We're back. We're back. The one is really nice. Randomly, what are you talking about?
The weather's nice? It was disgusting today.
No, it's actually like it's warmish.
It's warm, but it's like a blanket of death has fallen upon New Jersey and New York. It's so gray.
Yeah, I mean, like, what nice for Jersey winter.
Let's be real, Okay, I mean it's not like there's not two feet of snow, so I guess you got it. Yes, But I was like it was good, like stay in bed until two pm?
Whoopsie, Yeah, yeah it was. I could barely get out of bed today.
I was like, why I heard the vacum cleaner and I was like, I guess I'll get up clean now.
How do you know?
Oh so guys it's brown and bush and yeah yah, yeah you know.
Yeah, we're here, be in here. Thank you for coming back for another week.
Yes, before we do we how.
Many sixty six are sixty six or so? Txty seventh show? I always have to check every week.
We're in our golden years.
We are we can get social Security financial nerd joke. I know they're like, what but before we get into the show and it's a very exciting shoul We have a cool guest today, cool updates from Tiffany on the Dreamcatchers and the Literature Challenge today. But before all of that goodness, we want to ask again. At the end of the show last week we mentioned this, but we really would like your support leaving us reviews on iTunes.
We know that you guys love the show. We've had a record months so far with down loads and subscribers. So thank you, thank you, thank you, yes, thank you for supporting our little show. But do you really want to show your support more than subscribing? You could go to iTunes and leave just a short review with you know, five stars, however you feel about it that day, five stars, five stars know So Mandy Hat Someone email message us on Facebook and said, how do you do that? It's
kind of okay, how do you do that? So if you're listening on your phone, just go to your my podcast app if you have an iPhone maybe you have there's a different way on the Android. But if you go to where we listen to our podcast, you should be able to click our name and go to our show page and you can write a review there. I
think it's actually easier just to go to Google. Go to Google, or open up your iTunes and look for Brown Ambition Podcasts in the iTunes store, and easily, right there you'll see a tab I think it's in the top left corner that says write a review. And it's literally like a two second process. I don't think you'd have to sign in. I think you just have to you know, lead. I don't think you can probably do it anonymously.
If somebody knows, tweet us.
Yeah, troubleshoot it support.
Yes, if somebody out there knows, someone's like no, that's not how you do it.
But after last week's show, we had about twenty or thirty new reviews, So thank you. Let's just get even more because, like I said, it's for some reason, iTunes just loves the podcast that have more reviews, and it's actually pretty heavily weighted besides just the number of people who are downloading. So I've learned that I would like to really push us up in the rate, and I think that's the way to do it.
So get reviewing, Yes, thank you.
Unless it's a one star and then you can stay home.
Nobody cares about those. So how is your week.
My week was a week. It was a busy, busy week.
You know.
I talked about doing Hello Fresh and I was super excited.
Yeah, so I need you to resend me that link.
Did you not use my free box?
Yeah?
She left money on the table.
It was like a week and I started to I started to apply, but I was waiting for my new card in the mail.
Oh go, mind, wait a second, are you like my father? She literally just pulled her card out of her cardholder and there was a a Vental floss pick behind it. My father keeps one in his wallet.
You never know.
So I was waiting for my new my new card in the mail, so I didn't have it at the moment when you so, if you can reacend it, because I do want to try.
Hell, I'll see if I got another one. But this week I did. I didn't plan it very well because we had a lot of afterwork engagements. Okay, I opened the fridge today and we have three meals left from our form four meals. Yeah, so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna cook one for lunch and then you do one for dinner. We'll do one for lunch tomorrow because okay, I want to go bad and you know.
You know for sure that would be crazy.
But what happened this week? Oh my goodness, Oh you know I have an update on the well shoot other than the world ending and yes, the you know it has happened. Voldemort has the elder wand and he's taken over the country.
But okay, because our fearless heroes are still trying their best.
Are Yeah, the women of the world were out there.
Yes.
Oh it was so like well suising to my soul yesterday to see all the women.
Around the world. That's what really like touched me. It was like, wow. It wasn't just I heard all seven continents participated.
Or Antarctica, yes, Penguin's.
March, but I heard somebody was like, yo, do you know you got to be a bad, a terrible person.
Indeed to get people in Arctica to.
Out, they're like negative five thousand degrees. What I need to see pictures.
Yes, I think I'm going to google it. I'm gonna be google it. But yeah, I heard all seven consonants.
I was really depressed because I got really sick yesterday and I had The march started around eleven thirty in New York and I was really a sick, the kind of sick where you don't want to be too far from facilities, if you know what I mean. So I didn't go, and then we had plans later that day.
But I was on Instagram all day scrolling through and liking every single picture and they were just some amazing the signage, and I love seeing the moms out there with their little kids and really beautiful Women's March protests Reach Antarctica photos. That's a good number of people Antarctica. That's like twenty five.
That's thirty people ant Look, that's crazy. It's actually a really good number of people.
Oh, they were on an expedition trip seven and I couldn't get out of my apartment all seven consonants. Well, I'm ashamed, but I did read that there were more people at the Women's in DCA than what's his face is inauguration, which he actually.
Had a press conference about which I thought, Wow, your ego so salty.
I mean, seriously, you know, none of the press conference. He went to the CIA to talk about national security, and that's where he decided to call out the media for sharing that photo. If you haven't seen it yet, it'll it'll soothe your soul like a sue mine. It's the two thousand and nine inaugural crowd compared to twenty seventeen, which is amazing. There's like half the number of people.
I think, I think one less than that. One third the number came out for Trump as they did for Obama and nine, which that was amazing.
It was I had the giggles.
You needed that too, because it was such a dark day. It was Friday. Oh, it felt like Friday the thirteenth or something.
And what it goes to show you is that, like, because you know, when when when he won, we were all confused, like do more people really?
Do they really feel like this?
Is that, you know? And just the fact that way more people came out for the marching than than for the the march for him, I guess you could call it it just I'm not certain what happened as far as the election is concerned and why it's swayed in that direction. But I think that that he has woken a sleeping giant. And I think that people are like, oh,
because I think so many people. To me, they weren't pro Hillary and they weren't necessary, but they definitely were not pro Hams, so they were just kind of chilling.
And now they're like, whoa, whoa.
Because it's real now he was elected.
Yeh, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I can no longer just kind of chill on the sideline. I have to do something, And I think I thank him honestly for that, because I think that there is no more powerful movement than people who are joined together under a common cause. The downfall of you, my cheated delicious friends, is cheating cheato.
The news chet was the other one.
Lovey has like if you don't know lovey awtimately love you dot com. Right. She has this great uh, this great blog post of why will still continue to disrespect how she plans.
She came off like a how long hiatus, like a month long as in her first business of order was to take down Trump and continue to pledge to take him down. Yes, I feel like that's what's happening. Though, I feel like artists especially, but anyone out there, it's never been like this is a call to actually like, it's never been a more important time to get involved, to speak up, to get your life right, yep, to
prepare yourself and protect yourself from whatever is coming. I mean one of the first things he sat down in his you know chair to do in the old Oval office, which makes my stomach hurt thinking about it, was to start walking back Obamacare, start setting the stage for that. And he even cut the homeowners first time homeowners yeah, insurance tax cut. Yeah, that's random. Yeah, like just why you know, and I know, and I mean not even
about Trump. I mean, you know, I got into a little texting war with some family members or just one in particular, who I won't name, who I suspect was a Trump supporter and I you know, and I was and they were like, you know, he's president, just get over it. And I'm like, it's not about him. It's like everyone he is bringing into power around him.
It's not.
And that's what I read that. That's the part that's what irritated me. I'm like, people are so self centered and then they're thinking, oh, this is just you guys whining. It's honestly, it's not. That's not what this is. It's about the policies that are now going to be going forward. Did you see it was like so epic this Facebook
post that became viral. Now, this young guy that was like, oh my god, I'm so glad you know that he's gonna do president, because now we can get rid of this Obamacare and it's he started to like like talk about it.
He was saying.
Somebody was like, don't you use what is Obamacare? The real official name is ACA Affordable Care right, And he was like, yeah, so maybe this affordable care I think can really get a chance. And they were like, they were like somebody was like yeah, somebody was like, don't you use affordable care. Yeah, that's what I use, but I don't use Obamacare. They're like, that's the same thing. He's like, no, it's not. He was like, they were like, yo, it is so epic, and you could see.
He told me.
The White House was so against Obamacare becoming a thing that everyone said, because then you could point it to the enemy and attach it and forget what it actually does.
So he actually voted against the only health insurance that he was able to get because it was called Obamacare. And they were like, wow, you literally voted against your own health and he was silent. I'm like, why is this Somebody actually wrote why is this post still?
Love?
I would delete this as soon as possible.
But I just thought to myself, Wow, I wonder how many people voted against themselves out of fear and ignorance because they did not realize like if you have a child, that's that's you know, above twenty six, you know, or below but twenty or like what above eighteen?
Now what does it?
It had to be younger than twenty six, like.
Right, that was before, right you used to at least be able to be like, oho, I didn't get a you know, I don't have a job just yet, but I could still be under my parents, you.
Know, insurance.
And now that's not that you know, that's in danger of not being so or pre existing diseases like that's just.
I mean, it wasn't It was just a few years ago that you could have had cancer, which is out of your control, and if you needed insurance you wouldn't get it, like or diabetes even could have just qualified you from health care.
But like, my nephew has full blown sickle style and yeah, we just found out. And I was just like, well, not just found that, but you know, and I was just thinking about that, like, so what does that? What does that mean? You know, this is a pre existing condition, you know, and it just made me really work, you know, because that hit really close to home, like there's going to be a cap of how much insurance.
He might reach that cap by the time he's five. Then what happens?
You know?
Yeah, my father as soon as Obamacare or sorry, the Affordable Care dot came into being, the Healthcare dot Gov was launched that very first year, I signed my dad up and he's been My family, A lot of them are morbidly obese, and he's a diet He was a diabetic and he was morbidly obese, and one of the first things he did was he went and got his all of his checkups. And he hasn't had insurance since I was ten or eleven because he quit his job and went up to be an entreprene were in launch
of restaurant business, and he never had insurance. He survived because he had friends see the medical profession who would give him, like, you know, a discount on dental services and things like that. But he became really unhealthy and he went in all his checkups and his doctor was like, it's time you need to get gasher bypass surgery. And he got the surgery, which probably saved his life. He's no longer diabetic and Obamacare covered it.
Like all of it.
Wow, and he's like a whole different person now, so healthy. And it makes me and it just sort of shatters me to think that people you know, like my father won't have access because they chose not to work for a company, which is a lot of people, you know.
I'm like, and even then I've just been reading I have not I'm not gonna lie, I don't have all the details, but like, there are even people who even if you work for a company, there are.
Things that don't get covered. Yeah, which is just like sol.
I just got my dental bill, so believe me.
Yeah, I just I don't know.
I just it's a scary time. And I've been being very careful about how much I've allowed myself to ingest because it gets really scary, really scary, not.
Not just frustrating him mad.
And I think that's what a lot of Trump supporters saying, Oh, you guys are a bunch of winers. No, it's people. Yes, we're people mad and upset. But now there's real fear that is setting.
To be fearful. Yeah, I think it's more important than ever to pay attention though, because someone needs to be watching, you know, the media needs and it's such a scary it's like a it's a weird tightrope because you want to be on him and watching him and be like an aggressive reporter. But then you see what he does when he doesn't like what you report about him. He shuts you out, he shuts you down. It's going to be really fair. I'm going to be watching like a hawk.
I mean one of the I mean again, I say that one of the first acts he did as president was go to the CIA to protect our nation from outside terrorist attacks and decided to, you know, talk beef with the media for posting a tweet you know of a black sture, which is just like you know, Michelle Obama. But the I go they go low, we go high. He's just always low love. He doesn't know how to go and he hire and mo Michelle everyone you saw the inaugural, like the one takeaway wasn't that Michelle gift
or the Michelle meme? Like someone caught her in a dirty look and it was I did I did feel like the weather was like responding to did you see the w yo? That was what comes so adorable.
First of all, I was like, because somebody, please help this man with a show. I don't know how to get this or don't like use a poncho. It was like the Pancho the hood was like to his faith. He was like, I don't know how it got into this.
I just was like, w W. I just wanted to be like, I just what was Laura?
You just take this the type of thing she had the bathroom br you take.
Of your kid, you like to stop it, just stop it.
When did he become so cute? And like I kind of look at him, I'm like, I don't get you have started him for yeah?
Right, you almost wished for him back. Paint me a picture.
G W.
Did you see he's actually a pretty good painting.
Yeah he is. He is a good painter, somebody wrote.
And I thought this was interesting that there was a picture of him painting and the painting is actually pretty good. Someone said, this is this is a clear cut example of when kids are pushed into things that you know that are really what their parents went not with they want. He might have made an amazing artist versus you know, the destroyer of the free world.
But you know, yeah, i'd prefer him in an art school.
Yeah, but you never know, maybe that's what he really enjoyed. And it was like, no, this is what you're doing.
You're going to be the president. Yes, well they were there, you know, Hillary, but I watched the beginning when they were you know, before they come out for the actual speech. They are all inside the Capitol and they're like being presented, kind of like at a debutante ball. And I saw Bill and Hillary preparing and you could see her, you know, that lovely white suit, do you like a like steal herself? And I was like, girl, I can't even imagine. Can
you imagine having to go out in that stage? What's like? And then and then as soon as she got out, the smile came on and the campaign lights hit her and you can see her just like switch come on. Yeah, And I really like that moment of humanity, like.
Yeah, this is this is this is real life and this is crazy. But I hate put on my brave face.
And I could tell Michelle was like not into it.
And yes, I thought, wow, my friend, my best friend lind to call me. She's like, girl, Michelle thought, I'm over a ponytailing every black girl knows that Poe.
They're like, you know what, don't worry about it. You didn't got to do. No, just just put it back to be president.
That's exactly to put this big conon this.
I don't care, like you know what, I'm not even trying to come out here stunt like I used to.
And Malania tried so hard to be her friend.
Yeah, I was like, I feel honestly, the truth is I feel kind of bad for her because.
I can't tell why I feel bad for her though she's as strong, you know, she's she got herself in this position. Yeah, somebody wanted when you saw her dancing with him, that looked really uncomfortable. She was held hostage.
Yes, somebody posted a beame said again if you need help twice.
And I was rollic. I was like, that's how I feel. I feel like I want to be like, are you okay?
Are you okay? I hated how smug is kids all looked like, oh daddy in the White House.
I got this now.
Yeah, but stay woke. If you want a place you know, in this WEE podcast, I'm gonna post some links to some great organizations if you want to vote with your dollars, which is what I've been doing. I've been pumping money into things like planned parenthood, environmental organizations because if you don't know, our president doesn't believe in climate change. So
I'll post some links if you want to. There's actually a great Gothamas story with with good organizations to donate tokay, and then go find your local I'll try and post a link to where you can find your local senator or congressman, because they're the ones who are going to be the gatekeepers here, you know, voting for you know, the policies he's put he's going to put forward as people will put forward. So if you feel like you can't do anything, you can. If you didn't get to
march yesterday, that's okay, you can. You can show your support in other ways.
Yeah, for sure.
Nothing nothing works better than a dollar like actually, you know, putting your money where your values are.
Ye?
Oh lord, are you ready to break or boost? I don't even feel like a boost these days.
What there's gonna be something?
No?
Well, I do want to take a a brown break from the folks on because I mean, my my social media was largely positive about the Women's March. But there were a few people that actually really respected that were speaking disparagingly about it, and I was like, something, Yeah, I was actually surprised because they're, like I said, there were people who, you know, I'm used to, you know, you have some friends, You're like, Lord, here they go.
But there were people who I was like, really, not you.
What were they saying?
What was what was so marching is not going to do anything, and it's better to put your you know, put action towards you know, whatever it is.
And you know, and so this is what I said.
This is gonna sound a little rudimentary or whatever, and sophomore, but I don't care.
So you know how we love Harry Potter.
Right, yes, And we know how the defeat of He who shall not be named, and that although Harry had the clearly pivotal role in making that happen, they were all of these supporting roles.
That were the Order of the Phoenix.
Huh.
Yeah, and just equal it's important from like, you know, from who's that little weird girl looming?
Everyone ever all killed the snakes.
If not for the snake, he wouldn't have gotten the seventh part of Voldemort's soul.
And so I have all that to say is that, like, everybody's role is important. That yes, you mister intellectual or missus intellectual, whatever you might be, you know, building a nonprofit organization that teaches girls, that's great, But people marching is also part of the larger picture of change. And that's the part that I'm like it makes that made me a little like upset with them, is that that
change doesn't just happen in one singular, focused way. That all of these things matter, and that you might think that like, oh, marching doesn't do anything but one you don't know that how can you know that that there could be a young girl in the march who goes on to create a policy that goes on to you don't know, there's so many things and almost three million people march, how can you say that nothing, that that has done nothing, if not, but to motivate people to go home and do more.
So I say this.
Is that whatever way that you've chosen to change the world around you, do that and then allow others to choose for themselves how they're.
Going to express that change, you know.
And so that was like my kind of brown break of like people tearing down you know, other people who were just trying to do something, you know.
Right, Yeah, it's a positive thing. There's always going to be people are going to try to politicize it. There were people women of color who was saying they didn't feel like the organizers were inclusive enough.
But it wasn't that a moment of color that started it.
But I don't actually know.
Yeah, if her name was Tasha something other, I feel like I kind of got away from her.
But I really know it was with those pictures that I saw, the celebrities that were out there. It was a rainbow of beauty. And you know what, maybe it did get politicized, maybe they were, you know, making money off her or whatever, But like, you're never going to see a moment like that, Yeah, I haven't in my life. It was a crowd of hundreds of millions, or not hundreds of millions, but millions of women out there, not just women, but men too, with their children, and it was a beautiful thing.
And I her name was Tamika Mawory. She it was the brainchild of a woman named Tamika Maori. She is the executive director of the National at Action Network.
Young Girl Oh wow, Yeah, Tamika Mallory. Mm hmm, well then everyone should be singing her praise.
Yeah, but it kind of I get it. It kind of grew beyond her.
Because you needed permits, it needed to be organized, It became a whole. There had to be stages Madonna performed. But I think.
Exactly, I think that it was just her initial call to action. It led to people. But do you see what I mean? Somebody might say, oh, Tamika, you're just talking, but look at her initial call to action and how it rippled to this, and so to me, there is no small thing to do.
I think people just get automatically cynical when something big happens, like when it becomes bigger than like the grassroots. You know, yeah, that's you know it should that's the way it should work. You should have a small group making a larger voice, and then they make a larger voice and just expands and expands until everyone you can't not pay attention. No one did not see that mark yesterday. Mister Voldemort himself probably saw that and was humping around the White House.
Sam mad in the world and think in the media was to blame. But like that message just proved I mean, that's the kind of message that no one can ignore. It's a powerful thing, and all the women out there, it was just you know thing, thank you for doing.
That, so boost of women and our awesomeness and a break to those sometimes who can't say anything nice. So maybe they shouldn't say anything at all. So I got this random song in my head, He's on down, E's on down, Come on.
You know what it is?
I think it's because you're wearing this beautiful gold scarf and it's making me think of Is.
It because they were live during the inaugural. Who was it that started? I think it was Jamila Lamo from Uh. She started she encouraged everyone to live tweet the whiz.
I love the pet No.
First of all, nobody was more petty than BuzzFeed with the countdowns to next to lin. I'm here for all this petty. So anyway, I know we have we hardly ever have guests hod Hot.
Well when we do, they're awesome.
Yes they are, And we have an awesome guest today.
I get to chat with a really incredible author. I was really uh excited that she said. Yes, it's always surprising when they want to come on the show. But I read this book called The Unbanking of America. The name it's great, right, how the new middle class in America survives. And it's by a writer professor at U Penn, professor of city planning named Lisa Servaan. I hope, I said her last name, right, We practice this and the entire book is really it's it's fascinating. I mean, you're
we we know what's out there. I mean the banks are so expensive now that people are turning even more to these like alternative banks, like check cashing businesses are exploded. Payday lenders have never been bigger, pawnshops even title loans, all these types of products that are super expensive, but people turn to them anyway.
And so like why and what can you do?
Yeah, And a lot of people are like condescending about it, like yeah, if only they knew, like it's really expensive. They're so dumb, why don't they just go to a bank. What I loved about Lisa's book, again it's called The Unbanking of America, is that she really wanted to know why are people we'll go into these services. The math isn't adding up. Millions of people are doing this and yet I know that not everyone is an idiot. They're not doing because they don't know any better. There has
to be a reason. So she didn't just do the research although she is a researcher and professor. She actually got jobs at a payday lender in Oakland, California, and at a check cashing business in the Bronx, the South Bronx in New York and spent months working down in the trenches with these people and talking to people one on one to find out why they were using these services and what's happened to the banking industry in America and why there are no better alternatives for people out there.
So here's my chat with miss Lisa Servan on Brown Ambition. You can check out her book at Lisaservan dot com. She also has a Tumblr page called money Stories dot tumblr dot com where she collects stories from people out there who are sharing their experiences in the banking industry. So you have a story, go to Moneystories dot tumblr dot com or lisaservon dot com and send her a note. Without further ado, here's my interview with Lisa. Lisa, thank you so much for coming on Brown Ambition.
Thank you for having me it's great to be here.
So I'm really really excited about your book because I feel like in the book, again is called the on Banking of America, How the middle Class, How the New middle Class Survives, And one of the most compelling parts of the book aside from the fact that you actually wanted to see how people out in the world, real people are using these alternative banking services like payday lenders and check cashing companies. But you didn't just want to
do the research like a lot of people do. I mean, you went out there and actually worked in the businesses and were right face to face with these customers. And beyond that, what I loved about the book is that I feel like you had some respect for people, and you know, the people who were using these services, and you genuinely wanted to know, you know, what is it that's driving you to use these services even though they're
like super expensive. So I guess my first question is what surprised you when you got face to face with people and asked them, you know, you know what is driving you to use these these pricey services like petie lenders and check cashing.
Right, that's a great question, you know, I wasn't surprised. I knew there had to be a better answer than simply these people are ignorant or if they only knew what I know, you know, kind of middle class white lady, they would do what I do. And which is why I went to the field, because I felt like I couldn't get that the answer to that question by just
you know, reading reports or looking at statistics. So I wasn't surprised that people had a good answer, but I was surprised what their reasons were.
And the reasons were, I would say the first.
One surprised me in particular that so many people told me that the check cashers they used, in particular were cheaper than banks, because I think when you read about this stuff and.
This issue and people who.
Call the predatory and that they're part of the poverty industry, et cetera, the first thing they say is they're expensive. Why would so many people be using them? And I can say more about that. But the other two reasons, which were also surprising were that these businesses were much more transparent than banks. It was much easier for people to figure out how much they were going.
To be charged and when they were going to be.
Charged, and they often felt like they were being tricked at banks. And the third thing was that they felt like they got much better service at the Czech hashers and at the pay day landers than they did from their banks. And so I was really surprised that those were the reasons. You know, I knew it had to be something that made a lot of sense, but I didn't know what it would be.
Yeah, when you say that the service element, I saw that every day. I moved to Inwood, Manhattan with my fiance who his family's Dominican. I lived there for about eight months earlier this year, and we lived right across the street from this giant like cashing palace I called it sometimes. It had two entrances, and it looked really super nice and it was like lit on Friday there. Everyone came to the check cashing place, and it's sort of, yeah,
it was part of the fabric of the community. And do you feel like the what's behind that is just the fact that banks have gotten so much less prevalent in people's everyday lives, especially a sensory session. It seems like, you know, people you see banks closing up their brick and mortar locations, so you know, is it a symptom of just the fact that big banks have sort of been moving out of these communities, or that they were never there in the first place.
Think, I think it's part of it that that banks are moving out, and you know, that's related to the change in banks business models as well. Right, So many of us, myself included, actually like being able to.
Bank online at night or on the weekend.
Or whatever and not have to go and stand in a line. So I think we've all kind of voted with our consumer behavior in that way. But it also banks are also creating an incentive for us to do that. You know, they recognize that a one transaction at a teller costs a dollar and a transaction online cost a couple of pennies, so they save a lot of money.
And you know, I've been in bank teller lines where someone has come over and said, you know, can I show you how to use the ATM to do that, you know, clearly wanting me to develop a different kind of habit, right than going to the teller line. So I think that's part of it. Part of it is also the different business models. So you know, the things that you do at a check casher you can't do
in a bank or you can't do online. Right, If you have a physical check and you want to cash it, well, you could deposit it in your bank and now you could take a picture of it. But what stops a lot of people and causes them to go to the check hasher instead is that it'll take days for.
That check to clear.
And if you know, if I go to the check casher, I get my money right away. But other kinds of things like sending money to relatives overseas, people can't do online.
So that's kind of part of it too. The guy who was who was the president of the check cashing firm where I worked in the South Bronx, he would say banks want one customer with a million dollars and check cashers want a million customers with one dollar because check ushers actually make their money from people coming in over and over again and doing transactions, whereas banks really
would rather you didn't come in at all. And I think part of when you talk about the relationship, we have in the process lost that relationship, and for many people that's valuable, particularly if they're kind of living close to the edge and they don't have a large monthly balance, they sometimes actually need help from a banker, and it's much harder to get that now.
Yeah, I mean, and it's just so expensive like that. Of course you would feel you'd be so afraid of getting that thirty five dollars overdraft fee that you know, one or two dollars fee every time you kash should check probably seems like nothing compared to that. It almost feels like the banks are saying, you know, we don't want you anyway, so if you can't handle these fees, well then there's you know, nothing for you here.
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like if you don't have a large balance, you know that qualifies you for this whatever it is, City Bank Gold or other preferential treatment. You know, we're going to just make money off of you from fees. And it's really about in the eighties that banks started really switching how they made their money off of consumers.
Where it used to be interest income.
And you know, you'd get three percent, you'd get three percent interest on your savings account, and you'd pay six percent for a loan, but interest rates were volatile. The savings and loan crisis kind of showed how that could work. And not be good for banks. And then they discovered that they could make a ton of money off of fees, over draft fees being the biggest culprit banks made. I believe it's thirty two billion dollars in twenty fourteen from overdraft fees. So that's a lot of money.
One fee alone. Yes, so let's keep ants on for them and then hurting exactly right, millions of people out there and not can people understand this either? You know, my day job Magnify, we get a lot of emails from people who can't even join a bank because they're you know, there's a system called checks where your record, your bank and checking behavior is tracked, and then if you have too many overdraft fees, it's like you're blacklisted.
That's right, Which is that's.
Right either way?
Yeah, there are a couple of million people in the United States that cannot get a bank account at all. So that's a really important point that there are lots of people who can't get a bank account because they've had maybe too many instances of overdraft. You know, these systems are all prone to failure too, so there are plenty of people who've gotten booted out of their bank for a very small problem or because of a clerical.
Mistake, and they cannot get back in even.
You know, in the banks to your point use this check system and they share the information. So if I have a problem at one bank, another bank is likely to use the same software and they won't let me start get an account there either.
So you know, for some.
People they're pushed out, they haven't opted out.
Yeah, And I can sort of see how then you would run to the check cashing place and sort of feel a place of companionship or at least like comfort level. They're in your neighborhood. They'll probably look like you and speak like you, and no people like you, and it probably feels a lot more comfortable. Did your opinion of these, you know, check cashing places and patia lenders? Did it change?
Because I know I'm definitely have been in that like very black and white world of oh they're all terrible and they're just completely predatory. How did your opinion of them change throughout the course of your research and writing the book?
You know, it definitely changed.
I wasn't really studying consumer financial services when I started doing this, but the way that the story about how I started doing it.
Doing the research.
The way I did was that I had a check casher come to a class I was teaching and talk about what he did. And you know, the only literature that I could find find to assign to my students. I mean, I, like you, I assumed that these guys were up to no good. You know, they were charging people too much, they were making money off the backs of the poor in ways that weren't exactly ethical, and that was pretty much, you know, the good research I could find was saying the same thing.
And then when Joe Coleman, my.
My boss, ultimately my boss at the check cashing store, came he really had a very compelling argument about why he thought his businesses were.
Helping people in low income communities.
And you know, I didn't kind of buy the story hook line and zincer, but I it made a lot of sense, you know, which led me to go and work in the stores. And I, if anything, so I tried to go in kind of with an open mind, but if anything, I was in that camp of like, there's something wrong here.
You know, this costs way too much money. And I realized that.
People were often making rational, logical decisions by choosing to manage their money with check cashers and sometimes pay day lenders.
Did you feel like there is you know, and there maybe are some less terrible pay day lenders out there. I know in a lot of states, quite a few maybe over when was it nineteen now or twenty that states that actually cap? Because what really kills people with payday loans? We kind of switching gears to talk about them. Yeah, what really kills people is the interest rate, right, I mean it's you, and it's never like someone it's usually
people don't just borrow that one time. They usually have to do a roll over loan, and then you get charged interest on that and then the fees and over and over again, and all that interest ends up being like hundreds of percentage points. And in some states that's different. I think in New York the interest rate cap has been set by officials so low that you can't even really operate here and make money as a payday lender anymore.
But do you feel like enough is being done to rein in the guys who really are bad actors out there?
Well? I think so.
The first point you make, I think, or the last point you made, was that there are good actors and bad actors, and I think that's true in almost any industry. And pay day lending is illegal. I can't remember right now if it's twelve or thirteen states. New York is one of them. So there you can't. Well, technically you can't get a payday loan in New York State. However, it's pretty easy to get an online loan by an out of state.
Rights are nuts.
Yeah, and there are hundreds of thousands of loans that get made in New York State each year online because it's very difficult to stop that business. Having said that, yes, you're absolutely right that the cost is expensive. Right, So when I said that people chose check hashers because they're cheaper than banks pay day lenders, what happens is they're expensive, but people who need the money typically feel like they
don't have another option. Maybe they're maxed down on their credit card, or they don't have a credit card, they don't have anyone in their friend or family network that they could borrow from, or they don't feel right about doing that. A lot of people told us about you know, if I borrow money from my mother for my college duition, she'll never let me hear the end of it. You know, I can't even go to Starbucks and get a cup of coffee because I might run into her and she'll
she'll make me feel bad. So but the problem is that you take out one of these loans, and maybe not everybody who's listening knows what they are, but they're generally loans of between fifty and three hundred dollars. They're called payday loans because they're due on your next payday in full, and the intro.
The fees are very high.
So the place that I worked, which was in Oakland, California, charged fifteen dollars per one hundred dollars lent. Now' it's pretty high. But let's imagine you take out one hundred dollars and you pay it right back in two weeks. Maybe it was worth it to you to get that eighty five dollars, you know, and pay the fifteen. But as you noted correctly, a lot of people get to that point where their next paycheck comes in and they
can't afford it. They still can't, they don't have the extra money, and so they do what's called a rollover, which is they get that one hundred dollars again. And they pay another fifteen dollars, So that's you know, this is what angers consumer advocates because they feel like the loan is being sold as a very short term loan, but then it's not being used in the way that
it's advertised, and that is a problem. The Consumer Finance Protection Bureau, which is the government agency that was created as part of Dodd Frank just a few five and a half years ago, is for the first time issuing some regulation.
On payday loans.
And most of these what I call alternative financial services providers, like pay day lenders and check hashers, they are regulated at the state, not the federal level, which which is why you have different situations from one state to another. So for the first time, a federal agency will regulate these agencies, and one of the things that's going to do is mandate that the lender verifies the borrowers' ability to pay. That's the easier said. It's a great idea, it's easier said than done, but.
Kind of like a credit card company.
Yes, at the exactly exactly, so you know, the idea is to kind of keep people from getting in trouble by taking out too much money, and it'll be One of the things that will happen. Partly as a result of that is people will also be making and the industry has already started doing that. They're issuing more installment loans as opposed to this traditional payday loan, which is a lump sum loan.
You get it all and then you owe it all back.
So that will help consumers because they won't have to come up with all the money at once. So I do think that some good things are happening in terms
of regulation. The fact that lenders will have to charge will have to verify someone's ability to pay means they're going to have to take a little time between when you apply for that loan and when they give you the money, even if it's a couple of hours, and that will allow other business who work charging less to compete with them and hopefully lower the price.
You know, I've had family members who have taken out title loans and payday loans and have been afraid to admit it, but they have, you know, later on, and when I ask them why, they're like, well, I just needed to write then, and I was I was, you know, thank god I had that, because I don't have an emergency fund and you know, with regulations like I'm all about the CFPB. I love them, I love the work they're doing. I'm worried for their future. I think, like
a lot of people are. But what's out there for people who may need those loans and may not have emergency funds set aside, and you know, may feel like with these regulations that they're actually limiting their options for cash flow when they when they run into you a hard time.
Well, that's a terrific point.
And you know, I think so much of the conversation around payday lenders has been about the businesses, and if anything, it's been a sort of a paternalistic understanding of consumers saying like they don't know any better, So you can't make.
These loans to them, because they'll get in too much trouble and it'll be worse for them, you know.
And I went out not only did I work in the payday lendering the shop and also in the check hashing store, but I also interviewed scores of people who had taken out the loans apart from you know, serving them across the counter, and so many people told me that they didn't like the loans necessarily they thought they were expensive, but they felt like they really needed them.
When they didn't have any other option.
And you know, one of the things I try to draw attention to in my book is that that is the situation for an increasing number of Americans. Fifty percent of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. Fifty percent could not come up with even two thousand dollars in the event of an emergency. And that means not just you don't have two thousand in the bank, but you don't
have anyone that you could borrow it from. And so I heard lots of stories of people saying, you know, I either take out this loan and I know it's expensive, or I lose my job because I can't fix my car unless I take out the loan and I can't get to work without my car. Or my kids are sick, you know, Or my kids are sick and I can't take them to the doctor, or my kids are hungry and I need to buy them food. And so, you know, I'm fortunate enough in my life that I've never had
to face that kind of dire awful choice. But more and more Americans these days are facing that choice, and many people said, I didn't like the loan, but I'm really glad it was there because otherwise my kids would have been hungry.
Otherwise I would have lost my job.
And so, you know, at the same time that we're talking about reforming the financial.
Services industry, we also have to.
Think about the fact that the kind of economic situation, the situation of financial insecurity, has just expanded exponentially.
It's just much much worse.
It's much harder for people to be on stable footing in terms of how much money they have to survive.
Now.
We love tips, we love actionable advice, and I know you've spoken. Even on your website you have a button for people who want to ditch their big bank yeah and find someone, which I love. You know, I was all about that ditch your bank movement after the recession and for the financial crisis. You know, I'm a We're a huge fan of online banks, barn Ambition and Magnify Money.
So do you feel like things are you know there's banks online that are that are offering lo fi accounts now, and can you talk a bit about alternatives that are out there for people who may you know, find themselves in a tight spot. And may not have all the information about alternatives.
Sure, well, I think you know the kind of part of the problem. And this goes back to that second thing I said in terms of the reasons people are choosing not to use banks but to use check cashers instead is the issue of transparency. And so I think financial services have gotten a lot more complex since I was a kid, and it's very hard for people to
figure out where should I go. People often feel paralyzed, you know, I thought this bank was was good, this big bank, it's got a big name, and I had a bad experience.
But where do I go now?
So I think helping people compare products and services side by side, which you guys do a couple of other sites do as well, is really important. I think that there also are banks and credit unions that both serve people better than some of the large banks. It's not really just a large, small thing. But the problem is you have to do your research. But there are hassle
free accounts. Key Bank offers a great hassle free account if you're in one of the regions they serve sometimes for people who've been have the check systems problem and they've been booted out. There are some banks that have a second chance account where you can get a second get another account, even if you're on that blacklist. And you know, people who use credit unions on average pay lesson fees every year than people.
Who use banks.
Credit unions aren't nonprofit, they're cooperatives, so I think there are good alternatives. But yeah, the reason I put the button on my website this is how to leave your bank, and I'd love to add you guys to the list is because people need an easy one to figure these things out, and our situations are different, so there isn't really a one size fits all approach.
There are also some.
Really interesting innovations coming down the line from the fintech kind of financial technology segment that should make it easier and more cheap to bang. But absolutely people need to do some comparison shopping and there are people and sites out there that can help.
You do it well.
Lisa, thank you so much for coming on Brown Ambition. I really appreciate you sharing and congratulations on the book.
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you.
And we're back with questions how do you say questions in Spanish?
And that's why.
So we have a question from Let's call her Lovely.
Okay, Hey, Lovely does not sound like a stripper name at all.
So Lovely ask if question. I've been looking at my credit report since the joining the Liverature Challenge credit edition Woo Woo Shadow Dream Catcher, but I'm still confused about the closed, sold or charge off accounts on my report.
Can you help?
Certainly, we can, She said, I would like to know if I should make arrangements to pay them off or just wait until they fall off my credit report.
And she told us the dates.
So well, let's start by reminding people what is what does it mean when your account has been charged off or sold?
That means the original company that you owed. So let's just say you owed Sears and you bought a washing machine from Sears and it was you know, I don't know, you were making payments on it, right, and so at some point you lost your job, so you stopped making payments. So after everybody charges off or can they might have a different charge off schedule, but after either thirty sixty or ninety days, Sears says, you know what, Lovely's not
going to pay it. Yes, So they go to the federal government and basically say, you know, we're just marking this as a loss basically, and then they will sell it, typically to a third party or is the second party third party third Yeah, I'm like, wait, third party a third party company where this is basically a debt collector and now they own the debt.
And so that's when something is charged off or sold.
Yeah, it's just them saying. It's just them admitting this is never gonna be paid off, so we're writing it off. That doesn't mean that it's gonna fall off your credit report. In fact, it really reflects badly. Once you have a sold off account, it sucks. It's gonna drag your credit down and it'll stay on there for you know, upboards of seven years before it falls off.
But the good news is is that if a charge off happens and it's over two years old where it was actually charged off, then it's not making quite the debt on your credit as things that are newer. So our main advice is this, I'm not saying don't pay it, but I want you to focus on things on your credit report that have happened in the last two years
because that's what's really affecting your score. So if you have like let's just say you have eight hundred dollars and you have a charge off that happened last April, and you have a charge off that happened four years ago, and you have to decide where should I give the money? To give the money to the charge off that happened last April, because that's where you're going to see the effect of improving your credit score.
Yeah, that's one in particular. She goes into a bit of detail. She's basically had three accounts charged off. The earliest or the oldest one was charged off in twenty eleven, then twenty thirteen, then just this past April and twenty sixteen. So it seems like focusing on that most recent one that was charged off in April and the older ones, you know, when you get to them, you get to them and as a reminder though, and check what's your state and maybe even contact a consumer attorney to be sure.
But states have statute the limitations on debt on debt, and that just basically says after a certain number of years, it can be from six to ten sometimes depending on what state you live, on that debt collector or a lender cannot sue you in core for the unpaid debt. So generally, if it's reached past that point, you know, if you feel bad about it and you just got money laying around, you can make good on that debt.
You technically still owe it, but they can't. There's no legal recourse for them at that point, which is why it's even more important to focus on the ones that you can still be sued for exactly, that are still fresh on your credit report.
So like, for example, New Jersey, New York are statute of limitations on revolving debt is six years, okay, so then after so for example, so this twenty eleven one, this would be past the statute.
Well if she's.
From this area, yeah yeah, yeah.
Some states it goes up to twenty so yeah, and some states is three.
Yeah.
So there's a there's a good website I go to for like some I mean it's kind of like the Wikipedia of legal stuff, so you know, it's not the greatest, but no lo dot Com I think has a list of statutes per state. But great question. We get a lot of questions on charge offs.
Yeah that's a good question, and good congratulations on the Live with your Challenge Credit Edition.
I am in the right place.
I love when you dream catchers.
Just ride in and if you guys have questions again, you know we're find us Brand Ambition podcast dot com. You can just chat us right there, or you can always just email us at Brand Ambition Podcasts at gmail dot com or tweet us at the BA podcast on Twitter, Yes, Twitter, Twata And why are there? Leave us a review?
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