Episode 31: The Memory Hole

Listeners are advised that this podcast series brow contains course language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. When you are standing on Sandstone Crescent and facing south, the house in which deb and Murray have lived for almost forty years is to the left of John and Bromwan's old home. To the right of what Bromin called John's Castle is

And you say, ma'am that at the time you had the conversation with Bromwin about the locks and the keys to her house, that she was very upset and she was crying, and she said that John had threatened to take the children from her. The same as he had done to his first wife and taken Jody from her. Was there any other conversation that you can recall that Bronwyn said to you at this time.

Yes.

She also said that she didn't have any access to money, that John had closed to credit card and she didn't have any money well. She also said that Crystal wasn't his child, that she had her before she married John.

Heather told the inquest that after Bromin's disappearance, it was simply said that the mother of two went missing.

And I don't have any idea because I really knew nothing of their private life, and as far as I knew, they seemed to get on all right. Whenever we were in their company. We never found them quarreling or anything.

Lloyd Hargrave could no longer recall Bromwin having disclosed any fears about losing her children to John, although that detail was in Lloyd's statement of four years earlier. Heather and Lloyd have since died.

And so in your statement you say that about twelve or eighteen months prior to September nineteen ninety eight, you spoke with Jonathan Winfield and inquired from him if he had heard any information regarding Bronwyn, and Sir you say that he said something to the effect that he believed that Bronwyn had been cited in Brisbane, but that that was all the details that you were able to obtain from him. Have you heard any other theories as to what may have happened to Bronwyn?

I did hear from someone, and I'm not certain who it was, that investigations had taken place as far afield as New Zealand and Brisbane. That's about as far as I knew.

John's lawyer had just a couple of questions for Lloyd Hargrave. Craig Leggett asked whether Lloyd saw any signs of a scuffle or a disturbance when he went into the house with Murray Nolan several days later.

No.

At the time we entered the house, I have to admit I wasn't sure why I was going in other than to accompany Murray because naturally he didn't want to go in there unaccompanied. I was solely looking for any signs of the presence of Brone.

It was a big day for Bromwin and John's neighbors. After deb Hall and then the hard Graves were finished, Deb's partner, Murray Nolan, went forward. At an early stage of the questioning by Matt Fordham, we were reminded about Murray's back injury and his hospitalization. He had arrived home from the hospital about two pm on Saturday May fifteen.

Were you taking any medication for the pain?

I had a prescription for panadine fort at the time. I wasn't too keen to take the panadine fort because I just I don't like taking to me of those drugs, and I tried to handle my pain. I tried to build a pain threshold up from my injury.

And so when you take panadine forought, does it affect your sense of what's happening around you.

I still remain coherent. I can probably have a conversation, but probably after twenty minutes, I just tend to go to sleep. That's why I use it for my injury, maybe so I could just go to sleep.

Has there been any time when you've had delusions after taking panadine for it? No, sir, had you ever seen before sixteen May ninety three, had you ever seen that car, that white Falcon being rolled down the driveway without lights on or without its engine on before, Not that.

I've seen it roll down, but it did happen occasionally. Well, John used to go away. He was going up and down from Sydney to his dad's place in Nursa, and so he was pretty curtiss in that way that he used to leave his lights off and roll out the driveway.

And what times of the day or night would that normally happen.

John Norman left probably one or two in the morning on the occasions he used to go away.

Was that the first time that you'd ever heard that car bottom out on the driveway?

Occasionally it did bottom out on that roadway, but not as heavy as it did that day, But they actually built the road up twenty five millimeters at the time.

You're aware that the car remained in the family until seen ninety seven. Have you since heard that car bottom out on the driveway to that extent before?

No.

Murray took issue with the suggestion that it was the car bottoming out a stickler for the detail. He added, I think it was either the towball or the exhaust pipe because it actually dug a groove in the road.

He didn't see any doors opening or closing or anything like that. No, and then you described the engines starting and the lights coming on and the car driving off. Is that correct?

That's right?

Did it appear to you as though the car had been stopped right outside the vacant corner block.

It had gone down the bottom of Sandstone Crescent, slowly turned to the left, continue on for probably eight or ten meters, and then stopped.

Matt Fordham prompted Murray about the phone call that he had received from John Winfield, who was in Sydney. The police officer referenced Murray's nineteen ninety eight statement to police and John ringing his neighbor and friend to ask him to go to the house and break in. Matt Fordham asked Murray whether John had volunteered anything about where bromwin may have gone or what may have happened to her.

That phone call was quite short. John basically said Murray, I want you to break into the house and have a look around. I'll bring you back in fifteen minutes. There was no mention of Bromman in the first phone call. Maybe the second phone call, yes, I think he said, was Bromman in the house. In the second phone call, he asked me to hang the phone back up on the hook.

Murray next saw John Winfield on his return from Sydney with the two girls in late May. Matt Fordham questioned whether on that occasion John had described any possible theories of what might have happened to Brommin. No, he did not.

We basically didn't discuss Bromman at all.

John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, started with scrutiny of Murray's observations. On the night of May sixth, the Ford Falcon reversing from the driveway lights an engine off it's towball beneath the boots, scraping the road as the metal bottomed out on the bitumen of Sandstone Crescent, and then rolling silently

Do you think because it wasn't a one off, that is maybe the reason why he didn't sort of rush off to the police and say, look, here's something that's the one off.

The reason I didn't rush off to the police, which is probably a bit of a mystery to you, is John is a friend of mine. He was our neighbor. He was my neighbor. I wasn't that keen to get involved in the inquiry. I thought, if I stay out of this. In hindsight, it was the wrong thing to do, but I thought, I'll stay out of this and let it all work around me and then see what happens

So he spoke to Detective Discan on a number of occasions, didn't.

You Once Sergeant Discan or Detective Discan and Detective Tenby come around to my place a few weeks later, had a conversation with me and asked me a number of questions.

About how long did that take?

Do you think fifteen minutes?

And that was a period when you wanted to still keep out of it.

Yes. In Murray's nineteen ninety eight statement to police, he had mentioned that he possibly heard Romman's voice on the Sunday morning when she was talking to Deb, Murray used the word vaguely. Here's the context from that statement. He had said, a vague remember Bromwin coming to our home. John's lawyer knew that Murray was recovering at home, having been in hospital after that painful back injury, the compression

When crushed it like a can.

Murray was in agony after his time in hospital, and when he got home he said it was the most pain he had felt in his life. As you heard earlier, he was using the painkiller panadeine fort but only sparingly. It was a gift, a free kick for a lawyer

It wasn't because of the effect of anything that you'd been taking by way of panadin fought or anything in the morning of the sixteenth.

I really can't remember what drugs I took on the morning of the sixteenth.

John's lawyer asked Murray what time he would have gone to sleep on the Sunday night, May sixteen.

From my recollection, I'd probably say about eleven thirty.

Craig Leggett wanted to know whether Murray took a panadine at all that day.

I haven't got a recollection of taking one, and I more than likely wouldn't have taken one.

Now, the use of marijuana recreationally, what can you tell His Worship about the extent of your involvement, if any, with marijuana recreationally.

Right.

I am a light yeuser of marijuana and have been for twenty five years since I was fifteen. I'm forty now, forty one now forty two now, and I've grown marijuana in my backyard, harvested that marijuana, dried that marijuana out, and smoke that marijuana. Julie, I'll probably smoke marijuana once a year now, back ten years ago, I was probably taken it once every three months. I'd grow one plant a year and that plant would last me for a year.

So back in nineteen ninety three, smoking about once every three months. And was there any taking of the marijuana to reduce pain associated with any other injuries work or sport injuries at any stage of your life?

Not at all.

No.

I use it as a party drug, social drug.

Did you find that at any stage when you were using marijuana daily that it had any discernible effect.

On your memory? No, not really, No, there were.

No experiences in the nature of hallucinatory type of experiences or anything like that, not at all.

Well, I think by the time ninety three came around, I don't think I was smoking marijuana at all. I didn't really take records on my marijuana use or what I grew, or you ever had some or I didn't. I had no plants in nineteen ninety three, but maybe I might have.

I don't think so, can't remember one way or the other.

There was a bank robbery in Balna at the Commonwealth Bank, and they had helicopters flying over and things like that, and I thought, this is a bit sus so I pulled my plants up and never replanted them. It's been a gradual decrease over twenty five years.

Twenty five years of consistent use.

You wouldn't even say it was consistent, very light use, I'd call it.

Craig Leggett had one final question, which he started with the words to be fair to mister Winfield. He asked Murray again whether it was his evidence that John had left the house that night with the car's engine and lights off. Definitely, and with that Murray's evidence was completed. While recording his evidence from the courtroom transcript for this episode, he reflected on the focus on his use of cannabis.

I was just on the truth and that was the only thing they had. He went down that path and he just tried to discredit me. At the time, he only had one local newspaper, Northern Star, and was plastered over that.

Murray and deb are even now still a bit sensitive about the line of questioning. But John's lawyer would not have been doing his job properly if he had not at least tried to link Murray's smoking of the green leafy material to the reliability of Murray's recollections after all, Craig Leggett was literally fighting for the rest of John's life. He is deb reflecting on it.

Well, at the time, I thought, okay, he's trying to discredit us. That was his game plan. We had Veggie ardens like we do now, and in the back corner had one plant and John Murray would talk over the fence and so John would see it. And this is where John has picked this up. Browen was my good friend. She knew we had the plan. You know, we'd laugh about it and then over the years you grow out of that because you have children, you move on.

It's not relevant. We're responsible adults.

Murray mentioned that as the inquest was unfolding day by day in Lismore, he maintained a friendly rapport with John.

Sometimes in the breaks we sat down with one another and spoke to one another.

Matt Fordham explained the lineup going into the witness box. The police officer told the Deputy State coroner would be Denise Barnard, Becky McGuire, John's daughter, Jody Bromwin's daughter Crystal. But before day three was over, those in the Lismore courtroom would watch a video and then it would be entered as a formal exhibit.

There is a videotape, your Worship, which the Officer in charges recently obtained from another witness. The video apparently describes the missing person and John Winfield and the two children when the house was being constructed in the late eighties, and I think it runs for about twenty minutes. It might allow your Worship to get a better sense of the physical nature of Missus Winfield and give you some

Craig Legott had no objection, which meant John was agreeable to the family video being seen by those in the courtroom.

Okay, can you give us a bit of commentary as too. I think it will be fairly evident as to who the persons are, but just in case there are other people in the video.

She's got a green dress on.

That's bronwin Everyone in court stared ahead at the footage of Bromwan with her daughters. She was willowy, smiling and fussing over the two girls. Jodie was in there too. Megan Reid recalled that it was a poignant and powerful interlude.

I think it was one of the neighbors, and it was of a birthday party, and it shows bronwin playing with the kids and how good she was with them.

You sid so heartbreaking, you worshiped.

The final matter is this I raised yesterday the potential importance of Detective Sergeant Discan to your task. I'm instructed detective Sergeant Discan told John Winfield that Murray Nolan had told not to beat around the bush. Mister Winfield instructs me that Detective Sergeant Discin told him that Murray Nolan had reported seen the car that's the Winfield car moving

What this is a purported conversation that Sergeant Discan had with mister Winfield.

Craig Leggett acknowledged that it was, as he put it, second hand hearsay, but he added that if Graham Diskin had any note of such a conversation, it might be helpful in explaining the evidence.

Well, I don't know what the position is with Sergeant Discin. The sergeant might be able to enlighten the court. We've had some discussions about it this morning.

That was the cue for Matt Fordham to explain Detective Discan's position in so far as being a potential witness was concerned.

Sadly, Sir, it appears that it's fairly unlikely that Sergeant Discan will be making himself available to your Worship to assist you, and I do apologize for that. The position is said that he's been on sick leave. It appears to the officer in charge that Sergeant Discan may not be returning to work. He's informed the officer in charge that he is unable to attend a police station and

The Coroner's Court will adopt the same attitude as any court, and that is irrespective of whether Sergeant Discin is a serving police officer as of now or perhaps the civilian sometime in the future. He is still a witness that's compellable to come to court. And give evidence if required.

As the court room emptied at the end of the third day of the inquest, Karl Milavanovitch and the police officer assisting the fact finding inquiry, Matt Fordham made plans

You say in your statement, ma'am, that Bronwin would often tell you that John appeared to be nice when he was in a group of people, but she would always say, everyone thinks that John is a real cool, surfy but he's not what he seems. Ma'am. You say in your statement also that Bronwin told you that on one occasion, John had pinned her up against a wall and that she was really scared that he was going to hurt her. You cannot remember exactly what it was over, but it

It was quite a while.

Denise confirmed that she did not see injuries on Bromwin's body. Bromwyn had not disclosed to Denise any other incidence of violence, but Bromwin had described her determination to separate from John and start a new life for her and her daughters, Crystal and Lauren.

Did she ever discuss with you her plans with respect to the children.

Well, the children would have been with Braun. She wouldn't have gone without the children.

Did she ever tell you that that was the case. Well, you just knew.

If you knew Bronwyn, you knew that the children were her priority. They were always with her.

Matt Fordham asked about the clairvoyant and tarot card reader Pendragon and Jacko. Denise had little to add apart from flatly rejecting the idea that Bromwin could have gone away with one of them. Denise confirmed that she had gone with deb Haul to the property Bromwin had been renting in Byron Street, and it was Denise's husband, Lez who had obtained the ladder they used to get inside the place. They're not Jehovah's witnesses.

Did you see much in the way of furniture or possessions there?

There wasn't a lot. There were some of those fluffy toys, a few bits of clothing. The furniture as it was. I'd actually lent Broun a print of mine to put into the unit to make it look nice, and I noticed that it was still there.

And ma'am, since the disappearance of Bronwin, have you ever spoken with John Winfield about her appearance?

We had many conversations soon after a lot. Because my statement was actually never taken until five years after the fact. I can't remember a lot of the conversations, but they were normal conversations about where he thought she just walked off and left him. I was of another belief that she wouldn't have done it.

You say that he indicated she simply walked off and left him. Did he indicate to you at any stage, where she may have gone or who she may have gone with.

No Denise told the inquest that after Bromwin disappeared, her girls, Crystal and Lawrence stopped going to playgroup. They were rarely seen at other school functions. Finally, Denise agreed that John had told her of Bromwin's purported return to the house and her purported leaving of the medicare check. Matt Fordham had nothing further, and John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, opted to keep his powder dry.

I have no questions for missus Barnard, thank you.

Near the start of this podcast investigation, in early twenty twenty four, when I met Denise for the first time at the house that Les built in Lennox Head, Bromlin's good friend remembered something It had thrown her immediately after her evidence that day in Lismore.

I got down off the witness box that day and when we were leaving, John gave me the wink. I still remember that as clear as day.

So I didn't know that what happened when.

You're talking in the witness box is watching it the whole time, and when we left he me the wink. Why I don't know, but I can just remember it still vividly.

Did you take it as him approving of your evidence?

I took it as him being like, well done, they're not going to get me.

Did you have expectations then that there would be some rest Well, we all.

Thought there would be when there was the inquest.

I call Rebecca maguire, ma'am. In your statement, you described that you were friends with Jody Winfield alias Mayne since you were about thirteen years of age. Is that correct, yep, that's correct. You described that you've been to Jody's house in Sandstone Crescent on a number of occasions before Bronwin went missing. Is that correct?

Yep.

And you described that there were some arguments that you'd witnessed inside the house between John and Bronwin. Is that correct?

Yeah, not real major ones.

Did you ever see any violence between them?

No.

Although she was one of the last people to see Bromwin alive, Becky McGuire was not expected to be a controversial witness. Her written statement in nineteen ninety eight had included an observation that Bromwin was, as Becky put it, babbling about something. The front door of the home at Sandstone Crescent, on the night John Winfield arrived there Sunday evening.

Do you remember what your understanding was as to the problem that he was trying to overcome.

He more or less just wanted to pick up his stuff.

He'd just come back from Sydney and he was staying in a motel downtown of Lennox and he just didn't want to upset the kids and didn't want any hussles. He just wanted to get it and go back to the motel.

This was a very surprising disclosure. Becky Maguire had not said anything about a motel in her written statement four years earlier. Nowhere in the brief of evidence was there any reference to John staying in a nearby motel.

Do you remember which motel he said he was staying at.

Yes, it's the one opposite the food store in Lenox Head. It might have been called Gradwell's Flats at that stage.

Rebecca Maguire then recalled that John Winfield was possibly dropped off there on the way back from Sandstone c It was confusing and unexpected evidence.

Do you remember being told why John Winfield wanted you at the house.

He just basically he just didn't want to freak the kids. He didn't want any domestics. He just wanted to go there and get it.

Matt Fordham reiterated what she had previously said, including that she and John went to the house and walked to the front door while John Watson did a U turn and drove off. Becky could not remember those details as she sat at the inquest in Lismore on the fourth day of proceedings.

With that statement, a lot of it was just confusion because I was pretty young when it all happened, so some of it is correct, some of it is confused with just events that have happened in my life that might have just got mixed up. From what I can remember, he just knocked on the door, and ron Wood ouncewid and the two girls were standing beside her.

Did it strike you with strange that he had to knock on the front door of his own house.

No, My family has been through too, so No, I've seen stuff, and not in that family, but just life in general. I was pretty much standing right near them. They weren't yelling or anything. They were talking and I'm pretty sure he just said he was staying down at the motel. We weren't there for long at all, just got his stuff and pretty much left.

She recalled that Lauren was crying John gave her a cuddle. She also remembered the suitcases which John picked up and put into the car, but in the inquest, Becky's version was that the suitcases went into John Watson's vehicle, not the wind Field Ford Falcon.

He put them in the back of John's fall drive thing, and John Watson drove us back.

I thought they were just closed that he was picking up.

And what was John's demeanor at the time.

More or less just go back to the motel and get some rest, because he'd just gotten back into town that day.

Did he ever indicate to you any intention at that point for him to return to Sydney that evening.

No, he didn't say anything.

And ma'am, after you left the house yourself and John Winfield got back into John Watson's truck, is that correct?

Yep.

We dropped him off in front of the motel.

Yep.

The motel is on that side.

And he crossed the road and went straight in and said thanks very much, sorry about it all, and that was it.

In the nine years since that night, Becky said she had not talked to John or to her best friend Jody about Brommin's disappearance, And that was another disclosure which must have surprised those watching the evidence unfold. The unexplained disappearance of Jody's stepmother, John's wife, a police investigation, years of speculation in the community, but according to Becky, it had never come up in her conversations with one of her best friends.

Yeah, I've never really brought the topic up. If she wanted to talk to me about it, she could have, but I didn't bring it up.

No, did she ever indicate to you any theory as to how she may have left the house or disappeared or anything like that.

No, I don't think we discussed it at all.

When it was Craig Leggott's turn, he read aloud from her nineteen ninety eight statement, so fundamentally different from what she had been describing in her sworn evidence in the courtroom.

That's consistent with how John Watson remembered the events, but it seems to be a little bit different from how you're remembering them now.

Yeah, I've sort of I've had It's been a long time for me. I was sixteen seven months pregnant, so but as I said in my statement, I said, I couldn't be sure how much of it is correct.

John's lawyer asked whether her evidence about the motel was possibly incorrect too.

Yeah, I'm not real clear on the whole night.

I've just basically tried to put into perspective and as I said, like basically given a slight picture, whether it's one hundred percent, I couldn't say.

Glenn Taylor was recalled to the witness stand for a few formalities. Some document which were not in the original brief of evidence needed to be formally recognized as exhibits.

They were in a box of old material that Detective Sergeant disk In had gathered. I believe they relate to a running sheet he put in where he indicated that he attended the home of bromwin Winfield and obtained various letters. It doesn't actually specify what the letters contained in the running sheets were.

So it was a little bit difficult.

I could only go by what the running sheet stays, and it's not really clear. It just says attended saidstand cresent and took possession of a number of private letters.

I believe that they were in the house matt Fordham put it to the detective that the letters were written by Bromwin and were intended for a number of people in the form in which they were in when they were they.

Were drafts of a letter that the deceased may have sent to these people, because they substantially repeated themselves and expanded and corrected spelling mistakes.

The detective agreed, adding that the dates on the letters were from May three to May thirteen.

And so is it the case that there also appears amongst the bound notepad to be some notes as to what missus Winfield intended to do on the weekend that she disappeared and in the week following it.

Glenn Taylor did not disagree. Matt Fordham then talked about some of the things Bromwin was planning to do.

Guitar lessons. And it says drop Lauren at Emily's place correct. Then it says Crystal and I go to real estate assessments correct. Then it says babysitter for Saturday night.

Correct.

Then there's a number Virgil or daughter and a telephone number. Is that correct? It does say that, yes, And it does say also on the next line down Sunday underlined, and then work twelve to four pm correct.

Matt Fordham continued reading what was in essence an ad hoc diary showing all the mundane things which Bromwin was attending to. Nowhere in this document was there any reference to going on a break, to being away from her children for any length of time. To the contrary, many of the references revolved around her two daughters.

And then it says car reregistration slips.

Bromwin was prioritizing that one the word must was underlined. Matt Fordham then moved on to Detective Sergeant Discan's unavailability for the inquest and.

A medical certificate indicating that he is unfit to work from it appears to be three May two thousand and two until three November two thousand and two.

Glenn Taylor agreed that he had a copy of a similar medical certificate from two thousand and one until May two thousand and two for Detective disk In. Nobody was expecting him to return to work, nor would he be appearing at Bromwin joy Winfield's inquest. Glenn was questioned about the possibilities of obtaining call charge records for the landline

That local calls could definitely not be traced in nineteen ninety three. The technology only became a vilable sometime in nineteen ninety seven. From nineteen ninety three, the only technology that was a vilable was STD calls.

Now, you'll recall that near the end of season two we touched on the crucial importance of local calls in this case. If Bromwin did make a local call resulting in someone coming to pick her up, then John Winfield's story would sound more plausible. But if Bromwin did not make such a call, and if records were available then to show this and perhaps still available now, then John's

And sir, have you made the inquiries in relation to witness by the name of Lena.

Glenn Taylor confirmed that he had talked to her. However, when he contacted her again to make final plans to see her to take a statement.

He indicated to me that she did not wish to be spoken to, did not wish to be interviewed, and she informed me he reasons why she didn't wish to be interview She indicated certain fears she held herself about becoming involved.

So no, he has not been interview You will recall that Lena's name came up in episode twenty eight when we reconstructed some of Andy Reid's evidence at the inquest in two thousand and two.

She confided in me that she did not want to be seen or even be in the same room as Jonathan Winfield ever again in her life, she said to me she labeled him a doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde.

And in an upcoming episode, you will hear more about Lena, her relationship with John, which began about a year after Bromin's disappearance, and her subsequent decision to terminate their connection and try to have nothing to do with him again.

Ma'am, could you please tell us your full name?

Jody Lynn Mayne.

Andy Reid recalls there was a discernible change of atmosphere in the court room as John's eldest daughter walked to the witness stand at eleven ten am. Jody's actions on the first day, when she spoke of Bromwin being alive and well and probably living up the road in a hippie community in Nimbon, had turned the inquest into a theater of the absurd. But still stranger things have happened.

You feel like you want to cuddle he so bad. Then you also want to sort of boot her in the bum. For what she's put you through. It I couldn't stop cuddling. It was like I saw a ghost, not a.

Ghost, but his daughter, now a young woman, overwhelmed by the world she's returned to.

She's very beautiful, very pale, and very confused and frightened that she's alive.

Matt Fordham started on an ominous note. He was flagging that things could get a bit bumpy for Jody and that she might potentially even incriminate herself in the hours ahead.

Firstly, have you received any legal advice in relation to your attendance at court and giving evidence in relation to this matter? No, ma'am. I want you to understand that if at any stage during your evidence you believe that you need some legal advice, I'd like you to indicate that to us, and if necessary, I think your Worship will pause the proceedings so that that can be obtained. Do you understand that?

Okay?

Yep?

Jody appeared unflustered. Matt Fordham started to take her through parts of her written statement from August nineteen ninety eight.

Did Brown ever discuss with you any arguments she had with your father?

We quite often talked about arguments because dad and I used to argue a lot as I was a teenager wanting to go out and do things. But mainly, yeah, just about arguments between me and him. She was always sort of trying to be the go between on things like.

Jody was asked about the configuration of the garage and it was soon established that there was an interconnecting door which was probably lockable between the garage and the house. She was asked about her father being, as Matt Fordham put.

It, barely particular in the way that he liked his house maintained.

Yes, he was fussy around the house at the time when I lived there, I thought he was fussy, but I was a teenager. Now, being twenty eight and having a family and maintaining a house myself, I don't really see any difference between the way I care for my home as he did his.

Jody spoke of being aged about twelve when she met Bromwin.

And you knew that she, for example, would have kept her handbag with her personal items. Yep, she would have maintained inside that handbag. She would have kept things like sunglasses and lipstick and things like.

That, wouldn't she Yes, she always had that sort of thing with her.

She would have kept things like her purse with her driver's license in it, for example. Yes, she would have kept in that purse some credit cards. Is that correct?

I don't know if she had credit cards.

She would have kept in that handbag. Perhaps a diary of her plans for the future. Is that correct?

I don't know. I don't remember. I don't think so. I don't know.

She would have kept some photos of our children inside that handbag. Is that correct?

Yes?

On and on the list went. Matt Fordham raised other items, and the dress book of telephone numbers for people that Bromwin knew, and receipts for recent purchases. Jody agreed, yes, Bromwyn would have most probably kept these in her handbag.

Ma'am. Are you aware of any time before Bronwin disappeared where Bronwin may have left the children unattended at any stage? Yes? I am, And what are those times?

Well, it was only once I was in Sydney, and I think it was the Saturday before she disappeared. I rang the house. I don't know why I rang the house. I don't know if Dad had told me that he thought she was home. I don't know how that happened. But I rang the home, and actually the night before I rang her and spoke to her. That was when we had a bit of an argument.

That's the Friday night.

The Friday night, the Saturday, I rang the house and Crystal answered the phone and I asked where bronwin was and she said that Bronwyn had gone out and she would be home at four o'clock. I asked her who was there with her and she said just Lauren, And I said, well, who's minding you?

Like who?

She said, nobody, I'm on my own. And she seemed to be quite happy because she was babysitting, and I suppose she felt like she was doing a job with that.

Are you aware of any arguments between Bronwyn and mister Winfield about money?

No, I don't really know what they used to argue about.

In the months before Bronwyn disappeared. Do you recall ever discussing with Bronwan on the telephone? Her arguments with your father.

Before she disappeared, like months before?

Yes?

No, not really.

Was there any incidents that you know of that caused her to move out of the home at Sandstone Crescent?

No, not any specific incident at all the arguments that you were aware of in the time that you stayed with Bronwyn and your father.

Did they ever result in violence between them?

No, not that I saw.

And you're absolutely certain that you never saw any injuries on Bronwe.

No, never, never.

You never saw any acts of violence towards Bronwin whatsoever. No, you never saw any fights to generate to the point where there was physical contact between them.

No, I've never seen.

That, and you're absolutely certain of that. Yep, ma'am. Have you ever informed anyone else that you've seen acts of violence between the two No, And you're absolutely certain that you've never told anyone that there's been violence in the family in the past.

No.

I've heard all the rumors, but I've never seen it with my own two eyes.

And so, for example, if I was to suggest to you that there was an allegation that a chair was thrown at Bronwe, that would be incorrect, Is that right?

I know about the chair incident. I don't know how I heard about the chair incident, but I definitely didn't see it.

What do you know about the chare incident?

Well, it was just one of the many little things that went around. I don't know if Bronwin told me herself, because obviously this happened when she was still around. She might have told me herself. She might have told Megan on occasional times. I think I've spoken to Megan in the past. Megan might have relayed it to me. I don't know how I know about it, but there's a few ways I could have known about it.

And did you ever discuss that incident with Bronwin?

No?

And what do you understand the allegations about the chair.

To be well, only what Michelle said the other day, and I hadn't really even thought that much about it.

What do you understand Michelle to have said the other day.

That I was there and that I saw what happened, and that he threw the chair or something like that.

You sound as though it surprised you to hear that evidence. Is that correct?

No, I just sort of kind of forgot about that. That was just but when I heard it, I remembered about the chair incident, but I don't remember. I have absolutely no memory of being there or even discussing it with Michelle, and I actually don't even remember taking a present to her child. I don't remember that at all.

Matt Fordham read part of Michelle Reid's nineteen ninety eight statement. He went to the part in which, according to Michelle, Jody had disclosed that her father and Bromwin argued often, and on one occasion she saw her father.

Pick Bronwyn up in a chair and hold her and the chair high up into the air.

According to Michelle, Jody then saw her father drop the chair with Bromwin in it. It frightened Jody and Bromwin.

No, I honestly have no recollection of ever talking to Michelle about it, That's honest. I don't remember talking to her. I don't even remember giving her a present. I don't even remember going to her house and seeing her.

Here is a reminder of something you heard early in this podcast investigation. It came out of my visit to Michelle's house to see her and Andy in early twenty twenty four, and Michelle told me back then about it. Is it by Jody to the read home in the Shire. Michelle and Andy's son, Mitchell had just been born. Broman was in Lennox Head, determined to leave John for good.

I said, did they ever argue?

Like, was there ever any arguments and stuff like that? And she said, oh, I remember one day Bromman was sitting in a chair and he picked her up in the chair and dropped it with her in it.

That was an argument they were having.

And I was really surprised, like I hadn't heard stuff like that before, and I'd written that down, of course, and that was in nineteen ninety three.

It is, of course normal to forget things. Our memory must be selective, and the reasons why we forget some things but remember others is a bit of a mystery. A witness who says, sorry, I just can't remember, or I've completely forgotten about that I don't know presents a significant challenge to a questioner, because unless there is tangible evidence of a conspiracy to lie about having forgotten certain things, how can anyone prove that the witness is lying about

Ma'am. Your mother is Jennifer Mason? Is that correct?

Yes?

John Winfield and his young bride were wed in nineteen seventy three, and it's the.

Case that sadly their marriage deteriorated and that there was a separation and divorce between your mother and your father. Is that correct?

Yes?

And what did your father tell you about Jennifer?

I don't really remember, to be honest, I lived with my dad and my grandparents, and I never really I was only so young, I didn't really question why I was there.

But over the years, what's your understanding of the reason why you ended up with your father and not your mother?

Well, my mom didn't have suitable ways of caring for me, and dad's parents obviously had the better option.

Did you feel it was strange that your father didn't arrange for you to speak with your mother over the years, that all of the contact that you had with your mother appeared to come through grandparents and other people.

No, not really.

Jody agreed that she stayed in fairly regular telephone contact with Bromwin after her stepmother's move to the Byron Street flat and the start of Bromman's formal set option from John.

What does she tell you about the clairvoyant?

She told me that the clairvoyant had told her to move back into the house, and somewhere she told me that the clairvoyant was her father reincarnated, or something along those lines.

She never spoke to you about legal advice that she'd obtained.

No, she never told me anything about that.

Did she ever speak with you about consulting the domestic violence support group?

Never?

Did you tell your father that the clair voyant had advised Bronwin to move back into the house.

I don't know. I may have, I may not have. I don't really know.

Matt Fordham took Jody to the Friday evening on which Bronwin had moved back into Sandstone Crescent with Lauren and Crystal. Jody had telephoned the house and she spoke to Bromwin that night.

Her attitude had change towards me. She wasn't like she normally is with me. We were quite friendly until that night. Her attitude had completely changed. I asked her why, and she said, because this is my house.

Jody's memory definitely got better when it came to answering some questions about Bromwin's purported conduct and conversations, but on other matters, like her father's conduct and conversations, Jody's forgettory came to the fore.

We started to get into an argument and I told her it wasn't her house. She told me Dad can stay in Sydney with me, and we argued and got into quite a bit of an argument, and then she hung up on me.

Jody agreed that the argument was intense.

Did she indicate to you whether the locks had been changed when she moved?

No, I don't know anything about the locks. I've never talked about it with her or Dad for that matter.

You see, ma'am, you've had this argument with Bronwin on the phone on the Friday in relation to who owns the house, whose house it is, and you've heard it suggested at this inquest that lock had been changed. So it must be obvious to you now that both Bronwin and your father were very keen to maintain possession of the house. Would you agree with that?

Well, yeah, it's obvious with anybody.

Jody agreed that after the argument, she probably spoke to her father about what had happened. She said John was becoming depressed and frustrated because Bromwin was limiting his telephone contact with Crystal and Lauren, because.

I used to be there when he would try and wring them, and she would deliberately not be there. So of course he was getting upset that he couldn't speak to his children. He was just sad, He was just quiet. He was upset that he couldn't speak to the kids.

Did your father ever disclose to you that he had changed the locks when he left the house in Sandstone Crescent?

Never?

You see, ma'am, you told your father on the Friday that Bronwin had told you that your father was no longer welcome at the house in Sandstone Crescent.

You I may have, because that's what she told me. I don't remember telling him, but I most likely would have.

And the fact that she was inside the house was a surprise to you.

Yep.

And you also say in your statement, ma'am, that Bronwin told you that she was going to get a restraining order so that your father couldn't go near the house.

Yeah.

In relation to who owned the house, you say in your statement that you told her that it belongs to us, being yourself, your father, and Crystal and Lauren more because she was the one that chose to leave.

Yes, I did say that to her.

When was it that you first learned that your father was to travel back up to Lennox Head.

It would have been the following day when I rang the house and spoke to Crystal. Basically when we found out Kristal was left alone with Lauren. That you know, Dad was worried about that, and that's when he, I suppose, looked into making arrangements for going home.

That was the first time that you'd ever known that Bronwin would leave the children unattended, definitely to my knowledge.

Jodie recounted, with what she said was the best of her recollection, her Saturday morning conversation with Cristel. It happened about thirty six hours before Bromman's disappearance.

She said that Mum went out, she didn't tell me where. I don't think she knew where, and that she would be home at four o'clock. She definitely knew what time, because I said I wanted to speak to her, and my main reason was I was not happy with her being at home on her own.

Did you inquire as to whether there was anyone else inside the house?

No, I just assumed it was her and Lauren.

Would you agree that, from the perspective of a ten year old who receives a phone call from you, she may not realize the importance of the questions that she is being asked by you about babysitting. Is that correct?

I think she generally said what was going.

On, But Cristeal didn't indicate that she was worried about her mother, or worried about being left alone or anything like that.

No, she was quite happy about it.

You knew the neighbors on either side, yep, you certainly knew Rebecca maguire.

Yeah.

There were a number of people at Lenox Head that could have attended the house very soon after this phone call at nine am to look after the children. Weren't there?

Well?

Yeah, did you think to contact any of these people?

No?

I didn't. I honestly didn't think too.

You'd agree that this is fairly unusual for Bronwan, isn't it.

Well, it would have been at the time I lived at home.

Jody and the police officer were far apart on the question of what it was that caused John to rush from Sydney to Barana on a Sunday evening. According to Jody, her father made the trip because he was upset at the idea of Bromwin neglecting the two girls. If that's true, it begs the question of why he didn't go up on Saturday. But the police view about the motive for

I think he was shocked like I was when I told him. He just generally, like me, he was worried about them being on their own.

Now, ma'am, I'll ask you once more, given that your father would have been so alarmed about this, and given that you can now understand the depth of that alarm, you still made no attempt or he made no attempt to have anyone go in the house and look after the children.

Well, just because you're alarmed doesn't mean that you think something is going to happen to them. You might just be concerned that you know they're on their own.

But it arranged with you for you to drive him to the airport.

Yep.

We never talked about anything. He was just going home. The kids had been left on their own and he was worried about it. He was just going home to see the kids and to sort out what was happening up there.

And what was your understanding of how long your father was to return to Lennox Head for.

We actually hadn't discussed it. I didn't think he was coming back well in the near future, and I never asked him because I didn't think he would be coming back.

Matt Fordham asked Jodie whether she remembered her father taking one of his surfboards, but she said she could not recall.

It's so long ago. I don't even remember the drive or anything. I honestly can't remember what he had with him.

She told the police officer that her shift at the Intercut's hair salon started about nine in the morning on Monday, the day after she had dropped her father at Sydney Airport for his flight to Ballina.

So it was about ten or morning tea time that your father arrived with the children. Yep, you say that you asked Dad what was happening, and he told you that Bronwin had had enough and she'd gone away for a holiday for two weeks. Is that correct?

Yeah.

It's a fairly extraordinary conversation to hear, isn't it. Yeah, So you're quite certain that your father told you that Bronwin had gone for a holiday for two weeks.

Yes, but I didn't find it surprising considering how things had been. I didn't find it surprising at all at that time. That's basically all he said. That was all that was said, and the girls were there, so I didn't really go into it further with him. I hadn't seen them for oh months, and I was sort of too busy cuddling and talking to them.

You say that he John said that she Bronwin went to the bedroom and made a telephone call, and she took a small amount of clothes.

Matt Fordham paraphrased another sentence from JODI's nineteen ninety eight statement in which she said that her father told her he heard a car pull up and leave, and he was sitting on the lounge and he didn't get up to see who had driven over to pick his wife up.

We'd sort of the girls got back into the car and we were I was on my way back into the salon sort of thing. I was sort of getting prepared to say goodbye to them, and we sort of walked towards the back of the car, and when we asked him, you know what happened? You know, like, how are you here, you know, with the kids? And that's when he told Around that same time, I think he was getting something out of the boot of the car

Did your father indicate who Bronwyn may have left the house with.

No.

I didn't ask at that time, because I just assumed that it was a pretty likely thing she might have done. It's just she was having a break from the kids, and to me, that's pretty nine years. I didn't know that at the time, did I.

When John turned up at the hair salon. He had the white falcon with him, Is that correct? Yep. You rushed and you saw the children and you saw your father. Did you look inside the white falcon at all?

I probably would have. I would have been putting Lauren back in the car or whatever. I don't remember seeing anything in there.

You don't recall seeing any bags of clothes or suitcases or anything in the car.

No, I don't. I was just excited to see them, and I was under a lot of pressure actually to get back in the salon, as I had clients waiting in there.

Now, given that your father used to surf every day, do you think it was strange that your father would return to Sydney without a surfboard?

Well, how's he going to surf when he had two kids with him?

But you see, he's come to you so that you could assist him in looking after the children, didn't he No.

I think he came to me actually to see if he could get the keys to my unit, or maybe not. I offered them to him in case he needed them. You know, he had two girls with him, he needed somewhere to go. I don't remember if I gave them to him or if I didn't, but I think I would have, because it's something I would have done.

So.

The doors of the car were open as you were greeting the children, Is that correct, I'd say, so, you didn't see the family dog there?

No, I don't remember. I don't think so. I don't remember.

You'd agree with me that it's something that you would remember if the dog was there.

Well, you would think so, But I don't so, because there must.

Be no doubt in your mind that if the dog was there that you would have cuddled the dog as well, wouldn't you.

Well, the girls might have had the dog with them on their lap. I don't. I really don't remember it. I was in an awkward situation. I wanted to see the kids and I had to get back into work.

Did your father indicate where Bronwin may have gone for a holiday too, No?

I never asked him at that time.

Jodi said that she recalled her father.

Saying something about the boxes. There were so many boxes, and that might have been in the way of later on, when I had the girls with me and their outfits and stuff. He obviously didn't have much with them, and it was something to do with you know, everything was in boxes.

Now, what was the reason given to you as to why your father had driven overnight with the children.

Well, I didn't actually ask him. I just it's common sense that the kids would travel better at night, because my kids do. But I just thought he wanted to get back to his job. I've traveled with my dad at night as a child growing up in Lenox, and for holidays, we always drove at night because I was always asleep.

Did your father ever take you up to Lenox without any other clothing?

I don't remember, but I wouldn't think so.

And as a parent today, can you indicate that it's a fairly extraordinary thing for a parent to put the kids in the car and take them to the other end of the state without any clothing appropriate for that climate.

Is it?

Yes? But I'm under the impression that he did have clothing for them. Yes, I've heard it's not much, but I'm under the impression that he had clothing.

You said that your father had returned to Sydney for the purpose of work. Is that correct?

I assume that only because he was working on a job, quite a big job somewhere at Sutherland somewhere, and he wanted to bring the girls to see me, because, like I say, Bronwin had gone away and he wanted them us to be together. I had them after work. I saw them as much as I could over that two weeks.

Jodi said that John had not told her his intention to take the girls to John's first wife, Jennifer Mason's house.

I think he said he had to do something, but we couldn't really go into it any further. I just had to get back into the salon, so I didn't really pay much attention.

Given that you're aware that Bronwin was intending to keep the home, and given that you're aware that your father had traveled up to Lennox Head to reclaim the home, did it strike you as being strange that your father would leave the house with the children.

No?

Why is that?

No?

Because I didn't think it would be strange for him to bring the kids to see me, because the month's coming up to it. I hadn't seen Crystal and Lauren.

But I'm not asking you that. I'm asking you, ma'am, whether you think it's unusual that you're father would leave the house.

No, because he was in Sydney before.

That, ma'am. After the meeting out in the street in the mid morning. Are you aware of where your father went to.

No, I wasn't. I knew he had something to do, but I didn't know what it was.

Jodi said that she did not believe her father had told her he was going to her mother's house.

You see, your father had had very little contact with your mother in the years before nineteen ninety three, hadn't he.

Well, I wouldn't say he had a great deal of contact with her, but yes, they still, through me, occasionally spoke to each other.

Did you suggest your father that perhaps he might take the children to Michelle Reid's house.

No, I didn't suggest it, or I may have, but I don't remember it.

Does it strike you as strange that your father would take the children to your mother's house instead?

No, because my mother actually lives within walking distance of the salon, so he might have just gone there on the way. It wasn't that far from where I worked.

Your father's just driven over night about eight hundred and fifty kilometers, hasn't he.

Yep?

And it's not that far between the Salon, Cranala and Reed's house, is it?

Oh? I know that, but I'm just saying that it might have been the reason why he went there.

You'd agree with me that he had several people he could have turned to before he turned to miss Mason. Yeah. Do you know where your father was for the remainder.

Of the day, No, I don't.

Did your father indicate anything to you, apart from registering the car anything that may have taken four or five hours.

No, I didn't ask him, and I didn't know until this that it was that long before he went to Michelle and Andrews.

I'm sorry.

I didn't know how long it was before he went to Michelle and Andrews, so I wouldn't have asked where he was for that time.

Matt Fordham pressed Jody on what John might have done to account for what he did from mid morning until his return to Jennifer Mason's house mid afternoon on Monday to collect the girls and then drive over to Michelle and Andy Reid's house.

He could have gone shopping the park. He could have gone back to my unit if I'd given him the keys. I don't remember.

The police officer asked her whether John had talked to her about having bought petrol in Ballina.

I was only eighteen. That's the last sort of questions or thoughts that are going through an eighteen year old's head.

I understand that it's just you see, your father has produced this receipt to the Reeds, and I honestly don't know why he's done that.

My dad keeps his receipts for everything, so I mean, that's not an unlikely thing for him to have the receipt.

You remember whether there was anybody going out buying more clothes for the children.

No, I don't remember that.

Fordham questioned Jodie about whether her father had asked her about caring for the children and how he would go about doing that.

No, she replied, adding I know he had help from my grandparents, but he raised me. I don't think anybody needs to ring up and ask somebody how to b the child, and I don't believe he would have done that.

After the adjournment for lunch, the police officer revisited the same subject, John's knowledge of parenting in Bromwin's absence. Jodi said she was surprised by the evidence of Michelle Reid, who had previously told the inquest that John would telephone her for advice. Matt Fordham's strategy showed itself with his next line of questioning.

Ma'am, if the evidence of other witnesses was that your father arrived in Sydney with the children without any substantial clothing for them, given your assessment of your father as being fairly capable as far as caring for the children goes, does that surprise you?

He was demonstrating the remarkable haste with which John left the urgency, which saw him drive away from the house without even proper clothing for his daughters. What had triggered this?

Do it?

Agree?

Yes?

But there was a lot of boxes in the house, and I can understand that things were They are all in boxes.

So you'd agree with me that somebody who's got a lot of knowledge about parenting, or someone who's got experience in looking after small children as you do now, it's one of the things that you would remember to take with you. You take clothes for the children down to Sydney, wouldn't you?

Yes, But I'm under the impression he did take clothes to Sydney.

Matt Fordham asked Jody whether she remembered her father taking one of his surfboards, but she said she could not recall. Jody held the line clearly she was backing her dad one hundred percent. But Matt Fordham was far from finished with the witness. He would ask her many more questions, and then those in the courtroom were surprised to see a new witness sworn in. It was John Winfield. Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as a