Happy Friday. Everybody. Take a look. We got everybody in the house. Nice to see you guys.
Wow, nice to see right. Oh well, thank you.
No.
I appreciate we had to move some things around, but definitely had to be here.
Now.
I just have a very rigid I ariginly have a really very rigid schedule, and as you guys know, with my sleep sleep schedule and other things, I'm very reluctant to move things around. But sometimes that's what that's what things, that's what things get called for here.
Yeah, well there's a lot of things going on, uh what many market moves that are kind of disturbing, and China's announcing new tariffs, and so we'll take a look at that stuff. We've got big Supreme Court, unanimous Supreme Court decision last Friday. We actually talked to the lawyer for Kilmar Abario Garcia. He is the immigrant who was wrongfully the administration even admitted wrongfully sent to that person at El Salvador. The question was whether or not they
would have to do anything to come back. In the Supreme Court, in a nine to o decision, says you have to in this word is key facilitate his return so really significant there. We're also getting a look at the government's quote unquote case against Mockmood Khalil, which is revealing in the many things it doesn't say and doesn't argue. So we'll take a look at that, and then SAGERA in particular, very very interested in this Dave Smith Douglas
Murray debate on Joe Rogan. You want to give a little previous Sager.
I'm I'm heated, you know, I, as I said, I've got my schedule, you know, I'm at the gym ready for my cardio, and so I see this thing flash on my Spotify. As you know, Douglas Murray can't really I don't really like the guy, but I'll decide it within the first ten minutes. I'm I'm so, I'm texting, Dave, I'm tweeting. I'm fury. My entire workout has been screwed up and I'm enraged. I had to sit there and
just work out. Oh I did afterwards, Yeah, afterwards, because my blood was so it was so hot over this entire thing. It was ever characteristic. And have been so reluctant to enter this so called woke right debate because
I find it so tedious and annoying. Emily, I'm sure you find it similarly, But this is the best example to me of somebody who is, you know, double standards all of the tropes of actual wokeism, like in terms of lived experience and ad hominem attacks and expert you know, trolling or whatever, when you yourself are not even and experts. And we'll get to it, but yeah, I'm excited about it.
I guess I'm just like, I don't know how it's even a debate at this point about the quote unquote woke right, Like, how is that even a debate? I mean, and they've crazy further than the craziest wokesters could have ever imagined with regard to like using the apparatus of the state to achieve their goals.
Yeah, but the thing is, Crystal is, as you understand it, the people who are pushing it, like Douglas are the woke, right. The crazy thing is they're the ones who coined the term for people who are against or not even against who want They're the ones who coined the term for people who are like, hey, like maybe we can talk
about Israel or Ukraine immigration immigrant. I don't understand if they are the ones who created it, they're like and that's that's actually part of what makes it so maddening. And like I said, I don't generally engage with like low IQ individuals like James Lindsay, but you know, just like just the other day, just yesterday he tweeted and he was like, gosh, they're calling Douglas Murray and neo Khon And I'm just like, am I the only person
who reads books or like knows anything anymore? Because he wrote a book called neo Conservatism Why we need It? And it's like in Europe, right Ryan, Like you know, for you've been in this game while what you know, if someone was like, hey, Douglas Murray's neo khon, you'd be like, yeah, we know, bro. She told us things. He told us that I read that book Incer Soccer.
You're you're very animated this morning. Your mic is still like peaking a little association.
I'm sorry, Okay, all right, I'll turn it down.
He needs like a Douglas Murray James Lynn a button on his microphone when he gets mad, he hits.
That great and then we go to the proper setting to bring back our tones. Okay, all right, well, with all that's being said, let's get to the markets. I'm just gonna pull up the CNBC main page now so we can see it's nine to fifteen am. Market to open in fifteen minutes. We can take a look at the futures. So also this headline has been important. Jamie Diamond says he expects S and P five hundred earnings estimates to
fall as companies pull guidance. And apparently Jamie diamond like basically runs the country since he's the one that Trump allegedly listened to about the potential for the potential for a recession. You can see here up at the top though, futures basically flat at this point. But saga, let me let me throw it to you a little bit here for what we saw yesterday, you know, originally obviously Trump makes his announcement. Okay, we're keeping the terrace on China.
What are they now? One hundred and forty five percent? Yes, but we're rolling back other terriffs to quote unquote just ten percent except for Canada and Mexico, which you're staying
with whatever they were before. Markets get really excited. There's a huge gain one of the largest single day gains in history, and then the next day looked very different, so a lot of those gains rolled back, and then overnight we were seeing some really troubling indications in terms of bonds, in terms of basically the world being like, you know, I don't know if the US economy is really the place where we want to put our money
with any regards. So Sager, why don't you go ahead and speak to a little bit of that.
Yeah, sure, is my mic. Ok Now, I'm talking a little biteah about better. Okay, all right, sorry sales guy. Apologize everyone. I'm still a boomer in terms of my home setup. Yeah, the dollar, there's been some major selloff in the dollars. Actually, one of the most important things that's happening, aside to the bond market, the dollars at one of its lowest levels for international currencies, including in
the European Union. This is not necessarily like de dollarization, but it is generally like a loss of confidence and reserve currency. I don't want to overstate the case, but obviously with trade instability, that's going to be a big
part of it. The bond market continues to be a big problem and The funny thing is it wouldn't be as much of a problem if the administration had not said from day one that their stated goal was too lower the yield on the ten years, specifically to try and reduce the amount of debt servicing that would require
from the federal government. And so the fact that the bonds have spiked in terms of the yield, and actually even the ninety day reduction did not have any general reaction on the price basically means that the administrations the administration strategy is failing on all fronts. From the bond strategy, we also have like this attempt to try and what is it. The attempt is to try and isolate China
with the rest of the world. So not only do we still continue to have the ten percent tariff, but we're actually starting to see some interesting deals getting cut, right, So you could see there that you brought it back about the long term yields. But I actually think one of the more interesting stories is about this European Union
side deal that's been cut with China. So actually the last twenty four hours has been very clarifying for US markets, and that's why I don't really think it's a surprised that we saw such a significant reduction overall yesterday. And yeah, as you said, it's nine to fifteen here on the East coast. We have a general decent idea of where things are, and the S and P basically is flat to yesterday. So you know, the total bump quote unquote from the ninety day pause, it's like maybe four to
five percent. I mean, don't forget, we're still almost what fifteen seventeen percent down from the all time high on the SP five hundred and the day. There's still some Yeah, there are the deals, right, part of the deal Ryan.
One of the things this morning, so China announced they're lifting tariffs to I think one hundred and twenty five percent. But they also said, and I think this is part of why futures are basically flat up a little bit. They also were like, that's all we're doing, like whatever Trump does, like we're just staying here. We're not doing this whole tip for tat thing. And so I don't know, I guess that's giving people comfort of like, well, I guess it's not going to get worse than it already is.
But I also saw I think Wisenthal was tweeting that the the like discount store five and below canceled from China. Five below, Yeah, five below, you can't below. It's I have to say, they have some kind of cool stuff in there.
Anyways, you ever need a gift, like a white elephant gift or something, It's a great place to go. I've bought a lot of stupid ship from there before.
Yeah.
But anyway, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the China dynamics here, because, uh, I feel like there's a lot of overconfidence among the leadership of this country that we're positioned to win a trade war with China whilst also fighting trade wars apparently with the rest of the world.
I don't know where that confidence comes from. China has basically, you know, all of the cars as Trump as Trump likes to put it, like, they have every they have. They have the treasuries, they have the manufacturing capacity, they have the supply chains. We buy things from them, like that's that's our entire leverage. And if they can find audiences, consumer bases for that for that manufacturing capacity, then we're screwed. And so they're they're already pivoting domestically they have a
billion plus people. They're trying to grow their domestic consumer base. They're you know, there's the European Union, There's there's Southeast and South Asia. You know they have uh, they have they have political problems with all of these different entities of various ranges, but nothing like what they have all es. So it makes it makes their differences with Southeast Asia, you know, pale in comparison to US. And just so people understand the the profound implications of these of these
yield numbers going up. I remember when I was taking the Series seven, like twenty five years ago or whatever, one of the you know, the on the bond side.
How did you take the Series seven?
I was a broker.
Yeah, when have you looked like eight lifetimes right out right out of college, you have two thousand, two thousand, two thousand and one.
So the dot com crash got you out of the business, got it?
I was Yeah, I was there while it happened. Basically, it was actually I got there a little bit after.
Not that's wild.
That's my first article ever. Yeah, my first article ever was an expose a of the place where I worked actually hire this man, which was a It was a mobbed up shop and they're they're like, uh, they're going to kill you for this. I was like, no, they're not going to kill me, and they didn't kill me. But on the series seven they think this is a key thing that there's a seesaw effect with bond prices and interest rates. When bond prices go up, interest rates
go down. When bond prices go down, interest rates go up because when you need to entice people with a higher interest rate to get them in, and so it's supply and demand. When there's more demand for a bond, the price of it goes up, and so when people sell stocks, they move money. This is the orthodox. When people sell stocks, they move money into bonds. Because there's now more people trying to buy bonds, the price comes
up and the interest rate goes down. And that was what the Trump administration was counting on, that if you tank the stock market, you drive up the price of bonds, and then you reduce the interest rate, and then boom, we can when we roll over all of our debt our, debt payments are going to go down. But something broke. The orthodoxy is not working. People sold out of the market and they're going somewhere else. They're also selling their bonds Japan's as.
A lot of it is into gold. By the way, gold prices are going up and up, So I mean there's a.
Lot going on there looking for equities around the world too, somewhere other than the US that they can so we are screwed.
Well.
So, I mean throughout the week I have been, I've probably had a different take from you guys, and that I've like, this stuff is so hard to predict it to the point that Ryan just made it's kind of like jury's all out. And I think Sager just said the last twenty four hours have been clarifying. That is, I mean, what we're starting to see is maybe this isn't a surprise, but the Trump administration said this is
going to be a bet. We're gonna as we do this ninety day pause, we're going to just jack up the China tariffs. And this is going to force countries and Wisenthal pointed this out, like Cambodia and Vietnam to choose finally, between the United States and China. Nobody can have it both ways anymore, and so this is going to bring a rash of investment back into the US and it's going to be great. Everyone's going to be happy. And I do think there's just been a lack of
evidence of any of that happening. You know, it's not like that's not shock, you're controversial, but they are not able to point to very many examples. And this is something we saw this in a CNN Wasn't this a CNN panel last night, where like actually pointing to examples of how this has panned out over the last week, like investments that have actually come into the United States,
deals with those seventy five countries that have actually been struck. Listen, I'm still open to hearing great deals are coming through with these countries because we do have the leverage over things like the EU. But they can also just decide to go to China.
And if you that's already happening, it's already happening, and think about it. But like, if that's the bet you're going to make, okay, then why are you running around the world like insulting everyone needlessly and you know, picking fights with Denmark and sending jd Vance to like shake his finger at the Europeans for their censorious ways, which there's some legitimate critiques there, but then you know you
have no room to talk given what you're doing back home. Right, And so if okay, if you wanted to do this intelligently, which Sager was saying, this is like, in some ways, I hate even indulging an intelligent conversation about this because there is no intelligence behind this.
Right.
If you wanted to do this intelligently, and you wanted to force the world to pick between you and China, and you actually wanted to win in that, why would you tearify entire world? Right? Why would you go around insulting all of these people, picking a fight with Canada, picking a fight with my picking a fight with Denmark over Greenland, picking a fight with the EU. No, you would want to isolate China. You would want to try to make that deal appealing for your allies, and they've
done the total opposite of that. You know. I think part of it comes from Trump's like he's an old man, and his formative years when he was like at the peak of his powers, or like the eighties and early nineties. Okay,
the US is in a very different position now. The world has moved on, Right, we have a true economic competitor in China, who is in many ways surpassing us at this point, especially on technological development and their ability to you know, build and deliver for their own people and have some sort of like unity and program and long term thinking behind all of that. And it just seems to me like he didn't reckon with any of that, because you know, I'm not a financial genius. I did
never I never took the series seven. I'm looking at this all from like a political macro perspective, and it does not surprise me at all that as the stock market is tanking and as we are taking these insane like positions and total chaos and they're on, they're off, they're on, they're big, they're small, or whatever, we're doing it again in ninety days, that the rest of the world is going like we already were moving in the
direction of moving away from the dollar. Did we learn nothing from the fact that we threw every sanction in the book at Russia and they were like, yeah, we're still okay, Like we're actually we were able to manage that. And China is so much better position than Russia, in such a wealthier place to be able to withstand what we have to throw at them.
Well, I just want to say quickly, like on the so Scott Bessett was making the point on Talker last week that the mark a lot of the market dips started with deep seek, which is super interesting if you're making this bet about China, and I think what the reason that they were doing the penguin tariffs and the reason that they were like being so chaotic. I'm not saying that there was like a method to the madness.
I think people were on different pages. I think Trump allowed that to happen because he was like, the more people have no idea what my strategy is, the more that they bet with the United States. It creates this complete state of total chaos and uncertainty, and we are the steady hand, and it's the.
Study Are you kidding me? Are you kidding to China?
But this is what I'm saying, this is what I'm saying with the best at point, he's making the point that the deep seek leap is baked into the market decline at the same time as they're saying the uncertainty will cause people to bet on the United States. I think there's there's something if you are Canada or Mexico and you were treated a little bit differently in all of this, but still got some attacks, although I know
we have. Yesterday Trump said nice things about Queen Cloudy as shine Bomb the show.
Yeah, he's part of that percent approval ratings she had.
But for some people, like for some countries, it there's logic for Trump flex and his muscles and saying you don't want to be doing this with.
China, like this is is the US. You're safer with us. Well, it didn't. It's not turning out that way.
One thing I just want to put on quickly just to show you guys, like why China is so much better positioned is this story which I was just reading this morning. This will not really make sense to most people, but this is an example of what realestate capacity looks like. So JD dot Com, for people who don't know, is one of the biggest companies in the Fortune or in the Global five hundred and it is according to the
Wall Street Journal. Here what the Chinese government has said is that this is effectively like forcing Amazon to then pump twenty seven billion dollars of money into their economy, to force that company to buy exclusively Chinese products and to boost their domestic manufacturing. So I just want to show people, like, when you have a wholesome strategy, you can absorb one hundred and twenty five percent tariffs. If this was a strategy that was pushing something like this,
I would be behind it. But I don't see a dollar for dollar investment credit here being pushed in the United States. Instead, the Trump administration currently endorsed a one trillion dollar cut from the United States government budget, while we're also simultaneously increasing the Pentagon budget by one hundred and fifty billion dollars. So there is actually a reduction in state capacity and in cutting project yeah doze project
cutting taxes, reducing state capacity. We're actually cutting manufacturing tax credits and extending them for corporations, all while trying to levy a massive tariff. China, on the other hand, when they absorb a massive tariff, what do they do. They're like, hey, JD dot Com aka Amazon or retailer or whatever. They're like, you're pumping twenty seven billion into the economy, and they can do that to every single company in their entire
country simultaneously. They don't have We have some idiot Jerome Powell just like reading the tea leaves on an a magic eight ball. They're like, the rates are getting cut now. They also they don't have Congress. They can just pump money into their economy. They are ten x better position in my opinion, right now than we are because of these cross cutting forces. All of this is actually possible in a democratic system, but it would require a whole
of government approach, manufacturing, tax credits and more. And I think that is really the most like blackpilling thing about all of this. And yeah, just reading that, I was I'm like in awe that they can just go imagine summoning bezos the way that they imprisoned that guy was at jack MA and they're like, yeah, you're putting twenty seven billion off the top, it's going straight into the economy. There's no yes or no, they're just like, this is
what you're doing. And in that my admiration for that is that it's Yes, often they use their authoritarianism capriciously and to crack down whatever, but like, in this sense, it is so obviously intelligent in knowing exactly how to make sure that the Chinese customer is not you know, broadly affected keeping their supply chain. They don't care if it's going to impact jdstock or JD dot Com stock,
which ironically it actually went up as a result of this. Yeah, but I'm just saying they don't care about these short term you know, you know, even quarter by quarter basis, and that's why they're well positioned for strength and frankly even more like the autaric protectionist vision that the Trump administration wants. You can have that, but then you have to do stuff like this, and you'd have to do
it via Congress. You have to you'd actually have to endorse a one trillion dollar a one trillion dollar investment tax credit that would be giving to all of companies that want to build in the United States phase ins. But you need then you can't be cutting the EPA. You know, a friend of mine and very into regular nuclear energy just sent me this dose is trying to act the entire team that would be responsible for green lighting new nuclear reactors. Right, So what are we doing here?
That's actually about if you know, abundance. We talk a lot about abundance. That's a key part I think of the abundance agenda. Meanwhile, you know, over there everything is so vertically integrated that yes, they obviously have inefficiency, but whenever it's like hyper focused on something very important, that is, they're ready to spring into action. They've studied the US economic playbook for years. Russia is the greatest thing that
ever happened to them. They got to battle test it and they got to observe exactly how it all works. I mean, I remember screaming this at the time. I was said, why why would you blow it all here on a stupid conflict like Russia Ukraine? Whenever China is just sitting there and watching this entire thing.
We talked about this, We talked about this. I mean, Ryan can't we can't beat the Hohu Thies in Yemen. We can't. Like we stay in Afghanistan for twenty plus years and the Taliban just to me, like, we think we're going to be able to go toe to toe with China at this point. I'm sorry, it's delusional. It's delusional.
Yeah, And we're like, we're shocked at what China has been able to build development wise from two thousand up until twenty twenty five. And we're like, China is cheating us, you know, we are, We're such victims. How on earth could China have done this to us. We never should have let them into WTO and PNCR was such a mistake.
It's like, well, what where did the What did the.
US spend its trillions of dollars on from two thousand until today? We spent all of our money in Iraq and Afghanistan And during the during the Cold War, the US actually did have the capacity to organize its foreign in corporate policy in a uniform ish way, similar to how China can today, because the parties were the parties agreed on what US foreign policy ought to be taking on the Soviet Union, establishing American togemony, and the corporate
CEOs were on board. They would like just pick up a phone like all right, this is these are your marching orders. And the corporations they would not China style, but they would they would follow the directions that they were getting from from a white House that had the buy in from the other party. Now Trump is fighting
a two front war. He's trying to basically eradicate the Democratic Party and all of its constituent elements with universities, research union, you know, teachers unions, federal workers like he's trying to basically destroy his domestic enemies, while he is also then waging war trade war on all of these countries around the world. And that means you don't have a unified a center of power on which to take
on China like you can't. Maybe he can win, you know, a two hundred and eighty five front war, but it's a little bit more difficult.
We also have a corporate class compared to mid century post war period.
That is, they're not pro American, they're global.
And they're more there's there's so much more powerful. I mean, you have somebody like Markser who running a company that is significantly more powerful, the most RT right.
And he speaks Chinese like like he's not gonna like be like all right, let's let's rally around the flag.
He's like what flag?
Yeah, Eli Mooble company, Yeah, same yeah.
Yeah.
I mean the vast majority of Meta users are not American. That's people forget. That's like it's actually not really I mean, it's an American flagship company. But the absolute back I think they have three billion users, so you do math. I mean, it's not that difficult to figure out what percentage of people do use their platform just broadly. I think Ryan is absolutely correct and on all of this. Look, I mean, I don't want to understate the great strengths of the
United States. Like the one thing we have going for us is that we are the greatest consumer market in the history of the world. Uh. Probably not a good thing, but that does mean that we have a lot of letter below. Yeah, shout out to five below. And I mean, you know, that's that's what makes American tick. Who am I say otherwise TJ Max Home Goods and all this other stuff. Uh. But and a lot of that does come from China, so they're obviously going to have an effect.
I'm not going to say they won't make it. It's just like the Russians. No one will say that the Russians are materially better off than whenever they invaded Ukraine. But the idea that you can just overnight like crush them or something, when they have such incredible state capacity in China and they also have their own ability to
act as well as a much more unified population. I mean, I don't know if you guys saw this, but that JD clip of him calling the Chinese peasants, yeah, talking about Chinese that has gone massively viral in chinaeah massively viral on I forget what it's called webo or something like that, and the state censors are actually usually they crush clips that get circulated around. They're like, oh, let fly, let fly, and that is rock. Some of the state.
Folks people are sharing old clips of maw being like we will never give it, oh boy. And I mean, but that's a real phenomenon, Like look at what happened in Canada with the trade war. Suddenly it flipped politics on its head. The conservative dude was ready to run and now Carney the liberal has an eight percent chance of being the next prime minister. Like there was a real there was like a spark of Canadian nationalism, maybe at like historic levels, and it's going to be the
same thing in China. Like they are unified behind We're going to win. Our country is not unified. But our country does not want this. If you had to vote, I mean, I think a majority of probably even Republicans would be like, I don't know about this direction, but certainly a majority of the public based on all of the polling that we've seen Trump himself, he has squandered, like his honeymoon period is over. The approval ratings now are back down to where they were in the first term,
low forties. You know, he has expended the sort of like political capital that he had accumulated with an impressive victory and you know, Republican wins and all of that sort of stuff like that's over and gone. So even just in terms of the political positioning, they're in much better shape. The last thing, just before we move on, because the picture has changed just in the time that
we've been speaking. The markets are now open and you can see there's you know, the that they're down a bit, So you know this is going to be who knows what things are going to look like today as we're moving forward.
But I love to.
Wall Street wraps one of the wildest weeks.
There you go, for no reason. I love giving everybody insight into what the e commerce folks want me to buy. It's always like, all right, let's let's unless you guys have some final thoughts. Let's go ahead and get to this Supreme Court ruling that was pretty significant. Anybody any last thoughts on the tariff economic piece? We're good, okay, all right, So last week on Friday, we actually got to talk to the lawyer of Kilmara Brego Garcia, Marylyn
father immigrant deported wrongfully. Administrative administration had admitted, like they called it an administrative error. He was sent to this prison, this notorious torture dungeon, Kelly's Dungeons and Salvador. And so the administration was like, yeah, we fucked up, but we're not going to do anything about it, and you can't make us. District Court judge said you need to do what you can to get him back. They said you need to facilitate and effectuate his return. Peel's Court agreed,
went to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court initially issued an administrative stay saying, okay, well, the deadline that you had to bring them back tonight, like we're putting that on hold because we're going to take a look at this. And now we have their answer. And it's pretty remarkable because all nine justices sided with the lower courts saying you have to in this warning again is key facilitate
Abrego Garcia's return from this prison in El Salvador. So again, everyone from Justice Alito and Justice Thomas to you know, Sonya Soto mayor, they all were on board with this. It's an unsigned order, and as I mentioned, these two terms are important. Effectively, what the order here from the court said is they have to facilitate his return. But the District Court needs to clarify the term effectuate to make sure that it is not overstepping its bounds with
regard to the executive's prerogative to conduct foreign policy. The lower court has now amended its order to just take out the term effectuate. So I think this is being seen rightfully so as a major victory certainly for this you know, for this individual, for his family, also an indication of you know, the Supreme Court's willingness to stand up to this administration on some fronts. But I also don't want to celebrate here to early Ryan, because what
does it technically mean to facilitate his return? Like if the Trump administration just goes to Bokelly and is like wink wink, non nod, can you send that guy back and Bekel is like, sorry, can't do it.
They can.
Can they go back to the court and be, oh, well, we tried, we did our best, and you know what what can be done? I guess he just has to stay there now and be you know, tortured and sold on for slave labor for life.
And it's also worth noting that the administration fired the attorney who submitted the brief that acknowledged the administrative error. Uh and and uh, which suggests like where they are on this situation. I wonder if it's simply that they are they do not want this guy giving interviews if he comes back and talking about the conditions of the prison that that he's been that he's been living in.
Uh.
To to prevent that, I suppose they could facilitate his return, put him in detention and then deport him somewhere, you know, just keep him definitely in attention and to try to and while they try to either get the get the stay lifted on the ability to deport him to all Salvador, or try to deport him to some other country that would that would take him, or they maybe they send
him to Guantanamo. There are all kinds of like evil options you know that Steven Miller has before him and so, which which to me means it's probably unlikely that they're going to do the non evil one, which would be our apologies, UH, please send this guy back. Uh and and then if they want to go through the deportation process. They could, you know, they could. They can do that and but you know, do it on the up and up.
One thing I wanted to flag here while you guys were talking, was this a friend of mine jaos one of your guys thoughts. My friend Jason Willik says this quote. It is probably not unintentional that the Scotus order it refers explicitly to Abrego Garcia's release from custody rather than
his return to the United States. Is that what you guys saw in this because it says the order posually requires the government to facilitate release from custody and to ensure his case is handled as it would have been had he not been in properly sent to L Salvador.
I don't think so, because the thing is he is specifically barred from being sent to El Salvador. Specifically, that was what the I have. What is it called like an order which holding order or something like that, So it's specifically That's where they messed up, is they could have gone through the court process. He has an ongoing asylum. Came a claim too that you know, his attorney at least thought that he had a good shot at being at prevailing, and whether or not that's case, we don't
really know. But you know, he had a they had found, okay, a credible fear, you can go through this asylum process. So he has an ongoing asylum case. But specifically the judge said he cannot be deforded to this particular country. So if you're just releasing him from custody, you are still in very clear blatant violation of what a US judge had prohibited and what this administration admitted they were prohibited from doing. So I think, I don't, you know,
maybe I'm missing something. I'm not a lawyer, but I think, get that doesn't follow logically to me. What to me more of the gray area is sort of similar to how the Supreme Court had ruled. Are you you can go forward for now with this Alien Enemies Act while you know this is working its way through the lower courts, but you have to provide some level of due process. They have to be able to file habeas petitions, and
they have to be given quote unquote reasonable notice. But they left it to the administration to define, well, what do we consider to be reasonable notice? So I sort of feel like this is a similar deal where it's like you're leaving it to the administration to determine what does it mean to quote unquote facilitate his return. And I think Rian is one hundred percent right. I mean, I think it's not just that they don't want him back and going on sixty minutes and talking about the reality.
I think it's also, you know, they they want to maintain the image that you know, we can just send you if you want. They want to maintain that hard line image and that there's no recourse, and they certainly don't want people really getting a sense like you know, you're they They've called him, they've alleged she's a human
trafficker and like a leader in MS thirteen. There is just zero evidence to support any of that, and so they certainly don't want the public to get a look at this, you know, seemingly innocent man with no criminal record that they sent to be indefinitely tortured.
I think it's a go ahead.
I was gonna say, sucker, is Jason making the point that they could get Mexico to accept him.
I don't, like, I just would I did not understand because I was like, weoll as an el Salvadoran citizen. I was like, so would they just release him from custody now, you know? But if if that's how the.
That seems plausible that they say, Okay, legally we can deport him to Mexico if Mexico will take him.
But he but it also says in the order though, if you want to put that back up on the screen, it also says the case has to be handled as if this had never happened. So it says the language is such like you have to pretend go back to what you would have done, and you know, handle this in the way that it would have been handled had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador. So I, you know, I certainly he can't just be deported without again some sort of due process. There was no due
process here. That would be in violation of the other thing that the Supreme Court said. That indicates you have to give these people due process.
So I have to bring back give him Ahavius petition in Texas or Louisiana or whatever right that way.
So that's what that's what's interesting about this particular case is that one of the reasons they're sending Venezuelans to Al Salvador is because obviously Venezuela is not accepting deportations.
And so I think the administration.
The error here, and it is incredibly stupid, is that they didn't realize his petition specifically was barring him from going back because of the asylum claim of credible fear.
And so I think they keep trying to make the point that they can boot people to wherever they want to boot people, so long as that country accepts them, because they're struggling to do the quote mass deportations, and one of the ways that they're able to get more deportations is having Bukel, for example, just taken people who are Venezuelan. So I mean, I wonder if they will pursue some other deportation option. I don't know the legality. I think that's what was saying.
I think the reason that they won't admit it is because it takes off the VEGNA. Right now, obviously the administration has lost a lot of credibility. I actually think Chrystal, did you guys cover the case, the MS thirteen case here in Virginia, the one where this is important where they yeah, Okay, yeah, talk.
I'm actually looking for that right now.
This is an important case because the administration keeps trying to do these flagship arrests where they'll be like this guy MS thirteen literally here not far from where I live. They arrested this guy and like he's a major leader of MS thirteen. They charged him with all of this. The Governor of Virginia was there, the Secondry of Homeland
Security was there, like this was a major event. And then in the charging documents, basically all they said in the charging documents was like, we caught him in possession of an illegal firearm. Okay, I mean, listen, fine, but that is a crime and definitely you know it'll get sent to prison, not necessarily an MS thirteen quote gang leader. And it seems that the administration now is going to
be dropping the case and instead pursuing deportation. Now, okay, like you can pursue deportation based on like, oh, he was charged or whatever with a possession of an illegal firearm, but that's pretty far from human trafficking orchestrating murders and being a gang leader. And it's pretty obvious that either a bad intelligence or b this was literally just like made up like it was a PR stunt, and I
think that is now what's happening. Where if you see in the case here of Abrego Garcia and the government has to admit in writing and then facilitate the return, everyone's going to be because there's a lot of MAGA people who are still like, oh, this doesn't matter whatever, you come here legally, et cetera. They're going to be like, well, hold on, Like if you have to bring somebody back because you screwed up, it's like, well, how many other screw ups are there in the bundle? Right?
And so to mention go ahead, I mean it just it makes it clear, like it there's nothing about this. Just grab someone and throw them in the prison. That would preclude US citizens or anyone else from being caught up in that as well. But I mean, to your point, Soccer, about this this guy like they did a whole thing and they portue he's the East Coast leader of MS thirteen. Okay, well don't you want to have that guy in prison?
Because if you just deport him and he doesn't serve any time in prison, what's to stop him from coming right back? So you know, even Fox News was given Caroline Lovett a hard time about this one because they're thinking about it from that perspective of like, if this guy's such a big criminal, like, of course you want to prosecute him. Of course you want to get him behind bars. So let me just play a little that exchange, so you guys can hear how that went down.
Can you shed some light on this because it was a story that we all covered that he was the East Coast leader of MS thirteen, So what was the evidence that supported that proclamation by the Department of Justice and the FBI.
Here at the White House, we applaud the Attorney General Pam Bondi, our FBI Director Cash Fattel for working hand in hand with local law enforcement on the ground in the Commonwealth of Virginia to detain and arrest this MS thirteen ring leader. There was sufficient evidence to do so, and now the case is in the hands of the Department of Homeland Security, who will be deporting this individual
from our country. These agencies are working together in a collaborative way to follow President Trump's directive to eradicate MS thirteen and foreign terrorists from United States soil. So this is an individual who was detained and arrested because of the President's policies, and he will no longer be residing in the.
United States of America.
I'm trying to get same for similarity on it, Caroline, because you know, if indeed he is what we were told he is, the East Coast leader of MS thirteen, wouldn't it make sense to prosecute him for crimes related to that. I know he was held on a gun charge, but to make sure that any victims of MS thirteen through his leadership, get their day in court here in the United States and then send him to an El Salvador in prison if he is deported and found guilty on those crimes.
Well, again, this administration is doing things differently, Martha. And this President has made a directive to his agencies, but particularly the Department of Homeland Security, to remove foreign terrorists from America's homeland to protect American citizens. And we have an incredible diplomatic relationship with the President of El Salvador and his government who have been detaining these MS thirteen
ring leaders and violent gang members in their prisons. And American taxpayers don't have to foot the bill for that cost.
And so again the bottom line here in court said that the Alien and Act could be used to remove people, but they had to reach to do process first. I'm only pressing on this because it was a huge story and we covered it. Obviously, it would feel like that person could lead to a lot of other evidence. The DJ would be pressing to see this in court so that other people could be exposed. And suddenly none of that's happening. So can you explain why the change of course in this particular case.
She doesn't explain the change of course, But in any case that's you know, in Fox News like okay, if this guy's such a big deal, what are we doing?
I do at least appreciate that because they got fooled, right. They sent camera crews out there like they took it seriously. They covered the arrest, They made this into a huge thing, and you're like, so what, you just drugged me out there to cover a gun charge. You know how many gun charges there aren't this country. It's like, be serious, right,
and okay, you want to deport somebody for a gun charge? Okay, yeah fine, but you know, be going around federal cases like acting like this is some rico mo boss and then just saying Oh, actually we're going to drop the case. We don't actually have to prove any of this stuff in court. There's a huge credit. I'm going to use an old school Vietnam term which Ryan will love. Credibility gap. There's a credibility gap that is opening with this white house.
Wait until Fox News gets a hold of Drop Site. This is me teeing it over to Ryan because that's what should really be infuriating, I mean infuriates me the way there are clearly deals being struck and these guys are being used as pawns on a bigger drug.
Yet Ryan, Yeah, story. Note, I still don't fully get it, So can you just explain it?
So basically, what's going on here? And we don't know if that's this is exactly what's going on with this kid yet because he's twenty four and so Boo Kelly and MS thirteen struck a deal back around twenty nineteen where bou Kelly would give better prison conditions to MS thirteen members who were already locked up and other, you
know other. You can see this story that jose A VARs and I wrote for Drop Site News, and in exchange, they would stop killing and kidnapping people, and this is not an uncommon tactic among South American or in Central American presidents to FMLN had tried to do the same thing, like back in twenty eleven or.
Something like that.
Part of the deal was that then MS thirteen would support bou Kelly in his next election, and they did that, and he woned a landslide, and then you saw this kind of breakdown of the deal and he, you know, he's become this much more aggressive, you know, anti gang dude, and so he has he has denied up and down that these negotiations ever took place, but the negotiations absolutely did take place, and so there has been this push and pull tug of war between the US and Bukelly.
Bu Kelly wants all of the MS thirteen members who know about these negotiations in his dungeon. He does not want them in open court in the United States talking openly about the negotiations that they had with Bukelly, which are a real lightning rod, a real political lightning rod. In El Salvador, they wouldn't get attention here, but if they had testifying court up here in the United States, it would get a lot of coverage. In El Salvador,
and he generally has the media locked down. But if this, you know, the media would cover something that happened in a US courtroom in El Salvador. So this would be a big problem for him. So that the price that Bukelly demanded to take these venezuelans was, I also want these MS thirteen guys that I've been trying to get from you and that you've been keeping from me. And so that's why we sent MS thirteen people along with
along with these venezuelans, so and what. And in order to send them, they had to dismiss the charges, and they did that with a bunch of them, you know, back when they first sent them down. So that's what this looks like. We don't know the details yet. He would have been like eighteen when these negotiations were going on, so maybe he has knowledge of the negotiations subsequent or they just stitched up some random guy in Virginia and
the thing is all now falling apart. But that's the backdrop that it could be part of this MS thirteen leadership round up that Bukelly wants Trump to help him effectuate and facilitate.
Interesting wow, crazy stuff.
Emily you're muted, you're mutiated, Emily not working. Okay, it's all good. All right, Let's talk quickly here about mack Mud Khalil, because this was important too. So you know, the administration has made it pretty clear for a while that, I mean, they have never said that Mackmud Khalil, who of course was the Columbia student legal permanent resident Green card holder who was arrested by Ice and shipped down to was he Louisiana. I believe he was shipped down to.
And he was the real first big high profile case of like, anyone who's anything about Israel that we didn't like, we're going to round them up. If they're you know, here on a visa or a Green card holder or whatever, we're going to round them up, and we're going to detain them and we're going to deport them. He was
the first big, high profile example of that. And the administration has never argued that he committed any crimes, even though many of their defenders have insinuated or insisted that this was because of a legal activity, they have never indicated that. And so the court has been asking them to provide their evidence of why they believe that he should be deported and effectively, you know they they so the government files you know this, this submission, and there
is really no there there. I've got the key paragraph here, he says, pursuant to these authorities, I've determined the activities and presence of these aliens the US would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences, would compromise a compelling US
foreign policy interest. These determinations are based on information provided by the DHS ice HSI regarding the participation and role of someone else we don't know and Khalil in anti Semitic protests and disruptive activities which foster a hostile environment for Jewish students in the US. My determination for the other person is also based on some other citations for unlawful activity during these protests. But that's not Khalil, that's
this other person. They're claiming engagement unlawful activities. The public actions and continued presence of these two in the US undermine US policy to combat anti Semitism around the world in the US, in addition to efforts to protect Jewish students from harassment and violence in the United States. So literally, the only thing that they cite here for Makmu Khalil Sager is his participation in what they describe as anti Semitic protests and disruptive activities.
Mm. Interesting, isn't It definitely also fits with our anti Semitic screening that we're doing. Now, Ryan, I'm sure you saw that story. Oh wait, do we have the ice thing? I haven't gotten to react to this yet. The thing about ideas ideas, Ryan, you talk while I pull it up. Let me find that. No, Like, yeah, they they asked.
They were told they have to come up with some evidence that he did something wrong.
What's your case?
Why is this permanent resident married to an American citizen whose wife is about to give birth in like, in indefinite detention without charge? And yeah, they they finally came back with because Marco Rubio can lock up anybody who he wants, who isn't a citizen for any reason. And the reason that he's claiming.
Is that he's.
Anti Semitic, which is which is wild because you he could bring if they actually wanted to try that, which apparently they don't think they have to. He could bring countless. It sounds like Jewish colleagues of his from Columbia, right, yeah, to bet anti semitism.
Like attesting to his character. And you know he was going to shop at dinners. He was fighting antisemit. When there was somebody who did say something anti anti simitic, he was the first to intervene. So pullar opposite of the way that he's being portrayed, right, which just.
To argue, well, if you're critical of Israel, we we we believe that that is anti semitism.
Bingo exactly. Let's so as you guys could see herround the screen. This was a real thing that was put out by Ice. Quote. If it crosses the border illegally, it's our job to stop it. People, money products, Okay, okay, I understand ideas. Hold on a second, what whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa?
Right, we talked about that last one.
What was that last one? Ideas, Like, what does that mean exactly if it crosses our border illegally? Ideas, how does an idea illegally cross the s border? And now we're entering some difficult, difficult territory, aren't we, Ryan, And that's where the car. Yeah, in the trunk of our car, I've got your shine, Bob.
Ideas, what's like the biggest apparently, Yeah, magic does this woman have? Though for real, I don't know. We're all referring to this Trump in the Oval office was like, she's a fantastic woman. She's doing a great job. We had a wonderful time. She has she's very dignified, she's.
Very elegant, very elegant. I think it probably just has good Probably is just a good dipple match. Probably talks to them while on the phone. I mean, honestly, I can't really think of an alternative. But Emily, we're talking about Ice saying that they want to stop dangerous ideas from entering the country. We just put that graphic up from yesterday, and you're just.
It's and that's the thing. It's like, it's the most obvious point to make. But can you imagine if the Biden Harris administration had done crazy half like you cannot have but there would be such a mount on over it, and understandably so, like it is truly Unamerican. It is a truly Unamerican thing to say and position to hold. And then the fact that you are clearly we also just push put up the machmun Khalil court filing. That's like h he was at a protest. That's why we're
going to deport him. No allegations of illegality. No, even I thought they'd come up with something he said that was a little edgy, you know, that they could put in the butt. No, none of that.
Just like he was, they even put like people from the river to the sea. They didn't even be like the well known anti Semitic phrase from the river to the sea.
Well that is their definition.
Well, I mean it said like even by their own definition, right, so they've accepted that definition. So they haven't even used that successfully to I mean, it's just.
The ideas thing.
If you flip it around and you see the Biden administration coming in and using this on Christians or people who are opposed like turfs.
I mean, it's just like the possibilities are endless. The mind boggles, but they do need work.
We need more turfs. Oh, by all means I call for more turf, but I mean.
That this is so.
When I was I was reading through the document that they submitted an evidence, the Rubio memo, I was just like, it's so it's not surprising, but they really do have nothing.
Well, and Ryan, they had said some something maybe Pam Bondie, I don't remember. One of these people said that the reason he was being deported was because he aligned with Hamas. This document doesn't even mention Hamas, right.
No, good point the DHS spokeswoman, Yeah, Tricia McLaughlin who said that.
Right, They can't even prove that.
That's what I was.
Funny, you know where Tricia came from. She used to work for a vague mister ideas and mister debate. I'm just saying, you know, some of us, some of us remember things these are. It's a curse to actually remember anything in this business and just be like, what the talking you imagine?
Mix up?
Yeah, it's like he went from that to uh, miss idea, mister we need to ban ideas? And well, can I such a great point, Crystal about the Hamas. Thing is they didn't even mention that. They just said he was anti Semitic. Go ahead, Emily, Well no, but.
That's why this is also frustrating because christ So, do you remember we interviewed Mama du Taal on the show.
Back in Well.
His case is interesting because after he had gotten his visa, he had been tweeting things about how the US Empire he hates the US Empire. His goal in life is bringing down the US Empire. And he's like the one person from all of these cases like oz Turk for example, and op Ed. He's the one person from all these cases where like granted he'd said all of that after he got the visa up. I was like, could you
have sussed that out in your interviews with him? Like did you know that he wasn't super pro America when you've said, here's a student visa, Like there are arguments that would be within the realm of like reasonable debate, and these are not them. These are like insane examples of op eds and trying to tie him to these posters that were handed out at protests, trying to tie him to protests that got like violent.
He was he wasn't there.
It wasn't wasn't with Khalil. Wasn't there also an allegation that he had lied on his green card application or something like that. He admitted that's not here either.
Yeah, he admitted that there.
Was something about for the I thought it was the U n like Unra.
I thought it was the UK embassy.
Because he had a joint job, like he had a UK security clearance while he was working for unra mm hm, which like I can't imagine why, like working for the UK would be disqualifying for an America like somebody applying for as the something.
Maybe he's a spook. What if he's a spook.
But he's a he's a there's a British spy is double O seven?
Yes, they should put that in the application for his you know why he should be But it was wait, it was thinner. I knew it would be thin because right, the right has been digging through everything this man has ever said to try to come up with something to paint him. It's like always an anti Semitic, terrorist, loving monster, and they came up with nothing. So I knew it would be thin. This was thinner even than I expected,
because I thought they'd have the thing in there. Oh he was lying on his application and know he said from the River to the Sea, and oh, here's a Hummus pamphlet. Remember Caroline Levitt did that whole thing. Of course, I can't even bring that literature into the briefing room because it was horrible. That was now, yeah, for sure, the horrible literature that we you know, can't even like the innocence of the American people.
We saw.
Men.
It's a delicate flower.
I actually wanted to see it. I was like, yeah, you know, it'd be great. Actually I was. But yeah, that's all right, that's what that's what I need my government for. We moved to Dave Smith. You talk about Dave Okay, I got ready to lips. So what do you guys want to start with? Do you want to start with his lived experience thing about how you have to be able to have been to Israel?
Yeah?
Before you talk about okay.
Can we just say, though, at off the top here, that what happened in this conversation is that Douglas Murray, who probably was under enormous pressure from pro Israel folks and people who are pro Ukraine and neo conservatives, just stand up to Joe Rogan. He starts the interview by asking Joe Rogan if he can ask him a question about why he doesn't so, I just it's sort of
like the Oval Office meeting. That is genuinely important context for this three hour conversation is that it started with Douglas Murray challenging Joe Rogan about why he has he had Carroll.
Yeah, yeah, he coming into this. He's mad at Joe. He's snippy and he's or what what did Trump say? Yippy? Yep, he's yippy at Joe for quote not having enough pro Israel or pro Ukraine folks on the show, which by the way, is not even true. They're just a lot.
He didn't even know some of the guests. Yeah, Joe tick off all these guys. He's like, I think God's sad.
He says, I've had pro Israel folks and you know this one guy and I can't remember his name. And you're like, oh, if you can't even remember the name of the guy, you're calling anti Semitic. But okay, well anyway, So what he does in the beginning is he first of all, starts off with chastising Rogan for not having enough pro pro you folks would.
Preposterous so much if a guest came on our show and was like, actually, I think here's how you should produce your show, here's how you should do your job, Like there is no worse way to start a conversation with with anyone.
Let's start with that of hosting. I Carrol like he just had no relationship and was a little bit.
It was a little bit off. I thought Joe handled it really well and it turned into a.
Pretesting DISCUSSI Joe really held as cool. And I will say that Douglas is one of the smarmiest people I've ever seen on this because he spends the entire thing trying to but he tries to attack Smith's character, basically lies that Dave Smith is doing this for views or for clicks. Ridiculous. Dave has been in this business for a long time. Dave's most viral moment is not even anything to do with Israel. It's about vaccines from five
years ago. Not that Douglas would know anything about any of that, but he's like, oh, Dave, your shtick is Israel, right, like implying that he's doing this for career purposes. Someone should tell me that because I don't remember my career
between all that well because of any Israel criticism. In fact, it's the opposite of mister Murray, who went from you know, this flitting about neo conservative has been to you know, a little flack jacket tour vests all over Israel and so protectionization, right, that's the context is the concern trolling
about quote expertise, and we'll get to that. But the really the best part was this where he tries to use a literal, woke style argument of if you've never been to Israel, then you're not allowed to talk about it. Dave handled himself incredibly well, in my opinion, in this back and forth. So let's go ahead and take a listen to.
Some of it with no deficit of goods coming in. I've been plenty of No there, there are plenty. How have you been to the crossing points? When we ask there at all, I've never been. You've never been?
Well, I'm not am I not allowed to talk about it?
Now?
Have you ever been to? Have you ever been to Nazi Germany? Are you allowed to have? You can't time travel, but you can't? Okay, but so what, so what's the point? Like, No, I find that lots of people have been there and agree with me, and lots of people have been there and agree with you.
I don't want to spend a year and a half talking about about a place you should at least do the courtesy of visiting it, all right.
I just think this is a non argument. Okay, No, I think it's a non argument. But you have to go and touch the ground. I think you have to see.
I think it's a good idea to see stuff, particularly if you spend a career talking about something. Yes, I have a journalistic rule of try never to talk about a country, even in passing, unless I've at least been there. Okay, it's normal, it's a normal thing to do. You're talking about Hang on, you're talking about crossing points, and not only have you never been to a crossing point in either Egypt or in Israel, but you never even been to the region. Okay, it's not a non ars is.
It's not a non argument if you're insisting that you're an expert of some kind or not claiming you're an expert, but still talking about it, about the provisions going into Gaza or not. If you've never seen any of this going on, so.
You're not amazing about things that you've read about. You can only speak about things that you've seen with your own eyes. You can talk about what you want as you're proving.
But that is a different matter from spending an awfully long amount of time talking about an issue in a region you haven't even had the to see the visit.
Well.
Developing all of these views about it. I mean an idea where you're coming from. You've read about this blockade, and so you imagine that that's what it is. I imagine you've read all the people who say that Gaza was a concentration camp.
All right, we can call it there. This This is the dumbest form of argumentation. And there's there's a layer to this too. I actually texted this to Dave and I was like, I kind of wish you'd said this, Douglas. Yeah, I just want to be like, hey, Douglas, why do you think you got to go to the crossing points? My guy? Is it because you're on an ISRAELI bebe sponsored tour to go in to see this so that you go on the biggest platform in the world and
say everything is fine. Why don't we call Ryan, Why don't you enlighten me and call as you have, some of the people who live there and tell me what they have to say who are not members of Go ahead, Ryan, tell me what the people who were on the other side of that crossing point have to say.
They say they can't find food. Oh okay, and he got it, and they have phone numbers. Has has he spoken to them.
Has he have you ever been to Gaza, Douglas, have you ever been to Gaza? He shouldn't say anything about.
They blocked on March second, they said we're not letting any AID in.
They said it publicly.
Why does God Dave Smith need to go fact check the claims by the Israeli government and the Palestinians on the other side confirmed it. We have both sides saying we're not letting AID in.
But if Dave doesn't weird, go ahead, grissol. It does remind me so much of like it truly is like a very woke reminiscent argument because one of the things the tactics that is used to shut down debate is like, well, if you're not a member of that marginalized group, you can't speak on issues related to that marginalized group. And I'm not going to say that there's nothing too like hearing someone's quote unquote lived experience, but that is a common tactic to just say you're not allowed to have
a say at all. Don't care what you've read, don't care what your opinion is, what your moral compasses, don't care if you don't have these particular characteristics you don't get to weigh in. I've always objected to that, whether it was on the woke side, and it's the exact
same thing here. It's also very like, you know, I don't know if he's all if he's always debated this way, but it's a very Puresborgan panel debate tactic to just they spend so much time just like attacking each other's character.
You're a racist, you're an anti semi, you haven't even been there, and you know, it's the type of thing that can play well in that format when you just have like fifteen minutes of yelling to filibuster and try to like out alpha the people on the panel, But when you actually have to sit there and explain yourself for hours on end, and everyone gets a chance to see Dave be like, this is a non argument, what
are you talking about? It doesn't quite hit the same way as when you're just on some like Piers Morgan yellfest.
Well that's really interesting because they actually started the entire podcast by Joe saying, the reason we wanted to do this is because so many of these debates are held on shows like Piers Morgan, and basically it's so theatrical and it's actually somewhat so it's expert it's just this deification of expertise, which is very disappointing from Douglas Murray, by the way, who on wokeness, on media corruption, all
of that. He actually was with Tayibi side by side in an Intelligent Square debate against Malcolm Gladwell and Ryan Calmness in New York Times.
Michelle Goldberg and wiped the floor with.
Malcolm Gladwell and Michelle Goldberg and Douglas Murray did some heavy lifting in abs excoriating the corporate media.
And its corruption.
And here he's flipping around and saying that because Dave lacks expertise. My favorite moment of this entire conversation is when Dave goes, I'm a free American.
I can say whatever I want.
And I just was like felt like wrapped in the American flag was going to like shotgun a. Miller lte when he said that it was glorious, because that's his point. His point is that the audience is smart enough to make up their own minds if they are listening to a comedian who's really interested in history or a you know, ex military guy who's really interested in history do thirty hours of a podcast. The audience is smart enough to
make up their minds to do additional research. They don't need to be protected by expert gatekeepers in every situation. And it's just I found it very unfortunate to see that flipped again.
It's also very selective because it's not enough. So he's decided Dave Smith's not expert. But he's also decided that is not sufficient for Dave Smith to read experts.
Yes, exactly have studied this.
Been to the region, et cetera. So it's, you know, it's all very selective and very convenient when you get to be the expert. What when the expert opinion matters and can factor in and when it doesn't in his view.
Yes, this is the expertise part of whist which drive drove me crazy. And so there's a specific, you know part of this. Let's take a listen to that.
Do also think that one of the bigger kind of the bigger picture dynamics to all of this is that we have at least since nine to eleven, been in a state of perpetual war, and all of these wars have been disasters. They have been so many lies involved in selling all of them. I mean, the whole Iraq war, the whole war in Afghanistan, lying the whole way through.
I mean I remember literally having conversations with green Brays in the middle of the war in Afghanistan, and they're like, George W. Bush is telling you that the army we're building up there is really successful. This thing's going to fall in a week without us. And then all through the Obama administration it's just like lie after lie after lie with disastrous wars. And so this does create a fertile ground for people to say I wonder if they
were lying about all these wars. Sure, again, I'm not really trying to argue about World War Two.
I'd rather argue about the wars.
I think the interesting question is whether you're busy watering it.
We should you not talk about mistakes that were made overall?
Absolutely?
Okay, you should absolutely right all four go back and looking at missus.
So what are you what is your argument?
Then it's a very weird thing to go back zone in on a man say this one thing is a mistake and should characterize him, and you ignore everything.
You're taking him out of context. Why when you're talking about Darryl.
Who's done what was it, thirty plus hours?
So what thirty plus hours? But you take it, you do that in a week.
Yeah, but it's a very it's very very different. It's very different.
He's not doing a podcast like talking to.
People, Okay, nor is he doing scholarly work, nor is he working in the archives. Clearly, come on, I mean this is he is not the historian of our era.
He's not complaining to me the historian jelly, but.
Work.
What I'm saying because I don't need to consume endless versions of revisionist history.
I understand this vision history. Okay, So that was about the Darryl Cooper thing. But that pop part I found very illuminating is this he produced thirty hours of part He goes, so what you do that? And it's like Douglas is acting as if he is like one of the professors at Oxford that he got his undergraduate degree in English from. You were not that, bro. You have written books about multiple different subjects. You are the definition of like a journalist. Yeah, Dylan, you're little. Yeah, you
are an influencer diletant. You are a literal diletante who flits about the world, writes neo conservatism and why we need it and now madness of crowds and the strange death of your It's like, are you a fucking expert on immigration? Are you an expert on Western civilization?
Because you yeah, have you been to the mortar listen? He said he didn't listen. He said he didn't listen.
It's sheer arrogance. And you know, Ryan, that was another thing that I really found about these ziobots, like uh Murray, is that this guy is pushing like completely debunked stuff about October seventh, like it was fact, Like he talked about like mass rape on October seventh, he was like this close to talking about the baby's thing, right, And it was so obvious to me that he has not engaged with any even like surface level Horretz level criticism
of Israel. And that is his expertise, right, His EXPERTI is that he's been there. It's just the purest form of wokeism, of like concern trolling about expertise when you yourself have absolutely none. And I will say, like outside of Twitter, like Zionist Twitter, if you go look at the YouTube comments or the general reaction or anything. This Murray's getting cooked.
People can see this level of like sneering and concern trolling, and just people are like, oh, I wasn't in the studio with Douglas, so I can't have an opinion about how much of a dickhead he was, you know, just like like that's the level of argumentation that he has, you know that he brings us down to.
It's ridiculous and it is comical in one breath to say that, you know, Dave can't comment on Israel because he hasn't been there, but he can comment on a podcast that he's never listened to, right, because I actually disagree with the other point, Like you actually probably should listen to a podcast if you're going to have an opinion on the podcast.
Right because you actually thing of having opinion on the podcast is like the content of the pop podcast. That's kind of the whole thing if you want to.
And nobody has done like listen, I disagree with Darryl on Churchill. I just game with him on a lot, but if you listen to the podcast, absolutely nobody is doing what he is doing the level and Joe pointed this out. His fear and loathing and New Jerusalem starts from the emotional, visceral perspective of Jews who are fleeing pegroms. It's just absurd to act as though that is being put in the box of Pat Buchanan. It's not Pap Buchanon. It draws from Pap Buchanan, but it's not Pap Buchanan.
And you don't know that unless you listen to it.
That's another thing. I'm not even gonna go into the By the way, I love Darryl. Darrel's one of my brothers. Yes, I disagree with him. I actually text him often and be like, dude, you're totally wrong about all this. He's, you know, the guy who will send me books, obscure books about that he has on the Battle of Singapore, and so that you know, it's beyond the.
Character a beautiful friendship.
It is a beautiful friendship, just like Shinebaum and Trump, but like beyond even the like surface level criticism find if people want to have it for me? Is that arrogance of Murray and a lot of these pro Israel folks who resort to the most ad hominem and emotional attacks concern trolling about expertise, and then someone like you, Ryan, who actually has reporting expertise like knowledge and all that
of the region is dismissed completely out of hand. And if someone like Dave, who is a consumer of your work or of Horetz or any of that, is laughed out of the room. You know, the idea is, you know, and I genuinely would say this is that the mean critic of Israel and of Israeli policy, and I mean this in the commentariat space, in my opinion, is ten times more informed on the conflict than anybody who is just mindlessly sucking up their propaganda about October seventh or
the war in Gaza or the ends, you know. I mean. The other thing that I found preposterous, Ryan, is that throughout the podcast he's like Qatar is pumped money into our university system. Ryan, does he even know that Netan Yahoo is literally facing right, notch an allegation over probably not, That's my point. He doesn't even know anything about the place that he spent so much time.
Right And that's a huge It's like the number one story in Israel right now. But it's structurally, if you are on the Dave Smith side, you you must constantly engage with the pro Israel side because it is it is the water that we're swimming in. If you are on Murray's side, you can actually just not read drop site. You cannot watch this program, like you can seal yourself
off and just never encounter that. And so that's how you wind up with people repeating things that everyone already knows has been actually debunked by like even say like the BBC or somebody, but like not done it in a high profile enough way that it penetrated the pro Israel bubble.
So or they do.
There and they just want to and they just lie and don't expect to get called on it because it's emotionally uncomfortable to be like, well, actually there wasn't a mass rape on October seventh, and then you look like you're, you know, being a Hamas apologist or whatever. Like there's some of that going on too. Let's not deny that many of these people are happy to just lie or just believe a reality even though it's been debunked, you know, because it fits with their view of what's going on here.
And I just want to drill down on this point a little bit more. I mean, two things. Number one, it seems to me, I didn't watch the whole podcast. I just watched the clips that you showed, so I don't I don't want to opine on a podcast that, by the.
Way, listen to Crystal Don't subserve three hours everything you need.
But you know, with the invoking of Ian Carroll, the invoking of Darryl it also feels like, rather than dealing with the arguments of the person who's right in front of you, you want to construct a straw man of you know, I mean Ian Carroll. There are some things, Daryl Cooper, there are definitely some things. Okay, they're not there. Dave Smith is there? What is his argument? Deal with his arguments rather than these other superfluous people who have
been in the Joe Rogan podcast universe. Okay, that's number one. Number two, I want to say this since this view and this is the same thing I said when the argument's about you can't have an opinion on certain things if you're not part of that marginalized group whatever it is, fundamentally anti democratic, small de democratic. Our government is sending our money to bomb these babies. We're not allowed to have an opinion because we haven't fucking been there, Are
you kidding me? Seriously, we're all about to pay taxes, taxes are doing what four days? Yeah, we can't have an opinion on that. B for real, we are obligated, obligated to have an opinion on what our government is doing in our name with our money to a trapped, starved, bombed population. We like, if you are a citizen who cares about the direction of the country in the world,
yes you should have an opinion about that. And it doesn't require you going to the region, going to Israel, going on Bebe's press tour, going to the crossings, auditing what goods or No, you get to have an opinion because this is a fucking allegedly democracy. So that is why that thing pisces me off so much. And especially this is the way also by the way that like liberal Zionist shut people down too. Oh it's complicated and you just don't understand. This is what they do on
you know, monetary policy, This is complicated. Just let the experts handle it. You just don't know.
I've got this all of the time. On gender stuff, like from the from the left all.
The time, and in too many genders. You understand.
Well, no, it's very similars.
You are not are you Are you a neuroscientist? Are you a biologist? Yeah? Are you a psychiatrist? No, it's it's it's a thing. That's a thing. It's just like this blocking with the expertise.
I look, I think that we experts are important. I think it is really important to have people who have deeply studied fields medicine, science, history. I think it is important to take in that information. But they can't tell you what your values are, right, They can't like chew up your democratic food and spit it in your mouth and eat it for you Like, you have to engage with that content and think about the world for yourself. And yes, you are allowed to do that. That is
like the base. That is like the foundation upon which this country is allegedly built. And we follow shor in many many ways. But when you just when you try to dumb down the population, don't worry your pretty little head. The experts over here they get it. You don't. It's too complicated. You don't get to have an opinion that is fundamentally anti democratic, It is anti populous. It is like the you know, I am just repulsed by that
whole direction. And by the way, way, think of when Dave Smith is talking about these experts that got us into the Iraq war, right, how did that go? These experts who you know kept us in Afghanistan for decades? How did that go? These experts that were part of you know, deregular and financial industry. He didn't make these arguments on making these arguments and crash the entire like
global economy. How did that go? How has deferring to experts and not worrying your pretty little head about these overly complicated topics, how has that worked out?
Yeah, COVID, you know, we can go on for it.
Well, Douglas talked about COVID and that Taibi debate, if I'm remembering correctly. And the last thing i want to say is that I'm sympathetic to a point that Douglas makes about losing the forest for the trees. I think that's sometimes what we get into when we're debating like gallipoly campaign and Churchill and all of that.
I guess, oh, yeah, keep Gallipo out of your mouth. Yeah, but you know what.
I'm saying, You're not an expert. Amalie I wasn't there, but I.
Think that we said we do sometimes lose the forest for the trees, because some of these trees have not been you know, have not been well evaluate evaluated over the course of the last century, and so in revisiting them and saying, oh, the experts lied, we sometimes assume that when we're looking at a tree, we're looking at the whole forest, or we get lost.
Man. This is a tortured metaphor. So I'm sympathetic to that point.
But the problem is the experts are the ones that continue to just completely lose trust because they're wrong about certain things, and then so to defer to experts, to say the experts got COVID wrong, expert, but then to defer to them on Ukraine and Israel and act like anybody who is challenging those official narratives is siding with anti Semites or with Putin.
It is so unfortunate and it's very telling.
I think that's a great place to leave it. I think, great show, everybody, thanks for having me.
Well it was too, It's nice having the whole crew or any last anything, last Ryan in particular, are you looking at anything working on any reporting you want to you want to highlight.
Oh no, I should send this to Phil Emily. But a very cool story in drop set that we published yesterday afternoon. Interview with a top Hoothy leader who basically responding to Trump and Hexath, who said, Hey, if the Hoothi stop bombing American ships, will stop bombing the Houthis. And they told drop Site, we will stop bombing American ships. Then if you'll stop bombing us, they said, we will continue to bomb Israeli ships.
They're not allowed, they're not walking through. But American ship's fine.
We have no problem with America. So now the question will be did Trump and Hegseth mean Israeli ships under the definition of our ships?
We all know the answer to that. Yeah, we know that, but it's good to have it clarified. Indeed. All right, guys, thank you so much. Thanks to everybody out there. Appreciate you.
Guys.
We're gonna have some announcements next week. I'm just going to tease that, some big announcements all around, So stay tuned for that and have a great weekend. We will see you back here Monday.