Hello and welcome to our latest episode of the Brighter Thinking Pod from the International Education group of Cambridge University Press and Assessment. I'm your host for this episode. My name is Paul Ellis and I'm head of thought leadership at Cambridge. We created our Brighter Thinking Podcast to support teachers and school leaders around the world. Each episode brings you helpful advice and interesting conversation from authors, teachers and academics.
Following on from our episode, Introduction to Climate Change Education, in this episode, we are going to look more closely at practical guidance for how teachers, school leaders and learners can nurture sustainability education in their school.
Remember, all the links and information that we discuss today are available in the show notes for your ease and if you would like to get your voice heard on the show, you can get in touch on X formally, Twitter, or Instagram at CambridgeINT okay, let's meet our guest. Today I am joined by Dr Mona Chiriac. Mona is an educational consultant, international lead trainer and online tutor. She is also an examiner for AS and A Level geography and other IGCSE subjects including Global
Perspectives. Mona has a master's in leading teaching and learning and was awarded a Summa cum Laude for her PhD thesis on geographies of sustainability education. With over 20 years experience working in the UK and internationally in various capacities, Mona's keen interest is in sustainability education and in enhancing students learning power through effective teaching and learning strategies. Welcome, Mona. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me here.
Great to have you here. Thanks very much for joining us today. Before we start to talk specifically about climate change and sustainability education, can you tell us what inspired you and continues to inspire you to be a geographer? What inspired me initially? Yeah. Oh, it starts with a love story, I'm afraid. My boyfriend at that time, husband, currently was, very good in geography. So I thought that would be the way to get, his attention. But that goes back
many years ago. but my husband is no longer in geography. But I am. So, I guess, what keeps you going is the relevancy of geography is the fact that I can't see how you live in this world without knowing the physical aspects, the human aspects, the interaction between them, the, connectivity, the interdependencies. I think it opens up your eyes to the. To the beauty of where you live, but also now more relevant to what we're going to discuss today, the fragility of it.
so it's constantly changing, and it's constantly relevant. So I think that's what kept me in there, and the discussions with teachers, with people passionate in the field Yeah, I don't think you go into studying geography, maybe you may go accidentally into it, but I don't think you stay in it just by accident. I think you stay with it because it just, helps you develop a passion.
In our previous episodes on climate change education with Christina Ozden, our global director for climate change education at Cambridge, we outlined the key principles that underpin climate change and sustainability education. Why do you think that high quality education in particular is key to tackling the climate crisis? I think that it's this very diversity of places and locations and how different educational systems see their role in society that actually defines what good
education is. So, for example, there are still educational systems that see, knowledge and developing an encyclopaedic mind as being the aim of education. I no longer align. I grew up in that system, but I no longer align with that system because I think education is, of course, far more than this. And here in this institution, we think that education is far more than this. So if education is about, preparing, our young for the future, well, climate change is the main challenge,
right? That That is affecting us and that will affect us. So, therefore, connecting a high quality education with discussions about climate change and sustainability, with causes, with, effects, with impacts, with solutions, with involvement, with caring about it, well, they go hand in hand because you can't prepare students for the future unless you prepare them for this; one of the most challenging things that we're dealing with at the moment. And we will continue to deal with.
So that's potentially the first immediate link. but the other one would probably be the fact that, schools, they tell us what's important, they immediately transmit to students, this is important to talk about. So if we ignore climate change and sustainability education in schools, then it's like almost explicitly telling and passing on the message that this is not important, this is not relevant.
so I don't see how good quality education would ignore a discussion, on climate change and sustainability. And it's also about when we talk about preparing students to be in the world and for the future, it's this idea that the future is what we create, what we create now. And remember, we had that webinar a week ago for the Cambridge schools conference. I was talking there about the fact that we don't land into the future unexpectedly. We build the
future now. So we can't delay the discussion about climate change and sustainability education in schools, because what we work today on is what the future will look like. So to me it's important to make those links. I'm also drawn into this by, and I really admire Gert Biesta's work. He talks about the fact that maybe the role of education, the purpose of education is to create time and space and opportunities, for students to live in the world and with the world
in a 'grown up way'. That's how he defines it. And he defines 'grown up way' as, a, way of being no longer just at the centre of everything, but living, as I said earlier, in and with the world, therefore having this responsibility, and no longer being self centred and self focused. It's about what he says, not taking the world for granted as if it's there for us, as if it's there at our disposal to do with it whatever we want.
So good education is to me a place that actually creates that space and time and allows, as Gert Biesta says, opportunities for students to develop this 'grown upness', as he calls it. And I really link to that, I align very much with that type of thing. Yeah. The work of Biesta is well worth exploring isn't it? And so you're talking then not only about knowledge, you're very much talking about skills, attitudes, competencies as well?
Definitely, definitely. And it's one of the, things that transpire in research around climate change and sustainability education. It's that, well, for a very long time, schools have no longer been just about knowledge. They have been about skills and about developing these, skills that make us then live in the world. So skills are not just overlooked, they are very important skills to just communicate about something in a fluent manner, in a coherent manner,
in a convincing way. We talk about not just communication, but also about collaboration. we talk about working together rather than in competition, one way or the other, because that's what's human part of us needs communication, collaboration and community. Absolutely. It's in this co words and other words, how to get on with each other, but also how to create dialogues with other people, perhaps. Yes, and that's part of developing those skills. But it's also
about what do I take out of it. So take research, right, we mentioned what do I take out of it? what is relevant, what is not, what is biassed, what comes with a hidden agenda in the messages. And we can't just assume that students would know where they are from. I don't know. I learned research when I was at university. That was the first time I was asked to do a piece of research. Whereas there's no longer, okay, these skills can be taught much,
much earlier. And yes, of course, maybe it's, Some people would say that. Isn't it a bit too pretentious to say that you're teaching a five year old research? Well, yes, but there's the elements of research, right. Which is about where do you get your information from? It's about how do you know it's trustworthy and what type of information are you going to use in order to make your case? How are you going to communicate verbally, non verbally?
How do you become convincing in your argument? And that can be taught from much, much earlier on without me having to wait to be 20 something at university and my professor having to tell me. And what do you think? And I was like, I don't know, but I can tell you everything that Piaget thinks, and I can tell you everything that Vygotsky thought. Okay, but what do you think? I don't know because nobody has ever asked me before
what I thought about something. So, yes, it's good. Quality education is about bringing that to the forefront so we don't have to wait for it. So it's all of those things scaffolding education throughout, from an early age all the way upwards. And we keep learning as well, of course. Absolutely. Let's have a, think about what schools themselves then could do. If they want to introduce climate change and sustainability education, what should they first be focusing on?
They can't focus on everything, of course, because if they're starting out, that's too much. It's just basic and obvious to say that. What should be their guiding principles if they're starting out with climate change and sustainability education? Yes, but there's a lot of research in schools and climate education and sustainability in schools. And I think, of course, like in every academic world and research world, there are pros and
cons for something. But it seems to me that everybody seems to be in agreement that it needs a whole school approach, first and foremost. And though this has been said for a very long time now, and it is not something that's new, unfortunately, if it permeated school levels, I believe it only permeated
at a level of curriculum integration. If, and even in those places, there might still be confusions between climate change or sustainability education and environmental education, and there's still confusion around these terms.
So. But what we're advocating for and in the research world, what they're advocating for is a whole school approach whereby climate change and sustainability education is not just at the level of the curriculum, but at the level of governance, at the level of practises, at the level of partnerships that the school develops. so it's literally infusing the school community with this. so the work of Stephen
Sterling comes to mind. he extensively wrote about this and about the need for schools not to be just subjects of change, but agents of change. So it is not just enough for schools to change the way they operate, but it's about how they then go beyond the school's gate and promote sustainability and climate change education and their involvement with the rest of the
community. and there are these. So the first approach or guiding principle would be this whole, ah, school approach that's also recommended by UNESCO and other researchers in the field. but yes, there are other, principles. you've been talking there about the sense of the collective sense of responsibility in a school for everybody to get involved and ways of immersing all learners, all staff in the experience. Can you tell us a bit more about why that's important?
Well, I believe it's important because remember those, years when every teacher was a literacy teacher and every, through every subject we had to teach numeracy? And, I believed in those because I think. Yes, that's right. Well, actually, it's time for sustainability and climate change education because it's not just the responsibility of the geography teacher, because they know about the, you know, the physical and the human
intersection. And, it is the responsibility of absolutely every single one of us to discuss. It's as if I would tell a maths teacher that it's your business to teach my geography students how to read bar graphs. Well, it's not because I teach those numerical skills in geography as well. Well, equally, the mathematician, the maths teacher would have to find ways to relate their subject to sustainability because it's for everyone, it's not just in certain subjects.
So you could say it's both interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary in approach. Multidisciplinary in that you've got to have people within their subject areas teaching what they need to teach and getting through the curriculum, etcetera. But interdisciplinary because as you're describing there, it goes across different subject areas and is part of how life is outside school as well. Well, I think that's what it is. I think multidisciplinary approach is a very good one, because it adds
depth to it. And, I believe that education is about research based, strong founded knowledge. Don't get me wrong, it is very important. it's not, skills or knowledge. We don't divorce those two. We shouldn't divorce those two. So knowledge is important. I believe a multidisciplinary approach, adds the depth and the detail and the strong, solid foundation to really understand the mechanisms of sustainability issues or of climate change.
well, clearly a science teacher, you know, or a geography teacher, they have a lot of depth, but equally, the mathematics teacher or the biology teacher, they can add a lot of depth to it. So strong, multidisciplinary, but. And to me, this is important. The world out there is not in boxes, right? So it's not, this is, today, just about the earth. And when you step out this door is going to be just about your
mathematical skills. The world doesn't function like this. The world is in interconnected and interdependent. And if we just keep to boxes, we don't really emulate what happens outside, so we don't mirror the reality of our world, and the reality is not boxed.
So I strongly believe in an interdisciplinary approach, or at least creating opportunities for students to have exposure to interdisciplinary approaches in teaching or in learning about climate change and sustainability education, because otherwise, I think we jeopardise the real. What it means. We don't actually teach what's out there, and I believe it's important that we're believable. I think we lose credibility. It's applicable to the real world.
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. So, yes, interdisciplinary is also very important aspect. Thank you. teachers are busy people. they've got lots to get from their curriculum. Can you say that again? Teachers are busy people! I repeat that benefit our listeners. They absolutely are. so they've got plenty on their plate, they've got plenty to get through in their curriculum. Now, increasingly here at Cambridge, we're making sure that climate change issues
come into the curriculum. But how can we make sure that teachers don't feel overloaded? But also, how can they bring climate change and sustainability education more broadly into their teaching and also into how they eventually assess students as well? I think the first step, potentially, is for them to, To find out more, to, read more about it, to, strengthen their own understanding of climate change and sustainability education. I believe there are still strong misconceptions, in, what it
means. I believe, it's still, in many respects, mistaken for environmental management looking after the environment, which I think this is just a tiny little component of what sustainability education is about. So, first of all is getting a strong understanding of what it is. And we
can't blame the teachers. As you said, they're very busy, but they're also maybe sustainability education was surely not part of their teacher training, of the debate that went on in school at that time when they were there. So they have to keep up with what's going on. and then once this is done, I believe it's important, as I said earlier, that every teacher sees themselves as a sustainability teacher, not just in their own little
boxes. So maybe the second step would be to, okay, if this is important and we recognise that this is important, how can I, through my subject, expose students to, sustainability education or to issues that have to do with climate change or with sustainability? And every single subject has something to do with it, because our lives, every single aspect of our lives has something to do with it. it's just a matter of staying there, reflecting and thinking, how can my subject deliver this?
So it's finding the opportunities, making the obvious connections. Absolutely. And sometimes not just the obvious, even the hidden ones that they need to come out to the surface. yes. And then once you recognise, and if you get to the point, and hopefully you do get to the point where you see that, yes, your subject is relevant and you can approach sustainability issues and climate change issues through your subject, is, then the next step would probably be
to say, okay, but let me just do an audit. And I've read a lot of research about schools that have started audits. and now we're talking just about subject, right? Because I already talked about whole school approach, but audits of okay, let's say English in this text. Could I interpret this text in a way that sustainability issues come across? Can that be? Or can I find new texts, talk about cli -fi, right, a
climate fiction, text. Could I add new text that would put students in a way of understanding, sustainability better or at least engaging with the debate. so auditing their current situation in their schools, in their subjects, auditing their resources and just start small. I mean, I know that there are other people there who advocate for huge, ginormous change and revolutionary change. I don't
think that will happen. So I go by a step by step approach just because I think there's also value in actually seeing what you've got and use that, yes, to look at climate change and sustainability. And of course, students themselves will be making those connections, won't they? Because they're very well aware. They're perhaps more aware than we might give
them credit for sometimes outside the classroom. So they'll come in perhaps from another subject saying, oh, yeah, we spoke about that in such and such a subject that makes clear connections, what we're now talking about in this lesson, doesn't it? Absolutely. And it's about this coherence. We're talking about students
coming from another subject, getting to your subject. But if we work in isolation, me in my geography classroom, you in your french classroom or another classroom, and think about the message that these students are getting. It's as if, right, the verb is important here, and you have to learn how to create sentences, you know, grammatically accurate in here. But when you go to geography, what is important is about learning about settlements. But then they're getting this boxed information
of things that are relevant. But as an alternative, talking about sustainability in French, I move from French to geography. Oh, there you go. Sustainability is also an issue. And then you go, an issue to discuss, I mean, and then you go to mathematics, and I'm learning how to do this and look at data, climate data, and interpret patterns, do statistical analysis or predictions that are to do with changes in
temperature or whatever. So all of a sudden we have this coherent message about things that are important. so, yes, I believe that teachers can do a lot, not just into their own little box, but actually opening the discussion with one, with another departments, with other departments, and creating a coherent message that sends this message of how important this is. Okay, but not forced connections, natural connections, as we're saying there, of course. So staying with the students as well.
Now, a lot of surveys and research suggest that children are, keen to take climate change action, but they also get quite anxious in thinking about the global problem. So something which is bigger than them and therefore what they can personally do about it. So how do you think that school is going to help young people navigate the complex issues that we're talking about here? I think the global is indeed overwhelming, right? Because it's like, what can I do about
it? So way back, I think it must have been, 2005, 2006 I was teaching as and a level students, and I was teaching about climate change. But I think at that time, it had nothing to do with sustainability, right? At that time it was just about the mechanisms of it. But, I had a student, and she sticks to my mind even to this day. Alice. And, when teaching about this and when teaching about strategies and mitigation and solutions. Her response way back then was, but Miss, what do you
want me to do about this? This is so big. And she was so disheartened, and I felt guilty and I did not know what the answer was at that time because, she felt overwhelmed with, with the responsibility of it. So what can students do about it? I think the most important part is to make sure that they are accurately informed and for us as adults to make sure that the information gets to them
accurately and age appropriately. I, think it would be overwhelming for my eight year old to know everything I know about the mechanisms of climate change. So that would be one way of staying informed and for us to just guide them through that process. but encourage the dialogue and encourage the discussion, because I think, again, we are more scared of things that we don't discuss. It's, we don't know what it is, and if we don't know what it is and everybody shushes about it and
doesn't talk about it, it creates more anxiety. But if we create space to discuss, create space to express those feelings, you might say anxiety or sometimes anger, then we can negotiate them and we can deal with them, differently. it's also about raising this, having opportunities to see that your actions matter and their actions do matter. but we also have, unfortunately, people, who are jaded about it. So people who, don't believe in it, people who, bring in their own
beliefs and conflicts. and I believe we need to openly discuss, consider our role as teacher. Is it, to pass on our fears or is it to help students navigate their world? how about we create opportunities for those emotions to come out, in our subjects? to write something about your emotions in art, to create a piece of art, a sculpture, a painting, in music, to write a song, rap it, do something that is an avenue to express your feelings about it.
What I'm most afraid about is actually not the anxiety, because that's what I'm mostly dreading, is the disconnect from it. and in my research, I found out that if my students, the ones that I interviewed and the ones that I worked with, they no longer placed climate change of something that is of interest to them, they placed other things of sustainability.
So I'm worried more about the fact that if we don't create those avenues, if we don't allow space for the discussion, then they will disconnect from it. And I think disconnection is far worse, than the other ones. And yes, potentially in schools we can actually have mental health services or counselling on these issues because they are important and we shouldn't overlook or downplay their importance.
So it takes us back to those guiding principles where we started and having whole school approach collectors sense of responsibility, making sure that people have those opportunities, the space, the right kind of environment to pardon the pun, where people really can and then talk about what they need to in this area. They can get the knowledge, get the skills, get the tools. but we can also showcase them. Examples of positive ways of
being engaged. And there are out there so many examples of schools of young, people who have achieved something in their work towards climate change or raising awareness or so getting them involved. And you might argue like what can a five year old, what kind of agency does a five year old have? But actually, you know, if they grow up caring, if they grow up with empathy, if they grow up doing things, tiny little things, I appreciate a five year
old cannot do a lot. But if they grow up in projects that, where they see the community involved, when they see that their role matters, when they see that they're voice is heard and they are involved, then they will become these agents, of change, exposing them to stories of success and creating opportunities for them to have their own success stories. I think this is something that we can do for young, children or young adults so that they are involved in this. Two nights ago
we were at this restaurant in Kenya. we were having dinner. there were these two children and one saw, an insect. I don't even know what it was. I think it was bigger than a cricket. It was something, I call it a cricket, but I don't think it was. But anyway, so this child has the thing to go look at that insect and then really wanted to stamp on it. I just observed how the dad took action then and said, hold on a minute, why do you want to stamp on it? This is a creature. What
does it do to you? Shouldn't we allow them? I don't think it's a good idea. And it's just those tiny little things of actually accepting and understanding that we're not the centre of the world, that the non human is so important to our living as well. And this is not, as I said, this is not done at 20. This is done when you're a three year old and you want to crush an insect. So yes, children can get involved in a lot of ways and we should create opportunities for them.
Wonderful. That's a good note to end on, really. if schools, teachers, young people want to know more, where would you recommend they go to find more information? If they're either wanting to understand more about what climate change is, or to research particular aspects of climate change and sustainability education, what, in your experience, are good places to go to? Well, I think it depends on who these people are and what their role and what their aim and purpose
is. So maybe a good place to start would be our climate change education webpage, because it has an introduction paper, and it's a really good way to start into this debate. It also has a survey through which we engage teachers to, engage in this debate. We care about what people say and we care about what they say, not just here in the UK, but we have this avenue, which is an amazing avenue to actually take into consideration this global aspect. We were
talking about global earlier. but if not through, that would be, I think, accessible. these UNESCO. UNESCO documents are very accessible, and they have a lot of things, even from sort of leadership, teaching and learning classroom, strategies for, climate change and for sustainability. M if you are more into it and you're thinking, I'm a researcher, I want to know more about it, then clearly your way to go would be
journals. And they are. There are special journals dedicated to sustainability or to sustainability education, so they can be accessed. And trust me, the moment you get there, then you see, an article that doesn't it? Yeah. And then the other one goes. And then the other goes. There are also books. I remember before I started my PhD, I could barely get my hands on something to read. Now, I need to have a selection of things because there are so much out there. So. Yes, there are a lot of
resources. It's a matter of doing it in such a way so it doesn't overwhelm you, because it can overwhelm you. So, take it slowly, but at least definitely, get engaged, with this debate. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Mona. Pleasure. So that's all we've got time for in this episode. thanks so much for being such a fantastic guest and sharing so many really useful insights. We've scratched the surface, it feels, but at the same time, we've covered a lot, I think, in this
episode. So if you'd like to find out more about what Cambridge is doing to support climate change education, you can visit the dedicated pages on our website, as Mona mentioned, and read the guides and other information we have placed there, and we'll continue to do as well. And you can also view a recording of the breakout session that Mona facilitated for our recent online schools conference in March 2024. So you can find your way to that on our website as well.
Don't forget to tell your friends and colleagues all about us, and rate our show on whatever platform you're listening on. our show notes have lots of useful links, including those that Mona, has mentioned in this episode, so be sure to take a look at those as well. If you want to follow up on some of those. You can also follow us on X and on Instagram at, Cambridge Int. So thank you for listening and we hope you will join us again soon. Goodbye.