, no other country. And we also have a populist that seems more than willing to use those guns in public, to use those guns to wreak incredible havoc, to take an enormous amount of
lives at one time, so fundamentally I'm opposed to guns. However, you know, when you write and you're a black woman, a queer black woman, a fat black woman, and you have opinions opinions that quite frankly are not that radical, like women are people, and stop killing us when we're unarmed, or quite frankly, stop killing us under any circumstances, like just basic you know, human rights, one on one things.
People really don't like it. And some people, of course, are just going to troll you on social media, which is annoying and sometimes painful, but it is what it is and it's not a big deal. But sometimes you also get threats. And I've gotten threats for fifteen years now, so I'm used to the threats, but they have gotten sharper and more specific over time, and some of them have indicated, oh, this person isn't just angry because of
what they read. They've done some research. And then I got married and my wife is Jewish, and the threats started taking on a very anti Semitic tone, and for me that was just like, okay, well now I'm done. And my brother Joel was an avid gun enthusiast and no one in the family knows where he got this from It was just very like what And he had long tried to convince our other brother, Michael Junior and I to take up gun ownership or to get into it,
and Michael and I were like, no, thank you. Uh. And then finally I thought, well, you know, let me give it a go. And so during the pandemic, we bought a gun, and my wife and I took gun classes and learned how to use one. And you know, it's not you know, people always overestimate how interesting it is. It's actually not that interesting. It's not even something I
think about every day. But I do know that if someone who doesn't belong in my home enters, I have an additional means of trying to protect myself.
I mean, have you have you ever got a gun, Mandy?
I mean a BB gun when I was about seven years old, and the kickback what do you call it when it.
Like goes the recoil or kickback works too?
Oh well, it kicked me in the teeth. I'm surprised I have all of that. I don't know how was I holding it for to kick me in the teeth. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. But I grew up in Georgia's so there was lots of BB guns around. But yeah, my husband works in for the federal government. His brother is an ATF agent, and I have two little boys, and so my opinions on gun ownership are quite severe. Like I just am like it's the devil, like never shall it enter this home, Like it's just
asking for trouble. I do get my husband and his brother. They have been to the shooting ranges, they have trained with federal agents, like they understand. I love that you and your wife took classes, you know, for me, educated trained gun owner who learned safety and all that, Like that's much different than you know and t if when you were when you were saying describing your idea of a gun owner, and that was a very different picture. For me. It's like a police officer, like just walking
around wielding that kind of power. It's it scares. But I also like raising these two little boys, I feel I feel not outnumbered, but I feel like it's inevitable that it will be a conversation at some point because gun culture is so infused into kid culture, like thin everywhere, even the cute video games like I used to play Duck Hunter. You know, like everything has guns and it water guns. You can't like everything is guns all the time.
Yeah, my mom wouldn't allow us to play with guns growing up, or barbie dolls for similar reasons. Wait what kinda just water guns?
Were no?
No or just any call guns, no toy guns, no water guns. And she was looking back, she was right like, oh yeah, normalize it. She also, I mean, this is gonna make her sound strange, but she's interesting. She wouldn't let us play with stuffed animals because animals are supposed to be scary, and she doesn't believe in teddy bears because bears are vicious. So now I have tons of teddy bears. Obviously, we all work through our traumas one way or another.
But no, my kids growing up and having to have like a gun cabinet because mommy wouldn't let them. Ever.
Absolutely, do you think there's like an intersectionality between gun ownership and economic access?
You know, yeah, sometimes, but you know the reality is guns are really cheap. Now if you are poor and living paycheck to paycheck, No, you probably don't have three hundred and four hundred, five hundred extra dollars to buy
a gun. So yes, there's definitely something there, and a lot of gun owners like the reality is that the majority of Americans do not own guns, and so the people who do own guns, like, they own a lot of guns, and it takes a lot of money to have that many guns and to have some of the more elaborate rifles, long gun, semi automatic weapons that people collect or whatever you used to arm their little militias
of their families. So there can be a connection. But unfortunately, depending on how you think about it, you know, it's just very easy to buy a gun. It's very affordable, and so you would think that that would be more of a barrier, but it isn't because guns are so accessible. I had no when I started getting into this and doing some research, I actually had no idea how cheap guns were. It's so disconcerting to like see a gun and then the price tag is like three ninety nine.
That is certainly money, but when you think about what a gun can do, it's just like wow. So this is a very accessible price point when you think about it, because it's not something you're going to buy every week. It's something you're going to buy one and done.
I mean, I saved up from my prom dress. It was two hundred and eighty seven dollars on them forget it and like they're eighteen. Other was just something that came out that said, the there's so many mass shootings. How can I remember the Uvalde the person who, the monster who who was responsible for the Uvalde shooting? He had saved up before his eighteenth birthday. In a minute he turned eighteen. He was like, and here's my ar fifteen. Roxane.
I wanted to ask you because I mean, you are your work is so important to me and so many others. I know I'm not alone in that, and it's been so empowering and how authentic you are and sharing your story, especially your book Hunger, was especially poignant to me. With this new project, why turn the lens toward gun ownership? Do you hope that it'll be empowering? And in what way?
No? I mean no, I don't ever make work with the ambition of being empowering, because I always harbor I think of healthy mistrust about like things that are framed as empowering, empowering, Why empowering for who? And it also there's a I think a level of hubris there where you say I'm trying to empower people. What makes you think you can? Instead? I was just interested in how do you think about gun ownership as a black feminist,
Like how do you reconcile those two things? And I actually don't know if they can be reconciled, but I do think it's interesting because, as you mentioned earlier, you know, we tend to think that of gun ownership as a white thing, and at least I do. And as I bought a gun and started going to the gun range, I recognized or I realized, oh my god, I'm surrounded by black women. This is really interesting. Now I live in Englewood, so you're to find black people in Englewood.
It's a predominantly black community still, thank god.
But.
It was still like, huh. It really forced me to rethink, and that was actually the genesis of this essay, just thinking, oh, this is really challenging my preconceived notions. And even at the gun store, it was mostly white men, but there were black women there buying guns, buying ammunition, et cetera. And I was curious whenever black women do something, I find black women endlessly interesting. And so I was just like, let me really sort of see what I can find
out here. And it was really interesting to learn that Black women are the fastest growing demographic of gun owners. And I think it's because a lot of us realize no one's coming to save us, Like we know that more than anyone. Nobody cares about us except us, and I hope that we change that. But that's not our job to change how people view us. There's nothing we can do that we have not already done. We should
not have to audition to be treated as human. So given the way that things are, like, let me do what I can do to protect myself.
It's so interesting because Black women are like the fastest growing demographics in the space of entrepreneurship, that's systemographic, going to college. But I mean, I feel like in every area we are, I wonder why that is.
I think we're very ambitious and not just around ambition if we know the answer, and.
I think that we know, Like I think also for one of the first times we can but like, if there's one thing a black woman is going to do, she's going to get a degree, period, and so you know, I just think we also, for the first time in history, have more available resources and time to do this we have, you know, still all of the same responsibilities, but I just think we're more encouraged now there are more avenue use, there's more ways of gaining confidence to do these kinds
of things. Of course, student loans which are problematic, but nonetheless, I mean they allowed me to go to grad school. So I think a lot of us recognize, Okay, let me take these low interest loans and see what I can do about getting a degree, or gun ownership or starting a And you know, even with starting a business, like how am I going to generate generational wealth? How
am I even going to support my family today? Like not even thinking that far ahead in ways that I can do so on my own terms without having to compromise myself as much as I would if I were to work for someone else. And so we see a lot of entrepreneurship and it's great.
Hold that thought and we'll be right back.
State farm agents are small business owners too, so they know how to help you choose personalized policies that fit your needs, like a good neighbor. State farm is there. Talk to your local agent today. So I want to talk about well, yes, gun ownership, but I also want to talk about like Sonia Massy, Like we can't ignore that that just happened. I mean, I what I like about and what challenges me with some of your writing and even this project, is that you're not trying to
offer answers. You're literally just looking at a question. But I can't help but ask in that situation, like how do you feel about Sonia Massy? I mean she had a pot of boiling water and her life was taken from her. Do you think if we look to gun ownership as a way of protecting ourselves, like, how does that? Like? Can it work? Can it will be be more protected or more endangered? It?
See, well, the thing is we're always endangered, So no, we won't be more endangered, but will we be more protected? I don't think there's anything more that can actually protect us. And that also extends to black men. Look at Tamiya Rice a child, look at Trayvon Martin, Filando Castile, Tatiana, Tatiana Jefferson. The list is so long, It's so long, it gets longer every year. So I you know, I think I did think about that because like if police came into my house and I thought it was an
intruder and I was holding a gun. I would absolutely lose my life. That actually happened. I can't remember his name, but he was an air Force. He was a member of the Air Force. It happened probably a month and a half ago, where he thought the police were an intruder. He had his gun. He's a legal registered gun owner in his home, standing his ground, and it did not matter. And So when I think about Sonya Massey, what really
breaks my heart? I mean, all of it breaks my heart, but what really breaks my heart is that she called the police because she was afraid, while also knowing she should be afraid of the police. Because the first thing she said to them was don't hurt me, and they're like, why would we hurt you?
And now?
And then they did, like a pot of boiling water isn't going to do anything to you? I mean. And it just seems like the police department is a vocational program for cowards, because so many of these officers say, I was afraid for my life. I was afraid. I was afraid, Like you're afraid of a woman in her nightgown holding a pot of water? Back up, like, I mean, what is she going to do to you? And even if you're afraid. I just don't understand why taking someone's
life is your means of addressing your fear. So did you'll see.
That he had been to like five different Is that true? I need to like vet that source. But I had read that he was a part of five different police precincts, and and it was just going back to the idea that there's no like, there's no stopping a bad cop from getting like who's been suspended, for example, in one district or whatever the jurisdiction is, moving to another area getting a new job as a police officer. Like, they
don't do serious checks on that kind of thing. So he was allowed to go from precinct to precinct to precinct to precinct. Clearly an issue, and I think there'll be more to come on that, but.
I tend to point know that, but I'm not surprised. Like the young not the young. The officer who killed Tamir Rice was recently found working for a sheriff's department somewhere and now, of course he has been let go because they didn't bother to do a background check. That's someone who's supposed to serve and protect. It's fine blowing. What do you mean you didn't do a background check.
I mean I had to fire someone before they were even on the job because they lied about going to NYU all the way, like didn't have the full degree, just went for a year and the JAR was like, yeah, no, we don't allow that, and they were gone. So that's insane.
You know, this is a country where you know, you have a family, you can have vote, but you can be president.
So well, let's lighten it up. How do you feel about Kamala Harris as president? Roxanne?
Is that lightning it up?
Were you one of the forty four thousand.
No, I was not, but I would have been. I think that it's just I'm all in. I think that we should all be all in for Kamala Harris, and I know that that some people don't like that. And I'm not saying that we just unequivocally and uncritically engage with her. I'm actually excited that we have a candidate that we can learn more about, that we can ask
questions of, that we can make demands of. And so I think this is this is a great opportunity to push Kamala further left, to find out what she intends to do about Gaza and stopping the war there and
this completely breathtaking and senseless loss of life. You know, but I think it's I think she's a phenomenal candidate, and I'm very comfortable saying that, Yeah, yes, there are many of things we can critique and should critique her history as a cop and a prosecutor, and some of the choices she made in those positions, Yes, those deserve critique. But Donald Trump remains an existential threat.
I mean, I think she'd also welcome the critique, and you know, if it wasn't, I think she would be, like, she would be open to that. Like you said, she's like malleable, flexible, like we all should be open to feedback, open to question, open to change. And I do think, like, yeah, I mean it sounds like you're saying, maybe, like being under Biden, she was a bit more moderate, and maybe now.
It's not even under Biden. I think that all Democrat politicians are moderate because they feel like that's how they're going to reach independence. And like those random conservative voters who like the Obama voters, so you know, I think moderate is except for AOC Bernie Sanders, who in some ways. It's actually kind of moderate too, but has far more
leftist policies than most elan Omar Rashida Talib. You know, like there are a few left truly leftist politicians, but most of them are incredibly moderate, and so it would just be great to push her further left the way that all candidates on the left have been pushed left by progressive constituents. And we'll see what happens. And I do also believe it's great that we get to finally have political imagination again. I'm actually writing about this right now.
We have just been told like we have to vote between the ancient man and the ancient man, the ancient man who maybe is in decline, or the dictator who is going to end democracy and kill us all. It's not a choice, like we are not really given choices, and we kind of don't have a choice with you know, Kamala Harris, but we also do. I'm very encouraged. And you know, for so long people distablished excuse me, established democrats have been like not yet, not now, we have
to you know, get past this hump. And finally this time people put their foot down and said, no, we're doing it now, and I think if we can start now with Kamala Harris, I'm really encouraged by looking at the younger Democrats for twenty twenty eight. Well, at this point, there'll be twenty twenty thirty two if she is successful in her bid for the presidency and really start saying instead of tomorrow today. So I think this is the beginning of a shift, and I'm excited about that.
I'm so glad because yeah, it feels that way. It feels like I mean, I was in college when Obama was elected, but I feel just as excited, even more so because now I know what the hell's going on a lot more than just yay, we're excited black guys winning. Like now, it's like, oh, the stakes are high as the fuck, Like we gotta yes, call to action. I'm
very excited. Do you have any plans to I mean, you have so much going on, and I know that you're not you don't shy away from politics and your writing, but any plans to support the campaign? Host another?
Absolutely going to support the campaign. I'm going to be a campaign it what does that mean? It means that you do events on behalf of the campaign. You can host fundraisers, you know, just find ways of contributing and supporting the campaign. And I just I'm doing it because I remember in twenty sixteen I was supportive of Hillary Clinton, but I just didn't want to deal with nonsense. And also I was like, she's going to win, Like this
is the k Quah. There's simply no way that the former Secretary of State and United States Senator is going to lose too associopath, I was wrong, And it's not that I think that my support would have shifted the election. I'm not completely out of my mind. It's just that I was so worried about the wrong things that I didn't say enough given what was at stake. And I think you can be supportive of candidates while being critical
of candidates. And another thing we have to I think this is an opportunity for is to get rid of stand culture and politics, like we do not have to stand Kamala Harris to support her for president, and quite frankly, I think it's disrespectful to stand people to engage with them uncritically, like do you think she's incapable of withstanding critique as the literal vice president of someone a black woman, a South Asian woman, so accomplished. She's been there, done that.
She knows critique. She can handle it. I'm sorry, but she can. And so I think it's a really great opportunity for us to learn how to engage with people and do so in ways that are interesting and useful.
My love language is getting feedback. Maybe it's a writer thing, Like if there's an editor who reads my work and then it has no feedback, I'm like, so you hate me, Like so you don't care enough to think about this really carefully and like give that kind of feedback.
I have you mentioned Kamala as a black woman. So I posted something about her on social and someone said, stop calling her a black woman. She's not a black woman. What are your thoughts about? Like, I've been seeing that a lot.
This is not a mixed thing.
Is First of all, she's an AKA. Not that I mean you can be non black and be an AKA, but I mean, let's be b Yes, I know that I've seen at least one white AKA in my time. Wow, but like, be for real, she's also South Asian. I don't ever want to take that away. I think that when you're biracial, yes, you you come from two different cultures and you should have every right to acknowledge those cultures. But we live in a world, sadly that doesn't care. We live in a world that will tend to look
at her and her beautiful silk press as a black woman. First, she's a black woman.
And I thought that was only had to google. I'm like, so her dad is Jamaican black, Okay, like her mom is Asian. And I thought to myself, so we're all claiming, you know, President Obama as black. I don't think any. I've never heard a black person say he's not black, but then they're mean. But I just thought that was odd because I'm just like, if anything, she's even more brown. I just I'm not sure, like why for her is because I've been getting that a lot, which is she's
not a black woman, She's not a black woman. Stopped calling her that, and I'm like, what since Winda being Jamaican not so, I don't know if they mean like American black.
Well, there is a small segment of people, the Ados folks. Yes, they are like, nah, you know, she's not one of us, which is so unproductive. But I mean they say the same thing about me.
So yeah, me too because my parents are both Nigerian, although.
Yeah, my parents are Vocaitian and it is what it is. There's like I don't even like there's nothing to say to it, and like you're entitled to your beliefs. And I know I'm black, so onward we go.
I know, I'm like we had.
It's Monday so and sharing that. But you know, I just I think there are people who are going to waste their time between now and November fifth sort of debating her identity. Her identity is actually not up for debate. I look to people for how they identify, and I follow suit. I do that with regard to almost every aspect of identity, rather than trying to project what I think they should be or who they are. People are more than willing generally to tell you who they are,
and she identifies both. She identifies as biracial, but more often than not, she refers to herself as a black woman, and I don't think that means she denies her South Asian heritage. She seems to love her mother very much and seems to have had a very good relationship with her mother. It's front and center. I mean, her name is Kamala, so it's not ambiguous, and I just again it speaks to this reluctance that people have for nuance, like, oh, I don't want to think about anything that's just like
slightly too complicated. This is not actually complicated at all.
So well, I have a final question that I think for someone who's listening and they kind of want to get into your work, where would be a good place to start? They're like, like, who is Roxyne Gay? I want to I'm loving her, She's amazing. I want to read more of her things. Where's a good place to start?
If you listen to Brown Ambition and you don't know who Roxanne Gay is, we have bigger problems right now.
No, no, no, like I always remind myself no, Like, few people have read your work, relatively speaking, Roxane, so keep your shit together. I will say, A good place to start is Hunger, okay or bad Feminist? I think all of my work offers some semblance of who I am, for sure, but Hunger is certainly the most personal thing I've ever written, and Bad Feminists would give you a sense of my thinking, or at least my thinking. But the book was published ten years ago, but the essays
were written about twelve or thirteen years ago. And have I evolved, Yes, but I stand by everything I wrote in that book.
So you still go to scrabble matches?
Do you still do scrab I don't have time anymore, but I would. I sure would. I play scrabble every day though, so absolutely. You just never know when you're going to be called into action. I'm ready. Let's go.
Also, the New York Times, your columnists there, you have this new project. You can find the essay about ownership. I believe it's on July thirty first. It's coming out into the world through Everrand.
I think August fifth. I'm not sure. The date keeps moving, but I'm pretty sure it's August fifth. But if it's July thirty first, then.
I mean it was on July tenth when your publicist emailed us it was July thirty first. But we know it's fluidity. We're fluid.
You know everything's fluid. We're just going to go with the flow.
The point is go find it.
Maybe soon. It's going to be soon on Everrand formerly known as Script.
And it's not just you either. What I one thing that's apparent to me is how supportive you are of writers in your community, and like, I mean you held the workshop recently for novel like novel novel writing Workshop. And there's more than just you, you know, featured in this project right on everrand, So there's several several other authors that look fantastic. So we know black women make up such a huge, if not the biggest, feel like
readership in this country. And y'all love books, you'll love to read, so I definitely think check this out. You can also listen isn't it audio? Is it audio?
Or like it's both a e book and an audiobook, and I hope people check it out. And there are four other essays in the series by incredible writers. There's a woman who wrote an essay about the history of German shepherds and dog training. And it doesn't seem like something you'd be into because I'm not a dog person. However, like now, like anytime someone brings up a German shepherd,
I'm like, did you know? Which is great? And then Runda Gerrar, a Palestinian American writer, wrote about raising her son at seventeen and becoming a mother and learning how to become a mother, and the German shepherd essay is written by Elaine Castillo. Cookbook author and chef. Julia Turshen wrote about getting into powerlifting and recognizing her own strength and making peace with her body exactly as it is
and honoring her body as it is. And then Gabrielle Blot, his Beautiful Black Woman writer wrote an essay about her journey into psychedelics and sort of becoming a psychonaut.
I love it. I know Tiffany said final, but I didn't agree to that, So I have another question. I'm a negotiation coach. I actually do empower women. I'll tell you how I empower them to be a badass and ask for more. So I'm just wondering, like you are someone who as a writer like I just think a writer who has transitioned into this you know, empire, media, empire and powerful woman. And you're not just writing books like you are supporting yourself. You are. You are doing well,
at least from the outside looking in. I just wondered if you could share and like experiences or observations negotiating on your own behalf or having to figure out how to get your value. I am such a huge fan of you, but I wonder if you feel like you know in the world that you are in publishing, entertainment, whatever else, Like, are you having to fight for your value and your worth? And then how do you deal with that?
Yes, I still have to fight for my value and my worth. I'm a Yes, I think when you're a black woman, you always do. And sometimes I think, oh, I'm negotiating myself so well. I'm so proud of myself. And then I learned like what my peers are making and I'm like, what the fuck? I have a fairly no nolytaiculate that I have a great team around me.
I have an incredible entertainment lawyer who is an absolute shark, and I have a literary agent and a TV and film agent who are just phenomenal at what they do, and so they do everything in their power to get me as much as possible. And when I mean, it's just there's only so much you can do when like the person you're advocating for as a black woman, and it actually it's really fucking racist and sad to have to say that. It just shouldn't be this hard. It
shouldn't be this way. I shouldn't have to send this team out to get what I'm worth and when I'm advocating on my own behalf, it's also really challenging most of the time. I actually will say with this Everran project, it was not they were. They came correct the first time around. I didn't even have to push for what I wanted. They gave me what I wanted and then some and that was rare, and I wish it wasn't.
But you know, the main thing that I've done to be able to negotiate the way I want and to be able to work for the amount of money that I want is to have multiple income streams. So like I have a day jobs and I write, and I do some film and television. I obviously don't have children, so that frees up quite a lot of time. But I have put myself in a position and it's always been this way that you can tell me no, and
I'm going to be fine. I may not be able to go on an extra vacation perhaps or whatever, but I have a lot of financial responsibilities. And you know, my brother died and so he has his children that my other brother and I now look after. So I'm always going to make sure that my money is right and I am never going to rely on one source of income because you just can't trust it. And also like there are economic downturns, a pandemic, I always just
need to know. And it's partly I think the Caribbean mentality that I'm going to be okay no matter what. And I'll also just go work at Starbucks if i have to. I don't care. Money is money. A job is a goddamn job. And I've had a job since I was thirteen, so i am not afraid of work.
Yeah, and I'm so sorry for your loss.
Oh thank you, it was terrible. But go ahead.
I was going to ask if he you said during the pandemic is when you purchased your first gun, I wondered. I forgot if he had passed before that or no, tell his baby says okay, oh he was.
So now I'm actually the I'm the older sister. Oh your old Oh okay, yeah, Lord knows. He certainly moved through the world like he was the oldest, but now he was my baby brother, which was so funny. He was a typical medical middle child, but he actually did know. He's the one who gave me recommendations and like the minute you ask him about guns, rule little look. And so when I asked him, I was like, Joel in like ten words or fewer? Oh no, what should I do?
Of course he gave me a thousand words. But that's what makes him so lovable, and so he definitely knew and was like, helped me with the purchase. He offered to actually fly out to La to help me buy the gun. I was like, I think I can do it. I think I can. So after I bought it, I was like, I did it, Joel, I did it, and he was like, yes, all right, great, Now here are the bullets you need to get to.
Actually buy the gun.
Do you get it?
Like it's like going to buy a steak at the grocery store. Do you just pick it out, pay for it or like what's the timeline?
Basically, well, it depends on where you live. In some states you can go pick it out like a piece of meat and walk out the store. In California, you go, you pick out the piece of meat and then they hold it in the freezer for ten days. Okay, which is great.
They do.
It's annoying and that you have to like go back. But you can only buy one gun a month in California there has been a legal challenge to it. The state Supreme Court recently overturned it. But if for whatever, for whatever reason, the law is still in place, and I think it will be. I think it's probably going to go to the Big Supreme Court or the Ninth Circuit. And you know, I think that California's gun laws are restrictive and in a very healthy, insane way, like take
some time to think about it. Really, it's to prevent you from buying a gun in the heat of the moment, but also to allow the background check to happen. And so then after ten days you get a call or if you know, you're at an efficient gun shop, they'll tell you that day you buy, you like, you can
come back after three pm. You know, ten days from now, you go back, you pick up your gun, they do a safety demonstration, they make sure you have a gun lock, they give you a little case, and you can buy whatever else you need, and off you go.
Did you feel like did you feel welcome in that space? I'll say really quickly. In college I went with I had a black queer friend of mine, his name was Isaiah. We thought out of touch, but he was being bullied, so bad. I'm from Georgia. I went to the University of Georgia. Big historically, yeah, exactly, but he was being bullied in college. He did not feel safe. He said his neighbors were making threats to get hit against him.
He was out and I won't say like he was out and proud, but he was just himself, you know, and he didn't feel safe. He asked me to go with him. I feel like it was like a Dix or maybe it was Walmart. I don't know where we went, and they like were like, you guys need to get out of here, like they did not want to sell us a gun, and i' and then like they said, we'll call the police. It was so bizarre. I don't know, that's not how.
Any of this works, but I mean, obviously I can, but and you know, I did feel welcome. The thing about the store was like they weren't trying to be your little friend. However, these dudes all they do is sell guns and they love it, and so they were extremely helpful. They totally were great with a first time gun buyer. I've thought it was wonderful because I actually
don't need to be their friend. I need to be informed and they were really good about that, and in their own way, I felt like they were super nice. And you know, the thing about Los Angeles is it's a really diverse city, which is not to say that racism doesn't happen here and that there aren't segregated communities, because there are, but everybody lives here from every single like race or ethnicity, or religious background or whatever that
you can think of. And so most people here, it's are very capable of getting along with others and just being normal and so, well, California different than Georgia. It is, you know, and I was you know, it depends on you know, sometimes the South it's like, yeah, everyone knows how to get along, and then you go into circumstances like what you just articulated, and it's like, no, they don't actually as.
Long as you're moving in a way that they're okay with. Yeah, I mean you're in a space that they associate with. Yeah, well I live in New York. Now, So how do you like Batriod mentioned when you're talking about kids, I'm like, yeah, the worst financial decision in a lot of ways is to try to raise humans in this country, especially in a very expensive state like New York. But I don't know. It's don't ask me that now, because I was just in LA for a week. And when I tell you,
it's the drink xan. No one I knew about the sunshine and come on, but there's no mosquitoes I know and no mosquitos.
No one understands.
Why are they not putting this in the tourism the commercials.
As your man, bring your babies, come on over, We're ready for yousquito bite.
I came with the biggest deep deep woods. I was like, they have nature. Oh my god, incredible.
It is an absolute dream.
I love question a lot of choices now, so I will not I will defer, I will stop New York. I'm figuring it out. Okay, I'm on a journey.
Yeah, I live in New York. Have time, So I hear you. I hate I mean, I don't care for New York, but I love a New Yorker. My wife is a lifelong New Yorker.
And okay, are you guys like city people or burbs people when you live in New York.
We live in Chelsea.
Oh okay, Well, if you're going to live in the city, I think Chelsea is one of the best names.
Yeah, it's city. But I see trees once in a while, not like a lot of trees, but like a tree.
Not that many tourists.
Yeah, that's why I like living in NewYork. People have always had a lot to say about Nework. But I love living here because people are amazing I think. I mean, certainly you have you know who are not. But I love the community component. I love. What I really love about New York is I feel safe to be black here.
Wait, New York or Newark, Newark, New Jersey. Okay, yeah, I work in New Brunswick and so I passed new work all the time. I like And I also actually had it. Did an event at Rutgers Newark the other day. Yes, and a couple months ago. I like Newark, New York is cute. Soccer team there, the soccer stadiums there. Sorry, I know this is just a dumb but a New York is cute.
Yeah, Tiffany is like the mayor. She's being I'm not, but she is like so famous in Newark and you can't even go anywhere. People all know her there.
And I've talked for you, Tiffany.
No, I just love being black amongst black people. I think a walk every day. Sometimes I'm wearing my hoodie and I never think to myself, oh my gosh, I hope I don't. I'm not presenting us quote unquote dangerous
because it just feels safe to be black. You know, our mayor is super black aroused Baraka, you know, the son of the late Amri Baraka, which you know, and so just you know, he's dedicated to making sure the city is you know, it's a black city, and it's a city that you know, you get to show up as yourself, and their opportunities for us here and largely which I'm so happy is the neighborhood I'm in. Every time my house sells, we all hold our breath. We're like, who bought it?
Oh?
Yes, so so far it's not gone. It's not gone the way of Brooklyn. Just yet. People are holding still, although we all get phone calls all day all night about our property. But we've seen what happened to Brooklyn, and people are more careful now.
We looked at a house in Harlem the other day because I until recently had never lived I had lived in predominantly white communities, and it's swearing. You just get to a certain age where you're like, I don't want to have to justify my existence every day and look over my shoulder. And when the house owner opened the house and saw that I was black, they were so happy, and I was like, oh yeah. Someone else actually ended up buying it because I wasn't ready to move as quickly enough.
But I totally, hey, come on up to Greenberg West, just the historically black community. I had the same experience. The realtor was like, please buy this house. Black neighborhood, but gentrifying is coming, all right. I'm on the I'm on the air with two New York on air. I'm with two New York Times best selling authors and I can't not And I'm working on my first book, Roxanne with Hashet with Legacy Lit, incredible publisher. Any tips writ It's non fiction, but I'm just wondering heading into my
first baby. Have you started the book I started? I'm like three chapters in.
Good you know, write the book you want to write because your name is on the cover. Yes, and more. Do you have a black editor?
I do? Christian Trumpman. What she's amazing.
I actually just got my first black editor because my longtime editor left HarperCollins excited. I've never had a black editor for books before I.
Got two black editors.
Oh over tever.
Look at like no, no, but look at Legacy Krishan is the publisher of her own imprint at Hashet, and she is just doing the damn thing.
I love that.
But more about you go ahead?
No, I just and I think Tiffany would agree, but I would be curious to hear what Tiffany says as well. But it's your book, yes, And oftentimes people I always take editorial feedback. I'll start by saying that because I've been very lucky to have very good editors, and editors generally are trying to protect you from yourself, and they can see things that you can't see because you're too close to the work. So I really really believe in
the importance of listening to editors. But and this is I have my own imprint at Grove Atlantic, and this is what I tell my authors. I already have my own books, so I have some ideas about what your book could be, but it's your book, and so you want to stick to your guns. Also, if it is at all possible, and it isn't for most people, myself included most of the time hire an independent publicist. I did to support your efforts because excuse me, it's hard
to sell them. It's just really hard to sell books, very hard to sell books, and so you need all the help making it look very hard.
But I believe it kind of no one.
I absolutely agree that that it wasn't a big fight. My editor was not black, and certainly there were certain things that you know, it was a lot of great feedback, but there's sometain things that I'm like, I hear what you're saying. But that's one thing I do know is the audience that I'm trying to reach, and so I was determined that the book was going to sound like me feel like because I thought myself, one day, I'm
going to be walking in Barnes and Nobles. I want to be happy with the book that I'm pulling off the shelf, regardless of what happens. You know, that fail or succeed. I want it to be because of at
least it's something that I wanted to do. And so yes, fighting back when it needed to, but being open to receive feedback because there are certainly things I'm like, oh, you're right, and other things where I'm like, you're absolutely wrong on this, and the marketing component that actually was the bigger battle because their book publishers not booksellers, if
I'm being all the way candid. And so I had an independent publicist and even they fought me on some of the marketing components stuff, and I was like, well, I'm here now, like I own my own business. I know a market do whatever you're going to do, but it's actually not working now. Like I'm like the playbook, they're like, Tiffany, can you talk to this new No I thought y'all said I was wrong, you know. And so they use some of the things that I, oh.
They want you to coach their budding authors.
Yeah, which I'm like, no, I mean I give like I have. What I did was I have a bunch of mentees and I recorded this video and created notes, so I just share that freely, but I'm not going to I don't have time for one on ones, you know. But yeah, at one point it just got to be really bad where it was just like, you know, everything with everything I wanted to do was like and it doesn't work. And I'm like well, three hundred thousand boks later,
you're welcome. I'm now of course they're my besties. And the next harassment is when's the next one? I'm like, you tell me you write it?
Right, like, when when is the next one? What's up?
I know? But so I mean one day maybe. But even with that, that, to me, I do not consider myself a writer. I consider myself an educator. So rox side, I was a school teacher before I started my financial business, and so I told them when I have something to teach, and if that's the medium that I want to use. But I you know, I'm not I'm not someone who just writes. I mean, I kept the journal my whole life.
But for me, that book was like an extension of a curriculum or a lesson planned kind of you know. And so you know, they don't understand that because they were like.
Well, we'll just pay you money.
I'm like, yeah, but that's actually not moving me. Well, right is if I have a new lesson that I'm like this, the student must get this. So yeah, so man, it just.
Like that's why we love you, you know, just.
I would just say, yeah, write the book you want to write. Expect that you're going to do have to do ninety percent of your own marketing, and it's actually harder than writing the books. So bookle up.
Got my own podcasts that helps?
Yeah, no, it does. And like I don't know, Like.
I'm gonna tell you what podcast rock Sanne. I used to love it my podcast, so I did. It was a company that was a startup and they decided to create a walled garden for their podcasts, and they did so so long after people were used to getting free podcasts that I'm not quite sure it was going to work. Then they eventually opened up the garden and so podcasts would be exclusive for the first week and then it
would go out wide. And yeah, they were going to renew the podcast, but I think they sort of just ran out of money and had to sort of stick with They're sort of what they felt was their centerpiece podcast. So you know, these things happen. I'm gonna probably do a podcast again at some point, but we'll see you when.
And yeah, I mean, I think writing is one thing, but I don't know, not every writer is someone you also want to like hear talk all day long, Like I don't know, any year, I don't know, you always give me something new to think about. And I do have to thank you because I read what is his name? Crosby Razor Blade Tears. I believe you talked about cos Cosby, Yes, and I started reading his novels because I heard them on your show.
I mean, that man can write his ass off. Why is nice?
In your head? Do you picture who the celebrity who like the actor would be to play them? Because other than Addris Elba, like, who are you picturing in that role?
I'm gonna have to think about it because I'm thinking tall, dark and handsome, which there are many, there are many, but like he has to have a certain demeanor.
That's fine, We'll have something else to talk about when you know.
Time, I'll just be like, guess what, I finally cast that role for you?
Thanks?
But yeah, excellent author TIF if you have an essay, Crosby.
No, thank you so much for coming on our show.
Of course, thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for saying thank you. Wow wow wow wow wow.
Now you guys see why I'm crying.
It was just so genuine and kind, which that's where we hope that you took away that what I really love most about that interview is that you got to see that I think we live in a world everything is so black and white and waksan and gay lives in the gray. Yes, that's what you know.
That's a very eloquent way of saying what I was trying to say.
And it just feels like okay, because the truth and that we're all in the gray. It's supposed to judge yourself for not being black and white and ever no, She's just like, no, we're human. Doctor Green would say, so we're gonna punish ourselves for being human whenever, Like I have like some sort of back and forth with myself and I'm not really sure. And she's like, so you're human, and so I think this interview just helped to illustrate that you're not alone in your humanness. And
so it just was beautiful. Mandy, what do you think?
I think they say never meet your heroes, And I'm really happy that I got to prove that wrong.
The line that could determine that's a lie, a lie at least if.
You're going to meet them, meet them on brown ambition. So Tiffany can help carry the conversation while you are no internally losing it.
I feel we should call it Meet your Heroes. It's okay, I don't.
Yeah, thank y'all for listening, and I hope that we did a good job. I don't remember. I'll have to listen to it back. I do remember Tiffany trying to wrap it up halfway through, no, because I just I would.
Look at the time, like, what's our timeframe?
Oh gosh, I said, now she's gonna block my bosson No.
I'm I just I'm sorry.
Yeah. I was like, are we supposed to stop it too? I was just sure, so now that was I'm glad that that did not work. Mandy was like, girl, I don't know if she talked about anyway, which I.
Love anyway, so I have more question.
Yes, please share this episode if you enjoy it, do go.
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Is how I feel Living Legends? Yes?
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