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In twenty sixteen, everybody told Joe Biden to step down. Everybody was sure he was two olds. Same people are the same points in twenty twenty. Same people are making the same points now. But the democratic process and the deliberative process that chows Joe Biden is the process that we have.
It is how American democracy works.
The parties choose candidates, and then the nation choose between them.
It's not just Joe Biden. Us in mental decline if we make it our candidate. The whole parties in mental decline if we select Joe Biden as our strongest candidate. I'm not willing to insult the Democratic Party like that.
All right, welcome to counterpoints, Friday, Ryan. We've got some great, great guests today on the biggest topic I would argue in the world right now, which is the future of the American presidency and the presidency himself.
Who do we have?
So we're going to be joined by Dmitri Melhorn on the one hand, is a democratic kind of organizer and mega donor who has been making the strident case in defense of Joe Biden as the best Democrat to take on Donald Trump to this day in the general election. And we'll also be talking with Jenk Yuger, founder of TYT, a man who probably needs no introduction to our audience. So let's bring in Jenk and Dimitri. Both of you, guys, Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
Thanks thank you for having us. I should say I'm not a major donor. I'm just a nice donor. I'm like a bundler type. It's my colleagues who are the major donors right there.
You're pretty generous in your own right.
I'm generous, but I'm not mega.
Right So, and for people who are not familiar with the kind of the world of democratic donor politics, Dimitri kind of represents Reid Hoffman and some other like major donors. Read Hoff and the LinkedIn billionaire who would qualify as as mega donor. Yeah, and we're excited to have you, Dimitri over in the independent media space here, hoping to see more of you here. So let let's let's start with you, Dmitri. You and I spoke a couple of days ago last weekend about the state of the race.
It looked at that point like Biden was done for, like at least from the conventional wisdom in Washington. But you were not persuaded by that, and you said, look, you guys are overestimating your ability to change the reality here. And the reality here is that Joe Biden feels like he's still the best candidate.
He's going to stay in.
Where are you today and has anything changed about your perspectives since then when it comes to Biden's ability to win the general election?
Yeah, and thank you, Ryan, thank you for having me a lot of times. The question comes down to whether President Biden can do the job for four more years, and that's what it comes down to. But the question that I'm focused on is what is the most likely way to prevent President Trump from having a second term, and to prevent President Trump from having a second term from being elected, you need someone to be able to win the nomination of the Democratic Party and also beat
Donald Trump in a general election. And for the last five years, there's only been one Democrat who's been any work books and only one problem who's been anywhere close to getting their nominations back. And so we've known for kind of five years that this was the most likely rematch, and we knew that both men would have some increasing challenges compared to last time. You know, Biden and Trump, either of them is the same man they were four
years ago. And so the question is did that debate fundamentally alter Biden's electability more than the things that we've learned about Trump and keep learning about Trump, like his criminality and so over it.
So that is a real question. It's a fair question.
But immediately after the debate, the swing voters seem to have not moved very much. The polls in each of the three closest battleground states have moved three points maybe more likely too, if you look at the weighted averages for pole weight and right now Biden is still tied in electoral votes represent sorry ahead in electoral votes representing two hundred and fifty one electoral votes, and he's basically tied within the margin of error in states representing another
sixty electoral votes. So the question is who's better to win and whose decision is it? And if it's Joe Biden's decision, which it is, he won the nomination, then the burden of proof is not.
Just to prove to me.
You have to prove it to the standards of Joe Biden, who's heard these arguments in sixteen and agreed with them, and in twenty and disagreed with them. And he was always right age in those two elections, and everybody else was wrong in those two elections.
So I think we should have some humility here.
And jenk, how would you prove it to Dimitri?
Yeah? Easy on many many fronts. So Number one, he's at thirty six percent approval rating. No income in ever in American history, not just president but at the federal level has ever won when they're in the thirties in an election year. Number two, he was at plus nine at this point in the election in twenty twenty. Now
he's in a best case scenario minus three. That's twelve points to make up his approval rating last time when he won and barely won, the electoral college was at fifty two points, so his sixteen points behind an approval rating. These are all totally unrecoverable. They would be the most It would be the most unprecedented political comeback in American history by a lot, and a guy in mental decline is going to pull that off. He's shown absolutely no
ability to pull that off. In fact, I said that he would lose non swing states months ago, and here we are. He's now losing three non swing states. Now New Jersey and New York are in play. So, guys, what is not in dispute is that Donald Trump's a terrible, terrible guy, and we're both trying to make sure that he doesn't win reelection. We just have a very significant difference of opinion on what is the best way to make sure Donald Trump doesn't win. And with Joe Biden,
it's a lock. He's not going to pull off the greatest political miracle in American history. Okay, So those are all the numbers, and I can give you underlying numbers. He's lost latinos, he's lost the youth vote, He's lost almost everything. Right, So the idea that it's close is ridiculous. He has a near zero percent chance of winning. So that's why I've been on a war path for nine months because I'm like, how could you guys not see it? But all of that is a lead up to me
asking Dmitri. Is Joe Biden in mental decline?
Yeah? He is in physical degogment. He's physical line.
Yeah.
And the reason and the reason the reason that I know that is because emotionally, when I saw that debate, I thought he was a mental decline. So emotionally, when I saw the first ten minutes of that debate, I always wear the House democraduct caucuses as well, I engaged in a remote medical diagnosis, even though I am totally unqualified, because I've seen people aging and I was worried that
it was mental decline. So I followed up and found out that from everybody, including world class brain experts that we've hired to assess both Biden and from for years, that this is consistent with motor decline. And the best evidence of whether there's mental decline is the job that he.
Is currently doing.
And the job that he is currently doing, we still today Joe Biden gets pulled in to be the closer in bipartisan negotiations. And we know from Kevin McCarthy's a Mission against interest that when he does that, he closes the deal and rolls them. We know that today this month, he has pulled into international negotiatations to close the deal. Our allies want him as the closer personally. That's why
he's working fourteen hour days in war zones. I remember when I was an associate in McKinsey and Company twenty years ago, and I worked a ton of hours he's working. I would have moments like that too, And so the question is is it age or ability?
And the best evidence about whether it's.
Ability is what kind of a job he's doing as president right now and as president and goes he's pretty good.
No. The other thing about Gitzy, No, Dimitri, Listen. First of all, I think it's the most obvious thing in the world. He's in mental decline. The great majority of Americans agree with me, and he himself admits he can't go past eight o'clock at night. That's not a great job of president. Sorry, it isn't. He he can't go to the private meetings with the G seven leaders because he's too tired, he himself says all the time. Besides,
I don't even know what he's saying. He says he's the first black woman to serve with a black president, and that's after he had the questions handed to him written out. These are the questions. All you have to do is answer them. We have to prove that you're not in mental decline. And he says, I'm the first black woman. Okay, So anyways, but Dimitri, oh, you've met Joe Biden over the decades, right, I mean I have, yeah, and so, and he's a disaster right now. He's an
absolute disaster right now. But Dmitri, doesn't really matter whether I agree or or what I think or what you think. What I'm obsessed with is what do the American voters think? And that jury's in. You know, most of the poles have it around seventy two. One outlier had it at eighty percent. But even if you take the lower number, seventy two percent of Americans think that he is not
mentally healthy enough to serve. So we're going to run a guy that, at a minimum seven out of ten Americans think his brain is not functioning and he needs to be president. The hardest job for another four years. The minute we start chanting four more years, we lose the election. Demetri, how can you like, how do you put up a candidate this seventy two percent of Americans say his brain isn't working. Yeah.
So, so I do agree with your main point, Zank, which is that the real question is what voters will think. And I agree with you that the voters have rendered a remote diagnosis of Joe Biden that is consistent with your impression and not with the impression that I've gathered from the people I've consulted.
So I agree with all of that.
The thing that I think when you get to the data about the swing voters, what you are saying is that you would still vote for Biden over Trump, but you don't think they will. And when you cite all these numbers about how badly Biden is doing, that is all just objective, like Biden versus Biden. And the other thing that is unprecedented that we've never had before is running against a convicted felon who launched an insurrection and
is now attacking juris. And so the question is not is Biden objectively do people like or want him as the nominee. My whole life, the American public has been dissatisfied with the person who the may parties have put forth for them to choose. It's worse now, but that is not the question. The question is the two way
and the two way. All of the models that I've seen, from the most anti Biden model, which is Nate Silver's, to the most pro Biden model, which is five thirty eight, to all the betting markets, they all put this race within the range of Biden having a thirty percent to fifty percent chance. Five thirty eight says it's fifty to fifty.
They could be wrong, you could be right. I'm just saying that all of the aggregators and all of the models looking at the poles disagree with you that his odds of winning or zero, and the swing voters who you are sure will not vote for Biden when they see Biden and Trump side by side, it's the same choice as last time, except both men have new liabilities.
Biden has shown something that people generally perceive to be a performance related agent agent, even though I disagree, and also Trump has acquired his relationship He's bragged about Rode Wade's allied himself with rural theocrats. He is a If anything, I believe that Donald Trump has revealed himself to be more dangerous than last time, whereas the evidence that Joe Biden can be a great president is stronger than last
time because he's been one. So I think the two way is the question, and thus far the two way does not appear to be moving the way you seem certain it will move.
Yeah, Jamie Jake, what do you make of this point? By the way, it's I was just checking. It's very odd. We were looking at this earlier on Wednesday. Five point thirty eight does say fifty two forty eighth for Trump right now? Fifty two percent chance that Trump win forty percent. I think Biden is probably clinging to that. I think Dmitri's clinging to that. But I'm curious how you would respond to five thirty eight assessment that this is sort of a toss up.
So look, five thirty eight is that that's nuts? I bet them any amount of money that they're like off by a landslide. I mean, is that is a preposterous thing to say. I mean, fifty two forty eight on which planet be God? Guys. Seven to eight out of ten Americans think his brain is not working. They're not going to vote for him. Now, that doesn't mean Blue Maga isn't going to vote for him. Blue Maga is
gonna vote for him no matter what. And when it comes down to election day, you know, we're all gonna have to make a super tough decision, okay, because Trump's terrible. Like you mentioned the convictions, I know, but that's already baked in. That's already baked in. It isn't moving anyone. Guys. Whenever we're talking about the election, this again, I agree with Dimitri ha something we have to be talking about the swing voters, the independent voters. It doesn't matter what
we think we hate Trump. If it was just us voting, it'd be a landslide for Biden. Okay, the other side hates Biden. Forget Blue Maga and Red Maga. The middle is what matters. And the middle thinks that Joe Biden's brain isn't working, they're not gonna elect them for another four years and so. And the other problem, Dimitri is, it isn't just hey Biden versus Trump. Why not have a candidate that would be crushing Trump because Trump has
those liabilities no matter what. So why are we putting up a guy that has at least the same amount of liabilities. Imagine a ticket like Andy Kasheer and Wesmore, two young, dynamic, successful Democratic governors. One guy won twice in Kentucky. The other guy is this dynamic, great speaker who's the governor of Maryland. Oh my god, imagine how excited Democrats would be if they have that ticket. We
would crush Trump. Why do we want to? I mean, at a bare minimum risk losing, in my opinion, guarantee losing, and I don't like there's no planet where a guy at thirty six percent has a forty eight percent chance of winning, a guy at thirty six percent and incumbent has a zero percent chance of winning. It's literally never ever,
ever happened before. And so you're saying that Biden is as great a politician as AOC was in her against Joe Browley, and way better than that, way more dynamic than that, because it takes an AOC like miracle to win at this point, So why don't we pick someone better? What is wrong with us? Why do we want to pick our worst candidate? Instead of our best candidate. This is a no brainer as long as you're not a mental to Clark, what is wrong with us?
Nothing?
You guys have the exact emotional reaction that I had when Trump came down the escalator, which is panic and outrage that this is going to happen, And when the beginning of the debate happened, I was feeling the same set of emotions. However, we all have to check those emotions against objective realities. So there's two major claims that Jank made that I think are objectively false. One is that the negatives for Biden are new to swing voters
and the negatives for Trump are baked in. That is something that we believe because we talk about them all the time. The observation that I have made of swing voters and their pole movement since the debate.
Suggests that actually the opposite is true.
The truly marginal voters who you know, it's the very few people who at this point with these two men, are still not sure which way they're going to go or whether they're going to vote. That's an unusual crowd, and those people are bathed in the warm glow of Fox News and TikTok, and they already believe that Donald Trump. They already believe that Joe Biden is as bad as the first ten minutes of debate all the time.
They already believe that.
And they don't know anything about Donald Trump's weaknesses because the maga media pundits, you know, have closed ranks in matching outfits around around his trial. The second thing that I think is objectively false is that someone else can easily beat Trump. And I appreciate the instinct, I certainly wish that were the case. But if you look around the world, young and talented and handsome politicians like Justin Trudeau and a Memol Macron actually have lower approval ratings
than Joe Biden. And it's true, they just do. And if you look at all the people who Trump has flattened in his run, all of them look a lot like the Andy Basher Wes Moore hypothetical, like truly Aronda Santis, a Hillary Clinton, a Jeb Bush, and Marco Rubius. Surely those kinds of people can beat someone like Trump, and it turns out they can't. So I think we have to just be honest and recognize that, regardless of our take on it. There is something about Joe Biden that
prevents Donald Trump from running his preferred plays. His preferred plays are the system is irredeemably corrupt. The people in it are irredeemably corrupt. And the reason it's important that you stop their corruption is because they're attacking Christianity, and they're attacking white people, and they're attacking men and their leftist radicals and all of those things. Donald Trump and his movement choke on trying to make that happen with Biden.
Donald Trump got impeached to try to make people think that Joe Biden was corrupt, and they've spent so much energy it doesn't work. I think we just have to recognize in this environment, as much as I have imagined, you know, Wes Moore and Gretcha Whitmer and Josh Shapiro and Aye Sheer, the bench is great, but we will have four months. If Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, if the Herris, if the Biden Haars ticket were to release
their deligates right now, there would be a scramble. And during that scramble, the other side would be demonizing the Shehear and more whoever we put up and if you didn't like what happened to John Carrey in two thousand and four, do not watch as your dream Canada in the future gets destroyed as they're being introduced to the American public.
Jenk, I want to throw that back to you with also the question about whether this polling dip that we've seen is potentially temporary. If let's just take the fantasy of democratic elites right now, Joe Biden does a great speech of the White House, I should say, Joe Biden does a great speech at NATO. He has this great press conference. You know, he just nails it, knocks it
out of the park. The dust kind of settles. People see it's not as bad as maybe the debate made it look, and the polling recovers is there a possibility of that? And then also respond to Dimitri's point about the other candidates as well.
All right, let me one seven at the time here. So first, there is no chance to recover. He's losing New Jersey. We're having a fantasy conversation over here. He's losing New Jersey, and he's an obvious mental decline. He's not going to even Democrats acknowledge there's no way in the world he makes it four years. So we're asking the country to vote for a guy that we all know isn't even going to make it four years. In terms of being mentally healthy, that's nuts. That's totally nuts.
So in terms of the ability to make a comeback. I wrote all the way back in like two thousand and six about how Tim Russer was wrong on Meet the Press about his narrative of comeback for George W. Bush. I'm like, you just made that up. This brother doesn't have a narrative of comeback in him. He's not capable of it. He's not smart enough. And all that George Bush did from two thousand and six to two thousand and eight was slide in the polls because he was
a disaster, and we were right about that. People. I want to wish a narrative of comeback into reality. Sometimes. Joe Biden is not like George W. Bush. He was a perfectly competent person for most of his career, whether I agreed with him or disagreed with him on policies and those great deals that he Kevin McCarthy brags about. Of course, he brags about it. Joe Biden, his entire career has been handing Republicans every deal they ever wanted.
His idea of a compromises you get ninety five percent, I get five percent. But that's my policy difference with him. But at least he was sharp and he got those things done. That's not his issue now. His issue is massive, obvious, blatant mental decline, Let alone the fact that he thinks that his uncle was eaten by cannibals. He's always had a problem with singing to the truth. So this is not the If you think this is the best candidate
that the Democrats have, you are greatly insulting the Democratic Party. No, the Democrats have tons and tons of way better candidates, and look to me, true, I get it. It's not like there's a fantasy world where you put up a sheer, more wit or whoever it is, and the Republicans are like, you know what, We're just not going to run against them. Of course, they're going to try to smear them, of course, and will that have some degree of effect. Of course. Will it be a little bit of risk, of course,
But the much greater risk is losing New Jersey. The much greater list risk is not just a loss to retreat, but a landslide where Donald Trump gets to walk out there after the election and say I just want all of Congress and I just want to landslide victory past the swing states that nobody thought I could do. That means I have a mandate to do whatever I want, and that is definitely the direction that we're heading. Last quick thing on Trudeau and Mike Crohn. No, when they
were young and energetic and new, they won. They're losing now because they're the incumbents. People hate incumbents all across the world. People want change because we live under corporate rule and they know it in their gut. So this is divorced from Biden's particular situation, but that's another giant anchor that is dragging him down. Everything that goes wrong in the country is blamed on the incumbent. It's an easy pickings for the Republicans to attack, attack, attack, Vasher
and Moore and Whitmer and Shapiro. They don't have those problems, so what are they going to attack them on? The problems of Kentucky. First of all, Kentucky's doing great under a democratic governor, so the risk is infinitely higher By sticking with Joe Biden than it is with coming with a dynamic new team that also, by the way, has the advantage of two more advantages. One is, again Dmitri's not totally wrong about a lot of Biden's problems are also baked in. A lot of people thought his brain
was melting earlier. That's not a great thing. That's not a thing to bring it. And so Basher or whoever it is, would not come in with those baked in problems. They wouldn't have the incumbency problem, and they wouldn't start out in a hold, and it would start in the whole country. Dmitri, this entire election has been begging for
another candidate. They don't want these two. Imagine if by a miracle, the Democrats gave them what they wanted at different Kennedy as someone who was young and successful and could obliterate Donald Trump in a debate, put me against Donald Trump and in debate and wanted me humiliate him. Instead we had a guy who lost to him. Why are we doing this to ourselves? Why not pick someone better?
And Dimitria to his point real quickly about New Jersey in the spring, that we don't have many polls, and not many high quality. In the spring, Biden New Jersey was up about five six points, with Kennedy you know, pulling, you know, high single digits.
There was a poll in late.
June that has Trump forty one, Biden forty rfk Junior at seven percent. So respond to anything else Jenks said, But I just want to say, like that, So that is the Jersey pull. How nervous does it make you to be talking about New Jersey in July of twenty twenty.
More so, there are many things.
Obviously, jenk and I have been both in our own ways, trying to resist this fascism, this fascist movement, and so this is the first time we really talked about and I think there's a number of things about which we disagree. Probably the easiest thing to do, rather than dealing with all of it, is just to quickly say two things.
And then get to the main point. Number one. I actually don't worry about New Jersey.
I agree with Jaank that a landslide win would be bad, but I also think a narrow wind would be bad. I think if the United States of America hands power to that movement, the Trump movement, with all of its criminality and all of the Project twenty twenty five stuff. We're not getting it back as the Supreme Court in
Congress do not have an army and Trump will. So my version of this is as bad as it is to lose the landslide, just losing to that man is equally bad in terms of the issue about replacing a Biden with someone else, you know, I mean, Rishi Sunac replaced Liz Trust and it didn't matter. The incumbent's still the incumbent, and a replacement doesn't work. But the main point is, let's just for arguments, say stipulate that everything Jank peers is true.
Let's assume that Joe Biden is very very.
Much you know, he's like Yoda on his deathbed in Return of the Jedi, you know, you know, sometimes loosen, sometimes not.
Just assume that.
Okay, if he gets a call at three am and he's disoriented like that in your world, he will pull together a group of people and they will make a decision.
If Donald Trump.
Gets a call at three am in twenty twenty seven, the downside risks are quite high.
He could launch a nuclear strike.
Literally, I mean that is more than within the realm of possibility, and America can see the difference.
They can see the.
Difference between in return of the Jedi Java, the Hut was quite vigorous, and people would choose Yoda. So that's the point is is even if you are right, and by the way, the most bearish model on Biden's odds is the New Silver Report and percent. So even if I concede that the fifty percent number is wrong and the betting markets are wrong, it's forty percent and you're right, it's still thirty percent. And that's what we're fighting for.
We have to get to I think one of the I mean it, maybe Ryan and I agree on this. I think the most important question here, which we address a little bit of beginning, the difference between mental and physical decline and whether Biden is in physical decline. And we do have a clip mashup that I want to get you both to respond to. Here, let's roll this next element. This is Biden with George Dephanopolis and in some other places.
Let's watch, nobody said anything except me and the post out there and the local you know race. You know, he said I did nothing to stop Prussia's invasion of Ukraine. The fact she said, I think I encouraged Russia from going I encourage I think he encouraged Russia going in. I mean re reading from the list of lives. First of all, he was made up, oh, suckers and losers. I was with called Americans in the cemetery of World War One suckers and losers. And so this guy's gonna
have to start and answer the what he did. I'm not letting.
And if you stay in and Trump is elected and everything you're warning about comes to pass, how will you feel in January?
I'll feel as long as I gave it my all and I did the goodest jobs I know I can do.
That's what this is about.
So Demetri. NBC hosted a neurologist named doctor Tom Pitt who you may have seen this, who said that he would fail someone or someone would be failed in medical school if they didn't diagnose a person displaying those symptoms with Parkinsonian whatever it was, Ryan Parkinson's or this variation of Parkinson's.
None of us are trying to get our medical degree.
Yeah, thank goodness, that would be bad for everyone. But you're maintaining dimitri that what we see from Joe Biden reflects physical decline but not mental decline.
Yeah.
So the George, so a couple of things. One you might want, I mean, the whole point of why this is an important conversation from my perspective and why we're out there so much is you can do that mashup reel for Donald Trump and it's way scarier, right, you know, And if you do, there are plenty of psychologists who.
Have jeopardized their careers by remotely.
Observing that Donald Trump is a dangerous man who cannot distinguish truth from reality and whose mind is broken. In the George Stephanopolis interview, what are some of the other things that Biden said? Biden repeatedly insisted that it was his decision, his problem, his fault, that the debate went
poorly all around. People were urging him to broke staffers under the bus for debate prep, and his top priority in this limited period of time to talk to George Seth Knopolis that he insisted on several times, was to make sure everybody knew the bucks stopped with him. That is why he is a good president. That is why he builds a good team. That is why people trust him. That is why international leaders trust him. That is still
true and Donald Trump. Joe Biden took responsibility in that Stephanoppolis interview, that one Stephanopolis interview, more than Donald Trump has his entire life. So the comparison, you know, I've had grandfathers and family members who have had Parkinson's and have had Alzheimer's as strong as an ox, and there are differences. And what Biden showed in that interview with Stephanopolis as well as in his interview with Morning Joe
is the kind of rule that you get. And people are criticizing him for reading off of a list, reading notes. I have notes right now. Presidents should be using notes when they're presidenting, I think, and they're upset with him for having actually the only psychologically healthy response to this terrible moment, which is to say, Donald Trump could be president and I can only do my best. That's the psychologically healthy responsibi. And so in all of these things, I'm.
Like, oh, Bike is right.
So Jank, Let's say that Biden does end up stepping aside. And in that hypothetical, there are a lot of Democrats who are saying that, Okay, it's Kamala's and we're all going to rally behind Kamala jank Where are you on that and what do you think Democrats should do in order to get a new nominee if Biden does drop out and get Dmitri's take on that as well.
Yeah, so I'm going to answer that in one second. I just got to mention a couple of things that were mentioned earlier. So first of all, I think Biden
is the goodest candidate. When you're trying to prove that you're the best candidate, and you're saying you're the goodest candidate, come on, brother, George Stephanopvlis said today, Yeah, after the interview, I don't think you could make it another four years, which goes to the three Am point that you made, Dmitri, which actually is a point that one of our members on Young Turks made which I thought was so smart. You get the call three am, you say, hey, Trump
would be worse. I get it, brother, That's why we're all working over time to try to defeat him. And Biden always says, don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative. But the alternative isn't just Trump. The alternative is a better Democratic candidate, and so when next three am call comes in, you're saying the administrative state would handle it. But then we're putting up the
administrative state as our candidate. And what are we going to do pull a fine sign and wheel him around for four years and pretend he's president when the administrative state is the president. And then and then we're saying we're trying to protect democracy. That makes a mockery out of democracy. We cannot go in that direction. We have to be the defenders of democracy. We have to be
the defenders of truth. And with Joe Biden, we're in a massive hole on both lying because he's in my opinion and in the opinion of seventy two percent of Americas, clearly lying about his mental condition. And you know, we want stability and someone to make the right decisions. Here we go again, right, And so it's these are two giant problems that other Democrats wouldn't have. So now that goes to Ryan's question.
Well before we go to Kamla, because I think that's a really important point that I want to hear. Dmitri's response to that is that is my read here that democrats are sacrificing all of their credibility when they say that democracy is on the line, and then and then
also saying, actually the president's kind of overrated. Whoever the president is, just the administrative state is going to run it or by saying something that people don't believe with their own eyes and that they don't have the credibility
to lose. So how concerned are you about about Jenk's point there that if Democrats are running on the idea that if actually things will be fine, there's a whole state, there's a whole apparatus of advisors around him, that that undermines democrats credibility with voters when they go to say, we're here running to defend democracy.
So there's two things about that, Ryan.
One is, remember I was stipulating, let's assume that Sayk and the seventy two million Americans are right, and let's assume all that. Even then the team around Biden and the instincts of Biden, the instincts to take personal accountability, if you guys are right, lost it.
Then he even has lost instinct, his instincts sort of hit personal accountability. That's significant.
The broader point, however, is that actually I don't agree with these points I don't agree, Like it is true that you know, for a long time humans looked up at the sun and saw that at circled bure and we saw it with their own eyes, and of course any alternative was silly. And then and then we're like, oh right, actually, your circles the sun is possible to do. Mad,
check your priors, check your eyes. And in this case, this is a guy who is competent and in terms of his ability to beat Trump, to be clear, it is a close call as to whether there is another human being other than Joe Biden who can unite the Democratic Party and defeat Donald Trump. To date, he is the only one who's done that. He's the only one who did it last time. He's the only one who done it has done it this time. And the reason
he's done it. You guys are talking about a bunch of things that are bad about Joe Biden, and that's fine, not saying they're not bad. Whatever thing is, there are also things they're good about Joe Biden, things that the Americans trust.
About Joe Biden.
The MAGA Global movement has spent an enormous amount of money and resources to persuade swing voters that Joe Biden's ruped and it's failed. It succeeded against everybody else, but it failed against him. That is his superpower. People cannot unsee Biden's honesty and decency any more than they can unsee Donald Trump's business acumen. Now I think Donald Trump doesn't have any business acumen, but I'm not going to be able to persuade swing voters that it's baked in.
Same thing for Biden.
Biden has a unique grand strength that makes him uniquely good against Donald Trump. And that is what he believes, and that is what I believe. Now you don't believe it, fine, but remember it's his decision.
He was the nominee. So I am not saying that.
I very much believe that the presidency is at stake. I very much believe that which of these two presidents as president matters greatly. I very much believe that is the sort of person, even if he was all things Sank said, that's a guy who keeps a Trump prosecutor in place to put his own son in jail. He's the guy that sits for a deposition with Robert Hurr even when our ally is being attacked on October seventh.
He's the guy who will step down peacefully if he loses this election, even though Donald Trump has promised to use the state against him. These are indications of a tremendous commitment to the rule of law, and for us to judge that someone else will be better, I'm sure that's debatable.
I don't think so, he doesn't think so.
You know, the Democratic swing voters continue, Yes, they don't like him, but if you compare him to the other alternative.
Jenk any response to that or should we talk?
Yeah, real quick, guys. Trump's two biggest problems we all agree and I've said before, is he's a giant, pathological liar. But now the country thinks Joe Biden is lying about his mental health. A huge percentage of the country thinks that. Up to eighty percent of the country thinks he's lying about his mental health. That is, so there goes your advantage against Trump. In fact, when they pull it now more people think Biden's lying, So why are we giving
away all of our advantages? The second giant problem with Trump is that he won't let go of power. That's why we had January sixth and his coup plot and all of that, And what's Joe Biden doing now? He won't let go of power even though he's clearly the worst candidate for the Democrats. So there goes our two best talking points. And look, Dimitri, you could easily, like you said, all the business acumen for Trump is baked in.
That's not true. Put up a candidate that is tough, like for example, Look, I could tear down his business acumen in one debate. I could totally and utterly embarrass him and create a giant national conversation about what a loser he is, how he went bankrupt six different times. They couldn't manage his way out of a wet paper bag, his daddy's little boy, and he lost daddy's four hundred million dollars. Then he lost his second daddy's four hundred
million dollars. That was the money that Jeff Zucker gave him through the Apprentice. The biggest loser in business history in America. Why didn't Joe Biden say any of that? Why don't they actually fight him? And instead Joe Biden said that he was going to defeat Medicare during the debate. This is madness, total other matters, And I say, as I said last night on social media, it's not just Joe Biden that's in mental decline. If we make him
our candidate, the whole party's in mental decline. If we select Joe Biden as our strongest candidate. I'm not willing to insult the Democratic Party like that, And so that's where I'm at with that now. In terms of Kama Harris, we want to make the same mistake again. We want to anoint. Stop anointing the Democratic leadership. Honestly, I think are a bunch of morons. You want those guys to
pick the best leader. They almost always picked the worst candidate, Hillary Clinton, and they were positive she was gonna win. What happened? You lost? You don't know what you're doing. And not only did you lose, you lost an imbecile. It's humiliating. And here you are again losing to an imbecile, and an imbecile who that tried to coop against America, who has the thirty four felony convictions that people love
to talk about. But yet the Democratic leadership, in their infinite stupidity, are still losing to them, and now might lose to them in a landslide. No, I don't want a Democratic leader anywhere near annoinking a leader and I don't care. Oh my god, Oh she's a VP. That has nothing to do with the candidacy. That's just for the presidency. So something that God forbid happened to Joe Biden, and she's the president. That's great, of boards, of course,
there's no question about that. But in terms of the candidate, for once, why don't we pick the strongest candidate? These are the delegates of the convention, are all Joe Biden delegates. Don't worry. They're not going to pick up progressive. They're not going to come within continents of a progressive Okay, there's no way it's Bernie or anyone in that camp. They're just to pick between two corporate Democrats. Everything's going to be okay, okay, But just that's like the last
piece of democracy we have left. At least, let the delegates decide instead of a bunch of eighty year olds in a closed room somewhere to go. Oh, what do you think? I don't know. Let's clebertylong, Joe. No, No, let the delegates.
Decide, Dimitri, isn't there a possibility that.
By letting a hungry, a public that is hungry for some type of relationship with its government.
Letting letting the public have that through an open convention.
Could could break something could could could kind of break the spell that Donald Trump has over his ability to just kind of dominate the airwaves, and could connect the public to the Democratic Party through the spectacle of an open convention.
So all of you are making assumptions about the way that American the American public chooses its president that are assumptions that I do not hold.
I do not believe that.
Asking two thousand delegates to choose on their own what they want after fourteen million Democrats have voted is a low risk endeavor. I don't think that asking two thousand delegates to reject the primary votes and decide on their own is a pro democracy move. And I don't think an open convention in Chicago that manages to get the incumbent to step down is guaranteed to keep the White House. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's how Richard Nixon one in nineteen sixty eight exactly.
So the question is not whether jenk and I can.
Persuade a people, a group of a roomful of people that are rational that Donald Trump is a business failure. It is that I have tried that, as has Ads, did the Hillary campaign, as did the Biden campaign.
And it doesn't work.
We break our pick on that when we're in front of a general audience because they can't unsee the brand of the apprentice. Similarly, the MAGA media has spent I think over a billion dollars if you include a government action persuading the public that Joe is corrupt. And maybe they think he's lying about health right now, but in general swing voters do not believe it. So there are some things that cannot be unseen in this electoral environment.
And again I think you have to be conscious of what's happening with the bad guys, right the misinformation that is going to come at the nominees in an open convention as we're all debating those two thousand delegates. The thing about those two thousand delegates is they're much more susceptible to your influence than the fourteen million voters are. And so really the question is are we doing the same thing at are we doing the same thing in
twenty twenty four as we did in twenty sixteen? And Jen is saying that I'm the one who's making the mistake, and I'm saying no, no, no. Everybody told in twenty sixteen, everybody told Joe Biden to stepped down. Everybody was sure he was too old and two for all sorts of personal reasons, unfit to either be the nominee or the president.
They told him that in twenty sixteen, and he engaged in the selfless act of stepping away from a life's work because he believed them, and the entire world suffered because they were wrong. Same people are the same points in twenty twenty, same people are making the same points. Now now I know new people are making those points as well. So it's not a universal indictment. But the democratic process and the deliberative process that chose Joe Biden is the process.
That we have.
It is how American democracy works. The parties choose candidates and then the nation choose between them. The nation is never happy, but you have to actually be able to win the Democratic Party nomination and beat President Trump in order to be a defense. And the idea that if Joe were to release his nominees and we had an open convention, fine, the idea that it's someone other than Kamla is again like, that's just not how this is going to work.
This is going to be Kamala's bye.
Why the organist on picking the weakest candidates? Why don't we have a real competition?
And you are saying real competition meaning the process you want. You're saying, we've had a process to choose a Democratic Party nomination that has been this way for decades and now we the media.
Folks, are certain that it's wrong, so we want.
To break it completely, break it, take away the votes from those fourteen million, give it to the two thousand, and then, not only that, we want to break some more rules and insist that they don't do what their natural default is, which is go to VP Harris.
So we alienate all the Biden people. We alienate all the Harris people.
There are no.
You are just living in a bubble, my friend.
That is no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Dmitri. Every Biden person would vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is. Period. There's not one Biden voter who would leave the Democratic Party because it's a different candidate and different.
No, no, you're a different thing, Jenk. You're saying you would still vote for Biden over Trump. So that's not the question. The question is will there be Democrats who be furious if there is a movement to overturn the votes for Biden and then also kicks out Harris the minute that happens. You weren't, by the way, the Republican Party.
I will tell you this, Jan if I could get box media elites and Republican elected officials to have this degree of conversation about Donald Trump, would we would beat him by ten points. He is a much more obviously worse candidate now than he was four years ago. Biden and Trump ran against each other four years ago, Biden won. Trump has accumulated huge vulnerabilities. We are not talking about those.
Republicans had an actual primary with Ron DeSantis and other candidates, and there was a and jenk I was going to ask, maybe you can speak to this because you've been involved in the campaign space. Democrats did not do that this time around with Joe Biden. And there's a sense actually among some people that there wasn't really ever a primary. There wasn't really ever a debate about Joe Biden, despite public polling that showed a significant chunk of Democrats and independents.
We're looking into other candidates, and we're interested in other candidates.
Yeah, so a lot of people, a lot of people.
Jim The reason no one I am is because everybody knew he was going to win, because he was by far more popular than any other name. First, and you're setting all these polls. People want someone else. It has to be a specific someone else. So this movement to house Joe right now is evenly divided by people who want Joe to step down so the Kamala vice president and people who want Joe to step down so that
Kamala is not on the ticket. Those two movements will be at each other's roads the second that Biden steps down, and.
That has been the case since day one. You can have a.
Primary against a sitting incumbent like Ted Kennedy did against Jimmy Carter. You still lose. You still have Carter. You just weaken Carter. Same thing for George H. W. Bush against Papia. It get to run a primary campaign against someone who is by far more popular than anyone else, you'll still get that scene nominee, and everybody knew it.
Look, you you are can't see politics, my friends.
Okay, So First of all, I mean, you're in favor of a guy whose brain is melting, So I don't know who's in fantasy politics land. Okay, So number one. In nineteen sixty eight, there was a challenge to a city incumbent and it was spectacularly successful. And if Bobby Kennedy had not been assassinated, it would have worked and we would have had the presidency. It was the right thing to do to force the incumbent out. There are situation doesn't it depend? Is incumbent popular, Is the incumbent
deeply unpopular? Does the incumbent have a brain? Does the incumbent not have a brain. These things are relevant, and so when they ran against Lyndon Johnson, they easily knocked him out. Now that was back in the day when we had real primaries. These days, the primaries are a joke. I was in it. Florida's like, we're canceling the election. There's no election, and shut up. Biden's the candidate. Now
forget me and the Marianne and Dean Phillips. Right, although Mariann got into like twelve that's that's a giant number. The people that were in the debates in twenty twenty four. On the Democratic side, we're at two percent, three percent, one percent, and by that metric, we should have all been in the debate, including me. But how about RFK. He was over twenty points, and they're like, no, no debate, shut up, there'll be no debate. It's Joe Biden and
you'll like it. And if, by the way, if you guys persistent being in the election, we're going to cancel them. They canceled Florida, North Carolina and Tennessee. They took off all the challenges to Joe Biden. The DNC is an obvious joke. Everyone at the DNC is picked by Joe Biden. They're all gonna get fired if Joe Biden isn't the candidate. So they're hanging on for dear life. They care about their checks much more than they care about the voters.
This is insanity. Look, we're talking about democracy and risk. So those are the conversations we were just having. So number one, on risk, you're always he's going to have some risk, just saying like, oh, oh my god, if we pick someone interesting and popular like Gretchen Whitmer or Josh Shapiro, there's risk. Yeah, Well, of course there's risk with anyone, right, The question isn't that, The question is
which side creates more risk. Does having a guy that's seventy two to eighty percent of the country doesn't think his mind is working greater risk? Or is it greater risk to pick a successful young governor. No, of course it's a greater risk to pick the guy who's eighty one in the country doesn't think is functioning. Of course it's a smaller risk if you pick a successful, great, energetic, young Democratic governor. That is a smaller risk, it is inarguable.
And then on democracy, look, since the primaries are a joke in the Democratic Party first of all, and we're running on democracies on the line, are you kidding me? And then you cancel elections in the primaries, you won't ever allow a debate, And how stupid it was that it pushed RFK Junior out of the Democratic Party. Now he's an albatrust around her neck in the general election because of the idiocy of the DNC that pushed him out.
Why don't you just have a debate. And if Joe Biden's dynamic guy you're talking about, he would eviscerate RK right, And guys, think about it, if they had a real debate with Bobby Kennedy, Marianne Dean Phillips, myself, and Joe Biden. Right, who do you think wins that debate? I mean you think like, oh, Joe Biden, legendary politician, Democrat president bunto Dude, you know you're worried that he's going to lose. First of all, I would annihilate him and everyone knows that.
And so if he can't withstand a talk show, a YouTube, the online talk show host in a debate, we're going to put that guy up as a candidate. Come on, come on, come on, this is madness. We're worried he's going to lose to Mary On Williamson and a debate, and we're putting that guy up. So we're past doing a real Democratic primary. It didn't happen. It's too late. Let's do it in twenty twenty eight. Kick out and fire everyone at the DNC for the most incompetent losers
there ever was. They always pick the worst candidates. They're deeply corrupt. Okay, Now, at an open convention, what would happen is something that looks like democracy and acts like democracy, where people are jostling for position. They're making their case why they would be the best candidate, why they were a terrific governor in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and the list in California. The list goes on. So we would get billions of dollars in free media coverage. It would be
political malpractice to throw that away. If we have a convention that is not interesting, that is not an open convension, nobody's gonna watch it. Right, If you have an open convension, the whole world will watch it. Everybody in the country will watch it, and they'll watch us competing over lo's
the best candidate. That looks like democracy. Then that candidate gets to come out of that convention super strong because they won the delegates, they proved themselves, and they get to say, you just saw the democratic process with your own eyes, and that's why I'm going to protect democracy. And obviously Donald Trump isn't. It's a layup. We just have to have the courage to do the most obvious thing.
Dmitria, I got a final question for you, guys, but I'm curious for your your read on that. I mean, that's I've been making that case in my newsletter. That's utterly persuasive to me. What's wrong with that?
I think that you guys are living in a version of American is better.
It's the version of American politics that I believe was the reality maybe in twenty fifteen.
I don't think that the scenario that you're playing out is remotely.
Close to what will actually happen in the world that Donald Trump is in and in the world that his movement has infected. I think that the free media we get of such a Chicago convention will be a lot like the pree media Democrats got in nineteen sixty eight, which is a portrayal to swing voters that Democrats are chaotic and that that is why you need a strong man. I also think that this entire discussion about who will beat Donald Trump, you're talking about it generically as if
he is a obviously blog candidate. I think all of you are dramatically underestimating how successful this kind of a movement can be, because humans kind of want that, and we have to fight against that.
And to fight against that, you need a brand.
That appeals to swing voters in a way that blunts Donald Trump's direct attack.
No, none of the candidates other than Biden have that. None of them. I like them, I will support them. Any of them is the nominee. I will go to war for them. None of them have what Biden has.
And so I think you're just feeling to understand the unique appeal of Donald Trump and the unique defenses that Biden has against that that make him different than all these other candidates that you're talking about.
While we have both you here and in the remaining time that we have, I wanted it brought it out to a slightly higher ideological level here. And so for viewers who don't know, obviously, Jank represents kind of the kind of left flank of the Democratic coalition. Dimitri is kind of an avatar for the center left, not just an avatar, but also a significant funder.
And I'll describe it. You correct me if I'm wrong, Dmitri.
You know, one of the main packs that you found, mainstream Democrats pack often has gone after kind of squad and squad adjacent members, arguing that it's doing so for the benefit of the Democratic Party, that those candidates say unpopular things that make it harder than for Democrats as a whole to run that pack is tied at the hip kind of a democratic majority for Israel, which is tied at the hip with a pack and has a
kind of clear agenda within the Democratic coalition. So in France recently you saw so and Jenk and I people like me have always argued, if you're going to fend off the far right, you have to have something, you know, you got to galvanize people with something.
You can't beat something with nothing.
And so what we saw in France recently was interesting, the complete and total collapse of the center and the rise of the left in fending off the pen and the far right.
And so what what did did you take anything away from that?
And you say, you know what, maybe Jenk and Ryan are right, and we should be funneling all hundreds of millions of dollars into the kind of left wing of the Democratic parties.
That you have something to beat something with, You're right, I.
Just of course not so that we think that, yeah, you did the thing.
Look, there are situations where that can work, Like a mid term election in the United States is very different from presidential election.
A parliamentary system is very different than our system.
An election that is called on a spot basis, like, these are all very different of settings. Different democracies have different systems. Cuba had a democracy, Putin has a voting. You know, different kinds of democracies work in different ways. Our democracy works in this way. The parties choose nominees, the public chooses in a presidential election. In this presidential election, there's about five million voters in about four or five states that are actually going to decide this whole thing.
And those people live in a very specific information environment where they're basically sure that Joe is decent buttled. They're sure that Trump is a successful businessman but a little dangerous.
And it's a debate.
The strong man debate is do you need the cleansing fire of a strong man to purge the system or can the system hold? In France, the center rallied to the left as a way of fighting against the right, and thank God, in that midterm and if the left is able to present someone who is a competitive, good figure against Trump, God bless.
The thing that I observed in twenty.
Eighteen is that Democrats who are running in plus ten districts tended to have ideas for how to win in swing districts that didn't work. And so when you've got people out there like Corey Bush is someone we're supporting, Wesley Bell. Wesley Bell's a great guy. Corey Bush wants to actually defund the police as a very unpopular position. We have a sitting member of Congress who says there shouldn't be any police forces. That's deeply unpopular across the board.
That is the kind of argument that the right makes when they say Joe Biden's week, Look who's behind him. Corey Bush, a member of Congress, actually says we shouldn't have police. That's the sort of thing that we just have to beat, have to manage in order to win in this country in this kind of an election.
Jank any response, Yeah, okay, Yeah, I have a lot of response.
Number One, The reason why they're spending millions upon millions of dollars against Corey Bush isn't because she wants to defund the police, is because she wants to defund Israel. It real that Hey, can I just can I just on that.
I think, just to be clear, one thing that you said, Ryan, we do not like a PAK. We do not agree with APAK. And when Democratic majority for Israel asked us to support them, we said no, because you're affiliated with a pack and I think bb Nesagnanhu is a war criminal.
Okay, So just to be clear, Okay.
That's not I have.
That is not why I'm the point.
Yeah, the relationship that has And yeah, Jank too.
In Dmitri's defense, I guess I would say he's been gunning for Corey Bush long before October seventh, right, I was.
Also gunning for Bob Menendez, who's pro Israel. So just on that particular thing, like I want democrats out who are terrible for our brand, and the getting focused on were Corey and Bob.
No, Dmitri, I get it, And it's nothing personal about you at all. Right, And but the reality is APAK is out there and they use things like defund police, which you might genuinely care about them, by the way, I do. I think it's a bad idea. That's not the left that I'm in favor of, which I'm going to get to in a second. But the real reason they are spending all that money against Bowman, Bush and all these other candidates Nina Turner et cetera, is on
Israel and Israel alone. That is the number one them. They've spent twenty million in those three races alone. That is a preposterous number. And it's only because they will not bow their heads to Israel. And that's just a fact that anyone denying that is denying reality. Okay, so that's fine, that's what's happening in the primaries. I get it. That's and the problem and out, but it does connect
to this. There is a feeling of discomfort from the donor class about the delegates picking because for the first time it's not the donor's picking, and that makes them very, very uncomfortable. They like having the reigns of power. I don't blame them, I get it. They're, you know, masters of the universe. They have billions of dollars and they want to pick, and they want to buy the candidate. And in a convention they won't be able to buy
the candidate. I mean they do because they're all Biden delegates anyway, But it just loosening to raise that tiny bit is scarce the hell out of them. They're like big risk, big risk donors will not be in charge giant risk. Keep it real. So now, in terms of who's going to win, and who's actually good candidates along ideological grounds. Guys, this is crystal clear and people can't understand it. But I think I have the Rosetta stone. They're like, wait, why did UK go Brexit and then
record victory for labor? Why did Brazil go Lula, then Bolsnara then Lula? Wait a minute, left, right, left, right, everybody's going left right NonStop. What the hell's going on here? Right? Well, the answer is they're not going left or right. They're going for change because everyone hates this corporate system that we all live under, and they have it. They know in their bones. The politicians serve the donors all across the world, and they serve corporations and their interest because
they have all the money. So the minute anyone raises their hand on the right or left and says I'm a populist and I'm not serving those guys, they skyrocket up and win. That party that won in France. It's existed for only a month, and they didn't win because they're radical left on social issues. They won because they're at difference. They're not the incumbents. They're change. And the number one thing that works across the world is economic populism.
So Ryan, I know why you characterize me as the guy on the left flank of the Democratic Party, and that is fair and that is accurate. But the main thing I focus on is not the social issues. It's economic populism, the thing that took from Bernie Sanders from two percent to forty eight percent in twenty sixteen when no one expected it. For God's sake, when are we finally going to deliver for the voters? Give them higher wages through increasing minim wage, give them paid family leave,
give them universal health care. And the Democrats WI always say, oh, yeah, sure, we'll do it, Wig, and then they come in and they don't do anything, and then they go, why won't they wont for incumbents after we've betrayed every single thing we said we were going to do. This is not rocket science. Pick someone who's an actual economic populist and a new candidate, and I guarantee victory. Instead, we're going to guarantee a defeat because the donors like Joe Biden.
He's a good return on investment.
And Dimitri, I think this is a good place to maybe give you the last word, and I'll add a preface that George Clooney, perhaps the most high profile Biden fundraiser, has come out today with an op ed that is just headlined I love Joe Biden, but we need a new nominee. He writes that I was at this fundraiser with Biden three weeks ago, and he says it was not the Joe big effing deal Biden of twenty ten.
He wasn't even the Joe Biden of twenty twenty. He was the same man we all witnessed at the debate. He says the Stephanopolis interview reinforced his opinion on that he's calling basically for an open convention, and you know, kind of what right along the lines of what Ryan was talking about. So with everything that Jank just said, I'll just toss this to you, what are you seeing that George Clooney isn't seeing. I know we've covered a lot of that ground already. And why is it wrong continuously?
Why is the Jank position here wrong that if voters really want change, an open convention would be a great way to appeal to them.
Yeah, it's not clear to me that voters want change. Maybe they do, that is not I don't believe that the party that can resistance a month ago one in France because everybody digested their platform. I think they won because everybody had digested the Penn's platform.
It was ann coalition. It's stewed up. That's fine.
But the thing about what Sank just said, and about what Donor said, about what Looney's saying, about what democratics did, leaders were saying. They are all saying that a process with two thousand delegates should be elevated in a brand new way. We should release the delegates and have two thousand people make a decision rather than the fourteen million you've already decided and the fourteen million. Jenk says they decided because of donor influence, and they decided because it was all.
Set up in advance. And yet somehow they also chose Biden in twenty twenty.
Right. So I just think that at the end of the day, there is a question about whether Biden is the best person to defeat Trump or not.
I believe he is.
More importantly so does President Biden. And President Biden as the non means, so we need to beat Donald Trump. Someone to go in the Democratic primary and then beat Donald Trump. He's the only one we've got to meet for Brigia.
Well, Demitian Jenk really thank you guys for joining us, and Dimiti, thank you for making a really almost unmakable case, like it's a very difficult one, but you're out there. You're out there making it, and you may end up being right.
Who knows, like and and Biden may end up staying in the race like so despite the fact that we thought he was out. Jank, thank thank you as well for joining us.
As a lot of this conversation kind of made my brain hurt, but that's I think it's a good thing when your brain, when your brain hurts, Yeah, because.
Jank, I'll make your brain hurt.
It's a time of your memoir, all right. As the muscles repair, it gets stronger. That's right. Well jan in there.
This has been fascinating. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much to both of you.
Thanks Emily, Thanks Brian N. Nice to see you you too, do