Six thirty in the morning, Kevin Gordon and for Brian Thomas fifty five KR see the talk station, and as always we've got Tech Friday with my good friend Dave Hatter, or as I like to call it, scare that hell out of here Friday.
Dave, how are you this morning?
I'm good. I'm good. Kevin, how are you?
You're not bad at all, not bad at all. It's been a while since we've talked, which is a shame.
That's not right.
So I hate that I'm always scaring people, but always good to Charlie and hopefully Kevin, we're doing some good out there.
Of course, it's always necessary to let people know what's going on, because I mean, there are so many people that are just you hear these things from time to time and it's just frightening as to all the scams and stuff that are there.
Well, and you know, this is what I do for a living in my day job, and you know a big part of what we try to do with Interust is help you defend against these things and then be resilient so if you get hit as a business with one of these, you can recover quickly with minimal impact. But Unfortunately, unfortunately, these scams are running rampant. These folks
are very smart. I mean, I can easily spend this whole half hour just telling you real world stories of things I personally have seen our companies experience, and in some cases they're devastating. Some companies do not recover from these things.
I want to stop you for a second third day've hatter because you kind of minimize something there you talk about your day job and this sort of thing. What I know about you is that you know, there are people they're probably about four or five people that I know of that I've passed or that I've met through business contacts and whatever, that really have a passion for what it is they do. They are a student of what they do. They tend to I mean, I mean, I've talked to you on a number of on a
number of different issues. It's not like you're just you know, just as you know, blinders on single focus, but you are actually a student of this.
You enjoy it, you like it.
There's a certain amount I can tell you know when we talk about you have a passion for this, and that is rare. So it's not just a job to you. It's a passion, and it's something that you totally are doing a service to people and you enjoy what you do so well.
That is a very time compliment and I appreciate that. But you know, I'm pretty nerdy Kevin, so I do. I enjoy the technology, but I also feel a little guilty sometimes because you know, I spent almost twenty five years of my career as a software engineer building this sort of stuff for people, and that's partially how I got into the cybersecurity pieces. I kept seeing the same mistakes being made. I kept seeing there there was not
a focus on security. You know, most of most of the time, that focus would be on can I make what you want work? Can I get it done on time and within budget, as opposed to one of the downstream consequences if this, if this has a security breach of some sort, And that's really kind of what got And then then when I started to see all these nation state actors get in the game, China and Russia, Iran, North Korea, there's sort of the access of evil, if
you will, in cybersecurity of the nation state actors. Keep in mind, you've got criminal gangs all around the world, you know, voting, these attacks on people, individuals, businesses. I'll tell you this is a true story, Kevin, first hand knowledge of this Cincinnati based company referred to us to a partner and an accounting company. They lost nine hundred and eighty three thousand dollars through account takeover that led to fraudulent invoices. And we see this sort of thing wow
all the time. Now, what company has a spare nine hundred and eighty three thousand dollars laying around?
I wish I did, but I don't.
Yeah, yeah, me too, brother. That would be you know, devastating, if not potentially catastrophic for many businesses to lose that kind of money.
Well, you know, and Dave, that's not just the nine hundred and some thousand dollars. I mean, yeah, okay, that's a that's a hole in the budget. But when you look from an accounting standpoint at that company and you look at what their revenue is and what their bottom line is, let's say it's ten percent, That ten percent would equate to in order to make that nine hundred
million dollars back. What is that something like nine billion in sales that you are nine hundred whatever the number is in sales so that you can equal that profit to pay that nine hundred million dollars.
Yeah, it's you raise another very valid point that oftentimes is misunderstood out there in the world of business until something bad happens. And I totally understand that your average business person is trying to run their business. They're trying to make money, they're trying to grow the business. They got all kinds of worries and concern and things that they want to do, things they're trying to do to be successful. I totally get that they don't want to
have to know about all these things. They don't want to have to worry about this stuff. And what I often hear is, oh, we're a small business. We don't have anything worth stealing, and your money is worth stealing, and if you make it easy, they will steal your money.
It's amazing how creative and deedious these folks are. And now you're throw in these generative AI tools, whether it's something like chats ept that can generate perfect English pros versus the broken English we would see in these attacks ten fifteen years ago, or all the way up to deep fake voice cloning. And I have people tell me all the time. They don't believe it. Kevin, I'm here to tell you, and I may have told you this before. John Matterich and WCPO called me up. We did a
TV interview in less than one hour. I swear this is true, and you can look it up on their website. In less than one hour from the time he called me, I went out and found a free website that claimed to clone a voice. I'd never used it before. I'd never tried this before. I just knew it is a thing freesight, no experience. I get on there, I mess with a little bit. John shows up and in less than an hour you can see it in the interview I did with him.
We clone his voice.
Now he had to read a sentence a couple of times to train the tool, and then you can watch me in the interview type in Hello gram all this is John, I needs your help, hit a button and it comes out to speakers. Now that was no experience with a free tool two years ago. These things are way better. And then, Kevin, when I always get is well, Dave, I'm not a celebrity. How would you get my voice?
How would the average criminal get my voice? I'm the CEO of the company X, or the mayor of city Y or whatever.
Do you have a voicemail greeting?
You do, I am you? I am you in less than fifteen minutes now that I encourage all of your listeners.
It is very.
Frightening because most people don't know it's a thing, and even if they've heard of it, don't believe it could happen to them. Again, if you have a voicemail greeting, if your voice is out there somewhere in social media or anywhere that a criminal can get to, you can potentially be deep voice clone.
I encourage all your listeners.
This was well documented in the media. The CEO of Ferrari had his voice voice clone and nearly fooled the CFO of Ferrari, the car people that they work with together all the time, nearly fooled them into making a financial transaction. It was only at the last minute, but the CFO started to get.
A weird vibe.
Everything was very unusual about what the CEO was asking for, and the CEO asked the quote CEO a question that only the CEO could know, and at that point the jig was up. He realized this was some kind of scam. This that is going to be a tsunami of crime, and.
It is here today.
I stress enough to people how it is. Just watched watch the interview John and I did. Go WCPO website or find me on social media. You'll find it and you'll see how easy this is.
Unbelievable. Well, Dave, we need to step out real quick and we'll come back. I want to continue on with this, and I got a little story last month. I was down at the Mid America Trucking Show and some of the technology that's coming out there in the AI area is right along this line of what you're talking about. And I can see how that's great from their aspect, but how criminals can use that also.
So we'll pick this up.
My guest is Dave Hatter, cybersecurity expert, the top cybersecurity expert in the Greater Cincinnati and in my opinion, anywhere. I'm Kevin Gordon in for Brian Thomas, fifty five krs, the talk.
Station, fifty five KARC. So how do we create value? This is great six forty one in the morning.
Kevin Gordon in for Brian Thomas, fifty five krs, the talk station. Continuing our conversation with Dave Hatter, cybersecurity expert, one of the premier cybersecurity experts in the area, and from my opinion, anywhere that I've found anyway.
So Dave I mentioned.
Before the before the break that I had been down at the Mid America Trucking Show last month and one of the big people or one of the big advertisers down there that was making a splash is this using
this AI technology? And he stopped by the booth and we had the interview and he talked about how this program that they have is geared towards the trucking industry and AI, I guess, is getting so specific now that when you are doing like voice commands or voice that it kind of can translate not only you know, you can do a sentence in English, French and whatever, and it will combine that and give the translation to a
specific individual or get that out. Also they are interpreting better what he called what he referred to as blue collar English. And then it's specific because if you're in the trucking realm and this is a tool for the trucking realm instead of misunderstanding, as I texted you before the show or before we came on, I voicemailed or voiced a text to you and the word came out completely bizarre. But because of the text of what we're
talking about, it would have corrected that. And I think, you know, from the aspects of getting load boards and finding loads and negotiating of AI, negotiating all the business and stuff with your truck so you don't have to do it while you're driving, is great. But then again, the way that can be used as what you were talking about, how that can be used, as you said with Ferrari, how you can really scam something is frightening.
Yeah, I agree with you, Kevin. This technology is rapidly progressed. Now, I want to be really honest and tell you I don't think skynet is going to become aware anytime soon. We're not going to see terminators dropping out of the sky, wiping us all out or anything like that. Now, I also say, you know, I don't know what's in some lamp somewhere, Kevin, but I can just tell you if I'm working with.
The tools that are readily available.
Today, things like chatsypt or rock which is Ex's generative AI, or things like that, there's still a lot of limitations. And one of the concerns that many people raise on a regular basis is these things sollucinate. They just make things up. You know, maybe it's correct eighty percent of the time, and twenty percent of the time you don't know if what you've got is right or not. You know,
that's one of the limitations. But to your point, you're also seeing more and this is not new, but it's come on rapidly and you're seeing it's spreading a lot of fields. Purpose built AI things that are designed to do a specific type of task. You know, chatsypt is, it can't do everything, but it can do a lot of different things fairly well.
But there are other.
Ais out there that have a specific type of task they're trying to do, and many of them are, you know, pretty spectacular. I can tell you we use some AI internally at Interest to do things like answer phone calls and rout them to the right people faster. So rather than have a human being kind of doing a routine, mundane, boring task all day long, they can focus on higher
value things. They can focus on, you know, getting faster resolutions for our clients that sort of stuff, but this voice cloning thing, and it's not just voice, right, it's deep fake video as well. There are some documented examples in the media out there of people on how just call it a video conference for lack of a better description, where they think they're talking to a human being.
There has been a plethora.
Of stories hitting the news about deep fake AI being used for job interviews and that sort of thing.
So I think it's never been more important, Kevin, for people to understand.
The old adage of you know, if you see it, you can believe it kind of thing is no longer true because much of this technology is good enough now, especially if you're not aware this is a thing, especially if you're not thinking, am I actually talking to a human being here? Or am I somehow my talking to some sort of AI agent, whether it's a voice sort of video or whatever. And people go learn as much about this as you can.
I mean, you don't need.
To get into the business. Just go find some of these stories. Read that CEO story.
See, there's got to be and there's got to be some way.
Uh.
And I'm sure that somebody could probably make a fortune at this, and maybe we should develop it ourselves. Dave, and then we can retire being able to buy the words that are used, the phrases that are used, or maybe questions that you can ask to find out whether in fact you're dealing with AI or a human being or something like that.
I don't know.
I don't know if that technology is out there yet, but that would certainly there are.
There are lots of smart people working on that technology to try to you know, whether it's watermark.
Something or yeah, sometimes have a way to know that something is a deep daki the problem as I see it, and also you know, I'm not I don't have deep, deep knowledge in that space, especially the space of people trying to help you determine whether something's legit or not.
Is the technology is moving very quickly, and the bad guys are super creative.
Again, we could.
Spend this entire segment, Kevin, I could probably talk to you for more than three hours. We could actual stories.
We're heading in that direction, my friend.
The creativity of the bad guys, it's quite insane.
And what's even more insane, Dave Hatter, is the legislators trying to rain this in. They are at least what three years behind.
It's it's tough.
I can tell you. I end up, you know, talking to legislators in Kentucky a lot on these technology topics, trying to you know, give some insight and steer these conversations. I'm genuinely an anti regulation sort of guy.
I know, this is such a wild.
West out there, and it's it's moving so quickly, and I'm really concerned both for business related fraud and individual fraud. I mean, people are losing their life staving.
Yes, Businesses are.
Losing huge amounts of money, are going out of business because of this stuff.
And it's one of those things and until it actually hits you, you just, oh, that's the other guy.
That's not going to happen to me. That's not going to happen to me, exactly.
I fully understand how hard it is for people to believe this.
All right, we need to talk and we need to talk about that because you presented this this what is it for Scouts twenty five report? We got to bring that up before we get out of here. Run up against the clock, but we'll step out here for a moment and we'll come back and hit that. My guest is Dave Hatter. He is a cybersecurity expert and love talking to him. I'm Kevin Gordon and for Brian Thomas, fifty five KRC The talk station
Fifty five KARC get ready to vote