Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian from John and Bromman's old house on the hillside in Lennox Head. It is a fifteen minute drive to the nearest police station in the town of Ballina. The coast Road is the picturesque route south, passing John's favorite surfing beaches of
boulders and sharps. Heading west for a bridge crossing at North Creek, John pulled up at River Street, so called because of the Mighty Richmond River, a stone's throw from the police building.
He got here on a.
Wednesday morning in August nineteen ninety eight to be interviewed by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor about the disappearance of Bromwin five years and three months earlier. The videotape of that interview remains under lock and key with New South Wales Police. Bromwin's sister Kim Marshall, retrieved the official transcript of the entire conversation for me. It is vitally important as a record of the one and only time John Winfield's version of events. His side of the story has been properly
documented by a senior police detective. Prior to August five, nineteen ninety eight. His side of the story was known to many, but they'd heard it from others too, so
there was both direct and hearsay knowledge. There were John's versions of his trip back to Lennox Head on the night of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, his conversations with Bromwyn and the two girls in the house at Sandstone Crescent before they were put to bed, His story about Bromwyn having said she wanted a break from the children for a few days. The phone calls, he says
Bromwyn made from the bedroom that night. The car, he says he heard, pull up outside the house on Sandstone Crescent soon afterwards to collect her, his explanation for his hasty.
Departure from the house that night.
Then a drive of ten hours or so south on the Old Pacific Highway with Crystal and Lauren and the pet dog until their arrival the next morning in Sydney. All of these things were known to Bromwan's friends and family, but they were told and retold in dribs and drabs
important facts were not known at all. For example, John's sudden arrival at his former wife's home in the Southerland shire of Sydney on the morning of the drive from Lennox Head, and the plea he made to that woman's mother in law, whom he had never met, to look after the girls. As John said, he had an important job to do.
My daughter in law, Jenny was out and I was not sure where Brad was.
In episode four, a voice actor for Joan Mason read parts of her police statement.
I answered the door and I saw a man who introduced himself as Winfield. I don't remember his first name, but I recalled. He told me that he had been Jenny's first husband. I saw that he had two young girls with him. I remember both these young girls were dressed in pajamas.
I remember this man.
Winfield asked me could he leave the two girls. He was in Sydney to do a big job. He said something about being in the building game and he had to go and see someone about a job. He said that he had been driving all night. He said he needed to leave the children with someone. I recall telling him that he could leave the kids there and I would tell Jenny when she came home. He left the children with me and I looked after them until Jenny arrived back home.
Those details would only come to light in the weeks after John's interview at the Ballana Police Station on August five, nineteen ninety eight, as Detective Sergeant Glen Taylor tracked down
more and more people to talk to. Andy Reid's wife, Michelle had made notes on different pieces of paper over the five years, notes of what she had been told by John and what she had been told by others who talked to John, But nobody had written all of John's words down until Glenn Taylor asked John to come to the police station four normal interview.
The interview has commenced at age fifty two am. For the purpose of the tape record, Can everyone present state their full name?
Arm Detective Sergeant Glenn William Taylor.
Detective Senior Constable Wayne Temby introduced himself, and John followed.
Suit Jonathan Winfield.
The name Wayne Temby will be familiar to listeners back in nineteen ninety three, when it was the detective Sergeant Graham Diskins's job to investigate Bromman's disappearance. Wayne Temby was a more junior officer on the case. He answered to Discan. The two investigations Detective Discins then Detective Taylor's, were starkly different.
Whereas no statements were taken from anyone in nineteen ninety three, when Discin was running the investigation, Glenn Taylor was determined to interview as many people as he could find, get their statements on the record, and put them into a brief of evidence.
Do you agree, mister Winfield, that there are no other persons present in the interview room other than the people that have just introduced themselves?
Yes?
I do.
And do you agree that the only door to this interview room is directly to your left, which is in a closed position. Now, yeah, mister Winfield. As I've already explained to you, Detective Temby and I are making inquiries in relation to the disappearance of your wife, Browan Joey Winfield on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety three from Lennix Head. We're going to ask you some
further questions about this matter. These questions and any answers that you care to give to those questions will be recorded electronically, both on video and audio. Cassette tapes as the interview takes place. Do you understand that?
Yeah.
In this episode, which follows the revelations in the two subscriber only episodes of eleven and twelve, you are going to hear John Winfield in his own words. You are not hearing John's voice. We've got a voice actor for this, but you are hearing Glenn Taylor's distinctive voice for this podcast series. Glenn agreed to read from the transcript of the interview that he did with John, but first, here's Glenn at his home in Ballina in March twenty twenty one.
I was meeting the former homicide detective for the first time. Let's go back to the interview that you did with Jonathan Winfield. There must have been a bit of anticipation, on a bit of build up, and you go into that and how did his demeanor striking concerned that the evidence have a week later to.
Lead to chargers. We believe he should put him my electronic We called it HEAVI you.
He was cooperative and came to the interview with you and detected timby voluntarily es. I asked him about the pros and cons of interviewing the person of interest, a man whom Glenn regarded as a clear and present suspect ahead of interviews of everyone else. Remember when Glenn Taylor interviewed John, it was August nineteen ninety eight. Lauren and Crystal were ten and fifteen, and John was no longer in contact with Bromwan's brother Andy Reid, nor with Bromwin's
sisters Kim Marshall and Melissa Reid. John had stopped talking to Bromwin's cousin, Megan Reid. The families were estranged. Bromwin's loved ones were deep suspicious of John. In the interview, are you looking at, for example, a folder that is in front of you, a long list of questions that you prepared?
Of what we did. We certainly went over the movements.
Of himself when he arrived back at the house and what was discussed, and he again a Lexid that she was seen this mysterious fan call and leaving the house and not saying where she's going already ing and then why he would suddenly just make a decision to take the key, King still in there, jamas put in the car, are they in your clothes? And then God in the family car that she was sitting positional back to Sydney.
The timeline of the investigation by Glenn Taylor shows that Jonathan Winfield was the first cab off the rank, the first person to be formally interviewed. I think he's still wanted.
To project in the interview that he was concerned for her, and then he had nothing to hide, he'd done nothing wrong.
We tried not to lead in his stay and untain and when you were sitting there opposite.
Him in the media like that, which is being electronically recorded, as you're getting the answers and hearing his explanations for certain things that you might have found.
Suspicious, but you're keeping an open mind.
Were you being persuaded that perhaps this wasn't suspicious, that she had just started a new life.
Where would she go, how would she fund herself to do these things? Loan's ever seen us since or none of her bank accounts had ever been touched, and she's never attempted to make contact with the kids.
We went right through.
Everything that he allegies happened about his marriage and going down to Sydney to do work, and then finding out that prominent move back into the family own.
Did you if I any people who were antagonistic or potentially enemies of bronwin who may have caused her harm.
Nay not. Why I hope he talks to me. You never know, Jonathan Winfield, he was never formally Indian.
Back in the addition with mister Gash he has spoken didn't but he was never formally anyviewed by a WI of electronic recording or eveything statement taken from him.
But he will have to agree to come in and talk to you all. Now, No, he didn't.
But he's saying that she just walked down in the family homeland. She's just a missing person now, and that she's left the home that have her own lanes. It would likely make it more suspicious if you said, no on, I'm not going to participate in any Indian because he's always wanted to come across that she left the home that night.
Never did he send.
Again and how to strike you in that interview, I believe he wanted to put himself across as wanting to assist the police.
He didn't ever indicate that he wanted to be leading he represented.
Now let's return to the nineteen ninety eight police interview with John Winfield.
I'm just going to read this onto the record here, and if you understand it, I'll just get you to acknowledge that the statement made by you accurately sets out the evidence which you will be prepared, if necessary, to give in court as a witness. The statement is true to the best of your knowledge and belief, and you make it knowing that if it is tended in evidence, you shall be liable to prosecution if you are rawfully stated in it anything which you know to be false
or do not believe to be true. Do you give an undertaking to tell the truth?
In his interview, Yeah, Yeah, John confirmed that he was still living at the house in Sandstone Crescent with Lauren and Crystal.
The experienced bricklayer said he was not working.
Do you agree that prior to the commencement of this interview I told you that I wanted to have a conversation with you about the disappearance of your wife at Lennox Head on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety three.
Yeah.
John answered the early questions with what, in my view reads like an offhand or somewhat disinterested tone. It seems that Glenn was trying to build rapport, gently rolling the arm over with a series of easy questions at the start, when were they married, What was Bromwin's surname before they were wed?
Where did they live when.
They first went to Lenox Head from the Qunella Shire?
When was Lauren born? He wanted John to get comfortable.
Can you give us any names that she used to associate closely with in the early nineteen nineties?
Close friends?
Denise Barnard, probably the next door neighbor, Debbie Nolan.
Do you know where Denise? I haven't seen. Yeah.
I see Denisa around town occasionally talk to her, but I don't know where she's living, either Ballino or Lennox Head.
I have talked to Denise about her limited contact with John after Bromin disappeared. Have you formed view about whether he did murder Roman?
Yes? I have.
Do you know when you formed a view like that? Right?
But then I've always had that view.
Did you effectively cut ties with John back then because of that view?
Yes, not that he would have ever made an effort to be in contact with anyone. Really, He's not that sort of person. He would have been happy. I think once it all died down a little bit, when Lauren was at school. If it was ever in the paper Missing Person's Week Roman would appear, she'd be removed from school. She wouldn't be there, So he's just kept her protected all that time as well. High school, she was never
there when anything was in the paper. I could never approach her say remember me, I mean she was little. Maybe she remembers me.
I don't know.
When I see her now, she's identical to a mom from behind.
Do you ever talk to her?
I didn't ever want to. I don't know, bring it up and pass my thoughts on to her, because obviously she still believes her dad. And what would you say, what haven't you mummy? I mean no, I've just did never go there, and we were never encouraged to see her after Bromwin disappeared by John. John just shielded those kids and nobody saw them. And he's very private.
I guess it's possible to look at that with an understanding that he doesn't want his children to be reminded by rumormongers.
Sure.
Now back to the nineteen ninety eight interview by Glenn Taylor of John Winfield.
Okay, the next person just said was a lady called.
Nolan was it. Yeah, Debbie Nolan. Actually her name is really Debbie Hall. She's really my next door neighbor.
Okay.
Deb was one of the first people to contact me about doing a podcast investigation into Bromwin's suspected murder. You first heard her in the earliest episodes, and deb stays in touch, ringing and emailing me with information that she hears around the community of Lennox Head.
And I thought, you know what, You've got to get away from this guy. You you call that miserable and he's controlling.
And I did used to say to her from when, you know, when she'd had first crying sessions.
About him out here, And I say, Brown, you can't live like this.
You've got to get away from him.
Oh but I've got nowhere to go, and I'll have no money and never And that went.
On for a while.
Apart from that, Oh wait a minute, there's another girl. I know someone spoke to her, but I can't even remember her second name.
I know Graham spoke to her.
The Graham that John is referring to is the then detective Sergeant Graham Disco and John was speaking about the woman that we are calling Joan. She has been concerned about her real name being published. The first time you heard her was in episode two. I'm not going to identify you by your name in this podcast, but your voice will be heard.
Yeah, yeah, are you okay with that? And I understand that you've got personal reasons?
Where would you like to start talking about your friend Brongwa.
She loves to kill so that there's no way she willingly go off and leave her kids.
Okay, Okay, We're going to move on a little bit now. Between nineteen ninety and say early nineteen ninety three, Yeah, what was happening in your family life?
Oh well, we moved in the house in January nineteen ninety.
My mother died.
In September nineteen ninety, bronwin A was pregnant again. She had an abortion in I can't remember if that was ninety one or something, either ninety or ninety one, I just can't remember. I mean, we were going through a pretty tough time. I mean, like when mom died, I took it pretty tough, and sort of she got pregnant, which wasn't planned, and we decided, you know, we weren't going to have any more kids because at that stage, you know, we had three kids really living with us.
We had my eldest daughter, Jodie Glenn Taylor. Circled back to the abortion. How did you How did Bromin feel about that? I don't know. I sort of, like I said, my mom died that year.
I was really close to my mom, and I was probably I don't know, I mean took it.
I don't know.
See, mum died in September nineteen ninety. Yes, that was around about the time that she got pregnant. I think by memory, around about that time, alright, and it was just sort of too much for us to cope with. So we talked about it. We had three kids at that time and that was enough.
Was there a point in time somewhere between say, Christmas in nineteen ninety two in March from ninety three where your marriage started to deteriorate?
Oh?
Yeah, Yeah, that's what's happened.
That's what happened, you know, sort of sort of virtually as soon as Lauren got off to school, you know.
Can you tell us about that all? Well? She reckons, she reckons.
She told me just before we separated that she had a nervous breakdown in the in the January of nineteen ninety three. All right, and I said to her, you know, what's a nervous breakdown? I've heard of it, but can you tell me what it is? You know, I sort of didn't understand, but she reckoned. She had a nervous breakdown, and she went to see the doctor in Lennox. I don't know if it was doctor Watson or doctor Hughes.
I don't know which one it was, but she went to one in Lennox and apparently she was being treated for depression, you know, like a nervous breakdown. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know, but that's what she told me.
You know, where did you have these discussions?
You know what It's like you sort of round the house and you're sort of talking, and you know, what's going on with our marriage, that sort of this sort of stuff.
Did this go over some weeks?
Well, Lauren went off to school on what say, the first of February and ninety three, I think whatever day school started she started. Then she was still working in that job at the time, and virtually from that moment that was when she said to me, one of these days, I'm going to move out. I drove Lauren and Bronwin down to the school because I had a big day sort of starting up at school, and you know, things weren't sort of things were a bit funny, you know.
I think I.
Drove Lauren to school every day for the first week, you know, with her mum. And I can remember her going her mum walking to school with her and I said, gee, that took a long time, you know, because she was in therefore, it was probably fifteen minutes or so. And she said she came back and said, I just had to tell the teacher that we're separating.
What did you feel about that?
I was naturally surprised, you know, I mean, fair enough. I meant we weren't getting on particularly well. But I mean, geez, plenty of marriages go through funny times. I mean, we were never sort of fighting in front of the kids, sort of hitting each other or anything like that.
You know.
See what what's been suggested to me, and I don't know whether it's right, is when she had this bit of a job she had, it was virtually the first job she really had where she had money to herself, because she kept all the money herself, you know, and she got that little bit of independence. You know, it's been suggested to me sort of went to her head with that little bit of independence. She had her own money, and sort of she was.
Off, you know.
The detective asked John whether Bromwin was taking any medication at the time.
Well, that's like I said.
She said to me that she'd been treated for a nervous breakdown in January nineteen ninety three by one of the doctors in Lenox, you know, but I never saw her take any medication.
Later, Glenn Taylor would go to see the doctors Bromwin was known to have consulted, and nobody had any record or recollection of treatment of roman for a nervous breakdown. Brommin's brother Andy is adamant that he would have been told by his sister if she had suffered a mental or nervous breakdown. He is sure that John's claim is false.
Leading up to this separation, what did she want you to do? Did she want you to sleep in another room or move out of the house.
No, No, we slept No, I mean we've slept in the same bed. I mean it's sort of funny, like her moods would change on a daily basis. She's not what you'd call a bad tempered, sort of aggressive sort of person, but she's sort of pretty stubborn. I'm probably more the bad tempered one, you know. I shoot off a lot of steam. We were getting along fine, and then sort of she'd sort of say, all of a sudden, there's problems in our marriage again.
I mean, I told Graham, Graham, you're talking about detective Sergeant.
I told Graham, like when she was working in that shop, I told you about she'd been working with this bloke in there called.
I don't know his name. All I know is.
His name's Jacko, right, And apparently from what her girlfriends had told me that she'd sort of sort of fallen for this Jacko bloke, you know. And I think Graham contacted him at Barrera. I'm not one hundred percent, but I know someone told me his mother lives at Barrera in Sydney. So anyway, apparently while she was still living with me, she was all about, he's got a motorbike and he was picking her up and sort of taking her for rides up to Byron Bay and back on the motorbike.
You know. But this is all I never saw it for myself.
I mean, she'd actually told me that, you know, but that was while she was working in that shop, Eden's Takeaway and she was working with this jack guy.
Did you ever see this Jacko? Yeah? I know him. Yeah.
What did he look like a sort of tall guy with black curly hair, heavy sort of what was he doing for John?
He was working in the takeaway shop, he was in the same place. Yeah, yeah, and he and you said he had a motor sockle.
Yeah, well she told me they used to go riding up to Byron Bay and stuff. You know.
In episode three, you heard Broman's brother Andy Reid, recalling John's agitation that his estranged wife was hanging out with Gary Jackson and had supposedly been seen on Jacko's motorbike.
All of a sudden, John's ringing me, Oh, she's going there and around town. She's in another relationship with some bloke. She's on the back of a motorbike. He was very flustered about that. He didn't handle that well because Bromwold remain say, John's upparked up the road at Byron Street after the spot after John had rung and obviously there must have been some confrontation because had rung me to say I was accusing me of other relationship.
My colleague and friend Dave Murray asked Jacko about this.
Did you ride a motorbike back then? Gary? Yeah, I used to be a bike by that. Okay, do you remember if you ever gave Bromwin a lift on a motorbike? I'm going to give Glenn Taylor pressed John on whether Bromwin had money to herself A sure. Yeah.
I never saw the account, but I actually think Graham was the one that told me about this. Excuse me. I think it was still in her maiden name. It was John's fourth familiar mention of Graham Graham discan.
Okay, we'll just move on a little bit now.
I think the records indicate that you separated some time in March of nineteen ninety three, formally separated. Yeah, yeah, Can you tell us about what happened, how the separation actually came about on the day.
I know the basics, but okay.
Well, she was living at she was living at Byron Street forty forty something. She suddenly decided to live out in the family house. Yeah, and she'd been living therefore. I honestly can't remember. Maybe maybe a couple months. I don't know. I can't remember. She moved out and took the kids with her, and I stayed in the house. So she moved out on her own accord. What did she take with her as much as she wanted. She virtually took as much as she wanted. What about furniture, Well,
took lounges, I remember. I think she took the I know she took the bed because I was sleeping on the floor there on the single mattress.
Virtually she took the lot.
According to John, the move was a surprise. He said he was driving with Bromwin after dropping Lauren at school when she told him that she'd called a removalist.
And then all of a sudden, these removalists turn up. I was told that morning that she was moving out. I gave her a check for the bond money because she didn't have any money, so she said, but oh, you know, I think it was for six or seven hundred bucks. I think I can't remember now, because apparently she told me she had no money. I couldn't stop her, you know, so the kids had to have a place to live. So I gave her money for the bond, and I made it out to the lady, the landlord
down there, Shirley Taylor. But later on I found out that she did have money, because Graham told me she had a grand in the bank, loaded up and off she went.
Was that fairly amicable, was it?
I remember she told the kids the night before that she was going to move out, and I just sort of shrugged it off. I says, that's just one of her sort of you know statements again, you know. And then sure enough, like that morning I saw her, she said, the removaluss is coming at two o'clock.
John wasn't working as a bricklayer when Bromwin told him she was leaving him. He had injured his neck in January nineteen ninety three. John told the detective that his neck was in a brace for almost ten weeks.
After she moved out to the flat in Byron Street. How long did you stay in the house in Sandstein Crescent before you.
Went to Sydney. Oh.
I went to Sydney virtually just to work, just a change of environment. I might have been there from either two to four weeks. I really can't remember. I'd have to look it up.
It is not clear from the interview whether John's comment about having been there for two to four weeks is a reference to how long he stayed alone at Sandstone Crescent after Bromin had moved out in late March, or whether it is a reference to how long he stayed in Sydney while working for Glenn Webster on the build of his house in Illawong in the Shire. In Glenn Webster's statement to police, he specifically recalls working with John on the Anzac Day public holiday in nineteen ninety three.
April twenty five.
He confirmed that his return to the house on the Sunday night in May was his first visit back from Sydney.
So you lived with Sydney to work, Yeah, to work, and then the next contact you had with your wife would have been the night she the night she actually.
Jumped in the car. Yeah, that's it when missing.
Yeah, well did you communicate with your wife just say that you were coming back up to Lennox Head follow.
I had occasionally had phone calls. I remember one particular phone call you. I used to ring her occasionally. I don't remember if it was once a week or once every two weeks. At that stage she was after me to put some sort of one hundred and twenty five bucks or something a month into Lauren's account, which I was sort of negotiating with her to do like a child support sort of thing.
John recalled a conversation he had on the telephone with Bromwin when she was living in the flat on Byron Street and she had a visitor, her good friend and former neighbor, deb Hall.
This Debbie, Debbie Hall at the time, was visiting her just for a cup of tea or something, you know, and all of a sudden, she just exploded at me on the phone, you know, sort of went off for no reason, just to sort of make some sort of make me out to be, you know, a monster to this Debbie. You know, because this Debbie mentioned to me, you know, I don't know why she went off at you on the phone that day, because there's no reason too.
And then later on they had lunch together and apparently she said to Debbie Hall something about being a really good actress or something.
This was how long before the sixteenth of May.
I was still in Sydney, I don't know. Could have been two weeks before, could have been a month before. I used to ring up from time to time just to see how the kids were and stuff.
Whilst you were in Sydney. Yeah.
And when you were communicating with her, did she give you any demands of that propertysettlement?
No, not at all.
Anything about going that she wanted to move back into the family home.
No, No, I never said anything about it at all. That's why it was such a shock when all of a sudden she rang well, I rang her up.
And.
She'd moved out of wherever she was at forty two and she was back in the fair home. You know, I think it was the sixteenth. It was a Saturday or Sunday, wasn't it? Because I came back on the Sunday and she left on the Sunday night about midnight.
Is that right?
There are some interesting disclosures in this answer from John. He was He says shocked that Bromwin had moved back into the family home, but it seems he was not shocked when she moved straight back out again, and his timing is off too. He is saying that she left on the Sunday night about midnight. Previously, however, he told Detective Discan and Bromwin's friends and family that it was about nine nine thirty pm.
Up to that point.
Had you been contacted by a solicitor or had any documents served upon you?
No about family law?
No, no, just let me think. Well, she didn't know my address in Sydney, so I couldn't have had any Now I'm sure I didn't.
Are you aware that she was in contact with a within he solicitous.
Well only through what Graham told me. Graham told me that she'd spoken to a guy in Ballina, Tony Manering, and I think she'd spoken to a guy Byron Bay called I can't remember his name now. And later I found out that she's spoken to and I told Graham this. I found out from a neighbor of mine that she'd spoken to a guy from Mulin Bimbi or Ocean Shaw's Way.
The solicitors to whom John is referring to here, Tony Mannering and Graham Holland, were consulted by Bromman about her legal rights, but in the end she decided to retain Chris mcdebittt, who was based in Lismore. And you've previously heard that Broman telephoned Chris mcdebott at his home on the Sunday afternoon because of her concern about John's imminent
arrival at the house. Romman had made an appointment to see Chris mcdebitt in his Lismore office on the Monday morning for further legal advice, but she neither canceled nor turned up, and he never heard from her again.
In my view, this.
Was one of the most concerning and early signs of possible foul play, and Graham Diskin knew about it within a couple of weeks of Roman's disappearance, but no statement was taken from the solicitor or anyone back in nineteen ninety three. There is another striking feature for police. John really should have been a person of interest in his estranged wife's disappearance at a very early stage. Instead, it is as if John has the inside running on the
police investigation. By the detectives in nineteen ninety three, John had gleaned a lot of potentially significant information, and he said he was told all of it by Graham Discan, Broman's bank account balance, Bromman's legal representation, including Tony Mannering, and chrismcdebitt. Broman's telephone call to chrismcdebitt on the Sunday afternoon. They're just some of the things that John volunteered. He
had been told by Graham discin. Sometimes detectives deliberately share information with a person of interest or plant information for the suspect to find. And it's a good strategy as it can prompt panicky reactions and conversations when telephones are being bugged and listening devices are in houses and cars. But none of that was occurring with John in nineteen ninety three. Police were unaware while they were sharing key intelligence from their own investigation that the person soaking it
up might have been the killer. For detectives SEENI you Consortable Wayne Temby, who was in the interview room at Ballina Police station with Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight, parts of this must have felt like deja vous. It would be interesting to know now how Temby, who is long retired, reflects on the first and the second police investigation.
He has declined to comment for this podcast series. As Glen Taylor took a breather, Detective Temby chimed in, how did you become aware when you were in Sydney that she moved out of the flat?
I rang up and she wasn't there. So I rang the family home, all right, and she answered the phone, and that.
Was what a few days before?
You come up on the day before, I think the day before, I see. And what did you say to her? Oh, I can't remember. I said, just surprise she was back in the family home. You know, I just sort of shut up to see what was going on. I mean she had keys. She always had a key to the family home anyway, you know. I mean she, her and I were the only two people bar my father, are the only ones who have got a key to the family home.
Actually the house is deadlocked.
Actually, I think I put a deadlock, and I think from memory she got a locksmith in to get rid of the deadlock.
I think from memory.
You heard from Bromwin's neighbors, Chris and Lloyd Hargrave about it. In episode three.
She called out to me from our yard on her side of the house. When I approached Bromwin, she asked me if I had a key, and I told her I didn't. She said that she couldn't get into the house because John had changed all the locks. She was very upset and crying and said that John had threatened to take the children from her, the same as he he had done to his first wife and taken Jodie from her.
Bromman said that she was unable to get into the house and she appeared to be very upset at the time. It was at this time that Bronman told Chris and I that Jonathan Winfield had threatened that he was going to take the children from her. It was not long after this that the locksmith arrived, and I'm aware that Bronman moved back into the house.
Bromwin's neighbors were interviewed by Glenn Taylor on September twelve, nineteen ninety eight, five weeks after John's interview.
When you made a rageous to come back up on the sixth Street of May, Yeah, Had you communicated to her that you were coming?
Had you told her? I might have said, yeah, I'm coming home, Yeah, something like that.
John confirmed that Bromwin had kept control of the family car while he was away in Sydney until the Sunday night, and she disappeared and he left in the Ford Falcon with the girls. Glenn Taylor quiz John about his arrival into Banana on that fateful night.
He was dark. I don't know, six o'clock. Say, I came straight here to the police station. See what was your intention to come to the police station, because I was going back there I saw it. Didn't want any shit. I just wanted to cover myself.
Really.
I told the guy downstairs what had happened. I, you know, a family breakup, all this sort of business. She moved out, she moved back into the family home. I'm just going to go back there now. And you know, it was just sort of like I didn't want her ringing up and saying, you know, he's here bashing me, sort of stuff like that, you know, So I sort of came to the police first. I told him what I was going to do, and he said, okay. I saw him take a note of it and went.
Had there been any complaints no from your wife about physical contact between yourself and her up to that point?
No?
No, Look, the law is always on the side of the woman, isn't it. Really, So I just sort of covered myself. I thought, well, when I come up, I thought, well, you know, I don't want to sort of go in there and sort of her start screaming and stuff like that. So I didn't know what I was going to expect when I got there, because you know, I just didn't know.
So I just came in and saw the desk sergeant downstairs, and I can't remember what his name was actually, but I spoke to him for probably fifteen minutes, you know, and I told him the story and I told him where I was going, and that was it.
In the police internal running sheet which logged events in the nineteen ninety three investigation by Graham Diskin, there is an entry and it was made by the then Constable Julie Donovan. The entry states that on May thirty of that year, Constable Donovan.
Verified from Sergeant heart To that conversation did take place in relation to rights of moving back into house.
John described the arrangements that were made for his return to Lenox. There was the telephone call to get a lift from the airport with John Watson, the father of a girl called Natalie, one of Jody's friends when they were at school together.
I think I rang him, or Jody might have rung him and said can you pick that up at the airport? Because I came back with a surfboard, see at a bit of love. Everything I took to Sydney, I brought virtually brought back with me, you.
Know, And that's another interesting disclosure. In my view, it strongly suggests that John Winfield was intending to stay in Lennox for a while. There's no indication in that answer that he intended to leave again that same night to drive all the way back to Sydney. John described the short drive on Sunday evening to the house of Becky Maguire, another of Jodie's friends from school.
Because I remember the sergeant downstairs said, you know, you're better off to have someone with you.
Did you say one of Jade's friends.
Yeah, one of JD's friends, Becky, who's Jody, Jadie's my daughter.
I just want to pause to make another point here. While being cross examined by senior lawyers during trial proceedings over the murder of Christal's AND's wife, Lynn, I realized that my questioners didn't know some things which, in my view, they ought to have been aware of before asking me. It won't be true for everyone, but I grew in confidence in the witness box when my question has made an error or demonstrated that they were not across some
of the more obvious details. Now it might have been a deliberate play by Glen Taylor asking the person of interest who is Jody? And it's possible the season detective wanted John to think that the cops knew little when they were really lulling John into a false sense of security. If it wasn't deliberate, if Glen Taylor did not know where Jody fitted into the picture in that first interview, then in my view, it's not best practice.
Jody's my daughter, right, but she's been out of the family home for years now.
So you arrived at the only can you tell us what happened when you were right?
Yeah, Well, Becky came to the door with me and we knocked on the door and then and the door opened. So once the door was open, I walked in.
John repeated the advice that he said he received five years earlier from the police sergeant on the front desk of the same police station in which he was sitting opposite Glenn Taylor and Wayne Temby.
Don't sort of barge in, knock on the door and sort of walk into the family home. Don't break into the family home.
That's what he said to me. So I took his advice. Did bron Win in for the door.
Yeah, came straight to the door, opened the door and I walked straight in. So once I was right in the door, I said, oh, thanks, beck see you later, and she just off she went.
There is a discrepancy here. Becky Maguire had to get home from Sandstone Crescent. She had been picked up at her house by John Watson and John Winfield after they left the police station. Becky's statement to police, which was taken five weeks after John's interview, is rich with detail. This is what Becky said happened from the time John Watson stopped outside the house in Sandstone Crescent to let John Winfield and Becky get out of the car.
John Watson drove away. We walked up to the front of the house and John knocked on the door. The door opened and Bronwyn and the children were standing at the door. I can't recall what she was going on about. She used to babble on all the time. Bronwin walked back into the house towards the kitchen and John gave the girls a cuddle, and I saw that Lauren was crying. I saw two suitcases inside the doorway, and John picked
them up and put them in the car. John must have had a set of keys to the car, because we then got into the car and he drove me home. I remember both Crystal and Lauren were standing at the window inside the house watching as we reversed out of the driveway. John didn't go inside the house at all while I was in the house with him.
Well, we were driving back to my house.
John thanked me for coming with him and told me he was sorry for getting me involved.
Perhaps John Winfield forgot that he drove Becky home. John Watson's statement makes it clear that he drove away alone, without Becky or John Winfield.
So Rowin invited you in to come in.
She didn't say come in. I just walked in. But there was no objection, no objection at all. I mean, both the kids came and gave me a hug straight away. Becky just stood at the front door. I just said, oh, thanks beck and John Watson he drove Becky home.
Yeah, well, yeah, John was waiting out the front.
I know it's a long time ago, but do you have any recollection what bronwin was wearing?
I told Graham, but gee, I can't remember. I know, I think I remember saying to him that she was wearing the same clothes that she was wearing at work that day. Right, had all the furniture that she'd taken before, Yeah, being moved back in there. Yeah everything, not everything, A lot, a lot of it, probably ninety percent. I suppose the rest was it was still down at the unit. Right, She left it in the unit, and the landlord had moved it out of the unit and put it put
in the garage for storage, right, I see. And then I had to go down and get it after a while because she wouldn't give it to me. But then after a while she gave it to me because there was still rent going on the place.
You know. Okay, what happened? Can you take us through?
Now?
What happened from the time you arrived Over the next few hours, John described having sat down in the dining room with a cup of tea. He said, Lauren was sitting happily on his lap. She hadn't seen her dad for weeks.
That was virtually it.
And then by that time it must have been it was after dinner because the kids at eden.
What was your wife, Demanda like, sorry, what was she like? What was her attitude to you?
I don't know, we didn't talk that much. I suppose she was surprised that I sort of was there, you know that I rang up the day before from Sydney and then all of a sudden I was on the doorstep, you know. So I suppose she was a bit taken aback, But I mean she didn't really let on that she was taken aback. I mean, she wasn't hostile or anything like that.
John's interview is nearing the halfway mark, and we're going to unpack more of it in the next episode. There are some significant loose ends. Here's Glen Taylor describing for the podcast how he first became involved in the case.
I was totally unaware of this matter.
Range Andrew Reid and his wife Michelle approached us in nineteen ninety eight, said look, it's possible to have fresh eyes, because that had absolutely nothing since that July or August of nineteen ninety three, nothing had been done, had been no further developers.
I was a palled that so little had.
Been going back in ninety ninety three, there was saying any red flags. Say very early on, it's not all just about conviction. It's the family and the children knowing what did actually happen to Bromwin?
Where is she?
Glen Taylor's investigation spanned two and a half years and culminated in an inquest in the nearby town of Lismore in two thousand and two, and Glenn retired from the police around this time. What do you try to project in terms of your own tone and approach?
Well, we still have to maintain a rapport with the person.
You cannot get if you weigh verbally aggressive or directly put allegations did you murder her wrong in the house that night? We need to get more information from him at the time, so we're not going to try to get directly offside. But when, because we just were still gathering information and it should have led to at least a frenzy.
Examination of the home and the car. Do you think you build a rapport with Grothan? I certainly had a report.
We were still in a fact finding situation where were still interviewing. There is people we wanted to get on record because it never been formally put on record before.
What is something occurred, So we certainly had many things to ask.
You heard Glenn Taylor refer to a lack of any forensic examination five years earlier. In the initial police investigation, I asked doctor Kirsty Wright to look at some of the key documents from Romlin's case.
But first a.
Disclosure, I am completely biased about Kirsty and her professionalism and character. She is a truly incredible forensic biologist, precise, persistent and intellectually brilliant. Her work over two decades has solved numerous crimes, and Kirsty has also helped identify the remains of many victims of foul play and natural disaster in Australia and overseas. Kursey, You've been looking at Romwin Winfield's case based on police files and other documents that
have provided. In nineteen ninety three, there was no forensic examination of the house where rollin was like seeing live, or of the family car. What, in your opinion, could have should have been done at the time.
The first thing they would do is identify what we call primary and secondary crime scenes. A primary crime scene could be the Winfield house or it could also be Bronwin's flat at Lennox Head. It's very important when you do a criminal investigation that you look at the possibilities that it is a missing person that supports the suspects version of events, or you look for the possibility of foul play as well, so both scenarios need to be investigated.
Possible secondary crime scene could be the wind Field vehicle. All of those locations should have been quarantined and forensically examined as soon as possible.
Now, Madison Walsh is here and she's just finished a degree in physic science majoring in crime scene investigation.
How long would it have been biable after Brienwin disappeared before it was a loss cause?
Ideally, with a crime scene, you want to seal it off as quickly as possible, and that preserves any evidence that may be there. It preserves any evidence being lost or contaminated or removed. Ideally, want that crime scene to be in a state as close as possible to the
suspicious event. Now saying that, there are some forensic evidence that can remain after an event or even after a cleanup, so there could be signs of a struggle, damage to the property, there could be items that could contain biological evidence, and also urination and defecation is a symptom of strangulation, so they'd be looking for any signs of those kinds of biological material that are out of context. If somebody lives in their own home, they're going to have their
own biological material there. But what they're really looking for is something that out of place, something that could indicate a struggle, or something that could indicate something much more sinister has occurred.
In my podcast Shandy Story, doctor Kirsty Wright exposed the unforgivable failure of the Queensland Government's DNA testing laboratory to properly test tens of thousands of samples from crime scenes going back many years. Kirsty's extraordinary findings and her courage in that podcast series and in the subsequent Shandy's Legacy
series have triggered major public inquiries and huge reforms. Her work is having a profoundly positive and enduring impact for many victims of crime, victims of rapes and murders who previously had little to no chance of justice because the DNA lab was failing to detect DNA when it was right there in minute quantities in the crime scene samples. Cherse did that there circumstances of this case as they presented at the time to police, in your opinion, demand a proper forensic examination.
Oh, I believe so absolutely.
We've got a young woman, a mother of two that's suddenly, very suddenly, in unexplained circumstances, has left that should have been treated with suspicion.
Do you think that there could's been a different outcome to this case had there been forensic examination immediately after Brownwin disappeared, Well.
We simply don't know, Madison.
It's definitely a lost opportunity to recover what could be valuable evidence. Sometimes if a homicide is suspected, it could just be one single drop of blood or one item that could point to suspicious circumstances and could identify the offender. By the delay in the police investigating this and the fact that there was no suitable forensic examination of those three areas that I just explained, means that there was a lost opportunities.
We're going back a long time, though, thirty one years. What technology existed at that time compared with now, for example, DNA analysis and other techniques of trying to discover evidence where they at a level, at a standard and being used at that time such that they could have been useful.
Absolutely, forensic science in nineteen ninety three is definitely a lot different to what we can do with it now in twenty twenty four, but there was still the ability to identify somebody with DNA evidence. In fact, convictions were being made in Australia as far back as nineteen eighty eight with DNA evidence. There's also fingerprint examination, there was the location of biological material using luminol testing POLYLTE. It's
the context in which they're found which is informative. So simply finding Bronwinner's blood or biological material or finding her fingerprints may be of no value unless there's actual context to that.
Well, no value if it's found in the house.
But part of the police case is that Bromlin's body must have been concealed in the vehicle. So if for example, Bromin's biological material had been found in the boot of the vehicle, if that vehicle had been examine and of course this is all hypothetical. John has strenuously denied any involvement, and he was the one who drove the car, would that have been sufficient to make a.
Difference identifying blood in unusual locations Unusual locations which may be consistent with transporting somebody's body from point A to point b absolutely should have been one of the poority areas that the police should have investigated. The other thing the police should have done is a forensic examination of
Jonathan Winfield. Would have been too late to get fingerinyl scrapings from him, obviously looking for any sign of Bronwin's DNA under his fingern ls, but they could have identified whether there was any unusual or unexplained injuries on his body. They should have seized Jonathan's clothing, the clothing that he wore on the night that Bronwinn disappeared, to look for any biological evidence on the clothing or look for any signs of damage on the clothing which could be unexplained.
In your professional opinion, Kirsty, having read now about this case based on the official documentation, and having read into lots of other cases, what do you say about the failure in nineteen ninety three to do any forensic examination of house or car given the circumstances of a woman who has inexplicably disappeared from her home, her family, her children.
I think it's unacceptable Pedley, even in nineteen ninety three to not forensically examine those locations. Let's balance it out. There's two sides to this. Where there's been opportunities lost, there's also a lost opportunity to find evidence that could support Jonathan Winfield's version of events as well.
Is it surprising, knowing what existed back in nineteen ninety three, that these things were not done? Oh?
Absolutely, there were forensic tools there. It's a mother of two children suddenly disappears, is never heard from again. There are some suspicious circumstances with the movement of her partner. It just seems incredible to me that this case wasn't properly investigated.
You were shocked at that. Oh, absolutely absolutely.
Even though there was a small delay in reporting Bronwin's disappearance, there is still more than enough opportunity for the house, the car, and Bronwin's flat to be investigated. Really sad for Bronwyn and very sad for her family that they never got the answers that they deserve if the police had of properly conducted a forensic investigation, and Headley, all these years later, they're obviously still searching for those answers.
Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as a podcast production for the Australian. If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case, please contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au. You can read more about this case and see a range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield.
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