4/7/25: Elon Jumps Ship On Tariffs, Mass Protests Erupt, Dem Congressman Faces Off On Tariffs

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We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints dot com. Let's turn out to some internal divisions inside of the Trump administration. Elon Musk, allegedly the most powerful person who was currently in the Trump administration, is majorly counter signaling the Donald Trump tariffs. He appeared recently in an interview with respect to Europe where he has been speaking against tariffs and what he would like to see is the end goal.

Let's take a listen.

I'm hopeful, for example, with the tariffs that at the end of the day, I hope it is agreed that both Europe and the United States should move ideally in my view, to a zero tariff situation, effectively creating a free trade zone between Europe and North America. And that would be my That's what I hope occurs. And also more freedom of people to move between Europe and North America if they wish, if they wish to work in Europe, who wish to work in America, they should be allowed

Obviously that's not what the President has taken in terms of his advice.

And Elon is now openly.

At war with Peter Navarro, who is Trump's trade advisor and definitely the person where a lot of these formula and this idea came from.

Put this up there on the screen just so you guys can see.

So Navarro gave an interview where he was responding to some of Elon's To some of Elon's points, Elon replied, a PhD in Econ from Harvard is a bad thing, not a good thing. Results in the ego and brains are greater than problem. He replies, Navarro is one hundred percent correct, PhD or no PhD, just obsessed with trade for quite a while. Elon quote, he ain't built shit. Here is Peter Navarro's response, Let's take a listen.

Can we go back to Elon Musk for a second, because I'm glad that you brought that up. He also took a shot at you personally on X and he's going against the administration with respect to the tariff policy. The President has said in the coming months he may leave the administration.

Peter, is there a rift internally?

No? Look Elon.

Look Elon when he's in his doge line is great, But we understand what's going on here? Do we just have to understand? Elon sells cars and he's in Texas assembling cars that have big parts of that car from Mexico, China. Batteries come from Japan or China, the electronics come from Taiwan, and he's simply protecting his own interests as any business person would do. We're more concerned about Detroit building cadillacts with American engines, and that's what this is all about.

There's no rift, Crystal. So who do we wrote root for? Is this is an Iran Iraq situation? You wish puts both sides. The best of Lovey is that is that where I don't know, he's not wrong in terms of Elon's incentives.

What's Tesla stock at But here's the thing.

Here's the thing though.

Minus nine today, good Lord.

Tesla has god Let's issues.

The Tesla mostly elonth leadership and the union busting, but they've gone out of their way to source parts domestically.

They are made in America, beyond the battery. It's the more made in America card than GM.

I want you to think about what Peter Navarro was actually saying here, because if their policy was going to do what you're saying, this policy is going to do, should be a huge beneficiary. They're an American made car.

You know, there's all sorts of.

Reasons Tesla stock's been falling, but the latest one is certainly related to the tariffs. As the rest of the market is in freefall at the moment, So it's such an admission that even for a company like Tesla, this

You could see him.

If the Democrats go back to being like a total neoliberal, like they're renegotiating TPP or whatever, maybe Elon's going to come back to the Democratic Party. I don't think that any Democrats should ultimately want that, but who knows what the future is going to hold. But you know, very noteworthy given how much power Elon has and how Peter Navarro really is the sort of like hardest core ideological

Allow you know, let me go off on this a little bit because I like Peter Navarro and I'm pro tariff and I'm pro to but like this talking point, that's the problem with Japan. Like Trump just put this out, spoke to the Japanese Prime minister this morning. He's sending a trop team to negotiate. They have treated the US very poorly. They don't take our cars, but we take millions of theirs. Yeah, you could give away a Ford f one fifty in Tokyo and they wouldn't drive it.

Why would you.

It's an over engineered, eighty something thousand dollars massive car. That wouldn't make sense when you have access to a ten thousand dollars more fuel efficient.

Toyota high loock.

You know why we drive Toyota's because they're more fuel efficient, more comfortable, better engineered, and they're cheaper.

It's not because of a trade deficit. Same in Europe.

The Fords and Chevies or whatever that sell in Europe, they would never sell here.

They're tiny.

If you ever go over there, you don't even recognize some of these models America.

Try to drive an F one to fifty through like a European yea.

Literally, you could work.

You ranked one of those piece of shits little Pugo's, and to'll be driving around in Italy and you still can barely fit the damn thing through these one thousand year old Okay, so that's one thing. But that's what he's like, This is a Steven Miller thing too. He's like, you never see any American cars in Japan. I'm like, yeah, why is that? It's like, it's not because they're it's not because they're being blocked.

It's because their cars are better than.

Ours, And I hate I hate sounding like some Milton Friedman esque like they're you know, specialized comparative advantage, But like, what are we doing here? Do we really want to Japanese who have half of the median income of the average American to be rolling around in a.

Cadillac with a cooler in it?

The way that that's what these Americans are buying. And actually they shouldn't even buy them. They're ridiculous. They break all the time, they have too many electronics in it, They're way too expensive. We choose all of this bullshit luxury and then wonder why they were get to twenty percent APR and a sixty eight thousand dollars car payment for a brand new car. It's one of those where it's totally out of step, Like they would laugh at you if we were like, oh, you need to buy more?

And it's true, almost.

Forty two percent of all of revenue in nineteen oh two from my at list shows comes from the customs duties. But you know, it's also a country that basically spent nothing and had no income to act. It was very, very different, right.

One of the.

Interesting things in there too is to actually see how little America mattered at that time. In that atlas, it has a list of the military sizes of the Great German of the Germanic Empire, and America's like number twenty five in all of these It's not just a fascinating view into history. But my point just broadly is just like, what are we trying to do here? Are we trying to have more reindustrialization?

Great?

Do we want to force jap American cars on? Have we not exported enough Western bullshit over to them?

Leave them alone?

Same?

You know, with there and this is not just my you know, Japanese love same thing with the Europeans, like they drive their cars because they're engineered for their purposes, in the same way that the Jeep grand wagoneer with coolers appeals to the American soccer mom. Most of the other rest of the world thinks that's grotesque and weird. But you know, different markets, different strokes for different folks.

No, there is nothing there, And it's it's going to harm. Like if your goal is increasing manufacturing in the US, it's going to harm manufacturing in the US. If there is no change to this, it will harm manufacturing in the US, it will harm ordinary people. And we've talked about this in previous shows, but I want to make sure we get in this show too. The whole social contract of this country is cheap shit that's what we don't.

Get, and the number has to go up for.

And the number has to That's right, that's what we like.

That's we don't have a social safety not like the you know, Norwegian we don't have that, like the Scandinavian countries, like Europe does.

We don't have that. Okay, so what do we get?

We get our Walmart runs, we get our Costco trips, we get what hassan biker calls our treats.

We get our treats, we get them cheap, and the line goes up. That's the deal. Okay. I would like to change that deal.

The deal that is on offer from Trump is you don't get your treats and you don't get anything else. You don't get anything else, You're gonna lose your job. We're gonna have a recession. The line is gonna go down. Like I mean, he is playing with fire. He really is playing with fire here. And maybe uh, you know, the global economy is able to absorb this better than we expect. Maybe the charish are rolled back and Trump is you know, making the ultimate bluff here, and maybe

Yeah, I did see that.

And retail was buying the dip at larger numbers. And so you also have like the movement over the past number of years or like the you know, the the Stonks movement, the game stop that like impetus of retail trading and crypto and those people are going to get destroyed. Like I just the amount of pain the real harm that all of this is going to do to real people boggles my mind. It just boggles my mind. I cannot wrap my head around it. And so I don't know. I don't know where we're by.

The dip ros are and a tough one because they're about down about ten percent when they bought the dip So you know it's rough. At the same time, you know, I feel of a long term view, et cetera. Yes, things are cheap, and I wouldn't ever encourage panic.

Sellings, not financial advice.

This none of this is you absolute shouldn't ask me.

But just generally, where we are selling, we are screwing with people's lives. Yes, there will be damage at a personal level. The number one cause of divorce in North America is money problems. The number was one of the major reasons that commit people commit suicide, great depression, people feeling inadequate, et cetera. That's just tell on a person, men in particular, man in particular, provider role. Go look at the male suicide rate from O nine bloodbath. The

He ran on I'm going to bring prices down, right, this is going to raise prices significant. And now he's saying I don't really care. I could care less prices go up. I mean that is directly contradary. So yes, look, if you're a Wall Street if you're on Wallstreet and you were like placing bets based on that, he's not serious about these tariffs. Like you were a fool. Sorry, you were an absolute fool. You should have just read Jeff Stine and the Washington Post and you'd be much

And I saw the numbers earlier.

Forty percent of the people who shifted from Biden to vote for Trump, they said inflation was their number one reason, right, That's what they thought they were getting. They thought that that was Trump was the businessman, and he would, you know, write the economics ship, and he's always had high approval ratings on the economy, and they just sort of felt like he's got it, like he'll do a good job, right, whatever that entails. He says, terrorists, he says, you know, tax Cus.

Well, I he'll figure it out. He's a good businessman.

I'm sure he's gonna, you know, steer your scent in a good direction. In no way, in no land did the mass of voters think that intentionally crashing the stock market was going to be that direction. And the reason

That's probably a.

Good transition point, given the likely fallout from these policies, to move to the already the resistance that is formed on among the liberal base against Trump. You know, one of the early some of the early things that we said about Trump two point zero after the election in particular, and even early into inauguration the early months of his administration is like, this resistance is not the same as twenty seventeen. Like you had the Women's March. It was

This was organized.

It's called hands Off and let's go ahead and put the vo up on the screen and I can tell you more about it.

So this was from Boston.

Estimates are that there were some six hundred thousand people that came out in locations across the country. So this is Austin, Texas here. There were protests in all fifty states. There were Ryan Grimm's dad was down at one in the village, you know, down even in my area, which is you know, pretty far outside of of DC, there was a protest there.

That was making Georgia. Here's Oakland, California.

There were huge ones in the major cities in New York, in Chicago, Portland, Oregon with a very significant protest there, Richmond, Virginia. I know, I saw quite significant one in Utah in Salt Lake City, Utah. Even in some smaller places like we had the make and Georgia one up on the screen.

Let's just let's just all forget that that happened this Yeah.

So anyway, this time it's the messaging is hands off, as in hands off soci security, hands off Medicare, hands off Medicaid, hands off veterans.

And there was a lot of both.

You know, anti Trump and anti dog and anti elon sentiment. But there was also a lot of frustration too, and we can put put e three actually up on the screen from Ken Klippenstein. There was also a lot of frustration among these folks aimed at Democrats, who Democratic elected officials, who they felt was were not fighting back adequately. The So there was a lot more of a i guess a sort of class war frame here as well in terms of focusing on the social safety net versus twenty seventeen.

If that gives you a.

Sense of where they are right now. Another one said Congress is doing nothing. They were disgusted with the lack of leadership, both from Congressional Republicans and Democrats. There's no spine, said another is this America? There were a lot of concerns about the deportation with no due process, the disappearing of people into this foreign gulag, and El Salvador recover more developments there tomorrow. Someone said, we have to fight

I think that the benefit that the protest movement has more than anything is that the doge and social Security was it was realistic, but it was still somewhat hypothetical, and it was like, Okay, it's going to eventually get to this place, right about social Security, Medicare, etc. Yes, we can talk about longer lines, but this is not exactly the same thing as like a real cut, same with elon taking over the government or any of that.

That was all.

I think it still requires quite a bit of like media literacy and its people actually reading the news to be able to connect with that everybody can connect with losing money and higher prices. That's where what you want is your protest, the center of gravity of your argument to hit to exactly where people's concern is.

That is where people are.

At right now, and that's why we can all agree at a fundamental level that this is one which will strike truly at the heart of where every common American can come together. Immigration, I mean, look, even on the immigration thing, as you know, I changed my mind on this stuff. But the Wall Street Journal poll shows that even if you violate due process, the due process, I think the majority of Americans, the people who stand behind that people got to be honest about where the country

Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't call it concern trolling.

I would just call it concern.

Well, I'm just saying, though, I mean, you have to acknowledge the architect the architecture of where we are in the discourse as a country that's a pretty insane place.

Country has moved.

I saw that pole and the way that it was phrased, it is definitely did not ask the question do you support sending indefinitely a makeup artist who has literally done nothing wrong at all to a foreign prison to be torture.

For the rest of his life. That was not the phrasing of the Pole.

So I don't think that Democrat should be afraid of prosecuting that case as well. But there is no doubt that in terms of you know, what will cause people en mass to completely turn on this administration, this president specifically, like if your your bottom line is your bottom line, if you can't make rent, if you can't afford to feedure it, prices are going up, if you lose your job, if the president engineers a recession, you can.

Expect these protests to be like to look like.

Nothing compared to the backlash that will come. And that seems to be what Trump is is courting right now. So with that being said, we're really excited to be able to have Rocana on and or in casts. So both of them just to set this up a little bit, and they'll explain their positions specifically, so I don't mischaracterize, but you know, Rowe is someone who is not an ioliberal. He supports some level of protection and he's certainly supported

Great to see both of you. Really appreciate you taking the.

Time, Gridge to you.

Thank you. Congressman.

Yeah, of course you should be on with the.

Warn I always love debating or chatting with them.

Lovely, all right, congresson, let me just start with you, just top line, what do you think of what the President's up to here?

This is the single most destructive act to the American economy and American wealth in modern times.

I mean, you have to look at probably what Vulker.

Did in the nineteen eighties in terms of inducing a recession to have anything close and their vulgar actually had.

Reasons because you had high inflation.

Here, you just have blanket tariffs which are going to actually make it harder for manufacturers because it's going to drive up input costs and supply chain costs.

You have no permanence, so if you're Mary.

Barrow or Jim Farley, you can't even say let's build factories here, because Trump himself would say, I don't know, maybe these will be gone in a month or two months or a year. They're not targeted, and they're impacting allies as as well as very poor countries. I mean, it is just economic illiteracy. What I would say is, you know, you have the sort of total free market people who just think let everything be free markets. They're wrong,

Policy or in what are your thoughts on the specifics of what the president has imposed here?

Well, I guess I agree with some of that and disagree with some of it. I think big picture, you know, the direction here and moving away from the unfettered globalization of the last generation is the right move. I actually think also that the sort of very blunt and broad tariffs, something like a ten percent global tariff, is a useful policy.

Yeah, I meanficing to the specifics and more.

Because we could debate roll out, we shall also a debate vision about where things want to go. Something that Howard Lutnik, the Commerce Secretary responsible for really much of this out, has said is to bring back manufacturing, even in terms of screwing the little screws. So let's take a listen to that, and we're going to get both of your reactions.

Great American workers.

You know, we are going to a place on other network, armies of millions of people. Well remember the army of millions and millions of human beings screwing in little little screws to make iPhones.

That kind of thing is going to come to America. It's going to be automated, and great Americans, the trade craft of America is going to fix them, is going to work on them. They're going to be mechanics, there's going to be HVAC specialists, there's going to be electricians. The trade craft of America, our high school educated Americans, the corn to our workforce is going to have the greatest resurgence of jobs in the history of America to work on these high tech factories which are all coming

Congress, your reaction up because you represent one of the most high tech districts in the United States.

I was just a little bit sad.

I had invite the commerce sector to come out to my district where could give him a free education. Screws are about zero point two percent of an iPhone's cost.

You know, we may want to work on.

Things like the display screen or the flash drive or the camera. I mean, it's almost like he's living in the nineteenth century. Of course, they've got nineteenth century policies.

On how to build an industrial base.

I mean, you want to build high tech factories here, what we need is financing. What we need is a government to say, if you build it, will buy it.

That's how Silicon Valley started. What we need is investment in the workforce.

So they're just going about this in a way that isn't how FDR or Hamilton or Lincoln built the America.

I mean, taris were a part of.

It, but it was a very discreet part of it. FDR actually, who didn't want more to re industrialize America than anyone in the modern age, actually opposed the high terrafsy it's explicitly opposed as the smooth Hawley tariffs, and then opposed high tariffs and had a.

Vision for industrialization.

So you know, this is just I can't emphasize enough how much this is economic incoherence and how much Trump supporters are a gas at what's going on.

I mean, the guy won because people thought he knew what he was doing with.

The economy and business. And he's destroying American wealth. He's destroying American factories. There are no new factories that are coming up because these things aren't permanent. He's increasing the input cost of factories. He's hurting small businesses. The Russell two thousand is collapsing, and I just I hope there's some intervention or.

Let me let me get tried. I want your response to that. But also some of the things Lutnik has been saying kind of get to this key question of what is even really the goal here, because you know, people raise, Okay, let's say you bring iPhone production to the US, the iPhones because we have higher labor costs and because, by the way, you know, we don't have as large of a social safety net. Also as other countries, So businesses have to bear a lot of that cost

Of the two.

How do you see that particular dimension of this.

It's a great question, and I guess briefly, I just want to say I agree entirely with the Congressman about his broader point about the other kinds of policy we need here too, whether it's the financing policy, I think, workforce development, yes, huge, you know that's not kind of like details of implementation. That's a big part of the strategy that I think we probably agree on to a

Much more censically than he did. He did.

He didn't say let's have people be operating the advanced machines.

He said let's have them doing the assembly of the screws. I just think he's out of touch.

I don't know if he's ever been to Apple's campus or to Silicon Valley. I think he's got no clue about technology. I think these people are stuck in James folk expansionism and McKinley's tariffs. And the saddest thing is they don't understand the modern economy.

They're kind of clueless.

Go ahead, orn you can respond to that.

Well.

Look, Keith, I mean was specifically saying he was talking about the mechanics jobs maintaining the robots. This was I'm happy to say that there's room for improvement on the communication here, But what he was talking about is highly automated, highly productive factories and the jobs that come along with those.

My guess is he probably wouldn't even be able to name the five pp components of an iPhone. Like literally, I don't think the guy understands the modern economy.

But fine, I understand that part of your job is up communicating it. I understand that part of your job is just to attack people on the other side. But I'm interested in what the actual substance of the time.

I think it was collapse the American economy. Who has gotten the people who are going to get people laid off? Yeah, in that attack, and he's done almost destruction of American wealth, of the American academy.

We won't see answered Crystal, he's in coherent.

Yeah, go ahead and answer the question. And I want to thank you God.

Yeah, because I think the vision point is very important here, and it's it's a key point to understand that, you know what what I think the Trump administration envisions. You know, certainly, what I think is so important in focusing on this reindustrialization is not that you're somehow bringing back the same jobs of the nineteen fifties, doing the same kind of work.

For one thing, it.

Does provide a lot of good employment. And yes, there are many fewer jobs in those factories than there were in the factories.

Of the nineteen fifties, but you know what, there's a.

Lot more jobs in those factories than there already not having the factories. And so when you're talking about how you produce a broad based renaissance in the industrial economy, you're talking about a lot of regions that have left behind that you don't bring back by putting everybody back in a factory. That you bring back by having highly productive,

And soccer.

Just to make one more quick point, I think the other thing that's key to recognize here is that the reason the industrial base is important is that you can't just pick and choose which things you want to be good at. We've tried to do that with our defense industrial base. We're just going to be good at the aircraft carriers and the submarines, and someone else can make

One of the things that's at the heart of both of your arguments. We'll start with Orn for you, with you Orn, and then to you Congressman, because this is a bit of a challenge, is that you're both kind

Or and you can start, well, let's.

Keep in mind that when you're talking about the bottom of quintile, you know, you're talking about people don't even have a high school educational a lot of times, and so you know, to some extent what you also want is even the sort of lower skilled you know, service jobs in a local economy, whether those are good jobs depends on whether you have strong manufacturing base. I actually

Yeah, a congressman, go ahead.

Well, I agree with a number of things that were to said.

One is that if you have factories in a place, it has a multiplier effect three to four times. So let's say you have a modern steel plant, You're not going to have forty five hundred people because you have robots in automation, you have one thousand people in a town of twenty thirty thousand.

That's still a lot. And if those are.

High paying jobs, they're going to spend them on restaurants, they're going to spend them on daycare, they're going to spend them on a gym membership, and it can actually revitalize an economy. Now, to your point, Siger, there's a difference between saying we want advanced manufacturing and we just want.

High tech stuff. I agree with you.

If it was just let's put semiconductor factories and battery plants everywhere, that is maybe not going to create a sufficient amount of jobs for the working and middle class. But if we're talking about advanced steel plants, if we're talking about advanced production in and of itself, that is going to create electrician plumber.

Jobs, jobs of machinists.

And what we should do is make sure that every person in high school has an opportunity to have a trade, whether that's a vocational trade or a digital trade, and many of these advanced manufacturers facilities would create those jobs. Plus they're going to spawn the service sector to have higher wages but it needs more of an investment in the workforce, and it also needs, in my view, standards for wages.

Laren, let me get to you on this piece, which is something you've kind of alluded to, if we could put F four up on the screen, because you've said, listen, you support tariffs in principle, but it has to be done the right way, and part of that, like a really critical part of that the right way is pairing it with industrial policy.

And you can see here we actually.

Not that it's been the end all be all, not that it's been enough, not that we don't need to do more, but we actually have had a policy over the past couple of years that has significantly increased US manufacturing construction spending, and that has been, you know, the Biden policy of combination of protectionism and industrial policy through both the Chips Act and the Inflation Reduction Act.

So not only is this new.

Tariff scheme completely on board from any sort of industrial policy, not only are we actually at a time when this administration is engaged in an austerity push that was going in the opposite direction of industrial policy, but they're also undermining these programs which actually we're working to increase the US manufacturing base.

Well, I certainly agree with the strength of some of the industrial policy that we've seen in the last few years. You know, I'm a very strong supporter of the Chips Act, and I think what you saw in that chart was a huge bump overall, driven almost entirely by a huge bump in those red bars, the electronics and manufacturing where the Chips ack. You know, look, we're spending a lot

Too, Congressman on that chart, and you know, you've you've had sort of a bipartisan consensus that has emerged that is a break from neoliberalism. And you know, Trump gets some credit for that from his first term with his China tariffs. I think, you know, the Biden policy maintained most of those, expanded them, introduced the industrial policy piece.

And one of the things that I'm.

Fearful of is that Democrats will just be completely negatively polarized against all tariffs, and you already see some signs of this among the Democratic base. Representative Deluzio's member from westerns Sorry, Western Pennsylvania, put on a video that was like, Hey, I have big problems these tarifs.

Tarrifs in general.

Okay, maybe in the right place, but big problems with what Trump is doing. And he was viciously attacked online by a lot of liberal Democrats who say, how dare you even say that tariffs are good in any circumstance?

Whatsoever?

You know, as you someone who has like myself a more nuanced view on trade and sees the utility of tariffs in certain targeted instances, what are you hearing and feeling from your colleagues? Is that a concern that you share?

I think the.

Attacks on Representative de Lusia beIN totally uncalled for.

He's one of the most thoughtful people on this issue. I'd highly recommend his New.

York Times out bet on terraffs, which he basically said, smart terraffs to protect critical industries against unfair trade practices and dumping are perfectly reasonable. What we don't want is blanket tariffs, and what we don't want is them done with no collaboration, because you have no idea whether it's going to be there a month, two months, three months, and there is no planning in terms of whether they're actually going to help create new factories.

So I think the attacks on him have been.

Unreasonable, and he's one of the most thoughtful members of Congress.

In fact, he's leading this group.

I've been calling for economic patriotism, and he's been leading a group of economic patriots.

Group that is very productive.

I do want to say that I appreciated Orion's role in helping with the Chips and Science Act Todd Young and I did that.

With at the time. Senator Schumer is a much.

Better legislator than he is in this moment in getting that through, and it's one of the things I'm proudest of.

And he's right.

From thirty billion dollars, that's won four hundred billion dollars of investment all five semiconductor manufacturers Intel, Micron, sk Heinez, Samsung, and TSMC here in the United States. No other country has that, and so we should be looking at efforts like that. The problem is Trump is basically Reaganism of the tax breaks deregulation disguised as I want to build new factories, and basically he's added to that high, high blanket irrational tariffs.

There's no strategy of building things.

And in the three periods in American history, you look at Hamilton, you look at Lincoln, you look at FDR.

How they did it. The large part of it was.

In federal investment, then investment in our workforce.

My last question, urin this is a political and a coalition question for you is restrained person. I supported the withdrawal from Afghanistan, we also have to admit it was a disaster the rollout, even if we support it on a policy level, it enabled I would say, and I know the Congressman will disagree with me full scale. You know,

If this is not done correctly.

I don't worry so much about those sort of old right groups, which which I just don't think are as relevant anymore as they used to be. Just across the board,

Right.

We're very happy to kind of go to the mat defending these principles in the direction and at the exact same time be totally honest about what we think is not structured correctly, what we think really puts the project at risk, and hopefully that plays some small part in maybe moving us in a better direction.

Orn Trump can always change. You could do something different tomorrow, you know, we could be having a completely different discussion next week.

God only knows.

But if these particular tariffs move forward and stay in place and are not matched with any commesorate industrial policy or support for Americans who are in American businesses who are going to be facing massive fallout over this, do you think that these tariffs will do more harm than good in your estimation?

I think I think the short term costs have the potential to be pretty high.

You know.

I think one of the most important elements of this that that we've always put into anything we argue for is that you want to see things phased in because the kind of transformation that we're talking about takes time, and so you certainly want things to be coming into effect, you know, as quickly as possible to create incentives that that people respond to. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to impose a lot of costs faster than people can respond. And so I think that's where we're

All right, Congressman, last word to you one minute until we got to go.

What do you say building things in America has always been hard when after you are trying it In nineteen thirty three is when he started, and he prepared the country over a decade for then what was the industrialization in World War Two?

And I just think we've got to be honest with the American.

People that just having massive tax breaks and having the tariffs isn't going to magically transform us into a manufacturing superpower. What we need is an investment in the workforce. What we need is to doing hard things.

Like the chip sack.

What we needed is better state capacity and being able to do things faster than we did during the Chipsack. What we did is federal financing, and it takes years to build, and this is not something that can just happen in one quarter. But I think what Trump is doing is appealing to this sense that we lost too much to China. We need to build, but trying to tell people he can just magically wave a wand with

Got it.

Well, thank you both very much for joining us. I think people will get a lot out of it, so we appreciate it.

Thanks gentlemen, this was great.

Thank you, thank you, Thank you guys so much for watching.

We appreciate it. I hope you enjoyed our tariff special. We'll see you all tomorrow.