Joining the fifty five Caresee Morning Show. Frank Abrams a criminal defense attorney in North Carolina as well as Florida's practiced in federal state criminal law for thirty eight plus years. He's been on public radio and Core TV, and he is an author. And today we're welcoming to the fifty five Carsy Morning Show to talk about his book, The Cock Fight. And I observe Frank, and it's a pleasure to have you on the program. It's been long stated the law holds it as better the ten guilty persons
escape than one innocent sufferer. I'm a firm believer in that, and there was a time in my life, Frank, that I believed in the death penalty. But as I've gotten, coming older and wiser and having practice litigation for sixteen years, I am painfully aware of the fact that quite often, well maybe not often, but sometimes innocent people are convicted. And if the state has the ability to take your life from you, that's a scary proposition. Welcome Frank, Sorry for being long winded.
Oh no, it's an honor and a pleasure. And you are one hundred percent on point Ryan. So can I tell you a little bit of about how this book came about.
Absolutely, Plus explain the title for my listeners so they understand the relationship.
Okay, the title of the book is The cock Fight. So one day I'm sitting at federal court. This is a few years back, and it comes to my attention and the attention that's some other attorneys that there's a Kentucky crime lab that has been mishandling DNA. So, Brian, I thought to myself, what could go wrong there? So that's when I started. Yeah, that's when I started writing the book. It gets even better, but I started writing
the book. The main character of my book is a teacher of the year who's falsely accused of a relationship with a student, loses everything he has and is living under a bridge with homeless people. Now why is it called the cock Fight? The answer is because every third Friday of the month under this bridge they have cock fights. Why because the basis of the book is they treat animals the same way, fighting roosters the same way they
treat people. They make them mean and angry towards each other, and then they make money in the whole unholy process.
I'm glad you pointed out the money thing, because I had that line in the notes circled for this reason because as you know from my comments introducing you having practice litigation and eight years in Chicago and eight years in house with a healthcare company, I know how expensive retaining a lawyer is. I mean outrageous amounts of money.
You're talking several hundred at minimum dollars an hour. And if you get falsely accused of a crime or accused of a crime, generally speaking, you have to get a defense attorney unless you rely on the public defender. And I will welcome your observations about the competency of the public Defender's office, but they tend to be overwhelmed with a number of cases they had, so to get competent counsel,
it's coming out of your pocket. And for those the Moneys that don't have a lot of money, it's an impossible chore.
Abbsosolutely. Public defender's offices across the country are utterly overwhelmed. They don't have the time, they don't have the resources. But this this even gets better because yesterday in the news came out a story that a crime lab analyst altered DNA evidence in hundreds of cases in Colorado yesterday's news. It's like they knew, Brian, that I was going to be interviewed by you today. It's like they knew why.
And no, the timing is excellent, Franks, But why would they do that?
Well, here's the thing I wrote. I wrote my book of the story of this teacher's fight to clear his name and all that he has to go through. And in it, I have a hearing and a trial, and there's eight potential eight reasons, eight things more than eight actually that can go wrong, and a lot of it has to do with time elements. These lab analysts are told, we want these results, we want them now. There's hundreds
and hundreds of cases they'll fudge results. There's evidence in that particular case she was indicted for over a hundred plus cases that she dealt with. You know, I can't say why people do things, but I know this that it happens, and when the system, when someone's life and someone's freedom is at stake, there has to be more than just oh, well, we have this test and we're gonna absolutely rely on the results of this test.
That's a great point, Frank. I think there's a sort of perhaps it's a you know, presumably a government employee or some lab They don't have any relationship to defend it. Maybe there's a presumption of guilt because they've been charged, so they have a lack of care and concern that they should sort of put themselves in the position of the person who's a defendant and do the job correctly and be able to testify on the stand that everything every eye was dotted and t was crossed because lives
are at stake here. But it's like taxpayer dollars. You know, the government doesn't care where the dollars come from. They don't have any incentive to be you know, mindful of where the money's going because they have this open spigot, and that creates well, lack of care and concern. Same kind of parallel.
Boy, boy, Brian, have you hit it and let me tell you that. Let me say this you want to talk about, you know, they talk about weaponizing the Justice Department against you know people. If you want to see the weaponization of the justice pot, you ought to see how it's been weaponized against regular people and people who just can't afford to pay for expensive attorneys, and people who just don't have the resources, and now, of course we're in days of budgetary restraint, as we always have.
So you know, good luck getting the court to approve money and say things like, well, you know, we're going to go ahead and do another test, even though you've already had a test and your results have been tested. In my book, the individual asks for another test, but it's rejected. It's rejected, and in federal courts they have something across the country called rocket dockets, and so it's like this, well, guess what, we don't have time to do another test. There's not going to be the money
given to do another test. And guess what, you don't be in trial on Monday. So you see, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well I.
Didn't practice I didn't practice criminal law. And I understand where you're coming from though, because you know, when you're preparing for a trial, you have a lot of work on your plate, and when and you're a criminal defendant, a criminal defense attorney, you know, again, your client's life is in your hands. I dealt with money matters, and of course that really is significant to your client, but lives aren't at stake, And so I feel for you, Frank,
I really do. In the book, it's the cock Fight. It's on my blog page fifty five Carosea dot com. I'm a guest today, Frank Abrams. I appreciate your passion on this subject. It's something near and dear to my heart. Frank, it's been great having you on the program. I appreciate you sharing your time and with our listeners and documenting this.
And it is a work of fiction, but Frank will tell you all day long, this is all based on reality and real quick Frank, in terms of being a defense attorney, if I wanted a separate DNA test because I had suspicions about the one that was presented by the prosecuting attorney, how much would it cost me as an a separate line item on the legal bill.
Well, first of all, typically they take it takes quite a long time to do, but it would be in the many thousands of dollars, at least three or four thousand dollars, and you're going to have to go ahead, basically and also retain an expert regarding that all to show that the first test had flaws. So take a guess what that's.
Gone at eight hundred plus dollars an hour?
Yeah, yeah, eight hundred plus. You know what an honored has been to talk to you. It has just been such an honor to be interviewed. And this book I wrote came from my heart.
I know it did.
And people seem to like this because this is a book that tells it like it is well.
And again you're outlining in this work of fiction real parallels to real life and again supporting my argument that there should be no death penalty from the state. Frank, keep up the great work. Thanks for joining me on the Morning show, and I'll recommend my listeners go to fifty five Carracy dot com and get a copy of your book, The Cockfight