Episode 29: Out Of Character

Listeners are advised that this podcast series Broman contains course language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. In our reconstructions of evidence and testimony from witnesses at the two thousand and two in quest, you are hearing the actual questions from John's sharpshooting lawyer, Craig Leggett, as well as the police officer Matt Fordham, and of course the response

Now.

The voice actor for Craig Leggett in this podcast series is a senior lawyer in Brisbane and a friend, Dan Williams. Subscribers who watched one of the three lengthy videos that we released in early twenty twenty five would have seen Dan Williams and Karina Berger talking about the recently renewed

Well.

I think the first risk is that the police may quite reasonably regard that as preempting or interfering with their investigation, and that would be significant concern, But perhaps a little bit more than that. I think if you did that, then you've gotten yourself squarely involved in the process of

And you're referring to it as a crime scene. But of course we don't know that's the case. We're only suggesting that it looks possible.

So when I say crime scene, I just mean a place where there is a reasonable speculation that there might be evidence there which is relevant to the prosecution of a crime.

We're in a bit of a quandary as to what we should do. What is your view?

Heavily the owners of the Yellar Wung property could authorize you to do a search. They're in control of their own property. But given that the reply from the coroner does indicate that there is a current investigation by the police, presumably assisting the coroner to make a decision about what powers the coroner should exercise, I would be inclined not to proach the owners for that purpose. The police could establish it formally as a crime scene. They may have

Now.

There may come a time when it becomes clear that neither the coroner nor the police are going to take the matter further, and at that point, I guess you could revisit your options. Right at the moment, there's a live investigation going on, there's a genuine possibility that the police may have their own intentions in relation to the Illawong site, and in those circumstances, I think it would be prudent for you to take no steps.

What's the difference between this and using side scan sona with Chris Darcy and his team at Lake Ainsworth, that publicly accessible lake in Lenox when we were concerned about the possibility of Bromin's body having been dumped there.

Very clearly Lake Ainsworth had not been designated as a crime scene by the police. There's no suggestion that they've ever shown any interest in that site. You must certainly have not interfered with a crime scene or in any way with the investigation.

And the pointers to Illewong are stronger than the pointers to Lake Ainsworth.

Yes, I would say so the hypothesis that Lake Ainsworth might be relevant was a reasonable one. It was certainly worth having a look. The Illowong property might be a crime scene. Clearly from the material that's come to light so far, including through your podcast, there must be a prospect. But that's where Bromin is. There is an unexplained period of time when John first traveled to Sydney clearly had

Yeah.

For me, it's significantly about those factors you mentioned, as well as the timing of the concrete pause there.

Yeah, exactly nothing that you've uncovered so far would rule out the possibility or even put it seriously in doubt. Personally, I would think that it's a much more likely spot.

I'm going to talk to Andy and Karina Berger and Michelle about this and we'll reach a final decision. Craig Leggett started with an attack on Andy's theory that John might have disposed of Bromwin in the septic tank near the Sandstone Crescent House.

You're aware of the seriousness of the allegation that you've just stated under oath that it's your view that mister Winfield put your sister in the septic tank and put in acid and hydrate line. Are you aware of the seriousness of what you're alleging.

I didn't allege. I said it was just a thought that was discussed or that was thought of because I was being constantly asked questions by Graham Diskin or by all sorts of people and officers. Did I know of what could have possibly happened to Bromwin?

When a loved one has been missing for years, speculation and sometimes unlikely theories about a final resting place are inevitable. As you heard in the previous episode and again just now, Andy Reid was suspicious during the inquest in two thousand and two that his sister had been dumped in nineteen ninety three in a concrete container used for the treatment of raw sewage. It's a horrible thought to even contemplate privately, let alone articulate in a hushed courtroom in front of

Did you think that it would have been the proper thing to do, before making a public allegation like that, to inquire as to whether or not the sewerage in fact is in Sandstone Crescent or whether there were septic tanks in Sandstone Cresent.

Well, there is septic tanks at Sandstone Crescent. Was when Bromwin lived there. I do also now know that the septic tanks are no longer used. You probably might be able to hit me with the right date, but I reckon that might have happened around ninety six or something like that.

Well, my instructions are that in nine to eighty three eighty three, eighty three.

John's lawyer brought Andy to the verbal dispute Jody had with Bromman on the Friday night.

And you're aware, aren't you? That Jody's recollection is that the disagreement arose because Bronwin was going to leave the children alone. That's right, isn't it?

Sorry, No, my recollection isn't that.

Craig Leger took Andy to a topic that he had already suggested to several witnesses. It was a clear strategy by John's lawyer to suggest broman was acting strangely just prior to her disappearance.

He put to Andy, if that, in fact was the topic of the discussion, and if it was in fact true that Bronwin was going out leaving the children at home, would that have been in or out of.

Character for Bromwin to leave the children on their own? Yes, Bromwin wouldn't have left the children on their own without prior arrangements for someone to be looking after them.

Putting that another way, it would have been quite out of character for the Bronwin that you know to have left the children alone on the night of Friday, fourteen May nineteen ninety three.

I don't see the relevance of whether the children were here or there, or what they were doing on Friday night.

No, whether you see the relevance or not with respect doesn't matter. You're here to answer the questions.

Mister reed. Mister legis right. I'll decide the relevance. You just answer questions.

Yes, I would say it's out of character.

Yes, out of character. Bronwin would have been behaving unusually in your view, if that had in fact happened. Just yes or no, we'll yes.

John's lawyer had another strategy to pursue under instructions, no doubt from John.

And you now know, don't you that about five months after you were born, your mother disappeared. You know that for a fact, now, don't you? Yes? Your mother subsequently reappeared in nineteen seventy five, didn't she.

Yes.

At no time in that ten year period did you hear from your mother. That's so, isn't it?

I personally here?

No, Now, let me ask you this Bronwin's work history. Can you remember a conversation with mister Winfield when you told mister Winfield what happened with Bronlin at the Commonwealth Bank?

Bromwin never worked at the Commonwealth Bank.

Are you aware of a period of time when Bronwin worked for a bank.

I'm quite sure she worked for Westpac on the corner of Bathist Street and George Street in town.

And you know the circumstances in which she left the bank, don't you tell his worship? I remind you that you're on oath.

The deputy State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was paying close attention.

When is this what year?

This is when Bronwin is on my instructions? Around the twenty years of age?

What before she met mister Winfield.

Yeah, just sit back and relax, mister reed, I'm writing the show here.

You just answer the questions.

Yes, it was prior to meeting mister Winfield.

Karl had a question for John's lawyer.

Is there I relevance to this?

There?

Maybe you say you do not have any understanding of why Bronwin left a job at the bank.

To the best of my knowledge, No, I don't know the exact reason of.

Why she I'm asking for exact reasons.

I don't know the reason she seized her employment with the bank. No, I don't. Sorry, I can't remember any exact reason of why she ceased that form of employed.

I'm not asking for exact reasons. Can you remember unusual circumstances?

No, I don't. No, I don't know.

Let me move onto something different. Can you remember when she worked from Mansours?

Andy replied, No, he didn't recall Bromwin working at Mansur's.

Or a Manchester shop. Can you remember her working at a Manchester shop?

No?

Sorry, I don't.

Can you remember any unusual circumstances in Bronwin's working life relating to her leaving the employee of organizations?

Can I remember any unusual circumstances? No, I can't.

John's lawyer moved on from the matter of Bromwin having left jobs in her early twenties.

Now the phone call of eight in May nineteen ninety three.

Just before we go any further, mister Leggett, are you going to take this matter any further or just leave it.

No, in light of the witnesses answers, No, I'm not well.

You realize that I placed absolutely no way to any inference that might be raised from that.

Yes, no, quite so, and I certainly wouldn't even think to make submissions based on the current state of the evidence.

Thank you.

The mystery phone call at the hair salon into Cuts where Jody worked, was the next subject for questioning by John's lawyer. You'll recall that Andy went to the salon after he'd heard about the phone call purportedly from Bronwyn saying she was never coming back, and he questioned someone there. Craig Leggett wanted Andy to talk about his visit and what he discovered that day.

The owner of the salon, according to my instructions, is one Michelle Flanagan. Does that ring a bell with you? Is that the person with whom you spoke or you just can't remember.

I went down to the salon. I sat outside the salon and waited for all the clientele to leave. Once the last client had left, when over and knocked on the door, introduced myself, told the lady who I was, and said that I have reason to believe that there was a phone call here today.

It was clear from speaking to that person that that person thought genuinely that a telephone call had been received from someone with a female voice.

Yes.

What was unclear to that person after you discussed it with her was whether the female voice actually belonged to Bronwin or not. Is that a fair summary?

Fair summary?

Yeah.

She couldn't say to me that it was one hundred percent Bromwin. She just said a voice said to her on the phone, this is Bromwin.

But what was not in doubt was the fact that a telephone call had been received. That's so, isn't it.

Yes, claiming that the person was Bromwin. I'm in Queensland. I'm not coming back.

Craig Leggett sat down matt fordham Rose again. He wanted to ask some follow up questions.

So, from your knowledge of Bronwin and her contact with Jody, would Bronwin have known what days Jody worked at the salon?

Yes?

And are you certain of that or is this something you're not quite sure about?

No, I'm positive I know that because I've had conversations with Bromwin, and Bromwin knew what day Jody's rostered day. Off was with the salon and all those sorts of things.

Can you think of any reason why Bronwyn would have wrung the salon knowing that Jody wasn't working that day.

No reason at all. And his wife Michelle walked up next. Matt Fordham raised again the topic of Bromwin having become pregnant and her distress over having had an abortion at the insistence of her husband John.

Well. Actually, I remember her saying to me that it was very stressful because John's really upset about his mum, and that she'd felt he was a lot of time obviously with her and at the hospital.

And she said to me, then if anything happened.

She was always really worried about Crystal, particularly not so much Lauren, that would we look after her if anything happened to her.

It is important to clarify something here. Michelle has told me that Bromwin loved her daughters equally. Michelle explained that Bromwin was more worried about Crystal because John was not Crystal's biological father, and Bromwin suspected that Cristel would not get the same opportunities from John as her little sister Lauren would receive. Bromwin wanted to ensure that the Reed family would step in to look after Crystal in the

Did she indicate to you any sort of plans for the future for her and the children?

As far as I knew they were out, they were staying out. I said, like, you know, are you sure you want to do this? Is this what you want? It's going to be a huge thing. And I actually asked her if there was any chance her and John could go to a marriage counselor, and she just went off a brain no way, I'm not there, no way, no, flatly no, Like I was just kind of okay, I won't suggest that again.

So from that, did it appear to you as though she'd made up her mind or that she was still making up.

Her Oh no, no way, she was going back, No way in the world.

You also say that you also remember Bronwin saying a comment something like everything will be okay, you'll understand in a few days.

Yeah.

Did you take those comments to mean anything?

That sort of took me aback.

I kind of didn't really know what she was getting at at all, And in hindsight, I suppose, knowing that she was going to a solicitor and that she was trying to get property settlement and custody of the children, that may have been what she meant that things would work out her way.

Did you ever discuss any other options available to Bronwin, such as her leaving the family completely, or going to stay with a male friend, or going to live in a commune somewhere, Any of those things ever come up in your discussions with Bromwin.

That Bromwin herself was going to do that?

Yes?

No, do you believe that it would have been an option that she would have entertained leaving the child?

Never? Never? Ever?

The police officer then took Michelle to her surprise meeting with John when he showed up on her front doorstep about four pm the day after Bromin's disappearance.

Do you remember what John's demeanor was at the time.

Yes.

John was shaky, and I'm sure of what he was saying. The first words that he said was Broman's left, and I kind of thought, oh, well, he's here with the two kids.

I got the shock of my life.

And the next thing, I sort of stepped outside and I said allo to the kids, and the kids were sort of shoot away so they couldn't hear anything. And then he kind of said, oh, Bromin's going on a break. It was like, that's what happened. She was going on a break. She needed a break.

Was there ever any discussion with John about the things that Browan may have taken from the house, such as a suitcase or a bag or both or anything.

I asked him what she took.

I was pretty surprised that Roman would just get up and go out the door. And then he said he didn't look. And I said to him, you didn't look. Your wife was walking out the front door, and you didn't look to see who she was going with. Or what she had, and he said no, Well I couldn't believe that either.

Michelle recalled asking John why he had left in such a hurry. That's when John produced the petrol receipt from Ballina. Matt Fordham asked Michelle if they had discussed any further John's sudden drive away from his home at Lennox Head.

Well, I'd said to him, because I ask a lot of questions. So I said to him, what time did Bromin leave? And he said, oh, I don't know about quarter past I passed in. I think that was what he told me originally, although that's not what keeps getting said the rest of the time. And I said to him, so you just packed up and left. And we were at this point, I think, getting things out of the car, like the boot of the car and trying to get the clothing for the kids.

And we walked back in the house and into my kitchen.

He fished out of his wallet a receipt which he showed me, and it had eleven o six was a petrol receipt. And I said, why did you leave in such a hurry?

You know?

It was like half an hour later he said.

He was getting petrol, and he said his reason was the kids travel better at nighttime.

The boot of the Ford Falcon car was clearly on Matt Fordham's mind. He must have been considering the possibility of Bromwin's body having been there. Michelle replied that she remembered seeing pillow cases stuffed with clothing and a small bag. She did not remember seeing any suitcase or heavy objects in the car or in the boot. When Michelle asked John what he had been up to that day and said, he mentioned that he needed to get the car registered as soon as he arrived.

Did he say that he'd been anywhere else in Sydney, Not that I remember. Did he indicate to you?

I know he had a job to go to.

There was some sort of job that he was working at, but I don't know if he.

Went there, And did he indicate to you when he arrived in Sydney.

He said he got there that morning, and.

Did he indicate whether it was early in the morning or in the late morning or anything like that.

Actually he did say he had to wait for the registration place to open, so I don't know what time, probably nine o'clock.

The police officer asked Michelle to talk about phone calls John Winfield made to her and the weeks after Browin went missing, John was seeking advice about how to care for the two girls.

Yes, I was at home with Mitchell. He was newborn, and I was home most of the time. Well, I was home all of the time, really, and John used to ring up, and I'd ring up there too and see how everyone was going. And yeah, he'd just asked little questions about lunches and John never really in the time that I've known Bromin and John, I've never known John.

To look after the kids.

When I first met him, he worked a gabo's run in the morning and then went to do bricklaying. He was never there, so he was asking me lots of questions about the kids and things.

Over the years. Have you ever known Bronwin to leave the children for a period of time, to go away somewhere, or to leave him in someone else's care for a period of time.

No, she was always with the kids always.

I don't know whether you know the answer to this or not. But in nineteen ninety three, do you know how much Bronwin would have weighed?

She was tall and thin, fifty kilos something like that.

Then there was the recounting of a conversation Michelle had with Jody shortly after the birth of Michelle's son, Mitchell in late March nineteen ninety three. Michelle wanted to know about her sister in law Bromwin's relationship with John. She asked Jody if Bromwin and John argued a lot. Michelle recalled Jody telling her that Jody had witnessed John picked Bromwin up while Bromwin was sitting in a chair. He held the chair with her in it in the air,

There's the discussion about the clothes that have been arranged for the children. Were you able to determine then what the source of those clothes was.

He said that when he got home, or when he got up there and packed because Rominham moved in, there were I don't know, boxes or crates or something, but anyway, there were things there, so the clothes weren't obviously probably back in the cupboards and things like that. I can remember him saying that he'd gone to his ex wife to get clothes for Lauren, and I assume she must have had a child there that was about the same

John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, started with the Saturday night May fifteen, nineteen ninety three, Bromwan had been to a work party with people from Eden's Takeaway.

Missus reed if Bronwin had left the children alone on the night of Saturday, fifteen May nineteen ninety three, would that have been in or out of character?

Out of character?

I would think it would have been unusual behavior.

I think it would be unusual behavior.

In fact, Bromwin had arranged for the daughter of a neighbor to babysit the girls that night. Bromwn had made written notes about this, including the name and phone number of that neighbor, Virginia Bevers, but for some reason this was not followed up in Glenn Taylor's investigation in nineteen ninety eight, and therefore it was not part of the

I saw her the night before she went missing.

My phone numbers written there.

It actually said Saturday night, Virginia phone number, et cetera.

Our oldest daughter was a babysitter or her the night before she went Listen. He was a lovely lady.

She'd loved the kids.

John's lawyer asked about the chair dropping incident, the one that Jody had recounted to Michelle in March nineteen ninety three.

No, she didn't put a date on it.

Missus reed, don't jump the gun. Listen to the question.

Please, Well, I know what he's asking me.

Well I don't.

You must be able to read a mind.

He wants to know when it happened. I don't. Wasn't given a specific.

Date, Missus reed.

Missus reed.

Please, I know that this is in amotive case and everybody wants to assist the court, but you're not assisting.

Listen to me.

You're not assisting yourself if you're going to jump in and start answering questions before you give mister legg at the courtesy of asking the question. Okay, this is not one hundred meters sprint. We've got all week, and for that matter, it's been nine years since Bronwin went missing. There's no need to rush your evidence. Now take your time, think about the questions you're being asked, and think and consider your answer.

Thank you your worship and Michelle's recollection of Bromwin shortly before her disappearance, having said words to the effect, if anything happens to me, would you please look after Crystal was on John's lawyer's mind.

Had that topic, that is, something potentially happening to Bronwin and Crystal being looked after by you? Had that ever been raised by Bronwin prior to that.

In July of nineteen ninety one.

So sometime just after that, we had a phone call to our house and Bromwin was upset and she was talking about wanting to leave, and the talk was her coming back to Sydney, and at that stage she was kind of hinting at staying with us, but we at that point lived in a small home and we really didn't have a lot of room. And I said to her that she was going to come back and live or wanted to move back, that I'd help her try

She'd said that on more than one occasion.

Paragraph fourteen of your statement, it's the conversation with Bronwin where she says words to the effect everything will be okay. You'll understand in a few days. Yes, that statement occurred in the last conversation that you ever had with Bronwin. Is that right?

That conversation happened just prior to her disappearing, like just in the day's prior.

It struck you as an unusual thing to be said, did it at the time?

It is just a comment. I couldn't put it into context, so.

I understand now, Sergeant Detective Sergeant Discan makes this entry on three June ninety ninety three at two pm. On three June ninety ninety three, I had a long conversation with sister in law Bronwin, Michelle Reid zero two five four seven five eight zero. Now is that your phone number? Yes, in nineteen ninety three. Yes, she is very concerned about the missing person.

Can you tell me that date again.

Third of June nineteen ninety three. Okay, So, as at three June you would have been very concerned about Bronwin, would you.

Well, she just spit on sixteenth and May and what day again, the third of June.

The third of June, I think it was twenty seven may was it that the missing person's noticed when it was formally lodged?

I don't know.

And you would have said that to Detective Sergeant Discott, wouldn't.

She we're concerned about her?

Yeah?

I would have said that more likely than not.

What else did I say?

He says? Stated, this is you? Yeah, stated that the actions of the missing person are identical of what her mother did. Now did you say that?

Say that again?

I read it to you.

It's hard to I know what you mean, but no, just read it.

And I'm reading it word for word. Yeah, the actions of the MP, Yeah, are identical of what her mother did. Then, now, just pausing there, if you could hold that in your mind.

Yeah.

It then goes on and says the MP and her sister and brother.

The MP and her sister and brother.

Person.

I've got no recollection of that conversation.

Let's just do it step by step.

Yep.

Can you recall at some stage talking to Detective Sergeant Discan about bron Wan's mother's disappearance? Just a yes or no. We'll get us there to start with.

I honestly cannot recall talking to him about anything to do with Bromman's mother's disappearance.

You can't recall one way or the other. No, So you may have said it, but you can't recall saying anything about it.

I know that John was suggesting.

It, ma'am. Just deal with my question, but I don't know. So what you seem to be saying is you may well have talked to Detective Sergeant Discan about Bromlin's mother, but you're just not sure one way or the other.

I don't see what Bromlan's mother has anything to do with it.

To be honest with.

You, well you might not, but if you'd be kind enough just to answer the question.

Well, I'm trying to, but I can't understand why I would say it when I don't.

Know, missus reed, I don't remember saying it.

The deputy State Coroner spoke up to try to explain to Michelle why she would be better off answering the questions rather than analyzing the relevance of the questions.

You may not understand the nature of the questioning. Mister Leggatt has got reports in front of him, prepared by Detective Sergeant Discan, and obviously in this investigation, we've got to look at everything, including what Detective sergeant Discan wrote down in June, which was very close to the date when Bronwin disappeared.

I don't remember the conversation now.

The notes that Detective Sergeant discin are purported to be notes of a summary of a conversation he had with you. All mister Leggot is asking you now is do you recall that conversation and do you recall saying things? The detective Sergeant Discan has made a note of no. A lot of the questions you can answer with a yes or a no answer. You don't have to comment as to its relevance. That's for me to decide.

Okay.

The detective sergeant goes on doing conversation. The MP missing person informed her that she was involved in a relationship with a solicitor with a name similar to Copenhagen. Can you remember something like that being the topic of a discussion We.

Talked about Broman going to a solicitor.

Does that name ring any bells?

No, not a.

I don't remember the part about the relationship, but the talking about Bromwin seeing a solicitor.

Yeah, that may have been talked about. I do remember that.

Does the name Copenhagen ring a Bell.

The name Copenhagen.

I remember somebody, and it may have been Kim talking to us, and Kim is Andrew's house sister, and she had talked about, well, talk to Bromwin, and she had seen and spoken about going to see a solicitor. And I couldn't remember the name. And that name just just a funny sounding name. I remember that because it was unusual.

So who was the solicitor with a name like Copenhagen. I believe that the man was, in fact Graham Holland, and that somehow, in the way that it's been related to Detective Discan, Copenhagen, which is the capital city of Denmark, has been conflated with nearby Holland, more commonly known as the Netherlands. In episode five, you heard this excerpt from one of Detective Discin's running sheets.

On June tenth, interviewed solicitor Graham Holland of Byron Bay states that he had been consulted by the missing person on May four regarding dissolution of marriage, property settlement, and custody of the two girls, which was to take priority. The missing person was in fear of returning to the family home if the husband should return from Sydney whilst

Nobody, however, has suggested to me that Graham Holland was in any personal relationship with Bromwin.

Had you heard the name Pendragon mentioned by Bronwann or anyone in the course of this.

No, that doesn't really mean anything.

The name of a clairvoyant Pendragon, not Pendragon. I've got another topic. When he looked inside the boot of the car, there could well have been an LPG cylinder in the back. You just don't remember one way or the other. Is that fair comment?

Yep, your worship.

I'm instructed to state for the record that the vehicles purchased from Byron Bay Taxis and on my instructions there was a seventy liter LPG cylinder in the rear of the car when he purchased it. Subsequently, Thank you, your worship, Thank you, missus reed.

The evidence of Gary Jackson, otherwise known as Jacko, was relatively short. Jacko and Bromwin were clearly very fond of each other. They might i have ended up in a relationship if Bromwin had not disappeared. Matt Fordham asked Jacko about that relationship.

And Sir, just a couple of matters. In your statement, you described that you befriended Bronwin in the weeks before she disappeared in nineteen ninety three. Is that correct?

That's true?

And then she gave you the impression that she was keen on a relationship with you. Is that correct?

That's true?

And sir, you say in your statement that Bromwin disclosed to you that mister Winfield used to sit in a car outside her flat watching her flat. Is that correct?

That's true?

Yeah, sir, do you remember how long before she went missing she told you this?

Jacko responded that it would have been about four to eight weeks before she went missing, and he mentioned that he had left Lennox Head three to four weeks before Bromwin disappeared. Matt Fordham produced a letter that Gary Jackson had written to Bromwin. It had a date stamp of April twenty nine, nineteen ninety three, and the location was listed as well christ Church, New Zealand.

So it's clear, sir, that you've arrived in christ Church in late April nineteen ninety three. Is that correct?

Yes.

Jacko had told Glen Taylor in nineteen ninety eight that Broman was concerned about John having been harassing her on the phone. Jacko had said that he had only visited Bromwin at her Byron Street flat during daylight hours, perhaps three or four times. Jacko was alive to the possibility that he could become embroiled in their divorce proceedings. That's what he had told Glen Taylor.

Did you ever see mister Winfield sitting outside her flat or were you ever present when any of those phone calls were received by Bromwin.

No?

I was never there when a phone call was received.

I did.

Broman did point to me one day that John was parked out there.

The car was there.

You could see the car. It was a white Falcon with a taxi ariel in the center of the roof. It was pretty obvious. I knew the car from around town. The phone was disconnected from the wall on several occasions, so as the phone calls couldn't be made in.

When you say the phone was disconnected from the wall, that is at the flat and Byron Street. Is that correct?

The flat and Byron Street.

And did it appear to you as though the phone had simply been moved out of the socket and taken off the wall, or had it been ripped out? Or how did it appear to you?

It seemed to me like it had been removed from the wall at the socket at the wall.

John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, got up.

Now, is it the case that Bronlin, when you were in her company from time to time, pointed to a vehicle and said John is in that vehicle?

No?

Or did you were you actually able to see him inside? There was only one incident, only one. Yeah, I don't know if you know the residence that Brown was in. It's alongside the Ampholse service station. There's a fence there and it's pretty well surrounded. You used to come through the back entrance and if you look down the driveway you could see the car park across the street. There was only the one time, but it was pointed out to me on the one time that I remember what

The inquest heard next from Donald Apps.

And so is it the case that you live in Lennox Head and have done so for more than twenty years? Is that correct?

That's correct?

And is it the case that around nineteen eighty nine or nineteen ninety you met John Winfield?

Yep?

Is it the case that you were assisting him when he was building his house at Sandstone Crescent, Atlantics Head.

I give him a hand for a small while that me back wouldn't put up with it. I was very disappointed that I wasn't able to help him with it more.

And so this address in Sandstone Crescent, it's a different block, is that right.

That's where I first met John. Yeah, at the other.

Place, because his particular work was very neat, as one bricklayer to another.

And is it the case that you're aware that mister Winfield's marriage unfortunately failed and the house which had been begun in Sandstone Crescence, Yeah, was eventually sold in complete. Is that correct?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

So in your statement you described that John Winfield has quite a possessive nature towards Bronwin, and that he was fairly dominant and liked to make the decisions. Were there any particular incidents that you can indicate to us led you to that conclusion.

There's one. It's only really a one time. It was persistent, if you call it. That was they were having an argument out in front there about some matter, and it went on for about three hours. And I stayed in the room because well, I hope they get rid of their problems. It was Bronwan came back into the house and I was just making a cup of tea and she came down and said that she wanted some money to go on to a wedding.

I think it might have been a brother's wedding.

Is this a wedding in Lennox Head or down in Sydney?

No, No, the one in Sydney. I think it was a wedding.

And he didn't want to give her the money, like you know.

Because obviously, after all his problems, I thought it he'd be very short of money actually, and I didn't know how he could manage the way he did.

And did you see any violence between John and Bronwin?

No violence between them. No.

And you say that after the house was completed and that John and Bronwin moved into it. You went and visited them in that house a few times? Is that correct?

Yeah?

John maintained a very clean and clinical type house. I thought it was sort of congucive with his bricklaying work. He was always very neat and tidy.

And was this a trait that was normally exercised by John or by Bronwin or by both of them equally?

I'd say the neatness would be by John. Yeah.

I think Bromlin's house where I don't think she'm be too fussy about work.

Did you ever see mister Winfield get angry about the standard of the housework?

Not really, nay.

Matt Fordham asked Donald b Apps about a part of his nineteen ninety eight statement in which Donald had said he found it unbelievable that Bromwin would cease all contact with her two girls.

Were there any particular incidents or events that you saw that would lead you to that conclusion.

Well, Bromlin was always pretty meticulous about the way she is to dress them, and also you could tell by her in the bathroom, shampoo and things of that nature. They were very well looked after nice and clean and tidy, Sir.

The last paragraph of your statement, you described, Sir, that you remember Bronwin telling you once that John could become violent, and that you say that Bronwin said to you that John had got very angry once with a young man who had apparently had a relationship with his eldest daughter, and that he pulled a paling off the fence and was going to hit the bloke with it. Do you recall that conversation with Bromwin, Yeah, he got angry.

I don't know whether it was at himself or whether it was Bromwin, or whether it was the young man or not.

And so you also recount in your statements that you had heard that on one occasion, John was supposed to have smashed a fellow's windscreen with a rock after he'd interfered with him while he was surfing at Lennox Head, and you say that you think that it may have been Wayne Lazarus that had told you that.

Yeah.

To these observations, do they surprise you about John or do they accord with your knowledge of John Winfield?

Well, I think anybody smashing his windscreen would be a surprise to anybody there's a lot of things happen in the surf rage. There's some people with the laws of surfing fraternity that certain things are not allowed to be done.

John's lawyer asked Donald Apps about a conversation that he had with another man, Wayne Lazarus, about John's purported surf rage.

In the last few days, You've spoken to Wayne Lazarus, haven't you. Yeah, And you checked with him as to whether he told you the story about John and a rock and some surf rage. And Wayne told you he didn't.

He can't remember, he.

Said, he said it wasn't him who told you.

He just said he just couldn't remember.

One of Broman's good friends in Lennox Head, was the last witness on what had been an exhausting and long day of evidence. I'm not going to disclose her full name because she has asked for anonymity. We've called her Joan when I've interviewed her. In early episodes of the Bromwin podcast series, Joan was asked by Matt Forden about a conversation that Joan had with Bromwin about her marriage problems with John. She remembered Bromwin telling her about a

And when Bronwin was telling you about this conversation that she'd overheard between John and his father, did she say whether she'd had any plans for the future or anything that she was intending to do.

Yeah, she was intending to move out.

And at one stage she had told me that he had offered her and I don't remember the amount, it was either five thousand or ten thousand, and he offered her that much to call it quits. And I said, what you mean, that's it no more? And she said yes, And I said I wouldn't be accepting that, and she said, no, I don't intend to one day when he's out, I'll get the place valued because there was no mortgage on it. And she said she'd have to get one of the

And so Bromin's gone out and had the house at Sandstone Crescent failure. Is that correct?

Yes?

Did you know how long before Bromwin disappeared that that occurred.

It was before she moved out. I think before she moved out of the house into the unit.

Joan repeated that Bromwyn expressed concern about having custody of the children.

Did you get the impression that Bromwin what was the order of priorities for Bronwin? Was it her children first and then the house second, and then the other things later on? Or was it different her children?

Bronwin always loved children. When I had my youngest daughter, I had her on a Friday. Bromwin was my first visit to the hospital on Saturday morning. She didn't just bring me a present and the baby a present. She brought my other daughter a present, And I just don't believe that somebody who thinks about kids feelings like that, would walk out on her own.

According to Joan, Bromwin had told her that John said he would kill her if she ever bad mouthed him around town. That was the allegation.

Do you remember that conversation.

Yes, it may have been the same day she was telling me about the abortion. I'm not sure what day it was, but it was at my home and she said that he had said to her, if you ever bad mailed me around town, I'll kill.

You, ma'am. During your discussions with bron One in the days and weeks before she disappeared, was it ever suggested to you by her that she would leave and go away, or go and live with a commune, or leave her children in any way.

No, I can't even imagine Bronwin walking down the street in the littlone living there. She never indicated going away. When I spoke to her that morning that Sunday morning, she said to me, like when she'd moved into the house, that she found out one of the doors was actually an interior door and not an exterior door, that she'd have to get it fixed, and she said to me, you'll have to show me how to mow the grass. So she obviously wasn't planning on going away. She never mentioned going.

When John's lawyer stood up, he repeated his now well worn strategy of asking about Bromin's disclosures about her view to the tarot card reader and clairvoyant Pendragon in nineteen ninety three. Joan had attended one of those visits with Bromwin, but she could not recall much about it. Craig Leggert put a now familiar question to her.

If Bromwin had left the children alone in nineteen ninety three in May of nineteen ninety three, without a babysitter at night, would you have considered that to be quite an unusual action for her?

John's lawyer appeared to be developing an argument that Bromwin's behavior in the days leading up to her disappearance was strange or unusual. Joan agreed that she could not imagine Bromwin leaving the children alone unsupervised. Craig Legat tried to press the point further, so if.

She had done that, it would be just incredibly unusual behavior. Bizarre behavior for her, you think.

Joan responded, well, I don't know about bizarre, but it would definitely be out of character for her, because, like I said, she thought so much about kid's welfare. Like I said, mine she brought my three year old at present when I had my baby. You know, she thought of kid's feelings.

Finally, Craig Legott asked Joan if she ever had a conversation with Bromwin about Broman's mother, but Joan couldn't recall any details. Day two was almost at an end.

Your worship just before we rise. Would it assist you to hear from Detective Sergeant Discott. We've heard evidence that he's gone on a period of six months leave or so. We don't know when that started, whether it coincided with the start.

Of this hearing.

We don't know whether he's just not able to do police duties, or whether he can sit in the witness box and give evidence, or perhaps whether you would even go to him if he's otherwise incapacitated.

I don't know. Perhaps Sergeant Taylor might need to look at that. Yes, I mean, ideally it would have been good to have Sergeant Discott. He was the first one involved in this matter.

Yes, indeed, yes, particularly given the conflict between some of the witnesses and what's recorded.

Matt Fordham shed some light on this. He had learned from Glenn Taylor that Sergeant Graham Diskin was off work and unable to attend court. Matt Fordham went on to say that he had asked Glenn Taylor to find Graham Discin's running sheets and documents, which he said should have already been made available at the start of the inquest.

All right, but I think perhaps there should be something official put on the record. And Sergeant Diskin is a material witness, I mean he commenced the investigation. I think I need to see some certification that he's actively unable to attend court, the same as any civilian witness would have to satisfy me if they were appearing in coronial or criminal matters that they can't attend and give evidence because of sickness or some other reason.

John's lawyer raised a fair point, and he had alleged earlier in the day that Graham Diskin's investigation was incompetent. Craig Leggett pointed out that it was only fair for these comments to be put to Graham Diskin, and if he could not come to court, then it was appropriate for the coroner to be supplied with an independent statement of this. Karl Milavanovitch agreed. Before we conclude this episode, let's return to the question of Illawong. You heard the

What do we do here?

Well, for me, I think it's a no brainer that at this stage we should wait and leave things to the police and the coroner. First of all, we haven't received a refusal from the coroner to Andy's request. What the coroner seems to have said is that you'll consider the application, but wants to make an informed decision and

Well.

I think where this all leaves us is that it doesn't preclude us from rethinking our position down the track. If there were really extensive delays and Andy wasn't given a reasonable explanation about the delays, or if the coroner ultimately refused Andy's application and refused to grant the order. Then we could rethink our position. What we ultimately want

The risk is that we would find Romin's remains and then we'd find ourselves in a really difficult situation because we would have this highly incriminating evidence but being potentially accused of disturbing a crime scene.

I think we need to give the police a good chance to undertake these searches as thoroughly and comprehensively as they can. We should only get involved at this site if that's the last resort, because the police and the coroner won't act well.

That all makes perfect sense. Okay, so mate, this now is being recorded.

Yep.

You've received a response which is basically saying there is an active police investigation and at the end of that.

A decision will be made upon the completion of the current running investigation.

This is an investigation that had been basically abandoned.

It correct in May. They didn't form me and Michelle that they finished their review, they didn't find any extenuating circumstances that they presumed that they could conduct any further investigations upon, and basically left it at that and said that unless some new information came to light, they couldn't do anything for us at that stage.

And then the brom Win podcast series started in May twenty twenty four soon after that, and new information started coming forward.

And here we are.

They've restarted their investigation behind the scenes. They don't talk directly to us about what they're doing, but we're aware that things are happening. It's just that we don't really have a bead on what it is and where it's going.

They don't want to disclose anything.

We could go up to the owners of that house in Illowong. We could tell them everything we presume and suspect. We could ask them for permission to use drills and other equipment to try to determine if anything suspicious is beneath the garage and patio slab.

Where do you see it? On?

Where we go from here?

Admittedly I am frustrated at the slow pace. I would like to think that we're at least now heading in the right direction. With the new information that's come to light, it should only be a matter of a couple of months to complete the few things that they possibly think they need to do. We should know what their point of view is and where they're heading with a search of.

Dan Williams earlier, and he cautioned fairly persuasively against us going up to the site and proceeding with a dig and excavation. In his view, we really should leave that to the police and the coroner, even though it's a bit of a gamble as to whether they're going to even do that.

Before we actually went there and found something, or skinned showed something, or a dog reacted, we'd obviously have to hand the sight over to them. Anyway, we will see how they progress over the next day, eight weeks or so, and maybe regroup then and see where we're at.

It'll be thirty two years in May. You're taking a bit of a leap of faith in saying no, let's leave it to the same people who we've felt let down by it for three decades.

I don't think we have a choice they do it. You've got to push your faith in these organizations to do their due diligence. It's my numbing name mind Drew Headley. It's my numbing that they've got exactly the same documentation or more documentation than what we have. Their review was done. They spent several months doing it with several different people because people were coming and going and leaving and whatnot.

It was really close to the release of the first episode in the Bromlin series.

The police were done, they were finished.

They exhausted all angles on the information that they had. That's when we were told there was nothing that they could really do.

You have to take some comfort from the fact that, notwithstanding what they told you in May twenty four, almost a year ago, here we are and they have a reactivated, ongoing live investigation that they have clearly restarted, having told you it was done, dusted over correct.

We can only just keep hoping that if iinally doing some due diligence and we're going to get somewhere.

What I'm hearing from you is you want us to basically leave it to the police and the state coroner in relation to any search subterranean search of that property in Illawan where John was working, which we suspect could possibly be holding Bromin's remains.

Yeah, correct, correct, err on the side of caution and let it unfold how it runs.

Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case, please contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au. You can read more about this case and see a range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

Our voice actors.

There are some big parts here.

They're not easy to do. We are grateful to everyone who has lent their voice, and particularly for the time consuming reconstructions of the inquest evidence. Outside the Reed family, there's John ty Burton as the police officer, Matt Fordham, Dan Sanke as the coroner, Dan Williams as Craig Leggett, and Glenn Taylor as himself, the then detective sergeant in Ballina Police.

Thank you.

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