Episode 13: Father's Day

Hi, Bromwyn listeners, and welcome to season two. It's Claire Harvey from The Australian. Just like season one, episodes in miss season two will be available to our subscribers first over at bromwinpodcast dot com. Our subscribers heard this episode in early October. This kind of journalism where we try to solve cold cases, just can't be done without the support of our subscribers, so we reward them with early access to our episodes and all our stories, pictures, videos,

Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwan contains course language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you by me Headley Thomas and the Australian Father's Day in Australia fell on September one, a fortnight after our return for Manuel leave at home in Brisbane. I pictured John Winfield in his ocean facing house which looks a little like a fortress near Lennox Head. Everything inside the property must have been spotlessly clean and in its proper place.

Wrote, both Mom and I were very trusting people, and as a result, I was recently scammed my entire life savings by strangers. It wouldn't surprise me if she trusted the wrong person, someone she'd just met, and they were responsible for her disappearance. I also have other theories, but this seems likely to me as I know she never would have left us for long. Imagine growing up with some people around you thinking your dad murdered your mom.

I feel this.

Podcast has only explored one possibility when there are other possibilities to her disappearance. Our mum would never want this kind of pain and heartache on her daughters and grandchildren. She'd be devastated, as I know, she would just want a happy life for us, just like we want for our children. Thank you to those that have been there

Currently, Crystal is not on board with the new South Wales Police position that John murdered Bronwin. This episode was going to revolve around John's side of the story, the version that he gave in the one and only recorded interview he did with a detective that was in nineteen ninety eight. I have the lengthy record of it and for weeks I've been pouring over the detail and comparing it with known facts as well as highly probable scenarios.

Hi Headley, here's the documents sent to us in two thousand and.

Nine on Father's Day. While working out what to do with some of the new and yet to be revealed evidence in this case and where it should sit. In season two of Bromman, I opened an email and his wife Michelle Lead had taken some time between episodes to do a thorough search of her files and email inbox, just in case she had missed something of relevance.

Stumbled on them today going through my email archives. I honestly don't remember ever seeing them, Michelle.

The largest file is titled Chronology. It is a Microsoft word document and the metadata shows that it was first printed in November two thousand and eight. It originated in the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit and one of its authors must have been the highly respected senior Detective George Radmore. George Radmore and other police from the Unsolved Homicide Unit dedicated many hundreds of hours to the case a decade after the Baalinot Detective Glenn Taylor's investigation.

Here we have witness statements from nineteen ninety eight.

Yours isn't in nut war and yours are the plastic value.

I'd layne in two and nine twenty ten with George.

Add Moore, who I had a great relationship with. This was the one case really upsetting.

It wasn't sold.

I'll think a lot of those emails are between Meagan and George Radmore.

That's from George.

Thank you for your efforts last week. I know it was draining, but it is necessary to get the full picture. Already, you have provided evidence that I previously did not know existed, and it is very important to the investigation. It makes it all the more difficult and time consuming to try to remember things from sixteen years ago, which is why the documentation that I have requested is so important. It would certainly have been easier if your statement had been

George Radmore had successfully put away quite a few people without bodies, and that's why they assigned him to it. He's brilliant, He really is brilliant, and he was so disappointed.

Michelle Reid told me that the forty three page word document titled Chronology was provided to her and Andy by George Radmore. Perhaps the detective wanted Michelle and Andy to fact check some of the details. The secondary heading on the document states.

Strikeforce Chelmsbrook Murder of Bronwyn Winfield.

There are several hundred separate entries spanning almost forty years. Everything that the police regarded as potentially relevant to their investigation is in the Chronology document. The entries are in columns under these headings day and time, then occurrence or event, then reference document, and then matters arising. The first entry is dated nineteen sixty nine.

Jonathan Winfield and Sybil Green meet while students at high school. Nineteen seventy Jonathan and Sybyl commence sexual relationship while Sybil fourteen years old. Nineteen seventy two, Sybil falls pregnant to Jonathan while still fifteen years old. Parents decide they should marry. Winfields suddenly ban Sybil from seeing Jonathan in March or April nineteen seventy two. November nineteen seventy two, Sybil gives birth to Sonya early nineteen seventy three. Jonathan denies paternity.

Before going further, some important points need to be clarified. Sybil Green is a pseudonym. We are not identifying the woman who was just fifteen when she conceived a child during a relationship with John. John is older than the woman we are calling Sybil by a couple of years. When I opened the email from Michelle read and read the names in the chronology document, I checked the records of the Australians Bronman Facebook discussion group as an administrator

I got a message, am I a message request from a lady called Sonya.

And that's why this episode is fundamentally different now to the one that I had planned. Instead of revolving around John's claims and John's shifting version in his nineteen ninety eight police interview of who, What, When, where and why at the time of Bromwin's disappearance, this first episode of season two is the story of a woman fathered by John, a woman who wants nothing to do with her father apart from her objective to help Bromwin and her family

All right, yeah, that's fine.

Saturday morning.

Saturday morning.

Tell me about this Facebook message.

Well, I actually got it at five pm yesterday, but I didn't process it until today. And it says hello Andy and read JW. Does Jodie realize she is not his firstborn child. I'm asking you this as if she does, great, But if not, then I'm thinking that could throw a spanner in the works of her bond with her father. Perhaps the words needed for her and Lauren to question

Maddie, you are rock sol girl.

Your parents must be over the moon beaming proud.

I know who this woman is, and I'm so glad that she's made contact.

I didn't realize who she was until I spoke to you about it.

Well, when you called me a short time ago and you said, hey, I got this message from a woman called Sonya, I immediately knew what you were going to tell me.

Yeah, which is crazy that she reached out.

She is the daughter of a woman who was fifteen when she became pregnant in nineteen seventy two. And my understanding is that the parents of John and Sonya's mother agreed or decided that they should marry.

So was that after his daughter was born.

That must have been before she was born. He was older than her. From the documents I've seen, Maddie, Sonya was born in November nineteen seventy two. The relationship had just fallen apart, and they'd gone from being prepared to marry to estrangement. And this poor young girl is having John's baby. So when you got that message from Sonya, what were you thinking?

I was still stuck trying to figure out how she knew this and how she was related.

And she does describe a little cryptically in that key sentence, doesn't she It.

Wasn't as though she said I am John's first daughter.

She's asking whether Jody knows that Sonya is actually John's first child? But why is that important to Sonya?

Too?

Kind of breakdown that layer of trust that John and Jody have shown that they have with each other, that maybe Jody will take a step back and reevaluate what her father has told her and all the truths he has supposedly told her, and maybe rethink that not everything is the truth.

That does sound like it's part of her motivation.

And I don't know many people who know about this.

Yeah, it's been a very well kept secret. I don't think she's had any contact at all with her father.

I get that impression because she says pre nineteen seventy two, I don't really have any info on him, which means since she was born, she hasn't ever known him. Quite possibly, her mother told her who her father was, but she never had a relationship with him. And since this podcast has come out, she's heard about him and she's felt that she should reach.

Out this deathbed point. What do you take from that.

Well, it's almost as though her grandmother, Sonya's grandmother knew that John wasn't a good person. Her grandmother had this inkling that something wasn't quite right with him, and the fact that she felt the need to tell Sonya on her deathbed. We don't know much about John previous to his first two wives. This is the earliest recollection of any kind of relationship. It seems as though his behavior wasn't good.

Then he's taken no responsibility for the care and upbringing of his first child.

He doesn't seem like Sonya wants to know her father. It's almost as though she wants Jodie to know the truth about her father and Lauren to know that their father isn't as great as he may seem. If she really doesn't know, and she doesn't know this information, it might cause her to take a little step back and kind of really think about it.

Sonya's mother would have been John's first wife if things had turned out differently.

If everything else played out, four wives or by the time he was thirty Now, honestly, to me, that's weird behavior. Who knows about this and just hasn't mentioned it. If Lauren's aware, if Jodie's aware, I don't know. Would he have confided that in them when they got older.

It also seems from the tone of that message that she's formed a view of John, which is the same view that the police and others have formed of John as being responsible for Bromwin's disappearance.

It's just stuff coming out of the wouldwork like this that changes a lot in terms of someone's character and skeletons in the closet could.

Say, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who's to become involved in a physical relationship with a girl. She's far too young, But he's also very young too. He's not a man in his thirties. His brain is still developing at that age. However, on the character point, the failure to be prepared to try to support her contribute to her upbringing and education and her needs.

This does add into John's behaviors and patterns as well of John's parents and his mother, and the constant need to push the women away if they step on the wrong toes or something happens. We know he tried to pay off Jenny with Jodie for John to have City.

Maddie is referring to evidence given to the police by John's first wife, Jennifer in the lead up to the two thousand and two inquest. You heard some of it in episode ten.

I remember John's mother saying something like no woman walks out on my son. I recall John's parents turned up one day with John and they.

Picked up Jody and walked out the door.

Grandma Winfield said, when you get your act together, you can have a back. I blame myself now, but at the time I didn't understand the laws properly, and I was depressed and having problems with my life. And after this John and myself initiated divorce proceedings. John offered me twenty thousand dollars so he could keep custody of Jody. I told him to stick his twenty thousand dollars and take good care of Jody, and that's how John ended

There's this controlling nature that kind of threads through the family, trying to gain control of the situation and pushing people away when it doesn't.

Go the way they want.

It would have been John's parents at that stage making the decisions for John, I would assume, especially his mother, given how much we know he adored her and how much of a part she had in his life. I do definitely think it would have been more of his mother's decision to get Sonya and her mother out of his life. Why are the women not being kept around? Is it based on they're not perfect enough for John? Or no, they're not perfect enough for John's mother.

Shortly before her disappearance, Bromwin wrote about John, his and her unhappiness, perfectionism, and John's mother. Here it is in the first episode.

I drifted away from John as he became more and more depressed about the house being less than immaculate and the death of his mother, the only woman he thought was perfect. Eventually I switched off and became cold inside. He had a heart of ice and always criticized me no matter what I did. The man was cold and heartless and gave nothing but expected everything.

Have you replied to Sonya, No, not yet. What do you intend to say?

Well, I was going to thank her for reaching out. I'm not sure it could have been easy. This is her father. She's never had a relationship with him, and I'm pretty sure she knows she never will. But she also has sisters out there, half sisters.

I feel like she wants to help.

She feels as though this is the starting of his lies. I mean it's time. She said she was waiting for the right time. Then I really think that time is now, I guess before it's too late.

Feeling like she has a connection with Crystal and admiring from Afar, you and Andy as she's listening to everything. At the same time, it seems she suspects that her biological dad killed a beautiful woman called Bromin.

Maybe she has that thought in the back of her mind that he.

Could have been her mother.

With Jenny's statement as well, and how John was violent with her.

He'd yell at me and he made him scared of him. He said to me, I'll kill you if you say that again. And at the time he had his hands around my throat and was squeezing. I remember I managed to say go ahead. Into my surprise, he kept squeezing me around the throat. I managed to kick him in the groin and I got away from him and hitting the outside laundry.

After hearing the podcast, maybe she counts herself lucky that she didn't grow up with her father like John.

Does she say anywhere in her note to you that it's confidentially No, she didn't. Can you just mention to her that you've shared it with me and we've talked about it, and that we would really like to chat to her. Yeah, we're happy to chat to her on background or off the record at first, if she wants to get comfortable.

Yeah, definitely, for sure.

I just think it's honestly insane. The developments that have happened with in this case are crazy. We need to dive right back into John's childhood. It might be hard to get there, but I think that will answer a lot his relationship with his parents when he was younger, what he went through in school, everything that was really

Recording stopped, Maddie wrote back to Sonya, and then I phoned her. We worked out that at the exact time she was assigning to reach out to Andy and Maddie, the police chronology document naming her as John's daughter was being recovered by Michelle and sent to me. Sonya sounded completely unemotional, unaffected. During our twenty minutes on the phone. She matter of factly told me that her biological father

Grandma raised me well.

We rowed the lift and crossed the floor of the newsroom with the editor, Ryan Keene, who let us use his office. I'm just going to use my phone, Ye to do the recording. Sonya started telling her story. The mother of two teenage boys tethered it to her grandmother, who died in April twenty eighteen. In her last months, Sonya was with the elderly woman almost every.

Day, and during that time a lot of conversations. We had stories, who told secrets, who shared. Back in nineteen seventy two, things were great financially, and my grandma pregnancy thought it would be a great idea to separate the two of them for my mother's benefit mental and emotional reasons,

When you saw the man you know is your father for the first time. It was a photograph of him in relation to this podcast, Romlan correct must have come as quite a shop.

Honestly, I text my mom straight away and said, I'm growing my hair.

You've just taken your calf after when I first saw you downstairs in the lobby. Even it was struck by the likeness.

That part with my mum has been difficult. There's a photo on my great aunt's TV and it's a photo of me in a school uniform at twelve or thirteen. And that photo on the front page where he has a mustache when he's younger. That's me. That is that photo less than mustache. And until I saw that, I never actually got what mum was saying, because sometimes she'd say to me, I, forgot's sake, can you go and

There a name of a man on your birth certificate?

It's blank or father unknown. I believe that your maternal family was one hundred percent responsible to prove paternity. There was no money for the test needed to prove what they needed to prove. She would have been fourteen when their relationship started, fifteen.

As it progressed, John had moved on by late nine teen seventy two. Sonya was born in November of that year. He is more from Jennifer Mason's statement to police, which you heard in episode ten.

In approximately December nineteen seventy two, when I was sixteen years of age, I met a young man named John Winfield and we.

Formed a relationship.

We'd only been going out for about three months when I fell pregnant. John Winfield and I married when I was about three months pregnant.

When Sonya was born, her father would have been a few months shy of his eighteenth birthday. Her mother had just turned sixteenth.

I've known what the girls have looked like for many many years. Strangely enough, would have been a very very early two thousands. I was mistaken for Jodie in a music shop in Byron Bay. I had long hair then, and it wasn't until many years later that I realized, oh my gosh, she's mistaken me for Jodie Winfield. Fifteen years ago, I was mistaken again as one of the girls. I don't recall which one. Someone came up and said, I know you, I know you and your sister from

You mentioned that you had seen photographs of the daughters, and I think you're referring to Jody, Lauren and Crystal.

Correct. My wife, her best friend from school's friends with Jody.

Sonya explained that for about twenty years she had avoided going to her wife's best friend's house in Lennox Head. She recently asked that best friend.

Do you know these people, but I know she does. When she was like, oh my god, he's that They refer to him as JTM. She knows him from the local lenox Head IgA.

I asked if her wife's friend had talked to Jodi Wimfield about the existence of her half sister Sonya.

No.

Never, she would never air my laundry. She just knows her socially through Lenox Head their friends.

Sonya had seen photographs of her half sisters Jody and Lauren because of the mutual friend in Lennox Head, coincidentally tagging them on Facebook. That friend was unaware at the time of the biological ties.

Gosh, this is my boys were in nappies a long time ago, and so I clicked on and I was like, oh my gosh, I can see the resemblance.

Have you wanted to reach out to Jodie or the other girls?

Never? Never, I feel so thankful that my grandmother had the foresight that she had. I feel very, very sorry for the girls more Crystal. I think that's because she knew her mum. You know your mom at ten, you miss your mom at ten. I feel really sorry for Crystal. She must have so many stories going around in her mind. But as far as any of the Windfield, I don't like them. I don't dislike them. They exist and I exist.

When you were growing up, Sonya, and when you were old enough to understand that you were being raised by your mother and your grandparents, did you ask questions? Did you yearn to know who was your biological father?

There was a gentleman in my life who is still in my life. He's been a fantastic father to me. He's been an exceptional dad to me. He's been all I've known and all I have needed as a father. We have an awesome relationship as father and daughter. I didn't come from him, He didn't make me, but we're father and daughter.

Were you at the same time ever yearning to know who your dad was biologically No?

Never, I've never felt the need to reach out to establish any connection. My grandmother was troubled. She was worried for me maturing, not knowing things like my medical history. And I said to her, Grammy, you're just being eastily you're on your Deathbedge, you're overthinking, You're worrying, Like, just

When Bromwin disappeared in May nineteen ninety three, John's daughter was six months away from her twenty first birthday. In September of that year, John wrote to the family of one of Roman's former boyfriends, Mark Guthrie. Mark and his family believed at the time that he was the biological father of Crystal, who was then aged ten. John took the moral high ground in his letter. He explained to Mark Guthrie what paternal responsibility really meant. Here's a reminder

Mark has never personally or in writing approached us in regards to access to Crystal. Two. We have always been locatable. We have always been in the telephone book. Had he really wanted to, Mark could have found us at any time. Not only have you failed to mention the possibility of child support, something that has been my responsibility for almost eleven years, but you have failed to consider Crystal's feelings and what she wants to do.

About this delicate situation.

I have a responsibility to Crystel to introduce her to her real biological father, and I will. The lack of any offers of financial support in almost eleven years also

If you have never had it, you can't miss it. So as a person I've never had him, so I don't know him, so I've never missed him. I don't know what it means to miss having a sister. I do know that I have no inclination to have them in my life. That was his choice back in the seventies. You can make a choice, that's fine, but you can't live your life denying. If the girls need to question

I spoke to Crystal yesterday and I said, have you ever known of any other siblings? And she said, no, no, there's no one else. When do you think you understood that your biological father's surname was Wingfield? Sonia said that she was in her early twenties and her mother needed to have.

Surgery and she was extremely paranoid that she wasn't going to make it. And that's the first time she told me his actual full name. I recall the conversation. I said to her, why are you telling me this? You know I'm not interested. Why now, in this moment of our lives, are you telling me? And I was more worried about surgery. I know she loved him. I know she was smitten by young sexy sir for John first loves that. Whether she was his, I don't know. There

Many of us would jump straight onto Google and start looking for someone, but you never did that. You didn't want to check him out. You didn't understand the case that the police had tried to build. Sonya recalled having to go to Balana with her mother for a meeting with detectives investigating Bromin's alleged murder.

I mean I didn't want to go because I wasn't interested. I still don't really know why I was in there that day.

Her mother made a police statement at the time.

I never researched. I was never interested. I did feel. However, on one episode of the plot cast, you were driving in Lennox and I was in the car with you in my mind.

Literally around the corner at five ten minutes, I can take you there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll take you for a drive. We call this the Headlands. That's where I see John walking around here.

A millionaires role.

I call it he bought a dual block, one for himself and one for Jody. Always get him confused, Sorry, Ledley, now here we are here. Yeah, he bought that block and that block the house next saw that to jobs. That's a fortress.

That is very odd looking.

It a big needs of him inside.

That's his car and the driveway.

That's him there right, very ecclusive. As you can see.

You're sitting up there in your smug castor.

Seemed like a terrible person do.

This has weighed on you for a long time.

Because I have a sister, and if it hadn't been my family, I just don't know how I would be able to handle that.

She was a friend and a good friend at the time. We'd still be friends today. I know we would.

I was sitting on the footstool next to my bed. I got on Google Maps, and before you'd finished speaking, I'd worked out his address. I google Maps searched the house and there was a photo of him on the Google Maps of his house standing over what looked like a shower area, an outside shower. That's the first and the last time.

Yeah, I know that photo you're talking about. We paused to open the packet of biscuits she had brought.

Grandma always said, you have to blame someone to the table, no matter where you're going, you have to take something to the table, old Scotch finger.

How's your mum doing.

The relationship between my mum and I is amazing.

Sonya told me her mother had been following the case again with the podcast.

Regarding the podcast, I think she's like everybody else, wondering what the police were are and will be doing. We're very hopeful that you guys will get a good outcome for the girls, whatever that may be. She's content that I'm content. Every now and then I'm forced to think of him because my mum will bring something garp. There was a time I lost patience with her, which was not long after she found out that Bronwin Winfield was

Coincidences like these sometimes seem more likely to be calmer.

It might give the girls a different light to see their father in. You know, if you can't be honest and open about it now that yes, I got a girl pregnant on the beach in Cronulla in nineteen seventy two, I own it. I did it, and I lied about it.

When you say he lied about it, are you referring to his denial of patunity.

Because he may as well have lied about the whole relationship, which is I think what broke my mother's heart.

The shame and stigma of teenage pregnancy must have shaped some of the decisions made by Sonya's grandparents.

They thought that they would pretend that I was Grandma's baby, because no one had actually seen Mom pregnant as such, because she was a very slim girl, quite slight. So there was this thing I will just say that it's Grandma's new baby. My auntie, who was like eight at the time, was playing silly buggers on the stairs and fell. Mom came out, Grandma came out, the neighbors saw Mom's big belly and the couple was won.

And then where were you raised?

In the shire?

Sonia told me that she had listened carefully to the first ten episodes of the Broman podcast series, as well as these subscriber only bonus episodes of eleven and twelve. Have you formed a view?

I think I formed my grandmother's view. My opinion of him is what she feed into me.

What did she feed into you of him?

How different my life would have been with him in it? For the negative?

For what reasons? What did she describe in his personality or character?

His controllingness? She said, him and his mother had a look in their eye, a look that you wouldn't cross. And the day she saw that look was the day she knew and she saw the look about three and a half, four months into the pregnancy, she said. Prior to the pregnancy, he was very welcomed within the house. It's come over for dinner all the time. The whole couple think they were boyfriend and girlfriend for a long time. They were in a relationship. It's not like she had

Sonya spoke of the nineteen eighties movie Puberty Blues. The Australian classic is based on the book of the same name, written in the seventies by Gabrielle Carey and Kathy Lett. It weaves a story about teenage girls growing up in the Shire and around Cronulla in a culture of underage sex, panel vans, surfing and deeply entrenched misogyny.

Who is he one of the boys he's sending down at the beach Worksy's old man and he's got a panel band. Oh god, do I look it right?

Routable?

If you meet Bruce Bruce, Debbie hie, yeah, ghetto Bruce, go for it.

Well, come on, he won't fight.

Will you go around with me? Yeah? Give have a good time.

I was conceived on Valentine's Day seventy two, so I was born nine months after that. It just all blew up, And Grandma believes it all blew up over money.

They'd spoken about married joining. His mother's bond was unbreakable.

At the same time. Your grandmother wanted to separate her daughter and John.

Not until mid pregnancy when it started to get nasty. On the Winfields part. It was all about what John said and what John's mother said, and Mum having any say in her pregnant self was not going to be allowed. She was going to be controlled. Grandma remembers Mom coming home and they'd been out for dinner. He used to like to eat Chinese food. The meal was sweet and sour pork. Grandma said that. Mom's like, oh, John's such a gentleman. He pulls my chair out for me and

Sonya's mother was badly smeared in the blame game which followed her pregnancy. The decision of John and the Winfield family to walk away from responsibility and formally deny a paternity cut deeply. Sonya's mother was still besotted with John. She had changed her life. She was forced to hide from local busybodies. As her belly grew with John's baby, her wounding over John's claim that he was not the

I remember Grandma saying, missus Winfield. The words were something along the lines of an easy piece of work. Of course, she goes all the way to the city for tech, so here's no saying that it's John's baby, because she's an easy piece of work.

Sonya knew from our first conversation on the telephone that I had read about her on Father's Day in a sixteen year old police document recovered by Bromwin's sister in law, Michelle read, that's the document that mentions Sonya and her birth in nineteen seventy two. I told Sonya in that call that Michelle was going through her emails to make

I pressed send, and I was like, Okay, well, there you go. You've done it. But I felt so relieved that I pressed send.

And what happens with these podcasts investigations is people listen and hear other good people coming forward for the first time disclosing information that they've held pretty close for a long time, and that has a very powerful effect on listeners who also have information. And he think I'm alone. Other people are sharing information that's more or less valuable than mine. I should just do it.

I had a feeling the same time that you were reading the document.

Hypothetical seem John Winfield makes contact with you and says, look, i'm your father and I want to you and tell you a bit about why I haven't been in touch. How do you respond?

I would probably not respond. I don't feel he's worthy of a response from me. I'm not a Winfield. I know who I am, and I don't need anything from him, whether it be an apology, whether it be I still don't believe your mind. I'm complete. If anything that he's reaching out for is something that's going to benefit him, whether it be emotionally, mentally, whatever that's on him, I'm blessed he's not in my life.

Do you have any anger towards.

I don't have anything toward him except oh my god, I've got to grab my hair. And that is just purely for my mum. Obviously, I'm not the most girliest of girls you've ever come across, and Mum is and was a very girly girl. She was very glamorous in the seventies, you know, very petite and beautiful with gorgeous blond hair. Nothing like me. When I saw him on the front page of the paper, I was like, you

From everything I've been told about John, he's extraordinarily tight with money. He would possibly be concerned that any acknowledgment by him of your existence could reduce the wealth that he has and the estate that he has.

It's always about money with Winfield. Grandma always said that, and in nineteen seventy two it was about eleven dollars a week or seventeen dollars a week or whatever. In twenty twenty four it's about ocean front estates. I remember Grandma saying something along the lines of eleven dollars seventeen dollars per week that they didn't want to have to pay for you to.

Be As you listen to the story with the knowledge that the person at the center of it, the person suspected by police and read family of having murdered Promin, knowing that he's your father, are you affected?

I don't think of him as my father. I've managed to successfully be unaffected by it. As I said, I feel for.

Crystal, there seems to be still a curiosity in you, because otherwise why would you be listening to it.

Back when I was in ballin a police station, I didn't understand why I was there, but I also left there thinking this is going to be finished off soon.

Would love me to show you some of the start of that documentary. Referring to yes please, I started to make a point apparently your dad's sorry, I shouldn't callim your dad Sonya's face changed, she appeared uncomfortable and excused herself to go to the bathroom.

Just threw me a bit before when you said your dad. Of course he's not and it will never be. No one's actually said those words ever before your you know, But I yeah, sorry about that I understand. Yeah, that's okay. I'm happy if that helps you in any way with your investigations. It's actually really nice to know that my grandmother's eye for detail was so detailed when my mom

My God, like.

Thank you, Goma, But it could have been me and my mom. I think she was spot on with the controlling and the dominating.

What would you say to Lauren, Crystal and Jodi about their beliefs and what they've been.

Told, even if they deep down inside, no, the answer is going to hurt them. Ask the question anyway. Jody's coming up to an age where she's going to, whether she likes it or not, biologically, start questioning things. As you're coming up to fifty and you're going through menopause and everything, think inside dey's changing, and you can have

You said before that you were very hopeful there would be a good outcome. What do you believe is a good outcome.

For the girls? Then? What happened to Bronwyn, the good, the bad, the ugly, whatever it may be, they deserve to know. It's got to be the heaviest load for them to carry.

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