Ben Kweller

eight thirty pm. Defund tickets. Visit tribecafilm dot com slash Broken Record all lowercase. That's tribecafilm dot com slash Broken Record. Hope to see there. For close to three decades, Benkqueler's been crafting deeply personal indie rock that's both intimate and expansive, from his early days fronting the band Radish as a teenager in the nineties to his acclaimed solo career that began in the early two thousands, He's consistently delivered songs

that feel raw, honest, and almost conversational. But his latest album, Covered the Mirrors finds Ben in a different place entirely. This isn't just another collection of songs. It's an unflinching examination of grief, healing, and the complicated process of moving forward after unimaginable loss. In today's episode, we'll talk with Ben about the loss of his teenage son Dorian, how Ben and his family embraced grief and managed to not retreat from their lives and work, and what it means

to return to making and releasing music. We'll also talk about Ben's journey through the music industry, from bidding wars with his first band that led to him performing for idols like Tom Petty at a private party in Malibu, to going independent and moving to his ranch in Texas. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. This episode is brought to you by Defender, a vehicle engineered to meet challenges head on so you can explore with confidence.

Adventure Seekers and takers can explore the full Defender lineup at land ROVERUSA dot com. Here's my conversation with Ben Queler from his ranch outside of Austin. It's like amazing to be you have a beautiful spot.

It's like it's like that kind of thing. I don't know where the other sections are, like if they are still around or what, but.

were living downtown Austin at the time. And we came and looked looked at the property and it was so cool, like but it was one of those things where every structure on the property was worse than the next and so like it was just like it needed so much work. Windows were busted in the main house. There were deer living inside like animals. Like it was gnarly. It was like a ghost house, but you could tell it was really cool, you know, like if you just put some

love into it. Bones it had good bones, exactly, And so we went for it. And we originally didn't think we would live here. We just knew we wanted to have a creative space, you know, recording music, making art, a little retreat type vibe. And the more we came out here and the more we realized that, well, we don't really have a nine to five job, you know, we can kind of be anywhere. We were like, let's

just move full time. So in twenty eighteen we moved to the main house, which I'll walk you over there in a little while, and we just loved it. We loved being out in the country. We're about forty five minutes west of Austin, and yeah, I just I can't

imagine not living where I do. And I think also just you know, being a touring artist, you know, I'm always in cities, just like all the time, and so it really is fun to land at the airport and in an hour, I'm back here with the trees and the sky and the birds and now the studio.

But I just remember that I didn't really answer your question. So why was this bar moved here? So it was the hurl Butt ranch and it was just land. And in nineteen eighty one, this local legend, Bobby Stevens, bought this parcel of land, which is thirty acres because the hurl Butt family eventually, like you know, divvied it up and who knows what happened, you know, thousands of acres became just little plots. So Bobby Stevens bought this ranch thirty acres and he was driving in Austin and saw

wrecking ball about to knock over this Victorian house. So he jumped out of his pickup truck nineteen eighty one, was like, yo, what are you guys doing with that wrecking ball? And they said, oh, well the bank, the bank needs it gone by six pm, you know, and and Bobby was like, well, can I have it? Like it's a house, you know. He's like, can I have it? And they were like, well, if you give us, you know, a thousand bucks, sure, and so he was like, all right,

I'll be right back. And so he gave him a thousand bucks, chain saw down the center of the house, put it on two flatbed trailers and moved it out here. So the house was moved here from West sixth Street in Austin.

from the railroad station and moved it here. And then there's a little house on the other end of the property, which we call the Happy House, which is where the band stays when we're rehearsing or if I'm producing an album, the artist has lodging and that was moved here from Austin, which is actually even crazier because it's from the Zilker neighborhood like a block away from where my family lived

in Austin. So when we saw this property, we're just like, what, like that place is from Zilker And there were just so many little signs you know that's just pointed to this being home for us.

dun da dud d dante and that just repeats. And so I noticed, like, okay, well it's in the key of C, which I didn't know at the time, but I'm just seeing the white keys and you play this chord, you skip one, go down, play the next one, skip one, go down, play the next one, and go up one. And so I'm like, okay, I see that pattern. And I said, well, what if you don't play the second chord, you go from the first chord to the third chord and then up to the second chord and then the

fourth chord. And that sounded like let it be because I was a big Beatles fan because my dad, that's all he played was the Beadles and Hendrix and the Hollies, like a lot of British invasion rock and roll. That's what I grew up on. And so I'm like, wow, so let it be is heart and soul, kind of inside out. So then I was like, all right, dude, well skip the second and third chord. Let's go from the first chord to the fourth chord, then the second chord,

then the third chord. And that sounded like a progression I'd never heard before. Meanwhile, there's thousands of songs with that progression, you know. But at eight years old, I was like, wow, this is incredible. And so I wrote my first song, and I would just sing about girls in love because that's what the Beatles sing about. So I'm like, you write love songs. I guess that's what you do. You know, That's all I knew. And so that's how it started. And so you know, I'm very

visually inclined. But yeah, signs are you know, I've always sort of felt them and seen a little deeper, I guess than what's there. I'm really curious person. I like to know how things work. I like to kind of peek behind the curtain and really know about life and what the hell is all this? You know. I mean, it's not a very novel thing to say, but that's just kind of who I am.

a doctor. He did his residency in San fran and I was born there and he was part of the Rural Health Service, which back in the late seventies early eighties, the government would help pay for medical school as long as you served in a rural community after medical school. So he did his residency in San Fran and he would get all these offers like, hey, there's a town in Ohio or Pennsylvania, are you interested in that? And then one came along it's like there's a town in

Texas that's never had a doctor. And my dad was like that sounds cool, like you know, the wild West or something, and so they came to Texas. I was six months old, so he was doc like. He was just like everyone's doctor, pediatrics, geriatrics, calm and cold, like even like minor surgeries.

I'm like, what the fuck is this? Like this is the coolest music I've ever heard, And so I skated around a lap back to the DJ booth and I was like, what is this? And he pulled up the CD with the little baby on and the dollar bill. I was like, dude, this is band Ravana. It's really cool.

I was like yeah, And so, like I went to the record store the next day and got that CD, and I was like, all right, well I need to start a band like this, you know, game over and I figured that all you need to have is three people. You know, bass, drums and guitar is the bare necessities. It's like, you know, every stool, every chair like needs

a minimum of three legs. It's like, well, okay, rock band, it's kind of the same thing, and so I started, you know, in my town, there weren't a lot of musicians, but eventually I met a drummer and bass player who were great, and we had different band names, but eventually it became radish and so I got to kind of back up a little bit. So, you know, small town kid in Texas writing songs, how do you even you know, get out there?

there was this pool hall called Chauncey's Place. And dude, I might have been like twelve or thirteen at this time, and I remember calling Chauncey. I would just cold call people. I mean, like I was little entrepreneur, dude, like at twelve and Chauncey himself picked up the phone. I was like, hey, my name's Ben. I got this band called Radish and we really would love to come play a gig. He's like, well, y'all any good. I'm like, yes, sir, we're really good.

And I was like, in fact, I can play you a song right now over the phone. Oh way, and he kind of chuckled because he was like in his fifties or something. He's like yeah, He's like, okay, go ahead, you know what I mean, because he was just getting a kick out of this whole thing. And so, you know, old school like holding the phone between my shoulder and my ear, grabbed my guitar and I play him a song and he's like that is pretty good. All right. Next Thursday, you got your own gig, you know. And

so that was our first concert. That was in nineteen ninety four. I still have the flyer wow for it. And so then eventually that led to gigs in Dallas and we started playing in the Dallas scene a lot. And in the nineties there's a neighborhood in Dallas called Deep Elam, which is iconic neighborhood for music, and in the nineties it was really a great place, a great scene,

and I pretty much spent every weekend. As soon as I got my driver's license, I would just go there for the weekend, just like watch shows or play shows. Tripping Daisy the Toadies, like a lot of great bands were out of that scene.

the story. So rewind back to the sixties. My dad's a drummer in high school and it's the high school talent show and my dad's band plays some cover songs or whatever, and then this kid gets up the next act and does an accordion a medleyon accordion of Beatles songs, and it's like incredible, and everyone's like, oh my god, that was Who is this guy? And so they went and introduced themselves. His name was Nils Nils Lofgren. So it turns out, you know, Nils Lofkin is one of

the best guitar players of all time. He plays in the East Street Band with Springsteen. He has played with Neil Young, Crazy Horse like just such a legend. Also has an incredible catalog of solo records which I also grew up on with my dad playing those. So Grinn is like the coolest like garage rock band ever that no one knows so good. I'm so happy you mentioned that. Just made my heart. Loved the shine. So my dad and Nils became friends. My dad had the basement, so

they started a new band called the Radical Five. They were also a trio, just three of them, but they thought that was cool, the Radical Five, but there's only three Like that was psychedelic, bro, you know what I mean. And so they would play my dad's basement. My dad would tell you, oh, well, I was never good enough as a musician to really do music, so he and he always had this thing for being a doctor and

went on to do that. But Nills and my dad stayed in touch through the years, and so like, whenever Nils would come through town, we would always go and see him in Dallas, and so like my first concert was Bruce Springsteen in the East Street Band, born in the USA Tour nineteen eighty five Reunion Arena, Dallas, Texas, Like holy shit, wow, you know. And so Nils was like my contact, like he you know what I mean, Like he was like, Okay, this is someone who's doing

the thing that like I want to do. And so ever since that first song I wrote when I was eight, I would make little cassettes and send them to Nils, you know, and just be like Nils like, check out you know these songs I'm writing. And he was always so sweet, you know. I'd call him and be like what do you think. He's like, oh, it's great, Ben, Just like keep doing it, keep writing, you know what I mean. Yeah, So fast forward back to the nineties.

Deep LM. Radish is getting more serious. We're playing gigs, doing the whole thing. We did make like a cassette EP. And then CD became a thing that you could do like yourself, you know, like it became possible to duplicate like you know, five hundred or one thousand CDs like that was the thing. It was kind of expensive, but it was attainable. So we saved up money and we pressed our first CD, and so of course I sent it to Nils and I guess it was on his

coffee table. He was making an album at the time, and the producer was walking by, you know, through the living room and was like, oh, what's the CD? And he picks it up and the photo of the CD was like three young kids behind bars, Like we thought that would be a cool album cover. Yeah, we're tough, you know, rawdug. So he's like, who are these kids? And Nil said, oh, well, that's my friend's son's band, you know. And this producer put it on and really

liked it. And so then we get a phone call at my house.

for me. But being a small town kid. I was like, whoa, this is crazy. He's like, Hi, I'm Roger Greenawalt and I'm producing Nils Lofgren right now, and I just heard your CD and there's this song that I really love. I want to come to Texas. I want to rehearse your band. We're going to record a three song demo and I'm gonna shop it around to major label record companies.

And I'm probably fourteen right now, and so I'm like, Okay, I'm thinking to myself, I have no idea what the fuck you just said, but sign me up, because like this sounds like the best thing. This is exactly I want to leave school, Like I want to play music. This is it, you know. So Roger came to Texas like during spring break or something, and we rehearsed every day, and he would tell the three of us, He's like,

I'm taking you guys to art school right now. So it's like the first time we ever worked with anyone with you know, any kind of producer. And so he would do things like one day, he'd walk in one day and be like, Okay, today, John the drummer, he'd be like, all right, we're gonna remove the rack Tom on the floor. Tom, you don't get any symbols. All you get is snare kick and high hat and so like the whole day, that's all you get to work with. He would do things like limiting us, you know, and

like taking away and just teaching us. And then as far as songwriting, you know, he taught me what the relative minor is, which is a whole concept. You know, if you're in the key of C major, the relative minor is a minor, which is that second chord and heart and soul. So like I already knew what I was here. I could hear it all, but I didn't know how to put it to words and so like

things like that. So anyway, we recorded this three three song demo and he starts sending it around and before you know it, like the phone starts ringing off the hook at my parents' house and it's like all these major label record companies and so then you know, they loved the demo. They're like, well, but we hear he's really young, you know, like we got to see if

he can really perform. And so then we had to go do the showcase, which is like this is like some classic nineties shit that I'm talking about right now because this is like so many people did this formula, you know, but it actually worked for my band, which is kind of nuts to think about. So we went to New York and we did three shows. It was insane.

Friday night was at CBGB's and so like my first gig in New York, you know, outside of Texas was at CBGB's, and Saturday night was at Coney Island High, which I don't think is there anymore, and then Sunday was at Don Hills, which I'm not sure if that's there anymore, but they say that On Friday night it was like all the A and rs from the labels, and then they would they left CBS and we're like yo. They would call their boss, like the head of A

and R say, Yo, this band Radish. You got to come tomorrow night and see them at Coney Island High. And so Saturday night it was the A and R's plus the head of an R's. After the Saturday show, the head of an RS called the presidents and we're like, yo, you got to come see this band Radish. On Sunday they're playing at Don Hills. This is what I was told you know like this is all the legend of it all sounds right, and so on Sunday night, I remember our lawyer, Jonathan Aralick. He after the show at

don Hills. He was like, I've never seen this before, like and this is like this attorney was at a huge law firm like that represented Madonna and Springsteen, like big big stuff, and he's like, you had every president of every major record label was in that room. Like it was kind of nuts. And so we ended up signing with Mercury Records, and the album it like didn't really do much. It was like, you know, classic big

budget major label thing. I remember, like really funny because I I remember I was fifteen, and I remember the publicist from Mercury would come to me all the time be like, Ben, you have to stop dyeing your hair different colors because like we're spending so much money on press shots, like no one's gonna know what you look like. And I was like whatever, you know, like stuff like that, like just and we went to the UK and actually had like a hit song in the UK called Little

Pink Stars. The like did really well, and we did like Redding Festival. We'd sort of faith no more over there in Europe, and then it was time for our second album. But at this point Mercury was bought by PolyGram and it was like all these corporate mergers, and then it eventually became Island def Jam music group who didn't really give a shit about Radish.

like back to eight years old. Like by the time I was fifteen, you know, it's the whole ten thousand hours and you're an expert thing, right, Yeah, Well, like I was already like just so deep in my path, so like when it was time to go perform in New York, and also I was just so I had so much confidence, you know, and determination, and my parents were just like, well, this is what he's doing. And they were so supportive.

of a cool thing. So I would go at fifteen to the local AA meetings and sit around with like these old people who are smoking cigs and you know, drinking coffee, and I'd just chill with them and listen to stories. And that must have been helpful, you know. I never got lost in drugs and alcohol. I always just really stayed clear about the music.

It was just a party, right, But it kind of blew my mind. That was a moment at fifteen years old, coming from Greenville, Texas, where my only understanding of pop culture was MTV, the radio and like Rolling Stone magazine. Right, so we get it. We walk into Jimmy's house and it's me and our drummer and my dad and the drummer's dad, like you know, and so we're hanging with Jimmy. It's like early afternoon. There's a few people there. Dre's there,

and so we're like, well, that's fucking cool. And so we're like hanging with doctor Trey. I think my dad smoked a joint with doctor Dre in the in the limo actually, because he had his Limo just parked out front. But then like later as people started showing up, it was like Axel Rose, Robbie Robertson from the band who my dad was most stoked about. He was like, dude,

you know who that is. That's Robbie Robertson from And I'm like, I didn't know who the band was yet, you know what I mean, Like all I knew was like, that's Doctor tre that's Axel Rose. Holy fucking shit. You know, Joe's strummer from the Clash was there. What the nineteen ninety seven swimsuit calendar Sports Illustrated girls were there, And of course Jimmy knew that I was a huge petty fan, and he was like, hey, Tom's gonna come later too, you know, he said he's coming, and so I was like,

oh shit, this is incredible. But it just like blew my mind because like from my existence in Greenville, texts is like Doctor Dre and Axel Rose are in such different lanes. They don't even know each other. In my mind, I'm like, that's just different worlds, but all being in

the same room. That's when I realized, I'm like, oh wow, okay, so actually they are the same like there, this is like showbiz, like they're entertainers, they're artists, and like of course they know each other because like who else can relate with this life, you know.

I'm not doing anything. Sure enough, a rolls Royce pulls up, Rick Rubin gets out of the driver's seat and Tom gets out of the passenger seat and they walk and there, walking towards me, right to the front door, and I remember just sitting there and like them both being like hey, and just walked by me and entered the house. And so I'm just like looking around and I'm like, Okay, I guess I'll go back inside the party now, like, you know, like what was I doing?

never made a dime off American girl. It's like damn, Like that's raw, you know, and we just start talking. So you know, it was just like sweet of him, like you know, just like going straight to some business like bullet points for like this young kid, you know, like he was like trying to teach me some shit. And then later the party's sort of dying down. And this is another thing like at that time in my life, like I was just so hungry, you know, and I

would take my guitar with me everywhere. I would play for anyone at the drop of a hat. I want to get back into that mindset, by the way, Like I've been thinking about that a lot, Like there's something so beautiful about like when you're a teenager and like you're just naive and all you care about is the one thing you love, you know, which in my case was music. So of course, like why wouldn't I just go everywhere with a guitar and like, why wouldn't I

just play for anyone, anywhere, at anytime. You know, I love that there's something so beautiful that kind of goes away, or it did for me, you know.

and then a chair on the other end. And so it's like me, Tom Petty's to my right on the couch with other people kind of standing around Joe Strummers where you're sitting like on the other side of the coffee table, and just other people kind of around right, and they're like, all right, play us a song, kid. I'm like, all right, pop open my guitar case, pull out my acoustic I start playing a song. I finish it, and they're all like whoo you know, clapping and like

screaming like that's awesome, blah blah. And so I hand my guitar to Tom and I said, Tom, play us a song. It's like all right. And he said the coolest thing to my fifteen year old small town brain. He said, this is a Bech song. And I was like, oh my god, Tom Petty listens to Beck like I'm thinking, you know what I mean, like this is so fucking cool, and so again like I just shattering, you know, genres and like realities of marketing and all the shit that

were fed right and the lanes and the categorical nonsense. Yes, like yeah, like, oh, he's so cool. Tom's cool. He freaking knows about Beck like that was you know. And so not only does he play a Beck song, he plays a Beck song I had never heard before, asshole Wow, which was on One Foot in the Grave and which I didn't which of course I went and found like the next day, you know, at Amoba Records or whatever. But he plays this song that I never heard it,

which is such a really unique chord progression. Everyone out there should listen to this song. Then Tom says Joe and hands my guitar to Joe's drummer, and so he's like, ah, fuck off everyone, and they're all like, no, Joe, play play London Calling. Play London Calling. And I'm like, what's London Calling because I didn't know the class yet. Wow, you know, And so they play London Call. It's like, oh fucking twas fuck.

one that probably would have been the right move. But you know there everything is right like meaning like yeah, like no regrets, like I'm so thankful that like history played out the way it did, and then I was able to have my solo career, Like I'm just happy with the way things are, and even if I was unhappy, that's still how it is, which we can get to in a little bit of like how things go down in life.

is what it is. And also when you write for a band sometimes there's like a feeling like, well, it's like everybody in the band has to kind of vibe with the song you write because you're representing the band through these songs, right, And so a big moment that happened in that period was I met my wife Liz. So Radish needed a bass player and a producer. We were working with Bryce Gogin, amazing producer. Did like all the pavement stuff, a bunch of Lemonheads records.

place and she's like, oh perfect. Meanwhile, you know my place is my bedroom at my mom and dad's house, because you know, I'm seventeen at this point, Liz was twenty two, and I don't think I mentioned that I was seventeen. Looking back, She's like, I totally assumed you were at least eighteen, because you're like on a business trip in Boston, like with your band, like it was you know what I mean, Like didn't realize you were like a high school dropout, and so they eventually got

to textas and the rest is history. Really, I mean, I think maybe a month later, I told my parents, Hey, I'm you know, most of my friends are going to college. I'm not going to go to college. I want to get closer to New York, keep pursuing music. So I'm going to move to Connecticut and live with Liz. Because she left Boston had to go back to Connecticut where she grew up, and so I moved to Connecticut and lived there with her in her childhood home, and that's

where I started writing this new body of work. So I would go into New York City because Radish still had this contract with Mercury, but really now it was Island def Jam Music Group, and I would talk to them. You know, like, hey, you know, we just made this great album with Bryce Gagan at Muscle Shoals, Alabama. And it was funny because like I'm trying to tell them,

like how good this album is. Meanwhile, it's like it was like a double album, eighteen songs like really deck and like just me spreading my wings, you know, and they're just like, it's never going to come out. Basically it never did, and in fact, actually we're going to release it. We're working. That's a project we're working on, like the unreleased Ratish album, which and what's really cool about that record is that there's like four songs on

it that I ended up re recording for Shawsha. And at that time, pro Tools came out with this product like a do it yourself It was called like the Inbox and it was like a do it yourself record at home situation because I had like a Taskam cassette recorder, but this inbox thing was new, and so I started recording songs in my apartment in Brooklyn. We left Connecticut moved to New York. So I made a CD called Freak Out. It's Ben Queller and we pressed up a

thousand because I looked around the room. I'm like, I don't have a band, it's just me, so that I'll be Ben Queller. I'm solo. So I started playing gigs, just like you know how I started as a kid, like just calling around, and I started getting gigs in the Lower East Side. And then there's another band starting called the Strokes, and we become friends and playing gigs, and the Moldy Peaches are starting. So now it's like early two thousands right in New York, which was a vibe.

And one day I get a phone call from Evan Dando of the Lemonheads, which was a complete hero of mine, like up there with Kurt Cobain and the whole thing. So cool. So I get this message, Ben, this is Evan Dando calling. I can't stop playing this freak out record. Give me a call back bye. And I was like, oh my god, holy shit. So I call Evan back. I'm like hey, it's Ben Cohler. He's like, hey, dude, you want to go on tour? And I was like,

yes I do. He's like, great, pick me up at the airport tomorrow at twelve and we'll head up to Boston for a show. And I'm like okay, I'd like, I don't know, like it's like he also just needed someone to pick him up at the airport. And so I throw my guitar in the trunk of my Volvo and I drive to the airport pick up Evan. And for like four or five months, all I did was open for him. And so like all of my first fans,

as Ben Koehler, were Lemonheads fans. Yeah, and also like this is the other thing, is like Evan calling me was such a moment because up until that point, it was just like business people that were kissing my ass and like, you know, we're gonna make you a stock kid, like you know, that was just so fickle and flighty

and you know, not real at the time. But Evan calling me was like the first person that I an artist that I actually respected and looked up to and wanted to be appeer with, you know, And so that was like probably the most meaningful bullet point, you know, in this timeline. And so then from there it was like he introduced me to Juliana Hatfield, I'd start opening for her, and you know, then Jeff Tweety got a copy of Freak Out, and so it just like started

becoming a thing. So meanwhile, I would take these flyers to the Island f GM Music Group office of like, hey guys, I'm opening for Wilco and or the Lemonheads. They would be like how are you doing? Like how are you getting these gigs? You're not ready, You're not ready to you should be rioting and demoing.

departed from Mercury. Ben Kuehler signed on to ATO Records and those early days was that's two thousand and one early days at Oh yeah, it was the first worldwide they had licensed to the David Gray album, which did amazing in the US. And uh so then we went in and recorded Shasha.

we recorded. I mean at that point it was Josh who was in Radish, you know, who introduced me to my wife, and then John David, the Radish drummer, was the drummer, so it was kind of Radish was the band.

fifty thing kind of in my world. And also it being a debut album, and knowing knowing who the hell Bend Coelor was, Like, I really intentionally made the track listings just sort of unique and eclectic, you know, a rock song into a folk song into a seventies piano ballad and the psychedelic like trippy thing. You know, I love so many types of music, and I didn't want to just be one thing. I wanted to just kind of show people a little bit of everything, like all

my flavors. Here's all my flavors, and then stay along for the ride, and I'll make a bunch of albums hopefully. That's kind of what in my mind that was like the game plan.

that guy. Like we you know, it was relatable to me and probably like millions of other people who listened. But you know, that was just in my little world. But then also artists like you know, Neil Young or Tom Petty like you know, and particularly Neil I would say, you know, going back and forth from piano to guitar. But then Nil's Lofgren, I mean, and if you listen to his first solo album, which is just called Nils Lofgrens Great, underrated, amazing album, you know he kind of

switches between guitar and piano. So naturally that's kind of I just as a kid, was like, that's kind of what you do in rock and roll. You play a little piano here, you play little guitar, then you sing on both those songs. You know, Yeah, that's what ties it in as the voice.

thinking my mind. I'm like, well, dude, you're Dave Matthew's like you can go anywhere to shoot any kind of video. But I'm like kind of like this guy that's never put out a solo record, Like, you know, I don't know if that's on the budget.

so you know, we want to be involved. And so I think and and Shasha hit that target whatever it was, and so then for On My Way, r c A definitely got involved. And I do remember there were some commercials at that time that I don't remember what they were. God, I'd love to find them be fun to watch.

way to record. My guitar player at the time was Mike Stroud, who one of the best guitar players I've ever known, and we toured together. He eventually went on to form Ratatat, which is such a cool group. Yeah, yeah, that's Mike Stroud. So if you go back and listen to on My Way album the guitar solo, so Mike's and the right speaker, I'm in the left speaker, so the guitar solos on the Rules and Disaster, like those songs are basically Rattat guitar player. You know, half of

rat Attat is that record. So it's pretty cool.

hits on it kind of a thing, you know. But my third album, I really wanted to do something really expansive and just very layered, and I heard a bunch of instrumentation and I met with Gil Norton, great producer in London, and we were talking about the album. We're talking about tracking it and okay, like who's going to play the instruments? And I'm like, well, I got my bass player, Josh and you know John David, you know, played on the first two albums, and we can do

Mike Stroud, you know, and guitar or something. And then Gil was like, who's playing on these demos because we were listening to some of the demos I made. I said, oh, well, I played all the instruments on the demos. It's like, oh may. He's like, well, have you ever thought about recording the album just you? I was like, well, no, not really, but it sounds kind of interesting. He's like, oh, man,

I think that would be really fun. He's like, I've only ever been in the studio with bands, so it'd be really kind of fun to just work with one artist and just like this does it all? Like you know, we could just like layer everything up, and so that's what we ended up doing. So he came to New York and we recorded this little studio called the Magic Shop, and it was like a musical playground. They had two pianos. They had two grand pianos, a black one and a

white one. One was in tune. One was out and we had him like facing each other like Yin and yang. It looked pretty cool, and so we purposely kept one out of tune. Then you got the organ, and then there's a glock and spiel, and then at the other end is the drum set and then here's a wall of amps. We set it up all in a circle. Because there's only going to be one source being played at any given moments, you don't have to worry about bleed or anything like that. So it was just like,

what do you want to record? Whatever you're inspired to record, you just press record and pick up that instrument. So it was really cool. So like every track, it's very piano heavy. Every song pretty much it's like we would do a take of the intune piano, take of the

autitune piano, then we'd add like glock and spiel. It definitely has like this sort of like there's like a Springsteen feeler, like more of like a Jeff Lynn style, just layered, you know, one hundred acoustic guitars, but it all kind of comes together into one sound in a really unique way. Also, at that time, Liz was pregnant with our first child and so we're living in New York and that was an interesting dynamic because we were the first of our peer group to actually have a baby.

That was kind of like an interesting you know, because like up until that time, you know, it was like touring and rock and roll and going staying out late. You know, you don't have to answer to anyone, you know, and so like now it's like, oh, we're pregnant, we're having a baby, which we're so excited about, and now I'm in the studio by myself. So it was like kind of like one of the most liberating recording experiences but also one of the most lonely. But it also,

I feel like, has some of my best songs. It's got this song called thirteen, which is sort of one of my best love songs, I feel.

all Beatles, British Invasion and then Nirvana. But then there's the third pillar of my musical lineage, which is the music that would be playing around me, like when I'd go to Walmart or like sitting at Applebee's having lunch, and that would have been the class of eighty nine country music, Garth Brooks, Alan Jackson, Travis Tritt, all that stuff. So like, there's like definitely a lot of country. So I would write country songs, even going all the way

back to Radish. I would just sometimes you can't help what you're right, you know, it just pops out and I'm like, oh, that's a cool country song. So I'd put each one of those in this country album bucket. So after the self titled album, I'm like, Okay, this will be my fourth album. I have like ten songs here that are really good country songs. So that's going to be the next one. And so I called it

Changing Horses. I decided, oh, well, I made the first three album New York, maybe I should go back to Texas for this one. And at that time, the band Spoon, their drummer Jimmy, you know, he had just built a great studio in Austin called Public Hi Fi, and Jim was like, dude, come down here to Austin, make the record of my new studio. You'll love it. And so we rented a house in Austin for a few weeks and we recorded Changing Horses, which is one of my

personal favorites that I've made. It's so unique, and you know, I call it a country album. It very much is. It's got pedal steel and doughbro all over it, played by this amazing musician, Ben Kidderman. But it's my flavor of country. You know. It's a Ben Coehler album, like for sure. So we made that we go back to New York. It turns out that the Changing Horses was the last album for Ato Records. In the contract, we're back in Brooklyn and Liz is like, man, life was

really nice in Austin. And Dorian, our son was born before this. So actually when we came down to record Changing Horses, Dorian was with us. He was like one, you know, So when we're back in Brooklyn, she was like, life was really easy in Austin. You know, having a baby there was super easy and cool. And so we decided to move to Austin in two thousand and eight

or nine. So we get to Austin. I always, in the back of my mind knew that I wanted to have a record company because I've just always been a record nerd and I've just been obsessed with recording other people and loving bands and records and the whole thing. And so instead of renewing with ATO, I told him, I'm like, hey, I love you guys so much, but down in Austin just had a baby. I'm like, just changing up everything. I'm going to start my own record label.

So the Noise Company was born, and that was in twenty ten, and we put out an album for me called Go Fly a Kite, which did it for an independent release. For our first release, did really well, ended up getting nominated for a Grammy for Best Album Art. I will say a non music Grammy, but hey, it's as my publicist said, dude, we can still say Grammy

nominated artist. But really proud of that release because artwork is always actually really important to me, the aesthetics and I just love the tactile, you know, experience of an album and a record and so yeah, so we did that. We discovered this great band wild Child signed them. So that's it. So now that this is our like real community at this point, you know, the locals.

Like he like, you know, we'd be having dinner and he'd be like, Mom, this is amazing chicken, and she'd be like that's beef, and like, you know, and that was like when he was like, you know, a teenager, you know, like he just never learned the difference between Like he didn't care if if you were like conservative liberal, like what, like, none of that shit mattered to him.

I mean it's amazing. Like the funeral, so many people showed up, Hundreds of people showed up, Like we met so many kids that would just come up to us and say, you know, Dorian reached out to me and like brought introduced me to these people, like he would put people together and just like people have come up to me since, like you know, we're friends because of Dorian, like we never would have known each other or and in all different scenes from like the skaters to the

band nerds like cool uncool again, like none of the just people. You know, that's all it was.

we'd talk and be like, dude, that's cool. Like then he started learning fl fl Studio, which is like the competitor, you know, it's one of these like recording softwares, but it's like a real hip hop like a lot of the hip hop producers use FL And he loved hip hop, and so he started making beats. I mean, he would like the incredible beats would be coming out of his bedroom. I'd be like, dude, like this stuff is so good.

And then the last piece for him as an artist was like his voice, Like he's started finding his voice and it was such a like soultry sort of his voice tone is a lot of people are like, oh god, he sounds just like you, but really, if you listen, it's actually a deeper register than me. It's a lower voice, and it's like very raspy and just sultry is like the word I always think when I think of his singing. And he was like, Dad, like I want to put

out some of these songs. And so we started like he would come over here to the barn and I would sort of help him mix stuff. And he decided he wanted to release his music under his middle name, zev Zev, which means wolf, and so we started dropping songs like as Zev you know, on Spotify, and it was just so cool, you know, and he was sixteen and it was really interesting, Like there was this period of time where he just would we would have these conversations, uh,

you know, at dinner. We'd always have dinner together as a family, Me, Liz, Judah and Dorian. And for a minute there, like there's this like two week period where he was constantly like god, guys like mom, Dad, Like I just feel so weird, like I can't fit it all in, Like I need, like Dad, we need to be putting out a song like every Friday, Like let's

I want to put out his song constantly. And then of course I'm like trying to explain well, like you know, Spotify really prefers if it's like a four week ramp up period and then then you got to pitch it to editorial like all the bullshit that is driven into our brains, you know, as professionals, and you know, he but he's just like, no, dog, like I want to I need to be dropping a song a day, yeah, you know in his mind. And he but just this interesting vibe where he was just like but yes, a dad,

like I need to put out music. He's like I need to go hang with my friends. But like then I feel bad, like I want to hang out with you guys, you know, like, and I just can't fit it. Like there was this weird thing that was happening, and then one day Liz comes home, and she's like, God, everyone who drives a black pickup truck is an asshole. We're kind of like, really, okay, ha ha, like what like she like, so she kept seeing these black trucks that were like, I don't know, like running off the

road or like. She kept having these weird things, these mother instinct vibe things.

It's a school night, like you really need to start thinking about your future, like you really need to start getting your act together and like get serious about school, you know, and just kind of giving him that talk, and he was so sweet. He was like, yeah, I know you're right, but I'm still gonna go to Dylan's and skate. You know, we kind of like chuckled, and we're like okay, you know, and so then he's like, all right, love you guys. So we have dinner. He leaves.

Then Judah, me and Liz were watching some lame show on Netflix. I don't remember what it is because we'd never watched it since this night, and he always was home by nine, and so it's like nine thirty, right, and Liz said, hey, call Dorian, make sure he's heading home, you know, by nine thirty. I didn't really want after the whole conversation we had at the dinner table, I didn't want to be like, dude, good look, you know.

So I looked on Find my app or whatever to see his iPhone see where it was, and I saw the blue dot was heading home on McGregor Lane in Dripping Springs, and so I'm like, I told Liz, I'm like, oh, he's on his way home. I see him. He's good and she's like all right, cool. As we keep watching the show, and like twenty minutes later, he's not home, and he would have been like ten or fifteen minutes

away from home. So that was a little weird. So I pull up Find My and the dots in the same spot that it was when I looked twenty minutes ago, and so I stood up and I'm like, hey, something's not right. I'm gonna go check on Dorian, like maybe flat tire or something or you know what I mean. I'm just like anything. And there's like not really good cell phone service over there. That's you know, we're in

the boonies. So like I know that road, and and so I hop in the car and I just like race down because you know, it's like every parent's worst nightmare is that thought. You always think.

think of is like there were no animals. There was one car that kind of drove towards me, that passed me on the road at one point headlights and then I'm just like hammering down and I make this turn and I'm going on straightaway and I see all the lights, blue, red, flashing, spinning, and I'm like, oh, fuck, okay, what something's up. I race up fire trucks, cop cars. There's a little red car on the side of the road with a young lady standing there, shell shocked, just kind of standing by

her car. I pull right up to there's cones. I jump out of the car. I start running towards the police and everybody. I'm like, where is he? Where is he? He's my son? Where is he? I look to my left, I see the car. The door has been cut off. He's not in the car. So I'm like, oh, and so then a big officer, whoa, whoa, whoa, sir, sir, sir, you're not allowed to be here. This is a you know, active investigation, the whole thing. I'm like, where is he? He's my son, I'm his father, Like what you know?

Where is he? And he was like, sir, you don't want to go over there, And I'm like, what do you mean, Like, hey, I do want to go over there, Like I'm his dad, you know, like you don't know me, Like, I appreciate you trying to do your job, but like if my like is he dead, you know? And he said, you don't want to go over there. That's how he answered me. And so I knew. So I call Liz. You know, I'm just like, honey, you gotta get down here. And it's really bad. And she said, what it is

the worst scream I've ever heard through the phone. Her and Juda get in the car the other Luckily we had two cars, and her and Juda race down and yeah, and Dorian was dead. Car crash, the red car that was there. This young lady, she said she was driving and Dorian was in front of her, and she saw a big black truck driving toward them, and the black truck went into Dorian into their lane. Dorian tried to correct to the right. A month prior, we had that

huge freeze. This is twenty twenty three, there was some crazy blizzard freeze in Texas that kind of made the news, you know. So there were all these broken branches. The weight of the ice would break branches and so the side of the road was littered with these branches. Okay, broken branches Dorian swerved to the right, and a branch happened to be exactly at his head height, pierced through the windshield and hit him in the head and that

was it. Instant, didn't feel a thing, didn't even probably know what the hell happened. And so the girl in the red car basically saw him swerve, but also thought that maybe he just turned into a dry and then when she went by him, she saw no, there's like a car in the woods, and so she freaked out, called nine one one, Thank god she was there. She

you know, called nine one one. They said the black truck might not even know what happened, like it could have been just like kind of didn't see what was going, like, oh, kind of swerved and then you know, you don't think that like just a little action is going to like kill someone. So we don't know who was driving the black truck. And like, also it's probably good we don't know, like I don't, you know, like that's just it is what it is, and hopefully they don't have any clue.

That'd be a lot better to live with just not knowing. So yeah, so that was when my life really changed. Driving home, the three of us instead of the four of us, you know, wof And finally one of the guys let me go see him. It's like, I have to see him. And they apparently when they got to the scene, they tried to resuscitate him. He was so gone instantly, but they had him in the middle of the road covered in a blanket, and I lifted the blanket, I saw him and kissed him, and then the judge came,

the local Hayes County judge to pronounce him dead. It's like all the craziest stuff, you know that I find myself saying, like this stuff, it's unbelievable. I mean, everyone's devastated at this scene. You know, I just lost my sixteen year old son. And the judge said, if you need anything, twenty four to seven, here's my cell phone. And then of course they're like, what are we doing with the body? And I'm like, well, god, like, I don't even know what we're doing with my parents when

they die, like, let alone my son. So I need to think this through. Now this is really weird. Rewind four years. We're here, we just bought the property, and we're hanging with my mom and dad and we're talking about end of life, you know, we're talking about. Okay, Mom, Dad, like what do you guys, Like, where do you want to be buried? Like, you know, in the spiritual side

of me. And I think the way I am is because I'm an artist and I've lived in chaos my whole life since i was a kid thrown into music. I really crave order and a schedule and a routine and consistency. I really crave it, you know, So conversations like this is kind of I think part of me trying to like know what the hell's happening. So having this conversation with my mom and dad, like, well, we got these two plots up in Maryland, you know. I'm like, well that sounds lame, like I don't know, And I

was like why. I know, Like I've heard of like family cemeteries out in Texas, you know, like on ranches and stuff, and so I started looking into it four years ago and I'm like reading the criteria and I'm like, okay, like we check all the points, like you have to when when you create a cemetery on your property, you have to basically section it off and survey it. It

becomes a detached from your property and becomes Parkland, Texas state. Well, it's private parkland, but it's part of the state of Texas at that point because like who knows what happens to your property, but the cemetery is forever told my parents and Liz, I'm like, dude, we could actually do like this family cemetery. And they're like really, like that's a little morbid. I'm like yeah, but like it could be a thing, like then we'll all know like where

we're buried. And and the boys loved this, by the way, like Judah and Dorian were all about having a cemetery because they were like, oh in like ghost stories and like you know, like just like cool like boyshit, you know, kids stuff. And so we actually hiked around, the three of us to like try to find our spot. And so we seriously found a great spot for our family cemetery. Okay, that was years ago. Then everyone's like, dude, kind of give up them, and I'm like, you're right, it's a

little weird. So I moved on from that. So we're driving home, We're like, what the fuck do we do? And Liz said, well, we should call the rabbi. And that's when you realize like, oh yeah, like priests and rabbis like, no matter what you think, times like this is when you realize they serve a really good role in this world, you know. Yes, And so we called Rabbi Folberg, who bar Mitzvah Dorian, who's been part of our lives ever since we moved to Austin, you know,

since he was a little baby. So I called Rabbi Folbrog. I'm like, you're not going to believe this. Dorian's dead car crash. And so he introduced me to this funeral director, Mitzi, who is incredible through the process. And so I get on the phone with Mitzi and she's like, oh, Austin's very populated cemeteries. She's like, I'm like, this is kind of weird, but like, have you ever done a family burial, like on people's property? And she's like, oh, I did

one in West Texas. Once I said, well, I know this sounds weird, but like I already know I researched this a few years ago and I know that we qualify to do it. She's like, oh, well, that takes like months, you know, to approve for the state to approve something like that, and She's like, but you told me that judge gave you his number and said call him twenty four to seven. He's like, if anyone can make something like this happen, it would be that judge.

So it's like, okay, So I called the judge of Hayes County and I said, Judge, it's mister Queller, Dorian's dad. I know, you know this is a little strange, but we can do a family cemetery on our property. I just I never set that up, you know, like it's that is we want to bury him here on the ranch, can we? He said, ah, he said, dude, that takes months. You know. He's like telling me the same thing. He's like, but he said, let me make a call. We'll get

back to you. So an hour later, the judge calls me and says, mister Queller, your son was so important of this community. The state of Texas is going to green light this. Just get him into the ground and we'll deal with the paperwork later. And that was the first moment where I felt like I could control something.

Because when something like this happens and it shatters you so wide open, it's complete chaos, and it shows you how little control we have over anything, and so for me to be able to call a shot, you know, was like just it was everything in that moment for me. And so then Jewish custom, you know, you're supposed to get the body in the ground pretty quick, twenty four hours. We don't do embalming or anything. You go in a pine box that just you know, goes back into the earth.

Very simple, very you know. And so I called Mitzi from the funeral home. I said, and I'm like, well, who who digs the grave? You know? And she's like, well, you really just need someone who can dig. She's like there's a specific measurements. She's like she's rattling off the measure She's like it needs to be like seven feet long, by this and by this depth, you know, real deep. And I was like, I know who I'm gonna call. Bobby Stevens, the dude who moved the house here, who

moved the barn here. Yeah, he exactly. So I called Bobby Stevens and word it guy. I mean people knew at this point. This is maybe a two days later or something. And I called Bob, having, Bobby, have you ever dug a grave before? And He's like I can't say I have, but I would for you. And I was like, I just start crying. I'm like, oh, Bobby, I'm like, all right, dude, bring your whatever, your back ho or tractors, you know, your digger, bring it over, you know. And dude, that guy dug the grave. So

before you leave, we'll walk over to that spot. I'll show you. So now this is acred land like it already was, but it's like it's like such another level for me to be creative here and like and Dorian was just trying to get home and so we were able to bring him home and he's here so we can go sit with them. You know. We got his picture up over the door. He's always looking down on us and so yeah, he's still with me.

so close. And my mom has a theory that we choose our parents like that, like you know, before you you're born, you get kind of they're like, hey, you can go to these parents or these parents, and you kind of get your soul gets to decide, and so it's kind of this interesting fun game to kind of think through of, Like, so Dorian souls about to come to earth and they're like, well, so there's this Ben

and Liz. You know, the dad's a musician. You always wanted to be a musician and you weren't able to really do it in your past lives. But this one's gonna could be really good for you. Dorian. You're gonna have this little brother, Judah you're gonna really love. But the bummer is you're only going to live to be sixteen, you know, So it's gonna be like a short bang like you know, but dude, you're gonna do so much and you're gonna make such a big impact, and that

Judah is gonna be good. Like we're making it where Judah is going to be really strong so he'll be able to handle this. Your parents have already been through dimer tragedies. You know, your mom lost her mom when she was eight. So like that, I like to kind of game that out. It's again, it lets me feel like everything is okay because it was meant to be that way.

like we're just mourning and it's so horrible. And so I think it was only you know, maybe a few months later when when song ideas start coming to me and I wanted that music. Songwriting has just been the one thing in my life since I was eight years old. That's been the constant, you know, through everything, and so I was really happy when a melody came to me or a phrase idea or something. I'd walk out to the grave, you know, be like, dude, send me some songs, man, Like,

send me some cool ideas. Dude, Like let's keep this going, you know, like let's write a song together, you know. And so I would. I started writing, and so that became this new album which is called Cover the Mirrors, and I call it sort of a moody album, but maybe it's not. I'm really bad at talking about my music. I really know nothing, but to me, it's a moody,

sort of down tempo album. There are some rockers and there's some like up tempo things, but generally for me, it's definitely like a somber feeling.

I'm still like the same guy. And talking to other people that lost children has been a great help for me. And there's one guy that I spoke to and he told me something really interesting that was, you know, I hate to tell you this, but but like now you have a superpower. You never wanted it, but you have it now. And what it is is like your normal happiness scale, Like happiness is kind of here up here,

and your sadness is like down here. But now your happiness is way up here, but your sadness is way down there. And also your like spectrum band of empathy has just increased. And so like it's like this weird like what you've lost everything, but you've also gained this

new superpower. That's always explaining it to me. It's kind of interesting because I feel that, and so it's kind of been fascinating too, like just in the songwriting process too, and just like lyrics and I don't know, they hit differently from me, you know, certain ideas and concepts.

It's I have run everywhere. But but I have ran sounded so much better than run, do you know what I mean? And so now ever since then, I'm like really think through my lyrics in a different ways. I always think of Macy And so with the breaks, that always breaks the heart. So I'm calling the song breaks b R a k e s like the breaks of a car, you know, like the stopping of it. And then it's those breaks like it's the stops right right

that then breaks b our eaks heart. So That's where I'm coming at it from.

was kind of the beginning of that. But there's this song Penny on the Train Track and thirteen where it's like I just went through this moment where I just kept writing verse after verse and but still with like a poppy chorus.

if you're gonna say something like it better be good. So, I mean, I hope that And that's sort of a challenge when I'm writing a song like breaks. I want to take you on a journey, but I like, every word's got to mean something, whether it literally means something or the rhyme of it is interesting enough to just keep you listening, you know. I want it's kind of a fun trick to see if how long I can keep your attention.

there is a lot of strings on this album. You know, I've had songs over the years where it's like maybe an album will have like one or two songs that has strings, or you maybe have one ballad with strings. But this one, almost half the album has strings. And it wasn't intentional. I just kept hearing these string parts in my head now looking back, and when I listened to it, there is like this sort of dare I say, like a funeral element, memorial vibe that just because of

that sound, I don't know, but I love it. I mean it's really comforting. Also, like the lead violinist on all these tracks as a friend of mine in Austin Warren Hood, the best violinist fiddle player ever, so good.

When that's me playing all the instruments, that was me really layering and going for a very lush sound and just there's a lot going on in the speakers of that one, and then of course changing horses. I think of that that's the country.

in the live room. I had the opening phrase, We've been in the rain, We've been on the mountain, We've been around the five And I just kept writing verses, and I had like a sheet of paper for each verse, and I would shuffle him around on the floor and to create eight, What's verse one? What's verse two? And I orchestrated the like I knew that the first verse and the last one. So I knew I was going to end in the taxi when you told me you loved me, and then I wasn't alone. I knew that

was it. You got to have your book ends, at least in my mind, that's you know. If I have that, I'm good. And then so I just orchestrated each verse and what number you know, when they appeared. Ed has been a friend now of mine for many years. We met funny enough. It was like a Thursday. I was home, I was here. I got a call from a booking agent and she said, hey, BK, are you in Austin tomorrow Friday? And I said, yeah, I'm around. She said,

can you open for Ed Sheeran? And I was like, yeah, I mean I guess so like what happened?

like band? What band?

then anyway, we ended up meeting that night. He came up to me after my set and he was like, dude, and he was like, what do you are You? Can you come to Dallas and open tomorrow in Dallas? And I'm like sure, And so I did Dallas and then he was like, can you do Oklahoma City? And then eventually he was just like, just do the rest of the tour. The other guys can't make it. And so I ended up doing this whole East Coast run with Ed back in twenty fifteen, and so we became close friends.

And he called me when him and his wife Cherry were getting married and I was like, mate, can you play thirteen at our wedding as our first dance? I was like, I'd be honored, you know. So we did that and it was really fun, and I just remember in a haze that night during the party him stumbling towards me with Harry Styles and their arms are around each other, and Ed comes up to me. He's like, this has ben fucking quella, Harry. Can you believe that

song thirteen that he played earlier? And Harr's like yeah, man, and Ed's like it doesn't have a fucking chorus, and then Harry's like, yeah, wow, like a song without a chorus, Like they were just like loving that, and I love that, you know what I mean, because I mean these are like so two of the biggest pop stars in the world. Like if you don't have a chorus, you're done, you know, Yeah,

And I think that's one of the reasons. You know, it's obviously like very heartfelt song and you know, it's like taken straight out of my love life with Liz. And then I think, you know, people like Ed and Cherry can relate with that, and you know other people. But from a technical standpoint, I just loved that he loved that it doesn't have a chorus.

of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.