¶ The Emotional Connection to Exercise
Welcome back to Brian's Rompod . I hope you're having a great week . Ever wondered why sticking to an exercise routine can be so challenging or why some people seem to enjoy the workouts more than others ? The answer lies in our emotional connection to exercise .
Katie DeKennedy , a PhD holder from the University of Surrey , has spent years exploring this fascinating topic . I split the podcast into two and in the first part she explains what was her experience of sport at school and how she came about researching for her PhD . I really hope you enjoy our chat .
So you're thinking about running but not sure how to take the first step . My name is Brian Patterson and I'm here to help . Welcome to Brian's Rompod . I'm your host , brian , and today is a special day as we have an incredible guest joining us .
You might remember , in my previous episode we delved into the world of running with a fantastic Tamsin Birdland now , who had received coaching from the well-known Lee Andrew Wren . Tamsin had a great suggestion for our show the brilliant Katie Kennedy .
Katie holds a PhD in psychology from the prestigious University of Surrey , where her research centered on a fascinating topic how people experience emotions during exercise and , more importantly , how we can enhance those feelings to enhance our overall well-being .
Her doctoral journey took her on a quest to unravel the mysteries of whether our emotions during exercise influence our future commitment to physical activity , and she also tackled the enigma of the New Year's resolutions related to exercise , finding the both yes and no moments in that saga . But wait , there's more .
Katie even explored the world of beginner running podcast programs yikes , and a real treasure trove of insights . So you can see why I'm absolutely thrilled that Katie has graciously agreed to be our guest today . Without further ado , let's extend a warm welcome to the podcast to the brilliant Katie . Anyway , how's it going ?
Yes , take response yes .
Anyway , how are you today ?
I am very well , thank you . I didn't run today . I actually went for a walk along the canal with my older son , but we did run together yesterday and I'm very happy that he has taken up running about a year or two ago , yeah .
How did ? What were you like at running at school ? What was your not running , but with keeping fit , orton , really .
I actually grew up in Sydney and so we lived near the beach , so we'd go swimming in the sea for about six months a year . I played tennis with my dad a couple of times a week and I used a cycle around us for transport , but I didn't really like running at all .
The only exposure I had to at school was pretty much cross-country and , unlike the British experiences , usually involves mud and ice and crossing streams and brooks . Like at my secondary school , mine involved sand dunes .
Oh I see yeah , my school was next to the beach , so we had to run over these sand dunes in the middle of summer as part of our cross-country . So that's how to get people to hate running .
Yes , yeah , but were you involved in any sort of team sports or anything like that ?
I'm only tennis . That was about it . Yeah , I've never really been into team sports . I actually play cricket sometimes now , yeah , and tennis , but it's funny , I'm now teaching sports group dynamics and sports psychology .
I don't really know that much about , like football or oh right , oh , rugby or any of the things my students play a lot of , but I know how to apply psychology to things , so that's my area of expertise .
I suppose you can delve into the nuance of it , because I suppose it's because team sports obviously have very familiar elements .
I suppose yeah , team , there's a lot of social psychology in team sports . Definitely that's a unifying factor , and the bigger the team gets , obviously the more complex the dynamics get . And there's also lots of stuff around leadership as well , for example , coaches or lots of kind of different roles like a captain .
There's so many complex kind of dynamics going on with team sports so , yeah , it's really interesting stuff .
I know this is a little bit off topic , but I know there was the play recently came out I think a couple of months ago , concerning the England team and Gareth Southgate's approach to penalty taking and I thought that was used , a lot of psychology involved in it and probably that's supposed to be quite something quite a really interesting play about and how he
went into the backgrounds of each of the players , that kind of thing .
Wow , it's really interesting . Yeah , it's definitely a big area because fundamentally we're all social creatures and if you're in a team , then the social dynamics are really important . So , for example , one of my colleagues researchers Esports and oh yes , and they .
Again , it's a lot of team , a lot of teamwork and again , the social dynamics are really critical in how a team performs at Esports and there was so much crossover actually between what I was teaching in group dynamics and sport and what he was finding out and his research with group dynamics in Esports . There was so much crossover . It's very interesting .
Yeah , is that games where they play as a team or ?
Yeah .
Yeah , it's okay .
Yeah , I don't know much about Esports .
Yeah , I'm a little bit of a gamer . I play Formula One game , but then that's that's maybe something for another time . From school to going to university was where you still I know you're an exercise psychologist , but where you do , where sports still quite a big part of your life .
Sorry , there's a really noisy helicopter going over . Could you just All right yeah ?
One of the things I wanted to say is that transition from going from school over to to university was where you wanted to get involved in sport , or not really .
Oh God , no , I hate to support university Really . I've actually got four degrees . I've had several transitions to university . My first one , I did a chemistry degree and I showed no interest whatsoever in any kind of sport or exercise . I just walked to university a lot . That was about it .
And then , probably it was probably after I left university that I just started doing a bit of exercise now and again . And then I had kids and got probably a bit more exercise in my life , just because you want to be a good role model for your kids , and so on .
And then I did an open university degree and then I did a masters at Reading and that was when I got into running because I'd run a race . I'd run a half marathon when I was 30 , when my son was one , and someone signed me up for a half marathon .
I didn't train for it because I had a baby to look after and I didn't know what I was doing and I went out and ran and I did this race and it was miserable . It was awful . A half marathon is a very long way if you haven't trained . It is .
It is a very hard long way . It is .
And then I gave up running for 10 years because it was so horrible . And then I started my masters at Reading and I thought I need a form of exercise which will fit around a very busy commute to uni , dropping the kids off at their school and so on , and I was like I'm going to need some very time efficient exercise in my life .
So what was the masters in Was that ?
That was psychological research methods .
Okay , okay .
Yeah , so I decided to take up running and actually , reading has a lovely campus . I used to just do a little jog around the campus every so often and then I thought maybe I should . Oh no , that thought was I did another half marathon and hated it and then decided to take up running .
But then that was the main reason was because I thought I had to in order to fit something into my life , and running is the most flexible and accessible thing to do , isn't it so ?
Did you do ? Was it just kit trainers then out the door ? There's no science behind it . You didn't really look into what are the different forms of running , interval tempo , that kind of thing .
I mean , oh , there was no science whatsoever , it was just I took my running kit to uni . If I had a lunch break , I'd go for a run for half an hour . That was pretty much it . And then I decided actually that I wanted to running .
So then I started running with friends occasionally , which I still think is the number one best thing to do if you want to enjoy running .
And there's actually some psychology behind that , there's actually some research behind it , because if you're running , then you're going to be going slower and it's also going to distract you from things being a bit unpleasant if you're running with friends or with other people .
So it can be a really good idea to run with other people , especially if it's slower than you . That's even better .
I've never done that . I know when races if things do find it is difficult then you're running within a group or what I was talking to one of my colleagues at work and you target someone ahead of you and then that helps to help motivate you .
Absolutely . Also , you don't run with other people generally .
No , I think for me I do have a bit of a love-hate relationship with it , maybe like most people , sometimes I'm looking at it . It was like the other day I went running out . I usually when I go to the gym , I go running as a warm-up , but I don't run the program If it's nice , because I think what's the point .
And the other day I said to myself I'm going to enjoy this and I enjoyed the run and it was really quite relaxing , whereas other times the first 10 minutes are like hell and you just will yourself and I use the same route and then by the end of it , like you said in your blog , you have that kind of endorphins , russian , you feel .
Yeah , I felt really good about that . But , maybe I might enjoy more if I took time to go to a local running club or something like that . It might make me enjoy it a bit more for those times .
I think you should treat it as an experiment .
Yes , maybe I will do .
Report back . I think , make sure you're not running with people who are considerably faster than you , because that can be , very disheartening .
Yeah , because there is a local running shop and they do . I think they do people who are quite fast , and then there are people who aren't so fast or run as a group .
That's a good idea . It's a good idea . I'm quite surprised if you're able to continue running regularly without running with other people , because I think it's a real kind of key kind of way of staying engaged with running as a habit personally .
Yes , I think my philosophy , especially during lockdown , has been to have a plan and that helped me a lot . I don't know , when you did your research , whether that helped motivate people that they had to complete a particular plan .
So I did the wrong keeper plan , 10k plan , and it was 12 weeks where you can make it , and then there are various parameters you could change and you can create a plan according to those parameters . But I quite enjoyed that because it was kind of set me a goal .
You run at this place this distance and that kind of thing , and then it progressed during the .
There's a real sense of achievement if you have a plan and you manage to stick to it . Definitely so . I think that's part of the kind of attraction of Couch25k programs . There is a fixed time that you're supposed to run for and walk for , and you're told exactly what to do , and you don't need to make your own plan .
You're literally told what to do , especially if you're listening to a podcast that tells you when to run and when to walk , and then you go through each week . I think the issue then can be what you do after that . Once you've finished that program , how do you stay motivated to get at the door ?
The thing I found quite surprising listening to whether running podcasts or other people is that experienced runners will go back to the Couch25k as a way of . I haven't run for a while , for six months or three months .
I'll go back to that Absolutely . Or if they've been injured and off for a while and they want to start gently and not break themselves . I've realised that myself and actually quite a few of my participants as well Quite a few of my participants in the beginning running groups and also people who joined my other study on podcasts .
They had run in the past and sometimes they did use catch 5k or other programs as a way of getting them back into running . So , yeah , it's like a gentle on ramp in a way . I think yeah .
So , moving on , what made you decide to do this PhD on this particular as you were , this kind of psychology of running .
So I did my masters at Reading and then I decided I want to do something to do with exercise on my PhD . So I teams is trying to open some reason . I can't even place that . That's very annoying . It's like why , why zoom on your computer ? You should be on teams . Okay , got rid of that , yeah .
So I did my go away teams I am not here for , especially given it's trying to open my other account .
¶ Enjoyment's Impact on Exercise Participation
So I decided I want to do something to do with exercise and I contacted a university and said I wanted to , was interested in working with a supervisor my supervisor there , chris , I'm sure lovely man and we had a chat and I said I'm really love exercise . I want people to enjoy exercise as much as I do .
I'd really like to find out how we can , how we can , do that . And he was . I hate exercise . I had a heart attack and the only reason I exercise is my doctor told me I was going to die if I didn't . So I mentioned this to him .
So he gave me a paper to read about feelings doing exercise and went away and read it and was like , okay , how about it ? And actually most of the research at the time was on treadmills in the lab , very much laboratory based , and I was like that's great .
But I wonder if these kind of results apply in real life scenarios , perhaps outdoor running or outdoor walking . Is it the case that this is the same kind of you ? Will you get the same kind of effect that if you enjoy the exercise , you're more likely to continue in the future ? So I decided to do a study on beginner running groups .
I had a friend who ran a beginning running group so I thought , like I can go along , get some participants , I can find out how they're feeling during the run and then I can follow them up six months later and find out whether they're still exercising . So it sounded simple and principle . And then , about two years later , I finally finished collecting my data .
Because it takes a very long time to collect this kind of data . You have to go out , you have to find the group , you have to talk to people , you have to ask them to participate and then you have to find a had to find a group that was actually starting at a particular time so that I could go in the first week .
I actually went in the final week as well to re-interview them afterwards and then I followed them up afterwards too , so just collecting data for a very long time .
It was quite complicated as well , trying to record people when they were out running so they could give me a number in terms of how they felt , but also like why they felt that way , because I wanted some reasons why they felt that way as well , not just like number four on the scale . Yeah , that was interesting .
I actually lost one participant in the woods once . She went off the wrong direction . She followed some different runners .
So you were running with them .
I was running with them , yeah , so they usually met in kind of parks and near canals and rivers and that kind of thing , so it was very much outdoors . There were a lot of grasscutters , a lot of grasscutters interfered with my recordings , and a lot of heavy breathing , a lot of panting .
Okay , all right .
So , yeah , I'm trying to . And also , as they got better as well , the groups would get more and more spread out . So trying to find all the different participants , ask them how they were feeling , was entertaining .
Yeah , it was a great study and I did find out doing that study the kind of the main result was that , yes , if people felt better during running at the very start , then they were more likely to be still doing some exercise not necessarily running , but more exercise six months later . So that was like the take home message of that .
And then I had lots of qualitative data around what people talked about and how they talked about running and I've got loads and loads of interesting results about that .
So you said in the beginning how they felt about running . If they felt as a positive about running , then they're more likely to keep running six months later . Is that right ?
It was a bit more complex than that it was . So sometimes people hated it because they felt like they had to run fast . Or if they were with other people who were running , who were much fitter than them , for example , then they had to run fast and then they felt really bad and then they were less likely to be exercising six months later .
So it was the kind of the number on the scale , so it was a really simple scale . It went from minus five , which is very bad , to plus five , which is very good , and zero was neutral in the middle . So if people went very low on that scale during the run , then they were less likely to be exercising six months later .
Basically , which kind of makes sense in a way , because if you hate doing something then you'll probably quite likely to give it up quite early on . So it makes sense intuitively . But that hadn't been shown in a kind of like a normal everyday outdoor situation . That hadn't been shown on a treadmill , in a laboratory , the kind of the qualitative data work .
I thought really interesting . I had so much data because I had about 90 participants in total and they talked a lot about running with other people , all kinds of things , and then there was , like I also did field notes , so I was observing them and seeing what they did and how they behaved and yeah , it was very interesting study .
Definitely Lots to think about them .
So I'm just thinking about my experience . Did you interview them as to why they got to the start line ?
They talked about that . Usually they joined a beginner running group because they knew someone . It was very much word of mouth . This was quite a while ago , so I'm not quite sure how it would be nowadays that it's easier to find stuff online than it was back then .
Perhaps it was very much like word of mouth , or they saw a poster in the local park or that kind of thing and they decided to go along because they wanted to be in a beginner group . They wanted to be .
Also , there were a lot of women in the groups as well , a much higher percentage of women than men , and the men were a bit which I couldn't quite work out why men didn't want to join beginner running groups , but it was a definite phenomenon and the run leaders all said that yes , there were always a lot more women than men in the beginner groups , which is
really interesting as well .
Do you think , I don't know do you think they had more ? Women had more predilection to be in a group and men rather like to be more solitary . Could that have ?
been . I'm not sure . Maybe , yeah , yeah , I think . Maybe men , I don't know . I was trying to work out how you would market it better at men , maybe like how to run properly or how to have more expertise , and I thought maybe that might be a more male way to market it . It was very . It's really interesting observation that women are more likely to join .
I don't know whether that's still the case . Like I say , this was quite a few years ago now . Hopefully a lot more men join , begin running groups now . But Some of the women said they didn't like running by themselves because they felt a bit exposed . But actually I had one or two men say that as well in the groups .
So oh , okay , okay . So that's the reason why they might run on their own .
Possibly . Yes , yeah , yeah .
¶ Importance of Exercise in Daily Routine
It was just like a minor kind of part of that study , but it wasn't interesting things . Maybe I should do more research on that , I don't know . Yeah .
Now I was just saying that , or exercise is well , for me is always been quite an important thing because I had epilepsy . But it's not really . It's not , it doesn't affect me anymore , but yeah , it was quite a major thing . But the one outlet I did have was sport . I was quite good at sport , but academically it wasn't .
I think maybe the epilepsy affected me academically , but sport I was quite good at and I think that just carried on .
Yeah .
So it's always been an important part of my life . I just wondered if maybe some of the participants maybe it was just like integral to Then that their day to day is that to include exercise as part of their daily routine .
It's always there , but lots of people don't include exercise as part of their daily routine . I think it's only something like 25% of the population meet the physical activity guidelines .
I thought that was that's quite a lot . I thought it was a lot .
But also in terms of more people walk rather than run . Running is still very popular . It has become very popular , I think , and during COVID it was marked how many people took it up , which was very interesting , I thought . So I wonder how many of those people who took that gym lockdown have continued . That would be yes .
Maybe someone's done a study on that would be great .