At breaking the glass slipper, we believe it is important to have conversations about women and issues of intersection feminism within science fiction, fantasy and horror. To continue to do so, we need your help. Please consider supporting us on Patreon. During the conversation by following us on Twitter Facebook and Instagram. Hello. And welcome to breaking the glass slipper. I'm Charlotte bond, and I'm Megan Lee.
We have a lot of authors on our podcast, talking about their books, what inspired them, how they written and so on. Quite often they'll get drawn into the Tv series of films that inspired them, Stars trek. But a medium, we don't often touch upon is comics and graphic novels. Even though some of my favorite short fiction stories are in
Emily Carr through the woods. And those us who are sad that the cancellation of Firefly often go and revisit our favorite character, is in graphic novels such as the gospel according to Jane, fall guys and my personal favorite for the Shepherd tail. So joining us today is Kari Grant, creator of the worthy chaos redemption comics. Hello, Chris. Thank you for joining us. Tell us a little bit about your background and what worthy chaos redemption is all about
Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. I started writing 17 years ago for fun. I role play it a lot, being d. I started as 1 liners, and and then I kinda built up and I went from 1 liners to now I can sit and do 3 to 6000 words per sitting. And I wrote this... Story with a c writer while we role played, and we actually wrote about 13 novels, for fun, this is not published or anything. And so I didn't wanna waste an incredibly good story that I'm extremely passionate about. So
I decided to release them as comics. And with no knowledge whatsoever, I jumped into it, like, a complete moron on and here I am. So... Well, when we were chatting before, you said that series 1 is... 44 issues. And if Series 2 gets to go ahead. It's 30 issues. So you really have it a lot. Yeah. So so serious, well this a pre wall that's 5 issues, and then there's the series 1, which is 44,
which has a great ending. And if we are gonna continue, I'm gonna have a big warning that says do not read the epi log if you like happy endings, and then everything goes to Little hell at the end of that 1. And series 2 will be 30 issues. Series 3. We're still in the middle of writing it. We're about 4 books in, and then series 4 is where everything is war and and Egyptian gods, fight with Greek gods, with Celtic gods and it's gonna be a whole war on the war on the world.
So, yeah. This... It's a really long series. Definitely doing the first 44. Those are my goal. Issue 11 is live now. Kickstarter, but we're in the middle of drawing 17. So we're we're moving along, and and I'm making sure that the series gets done. So I'm a lot of things within indie creators is that they think that they're not gonna get their issue. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, the series isn't gonna get done, Why should I bother buying the book. But this series
is gonna get... Is gonna get done. And, you don't have to worry about getting your book because I do not start kickstarter until the book is act... Actually in my hand, so it gets shipped at within 7 days of the kickstarter ending. And we have a kickstarter every the month. So everyone can They don't have to wait long because we're horrible and and give cliff hangers every time. So you don't have to wait that long for the answer what happens.
I do. Hey. Cliff is that you don't have to tag around for ages. Yeah so. But we're, like, summer ones where the show will do something really horrible and you gotta wait, like, 4 months. I hate those yeah. But, I mean, that's a lot of comics. So have you grown up reading comics and graphic novels? Is that kind of where your interest? Started? Or is it a relatively new thing that has developed with the role playing? How did you get get into it all?
So originally, my older brother had taken me when I was a teenager to a kind bookstore and I got into ghost rider. I absolutely love ghost rider, and I read that pretty much that end black black hat were the 2 that I read the most. And then I kind of, like, your threw away from comics, and I didn't really do anything about it and read him or anything
like that. And then I started playing this game resident Evil too, and I became up obsessed with Claire Redfield, which is the main character, and that's actually who I role replayed for 17 years. And while I was role playing her, I got all these ideas for the story, And when I... I waited so long, I was trying to find like the best writer that It could. Not the best writer. That's actually she is to me the best writer, but I I wrote with a lot of amazing
writers, but they just... They all wanted the story and the role and I just couldn't find somebody that fit. You know, the character and all that stuff. So the the thing that's unique about our story is that 2 2 people wrote, the main characters. So I wrote everything, Sarah Fe. I write the story first. And then my c writer will write Dr. And so he'll write that point of view. In that. So you have 2 chapters of the same point of view, and then I put them together for the for the comic.
So when you're reading it, and they seem, like, totally different people, it's as they are That's a great way to. I like that very 2 very distinct voices. Yeah. You could definitely tell the difference because my character talks non nonstop and barely thinks. And dr thinks all the time the talk. So you can tell which one's which. Well, that certainly makes it easier for, you know, trying to write characters with distinct voices because... That can be tricky.
Yeah. Because you think you're you're making people unique and then there's... Sometimes it comes out in the writing, everything But we thought that, you know, this wasn't intentional. We kind of just rh played for 3 years and we just love the the story and the character so much, and And when we had a whole, series, we're were like, this is kind of too good to waste. And mostly we wanted the seat to come with to life. So it's mostly for us.
Well, yeah. I mean, if you're not writing for yourself, then what's the point? So I remember doing, like a script writing course way way back in the day. Let's pretend. It wasn't that long ago. And I remember sort of my teacher. He he came from the stage and always very, against having, you know, stage direction and things like that, and he said if Shakespeare didn't need it than you don't, and I'm like, I think Shakespeare was a little better than me, but thanks.
I put me. Yeah. And then I did, you know, like, a Tv sort of script writing, and then he was saying, you know, do a lot more of the description, but don't do too much that you step on, you know, the director's toes, and that sort of thing. So with comics, generally, you have the comic book writer who's sort of you write the script and then you get the artist to come in and draw the panels. I mean, how much option or direction do you put in when you are creating that script?
So mine's very simple. There are many different kinds of scripts. There's people that'll just give the artist, the whole thing to read, and they'll pick which pages they want, which I is extremely difficult. This people that have, like you said, a complete movie script where this is this and the panel goes up, and the panel is looking down and Blah blah nope. I just do very simple. In fact, we actually fought in the very beginning because he had never worked in comics before, and
Had never worked in comics before. And, we kind of butt heads, you know, like, he wouldn't follow the script perfectly because he has a vision and I had a vision. And for the first issue, we were really at each other's throats in my... You know, but I I wanted to make it work no matter what. So I actually wanna up compromising originally, I would have 6 to 8. Panels, which is a comic book is usually about that much. But what I did was, I I changed it to 4. So I do 4 panels
of what needs to be in there. You know, and then he fills it does whatever he wants to, and he actually wants up doing like, sometimes it's just for, and then sometimes it's like, It could be up to 12. Like, he'll just add... He likes to add actions and panels and stuff. So I compromised a lot and he worked out amazing. He does absolutely... Amazing panel work and action scenes and everything like that. So I'm I'm... I do the minimal of what
he needs to draw. It and it... That way, I can have either really big panels or really cool shaped panels and it it worked that really well. Well, I I feel like I've learned so much about comics in the short amount of time been talking there is so much detail there and it's absolutely fascinating. And obviously, you you work as a huge team. But I was really interested in, the relationship you have with the artist and
the kind of dialogue you've got going. And how much Lie leeway the artist has for their own vision and whether there any instances when the artist drawings have kind of come back and changed how you perceive your own character? Particularly if you've been role playing it. Is it a case like, no, This is my role play character. This is how it is? Or has they ask back and got it and you've gone oh, Yeah. Actually, I quite like that.
Actually, yeah. A couple of times, he's done something where I was like, That wasn't the vision I had, but I kinda liked it. It doesn't change the emotions of the characters or anything. We're very, very particular about that. But maybe a scene or or how she fights or something because my character's... You know, she's kind of a badass ass, and she does a lot a lot of fighting, and he kinda does his own little spin on it. Which is nice because she has some really cool moves and the way he
draws it is very action packed. So he has a lot of leeway to do what he wants when it comes to background or the action that they take and something like that expressions. I'm the 1 that says, okay, Dr raven looks... Mostly Dr looks miserable well time or Mad. But, you know, she'll a concerned or upset or Mad or whatever. So I do add those in there. But as far as action, he has a lot more leeway because he can explain it more than I ever could. You know I, sometimes I just write. Okay.
She beats them up. And then you know, he could do what he wants with that, and it works very well. So... And she looks badass. She does indeed. I really like look for your comic. It's fantastic. Wait do you see your fight in that issue 4. I don't know if he's read issue for, but I haven't got that far yet. No. No. We're there we're they're surrounded by some bar guys and and that first, she's not allowed to fight, and then, you know, she's able to and she
just kicks her ass. So... So obviously, you know, in the traditional comics, you know, we think about, you know, drawing something on paper, and then someone will pencil in the dialogue, and then you have someone ink in the pub. Dialogue. But in this day in age, I suppose that a lot of this is done digitally. Are you, you know, creating these comics digitally? Or are you doing a more traditional way? And do you know if, like, how much this is changed in the industry? Oh, it's all digital. Yeah.
I actually preferred digital. We just had this discussion on Facebook because Traditional is really nice. And when I I have an obsession with my characters where if there's an original art, I have to own it. And if I can't afford it, I won't let the the artist do the cover because I need to. It's just a really weird obsession of mine. So I do have some original covers, but when it comes to this... Comic itself. Everything's digital, which is nice because if there's a mistake or you have
to redo something or move something. You know, it's a lot easier to do that. Plus it's a lot faster, you know, it's easier on the wrist and and all that stuff, and it's, know not a lot of paper, and I don't have the pay and art. So everything's digital, including the lettering, the coloring, the inking. I, he doesn't even pencil anymore.
He goes straight to inking, which is nice and and I I kinda miss seeing the sketch out, You know, he used to, like, for our hard cover book 2, you can see the sketch. From from a very rough draft to a little bit more enhanced to the inking. But, you know, now that we're an issue 17. He's like, I'm just gonna go straight and dink it, and he does, and he does it amazing and it's faster. But sometimes I miss those little those little details. But, yeah, everything's digital and it's it's so
much easier. Like, I understand why people do traditional, but, man, when you just... I get 2 pages. I get 6 pages a week about, and I love it. So and Fantastic, I love that the issue 17. It's just straight inking. None of this pencil rubbish. Just, yep. Know what I'm doing. The line sorted. X. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, since issue 3, the first thing you say when he start Issue 3 is like, okay. I know these characters, I know we're the... Got what they're gonna do most of the time and all
that stuff. I still surprise him though, and then he doesn't like spoilers, and he gets upset, like, don't tell me. And I was, really, we but he he knows them pretty well. On. And he's just... He's pretty obsessed with it just like us. You know, like, if we we had a time where... He wasn't drawing from Thursday to Sunday. And he gets paid the same amount of time. So he said to me, I can't stand this 4 day break draw on this comic.
He has other comics to draw. So it was just funny to hear him say that. So now he has to draw on Monday Wednesday Friday. So there's not a big gap. So it's it's kinda cool that he's he loves drawing it as much as we love seeing it. And sounds like a really brilliant team you've got there. I mean, we've been talking a lot about Craft, and I really really have just learnt so much, but I do kinda want to ask about horror comics and graphic novels in particular.
As a horror writing myself, obviously, I use descriptions, involving the senses, scenery, feelings, all that kind kinda. I've got so many words I can employ. And when we have, horror films, have music sound and lighting. So I was wondering when you come to build a horror scene or an element horror within your comic graphic novel. What elements do you use to build tension and the atmosphere and to create the the sort of f on of fear?
What what elements do you employ that some that aren't available to us humble authors? So some of the things I like, for example, I actually just did a panel where you see this giant cent, you know, kind of... I know if you know Cent is usually blind. So it's kind of touching his face. And then you you don't realize that something is it's this on the side. You could see something appear on the side of the panel. We're
not sure it was. And then in the next panel, you realized that it was these giant hands are just totally demolished this cent pete, and the guts and everything went all over the the guy that was in front of it. So it's kind of like that kind of adding little things in the background in issue 1. You probably didn't even notice this, but there's 2 things in the
background. So 1 when they first are... They first see each other in the street, there's actually an alligator in the sewer, which is 1 of my easter eggs because that's actually it started the whole things. Alligator in consumer. And then I think at the next page, if you look literally all the way in the back, there's this tiny an cloud and these tiny shadows, and those are the ghosts
that are about to approach. So we plan things that you could see in the background, but, a lot of people miss them, But, every issue has an Easter egg, by the way, of a horror, Nightmare Elm street, Friday the thirteenth, they're they're all in the backgrounds. So there are little details there. But for suspense and stuff, usually, it's kind of like what's coming or... You know, what... What's kind of behind them that they don't see what you see. And you know it's coming, but you can't... Just
like in a movie. You can't warn them that they're right there. So that's that's kinda how we do it by just... And we do have sounds, you know, like moan and groan that my my lovely letter adds in wonderfully. So, yeah, It's not it's not as a movie is a little bit easier. You just have the creepy music. So it's a little bit harder to draw in suspense. So and jump scares, but it's it's kinda nice when you can figure out to do it properly.
1 of the things I found amazing in Adam Neville horror novel, the ritual was that you managed to put a jump scare in by you were reading something then you turned a page and suddenly it was something massively unexpected. And I keep meaning to ask when I came around whether or not it was deliberate or it was just the way it all felt. Would it occurs to me that when it comes to comics and graphic novels. It is possible to suddenly do a a jump scare and kind of open the comic and
turn the page and there's something there. Is that something you employed or is it just 2 tech Kate. No. We we we love Cliche. Sometimes. Yeah. There's a couple of it where there's a monster there, and you don't you know, you're... It's about to kill somebody and then all of a sudden, the next page this giant axe comes down, and you're kind of, like, what the hell has happened. And then you realize it's an actually bigger monster. So does I like it. Bigger monster of
an. Excellence. Yeah. Diet ax that comes down. So we do we do like to have those little things and eat. Fortunately, when you... I don't know... I'm sure it's a way when you write the novels. I... When I wrote the novels, they weren't really formatted. So I wouldn't have known what page would be next if you did that on I'm purpose. But fortunately, with comics, we do plan it where there's 2 things we like to plan. If there's a jump scare, or there's as a cliff hanger.
We're very famous for Cliff hangers as much as people might hate and love them at the same time. But we plan them so that you know when you get to the last page you you're like, what the hell. I just had somebody that read issue 11.
Yell. At me. Plan because of the ending, which I can't spoil because it's it's it's on there now, But, they they they get so invested in our characters, which is such a compliment And I even have my letter or get scared because of 1 of our characters Chat, which you won't even see so issue 10. He's in love Chad. He's the cutest little vampire chameleon bat. He's just like, he'll be okay. Right? I was like, alright. Sure. I like this insanity there.
Fine. Yeah I mean, you said that you likely share. So this is the perfect. Little s into asking about tropes, because we love tropes. And, you know, they they get a bad name but obviously, on this podcast, you know, as Charlotte mentioned, we tend to talk more novels, short stories, sometimes film and television, but comics really get a look in. And, you know, we've get things like the final girl trope and things that we're familiar with seeing
in these other mediums? I mean, are there the same kinds of tropes in horror comics or like it, does anything differ because of the format it's they're they're there. You know, we have you know, some sequences that can be a dream sequence. And everyone hates them and and but then they they love them at the same time. You know, You're like, This a dream. Is this not a dream. We have a couple of...
Hits in the background. Like, they're... In in 1 through 7, there's something that's going on in the background that if you don't realize what's happening. You're like, what the hell is going on. And then when you figure it out on issue 7, you're like, holy crap, Then you gotta go back and read the rest because you're like, oh, that's what was happening. So we do like to have, like, the, you know, things like that, like, little bit cliche where it's like, it could be a dream, more trick.
I think we had 1 that was a a dream where it was very brief, but, like, you think somebody was killed or something and they actually weren't. Things like that. And we love the circa sarcastic nature. We have a lot of sarcastic ness and all that fun stuff. We have the vampires and ours, those aren't ours are called clutter and have a lot more rules that I probably shouldn't take the time to explain. But, yeah, we we do like to have the little
tropes. And, you know, she she says the sarcastic things where she poke out the eye of a of a zombie. And She's just, like, it's all fun and games until you lose an eye. You know, she likes the the the cliche lines that you hear on the movies, you know, catch phrases and stuff like that. So, yeah. We like to add those in. The Are there any tropes that you try to avoid?
Because obviously, there are some problematic ones or, you know, over the years maybe certain tropes have been used to kill off the... Any gay characters? Or, you know, these kinds of things. I mean, are there any specific tropes, that you try to avoid including or if you kind of wanna talk about overturn them. I mean, that sometimes people do like to include them, but sort of flip them on their head.
Yeah. We did we want to avoid the whole, it's a dream thing, but we kinda did something around it that was similar to it, but... So it wasn't. And I can't explain it, otherwise, it'll it'll it'll give it away. But we didn't wanna do that. All we woke up and everything's fine. You know, or it ever really happened or any of that. So
we tried to avoid that. That was a big 1 because we didn't want people to kill us and be like, you know, that was a whole dream, but we did something that was a twist on it, where you think that it might be a dream, and you think you know what's happened happening or what's gonna happen and then we kind of turned it around and been like, no. That's not what we did. So, yeah. We did
we did something like that. That's actually a big trophy Is the the wake up and it's a dream thing, because it's so easy to do that. You know? And we don't we don't wanna just kill somebody off and then You know I don't know if you've guys ever seen the show supernatural. Everyone that dies pretty much comes back. And we are fully onto that because we are very supernatural. So you kind of know... You which characters coming back and which and which
wouldn't. And I don't like to be too mean, but we did do you know, a t on, time travel. So we have that 1 which I actually hate time travel in movies, but I used it anyway because I wanted to So that's a big intro for where it's like, oh, we'll just we'll go back in time and fix it. So, yeah. We do we do have that later on. I have to say I do like me a bit supernatural natural. And I know what you mean about the favorite characters come back and and things like that. So the best
part. Walking dead is like the opposite of supernatural. It's like, they kill of everybody and Met then your character's gone. And I loved walking dead, but I'm still mad about Glenn, and I I hated certain things that happened. So, yeah. I I can I can do the things that I want in my story? After admit with... The bit where Maggie kills 1 of the girls. Oh, my god. I sold my heart out with that. I don't know if you remember that 1. But it was care. Remember Carol. Sorry Enough my flowers.
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That was that was a that was a bit harsh. Yeah. Yeah. That was Love Carol. I mean, she turned into... She's my... I think she had the biggest growth. That's to go tangent. Yes. Yes. She Went from this, I'm this was woman who will do as my husband says, to. I'm gonna kill everybody. So you know, there's some growth there. So I was gonna ask, you've obviously written, like you say some novels previously. And you've done this comic.
I just wondered given how comics and graphic novels are a huge visual medium as much as they are sort of written. And whether you would ever think of diversifying into making a little mini horror film or a little mini horror shorts. She only find those amazing ones on on Youtube, like, 5 minutes and they're absolutely terrifying. I
love what she weighs. Or even something longer, you know, like a little series, and I know it has a huge amount of of different talents and you have to to get active in and you have to get lighting and all this kind of thing. But it does strike me that the way you write the comics and just how striking the images are. Have you ever thought you know what? I can't like to do a horror. I... Actually, my dream is to have it be a rated... Violent animated series. Oh cool.
I think you could do so much with it. It's a very long series. I don't have to worry about the actors aging, for and you could do things that you normally couldn't do. I think the... Like you said it's very visual, and sometimes it's lost, you know, in in in live action, And I love live action. Don't get me wrong. I have favorite movies and But I'm very full of emotion and, you know, things like that. So I think I would love...
To have that that emotion and the animated characters and and being able to see the monsters just come to life and not worry about Cheesy Cgi or, you know, actually, out prefer practical effects. But, you know, all that is very expensive and all that. But if I had to choosing, if I had all the money in the world, would be awesome. I would definitely do an animated series. And it I would have to be in charge of it. I will never license this out.
I will never sell it. So it have to be something that I have complete control over because I will never have this series I'd rather have nothing than have it completely ruined or destroyed or, you know, turned into something that I have no idea what they did do it. So let's switch gears again. Because, you know, just as you get really comfortable that we're talking about 1 thing, I'm gonna take you somewhere else. So when it comes to comics and representation of women in comics.
In the stuff that I read, I've been reading a lot more create own comics that are written by women, and so you tend to get a bit more, you know, body image diversity. You get more interesting characters that aren't just like massive tits, tiny waist, impossibly beautiful. So like, what do you find is kind of the the most common thing that's still seeing? Are you still seeing the kind of... Ridiculous portrayal of women or yes. Is it? Okay. You know, and and you know,
they sell. They sell on kickstarter, They make hundreds of thousands of dollars. But I didn't go that way. My my my story has no nudity. I did add a couple sexy covers, but never top list, never anything. She's just... But She's just sexy. She's a sexy girl. She's does... She's not... She doesn't have huge boobs. She She does wear a nurse outfit fit, but I'm gonna be completely honest with you that was not on purpose, and it wasn't for
the sexuality of it. It's because my my artist has a horrible memory, and he kept forgetting to draw in a wound she had, and I had to think of a way to get rid of it. So to do that, she was an trapped in a and a haunted asylum. I couldn't think of a shirt she would wear, so she had... She put on a nurse's outfit it. And then it just became her thing. So it wasn't intentional, but guys obviously love the nurse outfit it. So... Yeah. They were just, like, what made you do that? I was
like I... My artist has a horrible memory. Was not on purpose. But, I mean, was there anything, You know, you you say, She's... She's beautiful girl. She's amazing, She kicks us, etcetera. But were there any specific things like that you did say to your artist or that you really wanted to make sure that you... Didn't do in sort of the the treatment of your female characters or something maybe that you definitely wanted to make sure that they did. I said never never top and never over.
It was like 1. I don't know what he was thinking. There's a a ghost nurse and han asylum. And I guess, like, I let's say there's a nipple slippage, but her shirt was too low or weird and the artist, I guess had put her nipple there, and I had to have the color... Take it out. I was you can't you can't have any in there. So I tried to avoid all, top list covers, all top less anything. And I wanted it to be not too low cut and not too tight.
Like, her. She's got a nurse's outfit it, which is sexy, but it's not like, really super tight to her. Granted did some of the covers. They're super tight, because I give the artist that do the covers freedom to do what they want. Of course they chose incredibly sexy succeed in your yourself. But in the story yourself, it's a normal nurse outfit that goes, like, down to our knees, You know, it's not like this completely sexual outfit. So that was a big thing. And also, you know, Ser
is not a dams. You know? I mean Raven wants to protect her. And you know, she kind of lets them sometimes, but generally, she does things in her own. You could tell a growth between them because in in issues went through 7. She won't allow them to do anything. Like, she runs in the room without them, and And even in 17 or 6... Scene. She runs into a room that pisses him off because she's just like, let me do it. And she's like, nope. I got this. So mostly, she is a a stronger character.
You know, She's not a dams. She doesn't She's not gonna wait to be rescued. You know, it might happen now and then because they're in a very dangerous situation, but she's she's still... She's not the type to scream for help, you know? So do you find that there are more women writing comics these days? And if there are, like, are they the ones driving change when it comes to the representation of women in comics?
I only know of 1 other 1, Laurie C, which she's actually would help me come out because you know, as as being a woman Write? When I first started this, I did not tell anyone, I was a female, I would just have my logo from my you know, picture. I did no videos and no audio I did no interviews. I thought that I would not be taken seriously because not only am I a woman in comics, I do her. And I didn't know if I would be taken seriously. So I did...
I I kind of avoided that. And then she came along and she does, zombie Cowboy. She has a a western zombie apocalyptic story. And I... It was like, well, if she can do it, then I can do it. Fantastic. Thank you for that. And, obviously, I'll give another shout out for Emily Carroll through the woods which I absolutely adore is a horror. It's so it's so cool. I'm gonna have a look better. Yeah. Oh, definitely. It's very good. It is It's good. In fact, didn't I send it to you?
Audio do sent it to me a can't. You got it from me. Yeah was so. Brilliant, Well, thank you so much for joining us Chris. It has been amazing to talk to you, and I feel like I've learned so much. You're gonna join us on Patreon for a few minutes just to answer some questions about running a kickstarter, which is really fantastic. So that's our patrons, but For everyone else, I want to say thank you so much for coming and chatting to us today.
Breaking the glass slipper is written and produced by Megan Lee, Charlotte Bombed, and Lucy. Please help us spread the word, subscribe and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. We want to hear from you. Let us know what you would like to hear on the next episode of breaking the glass slipper.