Revolutionizing Running with Denny Krahe: Smarter, Pain-Free Training Strategies

Today we're diving into part two of my interview with none other than Denny Cray . Yep , you don't want to miss this one . In this episode , we're digging into how mastering the fundamentals of easy running guided by heart rate training can transform your fitness journey .

We'll chat about how it sets the perfect stage for more advanced techniques like intervals and tempo runs . Plus , we're going to dispel some common myths about running form and cadence , so you can stop chasing cookie cutter advice and start focusing on what works best for you . Let's be real we're busting that old pain , old , no pain , no gain myth wide open .

Instead , we're focusing on smart training , strategic recovery and the power of patience . Whether you're a weekend warrior or a marathon veteran , this episode is packed with tips that'll have you running stronger , longer and with more joy . So lace up , hit play and let's get into it , and I really hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did so ?

Do you in terms of , obviously you may have approached coach to different levels , let's say , if someone was a beginner , when do you feel that you can sort of type of introduce a much more technical aspects of your coaching sort of thing , things like doing intervals or tempo , that kind of thing different you know doing ?

You know you might have three people that have all been running for for three months , but the level of development in those three months is so dramatically different in terms of what their history was beforehand . Were they were they involved in other sports or were they active or doing other things , or were they fairly sedentary ?

And they're just their first three months in the couch to 5k , which is great , but like they're just at different at different points along the timeline . But but I think , I think without , without trying to totally dodge the question , um it's .

It's hard to give a firm answer to that , but it's , it's kind of one of those that that each situation kind of kind of dictates yeah , um , so so it's , you know , it's , it's , it's it's kind of reading I don't want to say reading between the leaves , but it's like for each person , like how are they feeling ?

Like kind of getting the vibe of like how do they feel after the run ? If they go out and run for whatever for 30 minutes and they feel absolutely exhausted , like struggling to get through 30 minutes , then we probably don't want to start getting . We still need to build more foundation .

We still need to work on the base , fitness , a little bit more which probably involves more of the kind of easy running , the low intensity running zone , to whatever kind of buzzword that you want to put on it , and quite frankly , that's my bread and butter anyway . I'm very much , personally , a heart rate training guy .

I don't force anybody that I coached to follow heart rate training principles , but it ends up being a lot of zone to a lot of easy running , um , but I definitely lean in towards most of the miles should be easy or low intensity because that builds the foundation and then and then when we do mix in some workouts , we're able to really like , have that firm

base to push off of and really propel forward . But at the same time , like I said earlier , I want my athletes to have fun and I want them to enjoy the process and and for .

For a lot of folks not everybody , but for a lot of folks , like you know , throwing down a good hard workout and getting all the endorphins and sweating and panting and being out of breath , like like there I mean I won't , I won't deny like that feels more like there's something more to that than just going out and running an easy effort for for 45 minutes

or an hour .

Like like I still feel good when I'm done with running easy for an hour , but like when I go out and hammer some repeats or hammer a good hard workout , like there is a little bit more of a sense of accomplishment , of like , yeah , all right , we got after it today and I'm going to feel it tomorrow , but but that's a good thing , so it's it's .

It's kind of it's the art , part of the art and science . Like it's the art of when to start putting in the workouts and what to and what level of workouts to do . But there needs , I believe there needs to be a decent level of base there to get the most out of the workout .

So I mean , you could do the workout any old , any old time , but you're not going to get as much out of it and maybe the injury risk would be higher if there's less of a base there . So it's , I don't have a . Sorry , that was a long way to get to .

But then the thing I have enjoyed recently is , I mean , I'm a member of a gym and then doing kind of intervals on the gym . You know it could be it's only 3K or something like that , it could be 3 to 4K or something like that .

But if you do , let's say , intervals , you know you feel like you've , because treadmill running is so inherently hard just to run consistently but to do something where you're having to work with speed , I think it sort of comes into its own there . So that really helps .

But me personally , I mean you can , I can tell myself I'm going to go run for 30 minutes on a treadmill . I'm lucky if I get three minutes on the treadmill .

I mean , it gets cold , we get a little bit of ice here and there , but nothing , nothing that I don't feel comfortable running outside in pretty much year round .

So , um , I'm able to do that and our neighborhood is pretty quiet in terms of traffic , so like I could run in the streets , you know , at least in the early mornings , before people get up and get going to work and stuff . So I don't , I don't have a , I'm not in a situation where the treadmill is a necessary evil for me .

But , yeah , if , if , if and when I have to run on a treadmill , like there is a pretty good chance , I'm going to , I'm going to do something to mix it up a little bit more .

But even that that can , that can be a little bit , but it still doesn't .

So I know I was listening to one of your podcasts the other day , sort of one of your short ones , the one sort of about you know some people can get a bit kind of head up or kind of a bit confused about sort of technique and that kind of thing you know about you know , running on your toes you were high-sighting an example of someone who's running on

their toes or running in their midfoot , that kind of thing . So , as opposed to running on your heels where you know you could get , you know , the forces going up through your hips and that kind of thing .

So I just wanted you to sort of explain to the audience as to is , you know , because I know there's this kind of so-called , I know , strides per minute , 180 strides per minute and some people you know it's kind of a set as a , a guideline . You know that you should be running as that , what , how , what do you tell your um , your runners or about that ?

There's examples beyond just running , but a lot of examples where we take something and then maybe over , like , like , oversimplify it so it kind of loses the meaning .

Yeah , and in this example , you know , the the 180 steps per per minute was was kind of came about without getting too deep into the weeds , by people studying elite and sub elite owners and how fast they were , what their cadence was , how many steps per minute they're taking during a race effort , like during a race .

So this is , you know , and it's the average .

So anyway , but as soon as you take an average , well , now , it's not a perfect thing for anybody because it's the average of a bunch of people , but the average athletes , exactly , exactly , they're elite athletes running whatever at five minute pace or six minute mile pace or some some faster pace than what I'm running for , a marathon certainly , and so so the

average is 180 steps per minute at race pace . Okay , Well , like in in , quite frankly , 180 steps per minute . It doesn't necessarily have to coordinate specifically with with overall pace . Like you can take 180 steps per minute at 10 minute pace at nine minute pace , eight minute pace , whatever .

But but the important thing to remember is that's that's a race effort and it's an average , so you know just as soon as you take an average , if you , if you know how maths work . It's like I mean , some people were 182 , some people were 186, .

You know , probably I don't know what the exact numbers are but probably between 170 and 185 , something like that was where most people ended up . But then we've , you know , over the course of you know , dumbing it down for the masses and runners , world articles that were probably well-meaning , but it's like 180 , 180 , 180 , 180 .

And so , you know , people I've had . People were like man , my , my cadence is a little bit low . What do you think I should do to pick it up ? And I look at 176 and it's like you're good , 176 might as well be 180 .

But also like , how are you feeling if you're not feeling bad , if you're not having aches and pains and niggles and things like that ? And and again , we're talking about an easy , an easy four miler like , do we need to stress out about bringing your cadence up from 160 to 170 ? Like , probably not .

Like , I mean like it might help , but it's , it probably won't make much of a difference . And then like , well , let's throw down a harder run and see what your cadence is there . And then it's like oh , it's , it's 177 . Like , all right , perfect , we're good .

When we're trying to run faster , the cadence picks up because that's just naturally what's going to happen . So so , yeah , I think that that sometimes for well-meaning you know , it's well-meaning to say , hey , maybe a cadence around one , 80 is going to be your best situation , but we lose the details , we lose it . That's a race pace we lose it .

That's an average and it's not going to be an exact science for every single body type . Somebody that's got really long legs is probably going to have a lower cadence because their stride length is much longer and somebody who's got shorter legs is going to have probably a higher number because their stride length is shorter .

So there's biomechanical things to think about in terms of landing on your toes , heel strike and things like that . That was another one that kind of got maybe oversimplified in terms of don't heel strike , but it was like don't heel strike with your foot out in front of you .

So if you do that , then you're landing with your legs straight and that's where you , like you said earlier , all the force comes up your leg and your knee and your hips and you're asking for all these problems .

But if you're landing with your foot most you know for the it really doesn't matter if your heel strikes first , if your forefoot strikes first , if your midfoot strikes first , because your knee is naturally going to be bent in that position .

You're going to be in a position to absorb the shock , to create elastic tension through your Achilles tendon , through your calf muscle . That's going to spring you forward .

But again , we dumbed it down to say don't heel strike , but what we really meant was try to land with your foot underneath your body and sit out in front of you , and so it's kind of like the message got lost , the details got lost in the headline , and then it was just like oh my God , don't heel strike .

Well , heel strike , don't heel strike out in front , but just don't land with your foot out in front and it doesn't matter . Land with your foot underneath you and you're good to go yeah , I know that can be a little bit technical , but that's that's you know trying not to get make this a three-hour episode of the podcast .

So yeah uh , it's , it's very much like you said . You know , if you are , you know , running at quite elite levels , then maybe it's something to look at . But it's certainly , you know , for , you know , the colonel garden runner , maybe not , maybe , maybe not .

, you want to run longer distances , like whatever it is . There's so many ways to improve it , and maybe cadence . Maybe increasing your cadence or locking on your cadence might be one of them , but it's probably not .

You're probably not gonna get . The biggest bang for your buck is maybe you would from running more , more easy volume or taking care of body more with foam rolling and stretching , yoga , things like that , that are going to reduce some of the niggles and help you recovery , so you're going to be able to be more consistent with you .

There's probably lower hanging fruit that has more of an impact on your performance . But yeah , sure , once you're up at the elite levels , once you're running for marathon wins and world major wins and life-changing amounts of money , well then , sure , then maybe every little detail is worth analyzing and seeing what it does for you .

But for you , me and probably everybody listening , there's probably other factors that would have a bigger impact on our health and our fitness and our performance than if we're taking 170 steps per minute or 176 or 182 . Like and and again personal bias there . Take it for what it's worth , but that's just . That's just kind of how I feel that we're .

I know it's very difficult to to pinpoint that , but has there been being sort of like you know , you've taken all your , all your , the people you've coached , and you thought , well , there's one thing that will help improve their times or , you know , their enjoyment of running ?

But I think that the biggest factor has been embracing , running easy most of the time , and I don't know if this is as much of a thing over in the UK and Europe as it is here with some of our sport culture , especially starting with youth levels and whatnot , but there's a lot over here .

There's been multiple times where I've I've worked with folks and I'm like , yeah , like let's stop trying to to set PRs and PBs every day in training , like let's just , you know you might , you might , could race it you know , whatever , at eight minute pace for the marathon , eight minutes per mile pace , but like , let's try to slow those runs down to nine

minute pace , let's try to slow those runs down to nine , 30 to 10 minute pace . And it takes a little while to kind of adjust and get used to it .

But then , like you know and I'm not going to pretend like the numbers , I've heard this hundreds of times , but dozens of times where it's like my gosh , like I did my , my 12 miles on Saturday morning and like I felt good , like after I finished I was able to work in the garden , I was able to to go for a walk with the kids , I was able to do this ,

I was able to do that , and before I would I would run 10 miles or 12 miles and I would just be exhausted , like I couldn't , I couldn't hardly get up and function the rest of the day Cause I was so just spent physically , cause they were , they were trying to run too fast or or work too hard for every single run .

And and uh again , without getting too deep into the physiology weeds for most of us and especially for those running even even quote unquote shorter distances , like the 5k , like those are still , you know , anything longer really than like 800 meters . And you could make an argument that even 800 meters is is an aerobic event , like cause , you're just out there .

For the amount of time that you're out there you need to have a good level of aerobic fitness . But certainly you get off the track , you get into anything that's again 800 meters or longer , certainly road races , 5ks , 10ks , halves , fulls , whatever . Your aerobic fitness is

the key . And so many folks are like I want to run faster . But if you say , hey , how fast can you run a mile and just make up numbers here , but like , oh , I can run a mile in seven minutes .

And their goal pace is to run four hours for the marathon , which means that they need to run seven minutes or , I'm sorry , nine minute miles for 26 miles , well , they're fast enough , they can run a seven minute mile , they're fast enough to run a nine minute mile . They don't have the endurance to run nine minute miles for 26 miles .

So the way to build that isn't to run a bunch of seven minute miles , it's to slow down , it's to run 10 minutes , 11 minutes , 12 minute pace even , and just build up the endurance , the time on feet .

You get some physiological changes that we don't need to get into , but the way your physiology evolves so that all of a sudden , running nine minute pace , which is whatever , maybe 85% effort , 80% effort , when you could run a seven minute pace all out you're able to maintain that for four hours , to get to 26 miles , to break that four hour number , yeah and

so so again , all that that to say I'm long-winded as a podcaster . But to answer your question , I think in my experience getting people to embrace the idea of not every day is race day . I can run easy most of the time and and not get slower and not forget how to run fast . I can still run fast and sometimes even faster because I'm not always fatigued .

I'm actually rejuvenated after each one . Has really been a game changer for me .

You know , if you're getting into it , just running slow . And also I know one of the things that when I used to do heart rate training it was , you know , you'd kind of pick a heart rate you know which was kind of you know , either 80 percent or 65 percent or 70 percent of your maximum heart rate or whatever .

And I used I used to in those days I used to use polar . I mean there's polar still around but it used to go off , you know if it going up . And then I think there was that frustrating . Well , I can go faster , but then it was kind of you know it was getting you .

I know there's that heart rate drift anyway the longer you go , because of you're getting hot or depending on the conditions , but you I think at the end of the day or the end of the run you feel a hell of a lot much better for it , because you're focused on keeping your heart rate down and that , in turn , is getting you to run slower .

You know , people on Strava are going to think that I'm slower and it's just like nobody on Strava cares . They're giving you kudos because you ran . They're not giving you kudos because oh , you ran seven minute pace today instead of nine minute pace , like nobody . But but there's just that .

There's that little bit of ego , and you know I , especially if you've been running for a while you know , months , years some folks get into heart rate training that they've been running for for years and years and years and there it is a hit to the ego when you , when you're like all , right , I want to keep my heart rate at whatever at 145 beats per minute

and you set out and you're starting off and it's good , and all of a sudden , two miles in , you're at 155 and you feel like you're running pretty easy , but you know the heart rate's high . So , like you have to , you have to be willing to go .

All right , I'm going to run a minute slower , two minutes per mile , slow , whatever it is Like , I'm going to be willing to back it down and keep my heart rate where I want it to be and trust in the process , which you know I mean it's that's . That's a tough thing to do Sometimes . You're trying to build .

Now it's months and it's years and it's decades long process to to , you know , to to just to continue to build that fitness over time and , and I don't know , I mean , like I said , I , I , I , I'm all in on it , I believe it I've seen gives you a better chance for longevity , in which , for at least for a lot of folks , like at least for myself and

maybe some other folks as well , you know , it gives you a longer the longer . The longevity in the sport gives you a chance to achieve a lot more goals than just one goal in the next two months , and then I'm going to call it a career , which hopefully is not what too many people are . You know , hopefully not .

Not many people are willing to make that trade off of like I want to , you know , get this three-hour marathon . And then I'm done like it's like I want to get three-hour marathon , but then I want to keep going .

But I think that and again , hopefully for better there's a lot more information out there . There's some less good information .

There's a lot of really good information out there in terms of exercises and the value of strength training , the value of of you know yoga and soft tissue work and running , like there's a lot of other good information that helps on the injury front , um , but I , I , you know , I guess , I guess I would say that when , when I do have an athlete that's that's

got some type of niggle or some type of something , that's not quite right , I do think it's probably helpful to have that sports medicine background to kind of dig into things and go well , it could be this , this and this , and , like you know , without just assuming that every foot pain is plantar fasciitis , a lot of times foot pain might be plantar fasciitis ,

but there's a dozen other things that it could be as well , you know . And same thing , if it's , if it's a knee pain , well , your , your , your calf hurts , so it's Achilles tendonitis , like maybe it is , but maybe it's a strain , maybe it's a this , maybe it's a that .

And if and if we don't see some progress in the next two , three , five days by by focusing that , that's what it might be , then it might be a good idea to go see a physio , go see a you know sometime , go see a doctor , go see a therapist , go see somebody who can get hands on and can test you in person , because that's always going to be better than

what I can do virtually . I mean getting the feeling , and testing strength and testing range of motion is always , almost always , going to give a more like likely scenario than what I can try to come up with when we're going back and forth right , good , well , we're nearly coming up to the end of the end of the podcast .

Certainly it's evolved over the years . It used to be very much interview focused and now I do like an interview every month , or one to have a month and a lot more kind of just shorter coaching type of of singular episodes .

And so I don't know , I mean , I don't , there's not usually a big plan of like I'm going to evolve it here , I'm going to evolve it there . Like you know , I may have a few more interviews here and there , but at least plan to keep keep going once a week with , with a coaching now , and so I'm just going to kind of plan to keep it there .

But you know , as as the business evolves , as as as podcasting evolves , could it be , could there be more ? Sure , could there be less , I suppose ? But I enjoyed enough that I don't plan on stopping anytime soon .

Probably eisenman is probably my number one , but I don't know , I I like athletes of all of all flavors in all sports , so it's , it's . It's hard to nail down just one or two , okay got a couple more just come to mind .

So if , if I'm gonna go to music route , I'll either go to like dave matthews band is like one of my probably my favorite favorite band , kind of kind of jam rock kind of like yeah , uh I don't know .

I mean kind of acoustic , but there's a little bit of rocky stuff to it yeah or just just go to like a 90s , 1990s rock , so like grunge , nirvana , okay , um , but I mean kind of anything from the 90s , like like any , any , that's . I mean I grew up in the night like I was .

But but one of my favorites is is the Jocko podcast . I mean and Jocko Blink is is a ex US Navy SEAL . I mean sometimes he talks to military officers from from . I mean not just military members , not just from the United States , but there's been UK on the show , canadian military , but it's a lot of lessons on life .

They're usually two , three hour long episodes and I usually dial one of those up when I start my my long run and it's just , you know , I get , like I said , there's there's enough business lessons in there , there's enough life lessons in there that , and I think a lot of times , even though he doesn't talk about them as running lessons , there's a lot of

running lessons in there about being consistent and showing up and being disciplined and just the value of hard work . That that's one of many that I would quickly recommend . But it's not everybody's cup of tea , because there is sometimes some military stuff that can .

They're not super graphic , but I mean , some of the stories of war are not pleasant stories , but there's usually one or two things that I take away from every episode that I'm like oh yeah , this was , this was . I'm thinking about something different because I listened to this episode today yeah , good , there's , um .

She did one on the Challenger which was interesting you know about the O-rings and she did . That's a really good one . And there's another really good one which is called Ghost Story , which is that's a really good story , really really good story . I'm always , always looking for new podcasts yeah , yeah , maybe I'll send you the , send you the links .

So yeah , that's good .

I just wanted to say you've been a fantastic guest and well , thanks to morelli for bringing us together and she was a brilliant guest as well , and I I'm , you know , I'm really pleased that you came on and I really , really do hope you enjoyed it .