Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, we're back.
We're black, We're brown. It's Tiffany.
Guys, it's Mandy.
This is kind of rando, but I think I'm going to for you know, Valentine's Day is coming up, and I secretly think like Superman told me he didn't care if I changed my last name. But I think he does care because I think I caught him on the phone, like, you know, not ear hustling, but ellel the walls are thin, and I think that like he because he was like, nah, babe, keep your name, you know, like I don't, you know, I don't care, it doesn't matter.
But I think he does care.
So I think for Valentine's Day, I'm going to surprise and be like I'm applying for a name change.
Oh wow?
Is it?
Like is it a formal application like with Social Security?
Is that what you mean?
I don't even knows.
There's just some like I was like, it's funny because it made me think of it, because I mean, not just you're hustling him.
But there was this ad. They came up with my ig feed and a friend of mine used them. It's like this you.
Pay like one hundred and fifty Bucks and like they take care of all the whatever paperwork and whatever for you. So I think I'm just going to do that because honestly, I don't want to have to figure out all these things. So but I'm gonna I'm going to keep it'll be a hyphenated name and then because I'll still professionally be Tiffany Eliche because I feel like it's too late to kind of change that now, you know, but at least I'll be like personally Tiffany Leche his last name, you.
Know, Yeah, how romantic. I changed my name on Facebook and I.
Was like there you go, Oh did you did you take on his name? Like like.
What do you mean?
Like not really, I haven't contacted any government agencies, but I'll put it on some mail and sometimes I use a cell phone number and then put my name on it like Santos, you know, just so.
What do you want? You know? And it's not even that I didn't want to change my last name.
I'm just not gonna lie that. The thought of paperwork was like, oh God, did I have to get a new everything license?
Past world? Who has the time?
See, I don't think it's worth all that, But I think what matters more. Is like, so I think my husband does like appreciate it because during the house stuff, just to not confuse anybody working on the house, you know, I went with his last name for all of the you know, all the vendors and whatnot. But you know, when I was cutting those checks, that says my last name on it, and I think that's fine presenting as the last name is the thought.
I think that's exactly too. And then also too, you know, we welcome a kid. I don't want to be the only one without.
The last name up in the house.
Like, hey, you know one of these one of these round round pigs doesn't fit with the square holes.
So yeah, yeah, did you catch the Grammys this weekend? See my girl Licia Keys doing an amazing job.
I it was really good.
Honestly, I was like at a conference speaking, so I never do you have to watch TV in the hotels? I never do, but anyway I didn't, but I heard it was actually really good.
Of course I watched TV and hotels hotel rooms like. I never had cable for a long time, so whenever I was at a hotel, I was like, ooh, fixed a rupper, like I ever just watched HGTV for whatever, I.
Never do because you know what it is. I am one of those. I'm like the old lady that can't figure out the remote. You know, look like your mom and your aunt was so usually I'm like soap back.
She's like, oh my god, you as the press the green button, then the blue button, the up and down, the left and it right. I'm like, see, that's why I just call you because all these buttons it used.
To be on back in my day.
Well, the Grammys were really good. I mean they got I guess the big headline was that so many women performed and so many women also won awards. And last year, like someone high up in the Grammy's land had said that in response to not very many women being represented, was like, well they need to step up. So so it was nice to see so much girl go powa
and like Michelle, it was kind of confusing. At the top of the show, they had Alicia's hosting and I love her, but then she had like five famous women come out and tell them like basically say what music meant to them, and that included Lady Gaga. Makes sense, she was a musician, and it was Jennifer Lopez and then Alisha who I'm forgetting someone. Michelle Obama was like the surprise guest. People lost their minds.
But then Jada Pinkett.
Was there one I was like she what why? But I mean, like we alla, but it seems one of these things does not belong. But yeah, it was cool, it was cool, and yeah it was just a really it was a fun night. I feel like Alicia made the show. I don't know if I would have watched if it hadn't been Alicia as the as the as the host. But yeah, cool. So what conference for you at?
It's called the IF Conference. My new mentor.
Then I tell you about my mentor, the one who I think I mentioned her, the one who owns the jewelry company like she's got. Her name is Jessica, Jessica Hoenagger. She owns this jury company called New well it's not just jewelry, but a company called Noonday and oh and d a y. I met her at this other conference and we were talking and I just happened to mention.
You know.
She asked me what I was, what business I had, and I told her and she was telling me about her business and it's very similar in its I guess in its mission.
But her mission is I mean as far as like wanting to help people.
So her mission is that she goes around world and finds vulnerable populations of women and you know, and pays them to do whatever kind of like local artists and craft things and pays them well things that they do. And and then women here, it's kind of like almost like avon. Women here then can can sign up to
be an ambassador to Noonday and then sell it. It started because she she was doing mission work in Rwanda and and you know, we all rid of the Rwanda genocide not too long ago, and it left a lot of kids without parents, and so there was a little boy she wanted to adopt.
And then the recession hit.
That recession, I tell you blessing and a curse, and so the money that she had set aside was basically gobbled up during the recession and so she didn't know what to do because she really wanted to adopt this little boy. And so what happened was some of the people that she kind of connected with in Miwanda said well, what if we, you know, donate some like crafts and things to you and then you can sell it and you know, get the money to pay for the adoption.
So that's what she did. And then her friends were like, well, where'd you get this? I want to sell some stuff too. She's like, no, I'm just selling it, you know, just so I can you know, this is just a fundraiser to it.
So I can go through with the adoption.
But people just kept talking about because the stuff was really beautiful, and she thought, well, maybe this is gonna be a business. So she made it up to adopt
her son and she started a business. And as we were talking, I'm like, this is beautiful because her thing is she really wants to to eradicate moder and day slavery because so many it's largely women that she gets the crafts from, and so many of them, you know, are forced to work in brothels or sex trade or just dangerous situations, and they them being able to create
these crafts already like women. I bought this bracelet from a certain collection called the Storyline Collection, and all of the women who made those bracelets, they were from this brothel in South America, and already over ten of those women have been able to leave the Brahmafel and just do this full time. And so it's just dope to be able to wear something that's beautiful but also know
it's something beautiful. And then she told me that her business is the fastest growing direct to market jewelry business in the world and.
She's won all these awards.
After I came home and I googled her and they crossed over the twenty million dollar mark and an annual gross revenue, and I'm like, what, So, here's somebody who was doing good work, having good people, but making amazing money.
And so I was like, you're my new mentor, because that's.
What's called one of the business.
And we should have her on noon and oh and noonday.
She's just such a good person, you know, you know, I meet someone and you're like, she's just such a really kind and good person who really cares about the world.
But still such a boss.
I told her, like looking at her as like what I hope to be in like ten years, like this big boss that still has maintained like your integrity and like really wanting to help people and keeping that first. And so she asked me that the conference last minute couldn't find I guess somebody for like a finance panel until she asked me to come.
So I did. That's what I did last weekend.
Everyone there, like her sunshine just has spread everywhere. And so, I mean my sister Tracy, who is the ultimate skeptic, is like she is like so dope, and I'm like, I know, right, just like I don't know.
She radiates goodness from within and God, hope, you know, hopefully this is weird.
I mean I believe so because you know, just her energy from the inside. She just you know, just to see someone who is dedicated to helping make the world better but it's still running a super super successful business because you know, you worried that like at some point I start to grow, Am I going to have to sacrifice one for the other? And looking at Jessica and where she is, the answer is at least at the eight figure mark. No, you know, yeah, so, And like
I said, it was, it was. It was nice IF conference. It was very Christian need the IF conference, and I believe in God, So it was I'm not gonna lie. I know you're from set down South.
Where are we going with us? No?
No, no, no.
What I was gonna say is that because you know, in the Northeast.
I'm used to, like because I went to like a majority like white church, so I'm used to churches you know, with white folks it's a certain kind of way, and the churches with black folks it's a certain kind of way, you know.
And so it was very interesting because.
I don't know, i'd really experienced Christianity where it looked the same for black folks and white folks in the South, you know, like very like gregarious and you know. So I was like, it was an interesting experience to see, like it's almost like church in the South is Baptists like that kind of energy no matter what your racist, and I had not really you know, so that I.
Think that's I think it depends on where you go. Like I was definitely at white churches that were very like hoity toity and you know, very like prim and proper. But I think, yeah, Baptist church in the South, you could. I mean there are country women, like country white women who are I don't know if you ever saw It's like a good example is like you ever seen that black Jeopardy skit on SNL. I'm just like laughing thinking about it.
I had, You're gonna send you this one.
Keenan Thompson plays Alex Trebek's character, and anyway, they always have like really funny categories like oh no, she didn't for four hundred dollars And anyway, they had one time Tom Tom Hanks played like a country white dude, and you know, he showed up as one of the contestants with like three other three other black contestants and they're like, who's this white guy. He's not gonna get any of these answers right, and he got everything right.
Good.
But I'm telling you some country people, like when you get down to the Deep South, like country is country and white black country, and you know, that's that's a that's a storyline you don't usually ever see because it's always like the white you know, Southern people hate black Southern people. But sometimes it's like they are kin folks, and it's more like an economic it's it's more like a socioeconomic status, you know, connection than a racial one. So it's like they grow up in the same area
at the same you know, level of income. And then anyway, I'm getting all in the in the weeds here.
But but it was just very it was very interesting. I definitely was like, oh, oh, oh, we have a church church. Yeah, but it was interesting, and I say, everybody was super nice, and so I never even heard it's called the IF I IF conference.
Mandy.
It was like six thousand people in the audience and nearly a million people watching like over like streaming.
Isn't that crazy?
Wow?
So enough about me. We have an exciting guest.
Yes video, Mandy, you secured in super exciting guests and I can't wait to interview her.
Let's jump in, Yeah, let's jump in.
So let me tell you about our guests to we'll take a quick break and then we'll come back with our guests. But her name is Ada Harvey Wingfield. She's a professor of sociology at Washington University in Saint Louis.
And what caught me it's not that I knew her beforehand, but I came across this article I actually mentioned as my Brown Break a few weeks ago in the Harvard Business Review and did a really good job kind of delving into the ways that black workers, especially in like corporate America, are often failed and it's not by any wrongdoing on their part, but by failings from the organizations themselves, and I think at a time where you're seeing you know, Starbucks,
you know, and every other company rolling out diversity training when they have a really embarrassing public you know, incident happened, like a racial incident happened. I just feel like it was this article was kind of refreshing to kind of sit back and realize that there's you know, there's things that companies are doing wrong, but there's ways that they could do it a lot better to better support black workers.
And a lot of what she writes about in this article, which I'll include in the show notes, just really struck a chord for me. I invited doctor Wingfield to join the show and she'll talk about her article and some of the ways she's found employers can actually hinder the progress of black workers in America. And she also has a new book coming out this June, which we'll talk about as well.
Yes, come on into the let's.
Okay, save it. We'll take a quick break and come back and talk to doctor Ada Harvey Wingfield.
And we're back.
So, if you are like me and Mandy Well mines are like Mandy, have you ever worked in an environment as a woman, especially as a woman of color, and you felt a little uncomfortable, You felt like your organization was not really doing right by you, or just just wasn't enough of you.
Well, we had.
And amazing guesterday, Doctor Adia Harvey Wingfield. She wrote this article for the Harvard Business Review because We're fancy, you know, called how organizations are failing Black workers and how do we do better?
Welcome doctor Adea.
Thank you, Thank you for having me.
Yeah, thanks for letting me be a little creepy fan nerd and reach out to you out of the blue. Hi be on my.
Podcast No Problem. Great.
Well, one of the things I loved about the story itself was that I feel like this is the kind of thing that we all know to be true, but we don't talk about it that much, Which is, you know, there's a lot of things working because I well, a lot of the times you just try and grin and barrett and pretend like there's nothing keep stopping you from success. You know, that's the way in America is just to
pull yourself up by your bootstraps and succeed. But you know, you point out three different ways in this article that you have found in your research that you know employers are actually setting up black workers in some ways to fail. So I wondered if we can just kind of walk through some of the reasons that you outline in your in your article and then happy to talk more about the research that you've done into this issue.
Yeah, sure, I'm happy to.
So the article is a kind of summary or are pulling together of a lot of studies, Some are my own and some are ones that colleagues have done to make exactly the point that you just mentioned. There's definitely a disparity for black workers, particularly in professional jobs. But a lot of times these disparities are pronounced and made
worse by things that organizations are doing. A lot of times, I think this is unwitting, and I think that it's useful for organizations to know, and particularly managers to know about the research that's out there about ways that they can create changes to make them places that are more suitable and welcoming.
For black workers.
So one of the things that I talk about in the article is that organizations can change and be more welcoming for black workers if they stop relying on social networks for hiring. And this has become really common in
our current economy, again, particularly for professional jobs. Many managers rely on their networks, on people that they know to point them towards jobs, and on the face of it, that doesn't sound like a big deal, but the problem comes because most of our networks, particularly for white Americans, are pretty ex white.
So when managers are networks are relying on.
People that they know to point them towards jobs, especially professional ones, that can unwittingly end up reproducing racial segregation in the workplace.
So that's an issue.
A second thing that I point to is that organizations often have adopted a model where they don't focus as explicitly on racial and gender diversity anymore. And that might sound weird because we know now that many companies do talk about wanting to diversify, but the research shows when we dig into what that actually means, a lot of companies employ a really broad and.
General definition of diversity.
So that leaves them in a position where they can say that they're focusing on diversity, but the managers who are actually tasked with this focus on diversity very broadly defined, so it can include regional diversity, diversity of thought.
Color.
A good question color managers about this, and the thinking behind that is that if we have a lot of different viewpoints among a certain group, then we've got diversity of thought. So the problems with that are that diversity of thought may not be as diverse as you think. And that also doesn't take into consideration the way that systemic processes exclude racial minority men and women of all races.
Right. But this is how you end up with statements like one.
A few years ago where a vice president for I think it was Apple at the time made the remark that you can have twelve blond haired, blue eyed white men in a room and they'll still be diverse because they have different experiences that I'm.
Too, yeah, point that out, I mean, yeah.
Right, And so that's what I mean, that's what managers refer to when they talk about diversity of thought. That doesn't equip if they're approaching this diversity from that standpoint.
That doesn't give them.
The tools to think about strategies and programmatic management that they can do to address the ways that black people in particular often are marginalized and sidelined in organizations because if you're not actively trying to.
Address these things, they don't get solved. So that's the second issue.
The third issue that I mentioned in the article is that organizations often end up in situations where managers often implicitly but not always subtly, decide who they think best fits into certain organizational roles. And what happens for that is that when people are interested in applying for jobs or people people are interviewing for jobs, subtle biases make it seem as though black workers are suitable for lower status jobs but not really that acceptable for higher status,
high ranking positions. So this is where we hear a lot of people talk about culture or fit.
Right, there's something about this candidate. I just don't know if they fit. I can't put my finger on it, but they just don't seem quite right for this organization.
And those types of strategies again work to the disadvantage of black workers in organizations, again often for professional jobs, because these are the types of positions where subtly and implicitly there's a message that black professionals are an oxymoron and that black workers don't fit in these types of
high status jobs. So I wrote the piece to draw attention to these issues and to make the point that not only do they exist, there also are strategies for change there are things that research has shown that organizations can do to try not to focus in those ways and not to rely on these patterns that we know from research are disadvantageous to black workers.
Yeah, what are some of the positive ways employers can lift up and help black workers succeed, you know, once they're already in a position at a job.
Right, great question. So, generally speaking, research does point to some solutions. You mentioned affinity groups in particular, there's some research that suggests that affinity groups can be useful for helping underrepresented.
Workers feel a little bit.
More socially supported in these types of environments. That's inconsistent across occupations. So, for example, a colleague of mine has studied women working in the geosciences industry and has shown that for women in that particular field, affinity groups don't necessarily.
Have the same reward.
But other research shows that for black workers in particular, affinity groups can be really helpful in helping to feel more of a sense of support and solidarity, especially in environments that are sometimes unwelcoming. Interestingly, although we hear a lot about diversity and diversity training, research has shown that diversity trainings in particular, are not really as helpful as
we might think. And I have some colleagues who have shown that diversity trainings have not been shown to actually show any marked improvement in improving the numbers of underrepresented groups in high status positions and organizations.
And my own.
Research has actually shown that diversity trainings have some adverse consequences for black professionals. They can lead to emotional alienation, particularly in context where black workers feel as though their white colleagues are free to share their emotional responses, but that they, as black professionals, have to conceal or suppress their own responses to racist things that their colleagues might end up saying in those settings. So diversity trainings themselves, while still fairly.
Widespread, are not really that effective.
Research does show, however, that when organizations actually commit to establishing explicit measures and tasking someone with response stability for creating more racial diversity, then that actually is where we see improvement. So, in other words, if organizations have the resources and offer the support to a manager and make it clear to that manager that your job is contingent on getting this done, perhaps unsurprisingly.
People react Accordingly. People don't want to lose their jobs.
So when organizations give managers this institutional support, when they give them the resources, and when they make it clear that the focus has to be not on diversity of thought, not on diversity of region, not on diversity of opinion, but that they want to actually see changes in terms of racial and gender.
And ethnic diversity. That's when we actually do see the needle move.
When you're at a higher status in your organization and you're a person of color, you're like, you're more likely to have more influence versus someone who's in a lower ranking position who's trying to point out or maybe too afraid to point out, hey, we could be doing a better job recruiting or you know, supporting people.
Right.
That actually was one of the findings that came out of my book project. I don't know if we want to talk about that already, but I'm happy to if.
That's for the book. What's the book called.
It's called Flatlining, Race, Work and Healthcare in the New Economy. It's out this summer, right out this summer. It should be out this late June, early July, so coming out pretty soon.
But yeah, that was one of the.
Interesting findings that came out of my book that when we talk about how workers try to make changes in organizations, what I found from studying healthcare workers, doctors, nurses, physician assistants, and technicians is that how workers try to make changes depends on where they're situated in the organization, and that for doctors, because they had a lot of status, and because they had a lot of relatively speaking, a lot of power and an ability to make changes, they were
more likely to try to address the structural procedures that lead to black black workers being underrepresented.
In the medical profession.
That's not as easy for say, technicians, who don't occupy the same structural position and don't necessarily have the same ability to request and try to institute far reaching change. Now, one additional thing I'll say, though, is that when we talk about workers who are at different levels and the occupational strata, it's important to be mindful that just bringing in one person or even two people.
Usually is not really an effective solution.
There's a recent report about this that came out from mckensey and lean in where they refer to people who are that underrepresented as onlies, and what they show is that people who are onlies deal with a lot more harassment, they think about quitting a lot more. They feel a lot more alienated and isolated. This is a problem that some organizations still make this thinking that, well, we can hire one or we can hire two, and we've done
our job now. And like you just said, Mandy, the thinking then becomes, now that we've got one, we can tap them to do a lot of the diversity work, or we'll put them on this committee where they'll.
Just solve all of our problems.
But that's not really an effective strategy, and the research has shown that it's not effective because one person usually isn't equipped to make the sort of systemic change necessary for organizations to really be restructured to be more viable for all people.
If you are the only Sometimes it feels like you put internal if you put pressure on yourself to do things that aren't necessarily asked of you. But that stress that'll, that'll, that'll, you know, stress you out, Like I need to be helping. I am in a position where I should be helping and I need to do more, but it's not always it doesn't feel like you really can make an impact.
And I think that maybe a bit of you know why some people, if you're the only one in your job, think about leaving as you do feel kind of like powerless to change it. But you see the problem.
So doctor ly, I just find this your work and your research to be really interesting. So I have a unique, I guess perspective because I so I run a company, and I would say eighty five to ninety percent of the women that work with us or the people that work with us are women, and of those women, almost all of them, not even almost all of them, all of them are women of color. And so it created like an environment like no other. So I never worked in corporate America before I started my business.
I was a school.
Teacher, so I didn't it's hard for me to track the difference. But it's like so many of the women that come to me and work with me.
Had such traumatic experiences in corporate America.
I was just talking to my COEO and she was like, she's having a hard time sometimes adjusting too that she doesn't have to be afraid to admit that she doesn't know how to do something, or like afraid when you know she needs a little more time, or just like no one's taking credit for the work that she did, and it's just been such an adjustment and just so interesting to see like kind of like this trauma that these women are bringing with them and from some of
the corporate not everyone, but some of them, some of the corporate guess experiences that they've had, and to work in a company where you know that that's not the issue.
I mean, not that we don't have other issues, but you are surrounded by.
Women of color, and we help women of color, you know, and the women of color are in positions of power, and a woman of color owns the business, you know.
Absolutely, yeah, I mean, unfortunately that doesn't surprise me what you're saying. I wish that it did, but it's so consistent with what we know from from the research.
And another additional point.
That I would just add is that the challenges of being that only one and in the minority.
Not only are a problem for those.
Two are experiencing it, but they It sends a very particular message to others as well, and I think in a weird way, it reinforces this idea that people of color, black people in particular, don't belong right, because it takes me back to this idea of tokenism that people who.
Are the only one or the only one.
Of a particular underrepresented group become representative of that entire group, and usually adverse ways. They are in a position where if they make if they have a success, then the success is seen as unusual for someone of that group. If they make a mistake, the mistake is seen as an example of why organizations don't hire people who are
members of that group. So for the Black women that you're describing who are coming from corporate America, chances are, based on the numbers and the statistics that we know, they've probably been very underrepresented, and they've probably been experiencing
a great deal of this phenomenon of tokenism. They become seen as people who stand out, who are different, who don't blend in, who don't fit with the majority of the group, people whose mistakes are then used to justify why we don't hire black women for these types of jobs, and people whose successes then conversely don't become viewed as a reason why we should hire more Black women for these types of jobs, but become an example of unusually,
become an example of an unusual outcome rather than something that's representative and we know from virtually all the research out there that this just takes an a more toll.
It takes an emotional toll, it takes a social toll, it takes a psychological toll, it takes an economic toll, because these have consequences for how workers are able to advance, how they are paid with their wages are and for keeping other workers out of these positions where there could be collective power and number that could try to change these structures.
Yeah, can we talk a little bit about how it's it shouldn't all the onus shouldn't always be on black workers to fix problems at diversity. And like, one of the things that I've respected about some of the leaders I've worked with over the years is there's often, you know, white managers or white executives who will acknowledge it's not just a black people or a minority problem. It's a universal problem for all of us to fix as a team.
So even if you're not a person of color, you should be making diversity a priority when you're recruiting or you know, in the way that you're writing. You know, for me, it's all about in journalism, it's often even journalists are guilty of writing to a specific audience or assuming things about black people in their story, and it's up to you know, editors, even if they're not black or a person of color, to call out those types
of things. And yeah, it's I and you know the way that you're kind of seeing some managers step up and take on their responsibility. That's like the only way I feel like there can be change unless, you know, unless organizations are willing to just you know, immediately even out the like level of the playing field and hire a bunch of people of color. It's got to be that way, Like people who aren't minorities have to stand up.
No, absolutely, I mean, this is one of the points that I make.
In my book.
The focus of the book is on how economic changes are having an impact on black professionals, and like I said, I focus specifically on workers in the healthcare industry. And one of the things that I find is that these economic changes are having an impact on the way these workers encounter racism. But that also is structured again by where they fall in the organizational hierarchy.
But these workers are also trying to change.
The organizational structures that they inhabit different ways that also depend on the jobs that they have.
But the point that I really try to.
Drive home and the conclusion, is that a big part of the problem is that these workers are doing so much labor without any real organizational support, and in a lot of cases they have the perspective and the feeling, sometimes explicitly sometimes implicitly that organizations are actually relying on
them to do this work without any support. In other words, they know that the senses that managers and organizations know that for black workers, it's very important to try to create more equitability, it's important to try to do this diversity work, so the senses that companies and managers just let them do it, but that this doesn't also overlap with or lead them to getting any sort of institutional support for.
The work that they're doing. And to me, that's the biggest problem.
It's not necessarily an issue that you have black workers who are doing a lot of labor to try to change companies and to make them more relatable and more accessible. But you can't ask people to do this work on top of the things that are actually part of their real job descriptions and not compensate them for it, or not recognize that they're doing it, or worst case scenario, penalize them for the fact that they're doing all of this extra work that takes.
Away from the jobs that they were hired to.
Do, and then end up firing them or not promoting them because they've been doing all of this extra labor.
But I think that's the situation.
That we're in right now with so many organizations, that there's just the expectation that organizations want to meet their bottom line, they want to make their money, they want to say that diversity is important, so they bring in one or two black people in certain jobs.
But then the implicit expectation becomes.
Now that you're here, solve our problems, fix things up, make it better, and we'll just allow you to do that, and we'll allow that to become.
An additional part of your work. But what we're not going to.
Do is take these responsibilities on ourselves. What we're not going to do is tie your compensation to the fact that you're doing this extra work. What we're not going
to do is offer you any additional recognition. I don't know if either of you watch Insecure, but it kind of reminds me of the scene at the end of I think season two when Molly the lawyer, the character who's a lawyer, basically was trying to angle for more money, and her job offered her the certificate of appreciation, told her they will put it on the web page.
Right, what is that?
That's crazy, that's that's not a pay raise, that's empty recognition. And I think that was a key part of what they were.
Trying to communicate in that episode, that this is all too often what happens to black workers in these organizational settings. And it's a little bit different because Molly wasn't necessarily going out of her way, or they didn't show Molly necessarily going out of her way to do a whole bunch of work to try to change the organization. But they certainly had that episode in the first season when they wanted her to talk to the other younger black woman attorney and help her to fit in.
So again.
One so again, you're still having her do this extra work, you're not compensating her for it, and you're offering her a certificate that goes on the website, which is not what she requested and does not add up to equal pay. It's a fictional show, I get that, but I felt that that was very reflective of a lot of black people, right exactly exactly.
It was very reflective of what a lot of.
Black women encounter in these types of corporate settings because organizations simply in many cases are not making the moves to spread this work around more broadly and more widely. And I think that goes to the point that Tiffany, I think you were just making and I think Mandy
you were saying this too. If this doesn't become something that becomes universally shared and widely seen as the organization's job, it falls to black workers in ways that end up maintaining inequality because they're still doing more work and they're not getting compensated for that work.
Yeah.
One of the things you talk about too, And you know, something that I found is like, sometimes when you're the only one when things are happening that impact your community, like the past brutal few years in terms of just unarmed people of color being killed by police officers, for example,
or everything happening in the White House. You know, right now, it's nice to turn to someone that it works because we spend so much time at our office, you know, for those of us in the ninety five world with your colleagues, and it's nice to turn around and feel like someone understands that there's things happening in the bigger world that could impact you during your work day. And what have you found in terms of like workplaces that are going out of their way to open up a
safe space. I hate to use that, like really cliche term, but in safe space for colleagues to just like talk about what's happening in the world that could be impacting them if it has nothing to do with work, but could be impacting them because of their race, or their ethnicity or their creed.
Sure. Sure.
One of the most interesting examples that I think of this, that I think is happening right now is with Price Waterhouse Cooper. I believe they are still doing this initiative that's called the Color Brave, which I believe is supposed to be a contrast to being color blind. And I know that this got started by the CEO after a
spate of highly publicized police shootings of black men. I believe this would have been maybe twenty fifteen or so, but it was the year that Alton Sterling was killed and then within twenty four hours Filando Castile was killed. Both were killed by police.
Neither of them. Well, I believe in Alton Sterlin's case, he was not armed.
In Fialando Castile's case, as we know, he was a registered licensed gun owner who was still shot by police
despite not breaking any laws. So I believe my understanding was that the CEO of Price Waterhouse Cooper came to this recognition similarly to what you just described, that you can't in this day and age, have a diverse workforce but act as though that diversity doesn't have implications for how workers are dealing with and interacting with each other and coping with things that are happening in their lives.
And we see some recognition of this.
I think when we talk about the ways that companies need to be more attuned to work family policy and work life balance to use another kind of cliche phrase, right, But when organizations talk about this in most cases, I think they're referring to gendered issues that we want to be mindful of how workers have families, and to think about how we can institute flexible work hours and institute policies that allow people to balance their life outside of
home with their life at home. They're excuse me, their life outside of work with their life at work. I think that it's necessary if we're going to really equip our workforces for the twenty first century, which is going to be a lot more multiracial, a lot more demographically diverse, we've got to.
Do the same thing when it comes to race.
We have to acknowledge that we live in a racially stratified society that has meaning and that has consequences for black workers, and that we can't pretend that work life balance means that for black workers, being black somehow has no meaning or significance, or that that meaning or significance just drops away when you enter the office.
That's not true. We know that's not true. That doesn't even.
Make any sense to think that way, right, So, if organizations are really going to be more diverse in a way that meets the needs of their employees, things like this Color Brave initiative to me sound really intriguing and interesting because they do take into consideration the whole person, and they take into consideration the whole person in ways that acknowledges that if we're talking about black workers, part of that whole person means people who are coping with
the consequences of ongoing racial inequality and that that's going to have an impact on them both at work and outside of work.
Well, doctor Wingfield, thank you so much for joining bran Ambition. You guys can check out her book coming out this June twenty nineteen called Flatlining Race, Work, and Healthcare in the New Economy.
That's right, Thank you so much.
Well, thank you. That was an awesome, awesome interview. But now it's time for booster to break for all my family. Will you boost? Will you break? What will you do? Mane?
Oh my god?
That was so good and I didn't even plan it freestyling.
Yeah, Honestly, I don't know where these gifts come from. So I just be a jingle writer.
God just us with your presence.
No, So are you going to boost? Are you going to break?
I want to do a boost. I want to do a boost because I can't wait for twenty twenty and the Democratic race is already just like the most girl power race in history. I think we have a record number of women putting their hat in the ring for president, which is really really awesome. So what you know, no matter who, probably what party you know you're affiliated with or whatever, I think is still really dope to see the impact of this feminine wave. You know, post Trump,
post Trump America is female America. So I'm just I'm excited the odds are in our favor to have a woman president.
Oh we shall see. But yeah, so that is a really good boost. My boost is a little less serious.
Actually, I want to boost in Divisil line.
They need to sponsor our show. So, Mandy, you saw me when we went to go take for Yahoo Finance, and you didn't even notice that I had my visil line in, right.
Yeah, I was actually shocked because I have noticed it in people before, especially people who accidentally eat with them in and then you really notice.
But yeah, I could not tell. They look really good.
Yeah, and I'm not gonna tell.
I guess they opened up with like, well, they gave me nine They call them like trades or whatever.
So that's just the set of the uppers and lower.
So I had nine weeks because every week you have to switch out the old ones to put in the new ones.
So I'm at the end.
The one I'm wearing now is my last one. I have to go this week to get my next set. But honestly, I'm seeing such a difference I because I have to have them for a year and a half, so I just assumed it was going to be really slow progress. But it looks like it's I'm not gonna lie like, I'm like.
Wow, this has only been nine weeks.
I can only imagine at the end of the year and a half there's been a tremendous change. And so I mean everyone from my sister so my husband's like, babe, Like I could really see a difference. So I have to say I was a little on the fence about a divisil line because I'm like, is it gonna be weird? Is it going to feel weird? Am I going to lose my you know, my trades. I'm pretty careful with them that I haven't thus far. Are they gonna be uncomfortable?
And the first couple of days it's weird, but then you get used to them. But I have to say I like them because I had braces as a kid, which we're not all that comfortable, and I find this to be like a really light lift. And so yeah, I feel like in Biline, if you're listening, you should sponsor the podcast because.
How else does it cost?
Oh?
Well, no, because I mean, because it's considered cosmetic, even though Superman has really great insurance.
They're like, girl, you tried it, you want to have straight sea.
So these were about so I think it was about forty eight hundred, but I got like some extra No, no, it was no, I think it was fifty two hundred, but but I opted to have appointments they call them. I forget that you can choose to have your appointments during low traffic times, like which is like after a certain time in the morning or before a certain time in the evening. And if you do that, they like they took money off. And then I also chose to
pay in full. So I think it was supposed to be fifty two hundred, but I ended up paying like, I want to say, forty eight hundred with them with the discounts that I that I used, and so yeah, so it wasn't And when I asked my other friends who you know, also had I have a bunch of friends who had in visiline, and they were like, yeah, that it was about the five thousand dollars range for them. So I feel like I'm writing in alignment with what
everybody else kind of paid. But to me, it's worth it because you figure for a year and a half five thousand dollars, divide to.
Buy what is that twelve eighteen months?
I feel like I can justify any purchase, don't. Yeah, if you just take that and you think about this and then divide that by three, then really you're saving money for really.
Actually used to be paying them.
I am.
Yeah, I really like that.
Yeah, my little brown boosts even though it's not.
Brown, but it is a boost.
My guilty pleasure is I still buy laser hair removal groupons like all the time, because once you do laser Haro Movis, You're like, I'm never gonna not I'm just like, I'm just like not gonna shave anymore.
It sucks.
And what's funny is like on Groupon, you know, you buy a six pack of laser hair removal and it's only for new customers. So I've literally thank god I live in New York because there is a like a skin care spa on every street corner. So I've just been bopping around the city. I think I've been to at least different, like eight different places over the years, and I just do it once a year and it's like one hundred bucks. And that's my little you know,
my little beauty, my little beauty splurge. So if you guys want to, I mean, I don't feel like you should ever pay full price. That's the one thing groupon is still relevant for for me is like the healthy, like the beauty stuff, spa stuff.
But yes, yes you should never pay I mean spot. You can find so many awesome spots on goupon. So for a laser hair moval is it for like the year? Does it last that long?
It depends on where you're getting it. So some of my hair, I mean, I won't go into too detail, but if it's hormone, I mean, we're all friends here, we're all women here, right, so some of your hair growth, it's hormonal and she and your hormones do whatever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want. So if it's hormonal, it's tougher. You have to kind of do maintenance so like once every other year. Everyone's different, so
there's not like one perfect way. But if it was something you know, not really usually linked to hormones, like leg hair or like underarm hair, then you could probably do that, you know, once and be okay. But everybody's body is different. But because of how cheap group on makes it, like I get treat I get like a six pack for a hundred bucks or you know, I even got a year supply for like two hundred bucks
one time. And because it's so cheap, I don't mind, you know, paying for it again and again if I have to every once in a while. Before that, it was like, you know, you could spend hundreds of dollars for one session, but it's way more cheap.
Yep, I have to say, you know, I have to. You know, my my African I don't know.
You know, I went to college with that.
I don't go anywhere, right, It's not that I don't go any here, but definitely not you know, nothing to write home about.
I mean, that's the European side of me. I guess I'll blame it on that line of hairy woman and my family. Shout out to group On.
I love that.
Tiffany Hattish is there spokesperson.
Also, yes, have you ever if you have not got a chance brown a bit your listeners, google Tiffany Hattish group on story.
I think it's on. I think it was Jimmy Kimmel. No, no, who's the other guy. Yeah, Jimmy Fallon. You have to listen.
It is so good when she tells her group On and Jada Pinkett story, you have to like.
It's just such a that's how she got the.
To pay her.
That was like free app free advertised, such a good story and like it'll have you laughing.
And so you haven't listened to it.
Ye should definitely And also Black Jeopardy and SNL. I'm gonna send you. It's so funny.
Yeah, week I want to get.
Anyway. Great, Well that's our show.
Well now what's kind of well are you goodad one?
All right, bye guys, bye, have a good week.