Pushkin.
Big Willie is back, and he's traded as larger than life, excessively positive raps for something more complex and dark but equally inspiring. Anyone following Will Smith's trajectory the last handful of years, or who read his wonderful autobiography, knows that he's been on a powerful journey of self discovery and healing. It's left him wide open to be a bit of a different artist than he's been in the past, and
it's also drawn him back into music. Will's new project, based on a true story, will be coming out in three parts this year, with part one dropping in March. We discuss where he's at as a creator on this new album and go through his decades long career in music, which starts with his teen years back in Philly. It was a real pleasure talking to someone as multi dimensional and equally open and honest as Will so enjoy This
is Broken Record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with Will Smith from Amazon Music Studio one twenty six. To see the video version of this episode, visit YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast, or click on the link in this episode description.
Man Will Smith. Will Smith is a brother.
Doing this.
I'm really excited exit we have.
We've hasked like, you know, a number of incredible any number of incredible guests on the show, but Man, to have to have you is just a real honor.
You know, Thank you. Man. I'll try not to disappoint.
I know you won't.
We're talking a little bit about Quincy. Just yeah, you know I met you. I was in Havana, Cuba, wow, randomly, and you know what it is in Havanah like there's no you can bear these he there's internet and you can't get in nothing really blackouts a see you, nothing
really quite works. So I was walking around, I was lost, looking for a restaurant in downtown Havana, and I saw a bunch of satellite trucks and as with my boys, like this is that's a little that's a little weird, just considering the situation, the infrastructure.
Situation around there. What's this?
So we walk up and we asked some There's some Cubans like looking up the steps.
Like hey, what's going on.
I was just like, we don't know, all right, So I just walked up the steps. I guess because I was American, they didn't question it.
I walk in.
I see Esperanza Spalding in the foyer and I just met her the week before. I go, She goes, I got to I'm packing. I'm literally about to catch a flight, but you should go upstairs. There's a bunch of bunch going on upstairs. I go, go upstairs. So we walk up like five flights of this old beautiful uh Theater in downtown Havana and the old Tavana and.
A bunch crazy music legends, crazy music legends, Valdez, a Cuban music legends, Handcott.
Then I see you. That was wild? There was Quincy was what was that? What was that?
It was the International Jazz International Jazz Fest. You didn't eve know what's going on? Man?
Yeah?
And I saw Quinn you you left pretty quickly when after I got there. But then I saw Quincy at some point sitting at the table by himself. I go, that's kind of wild. I'm gonna go say hi. Yeah, so just like hey shake his hands and want to say hello. Wind up happening a two hour dinner, Wow kicking exchange in for us exactly how Quincy is kept a friendship tally, you know, And this is just like it was unbelievable.
Yeah. Nah, he was at his you know, he loved people. That was this thing, like everybody was so interesting to him. He saw everybody as like a work of art, you know, and he was always looking and wanted to know where you came from and where you grew up, and you know, he uh, he just loved that kind of interaction. When did you first meet him?
I met Quincy actually the.
Night Benny Medina, who was Benny Medina was the real live fresh Prince of bel Air.
So he worked at Warner Records.
He worked at Warner Records, and I met Quincy when the night that Benny took me to Quincy's house to pitch me for the show. And it was you know, walking in and you know, seeing Quincy Jones. Was he I think he just won the Soul Trained Lifetime Achievement Award or something like that. So I was coming to his house after the show and we met and that night he made me auditioned in the living room. That same night I met him, I went for a party to talk and he cleared the living room out, made
me audition for the show Impromptu Out of Nowhere. But he had a script for an old Marris Day and the time, old pilot for mars Day and the time, and he was, hey, just read this script, practice this, go do this. And I auditioned in his living room at a party. That's insane, Yeah he was. He was like that too, did you in that moment? What was your thought process? You know it was so I just flew in. I thought it was a party for Quincy's house, and you know Benny Medina. I had met Benny at Arsenio.
It was during the time that the Arsenio Hall show was like the top of everything. So you know, I had I had gone broke after my first round of success.
That happens about.
Yeah, you shouldn't do that if you if you could it all, avoid going broke after your first round of excess success. You should actually Freudian slip first round of excess.
Yeah yeah, right right, that's how it happened. That it happens.
Yeah, you know, So, you know, I met Bennie Medina and he pitched me the idea. And Benny had gone from Watts to Beverly Hills.
So he was talking.
To Quincy about doing a show about his life where a black kid moves in with a white family in Beverly Hills, and so he takes it and you know, we walk in Quincy's house, and you know, Quincy, he was a little toasty, you know, he you know, it was his house. He was like, he was a little toasty, a little toasty. And he said, hey man, you know Quincy. He said, did Benny talk to you about the show? I was like, yeah, a little bit. He said, yeah, where are you from? I said Philly. He said, all right,
your character's from Philly. And I was like, and literally we've never met in that first he's like, your character's from Philly.
My character okay, and he said all right.
So Benny went from from Watts to Beverly Hills and he said, this is bel Air. His house Quincy's house was actually in bel Air. He said, this is bel Air. So the show's not going to Beverly Hills. The character's going from Philly to bel Air. He said, make Beverly Hills look like public housing. And he said, all right, what's your rap name? And I said, well, you know, I'm with DJ Jazzy Jeff and I'm the I'm the Fresh Prince.
All right, cool, that's the show. The Fresh Prince of bel Air, and.
That's literally how the show got created named, you know, with with Quincy in his living room.
And he was like, Hey, we're gonna have audition.
We gonna have audition, and he just cleared the living room out and I read the script. I've read the you know, the did the couple of scenes and the Moors Days day and the time I failed Mars Day in the time, you know. But yeah, he Quincy was like that he uh uh, he knew how to catch lightning strikes, he knew how to put the right people in the right place and wait for me.
Yeah, it seems like it's kind of it's beautiful that you guys connected the way you did, the way you both straddle music and film and television and just kind of all levels of entertainment. But also, and I don't know if this was like a chicken on the egg scenario, but maybe you were both destined to meet in the sense because you both have a similar also energy and belief and sort of almost as anything as possible sort of sensibility, you know.
Crazy you're saying that.
So my my album is called I'm going back and forth between saying U boats or based on a true story, right, So it's but the name is based on a true story. And you know, I've written so much stuff in the in the last two years, I couldn't get it into one. So rather than you know, trying to jam it into one project, I'm doing it like a television show. So I'm releasing it in seasons. So I have three seasons, so I'm not calling it an album. I'm calling it
season one based on a true story. So season one is called Raven the Wastelam and this this story does have a point, and see season two is a Quincy Jones quote. And season two is called The Gift of Madness. And somebody asked Quincy, They said, Quincy, you know you you you picked Michael Jackson, you picked Oprah Winfrey, and you picked Will Smith, Like what what are you seeing that the rest of us don't see? And he said all three of them have the gift of madness. And
he said they believe that impossible things can happen. And he said that is an absolute necessity for the kind of success that they've achieved. So I named season two of my music is called the Gift of Madness. Now it almost sounds like a gift in a curse either way, you know, I mean, obviously I think it's writ large. I seem that's probably a positive thing.
But there's a.
Certain amount of delusion that is necessary to achieve things that haven't been achieved before. You have to be quote unquote insane. If you're going to attempt something that no one's ever done before, that's almost the definition of insanity.
Right. So there's a there's a certain amount of.
Deluded naivete that is necessary to manifest things that have not been manifest And you know this, this is a thought universe, and that there's a there's a Confucius quote love he says, he who says he can and he who says he can't are both usually right, right, And the the idea that what you think and what you
believe is the first step to manifestation. You can't create it if you can't see it in your mind, if you can't believe it, you can't bring it out of the quantum field into this three D reality if you don't believe it. You have to have a certain deluded certainty in your magical abilities.
Now, and actually that's your second verse and beautiful scars, But the versus song I feel like that beautiful, right, that's one of my favorite verses of them, of the songs I heard loved that.
Yes, that is absolutely what that that verse is meant to communicate. You know, there there are no limits as send through the universe. I believe in me, like it's religion. But I am the only one who converts conversation with the congregation. The scripture is in the verse I manifest through my mentality. The only real is my reality, you know. So it's like that that's the I love trying to get those ideas into the music, to be able to share the cheat.
Codes, you know.
And it's like, you know, one of the things with my kids, there was a thing I used to say to my kids all the time where you know, they would say, oh.
No, I can't do that. I was like, no, don't think that.
Don't think that, like the pattern of thoughts to emotions that lead to actions that become your life. Right, And it's like the first gate is what you think, Like, don't think that. Only think things that are like aligned with what you want to manifest.
When did when did that become like a concrete in your head? Like I mean it seems like maybe you've been operating I don't know if you were operating that way subconsciously before or this was always sort of a conscious manifestation of your So I think.
I always I knew as a child that.
The energy in a room is a major part of what happens out of that room, like like what the energy is. You can't create an opposition to what the feelings and the energy are in the room. And I knew, you know, very young, that my my imagination was the center of my ability to create. And I knew that if I if I was in a bad mood, I was going to make bad things happen. And you know, sort of a negative aspect of that for me is
I learned how to pretend. Right, So you pretend positive energy and strangely you'll start to actually feel good.
Wow.
Right, But the the you know, the problem is.
That the the the the underlying issues are are still there and you know they will they'll definitely creep up on you.
That makes sense, the residual So.
Yeah, you gotta at some point point you have to come out of the delusive positive energy and you have to make your way through you know, your your interior Valley of the Shadow of Death and come to you know, authentic faith and trust and positivity. Yeah, that's looking forward.
I do want to go back to the start of your music career, Chazy, Jeff and the Fresh Prince.
It was such a beautiful time.
So Jeff comes from a musical family and Jeff's brother had ten thousand records. He had one of the biggest record collections of anybody in Philly. And when Jeff was twelve years old, he had a bout with cancer.
So Jeff wasn't allowed to come out of the house.
Between twelve sixteen, wow, and he was in his basement with ten thousand records for the process of you know, beating cancer and all of that. And we had to go to Jeff's house to see him, right.
Was that like a like that's pretty like that's kind of like hetty for like a sixteen year old to be you know, you know another kid, you know, so it's crazy.
I just you know, at that time, I didn't know much about it and what it was and you know, so I didn't really understand what was going on. And he by the time we met, he was like, you know, coming out of it. But he had spent those four years in the in the base, in his mother's basement. We did all of our original recording in his mother's basement. Wow, so I don't have an image of Jeff in his childhood home. I cannot recall an image where he's not
standing behind his turntables. Jeff was always behind his turntables. He would he would be behind his turntables twelve hours a day, but three and four hour stretches where he wouldn't sit down. Wow, you're no, that's the only image I have of him. I'm like trying to you know, when I was writing my book, I was trying to remember Jeff's in the kitchen. I was like, I don't even have a I don't even have an image of Jeff opening the refrigerator, like.
Always in front of his turntable. What was it like His parents were like cool with it.
Yeah, well it was like, you know, his mother wanted him in the house whatever. Yeah, yeah, she almost lost her baby. She was like, as long as he's in the house, y'all gonna do whatever you want down there.
But then they spend a time between like sixteen and you guys are in the basement.
You never see Jeff out of the base on the turntable.
Well, you guys according by the time he was sixteen, he was so used to being in his basement. From sixteen to twenty he was still in there by choice.
I didn't really, I didn't know did that first because you guys get signed a Jive, which is you know, at the time or maybe still is London based. Yeah, so you guys record the first album.
Yeah in London, in London, Yeah, kind of write it too, maybe even like so, so what happened is, you know, back then you had to have everything written before you went in the studio. You couldn't go in the studio and write in the studio. So we had prepared all of the music and you know that was at a
time there was no pro tools. You couldn't record at home, right, So it was like I think task Cam had just come out with like a four track recorder and that was the first time you could just at least get something on to four track to hear it. So job the company was Zamba. They were based in London, so you know, we had recorded most of the music or written most of the music in Philly and then we flew to London to actually go into the studio.
So wildly in my mind, I would would have thought, you guys did it in New York, you know something, but like no, to go from like we're doing We're Philly and we're doing hip hop, repping Philly hip hop and we're going find we fine over forget New York going to London.
London to record it was it was. It was my first introduction to how important traveling is. It's like it blasted my mind open. Like they didn't have steak knives. I was like, how do you not have Why would you did they? We were we were cutting steak with butter knives. I was like, well, you know, we have steak knives. I was just I was really really surprised. I thought a a th other place like England would
at least have stak now, but yeah, it was. It was like just the you know, just the cars and the steering wheel on the other side and driving on the other side of the street. It's it's amazing how
that can blast you know, a kid's mind open. You know, you don't even consider the idea that people drive on the other side of the street, and you get these patterns in your mind that get locked and having an experience that pops it open, you know, it just really helps to open you to new ideas and new possibilities. I think it was really great for me and Jeff to be listening to radio in London while we were
recording our first album. So it it expanded well mind, Jeff was already music, yeah, but it really expanded my understanding, even the idea that they were loving hip hop in a foreign country.
You know, I didn't.
It never had dawned on me that hip hop was outside of New York, Philadelphia, New Jersey.
We'll be right back with more from Will Smith after the break. You've talked about rock Him, Melly Mel being to your guys.
Yeah for sure.
Was was was slick Rick at all? Like big for you?
Yeah, slick Rick was later. Yeah. So so.
For me it was Grandmaster Kaz was my my like, my whole style and everything is based on Grandmaster Kaz.
So it was he was the He was the first rapper that I.
Heard put comedic punchlines and there was something about that that validated who I was. Wait, I could put a joke in a rap and you know, he people would be cracking up. At Grandmaster Kaz's punchline, and he would do a thing where you know, the DJ would stop the beat on the fourth bar so everybody could hear the punchline and then drop the beat back in. And he was the first person that I heard do that, and that totally became my style.
You and Jeff were worked that out. We would work that out.
Yeah, so there would be there would be no Fresh Prints if there was no Grandmaster Kaz. Wow. So that was and then Slick Rick comes in when so Slick Rick was slicking Dougie. That's all like mid to late eighties. But the summer that we dropped nineteen eighty six I think is arguably right because it's one of.
The best time.
So it was you know, Jazzy, Jeff from Fresh Prince and and uh Eric being Rok Kim Run, dmc ll cool, j BC boys, all of that that that eighty six to eighty eight, and Slick and Slick and Dougie were right on the back end of that, right right, gonna be like eighty seven eighty eight, Yeah, Yeah, when the Yeah Deaf Jam record comes out. As you start to develop, like you know, you told the story about getting the
Fresh Prince. When you you're I mean your firm, you're super very successful despite being broke, blowing the money access, you're a highly successful musician. You know, well, eighty nine we won the Grammy and you know we we were we were already on the on the the road to bankruptcy while we were written winning the grim While you're there the highs and the low Yeah, for sure.
But when you get the Fresh Prince, then is there any part of you was like I was gonna do Like obviously you released some more records as Judge Jeff and The Fresh Prince. How did you manage both at that time?
So you know, at that point once, once I was broke, I was like, I don't ever want to do that again. So I never want to do that again. So that that is when the I went full beast mode. I was like, I am doing this TV show. I'm going to release music every single year. And you know, then as I started to transition to movies, I was trying to do a movie album and the TV show every year, and you know, music kind of took a little bit of a backseat, which is a part of my inspiration.
Now.
I've actually never concentrated on music. The way that I've wanted to Music was always second to the Fresh Prince of bel Air, or it was second, you know, even when I got things to go together like men in Black, so we do we do Men in Black and then the song is also a hit for the soundtrack.
I was tripping though, because that, like, you know, I was looking it up. I was like, that didn't even Men in Black was a huge song. But anyone who was there to remember that song was huge still is huge. I didn't even chart. I can't beat It's like it wasn't even officially released as a single, So it really was like a secondary.
The secondary.
Yeah, you know, music was always the mistress, and she doesn't like that, so I'm trying to.
Devote to her, trying to you know, And even I went back trying to look up press. You might have done around Big Willy Style, not a lot, but you didn't really promote those that much.
Yeah, so you know, with Big Willy Style, that was coming off of Men in Black, So I was trying to use the momentum of that. But you know, Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince have never even gone on tour, right, so we've done dates on other tours. We did dates on Runs House, and we've been on and off of other people's tour.
We never did a headlining tour again, never did a headlining tour.
So this this will be the first time ever that you know, we put together a tour and I get to headline a world tour. Never so all that all that live audio on like he's a DJ on the rapper that's from just like one off.
One off show.
So you know, we would do The Fresh Prince of bel Air would shoot on Friday nights. So what we would do is the the taping would be Friday night. We you know, flyout, we do a show Saturday night somewhere and then Sunday back on a plane to be back or at work on the Fresh Prince on Monday. So we were getting one show here, one show there,
but never have actually done a tour. This will be the first time in my life that I'm going to put together a full tour, full show, full performance, headlining, headlining.
Do you haven't worked out yet?
I have.
I have my.
Ninety minutes. I had never been on stage for ninety minutes before. So I did two shows in San Diego, a couple of months ago.
It was wild.
It was the world is so desperate for nostalgia right now. The world wants that so bad, and it's like people just yearning for, you know, a time when things were a little bit easier. So that and then the latter half of the show transitioned into the new music and it was just it was beautiful.
How people went with me, you know.
And you know, because it's really in one arena, I'm seasoned artist, and then in this new space, I'm like brand new. It's a weird experience. It's a weird yeah space, you existing. So I'm trying to find that new way. So it's the first time I've ever done ninety minutes, was you know, two months ago in San Diego. In San Diego, I've never been on on on music stage for ninety minutes. I've never done more than sixty minutes.
I was the tour now coming out. That's crazy to me, you know, the nostalgia of it. I mean going back and listening to Big William will Any, I mean, that was that was that was a trip for me. There were some real interesting things. Was when I was going back and revisiting it, I mean, I owned both in the day and played them incessantly. But going back and revisiting that now, like nas is on it, like first all I didn't even realize, like going back like uh uh Toning Poke, how did you get that?
So when you go to do your first solo.
Album, yeah, you probably could have at that point your will you can probably could.
I mean you had done old On.
Let's think about this, between Code Red and uh Big Willie Style, it's uh six and Greeks of Separation comes out.
Yeah, so I was doing a movie between each one, the television show and a movie in between.
In between you film, you film and release Bad Boys, Independence Day and Men Black. Yes, so I mean you like no Vacation, no, no, nothing you know, and you and Fresh Prince Rat Fresh Princes. So like all that's happened in the four years between the Last Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince record and and and Big Willy Star Style. But so how do you end up? And I love the track masters, I love Tone and Pope.
How do you end up with them? How'd end up with them? Being the how do we meet Tone and Polk? I think so Big Willi Style. I think they were signed to the label at that time, Columbia. Yeah, they were sligned to signed to Columbia, and we I don't remember how we met the first first time we met, but they were like the top of the top. They were they were producing everybody at that time, and they were you know, Nas and Mary J. Blige and you know, so they they had they had hits. They were they
were the guys of the moment. And you know that that was that was a little bit tough because Jeff at that point had produced everything.
So we had never worked with outside producers.
Do some stuff on the last one, right, like Teddy Riley did a song, but but even that was coming through Jeff. So Jeff, So this was the first time that I went with producers and you know, worked separately on on music. So was that a tough conversation to have? Yeah, yeah, you know it's Jeff is real easy going. Jeff, Jeff is real easy going. And he he had uh he had started in the Fresh Prince of bel Air, so
he was he he was cool at that time. But what it was a little it was a little bit of a of a difficult time because I was trying to like do something new. I was trying to like find a new direction, a new voice, not not unsimilar to now. You know, I think that that shoot, that might that might be the the central human skill to be able to transform and transition, you know, it's like to to be able to make the adjustment. This one's bigger than that, you know, but it's, uh, it is
I'm thinking about it. I hadn't thought about it. It is a it's a really similar kind of seeking for the new artistic expression, well, the trajectory again fresh prints that as a as a sort of the point of view for making the music into big will Willie style Willennium, that is, being like the newly minted movie star. Yes, that's like that.
Big WILLI take it full Big Willie. That's that point of view. And yeah, right now it.
Feels more personal than ever. I mean, although first person probably was personal too. It's just a lot lighter when you're you know, it's.
Different when you're when you're as an actor, it's you know, it's kind of you, but you're playing a character, whereas the music is much more uh personal. And I think what happened in the first part of my career I rejected anything that wasn't happy and joyful and getting jiggy with it. You know, I was living fully in that space and I kind of banished, you know, those other
parts of myself. So this is this is really the the first time in my in my career with with music for sure, that I'm allowing a fuller, fuller spectrum of my thoughts and feelings to be delivered in in the music.
Although Willennium, you Am with the Rain.
Yeah, and you got saw I put it as the last song song, put as the last song. I was like, Okay, this one, this one got a little sad and it's in it. Put the We're gonna put that as the last song. It's incredible though, Man, Jill Scott's amazing. I think that's one of her first like like like features on a record, you know what I mean, Ji Scott, that was one of the That was one of the
first records that I worked with somebody to write. Common wrote that with me really yeah the Rain, So me and Common worked together on that.
So how did that come together?
So you know, he was just in the studio, he was in another studio he was working on.
He was like, Yo, what you working on?
He literally just came in the studio and start throwing lines and weep.
Me and Common wrote The Rain together.
Wow.
Yeah, there's been people who said that you did. We're doing that with Nas on Big Willie Stein.
Yes, yeah, so what was the track?
It was a just cruising, just cu want just cruising with Nas. Yeah.
So I wrote that with Nas and wrote The Rain with with Common. That's wild, man, Like, collaboration is everything. Man, This is like opening up to other ideas and other voices and hearing you know, what people would do differently, right, And it's like how Common's mind works and how NAS's mind works. And for me it was it was it was trying to reach for people that I admired to like pull something out of me. I just, I just
I wasn't ready at that time. Genre changed so much too between I mean, you know, just like your career changed so much between co Red and Big Willly sounds like between co Redd and Big Willly sounce like illmatic. And it was written comes out life after that or ready to die and life after Death. Me guess well, and all that time it's like there was like a big you know, it just changed so much. I always
wanted to rap like that. You know, and I just never gave myself permission, you know, to make things that weren't at the top of joyful energy, you know, to be able to settle back a little bit into different emotions and different energies. And this is the first time. I always want it, hits. I want a big, giant global hit records, and I knew how to make still know how to make records that will play in one hundred and ninety countries in the world, you know. So
I'm trying to release that outcome desire. And now I really want to express myself, right, I want to like explore what's going on in here and share it and find that connective space with other people who could enjoy the experience of my testimony, like what happened I saw with my book. When you open and are vulnerable in that way, it is helpful. It's helpful because you know, we all think we're by ourselves. Did you know you were going to be that open when you started the book?
Like did you?
Because like you, I was like, wow, this is you are being vulnerable, which was such a gift. But no, I certainly didn't know that when I started, you know, But as I as I got into it that like that, the medium lends itself to more openness. It's a little more difficult for me doing that with the music because you got make it rhyme, you know.
You figure it out.
That's another thing where you just you got in a book, you just say it and your your you know, and you have so much space. And in literature you have so much space to make your point.
You made use of it, though, and I'm sure there's more.
I'm sure you could. I know you're probably gonna do another one. I hope you do.
But that's a substantial book, and you know, I just couldn't help but thinking about it when I'm listening to Beautiful Scars and First Love, which will be out by the time.
Yeah, this, like India Martina is gorgeous.
She's an incredible She's incredible. Can you talk about First Love a bit? So the way I'm creating my current music is anything that sparks.
I'm making a song, right.
I used to be directed by what I thought would land, and so now I'm not paying attention to whether it lands or not. I'm only focusing on an accurate expression of whatever came up for me, whatever came up inside of me.
So with the first love.
I saw this video of in Cuba with these kids learning flamenco and it was this really strange mix of kids in Cuba and it was the flamenco guitars and all that, you know, and it's like flamenco is really sexy. And you know, these kids were like twelve or thirteen,
and I just watched. There was a little boy and a little girl and they were how they were looking at each other, and I was like, wow, you see that look and you remember like that first time you like fell in love with somebody, that feeling of absolute joy and possibility and anxiety and all of that stuff
that gets mixed up in first love. And then I was I was noticing how we lose the ability to be that open after we get hurt, and then once we're adults, we don't even allow ourselves to fall into that delicious, mystical place of first love.
I don't think anyone would accept it if you try, your friends, what do you do? What do you think?
But it's really and I was looking at those kids, I was like, Wow, that's.
What we all really want.
We really want to feel that with no fear at all like and and then I saw India perform in uh Marbella and I saw her perform and she had a flamenco piece. I was like, so I pitched the idea to her and she loved it and she went in the studio. So did you have words already or I had the emotion of what I wanted to do, But it was the flamenco hip hop blend that I got excited about. So we went back and forth for a couple of months and the record First Love is what came out of it.
It's really amazing. Man.
After this last break, we were back with the rest of my conversation with Will Smith.
It's funny.
I was sick about four years ago and I threw in your audiobook three years ago and I spent like five days in bed just like with your voice in there and your book just it blew me away. Oh thank you man, And it made you know, just I think the way it is a book that was that personal and that you read it too, and the way you produced it.
It really was like, man, I feel like I know this guy now. You know.
We couldn't that weird, but from what I like, what I could glean from that. What trimmed me out is it seems like there's this kind of duality with you. That's that's that's there's the highly rational will. It's accepted to m I t you know, very mathematical, precision based rationality. And then it does seem though it's the flip side of that, which is like the intuitive artist, No, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go sign a record deal and me and Jazz are gonna go toward the world.
The universe I learned and one of the things I talked about in the book, I learned that the as much as our minds want the universe to be rational and logical, it's not.
The universe is magical.
Right, So that's why we love movies like The Matrix, because deep down.
Inside we know that's how it really is.
That's why we like It's that that the the the the universe. And you know, you can say God, or you can say source, or you can say the quantum field, whatever you think. The energy is of the universe that you know is there that you know you can tap into, right, you know, that's why Star Wars, you know, the force in martial arts, it's cheat everybody talks about a source
energy that you can tap into and you become exponential. Right, so, very young, I connected my thoughts to that energy that is this magical.
Source God, spiritual.
Energy that creates things exponential, that's directed by your desires and your energy and your your mind and your heart, you know. So I've been aware of that. This is the first time in my life, probably the past three years, where I am fully committed to that energy from from a spiritual standpoint, you know, in the past couple of years, I've read every Holy book, you know, I went, I went looking for for God and and found them.
Yeah, it's turning up in your in the in the lyrics for this album, I mean Fresh Prince to Big Willie Willennium to what you put out. Now, this is the most introspective, Yes, for sure. It's it's like, you know, I feel like I've been blessed with cheat codes.
You know, I've been I've been blessed with with secrets, and I'm trying to figure out how to share them without sounding like the crazy dude.
You know. I want you all to get some of this abundance.
Was that the impetus then to start doing music again. Yeah, you know what what happened? It really started for me
on emancipations. I did a movie in the slave drama a couple of years ago, and you know, it was it was really brutal going into the mindset and the the the absolute malice and malevolence of slavery and holding holding my mind in that in that place for three months, and then COVID hit and I ended up having to stay in that emotional feel for nine months because you're not sure when going back to shooting, so we don't want to get out of it.
Yeah, so I was staying in And what does that look like? Though?
Like, well, I never even thought about that. What do you do? I mean, you're Will Smith, you know, You're you're the product of your parents, a Philly, of Quincy Jones, of all like all these magical, wonderful people.
And you're putting yourself into a role that is you know, and obviously this is our lineage. Yeah, sure enough, But in twenty twenty or whatever, you having to put yourself in the mindset of a of a of a of a slave, a person who's being treated as less than human.
What did you what did you do to do that? You know there as an actor, you you know, you consume all of the literature and you know there there are you know, tapes of former slaves and things, you know, enslaved people, and you're you, you consume it all and then there's a point where something clicks. And for me, the point where it clicked on emancipation I had. I said, I wanted to use the real shackles, right. They were like, hey, we can make them lighter, and we can do that.
I was like, no, I want, I want the actual shackles. So they found, you know, an actual one they were going to rebuild, but they put it around my neck and I was chained and it was on my neck and I was standing there with it and then the key wouldn't open it and we're like, oh no, and it was stuck, and my heart starts pounding and I'm standing there and in that moment it just started opening up.
Now I have people that are running around, like desperately trying to get this thing off of my neck, But in those fifteen minutes where they couldn't get it off, it was like the the concept exploded inside of me of what it's like to be at the Mercy of other people's whims and I just understood it was like, Wow, I'm sitting here shook with people running around try to get it off. What would it feel like if people
didn't give a shit? What would it feel like if people would kick me and punch me when I couldn't fight back, you know? And it just popped inside of my mind. You're like, all of a sudden, for whatever reason, I didn't want to look people in their eyes. I was embarrassed, right, and I felt weak and I felt vulnerable, and I was like, this is what it would do,
This is what it does to your spirit. And I'm standing there and my whole crew is there and they're looking at me too, and I'm like, I'm deeply disempowered and scared and embarrassed. I was like yep, and like all of the emotions exploded inside of me of how you're dehumanized by that kind of brutality. So you know that once that piece awakened and you get in touch with those emotions as an actor, you start to be able to call on them, and you call on those
memories and things. But what happened is I ended up having to stay in that field for nine months, and something happened to me that never happened before as an actress. I started to dream as the character would dream. I was having his dreams, right, and you know, some of the some of the images I was seeing were like full nightmare imagery.
And it's it like popped open a well.
And you know, in in the character well opened up inside of me. A another part, a banished part of will opened up also, and and it's just I just I became a brand new human after emancipation.
There was literally a part of you. I mean I think about that too when I was when I was listening to your book. You know, I think a lot about Obama as a for instance, like the how he has to be you know, beyond reproach in order and the you know, it's like, oh you are a base soup like you know, like yes, you know, thinking back to like Fox not wanting to cast you in Independence day. Okay,
oh he's black and I's not gonna self foreign. These are things that you're you know, even as your your will and you're holding your confidence and you're you're holding your spirit up as an example for all of us and how to overcome you're dealing with these things. And so there is I mean, I think probably in all of us, in every Black American, there's just there is probably some wounded part. I can only imagine what being a slight well channeling that.
Would One of one of the things that I realized in the last couple of years is we're We're all wounded. Wounding is existential. The the specific parts of our personal wounding is unique to our experience, but it's not unique to humanity. You know, women feel the same kind of wounding with men, And there's there's a sameness to our existential wounding that makes us miss treat each other right.
And the the the recognition of our plight of all being dropped into this existential meat grinder, this place of absolute chaos and brutality and confusion. And when when, when I can find my sameness with you, we're.
Less likely to fight about it.
But if I need to prove somehow I'm worse off than you because of you, then you know, fighting is the only thing left to do.
Right.
But the unique wound that you had that was exposed to this role, you feel led to creativity.
It's the that it's I started to see code, you know, that's it was fun for me to do to do the matrix, and how you started thinking about the matrix as an entry point to present the music. I was like that it is. We all feel that it's brilliant. The matrix is brilliant, but we really start to look at it and when you start to see the practicality
of what it actually means. And in essence, it's the idea that you have a story about reality and I have a story about reality, and neither one of our stories is actually true, right, right, we have a you know, my story is my father beat up my mother in front of me, and because of that, I felt like I had to sing and dance and make the house happy. And then that's how I became Will Smith. Right, And you know, I have my perception of myself that is nowhere near the actual.
There's a meta, there's a yeah thing that I am right, you know.
So Michael Beckwith has a really beautiful phrase. He calls it the friction of fictions, and he says, that's what people are dealing with. I am fighting for my false story to be true, and you're fighting for your false story to be true. And you see it in relationships and you see it in governments and you you know, you see where I am clinging to a story that I desperately need to be true. And that's the That's what I really like about the matrix. It's like, yo', it's that's not true, you know.
And so and so you're making music now, I know I'm going far.
I'm just here.
I'm just trying.
I'm just trying to thread it together.
So really this was and it's you wanted to you you you had this uh realization in a real concrete way, you wanted you felt the need to share this. That's where this different version of Will Smith the rapper, the musician, and this product.
And its most simple form. I feel like there is.
A new wave.
That's coming, like where we are going some place in terms of consciousness, in terms of humanity, in terms of connection, in terms of understanding, and you know, I really do uh believe that the power of it is going to be in deeply and personally looking at ourselves and like the actual fiber of what's happening between us, like to truly understand like the nature of reality, separate from your thoughts about reality, like biting down on what our thoughts
and beliefs are versus. Okay, let me I'm gonna back off of that just a little bit to see if I can see what's really truly happening in this moment. And it's like with my music, I really am trying to explore myself and trying to explore the world and trying to.
Figure out how we can treat each other better.
Yeah, you know what that is the mission? And you have the words coming to you. How do you how do you set out to do? I mean, I know you spend some time in Spain and there's some great allusions to the moors and stars for instance, and like so what how do you start? But your kids are making incredible music, Like.
How are you?
How do you start to figure out? Like how I'm gonna put this together? You know?
So I I start with, you know, really simple basic ideas, like you know, the first song I.
Released was uh called you Can Make It?
And I got a number one gospel record like that was that was like quite a treat. But it felt like the most basic, kindest thing that you can say to another human being is to recognize that, even though you don't know what they're going through, you know that everybody is going through something. You know, in this room, you look around, you know, every single person is going through something.
That's what connects us.
Somebody just lost a loved one, somebody's going through a breakup, somebody lost a job, somebody just got a diagnosis.
Right like, all of that is happening in this room right now.
You lost the home whatever, you know in Los Angeles, now, the fires, everybody's going through something. So to me it felt like foundational humanity is, hey, brother, I don't know what it is, but you can make it, you know. So I wanted to speak to that, you know, sort of collective difficulty that I think in understanding that difficulty, I think that it potentially creates a higher level of compassion.
And then did it drift into let's kind of make this essentially a gospel song like playing that church.
And that's just what happened.
It was like I was looking for the sound that captured the spirit of you can make it, you know. And you know, Jason came in with the with the Sunday Service and he really really blessed that track.
The Sunday Service choir on that is incredible man, And you did that performance and you had Kirk Franklin unbelievable man that.
Was that was Chandler more. Also, you know, it's I'm really searching. I feel like a brand new artist right now, you know. I know I have nostalgia, you know, and I'm definitely gonna give people the nostalgia when I go go on tour and performing the old music. But I'm really looking for the next phase of my career, the next phase of my artistry. I'm trying to find that that next place, you know, and I'm really excited to try to put put words and imagery and sound to
you know, the fire holes of ideas I'm experiencing. Do you think there'll be multiple projects like Beyond? I mean you're breaking into chapters.
Multiple chapters, seasons, season three seasons, excuse three season. We were talking about the book I got on the chapter seasons. But it seems like you are you still like are you just is this something we're now of the everything's flowing, like, do you think it'll just keep the.
Yeah, it's it's there's nothing like music. There's nothing like music.
What do you listen to day to day when you're not making music? When you were going back to maybe let's say twenty fifteen to twenty twenty before your music maker mode, Like, what do you was?
I listened to back then, afrobeats was started to pop, and I was looking at a lot of global music. You know, are you trying to put like bumba stereo colia?
Yeah?
Yeah, And I was looking at you know, what was happening in Korea. You know, they were really starting to to cultivate a music industry.
They make pop songs as good as anything, unbelievable.
You know, they really took off with television, the Korean Korean TV is wild right now.
But yeah, it was.
It was global music I was looking for, you know, the sounds of the world. I really feel like the the necessity of artists today is to get out ahead of politicians and make connections and make collaborations and create some understanding through through artistic exchange, you know, before the misunderstandings turn into military action.
Yeah, that's the history of music really, Yes, is artists being out ahead of the politicians. We're going to go to Louisiana and Texas and cord Yes, absolutely, people on working fields and people you know, prison label We're gonna go record this stuff. And put it in, you know, and then that's how you get you know, rock and roll in the fifty years. So it's like that is the real explosion of creativity and music in the twentieth
century we think about is from that. So the idea of getting back to that.
Yeah, definitely.
The the you know, global artistic collaboration in today's world, I think is imperative, Like it's a it's an imperative that we uh get to know each other and get to understand each other, and you know, for the first time in human history, the infrastructure is available for that kind of exchange.
It's funny.
I had a during COVID. I had an interesting experience watching the Tiger Woods documentary that was on HBO, Whereas you know, tigers is like incredible, right, She's insane, but you know, watching that, I was like, man, it just seems like he at some point do you see on the early footage with him on the golf course of his dad, Like it feels like at some point like damn, like people, maybe he doesn't have a connection back to that, Like it feels like in some weird way, you know,
and his dad's gone. It's just it's just it feels like this, It feels like a great tragedy when later in life we still can't find some connection back to who we are these formative things, And yeah, I think my experience is I'm like I'm currently in that space of trying to like tap back into that deep well of like essential me, you know, and you know, life gets caked on top of it, you know, and the picking of a personality right is like, you know, we
have this constellation of things that we're gonna let ourselves be, and then there's all these things over there that we're not gonna let ourselves be, and we imprison parts of ourselves, you know. So part of the process of what I'm experiencing is a little bit like a prison break, you know, to kind of open that scary place where I take a really good look at what I really am versus what I want people to think I am. It's it's amazing though, too, how we can even know these things.
And because I mean you even have a cut from the Early Night, like uh, shadow self kind of essentially there what you're saying that you already know. It's like there's these different you pulled that one from Deep Cut Man, Deep hidden on the album people Sleep on That cut Man, People Sleep on that, People Sleep on You saw my blinker Will's cussing on records Now you hurt?
Yeah, that was two shorts favorite Jazzy Jeffyds Fresh Prince record where we went to Oakland and true short.
Was like, that's the one that's You'll never make nothing better than that.
You saw my blinker bitch incredible.
I want to ask you one more thing before you go, just because I got you here. Is it true that you met Notorious b I g like for the first.
Time the night he got killed.
What in the world Let me tell you, Like, I don't even I don't even want to say this out loud because it's like it's like a terrible jinx. I met Biggie, you know, four hours before he got killed, and I talked to Prince eight hours before he died. I talked to Prince and he called and he was pitching. He was saying that me, him and jay Z should start an entertainment company. And he said he had talked to Jay and he wanted to do it. And we talked that night and in the in the morning, he was gone.
I just I don't know what that says about me?
Well, I don't think it.
Well, you have enough experiences in life. Look things happen like No, I'm like, don't call me, don't call me. You've had plenty.
Of don't take it down. But that's got to be a disorienting experience. Just wake up and be like I just met this, you know. Or I just met this insanely talented, brilliant human and now they're or I just had a phone call with Prince who you know. Yeah, No, the Biggie one. The Biggie one made me cry because it was it was like stupid, yeah you know, and it was like just centered on hip hop like for rapping, you know, and that that that one, that one hurt me.
But it scared me too. Yeah no, but yeah, going there.
Okay, man, all right, well.
Man, maybe that was a dark note. That was good.
Good. You're bringing the Brothers, bringing the rain, Okay, bringing the ring man.
Well, thanks, I'm excited to hear the seasons. Yeah, I'm just this is uh. I'm excited to see what else comes of this.
Man. It's been interesting.
It's so fun to follow the journey on Instagram too, when you I mean just seeing what you were doing in Spain and the creation.
Of the album.
It's really cool having this this rollout and beautiful scars. The video came out this morning. It's just and it's for real fashion again. It's like red pill, blue pill, rational?
Is them both?
Yes? Yes, I love that. I love that idea. Nope, take them both. I want both things. It's incredible, you know.
That's the that's the paradox of this whole thing. Man.
It's like both answers are always correct. God will meet you down whatever road you go.
May we all learn to live like you. Man.
It just you know, have it all man, Hello, brother figured it. Appreciate it. I appreciate you.
Thank you man.
Thanks Will Smith for taking the time to drop by Amazon Music Studio one twenty six to walk Broken Record through his career, artistry, and new project based on.
A true story.
You can hear a playlist of all of our favorite Will and will ad Jason tracks in the episode description or by visiting Broken Record podcast dot com, and be sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.
Our theme music's by any Beats. I'm justin Richmond.