It's Hey No.
Five right now, fifty five KRCD talk station and looking forward to this moment all morning. It is a distinct pleasure to welcome one of my op ed here is over the Wall Street Journal, Jason Riley. He's a fellow at the Manhattan Institute and columnist for the Wall Street Journal. He's been writing in The Wall Street Journal about politics, economics, education, immigration,
and social inequality for a couple of decades plus. He is the author of multiple books, including Please Stop Helping Us, How Liberals make it Harder for Blacks to Succeed, as well as Maverick, a biography of Thomas Sole, another hero of mine. Welcome to the fifty five krc Morning Show, Jason Riley. It's a pleasure to have you taught on the program to talk about your new book, The Affirmative Action, myth why Blacks don't need racial preferences to succeed.
Good morning, Thank you for having me, Thank you, and.
Thank you for doing such a wonderful job with your columns on the Wall Street Journal. I always look forward to reading what you have to say. It's a very very well logical, reasonable and always makes great deal of sense. So thanks for what you're doing, and also for writing the book about another hero of mine, Thomas Soule. I had the privilege of interviewing Thomas soul as well as waltere Williams, who I do believe both commented on or have written articles about the topic of your book, the
empirical data. Yeah, I mean, is that where you were inspired to write this? Perhaps?
Well, much of my journalistic career and book writing career has been inspired by both of those guys, both heroes of mine. So yes, their writings, their research not only informs this book, but informs a lot of my.
Journalism well their lived experience as well. I remember, I believe it was Walter Williams talking about his childhood, you know, and he grew up in an era where there was no affirmative action, there was no you know, great society programs, and he ended up doing quite well himself.
Yeah, both he and and Seul have pointed out the differences in their childhood in terms of black advancement. And that's one of the things I point out in this book. I mean, the great myth that I mentioned in the title is the myth that blacks need affirmative action, they
need special preferences. They need set asides and quotas to get ahead in society, and that without affirmative action, you know, there would be no black middle class, or there would be no blacks and higher education or in the skilled professions. And that just isn't true. And you're right, both Slul and Williams, and as I point out in the book, there's a lot of data to back that up. For example, between nineteen forty and nineteen sixty, the black poverty rate
fell from eighty seven percent to forty seven percent. That's a forty point drop. There was no affirmative action during that period. That was before the Civil Rights Act of sixty four, the Voting Rights Act of sixty five. It was before a black present or before blacks any kind of real political clout in this country in terms of running large cities with large black populations. A forty point drop in the black poverty rate, and so people look at the black middle class today and say, oh, that's
a product of affirmative action. No, it isn't. Black people lifted themselves out of poverty well before there was racial favoritism leaning in their favor. If anything, they did it when there was racial favoritism in the other direction.
Yeah, and that's certainly demonstrated by the numbers. And we all know that period of time in the nation's history, you know, with a Jim Crow Law still in place in some areas, and separate but not equal schooling and things like that, they were still able to make great advances in economic prosperity as well. But how much of this shift the problems facing the black community do you connect with the well, the disintegration of the nuclear family.
Oh quite a bit, quite a bit. In fact, you can see all of these trends, whether it's climbing out of poverty, greater black incomes, greater Black educational attainment, greater Black movement into the middle class professions, all of those things.
You saw a black white convergence happening in the forties and the fifties and the sixties, and right toward the end of the nineteen sixties, right around the Great Society Programs under Johnson, when they kick in, you start to see these trends stall or in some cases even reverse course. And one of them is the rise in incomes relative to white incomes that was growing in a very fast
clip prior to the late nineteen sixties. And one of the reasons it stalls is because you start to see a proliferation of single black families in the late sixties, and it's very hard for a single parent family to compete economically with a two parent family, and so that black white convergence seems to starts to stall around this period, and that is what has plagued a lot of black
progress since the late nineteen sixties. And notwithstanding affirmative action, is this breakdown of the black family and a welfare state that subsidizes you know, anti social behavior, counterproductive habits, and so forth. And so that's been a huge, huge problem that doesn't get nearly enough.
Attention, No it doesn't. And you know, just the simple absence of a father in a child's life I think has a profound impact. I mean, I'm blessed that I was able to grow up in a full family. I had a dad that was always there, you know, sort of the well, the guy who laid down the law when you got out of hand, you know, that kind
of thing. It's the importance of that father figure. You're providing an example, an illustration of the value of hard work, getting up in every day and helping to put food on the table. I mean, whether or not the man makes a whole lot of money, just the fact that that person is there being an inspiration, I think is really it's just a terrible loss for many families.
Right And as late as the early nineteen sixties, two out of three black children were being raised in a home with a mother and a father. Today seventy percent or not. And that's a huge, huge problem for all the reasons you just stated. We know the litany of problems that are associated with single parent homes, from you know, involvement in the criminal justice system, more likelihood of that not finishing school, involvement in drug and alcohol abuse and
so forth, and becoming a single parent yourself. All of those things are detrimental to upward mobility. And I used to say back when when President Obama was in the White House, I'd say, you know, that's great, that's a great symbolic victory for Black America and for America in general. But it's far more important to have a black man in the home than in the white House.
That's a good point. Well, And I guess I wonder why we continue down the same path. If anyone were to talk about removing some of these programs. And I know the Supreme Court recently ruled that, you know, race based college emissions is unconstitutionals. That's supposed as a step in the right direction toward a meritocracy. But we have generational welfare dependency. There's almost an expectation that, well, you're going to grow up and you're going to be on welfare.
I mean, the programs haven't worked. That your evidence, your empirical data that you point out in your book, Affirmative Action myth shows that we haven't made any progress. In fact, that there has been regression. So how is it that people who are interested in serving the black community and really wanting to help and get people elevated out of property keep barking up the same tree.
Yes, and it's you know, right now, we see that as a bipartisan problem. You look at this fight over over Medicaid reform, where you have even Republicans who are reluctant to put in place work requirements. We have a lot of able bodied adults, able bodied men, working age men receiving welfare benefits and no one wants to touch this,
these entitlement programs, and it's a shame. Obviously, the reform would would renown to the benefit of a disproportionate number of blacks, but it would help the poor in general. I mean, if you're going to pay people not to work, you're going to get more people not working. We know that, and that's what we continue continue to do, and so I'd like to see this reform I think would be
a huge step for the country. But we've really got to get you both parties involved, because there still seems to be a third rail in our in our political system.
Well, Jason Riley off of the book, we're talking about the affirmative action myth why blacks don't need racial preferences to succeed. Going back to the work requirement, and I've been screaming about this now since they started bickering over whether or not through heavi work requirement. We're talking about able bodied people without any physical problems, that do not have children in the home. These are folks that could easily with that mandated hour twenty hours a week or
eighty hours a month, get education. In the trades. There are millions of jobs in the trades out there. This is a way to lift someone up out of poverty permanently because well, guess what, They're going to have a job.
Yes, exactly, And the job is the best anti poverty program out there. If you know, i'n't seen intact. Family is also an anti poverty program. Indeed, so is a job.
So as a job, I wish there are more people preaching your message there, Jason Riley. And the other thing that I I you know, I am not black, I know you are, but you know, I express insult on behalf of every black person out there when I see these these folks screaming in the streets about like, for example, saying a voter ID requirement is racist or fill in the blank is racist. And I'm thinking to myself, how what an insult to every block back person out there.
They're saying out loud that you are incapable of performing such a simple task as getting a driver's license. I mean your reaction to something like that, Jason, Well.
It's an example. It's like affirmative action, a voter ID, laws, school choice. These are issues where when you pull blacks in general, you get one response, and when you pull black elites and civil rights activists and so forth, you get a different response. So the Black public in general supports voter id laws, they support school choice, and they oppose affirmative action. Black elites are on the other side
of every one of those issues. And I blame my profession somewhat the media for running to these elites, running to the Black Lives Matter activists, the NAACP folks, and so forth, to express opinion on behalf of all Black people, when in fact they do not represent most Black people. They simply represent themselves. An affirmative action is yet another
example of that. Most Blacks, along with most of the country, supported that Supreme Court decision ending race based college admissions, even if the black elites did not well.
And that's another point you make in your book, The taints Black achievement When you have someone out there who is brilliant or smart, or demonstrably has the merit to fill any position and they end up getting employed and they're looked at with like a Jaundysteinm's suspicion is that, Okay, how did you really get the job? Was it through an affirmative action program or you a diversity higher or do you really have the skill sets necessary to compete
with the rest of us out there? And that's a terrible thing that you have to walk around with thinking that perception is out in the world.
Jason, Yes, it is. No one wants to be the token and campus or in the workforce, and so yes, that is a problem. In the Supreme Court decision, the majority opinion talked about the stereotyping that is associated with affirmative action. It also sets up smart kids to fail. And what I mean by that is that you most of these black kids that are admitted to say a Duke or Harvard or a Cornell, with lower test scores than the average white student on campus are still scoring
well above the national average. They're just not scoring as high as their peers at those elite institutions. And so they're struggling at those elite institutions. They're dropping out at higher rates. They're pooling at the bottom of the class where they would be thriving at a less selective institution. I mean, what is the point of flunking out of Michigan instead of graduating from Michigan State. They're flunking out of North Carolina instead of graduating from North Carolina State.
And that's what we've had systematically happening over the past fifty years of affirmative action. You have black you have white kids and Asian kids matched with schools that fit their preparation. You have black kids funneled into schools where they are not prepared and struggle just because these college campuses want racial balance or they want a college catalog that looks like America. And I think that's wrong. These kids are being used and I'm glad that the Supreme Court ruled the way.
That it did, as am I Jason Riley, and let me just pick your rain briefly in the marineing moment we have here the idea of this, I don't know if it's in the name of DEI or what the education system. I think the public education system seems to
be failing our children miserably. And you can see it in cities like Baltimore, in Chicago where you have a predominantly black classroom, but them advancing children to the next grade level even though they demonstrate they don't demonstrate adequate grade level proficiency, which just sets them up for failure in the next grade. If you don't have the foundation for the next grade level material, you can't succeed moving forward.
This is something that is in profound need of being fixed. Jason, your thoughts.
You're right, and I mean, I'm writing a book about affirmative action that talks about what we should do at the college level. But you're right, this is really a K through twelve problem that cannot be fixed when someone sits down to take the SAT score at age eighteen. This is something we need to address early. And the sad part is that we have the education models out there to help the most disadvantaged kids. They're culture arter schools,
they're called vouchers, they're called tax credits. They work, they work especially well for low income minority kids. And yet you have a public school system controlled by teachers unions and they block those reforms. They want failing schools to stay open because those schools are still providing good jobs for the adults. That's why those schools stay open. But I'm more concerned about them failing the kids, and I
think those schools should close. So yes, the school choice that we really need is at the K through twelve level, and if we got it, it would obviate the need for affirmative action and higher education.
Amen, Jason Riley, A distinct pleasure to have you on my program. Always looking forward to your columns on the Wall Street Journal and of course the affirmative action myth why blocks don't need racial preference to succeed. Your book is on my blog page and my listeners can easily get a copy of it. Keep up the great work, sir. It was again a pleasure having you on my program this morning.
Thank you very much.