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Let's talk here about Zoron, Mom, Donnie and the New
York Times, because this is an interesting story. So before we jump into the New York Times piece, we have to get a little bit of Steve Bannon's take on zoron so Much Bannon in today's show, So Much Bannon, And by the way, I do want to just say, like Bannon has taken a lot of L's so I don't want to overstate his importance, but I just I always think it's interesting to hear his thoughts because he does have a better grasp I think of the political moment that many others.
Let me just say anecdotally, someone who was recently on Warroom told me like after they went on war Room, immediately they had I think like within a couple of minutes, one hundred.
Plus new followers on X.
And so Bannon has like, you know, it's still true that your average X user is exceptional from the average American because not most people are on Twitter, and most people aren't watching, aren't watching, most people are not watching Steep Bannon. But he does actually have a really I think strong tether to the mega base itself. I think the like hardcore Maga bandon still sets the tone for them.
That is not a majority of the American public, but it's a small group that he does have a lot of sway with and listens to him every day.
Yeah, but I mean usually what he uses his way for is, yeah, he'll protest in advance about let's say Medicaid cuts, or about the tax cuts for the right Trump decides, or about Elon, and then once Trump decides and does whatever, then Bannon's role becomes explaining to the magabase why actually this is fine and why you have to trust the plan and why, oh, well, he must have attacked Aroun because he had more intelligence than we did. We just have to trust this guy, so that is
actually the role that he starts. Nevertheless, his analysis of Zoran Hundani was a lot more interesting and intelligent than the people who were claiming that he's going to implement sharreal law in Manhattan. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of what he had to say.
That's one of the most sophisticated races, and he focused on affordability and he addressed their issues. Now his response, he took the anger of the moment of populism and got engaged with people. Cuomo ran a traditional thing. This kid ran a very sophisticated campaign, a very sophisticated campaign on the grassroots.
And we can put the next piece up on the screen. I mean. He talked also about how the messaging was intelligent. He said that Mumdannie's diagnosis of New York's affordability crisis sounds quite similar to Bannon's description of America's to seem to agree on seventy percent panitas fifty percent, but that's still a lot. Politics today is all about authenticity. Mam Donnie's campaign was today's equivalent of Barack Obamas. He's walking
down grocery aisles, chatting on TikTok. He accepted every interview requests, relied on grassroots organizing, kuomba name recognition. His campaign raised almost forty million dollars, secured Bill Clint's endorsement. His appearances were curated. The traditional Democratic Party is dead. I wish that were true, Mom Donnie, blew it up. I wish that were true. Do you share the conservative view that an unabashed socialist and support of the Palestinian cause is
a gift to Trump? Bannon shakes his head. You shed more tears for answered prayers than unanswered prayers. Who replies, Mam Donnie can bring people out. Populism is the future
of politics. So he sees him as basically like And I do think that I don't want to understate actually the significance of Mum Donnie's victory because being able to run as an unabashed anti zionist in New York City and when is an earthquake and you have a huge schism in the Democratic between the democratic base and Democratic elites. I do not think that most people vote on gaza. But I do think that Gaza is becoming a litmus test issue for the Democratic base, which says to people,
does this person have a shred of integrity? Are they willing to stand up against you know, political forces or you know, well organized, well funded forces and actually fight for something. And it is the sort of schism between the base and the elite of the party that you know, it's the sort of thing that Trump actually exploited in his twenty sixteen victory, and I think there is going to be a real reckoning with that in twenty twenty eight.
Not to mention, of course, the economic pieces that everyone is like, you know, melting down on the grocery stores and the rent freeze, et cetera, and the overt embrace of like, yes, I'm a democratic socialist and that's just who I am, and I'm not running away from it whatsoever. No.
I think that's right, and I think what Bannon is recognizing. And again, like I've seen an interesting discourse on the right about Mom Donnie since he won. Because you noticed that Bannon was talking to Marjorie Taylor Green, who posted the initial hilarious meme of the statue of liberty and what like a full burku. Yeah, and there's been there was this like initial reflex to just be completely grossed out picked out by mom Donnie, that people like Bannon
started to I think, change a bit. And you've seen It's not like it's the whole right is embracing Mom Donnie. But you've seen this interesting strain, and I think it's probably in part due to new media, this interesting strain of people being like, whoa, look at what he did with young voters and millennials in New York City, having like, we have this information right in front of us. That's like a pretty clear sign that he was speaking to something.
And it's just a not only a smart observation by Bannon.
But I don't think it's an easy one to make right now.
He can make it because he's sort of seen this like a godfather like figure, but not an easy point to make at all.
All right, let's talk about the New York Times. So they published this big scoop that they apparently raced the process because they wanted to beat Chris Rufoy, who was also chasing down the same story. To put this up on the screen. They reveal exclusively that mom. Donnie identified as both Asian and African American on his college application to Columbia. Specifically, they says he doesn't consider himself black, but he said the application did not allow for the
complexity of his background. They included the specific you know form and how he checked the box showing these are the questions be opposed to applicants about race and ethnicity during the two thousand and nine twenty ten application cycle when he applied and he indicated he was both black or African American and Asian. Okay, Now a little quick refresher on his backgrounds here. He was born in Uganda. He was in his family had been in Uganda for generations.
There were a bunch of Indian laborers who brought were brought over by the British in the early eighteen hundreds to do basically like you know, slave labor in Uganda, indentured servitor in Uganda, and it became this thriving diaspora community that ends up being actually quite successful within Yugana. And so his family is part of that history. Obviously, he's also South Asian, being you know, ethnically from the
Indian subcontinent. So he marks these two boxes and they are acting like this is sort of a giant scandal. There were three reporters put on it. One of them was a health reporter, by the way, at a time when people are like losing Medicare and the hospitals or rural hospitals are under attack, and this is what they're focused on. In addition, you may ask yourself, well, how did they how did they come upon this information? Emily, where did they Where did they get us from? And
we can put C three up on the screen. They got it from this guy who posts as CRIMEA. He runs a sub stack. He's also very prominent on X.
Your French is beautiful.
Christ Oh, thank you very much, Mercy. He focuses a lot Emily on race and IQ quote unquote academic who focuses a lot on race and IQ prominently feature posts there. Seeks to defend the argument that average national IQs very by up to forty points, with countries in Europe and North America and East Asia at the high end, countries in the Global South at the low end, and several African countries reportedly having average national IQs at a level
that experts associate with mental impairments. So basically, he's your sort of average Twitter racist that got a hold of these hacked documents from Colombia. Now, listen, I am not against news organizations using hacked material, even if it comes from a sketchy source. But you know who has been
against that in the past. That would be the New York Times, who refused to report on, for example, the Iranian hacks of Trump campaign documents, including the jd Vance dossier, and refused to publish it in part apparently because of the source of those hacks. In addition, when they first put out this report, they really glossed over who this guy.
They called him like an academic who's opposed affirmative action, when in reality, he's just like a brazen racist that you know, posts like your average Twitter racist posts.
Ultimately, I didn't go back and look at his feed. Is it bad?
It's exactly what you expect.
Yeah.
So it's also, I mean, this whole story, we tease this at the beginning of the shows, so many layers to peel back, the first of which is like, I don't I think it's pretty clear that mom Nannie was playing by the rules that we as a society set for college applications.
For a very long time, correct now, I don't know.
I mean, if we're if you're, if you're going to do and say all of these different identities are important and material to whether or not you belong academically at Colombia. I would probably disagree with the system like that. At the same time, that is the system that existed. What's actually somewhat remarkable, crystals that with all of that, he didn't get into Colombia. Apparently he's like, you couldn't come up with like a bigger parody of like affirmative action system on paper.
Right than the NANNI.
Application, being like, well, the Asian part might have killed.
Him, that's right, Maybe he should have left that off.
So this is really about that than that, you know. I mean, I think it's what he said, and I think it's reasonable, And I also think it's reasonable, say, like, you know, he was putting what he thought would be beneficial for him on a cool application, as one does. But I think when he he was like, these boxes don't really fit my identity, and I think that's fair. His identity is complex. He talks about it a lot.
It's something his you know, his dad is a professor of these sorts of things, and they clearly thought deeply about it, so I also don't think it was casually done. He sees himself as like he is from Uganda, his family is from Uganda for multiple generations as he also right, yeah, but he you know also is you know, has this Indian ethnic heritage, so to check both those boxes, like, I'm not really sure how else he should have filled out that for him.
I completely agree, and I think it's the problem. I mean so from my position on this, and I bet it would have been Rufo's position on this, I think it exposes sort of the absurdities of the critical theory that mom Dannie and his father actually wax poetic about and believe really deeply in. At the same time, he has a much stronger claim to both of these heritages
than somebody like and use this as a proxy. I know it's cringy, but Elizabeth Warren, who many such cases, like, she's an example of something that's happened for decades in college admissions, and I just think it all like exposes the absurdity of this and how immaterial and silly that it can be to insist that by checking off these boxes. You know a significant amount about the person based on it, and you can make a determination as to whether they
belong at your school. I mean, I think it's all just absurd, But The New York Times doesn't believe what I believe.
It's funny.
It's just an incredibly funny anecdote, or not even an anecdote, like an experiment in them having to it's because it's the Ramm Dannie. The New York Times has decided that they're going to apply a very critical lens.
You might say they're waging a jihad against him in the language of Kirsten Chillibrands. Let me, I want to jump to Curtis Lee.
Why here?
Who is the Republican nominee for you know in this race? And by the way, there's so much billionaire pressure on him. Bill Ackman is going to to try to get Leewah out of this race so that Eric Adams or Andrew Kuoma. I guess who did he get behind Adams or Quoma I forgot anyway one of them can consolidate and ride to victory overs or on Mom Donnie. In any case, Leewa gets asked about this on Fox News and I'm sure Fox News was expecting him to attack Zoron over this,
and he did not. He chose not to do that. So let's go and take a listen to C seven.
I do know he is a practicing Muslim, and I've advised our colleagues, which there on many on our side of this issue, because we know Zoran will destroy this city, do not attack his religion. Leave the religion alone. If you don't want to see him elected. There are a million Muslims in New York City who can vote, many of them with conservative values, many of them who voted for Donald Trump for president.
So he credit that background in the center of his campaign.
Right, you can criticize him as being a communist, socialist, anti semi check, but leave the religion alone. Now, he would consider himself Southeast Asian, although he's of Indian heritage. His mother and father he grew up in Uganda. So I guess you could sort of put it in the blender. I don't have a problem with how he shall f identify it.
Put it in a blender. Emily. That is to me also, such a New York response. You know, and I mean, you say a lot of things about Chris Leewa, who I used to be on a bunch of Fox panels with. I told you so, I've met him a few times in real life. But he is a New Yorker hm, and so he's looking at this, He's like, don't attack him because he's a Musliman because of his identity, Like you want to go after him, you know, talk about his policies and whatever. But yeah, he's from Ugandha, he's Muslim,
he's Indian, and he's all those things. Put him in the blender. However he self identifies whatever. Who cares? How is this really the issue?
Producer Mac went viral for posting that video, and Sake Sleiwa just outwoke to The New York Times.
Yeah it's true, buddy.
I mean it is a point in favor of the like racist the social construct.
Well, it's a point in favor of that, absolutely, And I have always taken that as being a point in favor of not using it as such material of such material importance in certain processes like affirmative action, for example.
But we don't necessarily have to have that debate.
Is just funny, No, I mean I don't actually disagree with you on that let's go and put let's see. I think the New York Times response is C five because they clearly their common section was furious with them. They took a lot of heat over this because we think about this. They used hack documents from a quote unquote race realist to rush out this piece. They were apparently rushed it out because they were trying to beat Chris Rufo to the punch, like what are you doing?
In any case, This is one of the reporters, Patrick Keely, talking about why they did and this is so funny. He says, sometimes sources have their own motives or obtain information using means we wouldn't like Trump's taxes, WikiLeaks or Edward Snowden. It's important to share what we can about sourcing. We always independently assess newsworthiness. Okay, you are comparing this to WikiLeaks exposure of work crimes or Edward Snowden's exposure
of mass surveillance. That's what Zoron's Columbia application race selection. You're comparing that to WikiLeaks. And again, just to reiterate, it would be great if the New York Times had a consistent standard here.
They do not.
They do not, So what is the standard ultimately, because apparently sometimes it matters whether it's hacked and who it comes from. And sometimes when they just you know, want to go after a particular candidate, then it doesn't matter, and they're happy to use hacked documents from wherever they come.
I mean, from my perspective, I can't help but enjoy this because it's a story of such little consequence.
Yeah that I just I have to laugh my way through the entire thing.
They are embarrassing, They're absolutely embarrassing the mess. Last piece I'll put up here. We've got Eric Adams, you know, grabbing onto this, and a lot of people commented to it, could put this is c eight guys and could put up on the screen. A lot of people were noting that in the primary Cuomo was like a Cuomo aligned super pac to be specific, here was like darkening Zorn's skin and like ramping up his beard to make him
look like scarier. And now in the wake of this story, they're trying to like lighten his skin and make him look more like, oh, he's just you know, basically a white guy. And so Eric Adams says or on mom Donnie identified as Asian African American has got the picture there of him checking Asian and African Americans. So whatever, Yeah, there you go.
It's like how you need You just have to enjoy it. You just have to enjoy it.
Incredible. All right, Let's go ahead and get to Tim Dillan and Joe Rogan. So we have continued to see some concerns raised from the sort of bro podcast sphere that had been pro Trump leading up to his election, and specifically over the issue of immigration, which, to be honest with you, is a little bit of a surprise to me, because there are lots of things in Trump two point zero that I think it's reasonable to have been surprised by. His aggressive approach to immigration is not
one of them. They were literally holding up mass deportation now signs at the RNC. Nevertheless, it's good to see that there are concerns being raised here, you know, with people who maybe will be influential among a large, sort of more independent base. Let's go ahead and start with Tim Dillon and some of what he had to say.
You're collecting people that are law abiding, that have been in the country a very long time, that have committed no crime. You're picking people up in church parking lots at high school graduations. It's inhumane, and I think a lot of people feel that way. But in fairness to the Trump team, they did think of this and say, what if we put them all in a prison surrounded
by alligators? Would that make it feel more humane? Like I think Trump and his people were like, sure, people find these raids to be a bit abrupt and uh, you know, soulless, unkind. But if if we then took the people we swept up and put them in a prison built in an alligator swamp, would that make people feel better? It's a great way, I think, to show that it's not just a heartless policy.
It's a policy that we've.
Put a lot of thought into.
So there you go to Tim Dllon's take on alligator Alcatraz, like, Oh, your policy that was already dreadfully unpopular, of snatching up like innocent people who've been paying their taxes, has been here for years and years from a home depot. This
will make it better. I'm sure that will mess that we're serious about this, And he goes on a whole thing to about how you know, there are many other types of deadly animals throughout the us, Like, why not put them inside of like a shark literal shark tank down in the ocean, with the sharks swimming around. Maybe
we could get some like grizzly bears involved. So in any case, it's interesting to me, Emily that I mean, first of all, it's interesting to me that anyone was surprised by this direction from the Trump administration, given that you've got Steven Miller running the show and running the show, and even more like, I think he has completely taken over this portfolio in a way even beyond what was the case in the twenty sixteen Trump but given the
first administration, given the rhetoric on the campaign trail, and you know, given the like explicit promises that were made that this was going to be a focus. I know, Trump claimed that, oh, well, this will just be focused on He didn't say just be focused on criminals, but he made it seem like the focus of the policy would be on a mass criminal illegal alien population.
The first over and over again, Right, that's what we want to do.
First definitely not the case, but also they projected, they made it seem like, you know, the vast majority of undocumented immigrants were in fact criminals, which is just not reality.
So I think that's where you know, they're running up against the difference between the projection of the Trump campaign and the way this was portrayed and then the actual reality of seeing moms, dads, neighbors, people who have you know, lived in this country and cause no problem committed, no crimes, done all the right things, even people who were actually following the process and trying to you know, apply for asylum and like showing up for their hearings and all
of those things. This is the same thing that happened really in the first Trump administration as well, where mass immigration has never been more popular than it was during the first Trump administration.
Which is why then you had every twenty twenty Democrat running on a very pro immigration in a very relaxed border policy, and you know, Biden particularly talked tough about border security and all of that, but they were telegraphing the signaling over and over again was that this would be a much more lenient and welcoming administration. And so yeah, I mean, we should roll this this Rogan clip as well,
because it echoes Tim Dylan. I mean, to your point, Crystal, this is one of those political I don't want to say conundrums, but it is kind of a conundrum for the GOP, which the Republican base is very different from the rest of the country. The Trump basse, I should say, actually, it's very different from the rest of the country on the question of mass deportation. So it pulls very differently depending on what you're looking at when you get it,
and you've pointed this out a lot. When you get into the specifics of what quote unquote mass deportation, looks like, people are less supportive than when you just use the phrase mass deportation.
But this is really really important to the Republican base.
People like Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller believe that you never have the same country again if there isn't a process of mass deportations over the course of the Trump administration, and their definition of mass deportation is really undoing the entire Biden era, which will involve basically, if you wanted to take eight million, if you wanted to deport the eight million estimated people who came in at least during the Biden administration. First of all, that's not all illegal immigration.
A lot of it was legalized by the Biden administration, which created the asylum process, and well not created, but expanded the asylum process and made it really easy. They did not detain people and let them into the interior of the country while their asylum hearings waited because there were so many people, and so to undo that, you're talking about tens of thousands of deportations a week. If you wanted to do it in a year, it would be like twenty thousand deportations a day at least.
So it's not.
Going to I think they always knew it wouldn't be what the public looked like. It wouldn't be conger with the public's expectation. When you hear mass deportations and you see that juxtaposed with concert rhetoric about criminality and all of that, it's going to look different in practice.
And they want to go further than just rolling back what happened during the Biden administration. By that, I mean you have memo from the DOJA talking about let's prioritize denaturalizing US citizens. I mean that goes that goes far beyond you. Genuinely. I mean Stephen Miller is a genuine ideologue who wants a white eth no state, and anyone who doesn't fit his category of what an American should be, he thinks should be fair game to get out of the country. And so that is, you know, the project
that they're embarking on. And as aggressive as the raids have been so far, you now also have the one big, beautiful bill that floods ICE with resources where they're supposed to have ten thousand ICE agents, largest federal law enforcement agency, as I said before, a larger than the military budget of places like Brazil and Israel. Just a huge influx of resources, not to mention an extraordinary flooding of money to private prison contractors who will be setting up these,
you know, mass detention centers. So in any case, you've already got the Tim Dillons and the Joe Rogan's of the world somewhat uncomfortable with what's going on. Let's go ahead and roll what Joe Rogan had to say about this dtwo.
We were told there would be no There's two things that are insane. One is the targeting of migrant workers, not cartel members, not gang members, not drug dealers, just construction workers showing up in construction sites raiding them.
Gardeners.
Yeah, like really or passing students on college campuses or not, like there's a target. Did you see this video of this Turkish students at Tufts University that wrote an essay and then there's a video of like Ice agents, Like is that the woman? Yeah?
Yeah, what was her essay about? It was just critical of Israel?
Right, yeah?
I mean, and that's enough to get you kicked out of the country.
There's a long history of.
Anti colonial activism in the US colleges, you know, that led to to you know, South Africa changing and all of that, and I think this is a continuation of that.
And Emily, it seems to me like there have been a few things that have really touched a nerve for people in the Trump two point zero era with regard to the immigration policy. Number one is the what they were talking about there, the kidnapping of Ramesa Osterk which happened on camera. You have these masked ICE agents. I think they were ICE agents. I don't even know what federal agency they came from, who came multiple of them, grabbed her off the street and then lo and behold
we learn what did she do? She wrote an op ed for the student newspaper, calling for the university to divest from Israel, like the most basic First Amendment protected called activism, you know, and she I think the visual not at no, at all, no. And I think the visual of seeing her snatch off the street for that, I think that was really searing for people totally. I
think kill mar Abrego Garcia and what happened there. He really became, you know, as you had him and hundreds of others swept up, no due process, and the Trump administration admits that this was they shouldn't have done this, that this was a wrongful deportation, and yet they're so committed to keeping him in this horrific slave labor camp dungeon in El Salvador. I think that you can see in the poll numbers that the favorability of Trump on
immigration really begins to decline there. And then the other thing that really touched on nerve for some reason was these home depot rates. And you have a moment with you know, reportedly Steven Miller goes to Ice and yells at them and says, why are you focusing on the criminals. I want to see you go to the seven elevens. I want to see you in name checks at home depots specifically, and then you see an escalation in the tactics. That's what also leads to the anti ice protests in
places like LA. But something about picking up the home depot day laborers really struck guys like Joe Rogan, guys like Tim Dillon, because I think it feels so familiar. These are not like, you know, the scary theoretical gang members who are out there terrorizing community. It's like, you know, Rogan has probably been to that La home depot where that raid happened. He may have used some of those day laborers for some project around his house or something like.
It just feels so suburban and so familiar that it's impossible to caricature these guys as some like nasty menace to society in the way that the Steven Miller's and the Trumps of the world want to.
Well, I was gonna say this is another example of where that golf is significant. Because Rogan and Tim Dillon are wealthy, independent. You talk to the kind of red meat Trump bass, they are going to be all for home depot right It's in the Stephen Miller and Donald Trump is not quite on board with the home depot rays by the way, because he's clearly been curing from the hospitality industry, construction industry, and is.
Himself bigag not sold on.
What we saw from it was like the Lejoe where you had workers running through the field when Ice was trying to make a rest and that golf is I mean, it's not going anywhere. Because you have Stephen Miller making this his single priority. This is Bannon's like if he if Bannon is ranking his priorities, this is probably the literal top one because they actually believe that this is like the the Jenga block that once it's pulled, everything crumbled.
They really see it that way.
And because of that, Donald Trump can you know, say, we're going to be lenient with hospitality workers and agricultural workers as much as he wants, but if they're going to be funding a bunch more detention centers like Alligator. Alcatraz hasn't taken any money from FEMA so far, which is interesting because DeSantis did it on his own. Now Ice has all of this money and is going to be building more detention facilities, and most of those migrants who came in during the course of the course of
the Biden administration. If they are quote unquote criminal, it's because they crossed the border twice for example, like they got deported and then recrossed, or they didn't go to an asylum or whatever it is. Like that's the that's what hasn't been followed. And for the average American, they're not going to like seeing those people rounded up and put in detention camps, let alone like shoddy ones that
were constructed in a week. But the Trump base both demands it and loves it, and that's a huge political problem.
Wistration.
Here's what I would say. Yes, the Trump based they are not going to complain. They're going to delight in the you know, Alligator Alcatraz and the home depot raids and the you know, whatever Trump does they're going to be on board with. But whatever Trump does, they're going to be on board with. So if he wanted to moderate this policy at this point, he could, and I don't think he'll face any significant backlash from the base. There's no indication that there has ever been any significant
backlash from the bezo or any Trump policy. Yeah, you know, so I don't see him as they are beholden to him. He's not beholden to them at this point. And maybe there was a different point where that was the case, but I mean the same is like I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue. It's true, It's true his bas
is with him. They will justify anything that we talked about the Epstein thing, even though there's been all this online, Oh my god, that Epstein and Trump's going to reveal it and blah blah blah, him turning on a dime and being like, no client list, nothing to see here. They're going to find a way to justify it. So I don't think he's really held hostage by the base.
I think he has I think, well, he's held hostage to they sent that Stephen Miller is very powerful in the administration, and Stephen Miller wants do it.
That's the point is. I think he has outsources to Steven Miller and Steven Miller and other things as well, by the way, and Steven Miller's running it, and he's not really concerning himself too much with the details, and you know feels like, Okay, I ran on mass deportation, and you know the only time he cares is when, yeah,
some rich business owner calls him. I was like my farm workers are getting rounded up, or I don't have my seasonal hospitality workers or whatever, and he'll express some concern, but then you know, days later he'll go back on it, and Steven Miller is still doing his thing.
Yeah.
I think Steven Miller is obsessed with the details of the policy but not at all concerned about the politics of it, because they see this, at least mostly he is as.
A one true administration ideologue.
Yeah.
They see this as the second term Trump doesn't have to run again, and that this is their last chance to.
Walk a lot of this back. That walk what happened back during the Biden administration.
And just as we were talking, Crystal tom Homan did a gaggle at the White House and he said that deporting three thousand people days quote not enough, and said, for those that say three thousand a day is too much, we have to arrest seven thousand every single day for the remainder of this administration, just to catch the ones
Biden released into the nation. And as we were just saying, I'm sure that math actually adds up, because it was a really significant wave of immigration, the most significant since Ellis Island. As David Leonordo had written for The New York Times not too long ago. So yeah, I think those numbers add up. But the only people that really really is going to relish seeing that is the slice of the country that's hardcore, die hard MAGA and the rest of the country. It's not as though they're just
gonna be like whatever. They are going to be revolted by it. And it is going to be a huge shot in the arm for the Democratic Party in the left as they try to mobilize an opposition to Trump two point zero. But Stephen Miller understands that that's a risk that they, from his perspective, have to take for it to have the policy outcome that he and Tom Holman want.
Yeah, the political risks they believe are well worth taking.
Well. And Steven Miller was going to be an anti immigrant sellt regardless of what happened during the Biden administration, how the immigrants came in, because he thinks it should be a white ethno state and he believes in that.
He does.
He believes. I mean, even Trump, I think has said that that Steven Miller only wants white people here, like that is his policy. And you increasingly have people like Charlie Kirk who are out and not admitting like we need to have zero immigration from the what do you call it, the third world, which again is just like
we don't want brown people here. So, you know, the mask is kind of off for some of these guys, and he is in control, like it is his ultimately his policy, and he is running it, you know, in terms of the you know, the political fallout. The last point I'll make on this is it's not just horror
at what is being done to other people. It's also that when you have any federal law enforcement agency with this large of a budget, who are doing things like snatching people off the street because they wrote an op ed, and who are saying they're going to prioritize denaturalizing American citizens, you very quickly realize that this thing does not stay confined even among the immigrant population, even among the nationalized
citizen population. You are constructing a mass surveillance state, a mass police state, and that will have reverberating impacts for everyone. We already have seen American citizens who got picked up and detained for hours and hours because they had the wrong were in the wrong place, and had the wrong level of melanin in their skin and look like they might be an immigrant, and even if they had their papers, they weren't believed or they weren't listened to and were detained.
But the increase in the ICE budget means those things are going to be happening more and war regularly. Palenteer wants to build their big database of absolutely everyone. I mean, this is a mass operation that if Stephen Miller's of the world get their way, Like I said, it's not just going to be about the way it impacts immigrants, although that part is important, as we you know, are all human beings and deserve some level of human rights
and dignity. It's also going to impact everyone in this country. So I think, you know, we're kind of on the cusp of seeing that, and I think that our best, the best hope is just that there's a tremendous level of incompetence and they're not actually able to marshal the level of resources, the flooding of resources that they're being given.
I mean, that's a pretty decent bet, it's.
A pretty that's a strong possibility of that.
We've never seen a deportation effort on the scale now modern history I mean, no, seven thousand a day. For Tom Holman's point, yes, they have a lot of money, but they also only have what three and a half years at this point to do it. It won't be popular with the public, so it's a it's an uphill, uphill climb for them to be sure that much we know.
All right, let's go ahead and get to Jeremy Scalhill on Trump's meeting with Netanyahu this week. So, as we mentioned a couple of times earlier, Benjamin na Yaho is in town this week in DC to meet with Trump once again, so to analyze this and the possibility of any sort of a ceasefire deal, and what's going on in I Run and all sorts of other things. We're lucky to be joined by Jeremy Scahill, of course, co founder of drop site News. Great to see you again, Jeremy.
Thanks for having me back.
So let me just start with that question. What do you think is that the consequence what sort of things are going to be discussed at this meeting with Nan Nahou and Trump.
Well, you know, of course Donald Trump has said this is the final proposal for a Gaza ceasefire, and what we've seen over the past week or so is a process where the Israelis have essentially been negotiating with themselves within netnya, who's power structure, on what positions they want
to stake out. The proposal that Trump put forward was drafted in consultation with the iss with primarily Ron Dermer, who is Netnyahu's lead official dealing with these negotiations, and Hamas for its side, didn't do much in terms of revising the document, but they did zero in on three key things that they wanted changed, and basically one of them is they want a bit stronger language from Donald Trump confirming that he will continue to force Israel to
hold its fire beyond an initial sixty day period so that a permanent ceasefire can be declared. Israel has pushed back very hard on that they want to be able to resume the military assault on Gaza after two months if Netanyahu decides that's what he wants to do. The second is that they wanted to have a reversion to the original ceasefire agreements map positions for Israeli forces to
withdraw from Gaza. Net Yahoo has been saying that he wants to stay in the South of Gaza, that they want to create a zone along the Egypt border and try to force all of the Palestinians, two million plus Palestinians into this small sliver of the Gaza Strip. And then presumably they think that they would then fight a guerrilla war against HAMAS fighters in the rest of the
Gaza Strip. And then the final term that Hamas wanted changed had to do, and this is the one that I'm told this morning by Hamas officials is most central right now in the negotiations.
Hamas wants unrestricted.
Aid to flow into Gaza, and they don't want this deadly aid scheme cynically known as the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation to be in any way involved with the distribution of aid. So you have a delegation right now that net Nyaho grudgingly sent to Doha, Qatar, and I was told by a Hamas official this morning there's been absolutely zero progress
in those talks. Another Palestinian close to the negotiations said that if net Nyahu insists on Israel controlling the aid, that it could be a deal breaker, but all parties involved, including Hamas, know that it's irrelevant. What's happening right now in Doha all that matters is what happens between net Yahu and Trump. If Trump decides he wants a deal, he's the only person in the world that can force net and Yahoo to accept terms that he doesn't want to accept.
Yeah, as it's always been.
Yeah, and you broke this down in your drop site report, which folcsre saw up on the screen and can read and go into great depth and detail on Jeremy. So could you also flesh out for us what some of that stronger language might look like? Because I think when I hear that, at least I think stronger language. But what is like does a stronger language still leave wiggle room for netsan Yahoo? And would that be part of something that Trump sort of comes to the table and says,
you've got to have the stronger language. Will agree to the stronger language. But wink wink, that's a stronger language. It's language at the end of the day. So can you tell us a little bit more about what Hamas is looking for when it comes to the language.
I mean, this is a really important question.
I think it bears repeating that Israel has constantly violated ceasefire agreements, including the agreement that Donald Trump and Joe Biden pushed through that original January agreement wouldn't have happened without Donald Trump and Steve Whitkoff, and Israel killed more
than one hundred and sixty Palestinians during the ceasefire. Then it unilaterally abandoned it and resumed the military assault on Gaza on March eighteenth, and so as the discussions have happened emily over the past couple of months since that ceasefire was blown up. Hamas has been pushing US mediators and there have been some direct talks between the United States and Hamas, something that Joe Biden wouldn't do. Trump
has done. And during those talks, the Palestinians have said, you know, we hear what Donald Trump says that he wants to end this war, and he wants it to be definitively ended, but we need to have Israel bound to that agreement. And so, you know, it may seem like it's splitting hairs, but what Hamas wants is for very clear language that states that the United States, Egypt,
and Kutar. Egypt and Kutar are the regional mediators dealing with this ceasefire negotiation process that they want them to guarantee that while Hamas and Is negotiate a final resolution to the Gaza War, that the terms of the sixty day Initial Truth are going to apply, meaning Israel will not put a blockade on AID and meaning that Israel
is not going to violate the ceasefire. Hamas knows that Israel will likely violate any agreement that it signs, So they're sort of struggling to find what is the best that we can get in this situation, and they believe that by having Trump publicly state that he is going to keep Israel in check because he wants a permanent end to the war. Now, we can talk about Trump's agenda and what he wants to see happen as a result of it, but there are indications that Trump actually
does want this resolve. He also likely wants to expand the so called Abraham Accords. He may want to make a deal with the decrepit, corrupt, unpopular leader of the Palestinian authority. Whatever happens next, Hamas understands that it really only matters what Donald Trump wants and is willing to
do right now. So that's why you see what appear to be kind of minor language changes actually meaning something tabas And look, if you put the two versions next to each other, there is a big difference because they took out hedge language, they took out vague phrases like if necessary, They remove just Egypt and Kutar being the guaranters of that, and reinserted the United States. It's possible that Trump is going to grant some concessions on this.
The bigger issue really is going to be where do is Raeli troops withdraw to if a ceasefire is signed, because not Yahu's saying they're going to remain there no matter what. And then this other issue of the AID. I mean, it's an unspeakable situation right now in Gaza, and I'm told that that is actually the main issue that is being debated and discussed right now.
So let's actually skip forward to talk more about that AID situation, the quote unquote Gaza Humanitarian Foundation that has been running these AID traps and massacre and you know, corresponding massacres. There's an interview recently with the head of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Now this is the guy who replaced the original guy who stepped away after saying I don't think that this is the good idea anymore. This
is E three guys. Let's go ahead and play a little bit of this interview and then I want to get Jerry's reaction. On the other side.
We have spoken to doctors, British doctors, Western doctors, eyewitnesses on the scene who tell us that almost every day they are coming under fire from Israeli forces trying to get to the aid point. Just before and as they leave, they are being fired on. What are you doing to ensure their safety.
I don't think anybody knows entirely what's happened in the Gaza strip from from our from our point of view, based upon our experience on the ground, we don't see the impenence of this degree of of of of mass casualties directly related to the people seeking seeking aid because.
You have absolutely zero way of verifying who's taken that aid.
While we can't verify that every individual pack of you know, a flower, for instance, isn't somehow ending up in someplace that it wasn't intended, what we can absolutely verify is that there is no mass version issue.
Based on what Because you're not verifying the people who collect the food, there is no system. Their names are not anywhere, there's no id. And also we have filmed your food being sold at astronomical prices on the black market.
I just have this question for you, Deborah, do you have anything positive to say whatsoever about what we're doing. We've made a decision, and the decision is that it's worth operating in a war zone, with all the complexity and all the risk, as deadly as it is, because Gazans deserve.
Food and that is laudable.
So my challenge to you is take us in. Let me come and see it for myself and report the good and the bad. Because if there is nothing to hide, and this process is exactly how you're explaining and you're saying it's a good, then let us film it be transparent.
That's not a decision I could. I could make a loan. I mean, there are lots of different aspects of that, including the diversion of resources solely dedicated to the people of Gaza. I would like to see from a few people in the in the in the in the press, a little less cynicism.
Little less cynicism from us. Jeremy. So that was Reverend Johnny Moore, who is an evangelical leader and is now the new head of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, saying there are no mass casualty events. But also you can't come and see and verify for yourself.
Yeah, I mean a couple of things.
First of all, we have to understand this not as an independent entity, but as an agent of the Israeli state. That's how Netanyahu and other Israeli officials have spoken about it, and mainstream major news organist organizations including NPR, the BBC, the Washington Post have recently done expose a's where American mercenaries who went to Gaza as part of this aid scam actually described the lethal actions of their own operatives.
We have Palestinians that have filmed the aftermath of these shootings. We have doctors, including international doctors in Gaza, that have described the sorts of wounds and fatal wounds that they have treated in the aftermath of people desperately trying to go and get what is actually a pittance of aid. While this clip sort of went viral and it was sort of portrayed as a gotcha moment, the journalists actually engaged in what I think is a bit of journalistic malpractice.
She started questioning him about Hamas diverting the AID. Senior US officials, including the head humanitarian officer from the biden Era, have said that there's no evidence of any significant theft of AID by Hamas. But just this morning and over the past few days, Yaser Abu Shabab, who is the head of an Israeli and Palestinian authority backed militia in Gaza, has openly said in Hebrew language media interviews that his forces have stolen aid to then just attributed to people
that they want to give it to. So you know, there, yes, there were really important things that came out of that interview, but also the journalist wasted so much time in her questioning based on an entirely false premise. The reality is, and I don't think anyone can dispute this, Israel has used food as a weapon of war, and the Israeli Cabinet over the weekend voted to intensify the use of
food as a weapon of war. And they're rejecting putting in charge a neutral, independent body that had a very effective system for distributing AID and it was not being stolen by Hamas.
That's just the fact.
So Jeremy have to get your take on this Wall Street Journal piece from Elliott Kaufman that published over the last couple of days.
This is E two. We can put it up on the screen.
I mean, just fascinating for a lot of reasons, especially from somebody who follows this, even just as a student of the media coverage like yourself.
Jeremy.
So, a new Palatinian offer for peace with Israel. Hebron sheikhs proposed to leave the Palastini authority join the Abraham Accords. The reaction to this piece from people in the region, Jeremy was really fascinating. Could you tell us, first of all, what you make of the journal dropping the story a couple of days before in nsa Yah Who's visit, and basically some of the reaction that has poured out since it was published.
I mean, throughout the history of Israel's occupation, you've always had small clusters of Palestinians that have sort of appeared to be more pro Israeli or maybe for their own reasons, want to try to cut a deal. I mean, the reality is, this is a tiny fraction of the Palestinian population that is making this offer, and it's not even clear that they speak for the entire community of Hebron.
You know, often when these stories come up that appear to be presenting an alternative to established Palestinian political figures or movements that are about Palestinian liberation, they get an enormous amount of attention in the West. The reality is that this is basically an story on the ground in Palestine, people are concerned about the genocide and Gaza, and they're concerned about the largest force displacement campaign in the occupied
West Bank since nineteen sixty seven. Fifteen members of Netnyahu's party, the Li Coud Party, over the weekend wrote a letter to Netnaho's saying, now is the time to seize to formally annex the entire territory of the occupied West Bank. So, you know, these kinds of stories may be appealing to an op ed writer in the Wall Street Journal, or sort of fun for coffee talk among people that delude themselves into believing that somehow you can co opt the
Palestinian liberation struggle. But at the end of the day, the vast majority of Palestinians in poll after poll support the idea that they needed independent homeland, that it needs to be a unified one that connects both Gaza, the occupied West Bank, and Jerusalem.
So, you know, I think that we have to look at this through.
The lens of who's really promoting this story, because it really we're talking about a teeny tiny fraction of the Palestinian population that is advocating for this solution.
Lastly, Jeremy, just to circle back to the meeting today with Trump and Matnahoo, they'll obviously also be discussing Iran. Tucker Carlson just dropped his interview with the President of Iran. I haven't had a chance to watch it, but I'm seeing some of the clips floating around. Apparently he got asked about the supposed Iranian sleeper cells in the US. He denies that and says this is just being used
basically to scare Americans. He also apparently revealed claimed that Israel had tried to assassinate him, which I don't think would be a big surprise to anyone. In any case, what is your understanding of what Israel's interest is with regard to Iran, what they would like to do and what we would like to what they would like us to do on their behalf, and what Trump Himself's orientation towards Iran is at this point.
Well, I mean, I think it's pretty clear that Netanyahu wants full scale regime change in Iran, and you know, to his credit, even though there was a lot of speculation that Trump was going to go forward and actually you know, assassinate the Supreme Leader Ayatola Famani and you know, bankroll and arm Israel as it actually enacted regime change in Iran, it doesn't seem to be as of now the direction that the United States wants to go in. But I think it's very likely that we will again
see bombing of Iran. Whether it's only Israel or Israel in the United States remains to be seen. But you know, Iran time and again has defied people's declarations that the end of the government is just on the horizon. And you know, it really speaks to the bankrupt nature of the political media in the United States that it's left to Tucker Carlson to do interviews not just with the president of Iran, but with other figures that the United
States has designated as official enemies. Anytime you get to hear the perspective of the people on the other side of American missiles. It helps to inform a society that purports to be democratic, So we should have more hearing from people that live on the other side of American missiles. And at the end of the day, whether you're a conservative or a liberal, or you're a political radical of some sort, more information means a better ability to make decisions.
And I think there is a fundamental question that shouldn't only belong to the MAGA movement, and that is what is fundamentally in the US interest. I would argue that none of these wars are in the US interest, and I know that there's a minority section of Trump world that also, for their own reasons, believe that same thing.
We can't continue this bankrupt, neo con view of the world that the United States can be a hammer in search of nails, and we certainly shouldn't be doing Israel's agenda because what Netanyahu wants, and clearly he has a lot of support for this in Israel, is to continue
setting that region on fire. What may seem to be tactical victories right now in the short term could well produce a generation of people that seek to oppose the United States and Israel, that are far more radical than any of the forces that we now see in the region.
It's it's born of an idea called blowback.
And I think that, you know, Netanyahu can try to do his victory dance, being you know, the only leader that's been invited three times to see Trump. But Americans should really be asking, and I see increasingly conservatives asking this question. Major media figures in the conservative ecospace, you know, ecosystem are asking these questions. And I think it's important. Why is the United States doing the bidding of this
rogue regime in Israel. That's a serious question that should be on the table right now for all Americans.
Jeremie Skahill Well said, is always and great to see, so thank you so much for your reporting.
Thank you both.
All right, guys, that does it for us here today. I will be back for Breaking Points tomorrow and then we'll have actually Sager and for Emily on Wednesday and whatever. For sure, Yeah, absolutely, we'll just keep you guys guessing out there. Thank you guys again so much for your support. We're going to go ahead and do that. AMA Live now for premium subscribers. If you are not a premium subscriber,
you can become one at breakingpoints dot com. In any case, if you guys have a great day and I will see you back here tomorrow.