Listeners are advised that this podcast series contains course language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you by me Hedley Thomas and The Australian. Before the start of formal proceedings in front of the public on the third day of the five day inquest, John Winfield and his lawyer Craig Leggett must have been busy. When everyone
sat down in the old courtroom in Lismore. The police officer Matt Fordham wrote to tell the Deputy State Coroner what had been unfolding behind the scenes.
So I should indicate at the outset I've been handed by my friend a statutory declaration by Jonathan Winfield dated today in relation to the property settlement for his first two marriages.
Craig Leggett then stood to explain exactly what he was submitting on behalf of his client.
Just before my friend leaves that new worship. The gist of it is that in relation to the first marriage to Jenny Mason, there was no house involved in the property dissolution. It was only a matter of cash. There was no property was either owned or acquired during the marriage, so there was no house capable of being transferred John's lawyer added that in relation to John's second wife, the woman we've been calling D, there was in fact a
property on the lower eastern end of Sandstone Crescent. This was not the property which John and Bromwin had built and lived in together higher up the street. It was sold prior to the divorce separation for eighty thousand dollars, the vacant block of land having been purchased for thirty five thousand dollars. Of the eighty thousand dollars, twenty thousand dollars was repaid to the mortgagee, which was the Saint George Bank. As to the balance, fifty thousand dollars went to mister Winfield.
In other words, D received ten thousand dollars from a pool of sixty thousand dollars. The Deputy state Coroner, Karl Milivanovitch, was not told about that by John's lawyer. However, he must have assumed that D's written statement from when she spoke to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight would have been read and understood by Karl. Here is a snippet of D's interview with me from episode three. D, of course, is not the real name of John's second wife.
It is a pseudonym because when she spoke, she was anxious to mark ask her identity. She had not even told her daughters that she had been married to John Winfield.
And you moved to Lennox Head with him.
Yeah, we had a good time up there, but we actually bought a house up at Sandstone President.
And then you say John was quite bitter about the settlement following our separation.
Yeah, because he had to sell a house.
You say John didn't want to give me anything. No, well, how would that have worked out?
No?
Well, that's why I had to go. I went to court.
I had to get a solicitor and go to court to get my share of the property.
Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of out in court.
John's lawyer said he also got a car and household furniture.
So it's certainly not accurate to say that two houses have been lost to two previous wives based on the facts.
As I'm instructed, Craig Leggett made an interesting point. It was it seemed quite true that Jenny Mason and John Winfield had not owned a house together when they ended the relationship. And that's despite several witnesses giving evidence that John himself had described having lost two houses to his partners from failed relationships prior to his marriage to Bromwin. For me, the inescapable point is that John always came out well in front at the end of a relationship.
In Bromwin's case, John got everything. With this bit of.
Legal housekeeping attended to matt Fordham greeted the first witness of the third day.
It was Shirley Taylor.
The owner with her husband of the Byron Street townhouse near Scruffy and Maria's House in Lennox Head, the place where Bromwin and her daughters began in March nineteen ninety three to forge a new life of independence from John and the Sandstone Crescent Proper. It was easy walking distance to Eden's takeaway and the primary school which Lauren and Cristal were going to the school, which was quietly visited recently by New South Wales police seeking attendance records for
Lauren and Crystal from nineteen ninety three. According to a source who let me know about this, those records would show the dates the girls were away with their father.
In May of that year.
Matt Fordham took Shirley Taylor back to the day she received a check for seven hundred dollars from Bromwyn to cover the bond for the property.
And you say in your statement, ma'am, that later in the day that you were given the check by bronwin and John Winfield came to your place and asked you for the bond money to be given back to you. Is that correct?
Yes, he was very aggressive. He wanted the money back, the check back.
Did he indicate to you who owned the check or who owned the money that had been given to you for the.
Yeah, well it was just signed by his name, so I just imagine it was his.
Do you remember whether she used any form of descriptive words to describe the way she was feeling towards her husband.
No, she just said I hate him and sort of never wanted to see him again.
That was about it.
And there was no particular event that she was referring to when she made those comments. No, And ma'am, you also described on the afternoon of fourteenth May nineteen ninety three, that's the friday I think that she informed you that she was moving back to the house at Lennox Head. Do you recall that.
Yeah, I remember it very well because it was my birthday. She came over and she said, oh, she was so happy she was going back to her own home to live.
Did she say why she was going back to the house, just.
That her husband had gone to Sydney to live.
And then you say, ma'am, a couple of days after Bronwyn had moved out, two men and two women came to my house and demanded a key to get into Bronwan's unit to see if she was sick.
That's true.
And they say they were Jehovah's witnesses. Did they explain that they were from a particular congregation or any particular church or anything.
No.
And you described turning them away, ma'am in your statement, then learning that they had gained access to the flat that Bronwan was using by way of a ladder into one of the windows.
Yeah, they hired a ladder from the higher place down next door.
Ma'am. You've continued in your statement to describe that A few weeks later, John Winfield comes to your place and asks to take items that were once owned by Bronwan from the unit, and that you turned him away, and then he continues returning to you over a period of about six weeks. Do you remember how often he is to come to you asking for those goods?
Probably a couple of times a week.
And do you remember what his demeanor was when he would come and ask you for these goods?
He was aggressive and he wanted them. I had an old dog there and he used to ground him too.
Did John Winfield ever indicate to you any reason why Bronwin would not be returning to the flat in Byron Street and using those possessions again? No, And you also describe in your statement that at a latter time you were cleaning the townhouse and you located a jewelry box on top of a wardrobe. Do you remember how long after Bromwin disappeared that you found that jewelry box.
It would have been when I was cleaning it out to rend it out again.
Shirley added that it would have been sometime in June or July nineteen ninety three. By then Bromwin had been missing for several weeks. Matt Fordham went to Shirley Taylor's nineteen ninety eight statement, in which she listed the contents of the jewelry box, gold chains, and gold bracelets, a heart shaped pendant with diamonds, a gold wedding band, gold engagement ring with eight smaller diamonds around a line to diamond, and another pendant with multiple diamonds. It was a valuable trove.
Bromwin had little money when she disappeared. We know that Bromwin had been seeking loans from family, including her uncle John Reid and aunt Leah Reid. In my view, a woman desperate for money doesn't start a new life after leaving her jewelry behind in a rented property. It must have been worth several thousand dollars, but it was still in its hiding place in the townhouse while Bromwan was in the wind as police and Andy Reid in two
thousand and two suspected broman was already dead. In the courthouse that day, the jewelry box and its contents were admitted as Exhibit.
Nine without objection.
Shirley peered into the box and confirmed that it and its contents were what she had found nine years earlier. Fordham established that Shirley Taylor had no recollection of.
John visiting the rental while Bromwin was living there, nor.
Did Shirley recall having seen him sitting in his car outside on the road. She was asked by the police officer Matt Fordham about Broman's dedication to her daughters.
Well, if she ever wanted to just go down the street, she'd drop them over to my place and I'd look after them while she went down there, and they'd just sit in a lounge and play or watch TV.
Was there ever a time when Bromwin would leave the children unattended.
Not to my knowledge.
No. Apart from demonstrating Bromin's powerful and maternal instincts, the line of questioning was an effective rebuttal or counter to the claims of John and his daughter Jody. You'll recall that in his nineteen ninety eight interview with Glenn Taylor, and in Jody's police statement that year, John and his daughter did picted Bromman as a mother who had left her children alone with nobody looking after them or looking
out for them. On Saturday May fifteenth. Jody and John had suggested that this was the reason for John's decision to suddenly fly from Sydney to Balaner on Sunday. He was just concerned for the girls, not for possession and control of the house that Broman had just moved back into. Craig Leggett had questions for Shirley Taylor, starting with the clairvoyant and tarot card reader Hen Dragon, but Shirley said
she couldn't shed much light on him. John's lawyer asked if Shirley had tried to reconnect with Broman to get the keys back for the townhouse which Shirley owned.
Yeah.
Well, I kept on ringing her phone number in Sandstone Crescent. It would just ring out all the time. I thought she'd be busy moving and I just kept on ringing, probably for a week, and there was no answer.
John's lawyer spent some time asking Shirley about the people she had suspected word Jehovah's witnesses breaking into Townhouse number five Bromwin's place days after she had disappeared from Sandstone Crescent.
There was one woman smecking more, but then there was another.
One used to say a little bit.
As soon as my sister told me there was someone there, we both went over and asked them.
How did they get in?
They were all in there because one got in the window and then they opened the front door and the others came in that way.
Shirley, who was worried these strangers were possibly going to take Bromwin's things, had asked the four to leave, and she said that they did leave peacefully. You'll hear more about this when Bromwin's good friend and neighbor Deb Hall goes to the witness stand later in this episode, after Craig Leggett finished, Matt Fordham had a bit more to ask the landlady. She couldn't recall what mail, if any, went to Bromin's letterbox after she disappeared, nor what happened to.
It, ma'am. The letterboxes for those townhouses are they lockable? Do they have a key required to open them?
Yes?
The deputy state coroner, Karl Miliavanovitch had questions.
Too, Missus Taylor.
Just something I'd like to ask.
When you approached the four people, you say we're all in the unit, and you asked them to leave.
Did they leave immediately?
They just said they still wanted to look around, and I said, well she's not here, and they said, oh.
Well we'll go, and you closed the door and locked up.
Yeah.
Did you see them carrying anything?
No?
One of Bromman's neighbors who lived in a nearby townhouse. Alan Fisher went forward next.
So you say in your statement that originally, when Bronin was living in another townhouse, that you knew her to say hello, but you didn't know her terribly well. But you would make an observation, sir, in your statement, that she was very watchful over her two kids, and she was not the type to leave her kids for even five minutes. Was there any particular event that caused you to tell the police that, well, I.
Sort of faced the back of Shirley's there, and every time she went anywhere, she used to call Shirley to watch the children. She wouldn't go without them, you know, wouldn't leave them on their own, and I can't even remember them being there on their own.
You say in your statement, sir, that you recall Bronwin saying to you, I hope you didn't hear all that commotion, and that you replied, I didn't hear anything. Bronwin says, I have just had a hell of an argument over the phone with my husband. He's coming down tomorrow and I'm terrified about what he might do. Do you recall that conversation today, sir? That's correct, did she make any other comments about what she intended to do. All she said was, look.
I'm terrified about what he's going to do when he comes tomorrow. And I said, we're look at putting security doors on as soon as my son comes home, which we did, and she thanked us for doing that, and I didn't see it till the next day.
Then did she indicate where she thought that her husband was coming from?
Well, the way, I thought that he was either in Brisbane or he was in the area. She said he was coming down. That's all I just assumed myself. She said tomorrow, because that's why we put the doors on. She was expecting him on the Friday morning.
And so is it the case that you spoke to her again on the Friday afternoon about three pm when you saw her with a trailer in the driveway removing some of her possessions. Is that correct?
Yeah, I'd come home from work and she was there with someone with a trailer and a youth taking possessions out of the place. And she come down to where I was and I just said to her, what's going on? And she said, we're moving back to the family home. I said, how'd you get on with your husband, and she said it was better than expected. She said, he's letting us move back in. That was the word she said to me.
So when she was moving her possessions out of Byron Street, did she have anyone with her giving her a hand?
She had one gentleman. He looked like he mowed lawns and things. He had a trailer on behind you, And I just asked her, did she want a hand with any of her gear? She said, no, I'm leaving the rest. I'll pick that up later on. I think I did end up helping her move one wardrobe.
Some days later, Alan Fisher saw the group of four adults using the ladder to.
Enter Bromwin's rented townhouse.
All I know is I knew she wasn't there, that she'd gone, And when I came home, the ladder was up against the back eaves and the window was open, and I could see people moving around. So immediately I ran into Shirley and I said, what's.
Going on over there?
She said they were just worried, concerned about her health and wanted to have a look through the place. She said they weren't there after anything, They were just concerned about her.
Mister Fisher, you made your statement in July of nineteen ninety nine. That was some six years after the events took place. That's so, isn't it.
Yeah?
In order to get you back to the relevant period of time, did the detective jog your memory that it was a Friday, that was the day when Bromwin left the unit. No, you had an independent recollection six years later that it was a Friday, did you.
Well, I knew when she left and when people were talking about that she'd gone missing, and sort of it was still fresh in my mind. It's something that happened at the time. You sort of think back about it.
And it wasn't your birthday on the Friday or anything, was it.
No.
Craig Leggett then dedicated many questions to the incident, involving Broman's friends deb Denise Barnard, her husband Les, and Murray Nolan. When they had gone to the townhouse and used the
ladder to get in, they are not Jehovah's witnesses. Questions about the layout of the townhouse, the direction of the ladder, the presence of cars in the area and the driveway, and whether the higher equipment venue had previously been operated as a nursery, and how long in Alan Fisher's estimation, the interlopers had been at the property prior to Alan alerting Shirley Taylor. The lawyer drilled into all of these matters,
and it was difficult to see why. Perhaps it was all about his next question, for some unexplained reason.
Did the people inside the unit appear to be going through any wardrobes or looking for possessions to take away? We were able to see anything like that?
Well, I didn't observe it that closely. All I saw was people there, and as I said, as far as I was concerned, he could have been tradesmen. I didn't observe it any more than that.
Moving to another topic, you say that Bron on another Friday said to you it went better than what I thought. He has agreed to let us move back into the family home. Yes, and that's a conversation which stuck in your recollection, is it?
That's right? Because I was the one that asked her. I said, how did it go today? And she said it weren't real good. It went better than I expected. She said, he's agreed to let us move back in the family home.
Matt Fordham addressed the next witness, Desiree Flood. Like Alan Fisher, she was another townhouse neighbor she had met Bromwin.
Ma'am, there's a couple of things that you relate in your statement that I'll ask you to expand upon.
The police officer assisting the coroner related the part of her nineteen ninety eight statement in which she believed that Bromwin appeared to be happy and told her that she was moving back into her family home as her husband John was going to stay.
In Sydney today. Are you still quite certain that it was the Sunday the sixteenth that you had that conversation with Bronwin.
Yeah, I am absolutely.
And ma'am, do you recall her demeanor when she was telling you about her husband coming Well, I thought it.
Was a bit funny that she actually said that to me, because we never had personal conversations anyway.
Did she indicate to you why she was telling you.
This, No, No, I think she was just preparing us to hear a noise, maybe an argument or something. The units were very close you could hear through the walls sometimes.
Have you heard any arguments occurring inside Bronwyn's unit before no. Have you ever heard her talking on the telephone before?
Well, we could hear, but we never listened like you could hear people talking on the phone.
But you didn't take that much.
Notice when you heard Bromwin talking on the phone. Could you determine her tone of voice?
No, not really.
She didn't give me a reason to think, you know, she was upset or anything.
And ma'am you say that, but that was the last time you saw Bronwin on that Sunday sixteen May. Yes, you made some observations of Bronwyn's appearance at the time. Do you remember what they were?
Yeah?
I do.
I went to her door and knocked on the door and she answered she didn't want to talk.
But I think she had got a bit of a black eye.
She had make up covering her eye, and she had sunglasses on, not dark glasses, but she had glasses on it.
And you could see firstly the glasses that she was wearing. Did she normally wear glasses?
I don't think she didn't know. I don't know.
Are you able to indicate roughly what size the bruise that you saw may have been?
It came down, it was quite big.
You are indicating with your finger in the witness box. There a line from underneath your eye extending out towards the side of your left cheek, the left side of your face, just above the cheekbone. Is that correct?
That's correct? Yeah?
And did you ever discuss that with her the bruise?
No, I didn't know. She didn't want to talk that day.
What was it that prompts you to say that she didn't want to talk that day?
She had a head down.
When I knocked on the door, she opened the door and I said to her, would you mind moving your car?
Ma'am? You say in your statement that you found it extraordinary that Bronwn would leave her kids and have no further contact with them. What things did you see that prompts you to say that that was an extraordinary thing?
Well, what I did see of her with her children was if they were in the courtyard playing, she'd be sitting on the step. If she went inside, the kids would go inside with her. The front door was always closed. That's about it. Basically, whenever they were allowed outside, she was outside with them.
There was no challenge to any of it from John's lawyer, Craig Leggott, And then it was time for Deb Hall. I first heard from Romwin's good friend and neighbor sixteen years after she gave her evidence in the two thousand and two inquest in Lismore. An email from Deb to me in August twenty eighteen was triggered by my investigation
for the Teacher's Pet podcast series. Just like with Bromwin, the story of the disappearance of Lynn Dawson now known as Lynn Simms was unfolding with weekly episodes, and Deb was listening in.
She wrote to me, back then.
This man John Winfield continues as does Chris Dawson, to proclaim his wife just ran off and joined a cult or went with another man. There is so much more I could inform you of in this case, but it would take me hours. I just felt I needed to highlight the extreme similarities of my best friend's case. I really hope that justice is done for both these poor women.
I replied an hour later, and I wrote, Hi, Debbie, maybe it's serendipity someone else has mentioned this case to me. I won't be able to get to it for a while, but I'm interested in knowing as much as possible about it. Can you help by writing as much as you can, I would treat it as a confidential disclosure.
Dare Band.
Her friendship with Bromwin reminded me of two other women. One was Julie Andrew. The other was her neighbor and good friend, Lynn, who disappeared from Bayview on Sydney's Northern Beaches in nineteen eighty two. Bayview was the name of the first episode of The Teacher's Pet, and Julie Andrew was an integral part of it.
My friendship with Lynn was just a this beautiful gift because she was so ah.
She was beautiful.
She's just so lovely and sweet. She was a truly sweet, caring, loving woman.
Like Debhaul, Julie Andrew was suspicious from a very early stage that Lynn, a mother of two girls, had been murdered.
The best way to dispose of a body when you live in the bush is to put it in the bush. And that's what I say, thank you did on the Friday night.
In two thousand and two. Matt Fordham was deeply involved in Lynd's case. He had presented the brief of evidence the year before to a senior coroner who recommended a murder prosecution, which the then Director of Public prosecutions, Nicholas Cattery refused to run on the grounds as he believed
that there was insufficient evidence. In two thousand and three, matt Fordham and the police officer Damien Lohne presented the brief again, but with several more statements to another senior coroner, Karl Milvanovitch, and after days of public hearings in Sydney, he too recommended a murder prosecution, but again the same DPP refused to give the green light. In two thousand and two, between those two inquests for Lynd's case, matt Fordham was in Lismore for the missing and presumed dead
mother of two girls, Bromwan Joey Winfield. He started asking Bromwyn's good friend Deb Hall about her visit to the rented accommodation in Byron Street shortly after Bromwin had disappeared.
We were very concerned about Brown at this stage, and I believe that Les obtained a ladder and he climbed up onto the roof and gained access to the unit.
And did you see anything inside the unit?
No, We just sort of looked around to see if there was anything there that indicated the whereabouts of Bromwin or if she was there.
Do you know of anything or any reason that may have led missus Taylor to believe that you may have been Jehovah's witnesses.
No, I'm not a Jehovah's witness.
Matt Fordham relied on Deb's nineteen ninety eight police statement, as he told her he wanted to expand on her description in that document of having met Bromwin. When she introduced herself, having newly arrived in Sandstone Crescent, where she and John were building that house, Bromwyn became upset and started crying. When Deb asked her what was wrong, Bromwin confided that her husband John had been giving her a hard time.
Yeah, I do remember that. Yes, she came to my house to introduce herself, and then she got very upset, and I thought something is not right here, So I inquired, are you okay? And she indicated that she'd had a few problems with her marriage. She had a few year dealings with John that she was upset with. She didn't elaborate terribly much, though at that stage.
The police officer suggested to Deb that the two women became firm friends and met almost on a daily basis. They helped each other with childcare and other needs. Matt Fordham paraphrased deb statement in which she had said John was fanatical about having the house spotlessly clean, how if the kids spilt anything, he would become angry, and how he resented Bromwan's friends coming to visit her at the house. Bromwyn had told Deb that John would later verbally abuse
her if a friend dropped in. She was always short of money too, because John would not give her enough. Matt Fordham asked about the frequency of these sorts of concerns raised by Bromwyn.
It came up quite a lot. Yeah, over the time that I knew Bromwyn, more so than you would imagine with normal conversations with other people.
Yes, And over the couple of years that you have lived next door to Bronwyn, could you estimate to us roughly how often she would complain of problems with her marriage to you?
Well, I saw her almost every day. I'd say it would have to be at least once or twice a week. Yes.
The deeply personal subject of Bromwin's pregnancy and termination were raised in the courtroom.
Well, she told me, I think she told me before she actually told John that she thought she might have been pregnant. She adored children because I think I'd had my last baby around the same time. And yeah, she was very upset that she might have had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy, which she eventually did, but she was in quite a turmoil about that. Well, she wanted the baby, but knowing that John didn't.
Did she indicate to you what she feared may have happened had she kept the pregnancy.
I think she felt that a marriage would really fall apart. It would have put added strain on it.
Matt Fordham went to another part of deb statement in which she disclosed that in early nineteen ninety three Bromwyn confided she might leave John and how according to Bromwyn, John had told her that if she left, she would get nothing, and that included the children, the house, and all the furniture. Bromwyn had said that John told her that all she would get would be the clothes on her back, and she.
Used to say to me, I can't leave him. You've got no idea what is capable of and I would get nothing. So that was a general theory behind that.
Do you remember the circle instances of this topic being discussed.
It actually took place on and off over the six months, really because she was having a lot of trouble for quite a while.
Did she ever discuss with you places that she may go to to run away from John?
No.
The police officer asked if Bromwin ever talked, for example, about whether her family in Sydney might be a source of assistance to her if she had to flee John.
No.
What about her talking to a solicitor. Matt fordamasked, did Bromwin disclose this to her friend and.
Neighbor after she'd moved out. Yes, she indicated she was going to seek legal advice as to what she was entitled to.
Then the police officer spoke about Bromwin's move back into the house and how Deb was surprised and concerned about John and his reaction to this, how Bromwin had told Deb that there were people Bromwyn could ring if there were any troubles. Did Deb recall where she was when Bromwin told her these things.
At the front door, right, because she came to my house and I entered the door and there she was with the children, and I asked her what are you doing? And she said, I'm moving back into the house. And I immediately just thought if John finds out she's in the house, there'll be dramas So I said, what's John going to do when he finds out you're back in the house And she said, that's okay. There's people I can contact if there's any trouble.
On the Sunday morning of May sixteen, according to Deb's statement to the police five years later, Bromwin went over to her neighbor's house again to ask Deb to look after Crystal and Lauren from eleven am to four pm while Bromwin went to work. Matt Fordham wanted to know if Deb was aware that Bromwin would be at Eden's takeaway.
For that shift.
That's right, yes, I think she mostly planned her work around the school hours through the week and on weekend it would be well. She'd approached myself or other friends, but they were always taken care of when she worked.
Yes, About four point thirty pm, Deb's statement goes on, Bromwan arrived back at Sandstone Crescent and she collected the children from Deb's house. Matt Fordham read aloud the part where Deb had related Broman's conversation that afternoon, how happy she and the children were to be back in the house, and how Bromwin had disclosed that she had a busy week ahead of her, a school week for Crystal and Lauren.
Perhaps most importantly, at no stage, according to Deb, did Bromwin mention any plan to go away to be absent from the house or her girls.
Was there any other things that Bromwin mentioned to you that she was planning to do that week.
I think she mentioned that she still had her things at the unit and she was planning on retrieving those and bringing them back to the house. Just general clothing, possessions of the children, things like that. Right, she had work she had to do that week at the takeaway shop. Yes, just general chores of a mother.
Basically, Deb went to bed at about eight thirty pm on the Sunday night. She confirmed in her evidence that she didn't hear or see anything until she woke about six point thirty the next morning and saw that the white Ford Falcon was missing from the driveway.
Was that unusual?
Yes?
And you mentioned that to your partner Murray, and he told you something that he saw happened the previous night well.
I remember I was in the bathroom opening the bathroom window, and my bathroom basically looked straight up onto the driveway, and that's when I noticed that the vehicle wasn't there, because she always passed the car on the driveway, never in the garage. I thought, that's odd at six thirty in the morning, and I walked back into the bedroom and just happened to say to Murray, car's missing. It's a bit strange. It's half past six in the morning. I wonder where she could have gone at this hour,
you know, so early. And he happened to just mention to me that he'd heard it leave the night before, and I just sort of thought, hmm, okay, and I said, that's a bit strange. I wonder where she's gone.
And was there any discussion about the car leaving with your husband at the time.
No, because I basically was running late for work, and so I got the kids off the school and went off to work.
The police officer asked whether at that stage deb had any discussion with Maurray about him having noted or seen that the car had its engine turned off when it left.
No, he was still in bed at that stage because he'd hurt his back. I remember just getting ready and off I went to work. There was no more discussion.
Do you remember when it was or have you since learned about the engine not being turned on?
I have yes.
And when was it that you first heard about that?
It could have been six months later or it could have been before that. I don't have any real recollection of when that exactly was.
And how did you find out about that through Murray?
Was that also the case regarding the lights? Matt Fordham asked, yes, right.
He thought it was strange at the time, so I said, well, yeah, that doesn't seem right. Perhaps you should let somebody know about that, and I think he did eventually.
The police officer asked if Murray spoke to Deb further about the car and its exit from the driveway.
He told me he heard at bottom out on the roadway. He thought it was strange. We'd never heard it do that before.
Deb was asked whether she recalled anything in particular about those telephone calls that she had tried to make to Bromwin after these unusual events.
That was mainly what sticks in my mind that I couldn't get on to her.
Matt Fordham reminded deb about some inquiries that she made with her own children about Bromwyn's girls and whether they were at school.
Did Bromwin ever mention to you places that she may have gone for a couple of days, or did she ever mention to you that she may in fact go away for a couple of days.
No, she never mentioned to me that she may have gone away. I thought, well, if the children are at school, then obviously Bromwin's somewhere. But because they weren't at school, I assumed that children were with Bromwin and that perhaps she may have decided to go away for a couple of days with the kids.
By Tuesday, according to debs statement, Bromwin's other good friend, Denise Barnard, telephoned. Denise had been called by Andy Reid in Sydney. He told Denise that John and the children were in Sydney. Andy was concerned about Bromwin. Matt Fordham asked if there was any other conversation deb could recall.
So only that I was bewildered when she told me that John and the children were in Sydney, and I just thought, when did John come up? When was he here? That was my immediate reaction. I got more concerned then. Yes,
I was quite shocked to learn he'd been there. And you say that nobody had seen or heard from Bronwin and that this caused you to feel very concerned about her well being, and that Murray, your husband, had told you that he'd received a phone call from John Winfield asking him to go into the house and check if there was any sign of Bronwin. And you say that you decided to go down to the house with Murray and have a look through. Did you look in the
rooms inside the house? Yes, didn't touch anything, just walked through, had a good look, just to satisfy my curiosity that yes, there was nothing amiss there.
And in your statement, ma'am, you described that the house was generally quite untidy, and that there was still food on plates, where washing in the machine beds not made, and that it appeared to you as if though the house had been left in a hurry. Was this the very first time that you'd seen the house in such a state?
Oh?
Yes, absolutely, And on each of these occasions that you'd been to the house previously, how was the house maintained?
Inside spotless? You could eat off the floor.
And the things that you say in your statement about the food on plates, where washing in the machine, and beds not made. Did that strike you as being particularly unusual.
Oh, very very unusual. Yes, John was more than meticulous one around the house. But she did keep it tidy, and yes, she knew she basically had to.
Now, ma'am, inside the house. Is it possible to gain access to the garage from inside the house?
Yes, there is a door that connects the house to the garage.
And did you go to the garage at all?
No, didn't get into the garage.
Did you see a Medicare check on the kitchen bench.
No, I didn't see anything like that.
If there had been a Medicare check there, do you feel confident that you would have seen.
It, Yes, definitely.
You described going to the main bedroom and you say that all of Bromin's clothes, makeup, and personal items appeared to be there except her handbag.
Yes, the only bag I saw was this cane bag with nothing in it.
And ma'am, you say that inside the house there was no signs of any struggle in the house. Is that correct?
That's correct.
Matt fordamasked deb if it was possible that when John was relating to Deb what had happened on the Sunday night with Bromwin having purportedly made a telephone call and then a car coming to pick her up. Had John said it might have been a taxi?
No, he told me a person had yeah turned up at the house. To me, he indicated it was a car because I asked him whether he saw who it was or what the car looks like, and he made no indication to me that he knew who it was.
You describe in your statement, ma'am, some general conversation, mostly about where Bronwin would go to. Do you remember what the ideas of places she may have gone to were coming from John? From John?
Yes, I think Queensland was mentioned, but apart from that not much else.
No.
And you continue in your statement, ma'am, to describe that John told you that he thought she must have gone somewhere for a holiday somewhere. Is that correct?
Yes?
Did John use the words holiday?
Yes?
Yes.
Did he ever convey that he felt that Bromwin would not be coming back to the house, the police officer asked Deb.
No, No, he didn't convey to me that she wasn't coming back to the house.
Did he indicate to you a thing about a boyfriend that Bromwin may have had.
He'd indicated to me a few, yes, a few fables. I believe that she'd run off with a certain gentleman in town, one of which was a Lance Emery. And yes, I just found that a bit unbelievable, But yes, he did try and indicate a few scenarios of who she may have gone off with.
Before returning to the balance of Deb's evidence on day three of the inquest, Let's look at what appears to be a pattern of conduct by John in suggesting that Bromwin had gone away with a lover. Megan Reid wrote in her diary in nineteen ninety three that John told
her Bromwin had run off with a boyfriend. The detective Glenn Taylor made a note in nineteen ninety eight about John's angry phone call to him in which John stated that Bromwin would be with some as John put it, rich sugar Daddy Lennox head local, and that Armstrong recalled that the other detective, Graham Discin, had repeatedly suggested to her in nineteen ninety three that Bromwin had quote run off with a fella unquote, no prizes for guessing the
probable source of that information. Bromwan used to go to Bernie's hairdressing saleon opposite Eden's takeaway in Lennox Head, and Bernie recalled being visited there by Graham discin here's a reminder from episode five.
This is how he spoke to me. Come on, you're in here, all you girls, and you know it.
She's done.
I said, what are you talking about?
And I've got on the cli.
Horse straight away and he said, you've got the gots here. I said, I haven't got the goths here to spit it out and what you want. And he went, you know she's run off with somebody. She would have told you that a boyfriend. He said it about three times. Oh, she's got a feller. She's run off to the fella that I said. She was a lovely Clyde. That's all I know.
I said, I know nothing personally about the girl.
I said, but I'll tell you what.
That's something I would never believe that she's left those two little girls. And you know I've stuck to that headley all the way through it, all the way through it.
John told Bromwin's sister Kim Marshall in mid nineteen ninety three that he believed Bromin was having an affair with
another man. He told Kim and her brother Andy that Bromwin had been quote running around town on the back of a motorbike end quote, and John told a number of people, including Michelle and Andy and Meghan and Kim and deb and Murray, that Bromwin must have returned to the house weeks later because assigned Medicare check had been left on the kitchen bench, and John suggested that Bromwin must have had another man because a pair of John's
jeans and the jumper were also missing, he claimed. Graham Diskin's police running sheet in nineteen ninety three actually noted investigations into the possibility of Bromwin having run off with any of three potential men. One was Pendragon, the tarot card reader and clairvoyant, who was even placed under surveillance by Graham Discan. Another was Gary Jackson or Jacko, who worked at Eden's Takeaway with Bromwin. Jacko did ride a
motorbike around Lennox and Bromwin was fond of him. She believed they might have a future together, but inconveniently for John's story. Gary Jackson was in New Zealand when Bromwin disappeared. The third man, Lance Emery, was spoken to by Graham Discan. Lance worked at the surf shop next to Eden's Takeaway, and he told Graham Discin in nineteen ninety three that he sometimes spoke to Bromwin and they had coffee together once out the front of the shops.
Where they worked.
He said there was never any talk between him and Bromwin about a potential romantic relationship if Bromwyn had an intimate relationship with someone other than John. In early nineteen ninety three, she confided in No One and nobody has come up with a single sintilla of evidence to support what looks like a baseless smeer for John's claims to
be true. Bromwyn hid her new man from everyone she knew, her colleagues at the takeaway, the other young mums at the local school playgroup, the three solicitors Bromwyn visited in early nineteen ninety three, her brother Andy and sister in law Michelle, her cousin Megan, sisters Kim and Melissa, her Byron Street neighbors, and landlady, her Sandstone Crescent neighbors, and her close friends Deb Haul and Denise Barnard, and the
woman we have been calling Joan. There is a single common denominator in the claims about Bromwin purportedly running off with a so called boyfriend, John Winfield. Now let's go back to the inquest and the police officer Matt Fordham's questioning of Deb Hall about some of her other conversations with John soon after Bromin disappeared.
He didn't indicate to you at this stage any ideas about her running off with a religious group or anything like that. No, he didn't indicate to you anything about Bromwin leaving because of some form of mental illness or something like that.
He mentioned to me that Broman's mother had done the same thing to her, So he was indicating to me that you know, this is not unusual, it's in the family.
In that context, after Bromwan had gone missing, did John ever indicate that he was concerned that Bromwin might cause him to.
Lose the house? The police officer asked Deb.
No, not after she'd gone missing.
No, what about whether he was concerned about Bromin divorcing him? And taking off with the children.
No, No, nothing at all.
And do you recall what John's attitudes towards reporting her missing was.
He wasn't that keen to do it, basically at the time. I think this was in the early days of when she'd gone missing, because I was just very concerned about her and I just thought that the police involvement needed to be had, And he did not appear to me when I mentioned it to him, to want to rush in and do that.
And ma'am, over the years that you knew Bronwin, would it be a possibility, ma'am, that she would voluntarily leave her children unattended for such a period of time. No.
The police officer asked about whether she formed a view about John's parenting skills. Were they up to looking after the two girls at that time?
No, I mean any male could do it, but he did not spend as much time with the children as what broman would have.
Did John ever express any dissatisfaction that Bromwin was not there to look after the children, the police officer asked deb.
No.
Matt Fordham took deb to the part of her statement in which she recalled John telephoning her to ask her to look after the two girls while he went to ball On a police station to report Bromwin as a missing person. Deb remembered commenting to John that it was about nine thirty pm, and she asked him why didn't he report her missing in the morning. John had a response.
To this, as Deb recalled, whilst it was still fresh in his mind.
Though the words that are used, that's the words he used.
The police officer asked Deb if she could recall anything in particular that might have prompted John to want to do it that late at night.
Oh, I think I did actually mention to him that if he didn't, I would because I was worried.
Deb was perplexed about the documented timing of John's report to the police. She believed that it was in early.
June, not late May.
John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, went straight to this discrepancy. Craig Leggett pointed out to Deb that it was obvious from the running sheets that Jonathan Winfield had reported Bromwin missing on May twenty seven. He wanted to know whether Deb accepted that the running sheet entry was probably right and that Deb was mistaken.
I thought it was the long weekend in June, and I think the conversation I had with John was why don't you wait till tomorrow? And he didn't want to do that because he didn't want the kids to know where he was going.
Maury's back injury and his hospitalization were approached, the topic would get a lot of attention during questioning of Murray later that afternoon in the court room in Lismore.
You could subpoena the records if you wish. But I do work at the hospital myself, but I think he was given panadine for the pain. He possibly could have had a bit of morphine at the initial stages.
There is a provision in the Coroner's Act which enables a witness to say something which can't be used against the witness in future.
John's lawyer explained to Deb that the Deputy State Coroner could issue a certain certificate. It would essentially protect her in the event that she said anything in her evidence which might incriminate herself.
If you need to avail yourself of that, just feel free.
To That's when Karl Milivanovitch spoke up again.
Well, whatever she says is not going to involve any legal proceedings.
Against her Murray and you in relation to recreational drug use. I'd like you to describe on oath what's been your observation of Murray's recreational drug use around the time of March, April and May nineteen ninety three.
He certainly hasn't used any sort of drugs that would, you know, create a state of mind that was not functional.
You seem to be drawing a distinction between some drugs that were taken but might not have had that effect. Is that what you're intending to convey.
Well, Murray is not a drug user on a You were.
About to say, not on a regular basis.
Were you He's not a This is very I don't know how to answer that, because I, oh, just truthfully, all right, truthfully, yes, Murray has you marijuana, but he certainly doesn't use it on a day to day basis or a week to week basis.
And tell us about the extent of the use of the marijuana. When is the last time to your knowledge that he used marijuana? Remember you are on oath.
I can't honestly say the exact time. It would have been quite a long time.
Ago, early nineteen ninety three. No, No, was he using marijuana? Was he or was he not using marijuana to manage the pain associated with his back injury.
No, he wasn't, not at all, not at all.
No, Now, why didn't you tell the police about breaking into Bromwin's unit with the latter.
Well, obviously it was the wrong thing to do. I acknowledged that, but we were concerned about Bromwin at the time.
John's lawyer then switched to questions which seemed designed to show that Bromwin was possibly a fantasist, a deluded woman who made up stories about famous people whom she purported to know.
Can you remember brom Wan telling you at some stage about how her ex husband and she used to socialize with John Singleton. Can you remember John Singleton's name.
Yes, we had a conversation just over coffee one day and she mentioned that she was friends of John Singleton.
John Singleton at the time was very high profile. He was a giant of advertising. He was regarded as a lovable rogue. He could not sing a note, but in nineteen eighty seven he released a hit single. It was called I Think I'm Drunk Again. It was another era upturned run.
To stand up on two feet too damn proud roll.
Upturned run to rock two stone to roll got no class at all. Tragically, one of John Singleton's daughters was murdered in the Bond Eyed Junction stabbings.
In twenty twenty four.
Craig Leggett put to deb that she had asked John whether it was true that bronwin and John Singleton were friends.
And you raised that with mister Winfield at some stage, didn't she yes? And he said she's just making it up or something like that.
Didn't he yes, something to that effect.
Yes.
I just thought, oh, well maybe she did. Maybe she didn't. You know, we all know somebody who's a star.
Perhaps.
Can you remember at some stage Bronwan's saying to you words to the effect, look, I'm a good actress. I'm good at fooling people.
She might have said, oh, I would have liked to have been an actress.
Can you recall having a conversation with mister Winfield where you said to him, Bronwan's told me that she's a good actress.
It could have come up in conversation, but she specifically didn't say, oh, an actress, I can fool people.
No.
Can you remember expressing the view to John Winfield at some stage that Bronwin is definitely not well something like that.
I felt she was just so stressed out with a lot of things that had been going on in her life with John, And yes, she might have needed some time out just to deal with marital issues mainly. That's where I felt that she was unwell, in the fact that she was not coping with a lot of things that had been going on with her life.
So as of May nineteen ninety three, it was your view that she was emotionally drained and really just not coping mentally well.
No, I think she was just a woman who had had so much over the years that she was just at her wits end. Yeah, emotionally drained more than anything.
Emotionally drained and well at a breaking point. Would that be a fair comment, do you think?
No, I wouldn't say she was at a breaking point because I think she was copying in a sense, but not coping in another sense.
Deb recalled having asked broman about John's reaction to the move from Sandstone Crescent to the rental in Byron Street. Bromwin had told her friend that John was relaxed about that move.
The impression I've got of John was that his house was his castle, and by Bromwin moving out, she posed no threat to him as far as taking that away from him.
So it was certainly not the impression that you had that John was incredibly angry about her moving out. It was, in fact the other way it seem.
Craig Legate said that by May thirty, nineteen ninety three, it was a fortnight since Broman's disappearance, and three days after John had officially reported her as a missing person, Deb and another friend had been to the ball and a police station themselves and they talked to an officer there, Julie Donovan.
It appears to be the case. You didn't say to Julie Donovan anything about the unusual circumstances with the car lights not being on or the engine not being on.
No, because I don't think I had the conversation with Murray, as I said, until sometime after that.
Now your major statement, your written statement that's been made available to his worship on eighteen September nineteen ninety eight. According to the.
Document, Craig Leggett suggested to Deb that at that stage, that's five years later Murray had given deb some more information about the vehicle movements.
Oh, he had. Yes.
Now, nowhere in the statement do you volunteer the information to the effect, Look, there was something strange about the vehicle movements. Murray told me no lights, no engine on.
Because I'm giving the statement. From my perspective, I didn't see that, so I didn't feel that it was up to me to come forward with that information.
Was it any part of your thinking on eighteen September nineteen ninety eight when you were giving the statement that look, maybe Murray's judgment was Is it fuzzy that night?
No, there was no doubt in my mind with what Murray had told me. I knew he would do the right thing. It was up to Murray to portray that information, not myself because I didn't see anything.
John's lawyer asked deb Hall whether she knew that members of the public have obligations to provide information.
If they believe it is actually sound.
I understand, yes, And Craig Leggot added information that really warrants being passed on.
Yes, I understand that.
He suggested to Deb that part of the reason she didn't go to the police earlier to pass it on. Part of The reason why Deb, as Craig Leggitt put it, had withheld the information from police, was because deb herself didn't regard the information from Murray as solid.
I wasn't withholding information. I knew Murray would disclose what he knew. In the initial stages of the investigation, the detectives were just treating it as a missing person. We just assumed after a period of time, well, she'll always be a missing person. And therefore we didn't find it relevant to go in there every two months and say this is what else we know, because nothing, no feedback was coming to us in any way from the detectives or the police station in that way.
You know that John Winfield's father lived for a number of years at NUSA, don't you.
Yes, I believe he did.
Yes.
Can you remember that John would occasionally leave early and visit his father and would drive to NUSA.
I vaguely remember John going and visiting his father.
Sure, yes, And can you remember that on those occasions we he'd go to visit his father. He would usually leave in the middle of the night, and he would roll the car out of the driveway with the lights off and the engine not running, so as not to disturb you guys in the bedroom immediately next to the driveway.
Yes, but I think sometimes he may have even started the car before he drove down the driveway.
Craig Leggett suggested that if John was leaving the house at three or four in the morning, there were good reasons not to start the car engine and turn on the car lights, with Deb's bedroom being right next door to John's driveway. Possibly yes, and that's because, as the lawyer added, Deb would have been in bed only a matter of meters away from the car engine as it was leaving the driveway.
What's been your observation of Murray's memory over the years.
He's got an excellent memory. He's better than me, way better than me.
And in terms of Murray's perception, his eyesight and his hearing in nineteen ninety three, how was that excellent? I'm not doing too well here.
I'm sorry. I'm only telling the truth.
Craig Leggett's job with Deb Hall was done. Matt Fordham was brief in his re examination of Bromwin's good friend. He wanted to know whether, in the years they were neighbors, did Deb ever see Bronwyn with any injuries.
No, I can't say that I ever saw her with any injuries.
No.
Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case, please contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
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