Scott Dtway Commons spirit hell hot Low. We're gonna being on Ryan Michael, who's a writer for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The statistics for this show quite a bit and you can find him on Twitter at the Ryan Michael Right how you know this sevening? Hi, Ben doing well? Thanks for having me on. Absolutely Hey, you had the John Elway Hall of Fame article and for those of you who need to link to it, and you
can find it on his Twitter at the Ryan Michael. But run us through that article that you did on John Elway and a little bit about what you do in terms of the statistics on quarterbacks that you put out on Twitter. Sure. So the Quarterback Retrospective series that I write for the Pro Football Hall of Fame is really an opportunity to take a dive at excellence at the quarterback position over the last eighty years. So sometimes it's an entire career, sometimes
it's the season, sometimes it's a single game. In all these case, I wanted to take a look back at his final year in ninety eight, and with the twenty five year anniversary last Wednesday of his final game in Super Bowl thirty three, wanted to take a dive into what that would like ran when you look at the quarterback situation and the history of that particular position. If I'm not mistaken in your terms, you feel as though Peyton Manning is
the best quarterback who ever lace the true or false? I do, okay. So with that being said, and knowing as though there's a Terry Bradshaw, there's a Joe Montague, there's a John Elway that you wrote about, and there's a Tom Brady, what is it about Peyton that you feel sets him apart from those guys and makes him the bona fide go? Sure? You know, when when I look at the top three quarterbacks ever played a position, I would put them with Manning at number one and Tom Brady and
Drew Brees at two and three, and those spots are interchangeable. I realized most folks put Drew down perhaps to the bottom of the top ten, and I would say the majority of folks these days would have Brady at number one. E's to go. That's the nickname, and it's not just the nickname
something that a lot of people feel. So I'll focus more on the Manning Brady rivalry because that's always fun to talk about when I look at Peyton's resume, you're looking at a guy who, at the time of his retirement threw for more touchdowns than anybody in the history of the game, through for more
yards than anybody in the history of the game. And when people talk about the Tom Brady Peyton Manning rivalry, if you're in the Manning camp or you're in the Brady camp, I don't think we necessarily disagree so much on the specific details. Fans and analysts just have a difference of opinion as far as
what criteria correlates more with excellence on the field. So if you ask most folks why they feel Tom Brady to go, they're probably going to mention the fact that he has seven Super Bowl rings and ten Super Bowl appearances as their first point. And to that I would make the argument that I've never felt that Super Bowl rings are the best measure of how well the quarterback position is
played. Not to take anything away from some of the previous Super Bowl champions, but when you see quarterbacks like Jeff Hostetler, Jim McMahon, trend Bilfer, Eli Manning as two and the year he won his first he led the league and picks Joe Flacco, Nick Foles, even Peyton himself in his final year. None of those were elite quarterbacks or at least elite quarterback seasons, And so it depends on what your measure is. People don't disagree that Manning's
won more MVP than anybody in NFL history. He has five, Rogers as four, Brady United as farb Jim Brown at three, Montana Young one of Mahomes each have two. Mannings the seven time first team All Pro selection via the Associated Press, and nobody in the Super Bowl era besides Peyton as more than four. Rogers has four, Brady, Montana Marina favy On each have three. And the records that Manning said he did so at a younger age. He became the NFL's all time touchdown path later at the age of thirty
eight. Tom Brady didn't break that record until he was forty two. Peyden became the leagues all time waiting passer at thirty nine. Brady didn't break that record until he was forty three. So if you look at the way you adjust for arrow when it comes to statistics, Peyton's numbers are a lot better than even the raw numbers. So when people look at just the raw numbers, you're going to see that Tom has more completions, more yards, more
touchdowns. But what they're not taking a closer look at is the fact that there was a considerable gap in the era that those two players play the game. Peyton started fifty games before Tom had his first start, and Tom started one hundred and twenty seven games after Peyton retired. That's one hundred and seventy seven games of a swing in both directions. That is not beneficial to the way we look at Manning's numbers, and it's very beneficial to the way we
look at Tom's numbers. So statistically speaking, Peyton Manning was a much more dominant quarterback, even for the law numbers don't necessarily reflect that. Is there any single statistic that we can boil it down to that suggests that one quarterback is better than another. No, No, you keep looking for them. You know they're advanced metrics, certainly DVOA total GPR. You know you can look at those metrics, But I don't think there's anyone all encompassing stat If
there were, then it would be a lot easier. Right. So, if you're boiling it down the rings Tom Brady's re build. But if you're boiling it down to my measure, which is totality of on field performance in relation to context the playing situation, I think the choice is now well.
But that being said, Ryan, how do we look at this Sunday's matchup Kansas City versus San Francisco, Knowing as though Patrick Mahomes, if he was able to come away with the victory, you look at his age of twenty eight, he would have therefore gone to four Super Bowls and have three rings,
and two of them being back to back. So where would he fall in the early echelon of the quarterback As though you evaluate Patrick Mahomes is really an anomaly, I already have him as a top twenty five all time quarterback and I said before the Conference championship games that if he were to defeat Baltimore,
if there were any doubt, there shouldn't be any more doubt. He's a first Battle of Hall of Famer no matter what happens on Sunday, no matter what happens for the rest of his career, and not specifically just because of the Conference Championship rings in the Super Bowl rings, but just how well
he plays the position right now. He's in the middle of what's been the worst year of his career, which is a hell of a compliment when you consider how high his floor is. So I think that Patrick Mahomes could walk away from the Super Bowl on Sunday, win or loss, as an all time great quarterback. And if we're talking prime for time, he's on a short list of quarterbacks that I would say are comparable to Peyton Manning at the
peak of his power. We had a question coming on the text line and they asked, how has Marino when adjusted for era, Marino is also one of the most dominant quarterbacks of all time. I mean he retired as Manning did, as breathed later and then Grady as the NFL's all time passing later. If you go back to his nineteen eighty four season, he threw for
five thousand and eighty four yards in a sixteen game schedule. He threw for forty eight touchdowns, and he broke the record that was held by Ya Tittle. Hya Tittle threw thirty six touchdowns in nineteen sixty three. So that record stood for twenty one years and Marino absolutely obliterated it. So if we're talking the greatest single season of all time. Nineteen eighty four is on that short list of the best there's ever been, but Marino's right on up there in
the top five. Adjusted for era, his numbers are far more impressive than what you would think just looking at the raw numbers. Now, Ran, do you think that more fans should give credit to Jake Plumber opposed to what they actually give And the reason I say that is because we know the history and what Peyton Manning has done this league and did as a member of the Broncos. We know that both he and John Ewick brought the trophy here to
Broncos Country. But do you feel as though Jake Plumber is kind of under value because he is kind of smashed between those two guys one hundred percent. I mean, it's virtually impossible not to live in the shadow of John Elway and then retroactively to live in the shadow we're just talking about great Broncos quarterbacks, to live in the shadow of what Peyton did his time here in Denver. But John, I'm sorry, Jake Plumber was one of the best quarterbacks
in Broncos franchise history. Helped bring the team to a conference championship game and helped bring them back to a level of respectability that we didn't quite have in the wake of losing John. So I would say that that Jake Plumber is, especially his tenure in Denver's quite underrated. You mentioned earlier that you have Drew Brees as one of the top five quarterbacks. I tend to agree with you. I will leave you listened him at number two, or at least
a co share of number two. And I have a question about that. If you have a quarterback that's that high and they only got one super Bowl? Is that on the quarterback? Is that on the support of cast Is that on the coach? What does that say about a coach like Sean Payton, who's reputation as a genius means he, you know, he had an all time great quarterback number two all tomic. What did you and and still only came away with one Super Bowl? I would say that that's more of
an indictment on the nature of team sports. And I think that if you're going to ask that question, especially if we're if we're talking about Super Bowl appearances and success in the post season, we have to look at how Drew played and on a game by game basis, Drew Brees averaged more completions, higher completion percentage, more passing yards per game, more touchdowns per game, fewer interceptions per game, higher yards per attempt in Manning or Brady, who
were virtual carbon copies of each other on a per game basis in the postseason. So when you see a quarterback who arguably performed better than Manning and Brady, who are the top two or two of the top three on a lot of people's lists, that's more of an indictment on I don't want you can't throw it all on Sean, but on the coaching staff, the totality of those rosters, And in a way, I always felt that Breeze was punished
for making the Saints better than they had any business being. When you carry a team and you carry that much deadweight and you produce that many seasons where you're winning ten, eleven, twelve thirteen games, you almost forget that a lot of those Saints rosters didn't belong with number one or number two seeds. So when it ends poorly, and certainly, Drew Brees probably had the worst luck of any quarterback in recent history in terms of how a lot of those
playoff games ended. That's more an indictment on just the nature of team sports. Drew Brees in terms of his performance in both the regular season and the postseason, speaks for itself. I'm going to stretch you just a little here, but this next question is based on your recent memory, So just kind of keep that in mind. And with that being said, the quarterback that's had the best performance in a Super Bowl and ooh, a single super Bowl.
I mean, you know, obviously, if we're talking recent history, what Pat Mahomes did to the Eagles last year is towards the top of that list. What Steve Young did to San Diego, what Joe Montana did to Denver, So you wanted to kind of get into into that game. I mean, Montana was virtually perfect. He completed twenty two of twenty nine passes two hundred and ninety seven yards, five touchdowns, no picks, a one
hundred and forty seven point six passer rating. And you compare that to what Elway did ten of twenty six for one hundred and eight yards, no touchdowns, two picks, and a nineteen point four passer rating. And I mean Montana's passer rating was one hundred and twenty eight point two point fire than the opposing quarterback. And the Broncos. You know, a lot of people give John rightfully so, a lot of credit for helping to carry those those Broncos
teams in the eighties to three Super Bowl appearances. But the nineteen eighty nine Denver Broncos led the league in points surrendered, that was the number one scoring defense in the and Joe Montano in the San Francisco forty nine ers dropped I'm trying to think off the top of my head. I think it was fifty five points, fifty five points against Denver, something like that. Those are
all all really really good choices. You know. One of the things that I've noticed out of your Twitter account you can find him at the Ryan Michael on Twitter, is your if useuld praise for Matt Ryan someone who Yeah, and I think that Ryan was a very very good quarterback. I think he was very outdrated and I appreciate seeing those stats that you put out about him. But for whatever reason, his reputation does not certainly match up, I
think, with the productivity. And why do you suppose that is? It's it's I would say mostly based on disappointment in the postseason. The regular season numbers were elite, they were great, but Matt had the misfortune of playing in the same era as Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, and Peyton Manning. That was the strongest quarterback generation in the history of pro football in my opinion. So there were times where he was better than all of
those guys, but more often than not he fell beneath those guys. And when you look at the disappointment in the postseason, he's always going to be remembered for twenty eight to three, and people will completely overlook the fact that he had the highest pass rating in the Super Bowl to this day since Joe Montana did against Denver. I think it was one hundred and forty four point
one something something along those lines. And people also overlook the fact that Atlanta's defense ranked twenty seven in points surrendered that year, so out of the fifty seven Super Bowls that have been played, that is the second worst scoring defense to ever get that far. If you have a twenty seven strings scoring defense, you should probably be winning six or seven games in a lot of cases, so you know the ending is not the ending that anybody wanted that would
be the first person to tell you that. But individually, on a per dropback basis, he played at a much higher level than Brady did in that game. And he also had the misfortune of losing a coin flip and not part participating it over time. So what more can you do? I guess you know, it would have been nicer to have a few of those plays back. But in totality, he played very well in that game. But he's never going to be remembered for doing that because all anyone's going to talk
about is twenty eight to three. It's interesting that we having a conversation about Matt Ryan and how he is going to be remembered based on the stats that he's having. So I'll ask you this, I mean, are we close to looking at Buffalo's Josh Allen in the same way as though most of us look at Matt Ryan. It's possible. It's possible. You know, the way Josh has played the position over the last few years certainly is comparable to
the way that Matt played at the teak of his power. Now, obviously Matt Ryan sustained success for longer, but you are seeing a somewhat comparable situation in terms of Buffalo collectively as a team over underachieving rather in the postseason. So I think that's a fair comparison. Well, Ryan, appreciate your time. You guys can check him out a v Ryan Michael on Twitter, and and certainly I appreciate all the stats and stuff that you put out there,
a lot of great stuff. You guys don't want to follow him. Appreciate you taking some time out tonight. Yes, sir, I appreciate you having me on. Let's do it again. Absolutely, take care, Bye. Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter. Love. He just has all kinds of just informative data. And for those of you who don't know, Ryan
does a lot of the stat work that we get here on BCT. He sends me a show sheets and a lot of other stuff that a lot of these statistics that are behind the scenes numbers you wouldn't think of kind of stuff. He does a lot of that for us. So I thought that it was interesting, you know, looking at how Peyton manning his view and Ryan's mind and from a statistical standpoint in comparison to some of the other quarterbacks, and looking at Matt Ryan's career. It wasn't as though Matt Ryan was a
bus He was an MVP right. He had a cessation of season under Kyle Shanahan, which makes me think that Brod Purdy could have an all time game on Sunday against the Chiefs. But with that being said about Ryan, even his numbers are statistically great, he still isn't one of those quarterbacks when we talk about some of the top quarterbacks in the league, his name does not
come up. And they would always go back to that twenty eight to three fourth quarter lead, eight minutes and thirty three seconds remaining in that Super Bowl. That kind of deltim almighty blow as far as his name being mentioned among the top quarterbacks to play in this league. Yeah, and you know how
much that was him though. I mean, you go back to the twenty three lead and the Falcons were driving, and they dialed up they were inside a field goal range, and then they were dialed up passing plays at that point in time. So you blaming Kyle. I'm not to play calling on that. Absolutely, See you can't. I've had this conversation with a lot of Falcons and I say, at that particular point you pass. The game
was on point. The pageots had no answer for it. So one running back missed his let's pick up when Dante Hidealer looking right at him on the side. You can call it execution if you want. What are you doing? Dial on that up to begin with you're up twenty eighty three. Play. The only enemy you had left is the clock. The clock kept stopping because of what you did. And then you got him sacked and took him out of field goal. Really he didn't get him sacked. The running back
got him sack. Calling to play where the running back was in a position to get him sacked. But the game was on point. Then do you need it any or if you didn't need it anymore, you hit the point where you just need to put points and take time you could have. You know what the higher EPA play was there, kneeling the ball three times and kicking a field goal, says the high sight is twenty twenty knowing his own I said it at the time though it's what he's seen happen. But I
saw it at the time. They were throwing the ball at the time, like, what are he doing throwing the ball? Just run the ball and kicked the field goal and you put it out of reach. Tom Brady's gonna score some points to half. The Patriots could not throw down Julio Jones because they could stop me. They found a way. I'm just saying, like I knew, like I remember at that exact moment in tom where I was sitting there, like Tom Brady's gonna come, gonna put some kind of comeback
together here, all right. So take that out of the equation, make it thirty one to three, make it a four school, four touchdown game. So here's what you're missing though, as they didn't listen. Is he easy to blame Kyle and saves on the place. I'm not blaming all of it, okay, but at some point the Falcons defense needed to make a play and they did not make a play. But we need to take commercial break. Roncos Country to Night rolls on it to this