Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you by me Headley Thomas and the Australian. Glenn Taylor spent most of the first day of the inquest reading aloud a lengthy summary of his investigation into Bromwan's disappearance.
Matt Fordham, the police sergeant assisting the coroner Karl Milavanovich, had questions for Glenn, and then it would be John's lawyer, Craig legates turn to question the detective who had all but named John as an alleged killer. Matt Fordham started with easy questions to set the scene.
Sir, is it the case that when you attended the premises at sixty Sandstone Crescent at Lennox Head, a number of photographs were taken of those premises? Is that correct?
That's correct?
And so the second photograph in the sequence that you've got in front of you, would you agree that it depicts a view inside the house where there are a number of photographs visible, firstly on the wall facing the photographer and secondly on the wall to the left hand side of the photographer. Yes, that's correct, and that the photographs that are on the walls, in particular in the hallway of the premises, they appear to be the large
college style photographs. Is that correct? That's correct, and that each of those three collages would appear to contain anywhere from twenty to fifty photographs in each frame.
Would you agree with.
That that's correct?
So when you examined the premises, did you see any photographs of missus Bromwin Winfield in any of those photographs?
There was not a single photograph anywhere to be found of Bromwyn Winfield in that house.
Could you indicate to us whose photographs you did see in those photo frames.
There's a number of children, Crystal, Lauren, and Jady. I recall there's some family photographs of mister Winfield with the children. I didn't see any of the missing person. I even commented at the.
Tong Michelle and Andy Reid told me something about this when they were describing an impromptu visit to the Sandstone Crescent House in nineteen ninety eight.
He's a reminder from episode ten.
Even though we were suspicious, and or had boone suspicious, we just wanted to see the kids and.
We just thought, let's just do it. Romlin was white.
There was not one photo of their mother. There were photos of the kids and other family photos, but there was not one picture of their mom.
Go on.
I couldn't believe it.
I just thought, why are two kids being raised in the manner that they're being forced to forget their mother? It was quite daunting just to think that not one thing was left in the house that had any full memory of their mum.
And so is it the case that before today you made some inquiries with respect to Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin.
Yes I did.
And is it the case that you were informed that he was unfortunately too unwell to attend court or indeed participate in any work in relation to this matter? Is that correct?
Yes, he's off in the care of his doctor. He has a doctor's certificate current to November this year that is unfit your can work or give evidence.
So, from your experience of life generally, are you able to indicate to the court whether it's possible to drive from Ballina to Sydney without stopping by using just a normal Ford Falcon petrol tank full of petrol or would it require both petrol and gas to make the journey I.
Would say it most definitely would have required both gas and fuel to get that distance. It would be some eight hundred and forty eight hundred and fifty kilometers, so it would be very doubtful whether a car could get there on one tank of ordinary fuel.
Some of those present recalled that there was a tension in the courtroom over an unexpected turn of events. On the first morning, outside court, John's daughter Jody had turned up and breezily toed a few of those present, including Andy Reid, that his sister Bromwin was apparently alive and well and living up the road in the hippie community of Nimben. Jody's suggestions that Bromwin had been seen about forty kilometers north of where an inquest was inquiring into
her presumed deaths stunned Bromwin's friends and family members. Most were deeply skeptical. Here's Bromwin's neighbor and confidante, Deb Hall.
I recall being at the courthouse in the morning. We're all outside the court. It hadn't gone in as yet, and Jody, I think, was the one that was talking amongst people that she got a message to say that Bromwin had been sighted or seen in Nimben. To me, it seemed not really credible, but that was something that was being bandied around before we actually went into the court. I thought, why would you bring that up? Why is
that happening right this minute? What didn't they ring all let them know before this?
Jody went to the police officers Glen Taylor and Matt Fordham in the morning to report this crucial new information. She told them that she had received a phone call around eight thirty am that morning from a woman called Kayleen. Jody handed Glenn and Matt a piece of paper with notes that she'd made during the phone call with Kayleen.
The note states, Joan says she's out nimb and weh they know and Joan lives in Sydney.
Glenn and Matt had important questions. This disclosure from Jody needed to be investigated as a.
Matter of priority.
Jody seemed to believe that it was true and it could change everything. But if not true, why was Jody pressing it and who is Kayleen? Kayleen's friend Joanne Guthrie was the purported source of the remarkable version which Jody was talking about. Could Joanne confirm that Bromwin was in fact alive and living somewhere out nimben Wey. Glenn worked through the lunchtime adjournment. On day one, he telephoned joe Aanne Guthrie, a woman he had spoken to three years prior,
as part of his investigation. Joanne had been one of Bromwin's good friends from their teenage years in the shire, and Bromwin was bridesmaid at Joanne's wedding when she married Craig Guthrie. And Craig Guthrie was the brother of Mark Guthrie, the man with whom Bromwin had a relationship. You've heard in a previous episode that Mark Guthrie believed mistakenly for
years that he was Crystal's father. On the afternoon of day one, Matt Fordham asked Glenn about the unusual events which had been unfolding in the background throughout the day.
And sir, is it the case that you've made some inquiries in relation to a conversation that you had during the morning to your adjournment with Jody Maine. Firstly, it was said to you by miss Main that she'd received a phone call at eight thirty this morning.
Yes, she said that she received a phone call about eight point thirty from a female named Kayleen.
And did she say to you what Kaylen said to her on the phone this morning, Well.
Not exactly the words, but words to the effect of Kayleen had received information from a joe Ane Guthrie alleging that the missing person brom and Winfield, was living in Nimbu.
And so is it the case that over the Luncheon adjournment you've made some inquiries with Joanne Guthrie? Is that correct?
I made a phone call spoke to Joeanne Guthrie on the telephone. Joanne Guthrie was actually surprised with me contacting her because we hadn't spoken to her for some years. She states that at no stage has she ever said anything to Kayleen that bromwin was living at mendone. She supplied me with a last name of Kayleen, being Kayleen Jones.
And after court.
Finishes today, I've got to ring her back and try to find out the current phone number for this Kayleen and try to shed some more light on it.
And Sir, is that a matter that you'd like to give some further evidence about at a later stage in this inquest? Is that direct?
Yes, Kayleen Jones has not featured in this podcast series until now. As one of Bromwin's oldest friends from her teenage and young adult years, Kayleen remembers the willowy girl from the Shire fondly. She recalls speaking with Jody in a telephone conversation on the morning of the first day of the inquest, but Kayleen's version of what Jody said is quite different to Jody's version of what was said
during that phone and call. Both Kayleen and Jody were called to give evidence on day two about this unusual turn of events, You're going to hear much more about it in the next episode.
Late on the.
First day, it was the lawyer Craig Legate's turn to grill the police detective Glenn Taylor. Craig put his best foot forward for his client, John Winfield, who everybody knew was being implicated as Bromwin's likely killer. The lawyer began by zeroing in on the suggestion that John had told witnesses words to the effect of, I've already lost two houses.
Before, and I'm not going to lose another.
One, Sergeant. It seems to be an important part of your case theory that the two former wives got the two houses and mister Winfield was going to ensure that that never happened again. That was part of your thinking process, isn't it.
Well, When I say it's part of it, it's part of our investigation process, I mean well, interview possibly anyone and everyone that could thought of shedding any knowledge on this inquiry.
It's one of the factors. It's one of the reasons that you give, isn't it for coming to your conclusion?
Well, in certain evidence of tendency, evidence in relation to domestic situations in mister Winfield's previous relationships.
And the tendency you say is because he'd lost houses to two wives, he was not going to lose this third house. That's your process of thinking, isn't it.
We have been referring to John's second wife in this podcast investigation as D and that's been deliberate. She asked for that kind of anonymity. We have decided to refer to her as D in these reconstructed exchanges in the Lismore courtroom.
Well, the evidence that he wasn't going to lose the house on this occasion was provided by other witnesses. He wasn't provided by me and then other people have suggested that to me, I only carry that forward. Certainly D indicated that she went through a difficult property settlement.
Have you looked carefully? I asked, with respect at D's record of interview. Her statement yes, her statement yes, And it's apparent from that, isn't it that D did not end up with the house? Didn't that become apparent to you in reading it?
She had difficultly, she had to get a sorcerer.
Well, just address my question, if you'd be kind enough.
I have to go over the statement again.
But well, let's do it. Let me take you to it.
I know from memory that she said that she had difficulties getting her share of the property settlement.
And did you explore with D the fact she didn't end up with the house following the property settlement?
My recollection was that she told me that she had difficulties getting her share. I believe she definitely got some things from the settlement. I'm not sure exactly what she got. She certainly had difficulties, allegedly due to mister Winfield's reluctance to provide her with a fair settlement.
I spoke to DE about the difficulties that she experienced. He's a reminder from episode three. And then you say John was quite bitter about the settlement following our separation.
Yeah, because he had to sell the house.
We separated, so then I had to go for settlement.
And I've always been a saber and.
I had money, And what I put into the house is only what I took out. I wasn't taking more than what I actually put in.
You say John didn't want to give me anything, No, well, how would that have worked out?
No?
Well, that's why I had to go.
I went to court to get a settlement.
I had to get a solicitor and go to court to get my share of the property.
Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of out in court.
Now, similarly, in relation to the first wife, Jennifer Mason, you're aware that Jennifer Mason didn't end up with the house following the property settlement as well, aren't you.
There's quite a lot in Missus Mason's statement. I'm not sure where it talked about settlement in there. Well, see I know that they said about building a home.
If it's a case that neither Missus Mason, the first wife, or d the second wife ended up with the house. That just blows apart your theory of this being the third woman in a row to get a house.
Well, as I said, there's no theory. This is what allegedly mister Winfield has told other witnesses who were able to give evidence in this inquiry, that he said, where's the effect. I've already lost two houses. I'm not going to lose another one. These are words that mister Winfield allegedly said to other witnesses. All Right, I just produce what I'm told by the witnesses.
Next, Craig Leggett turned to the crucial evidence of Bromwin's neighbor Murray Nolan. Murray told Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight that on the night Bromwin disappeared, he was watching TV in his living room before eleven PM and he heard the Winfield family car roll down the driveway. He got up and looked out and he saw the car with engine and lights off, scrape the bottom of the driveway where it met the road, then back out and
rolled down Sandstone Crescent. At the bottom of the street, Murray observed the engine and lights of the car turn on. And this evidence raises a point which Craig Leggett wanted to explore with the detective if all of that's true, why didn't Murray come forward in nineteen ninety three, five years before he disclosed it to Glenn Taylor.
Let me go onto something else. Mister Nolan, the next door neighbor who reported the car movements on sixteen May, was interviewed by Detective Sergeant Discan in that two month interview period immediately after sixteen May. Wasn't he?
I know he was spoken to it?
And can I suggest to you that mister Nolan in those interviews with Detective Sergeant Discan didn't say anything about the lights not being on or the car being treated in any unusual fashion. And can I just finish the question this way, because I suggest to you, I suggest to you that mister Nolan must not have reported that to Detective Sergeant Discan, or Detective Sergeant Discan would have
raised that with John Winfield. And from your analysis of Detective Sergeant Discin's no, it's evidence that that line of inquiry was pursued with mister Winfield. Do you understand the question.
First of all, the best person really asked would be mister Nolan.
Or Detective Sergeant Discan, and you're not going to make him available, as I understand.
Well, it's not that I'm not going to make him available. His doctor says he can't be evolable. Yes, but mister Nolan is certainly going to be called, so he will be available. I'm sure you'll be able to canvas that with him.
Well, just using your experience as an experienced police officer.
I believe the inquiry, certainly in its early stages in nineteen ninety three, was looked upon as a missing person inquiry, and there was no typewritten statements taken from neighbors and other potential witnesses.
That's the very point I suggest to you, Detective Sergeant, that if mister Nolan had said to Detective Sergeant Discan, look what I saw two days ago. Well, however long ago, it was fairly fresh in his mind. Look, Detective Sergeant Discan, the lights were off, the car was being driven down the driveway in a very unusual fashion. If that had been suggested, it wouldn't have been simply a missing person investigation, would it.
As I said, I think mister Nolan is the best person to ask about that. Whether he did tell Detective Sergeant disc and that information. Certainly I didn't see it recorded in any of the running shirts.
Indeed, indeed, and mister Nolan was next interviewed some five and a half years after the event, wasn't he.
In a statement not long after we commence the reinvestigation because we were approached to have a fresh look at the investigation, That's what we did.
I understand. But there seemed to be two objective facts that Detective Sergeant Discan spoke to mister Nolan while events were still fresh in mister Nolan's memory in journe July of nineteen ninety three, and then ove and a half years later, mister Nolan is interviewed again and he appears to say something that was inconsistent.
But I honestly cannot answer your question properly because I don't know if mister Nolan told Detective Sergeant Discan that information or not.
All right, just one last question before I leave that topic. It beggars belief. I suggest to you, as a professional policeman, that if Detective Sergeant Discan had been told by mister Nolan back in nineteen ninety three that the lights were off and that the car was acting in an unusual manner in the way it was being driven down the driveway, that detective Sergeant Discan wouldn't have pursued that with both mister Nolan and with mister Winfield.
I simply said, it's speculation, because I honestly don't know whether mister Nolan provided to check your Sergeant Discan that information. It's speculative.
The coroner asked where in the police brief there was a note or a record of a conversation between the detective Graham Discan and John's neighbor, Murray Nolan.
I have them, you're worship as a documentary exhibit.
I think all it says is that he spoke to neighbors.
The coroner went to the point, was there a definitive statement or suggestion in any document, any statement or running sheet to establish that Detective Discan did speak for any length of time to Murray Nolan in nineteen ninety three.
Well, in nineteen ninety three, they didn't take any statements. It appears that the investigation was all by way of speaking to people and then recording very short summaries on a series of ongoing running sheets.
For Murray Nolan, who was still to give his evidence. The amount of time spent by John's lawyer on Murray's failure to tell police in nineteen ninety three what he says he saw to have filled him with confidence Murray would be called to give evidence on day three of the inquest. You'll recall that Murray told me about what he decided to disclose and what he decided to keep from Detective disc And in nineteen ninety three, so they
clearly spoke. Murray's actions back then are very hard to reconcile with his efforts since here's a reminder of what Murray said in episode eight.
Was that obvious to me?
It was that obvious to me that he'd killed her because of all she's going to miss in twenty eleven. And well, I'm gonna stay at this because not resting three or four days, like it was that obvious.
What about when Discin started investigating soon after she disappeared.
Now I told him nothing, Well, what had you decided for yourself?
Well, I just thought I'm staying out of this. He's my friend.
I've got to live next door to him, and I'm going to serve for him, and I just what I'm staying out at it was just toooust a mistaken.
At the time.
As the questioning of the detective Glenn Taylor continued, he raised the fact of the mistaken assumption of Detective disc In about the Sunday two thirteen pm phone call.
Unfortunately, there was a bit of weight put on there about this phone call being made at two thirteen am, when in fact it was two thirteen pm the previous day.
The Deputy State Coroner was right across it.
Yes, we know that's probably distracted the focus of the investigation.
Unfortunately.
Craig Leggett next raised the theory put forward by Ian Glewis, and we all know him as Scruffy, the theory that Bromin's body may have been buried at a building site, but not in Ilwang in Uribar, a small village northwest of Lennox Head.
Let's move to the Nieribar property and your theory there seems to be that mister Winfield buried bronwin under the concrete in the slab.
No, I didn't. Mister Glewis has a possible sedestion there. I don't have a theory on that. As I said I record, we're the gatherers of the evidence so to speak. As investigators, Yes, I could come to some conclusions like at the end of my statement, but I don't have a theory so to speak, that Bromain was buried under a foot of concrete at Nuribar. But if things were raised by witnesses, we will endeavored to pursue those aspects.
So far in the podcast we have seriously discussed two potential sites. Lake Ainsworth, a short drive from the Windfield Sandstone Crescent home, and the property in Illewong in the Shire south of Sydney, where John worked as a bricklayer. But in the lead up to the inquest, Scruffy was promoting a theory that a property under construction at Nuribar possibly held Bromin's remains. Neither Lake Ainsworth nor Illawong got so much as a look in at the inquest.
Well, let's look at what you did pursue that.
There's nothing I could pursue. Well, for starters, mister Winfield was working in Sydney at the time. He wasn't working at Nuribar.
Are you saying that you've now satisfied yourself because of the likely chronology that there's nothing in this Newybar concrete slab trail to warn't going down.
No, I haven't satisfied myself because it's an area there that could there could be room there to follow up. But we just do not know where that location is. And then exact time frame where mister Winfield was working on this Newybar house we haven't been able to establish.
Well, let's do it step by step. It wouldn't matter if the concrete slab was poured before sixteen May nineteen ninety three, because we all know bromwin was alive on sixteen May nineteen ninety three. Agreed, Agreed, So the only relevance can be if the concrete slab was laid sometime after sixteen May ninety ninety three. It's got to be logical, doesn't it.
That's correct. We just simply don't know where the property is.
Well, just stay with me. If it was laid before sixteen May nineteen ninety three, it's quite irrelevant because Bronwyn was alive on sixteen May nineteen ninety three. That's right, isn't it.
You've agreed it's irrelevant to the point that if she's under the slab.
Because she couldn't be under the slab, That's right, exactly. Now, the evidence is that mister Winfield was not seen in the Lenoxhead area for some two weeks after sixteen May ninety ninety three. The evidence seems to suggest he was in Sydney.
Agreed, that's correct.
So if he was to put Bromwin in the concrete slab at some stage, the body must have been stored somewhere for a couple of weeks. That's part of the th isn't it.
You're saying this word theory. I've never suggested a theory to start. I just say what mister Glewis has told me and included in the brief if now, I don't know what point in time they could have formed this and didn't pour the concrete till a month later. I
honestly don't know. I'm not a builder. Things might get formed up ready to pour concrete, and for one reason or another, perhaps it's whether or the concrete or not being a viable or whatever, perhaps the slab is not actually poured for three to four weeks half it's formed up. Our biggest problem is we don't know the exact chronology, and secondly, we don't know what the location of this property at Nurriba.
All right? Can I suggest to you the property is Ernie Kiss's property at Nirriba Martin's Lane, Nuriba. And can I suggest to you that you could have found that out simply by speaking to mister Glewis about which jobs he was working on in the nineteen ninety three period. But because you thought there was so little weight in the point, you didn't bother investigating it.
No, that's not true, and mister Glewis is going to give evidence as well. Yes, he was specifically asked could he go out and locate that property? He was unable to do it.
I'm asking about a specific matter, and that is your failure to investigate.
Is not a failure to investigate where.
Mister Lewis was working at that period in time in nineteen ninety three.
Well, I've asked the direct source. He doesn't know.
All right. You know, don't you that he was working in the building industry in ninety ninety three. You're aware of.
That he was one of probably many people on specific locations houses being built. Again, you're probably best to ask mister Glewis why he.
Can't locate the house. The white Ford Falcon sedan, which John drove from the house in Sandstone Crescent on the night Bromwin disappeared was always an old, obvious potential crime scene. It should have been subjected to forensic examination during the first police investigation by Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three. You'll recall that the vehicle's registration had expired in May of that year, and that John renewed the redgo at a place called Miranda in the Shire south of Sydney
on the afternoon of Monday May seventeen. John would drive the same car for another four years until May nineteen ninety seven. He got rid of the Ford Falcon one year before. Glenn Taylor came on the scene as the investigating detective.
And we said where did it go to? And he said, I sold to a recon yard. It's solid for scrap metals. We didn't think the car existed any further. I think we rang several recognards. Do you have any recollection of a person named John Winville selling a Ford Falcon as a wreck for scrap metal?
I don't believe we ever located the car where it was salted. It wasn't so like an ordinary car to somebody else, but he couldn't recall which wrecking out it was.
We do not believe that the vehicle has survived, but anything's possible that was crushed.
Well, that's what I was told by joining.
Ronman's cousin, Megan Reid is referring to detective Inspector George Radmore, who ran a homicide investigation from two thousand and nine, and we're going to have a good look at that investigation after the inquest episodes.
Putting in another way, the white Falcon was available for inspections for about four years after the disappearance of ronwin wasn't it inspection by the police.
It would have been available to detect your so to disking if he was the original person in charge of the inquiry. It certainly wasn't avilable when we started the reinvestigation.
And it's hardly the case that mister Winfield gets rid of the car as soon as possible, because there's potential bloodstains or something in the boot. He's driving that car around for four years, isn't he.
That's right, he didn't get rid of it.
No, Now, your records show that Bronwin made a number of phone calls to country Link train timetable inquiry line of four May, five May and twelve May. That's what your inquiries show, don't they.
I believe you're talking about what Disco and had established.
Yes, well that forms part of your inquiry, doesn't it.
Yes?
And those dates are right? Does that jog your memory?
Well, that's going by what the runny sheets say.
It is possible that the country Link phone calls were related to the planned visit by Bronwin's sister, Kim Marshall. Kim had options to take a train or a bus from Sydney, her first destination after leaving Tasmania for the trip to the mainland.
Now a detective Sergeant Diskin's running sheet records Bromwin making a statement very soon prior to sixteen May were in effect, she says, your people are all going to be astonished in the future. I'm not going to be around. You can remember a statement to that effect.
I think I mentioned that in my overview statement.
The closest comments in Graham Diskins's running sheet to those words are those recorded as coming from Bromwin's cousin Meghan Reid and the words which Bromwin purportedly spoke to Megan were quote you will all pay, and quote none of you will know what is happening. But did Bromman say those words to Megan or to Meghan's mother, Leah, because
a similar version is in Lea's statement. The Running Sheets also record Megan claiming that Bromwin was a user of cannabis and a flower child who may very well be living on a commune somewhere, perhaps somewhere like Nimben. Claims like those were contradicted fiercely by others, including Bromwin's very close friends, and to this day Meghan is adamant that an impersonator had told Graham Diskin the information recorded as having come from Megan.
Now, did you interview Bromin's mother? You didn't go to Tasmania? I don't think, did you?
I didn't go.
No, But when you read the statement from Bromwin's mother, did it strike you that there were similarities between what the mother had done and what Bronwyn might have done.
No?
You see, Bromwin's mother took off, leaving Bronwin and young Andrew both as preschoolers, and had no contact with them for eleven years. That's as you understand the facts, isn't it.
But Bromwin didn't suffer from schizophrenia. There was nothing to suggest that she suffered from any mental illness or schizophrenia.
Right, well, let's just deal with the mental illness part. You've read in the statements of evidence, Bronwan's saying that mister Penny and the Clearvoyant was the spirit of her dead father. You've recalled Bromwin recounting that to a family friend, haven't she.
I think it was something in fact in the running shees from Diskin. Is it something about the clear Voyant?
Yes, the Clearvoyant Bronwin said was the spirit of her dead father. Now does strike you as being a rational statement?
Nope, I can't speculate because I didn't speak to the clairvoyant back in nineteen ninety three. I did speak to him in nineteen ninety eight, and he didn't recall very much about her at all.
You see, there's a statement, and I'll take the witness to it, but I just wanted to explore it with you. Bronwin told one of the family members that the clairvoint Pendragon had told her that a man was going to come into her life and take her away from everything, and all the problems would be solved. Can you remember that?
Being recounted, John's story has consistently painted Bronwin as being unstable, suffering from some kind of undiagnosed mental illness. When I approached John before the start of this podcast series and invited him to put his side of the story, he replied that the Reed family had what he called a
history of mental illness. It was perhaps unsurprising that John instructed his lawyer, Craig Leggett to try to depict Bromwin as a woman who might have left because, according to John, Bromwin was mentally unwell.
I suppose when you go to a clearvoint, I mean, a lot of people hope to hear all thoughts the things, and they probably do tell them all thoughts the things. But if you go into Tarrey card reading, I honestly don't know. But all I do know is from all the people witnesses I spoke to and all the family members, there was nothing at all to suggest that Bromwin had any form of mental illness or schizophrenia. Prior to her disappearance. She might have been said, she might have been lonely,
she might have been short of money. All those things come with possibly being sad. But there's not one thing to suggest that she was going to leave the kids or leave the Lennox Head area. There was nothing there at all. I mean, not one iota of similarity. What you're suggesting between her mother and Broman's disappearance, that they're linked together by mental illness.
Broman got in touch with quite out of the blue, with Crystal's grandparents within the two weeks prior to her disappearance and set up a link between Crystal's grandparents and Crystal. It was quite out of the blue, it wasn't it.
I mean, if you go through her phone records there in Byron Street just prior to the disappearance, I think she was in contact with quite a few people.
But she hadn't been in touch with Crystal's grandparents ever leading up to that. As far as your inquiry is established, that's right, isn't it.
No? No, I don't think so.
See. I suggest to you that Bronwin was setting up the safety nets so that she could go off the way her mother had left her for some eleven years. How do you respond to that? As to your inquiries just don't agree with that.
John's lawyer pivoted. Now it was time to suggest Bronwin had been living somewhere incognito.
Now let's look at some potential sightings. Jane Johnson is a fifty two year old woman who is now practicing as a clinical psychologist. That is, as far as you understand it isn't it.
Yes, she's in Sydney. I'm not sure what her occupation is now.
And the clinical psychologist the last sentence in paragraph thirteen says, I am ninety five percent sure that this person was Bronwin, even though she didn't respond. This is referring to a Sunday in January of nineteen ninety four in the Cronulla Plaza. Now, what if anything, have you done to explore that particular statement with Jane Johnson.
We've taken a statement from Jane Johnson. Is that the statement you're referring to, Yes.
And this is from a person who's a clinical psychologist, age fifty two in.
Ninety ninety four, that's right. And somewhere in a busy shopping center where she said that she called her name out, she didn't respond to the name, and then she lost her in the crowd. She got a bit of a quick glimpse of her. I don't know if she says ninety five percent sure.
Well you can take it from me. She says, I am ninety five percent sure that this person was Bronlan. So you've just discounted that as not consistent with your theory that mister Winfield was somehow involved.
She didn't speak to the person face to face. I think she said she got a look at a person that looked like Bromwin. She called out that person's name. That person didn't respond. She walked over towards that person and lost her in the I mean, what else can we do? We put the missing person on public display in the whole state of New South Wales, gone to every media outlet we can.
All right, let's have a look at another one. Diane McMillan range. This is paragraph twelve of di McMillan's statement. Rang John Winfield straight after this sighting and told him that I thought I'd seen Bronwin in Coronella. That's paragraph twelve. Paragraph eleven caught the side profile of this girl. I thought it was Bronwan standing there. The girl had long blonde hair with a distinctive wave. Again, you just discount that potential sighting entirely, do you?
No, I didn't discand it. She got a glimpse of a person or something to that effect. She got a side profile.
But what we do know is that she rang John Winfield, she says, straight after, and told him I thought I had seen bronwin So it would appear that she was fairly certain, sufficiently certain about it to Warry Ringing, John.
Look these missing person's reports. I look at it to say possible sightings or definite sidings. I've had a lot of experience in missing person's inquiries in this sort of thing, from a lot of years in homicide squad. We put things in the media. People would ring up and say I think I saw a person like that, and you get all that. But if you're talking about possible or definite, these people are saying it was possible sightings.
Well, ninety five percent is pretty hotly, isn't it. It's beyond reasonable doubt, isn't it?
Well, she says here, ninety five percent, realistically, that's probably her words. Ninety five percent almost suggests that she was definite.
It does, doesn't it?
Well? Ninety five percent. I think it's probably more likely poorly worded, all right, if she catches a glimpse of a side profile.
You'll recall from episode twenty one hearing about evidence of a nineteen ninety six change of address for Bromwin from lenox Head to an old address she had in the Shire, according to the records of the government department Centrelink, and Andy and Michelle Reid shared their view that someone other than Bromwyn was responsible for the change of address to a unit in Credulla in which Bromwin had lived with John Winfield before they moved to lenox Head. I have
been to this property with Andy. We went there near the end of season two.
Gosh, it looks really small. It's not very big at all, mate, No caud you see them there. We looked from the street at the dilapidated extension to a shop. Andy's mind went back to the nineteen eighties when John and Bromwin were in what looked like a blossoming relationship.
That's where Lauren came home to from hospital and she was a baby.
Because he was that type broman used to have to do the bottles on the stove and everything. I finally got the shoes for that after coming in sooner struggling away, so I'd borderr.
A microwave so she could make Lawrence bottles.
Andy's view is that somebody wanted to make it appear that it was Bromwin who had made the change, and therefore that Bromwin was alive, in the same way that somebody claiming to be Bromwin had telephoned the hair salon into cuts and supposedly went back to the house in Sandstone Crescent and left a Medicare check. Glenn Taylor offered another explanation at the inquest in response to a question from John's lawyer about the change of address.
Let me move on to something else. Paragraph one hundred and seventy eight in your statement refers to a change of address coming onto the Senderlink computer records on twenty four April nineteen ninety six. Now new account for that being not Bronwin, who has supplied the change of address details in nineteen ninety six. But you say subsequent police inquiries revealed this to be an old record maintained by Social Security and doesn't reflect a change of address notification
by the missing person. Let me ask you this did you actually do the inquiry of Centlink about the records.
Yes, I did, as far as I remember, I did them.
Glenn had asked Centilink to provide detectives with details about Bromin's account. He received information from a Centerlink officer, Francis McNamara. Craig Leggett probed further.
But it's clear that someone in nineteen ninety six provides the computer with information warranting a change of address. Isn't it something triggers it?
No, all it would have been is the computer saying that there used to be an address down there in e was Parade Cronulla. We'll try that. We'll send it down there, see if we can find her down there.
Well are you guessing now, aren't you? With respect?
Well, it certainly was not a person in person. Well you don't know that it wasn't done personally. Well you don't know that, do you, because I was told by Matt Nama told me that the computer registed a change of address in nineteen ninety six. But this E was Parade Cronulla was one of Bromwin's very old addresses from years gone by.
Well, you're not in a position from your inquiries to discount the possibility that Bromwin is the person who in fact triggered that change of address.
Are you there's no way that Bromwin done that inquiry?
Now, I just want to explore a second last issue with you, and it's this, with your experience, considerable experience over the years, the likelihood of Bronwin's body being in the boot of the car on the evening of sixteen May, with Moxi the dog in the back seat, is just so highly improbable as to be fanciful, isn't it? That would be your view, wouldn't it.
See we've only got mister Winfield's version, but he states that she left the house at nine point thirty pm. There's certainly a possibility any time between seven thirty pm and shortly before eleven PM mister Winfield could take her out.
Well, look, the children are awake to late thirty. They don't go off to a bed to late thirty.
Well, even discounting that, okay, right a thirty to just before eleven, we've still got two and a half hours. Don't know whether the car has gone out once or twice or whatever the situation is.
But I think you've addressed my question. You're not serious.
Are you saying that the dogs are like a type of sniffer dog or something like that, or what.
You're not seriously contending? Are you that it's likely that blond woman was in the boot of the car being driven to Sydney with MOPSI the dog in the back seat?
Well?
Really or is that a possibility? Is it?
I've put things there. I didn't make any direct comment whether she was put in the boot or not.
Well, I'm just asking you for your experience.
Now leave it to the weight the coroner wants to put on the evidence.
You're just not prepared to concede that in your experience, it's highly improbable that ron Win was in the boot being taken to Sydney with the dog in the back seat. That strikes you as fanciful, doesn't it.
Look I've had probably over thirty to forty murder investigations in my service, and I mean, you wouldn't believe what people do with bodies. I see unbelievable.
It would be a very bold move, wouldn't it, to have a dog in the back seat with a body in a boot?
As I said, you would not believe what people are capable of under stressful situations. What they're going to do with the dead body.
Yes, and sometime between the body going in the boot and arriving in Sydney with the two little girls in the back seat, the body is disposed of. That's the theory, is it. It's just fanciful, isn't it.
You're suggesting it's not probable. As I said, my experience is you don't discount really anything.
All right, let's move to the final topic, and it's the telephone call that I suggest to you Bromwin made on eighteen May.
Craig Leggett returned to the purported telephone call supposedly made by Bromwin to the hairdressing salon on May eighteen, nineteen ninety three. Jody was employed there as a hairdresser, but it was her day off, and the caller, whom John Winfield would subsequently tell police, was Bromwin, supposedly asked that her message be passed to Jody, and the message was that Bromwin was never coming back. Glenn Taylor interrupted Craig Leggott to make a point for the record.
Sorry, allegedly, mate.
That's the topic. That's the topic that I want to explore with you. Michelle Flanagan was the owner of the hair cutting salon, wasn't she at the relevant date.
I read it very very quickly. It was handed to me just before I went into the witness box. But I believe she mentions that she's an owner or part owner, or used to be a part owner of the business.
You see, Michelle Flanagan was not interviewed by you, was she.
No, No, she wasn't interviewed by me.
No.
We spoke to the alleged person that had taken the phone call, which was Robinson.
Well, I'll ask the questions, thank you, I'll ask the questions.
Well I'm answering your question.
No, you're not. With respect, You're not. Let me just read to you. Michelle Flanagan says, on Tuesday, eighteen May nineteen ninety three, I was on my roster day off. Canye Robertson, an employee at the salon, was working that day. On my days off, i'd go into the salon and check how things were going each day and take the takings for the day. I went into the cell on
this day at about four pm. I recall that on this day, Tanya told me that bronin Winfield had called and had left a message for Jody that she was leaving the kids and going away, and that Jody would have to help her father to look after the children. Now, just pausing there, You have not interviewed Michelle Flanagan, have you no?
Because it was totally discanted by Tania Roberson, who's denied taking any such call.
Well, you've used the word denied. Can I suggest to you with respect that that was rather hasty what Tanier Robertson says. This is paragraph three of Tania Robertson's statement, I do not recall receiving a telephone call. Now there's no denial there. Well, five and a half years later, Tanyer is saying I do not recall receiving a phone call. That's what she's saying.
That's what the statement says.
Your experienced detective Sergeant Taylor. Is that five and a half years, for people who are not used to giving a witness statement, is a long period of time for a memory, isn't it.
She does add a little bit on the end of her statement if you might have a look at that, and says, I'm sure that if I had received a phone call from Bromwin. I would have remembered it.
And the reason why she says that is because Bronwin was a missing person at the time. That's what she says. I was aware at the time Bronwin was a missing person and I feel I would remember the call because of the circumstances at the time. No one knew that Bronwin was a missing person on eighteen May, so that can't be a valid reason, can it.
Glenn Taylor explained that at the time Mark Guthrie and his family were trying to see Crystal, Mark and his family were of the view in nineteen ninety three that Cristel was the biological daughter of Mark, when in fact Cristel was the biological daughter of Mark Davis.
It would have been of great assistance to the Guthries in their family law aspects if Brown had gone walk about up in Queensland and didn't want to be found. It was suggested that the girl Robertson was a friend of the Guthries and had been put up to say that she got a phone call from Brodwin to that effect that she wasn't coming back to assist the Guthries in their family law plane For Crystal. But the end result was, as I said, she doesn't recall, and she said, I'm sure I would have recalled.
She doesn't say that with respect. She says, I do not recall. No one I suggest to you, particularly not Tania Robertson had any reason to remember whether a phone call was made or not, because it just wasn't significant as at the eighteenth.
Well, Jadie worked with Tanya Robinson in the same salon. I mean, certainly they would have been discussing them something to the fact that Bromwin's gone away.
She wasn't a missing person. There was nothing suspicious surrounding what was happening with Bromwin. Anyway, I'll leave that. I think that we'll just end up debating each other on that.
Are you calling Michelle Flanagan as a witness.
Well, your worship, I'd certainly like to if I can get some assistance.
Matt Fordham stood to raise an issue that he had with his counterparts, questioning of Glenn on the evidence of Taniel Robertson.
I think your worship and I haven't objected to my friend's cross examination of this witness, but I think the flavor that my friend is intending to extract from these sentences. It's only one flavor that your Worship is open to draw from it. So I think we can investigate that point, but I don't think it's going to yield anything productive to your Worship in investigating the manner and cause of this death. I think that my friend has really split a hair, but he's split it fairly, unfairly.
Your Worship was almost the end of day one and the Deputy State Currenter Karl Milavanovitch, and a courtroom full of Bromwin's family, friends and acquaintances had listened intently for hours as a summary of the entire police investigation was read aloud, along with claims that Bromwyn was in fact not dead. Karl Milavanovitch hinted at what many in the courtroom must have been thinking.
Well, I think, in fairness to mister Leggett, if there's any evidence that is likely to satisfy this court that there's a remote possibility that Bronwyn is still alive, that's evidence that should be put before the court, but it has to be weighed up in terms of the weight of that evidence. And that similarly applies to any alleged sightings and so forth.
I think at the end of the day we can all come to a.
Fairly conclusive view that I don't think there's any prospect in the world that Bronwyn is still alive, and probably there is very little prospect that she was alive for much longer after the sixteenth or seventeenth of Maine.
It was a powerful and probably damning indication of the Deputy State Coroner's preliminary view. The challenge for John's lawyer was to try to dissuade him from that view. Craig Leggett stood up and put forward the alternative scenario.
Well, you have to be very careful with that, your worship. If a coroner was sitting in relation to Bromwn's mother at the same point in time as we are, that's the conclusion. It probably would have been reached there, and that would have been wrong.
Karl Milavanovitch did not appear moved by the submission.
Oh no, I think the circumstances are different. There's too close a parallel between Bronwyn and her mother, which is not fair, and I can see perhaps why that might want to be exploited for the benefit of certain known persons. But if you look at the situation with Bromwin's mother, she did suffer from diagnose schizophrenia. Yes, when she did leave and go to England, the children were already in
the legal custody of her husband. It's not the situation here where Bronwin had legal custody, but she had possession of the children and on all accounts was plenty to move back into the matrimonial home and your custody of the children. It's a totally different situation.
As against that though.
But as the detective says, there's no diagnosis of schizophrenia, although she was going through a difficult time in her life. I think a difficult time that was obvious from the circumstances.
Just before we leave that because as you put your finger on it, it's a very important We have Bronwin telling family members that something is going to happen and that they're all going to be taken by surprise, and it's almost in the nature of a threat. She's saying, look, I need two thousand dollars and if you don't pay it to me, then there's something going to happen which
you're all going to feel guilty about. Subsequently, and then We've got this influence by the Clear Voyant on her, as well as telling her that all her problems are about to end, and of course the bringing back of Crystal's grandparents into Crystal's life. So there are circumstances which hunt the other way as well.
Oh, yes, I've got an open mind, but I was simply saying we don't. We shouldn't put too much weight on what people are relying on in relation to memory going back nine years. The reality is it's two thousand and two now and she hasn't operated her bank account, she has had no contact with her children. We hear
she's walking around Nimber this morning. We've had signings of Elvis Presley as well, and she's been cited by a professional person and Caring bart so on that basis, those people are either mistaken or she's certainly not doing very much to try and hide her disappearance. She's gone back to the area where she virtually grew up in and wandering around the streets and shopping and shopping centers. Some people might say that seems very, very unlikely, and I think that's the point.
My obligation as a coroner before.
I even address any other issues is whether I am satisfied that she is deceased, the fact that she becomes a missing person, people start putting two and two together and start remembering here to say conversations, which I don't think is particularly helpful. The reality is we've got to look at the evidence today and where is she today. There's no sightings, she hasn't had any contact with her children. The circumstances in the way she left is all, in
my view, very strong evidence. So what I'm trying to say is I'm not going to be particularly convinced in relation to sightings as placing much weight on it and convincing me that she's not deceased. But I certainly don't suggest that you not continue with your life of questioning. But it has to be weighed up according to its value.
Thank you. I'm grateful to you for that. Thank you.
John's lawyer was nothing if not persistent. He raised again the purported Bromwin telephone call to the hairdressing salon.
And if Kayleen Jones is correct in the call to Jody this morning, then there is a person at Nimbon who is fitting Bronwin Winfield's description. I don't have anything further for this witness.
Glenn Taylor was still sitting patiently waiting to be asked further questions. Matt Fordham had one one.
So where was it the first time that you learned that it was suggested that the property at Nuribar may in fact be Ernie Kiss's property at Martin's Lane.
The detective responded that he had just learnt this ownership detail during Craig Leggett's cross examination of him. Matt Fordham, the police officer with the legal background who was tasked with presenting the case, was caught unawares earlier in the day because he and Glen Taylor had not known the address of the property at Nuribar, nor did they know that its owner was somebody called Ernie Kiss. All that Scruffy had said was that he was suspicious of a
property at Nuribar. Scruffy could not recall to whom it belonged. John and his lawyer knew those details, and they saved them for the cross examination of Glen Taylor through you.
I'd ask mister Leggett to indicate to your worship all the information that might assist your worship in the manner and cause of death. I think it's very improper for my friend to hide details such as the address of the house where that deceeased may in fact be. I think it is very improper for that to be hidden from you until this late stage.
When Matt Fordham refers to my friend, he is of course directing that at Craig Leggett, not the witness such as Scruffy. The Deputy State Coroner, however, didn't seem concerned by the legal maneuverings.
Well, I don't think it's being hidden. It was put on the record.
It might have been put on fairly quickly, and you may not have taken notes. I don't think I did. But if you're prepared to give us that address, mister legant.
Can I get it to you in the morning. I just don't have it right now. Apart from the address that I've given you, the name of the person, and that Saint Martin's Lane or whatever it was.
Could I ask, also, sir, through you, is there anything else that my friend is hiding from me? It would be fairly negative towards the effect of this in whirey your worship. In fact, I think that the function of this inquest would be defeated if your worship was to be presented with these gems of evidence as we go along. Surely it's much better for the officer in charge to have the opportunity to investigate things like the address of the property where the concrete slab is.
All right, Well, mister Leggett is not under any obligation to provide any evidence that might be unfavorable to his client. His client is only a witness in these proceedings. But certainly if he is in possession of information which is contrary to what's contained in the police brief, as a matter of procedural or fairness, it should be provided. Otherwise, there's no point in me spending weeks going through a brief and listening to evidence when there may be some
evidence that rebuts it. So from that point of view, the prosecutor raises a point that we can certainly circumvent and go directly to some of the issues that might be challenged in the police brief. If you have evidence that contradicts that, and I think in fairness, he should provide that to my sergeant or to me so that we can at least look at it, and it may be something that no longer forms part of the brief.
Then okay, yes, I certainly take that on board.
I don't know what for example, but if there's receipts or bank accounts or things like that that might support an alibi or might support a position of being in a different place at a different time, and that's contrary to the way the police investigation run in terms of the fact that this is fact finding mission. It's not a criminal court. No one is charged with a criminal offense. It's an inquisition to find out what happened to Bronwin.
Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case, please contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au. You can read more about this case and see a range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray, with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation.
Of Bromwyn Winfield.
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