¶ Running, Injuries, and Mental Health
Now , I mean , I did talk about this with someone who was a physiologist , so he does look so analyzes running technique and whatever .
But he did bring up an essential point that you know those people who do run regularly and who are , you know , very you know , maybe in that 20% of you know they're doing a lot of miles and whatever , but then they will get injured .
They will we never to believe you know if they will get injured , but this could as you said , affect their mental health or how you know because they're not doing the thing they love doing ?
Yes , yeah .
What do you or you know ? Is there an approach to help deal with injuries and those people who are suffering from ?
injuries . Yeah , I mean , I'll give you one thing I will say is that , firstly , in terms of like what I'm kind of promoting about running , you don't need to do huge miles .
You know , I mean , when you do miles there are some different types of benefits anecdotally , and some scientific as well , like in terms of getting to that run as high , really clearing your mind , of being in the moment . But really , I mean , most of the runs I do are like 30 minutes , honestly , like 30 , 40 minutes , and it gives me everything I need .
So you don't need to get to a point where you're running excessively to get a lot of the mental health benefits of running . And another thing I'll say is that even for me , over the last couple of years , to be honest , I've had a bit of an injury , a repetitive strain injury on my knee , so it's kind of stopping me , sadly , from getting beyond five miles .
And I've had some physio from it and it kind of helped a little bit and it's kind of coming back again now . But I've kind of got this sweet spot of five miles I can run in and in a way I'm kind of like well , it's kind of working for me and I'm getting what I need .
I'd love to be able to take like long miles , longer distances , but it doesn't affect me too much . So that's where I am in terms of injury stuff . But in terms of like , if you're really injured , I mean , even just walking is great . You know it's like you still get so many of the same benefits . But I feel running it just speeds it up .
You know you're getting to that state , mental state a lot quicker . And high intensity exercise like running has scientifically been shown to do a lot of these amazing things to the brain , like the neurogenesis and stuff like that that you talked about in the other podcast . So running is unique in that sense .
But a lot of the mental health benefits you can also draw in other ways through walking and even just meditation . You know it works for a lot of people .
Good point Good point .
You did mediation , so there's lots of other things that you can do if you're injured before you get back into running again .
Yeah , yeah . Or even , you know , maybe the injury may highlight your body saying that maybe you're not doing either enough strength work or oh , God , yeah definitely . You know , or using you know , other tools like you know other exercise like Pilates for core work or that kind of thing , so it is a way of your body saying excuse me , yeah , yeah .
Yeah .
Or you know , even doing , you know you're , either you're overtraining , you know , because you know you can be tired at work and that kind of you know feeling .
Yeah , I think it's so true , like I think we just need to tune in , you know , tune into our bodies , and I think that's what my book is is sort of geared towards doing . And I will just say yes , like listen to your body . If you are injured , what's it saying ? Like , why are you getting there ?
Like listen to it , not just oh God , I've got to get over it , what exercise we're going to do to get back again , but just really tune into your lifestyle , what's going on , and yeah , and you can make some good changes .
Yeah , or I do recommend dancing .
Dancing yes .
So yeah , my wife and I go dancing once a week . And that's very good for you know again having to use your mind and having to move .
Yeah , yeah , there's a lot to be said for that you know so because , yeah , people are moving your body , you know it's , it's quite . Yes , I think movement is so key and that's another sort of I won't go off the tangent too long , but like there is a growing movement which is talking about movement as part of meditation .
You know , because I know for a long time it's all like been about seated meditation , but now there's a growing trend that's saying you need to move . You know and how important movement is in meditation . So and the running falls into some of that dialogue too- so yeah , especially these days , I mean .
I mean , I think a lot of us are like I'm just talking about like this and like looking at our phones and that kind of thing , and then it's really we're not good for that ?
Yeah , we're not good for that , yeah exactly .
I think one thing I again we don't . I could talk to you about .
Talk to you about loads of different things , but no , there is there's one thing I really my dad's in a care home quite near here and we , every Saturday , we go for a walk and a thing I love we go through Bushey Park .
I don't know if you know Bushey Park , but we walk through there and then , even now , there's a Tai Chi class taking place , which is outside and it's like I don't know , it's about five degrees today or something like that . And I think they just , they just look so at peace with you know , everything around them .
And .
I just think they look fantastic and it's great to see you know it's really great to see sort of thing Totally , totally , and they're getting so much . You know , you know , I know we're talking about running , but that the benefits , you know , the wellbeing it's , so you know they must be getting so much from doing that .
So yeah , yeah , completely yeah . I mean , I was looking at some science recently about how , like animals , how they , how they deal with trauma , which is they physically shake it off . Yeah , so , like dogs and other animals , when they , when they're attacked or face some sort of trauma , they , they should physically shake and they shake it off .
And we , as humans , we don't do that . We are very like , we hide away , you know , and we keep it in our bodies and we store it and the impact that has ramifications on , you know , our minds and bodies , you know , and so we end up , end up sort of storing that trauma within us so it can show up as somatic symptoms and psychologically obviously .
So , yes , it's really interesting . So I think that's why it's really important to move , you know , in a way , yeah , yeah , whether it's running , dance , just just start moving yoga , you know , do you ? Do I ?
mean I know , you said , I mean you've done the marathon , and then you know , you're sort of doing 30 minutes running . But do you do anything specific in terms of running ? I mean , do you do any sort of temper running or interval running and do you find any of those different types of types of training ? Do they do they enhance the way you feel ?
Yeah , if I'm totally completely up front with you , I am going to say no . Because I mean , I don't . I don't do much speed stuff , I'm really slow , I'm a really slow runner if I'm on this with you , but I love it .
And recently I've been doing a bit more of a walk runs just because of my knee , but really what I do because I noticed that I need to build up my strength . So I do go to the gym to do some strength work , squats and all of that and I do it .
I find it boring if I'm totally honest with you , but I do it so I can run , I genuinely do it so I can run , and so I don't get injured . And I do do yoga and I love yoga , absolutely love it , especially being here in Bali . It's a big yoga effort .
Oh yeah , retreat , yes , yes , yeah .
Retreat , yeah , yeah , yeah , people's studios , amazing teachers , but I don't get the same psychological benefit . But it has helped with running in terms of just stretching , and certain yoga poses are really good with stretching out my legs and stuff , so that's helped .
But in terms of different types of running and mental health , I wouldn't say there is anything specific .
to be honest , the only thing I find that is that okay if I go for a longer run , I mean these days it's five okay or five more okay , but I find that if I do a like a short speed session , it's more .
I just feel it's such an intense session that I feel I did because just as much out of it as I do then going for a longer run sort of thing , and I just feel that that's has a different way of making me feel . So I feel like , oh yeah , great , I mean , it's only 3K or something like that .
It could be just 30 minutes fast and slow , that kind of thing , and then , sorry , 30 seconds fast and slow , and then yeah , and then .
But the psychological difference with the longer . Shorter , slower run , so the longer run .
I think there's well there's two things . Is that in our treadmill , on the longer run , you really have to be in that strong mindset that you have to , so you're gonna get , whereas when you're outside you know you're taking in outside and you're , it doesn't seem to , as long as I've got the aerobic capacity and it's fine .
Then I do a route and I find find on the longer run there's no , isn't a problem , whereas I think for the treadmill is quite good for like a speed session where you can control the various that you know , the incline and the speed and that kind of thing , but you do find that that's , you know , you have a really good intense session , sort of thing , whereas
if you're on an outside , then you might meet in , you know , traffic lights or something like that you're in the middle of your fast session and there's the like oh no , I can't , you know , sort of thing .
But yeah .
But , and also , you can't control the speed . Am I going fast enough or not , you know , and that kind of thing . Yes , yeah , that's very true . Yeah , that's true .
Any advice you would give to people who are , to new runners , who find that maybe before it wasn't for them and then maybe it's , you know , it wasn't for them because for whatever reason whatever , but maybe because you know they are come to the point of time of their lives that maybe they aren't feeling , they are feeling stressful for one reason or another .
I mean , how will they get out the door ?
I think the main advice to new runners I'd say is trying to find a way to get consistent with it , you know , and keeping consistent with it , because Often it's so easy to sort of give up before you start to see any of these .
So you're not going to see these psychological benefits straight away , especially if you're a mutual running and you're resisting it and Because you're all you're going to be thinking about is oh my god , I'm out of breath . Oh my god , my legs are all of this stuff , you know .
So really the key thing is trying to get consistent with it , regular with it , show up and get your body used to those feelings , you know of a being out of breath and changing how you see those Experiences of when you're running out of breath you think , oh my god , I'm gonna die because I'm , I can't breathe , you know , and then thinking actually , no , I've ,
this is the first time I've done this , or second time , of course I'm gonna feel like out of breath . My body's just getting used to it . It's pumping lots of oxygen around . So starting to change the way you perceive some of these bodily sensations at the beginning is important .
So might that might take a bit of time , but really it's about just running consistently for a few weeks . So to train your body to get over some of these initial barriers is gonna be key and then you can start building it as part of a habit .
¶ Managing Expectations and Utilizing Resources
And the other thing I say is managing expectations .
So Even me you know I've been running for a long time , and not just me like lots of other runners I speak to everyone says Even trial , you know runners , like ultramarathon runners , the first mile or two is always hard and sometimes it can be horrific , you know , like my legs are really tired , really heavy , or I'm really out of breath today , and that can
be for a number of different reasons , you know . So it's being mindful that actually that first mile is high for everybody , you know . And so it's managing those expectations of what you think that a runner is and what those first miles are gonna look like .
And once you do Reset your expectations about those things , then it becomes more comfortable and you become more comfortable with the , the discomfort , and then you start learning amazing things .
Do these worth doing a like a diary thing , or that's a very good idea , and it's kind of links in with some of the exercises I do actually , which is recording , kind of like how you're feeling , what you're thinking beforehand , but yeah , even a diary of maybe that's an excellent idea , brian .
So just saying in ink just writing down like , okay , maybe setting us up a goal , and being like , okay , I'm gonna run , I don't know , you know , even if it's 10 minutes , or doing like a couch to 5k type thing , so running for a minute on and off For 20 minutes or whatever and then saying , okay , I'm gonna do it for three weeks and then every day ,
whenever you do do it , just write down how many minutes you did run for and then actually you will see , more often than not You'll see some sort of improvement , you know , either in how you're feeling or how much you were able to do .
You know it's very unlikely that you won't see over time , some , some , some improvement , whether in you , physically or mentally .
I mean I don't know if you know , but I mean , do you do people who are in treatment for you know depression or Whatever ? I mean , do they have to keep a kind of like a ? Log of or a diary about how they're feeding on a day-to-day basis , or something like that .
It's a very usual common technique actually for who suffer from a depression or anxiety , where maybe a therapist might ask them to , like , keep a diary of what their day looks like , for example . They can start monitoring like what , what is it like when they start looking for patterns in terms of triggers or things that they have ?
For example , I remember when I was working as a clinical assistant psychologist and I'm helping people to try and identify periods of times they might relapse again . So so try and prevent relapse and we'll look at them , keeping a diary , almost , and seeing what are the things that are happening for you and how much are you sleeping , how much are you eating .
So looking at habits and things like that . So recording those types of things are really helpful in terms of just seeing how your overall days mood is , what's triggering you , what's affecting you , what's getting you to a state of maybe fear or anxiety , you know so it is a thing that's used quite commonly in those types of settings .
Yeah , I just wanted to just sort of tap into back into , you know , before we finish our brilliant discussion . And how do we , how do individuals recognize that they do have a mental health issue ?
You know so , is it just that I'm I'm not feeling , you know , for one reason I'm not feeling comfortable with where I work , or I'm just feeling you know , I'm a bit sad about something but do I ? Say to myself well , you know , do I have , you know ?
is this such a fine line . In a way , really , it's such a fine line Because we all struggle , don't we ?
We all struggle with 40s and I might not be clinically depressed in terms of , because obviously depression has a clinical diagnosis in terms of how long and you know how persistent it is , so and they've got criteria , but then obviously I've had loads of days where I felt so down I don't want to get out of bed , or my energy levels are so low because of my
mood .
You know .
So it's a fine line in terms of if I'm you know , am I mentally ill , you know , but yeah , I guess I don't .
But I guess when , if you are really struggling from a mental health problem , that's when it's really starting to have an impact on wider things and living the life the way you want to , and if it's like your depression is having an impact on you keeping your job or relationships , then it's becoming a real big problem , you know .
So I'd say that's a marker if things are not great , you know .
So , if it's kind of you know , like I said , it's affecting other areas of your life and probably over a prolonged period of time . And then , as we've obviously talked about , quite a bit that it's . You know , maybe choose some form of physical activity or even running to help to reset yourself .
So yeah , reset exactly , and just hope that as a coping mechanism within yourself . You know that you can lean on at any time , which is great . It's free , accessible to pretty much most people and any time of day and you can lean on it , you know .
So it's a great first port of call and I truly believe there's a space for medication , space for psychological therapy . But as a society , if I'm honest , I feel like in the Western world we lean too much on external things like that .
You know , it's like oh , I'm not feeling great , okay , I need to get , I need to go get drunk or forget about my situation , or I need to go and get some medication and deal with it . It's not helpful , you know , and that's a problem . Yeah , you're just creating .
You're just highlighting and just making the problem , worse sort of thing . Yeah , exactly . So you're just kind of spiraling , yeah , exactly .
Exactly , you're not dealing with it , and for me it's all about how do we utilize the resources we already have , and I feel that as humans , we are equipped with so much that we're only just stepping into and realizing now through science that we have a lot of resources within us to heal ourselves emotionally , you know , physically , and we should tap into that
first , and that's , I guess , what I'm trying to promote with the book , is lean on that first and then obviously go for other things as and when you need . But yeah , try it .
Well , we've done just over an hour and it's been brilliant to talk to you . Obviously , apart from your book I don't know when are you looking to publish or when's it coming out- yeah , so at the moment I'm sort of pitching to publishers in the UK and US .
I've got pretty much first draft of my manuscript , just refining it . It feels never-ending . So yeah , I don't have a date yet . So yeah , I will keep in touch , brian , and I'll let you know .
And you have an Instagram , don't you ?
I do . Yes , I have an Instagram running writing mindfully . So , yeah , do follow me . I'm kind of sharing my running writing journey on that and a bit of life here in Bali , which is amazing and it's an amazing place to run . It's very different from London .
Very jealous . I mean just out of interest . I mean , do you find you know there's , you know regular routes and out there or do you run sort of different routes or anything like that ?
I run a regular route only because it's the safest one I've found . There are no pavements here , like pavements are often broker and patchy and there's scooters everywhere and it's really not for walking or running , which is a shame . So I there's some rice fields at the back of my house , so I normally run along those rice fields .
So there are still scooters on the rice fields , but very few in the morning . So I tend to go really early , before it gets too hot , like around six am sunrise and yeah . So I just run across the rice fields , but even then you're still jumping over potholes or dead snakes .
All right , my gosh All right .
But it's wonderful that I love seeing us . So we have two volcanoes on the island . The biggest one is Mount Agung and I get to see it on like clear days and it's just the most spectacular view . So whenever I go on my rice field run , I'm just always hoping I get to see it because it is so amazing . So that's yeah , I'm really enjoying that .
Well , it's a shame we couldn't see it on the Zoom call , but there you go . Anyway , I just wanted to say thank you . Thank you very much for coming onto the podcast and then and thank you , Brian yeah .
And really looking forward to hopefully you'll get you know a publishing deal and it will come out in the next few months or so , and I'm looking forward to reading the book .
Thank you so much . Thank you so much . It's an absolute pleasure talking to you . I've loved every second of it .
It's just always a draw to talk about this stuff , as I said , I mean , we could have , we could have talked for hours about it Honestly .
Yeah , I feel like you can put that .
Yeah , all right , okay Well thank you so much .
Okay , have a good evening . Cheers , have a good day .