2/7/25: Steve Bannon WH Correspondent On Elon, Trump, GOP Infighting!!

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As somebody who is generally supportive of Maga in there pressing the White House Press Secretary of an opportunity to do it, how are you thinking about that?

We are forthright and our support for President Trump, And I'm aware that maybe that's hard to square with the idea of like being a journalist.

I don't want to be a Trump cheerleader for four years.

I don't really find any intellectual merit in doing that either, if you can tell, like I love digging into documents, I don't like standing there and being like Oh my.

Gosh, we took over Gossa.

I look at what Elon Musk is doing getting rid of Usai, the amazing, cathartic, beautiful, a masterpiece. At the same time, you now have like a genuine oligarch running loose in the government.

Yeah.

I don't think it's great to have unelected billionaires running any government agency. But spare me, mainstream media the performative outrage that you guys either a care about the constitution or me that you care about unelected bureaucrats or billionaires running government. So it's the framing of it. I sort of rejected.

Right over here at Counterpoints. You know that we like to have long form conversations with people in the journalist ministry, find out where they came from, where they're going. Independent journalists, independent, independent.

Journalists Foratus, corporate apparatus.

We had Ezra New York Times loves to call itself independent. That's true, which it technically is technically like they own themselves. That's right, fair enough. We have my dropsite colleague Jeremy Scahill and Matt Tibon. That was a fun one. Today we've got another fun one. We're joined by Natalie Winters, who is the White House correspondent for the war Room podcast.

Thank you so much for joining us.

And I just want to say I think one blind spot in DC, especially among Republicans, and maybe you've run into this snadly. I'm curious. This might be a good place to start to start. They don't realize.

How powerful war Room is.

If you look at the podcast charts, war Room is routinely near the very very top. It is an extremely.

Powell about the numbers, like sure, with an internal look because it does seem like because when you guys ask your posse or what asked the posse to do? Stuff like the phone lines melt down, so the numbers got to be big. What can you put some like what are your highest numbers? What are your average numbers?

Sure?

Sure, I feel like it's a dark moment when you just called me a journalist to be.

Independent, Right, I guess I got it. I got to accept it.

Look, I think our audience is so powerful for two reasons, quality and quantity. What do I mean by that? We're first and foremost a TV show. We're on Real America's Voice, which is in I think nine million plus homes.

I think our average viewership average is.

At least around seven hundred thousand plus or mine is probably a few hundred thousand. But that's just people who are watching on a traditional TV that excludes all streaming, all Rumble, all Twitter.

Live, watching lives Honest TV.

Yeah yeah, but that's.

Not including like I said, Rumble, which is another you know, sixty thousand or so Twitter, the clips that go viral after everything like that. So it's just a massive audience. But to the quality. And I don't mean that our viewers are better than yours. I just mean in terms of engagement and grassroots activism, there really has never been I think a more impactful or powerful audience. I would say,

It's Steve A. K. Bannon's war room. But they will do it.

I've literally met audience members who take days off of work to make phone calls, to call the Senate, to call members of Congress, and in some ways I think it's interesting. Actually, just last night they had Azra Eleven of Indivisible on Rachel Mattaw talking about their sort of resistance tactics, right, and they want to be burning down the phone lines, they want to be writing off.

Eds in the local papers.

They have a very systematic sort of characterization of how to push back.

Through their manuals.

And I think war Room has sort of culturally appropriated a lot of the LEFS tactics, which I guess if goes back to sort of McConnell in the early like two thousands, right, so you know, you kind of a debate over whose tactics they were. But I think Steve Bannon has really capitalized on the art of the phone call. And you know, I'm friends with a lot of members. They're always texting us saying thank you for giving us the cover to stand in the breach, to hold the line,

Real, no, no, no doubt about it. It seemed like the audience got steamrolled a bit by Musk in the So let's talk. Let's start, well, actually, let's start with the daily mail attack on you, because I think that's a lot of people. That's what a lot of people are going to be curious about. Put up this. You can put up this first element and then we'll get to some more serious stuff. So if you're just listening to this on the podcast, that this is a daily

And before let me also ask because it was a lot deeper than how you look, how you look, and maybe you can win on this. It was even just the fact of you being there was controversial to the old guard, who really is uncomfortable.

And in the old guard's defense, like, as you just said yourself, you're brand new in thinking of yourself even as a journalist. Yeah, sure, so you can imagine other journalists are like waiting.

And then look, I think the way you framed it is the right way, right the buried lead. The significant angle of the story is that new media is in there in oppressed briefing room that for so long has sort of been an active or really I think just sort of propaganda esque in terms of not answering real questions, kicking out journalists that they disagree with, and now President Trump and Caroline Levet are taking historic steps to put

A bigger and bigger thing.

It was like article after article after article, and the Kennedy piece, which I think is a ridiculous accusation to say that I was dressed like a hostess at Hooters.

I don't think Kashmir sweater with like Oli I was gonna say.

I think like all of Fox has that, Alison olivia'sweat it's like the most basic, Like I'm very basic. It's the most basic swetner that exists. I think that was obviously outlandish, but more precisely, I just think it's sort of what Rather going back to the original story, they had said that I was being slammed on Instagram in comments for saying that I was dressed and appropriately. I've gone through my comments the typical haters who will always

Some good looking chick because you.

Know whatever, and it's it's an annoying story too to I think engage with. I mean, for starters, I think our show has been deplatformed, decensored, demonetor like everything. They only threw my boss in wet prison for four months, so we're used to the attacks. So you know, a daily mail criticized criticism on my outfit kind of peels in comparison. But I just think more broadly, it sort of represents really an effort to just delegitimize us. And now I feel every time that I walk into the

Like who are you? And I get it.

It's as and I respect that, but I do think that my presence being there, what we were just talking about, in terms of warroom's viewership, it sort of holds a mirror to their face, and I think it raises more broadly the question, which is something we always dive into at warroom, which is sort of the idea of credentialism or the idea of like what even is the mainstream media and why they're referred to as the mainstream media because we trounce them in viewership, and if you look

Where I'm sitting here saying like.

Sorry, I wore a sweater, like sorry, I'm blonde, and I'm like, that's so and it cracks me up too, And I know I'm rambling but in the stories, but it really cracks me up because, like, for your audience who's not familiar with me, my background was in investigative reporting. I was the person who had no social life. All I did was stay up and go through like pharophilings and the Federal Register and USA Spending dot gov and

I always referred myself.

As like an autistic in so like I love researching, and it was just funny to be portrayed as something that I so don't view myself as, but then like deciding how to push back against. It was my first time ever really being smeared as something that I just felt so desperate from.

Do some more. Let's hear some more background, like where you came from?

Sure?

Sure?

Like yeah, so where'd you grow up? And how'd you become political for the first time?

Sure?

So, I was born and raised in Los Angeles in Santa Monica, and my parents were conservative, but more run of the mill kind of like a politically conservative, like just default, like oh I just don't really want to pay taxes like the classic trope. But I was fortunate enough to go to a very Democrats.

Now are they still? No?

No, they're still My mom is like a Mike Lindell super fan.

She's watched too much more room. My dad's maybe not so much. On the bipillage right now.

But I was very blessed to have gone to probably one of the most prestigious high schools in certainly California, in the country, Harvard Westlake.

Which is Zebra Alex Marlow. Yes andlia Han.

I was going to say, this is this is not uncommon in abandoned world that you come from.

The defects from Oweden's public school.

It's private, right, yeah.

Yeah.

And the year that I was applying to college was the year that Operation Varsity Blues, if you remember, the girls like pretending to be on the growers. So actually one of my best friends from elementary school was the daughter of the individual people who sort of I guess like radded to the Feds or leaked on the whole thing. So that was an interesting just sort of like class system understanding where I was like, oh, and for me, getting into college at Harvard Westlake was like the apex.

It was why you existed, the paragon of existence, right.

And seeing a sort of admission system where it was like you either had to be a first gen LGBTQ, you know whatever to get in, or you had to be some like old guard, old money, super blue bloody type donating, you know, ten million dollars to.

A fake sports program.

I was like, oh, that's an interesting way to conceive of American society, which I think is very bannon esque, right, it is that Republican versus democrat.

I was never really into that, but it was very.

Like, oh, the elites and there's sort of woke pet projects and then everyone else and concurrently on that timeline, it was also or the year's prior, it had been twenty sixteen. So I graduated high school in twenty nineteen and I saw in twenty three and I was in tenth grade during President Trump's twenty sixteen election cycle, and I was not like the cringe person in the maga hat, like trying to just cause conflict for the sake of

Of type cast, at least in high school.

As like the Maga turning Point girl, which was so not me. I always pride myself like I love my job, but I have a you know, whole life outside of it too, And I think that there's sort of this weird urge to like type cast all conservatives on campus as sort of like zoo animal that's your only personality.

And I did a podcast because.

They had started a show called Right on Point, and I was under the impression that it was like, oh, we can say what we want. And I'd been sort of pushing the administration to bring conservative speakers. They had literally had a member of the Communist Party USA come and speak, and they had sort.

Of abdicated their role.

I would argue of admissions, and they kind of weaponized that whole process just to accept essentially, like you know, minority is the whole DEI trope. But I was very disheartened sort of seeing all this happen around me, so I tried to push back, not in like a hair on fire kind of way, but just like raising points. You guys say you care about diversity, what about diversity of thought? And apparently what I said on the podcast

What'd you say?

I just said, I wasn't a feminist.

I was like, you know, I kind of explained why, like Trump, particularly on immigration, it wasn't a lot more radical now for.

Since in fact, when Ryan announced you were coming on the shop I since referred to like Tranny is and gone further along those lines, which I think is probably an arc that a lot of people in your generation have gone down in the last several years too.

Yes, I think for sure.

I mean also to just from my perspective, before Steve went to prison, I was doing more investigative reporting, particularly on Chinese Communist Party infiltration, which I guess was where I was getting to my story, and I'm very proud of the work that I did, you know, members of Congress, the Republican Study Commission, sided at the National Association of Scholars.

So I always joke that, like, the.

Worst thing they did was send Steve to prison because it helped me kind of find my broadcasting voice and go on the rants, which I know we were talking about, but that sort of forced me, pushed me into that role. But to my core, deep down, I'm like an OPO researcher and I wish I had the time and the chance to do that more. But I also think people people like the rants. They like the kind of inflammatory content.

It's kind of like, what's what's the point.

We have a clip from one short's going.

To make me watch myself?

I need that.

It's pretty short. So yeah, let's ex two here.

These House Republicans, they love to focus on the culture war so much, right, the limited hangout that the trannys in the bathrooms? Right, Well, Speaker Johnson and most of your colleagues, maybe there are a few good ones, the ones we have on this show, But I would humbly suggest that before you start screaming about transgender surgeries, that you focus on yourself because last time I checked, you

Let's roll it so it goes. It goes on from there, so obviously from the left to people who don't use phrases like trannies. But one piece of that I wanted to pick up on is what is an inherently left wing analysis in there? Which is that elites use culture war yeah drama to distract from material analysis. And I was telling you before you came to the show that oftentimes I'll listen to your rants and I'll be like nodding along.

He's a very regular listener.

I'll be like nodding along for all yep, yep, check check check check, and then it'll veer off and I'm like, WHOA, well, ky, this is where I get off, and you you head

Because populism as well, far left wing populism has the same problem.

Well it shouldn't because it can say that all bankers are bad. It doesn't have to say that Jewish bankers are bad.

Yes, but they will say that all of the bankers are Jewish bankers, Sorrytalie.

And if they do, they should be run out. But anyway, so there's this tension between the different wings of populism and uh so, and I often hear you talking about you and and and Steve Bannon as well, talking about the way that they're trying to divide people. Bannon recently in that New York Times column was saying, Yeah, the Democrats screwed up because they beat Dornie Sanders like if. And I've spoken to him over the years, and I know he's being he's he's said this in real time,

Well, I too, am an avid consumer of MSMBC. We're the same kindred spirits, and I'm trying to understand why I like watching it so much. I think I like hate watching My conclusion I've come to is it's like a slot machine. It's very dope magenic because you never know when they're going to say something crazy, right, so

Don't tell us now.

Like a month before the election, that you suddenly care about, you know, securing elections. So that's where we need to get behind omnibus spending like you guys have done for what like sixteen times in the past few years. So that is I think, you know, the tranny referends aside an interesting I think sort of clip that shows you the difference where our show, I think sort of excels in terms of act taking on these issues.

But I think it's interesting.

And this is something too that Steve and I have sort of talked about on the show a lot, which is how Democrats will triage their twenty twenty four loss, because whatever they choose to identify as being the variable will obviously sort of dictate how they then progress forward.

We need to like fund independent media.

Though I think the way they use the term independent media is a little cagy. But I think the civil war that's brewing that I think Frankly, if it pans out the way that.

You're probably more inclined for it too.

If it does pan out that way, it's bad for Republicans, it's bad for like my side, the populist right, is that the sort of more I think non establishment wing in the Democratic Party wants to take us on. I think probably has more similarities with us on protect workers rights.

Player protester types, which is part of your party. I'm sorry to report.

But I also think that there are a lot of like you know, the more disaffected Democrat coalition and I think if you guys were to take those issues like immigration, like workers rights, even Bernie Sanders was on the warm side.

Of the HMMBVSA debate, right, that's a lot more politically salient.

I do think, however, that the version of left wing populism here in the United States is I think sort of weighed down by the identity politics in terms of you guys can't support you know, deportations or ice raids, or strengthening the border or saw the idea of sovereignty, because I think you guys are not saying you in particular, but have really bought into some really radical propositions about you know, like you know, starting off the DNC with

With that issue.

Please keep doing it because it helps us. But if you guys were to really embrace that, like you know, Kamala Harris said, for I guess, for the first time ever in her history, the word sovereignty down while she was talking in the Arizona border during the campaign trail, or the patriotic flags inside the DNC.

It sort of took everyone for a shock. They're like, what the heck? This is so new.

But I don't think that the democratic elites will allow that to happen. And even that Senator I forget who did a whole tweet thread where they basically said that, like, it's bad for our donors if we embrace populism.

I missed that one, but yeah, it certainly is intention with the donors.

Well, and this is like a obviously a huge conversation about the ideological overrap lap. We have a question from one person in our audience, Nathan Carasberg.

Gest readers that our viewers to send stuff in And.

Nathan, that's what would it take for the populist left and the populist right to agree to disagree on culture and unite against the techno feudalists and transhumanists. Otherwise, I don't see how we humans win. And this is a really interesting question because of kind of the H one visa dust up that we were talking about earlier in that Elon Musk super pro H one B visa's behind neuralink and a lot of AI software's complicated. Person but

Who was given credit, Nathan.

Finberg was positioned datas for a really long time. So I'm curious what you make of Nathan's question, Natalie from your vantage point, like can everyone agree to disagree on culture or is this actually part and parcel of the cultural war in and of itself.

Well, I think that H one B eight all of you, there's so many visa categories. It's insane that debate. It's wild, Like that sort of represented that sort of re orientation, like the political fracturing I think you saw most acutely on the Republican side of things. I will say I think it was really just kind of war room from like an immedia perspective. Who and Steve Who who held the line most people right, really kind of jumped on the Elon Musk bandwagon.

And I don't know.

I mean, I think for starters, I love the idea of a big tent, right, I love the idea of bringing people in, and it's maybe great to see the tech bros liking us, But you know, I also think too, like you have to preserve some of the reasons that those people didn't like us in the beginning, and that was because we weren't like I would argue the Obama White House that was just like, hey, here's free a liv bit of money.

We're not going to regulate you, just like please support us it.

Musk didn't like Trump in the beginning, and you, Musk took a lot of money from Obama to start Tesla when it was not start, but to reinvigorate Tesla exactly.

And we've even more broadly, I think, have been very critical of the tech bro like newfound Maga conversion.

I think it's very performative.

I think they have tried to do a kind of limited hangout version of what they did to the Maga movement, where they're like, oh, sorry, we accidentally censored you. I'm like, no, no, you algorithmically manipulated, blacklisted, censored, D banked D platforms spent what a billion dollars to like mess with the twenty twenty election, So we're not going to let you get away with that on like a two page letter, Mark Zuckerberg.

It's like your entire adult life really, since.

I did the show the first time when I was nineteen mm hm.

Fun fact, I had no Wi Fi connection at my house, so I had to do it in a friend's kitchen and I was standing up.

So we've come a long way. I'm sitting down in a studio.

But I had never received such an outpouring of support from our audience because we took a really hard line. I did an hour long episode with Steve where I sort of dug into the myth that is a, we need to be importing a bunch of foreign workers and B that the people who were therefore importing are the best and the brightest, and it wasn't I think talking points that anyone had really heard.

I stayed up literally all night, and I just.

Like read every government testimony ever, government report, like read a book on I was just like, the data is truly astounding.

You never hear about it. This was all based on a lie.

And of every issue I've ever covered, I never received so many messages from people, not just saying like, yes, you're on it, you're on the right side, but more importantly people being like this is my lived reality. Like I was replaced, I had to train a replacement, my wife did this, my son can't get a tech job. And that was when I really had a realization. I was like, Wow, this really is a politically significant and palpable issue. Like talk about the bathrooms, okay, whatever, that's

It's kind of symbolic, yeah, but it's not like, oh my gosh.

When you actually get the numbers and you see who's overstaying, you're like, wow, this is a really, really, really deep problem. And I think that they sort of unintentionally expose themselves by like forcing a conversation, because now you know when the hebh to bo whenever visa sort of regulation or legislation comes.

Through Congress or President Trump speaks on it.

It's now such a hot button issue where I think we're on the right side of it.

But are you destined to divorce with Musk?

I mean, he gets a seat at the table, and you know what I mean.

I think he recognized what was going on in Pennsylvania. I think they were smart to not put all their money into just like super TV ads, but it was like boots on the ground, door knocking grassroots, like.

We have an affinity there. But he gets a seat at the table.

He doesn't get like a commandeering presence to co opt the entire MAGA movement. And I think that Warroom has really been instrumental in pushing back against him, like imagine a world in which Steve Bannon wasn't there from within the Maga tent to be pushing back against some of the stuff that Elon does. And I also think too, like there's a very strong mindset to make everything very black and white, like it's gray, Like some of the stuff Elon does is good and some of it.

Is probably not good.

And maybe MSNBC's criticisms of him are accurate, and maybe they're not, but I think it shows why. Frankly, I think they don't want a sort of how we say, rogue, kind of war Room esque outlet right because we call it, we call the balls and stricks, like we are not afraid. We don't cater or cow tow to anyone. I would argue we're actually dependent. We're not beholden to anyone in Maga world or the other side.

But you're playing and ask tough questions then of Caroline love It, which if people don't listen to war Room, very critical of Musk, very critical of certain moves when you get on the wrong side. So I think that's actually.

People want mass deportations and we will, we need them. And if we are not meeting that benchmark, then I'm going to be asking about it. If we're not meeting the benchmark on certain policy proposals or campaign promises that our audience worked so hard to get them elected, I'll be asking about that, which I think.

Is really funny.

The idea that, like I'm there's some like lackey to just you know, make the Trump admin look great. I think they've been doing wonderful stuff so far most part. But my job there is to sort of speak for our audience, and we've been very forthright in criticizing when you know, criticized, criticism is necessary. We shouldn't be stapling

And I'm always like, I work in media, and they're like, you know, finally it's like the eighth question. I'm like, Okay, I'll just tell you what I do. Oh, you work for Steve Bannon. I thought he hates women and he's like a Nazi and blah blah blah.

And I'm like, actually, no, Steve is for like taxing the billionaires as much as possible. He's against concentrated well, he's for breaking this up. And you know, he's all about the America work. And they're like, oh my gosh, that's so not what I thought he was, which I think sort of speaks the way they've sort of defamed the right wing populist movement because it is such a politically powerful force, and.

So compared to Musk, there are a lot of people on the left that would prefer that Bannon when it comes to those pieces that you laid out, not necessarily the master deportations, but the other parts that he beat Musk. And so we have a question here from David Flagg. He says, what can liberals do to support Bannon over Musk? So, well, you know, what would you what would you tell that is a good question.

Well, let's see, I got to put myself in the mind of both liberals and Steve V. K.

Bannon or not really, because pretend they're liberally are going to do what you tell them to do. I think what their question is because they don't really understand the right wing ecosystem, and they don't know what levers to pull and what would help and what what wouldn't help. Sometimes what they do would backfire. They might if they support something, then it might lead someone the right to be like, well, if Bernie and AOC are for that, it must be bad.

I think what I would say is, I think the media has a playbook with how they are covering the Trump administration, and to sort of back into this, they don't have any levers of governmental or institutional power right now to necessarily push back.

Right They've lost like everything.

And I think if you read or just listen to MSNBC, but sort of historically their playbook, and you know, I'm inclined to bring up sort of like the norm Eisends of the World, the Brookings Institution, their democracy playbook, how they've sort of pushed for regime change in foreign countries that's been through the idea of civil society in an

I'm sorry.

The whole agency is run by unelected baracots and billionaires run the Democratic Party.

So I think those attacks are.

A lot more powerful than like buying into the paradigm that it's dictator Elon and dictator Tron.

So from the perspective of a conservative populist, I look at Elon Musk and sort of like what Ryan Gerduski, I don't know, did you see his post about Musk. He said, let's just say there was a billionaire who's made most of their money from businesses whose success was based on government contracts and subsidies. The way you go from being a billionaire to being a trillionaire is getting a hold of government data and using it for your

Our bureaucrats are better than their billaiers are right than their billaires. No, I think there's there's so many verticals that they're kind of carrying out this what I'm sure Steve would call like deconstruction of the administrative state. And I think you just have to take kind of each agency, each department through its own paradigm. And what do I mean by that, Like what's going on with DOJ and FBI. I think that's more like a legal battle like unitary

Does he have the right to hire and fire?

And I think that's what you're seeing go down right now with like the FBI purge right in the lawsuits that they're putting out getting rid of January sixth agents, Like that's the paradigm to view that through the USAID thing. Yeah, I don't think it's great to have unelected billionaires running any government agency.

Of course that's bad.

But spare me means media the performative outrage that you guys either a care about the Constitution or b that you care about unelected bureaucrats or billionaires running government so it's the framing of it I sort of reject, but I think you just have to take it.

I mean, day by day.

I mean I also think too, I'm also sort of inclined, and maybe this is a little less ideological, but I remember President Trump, what did he say in twenty sixteen when he was talking to African Americans?

He's like, what do you guys have to lose? And I sort of feel.

Like that's the approach of the Trump administration now in a more broad sort of whole of government, whole of society approach, which I mean by that it's like, we're so fiscally insolvent. Fiscally it's so bad, Like what do we have to lose by maybe taking a chance on another way of running the government. And yes, I'm sure you would give me a whole litany.

Of what we have to lose.

But on the other hand, what we're doing is not working, and what we've been doing at USAID is not working. And I think that there's this desire to sort of whitewash and euphemize, particularly in the context of usaideas like oh, we're helping Bangladeshi refugees eat, and it's like well, maybe, I mean, what is like twelve cents to the dollar actually makes it over to whatever country it actually is.

And stuff where you're like, what is going on here?

But as someone who frequents the USA spending you know, database website a lot, there also is no oversight. And I think that that lack of oversight is almost equally bad as maybe lack of oversight on Elon Musk for example, there are a ton of government grants and they all curiously popped up starting around twenty sixteen combating misinformation disinformation.

It's fun. You should people should go and do it. It's wild, Okay, it's insane.

And that's where I'm like, I think, if you look, I think why they're melting down about usai D.

Sometimes it's because these are basically almost spy programs and they're trying to they're covering the real identity because but I.

Also think it's how this town has gotten rich. I think through usai D, I think they've laundered money and I use that in the truest sense in the name of democracy through a bunch of NGOs that you're like, what are you even doing?

And two, I think why.

They're melting down about the USAID stuff. And I do think it is interesting watching the mainstream media sort of just what to take the bait on, because I think that was the lesson that they learned from the Trump administration the first iteration. They're like, we can't melt down, we can't become apoplectic over everything. But I think they're resistance strategy this time around, or what they now are terming the opposition since they can't impeach him, since they

Trump administration now?

And moreover to that point, maybe.

This is where we get a little more room conspiratorial.

But as someone who has read a lot of the texts coming out of these resistance type organizations, there's always this sort of undercurrent of well, maybe we need to partner with international organizations, we need to like go global, which they have done. I would argue with a lot of the censorship stuff. When they couldn't totally do it here, they outsourced the infringement of the First Amendment to international groups.

I think the UK has been a hot bed for it. But I think too another.

Reason kind of a compounding factor as to why they're so nervous about USAID being shut down is that I think again, maybe they weren't planning to launder the money. I'll be a little nice, so I'll be more charitable. They were just planning to send the money. But I think they really wanted to kind of bankroll the resistance internationally and sort of use that as a roundabout way to come after President Trump because they couldn't really they

You know.

So I'm like, you know how, I guess times are tough for Dirograts.

Yeah, it does. It does have them in a bind because they're trying to figure out how to defend usai D. And you know, initially they were defending it as you know, foreign aid as important and pointing to like if you shut down pep FAR, you shut down this protection for spending around infants in Sudan, and people like people are going to die and people literally are going to die if you do that.

It's a clever insurance policy.

But then Rubio can owner and say, well we're going to keep those programs going. Yeah, And so now you've started to see I think it was Chris Murphy who is like, the reason we're funding USAID in Africa is to counter China and so that we can extract the resources from Africa. I saw that. I was like, Okay, like now we're talking about what's actually happening, Like it's it's out in the open like that is it's always

Said, Usa, he spends money to make sure that we're countering Chinese influence inside of Africa and make sure we don't lose minerals.

To make sure that we don't lose access to critical mineral supplies and.

That we're fighting against Hesbula.

Like, I hate this idea that the US is some charitable organization that is just so benevolent and wasting people's money by because we're so soft hearted that we're out here helping people know we're like a ruthless empire that is trying to extract resources from Africa, and usaid is the soft power way that we go in and do that. China's got its Belt and Road and this other efforts that it uses to try to get resources. It's a

And I was just gonna say that we have, speaking of the American Empire, we have a question from Kevin McGonagall, who says.

I was going to ask this one too, I like this one.

Will there be a right populous pushback for American troops being as he puts, a cannon fodder for Israel I mean securing Gaza. It's been a whirlwind of last twelve hours, Natalie, But as.

You know, before we were booked to do the show, apparently now we are taking over Gotha.

Seriously. Yeah, So we're taping this within like twelve hours of all of the happening, and you're sort of in a position hearing from your listeners, who I'm sure probably more in the Josh Howley camp of saying, I don't know that this is the right use of US resources, A similar argument that's made against usaid in fact, So,

All of that.

Sure, well, I think to sort of can join what both of you said. I think the issue first and foremost derives from the lack of transparency. And I think one way to view what President Trump is trying to doing or DOGE or anything. They view it as like, oh, they're stealing the contracts and they're doing this, and they're shutting it all down, and they, you know, I think are maybe a little harsh and they're sort of depiction

We caught a regime. I have like a reflexive. I can't call them an.

Administration as long as we can call it the Trump regime.

That's cool, sounds better.

Yeah, that isn't extremely That moment is extremely think like instructive.

Yeah, there you go, that's the clip.

But when the American people, when the support was cratering for Ukraine aid. There was I think it was October or last year, or maybe it's twenty twenty three, but there's a whole political story where they had sort of leaked. They were like, Okay, the White House knows that Americans are kind of like Cagy on supporting Ukraine. So our new effort, or our new sort of like propaganda campaign to get Americans to support Ukraine aid is going to be.

The messaging which they were pumping out through local.

Papers and local media was the idea that Ukraine aid is actually good for our industrial base and that it's good for our economy, and that it creates American jobs and we don't have to.

Have that debates there.

Yeah, And that was such an interesting moment for me because I was like, no, no, no, If you want the American people to support giving aid to Ukraine, the number one thing that you should do would be an audit and have a show us that our money is a actually making it there, which what Zelenski said just yesterday, He's like, I only got seventy seven billion, what about

Most prices Ryan right there.

You see it as bait, well, because I think their whole paradigm is like cover what Trump does, not what he says.

And I think.

It'll be interesting generally smart probably.

Yeah, But I also think that I personally sort of view this kind of bold proclamation, which I would also love to know like behind the scenes, if this was something that he had talked about with n.

Yah, because if you look at the like.

Facial reactions, it seems like Trump just said it, which I mean for Trump to be telling in what a matter of like twenty four hours, Israel, China, Mexico and Canada like, actually, we're the top dog.

We're gonna choose.

What's going on here, I think is something we haven't seen in a while. But to that point, I think, I mean, it's not a cliche or you know, novel take, but the thing itself is sometimes not the actual thing itself, right, Like it's not actually about gos, it's.

You know, for lack of better word, it's the art of the deal.

In the same way that the tariffs was it actually about putting those tariffs in?

Who knows?

It was about extracting concessions. I will say this is sort.

Of a like.

A narrative like paradigm shifting idea where it maybe almost like brings anything like whatever we want, we don't want that, but I don't know.

I think our audience, obviously, the.

Israel issue, I always call it a lose lose no matter what you say, you're gonna get harassed by everyone. But the way that I've always approached it, and I think our audience too, is just from the America first perspective.

I think there's sort of a mere scheimer.

Esque kind of quality to it, where it's just like, are we super invested in it what you know the offshore around, Like what exactly is our investment in the region.

How does it benefit us.

To either have you know, a more or less terrorist state that absolutely hates us and is trying to attack us. But it's also not our job to prop up the opposition to said state. And I think our audience when it's come to anything related to Israel, Palestine, Goza, whatever.

Is first and foremost.

We don't want any refugees from Gaza entering the United States. Like that is sort of where I think we really toe the line, and I think we will definitely push hard on that.

But I think, you know, if we.

Were recording this episode tomorrow right like, it'd be a different news cycle. And I don't really think that it's about taking over Gaza.

I think it's I hate to use.

The words four D chess because I'm out one of those people.

But there is an element to it.

You described the Israel's issue for you guys as lose lose. I'm curious, like where your audience comes down on the on the question, because from an obvious internal logic perspective, America first and isolationism would include Israel like it would it would it would call into question, are like reflexive

I think it's sort of the steep paradigm of wanting allies and not protectorates. And I think that where audience sometimes maybe gets a little tripped up or is sort of anti age Israel, I think is just because the sheer magnitude of the funds that are going to them, And I don't think that it's ever really been clearly articulated to the American people, like what exactly we're getting

That I take a version to. And I think that, you know, whether it's APAK or whatever.

Entity it may be, I think that that just sort of hard hard to square.

Conversely, it's like, well, I also don't.

Want and I think if you go back to the infamous Steve whiteboard pick what was it designating the Muslim brother and a terrorist organization.

From the White House.

Yes, he always says that his biggest regret was never doing that. And for Steve Bannon, who's had a lot of lives and a lot of cool things, for that to be as big as regret, I think tells you something. And I think the way that our show sort of conceives of Islam is probably a little more on the

I'm really anti it. Yeah, I really think we need to.

So I'm aware it can become performative very quickly in the same way like the transgender bathroom stuff, right, it sort of becomes a cultural thing.

Muslims were, where it's like, oh, it sort of comes comes back.

It goes to my earlier point that right wing populism often needs to because it won't go after the one or said it often needs like, oh, it's the Muslim Brotherhood.

I also think that that's a function two of right wing media in terms of like I think our show and it's funny, I'm even sort of struggling, like you played.

One of my rants.

I much prefer having something to rant about as opposed to something to celebrate about from just a broadcasting perspective, and I think we thrive on like having an enemy. And I do think sometimes the MSMB secretique of us is like we do better in opposition than actually ruling. Is sort of an interesting critique if you look at it through the lens of right wing media. In other words, like we were all united right during the campaign because we had a clear and defined enemy and a clear

And if I had to host the show this evening, like.

I could have, you know, two months ago, done a whole rant about every way that in our view, they were trying to sort of, you know, fool around with election stuff, and they were trying to you know, lie or smear President Trump. And now like the best that I can do is into the you know, attorney who's representing the nine and anonymous FBI agents who in twenty twenty two is tweeting up the storm.

About how quote all of MAGA needs to be fired from the United States government.

So it's it's just a shift, and I'm just like I want to like, I'm like, give me a chance to rant well.

And so this brings me at least my last question, because I could keep doing this forever. This is from M and n H This is a viewer who says what ethical consideration should be top of mind for war Room and other new media outlets as they report on the White House with their newfound access. We talked about this a little bit earlier and how you feel like

Well, I would say my first and foremost ethical consideration is what I wear.

No, the skirts are not going anywhere, you know.

It was funny they were mad at me for wearing sneakers, which I was like everyone does when they're not on camera, and I was like, look, I was actually go friendly and I walked to the White House from Capitol Hill, so I was like, I love walking.

It's my favorite thing to do.

So I was like, I was trying to reduce my carbon footprint, and then I got ratioed for it, but not ratioed. We ratioed the Daily Mail and they had to take the journalist's name.

Off the story. It's another war room wind, the power of the war of audience.

But no, I think that's an interesting question, and I think that it's something that I've kind of internally struggled with.

I've always said, despite my you know.

Rather bombastic rhetoric like I have, I spent a lot of my free time actually trying to deduce how to be a responsible steward of this platform that I have not stumbled into. But just you know, in twenty three, put yourself in my shoes. You're speaking to hundreds of thousands of millions of people, the most powerful politically. Like it's a lot to conceive of and not sound cliche, but I've always just sort of let the truth guide me.

But I also think.

Too, like it's an interesting question because we are forthright and our support for President Trump, and I'm aware that maybe that's hard.

To square with the idea of like being a journalist, but.

I'm sorry every time I walk in that press briefing room and everyone's sitting there, who has their you know, superior superiority complex and like, you know, I guess really chip on their shoulder, but like the idea that like we're a clownish operation by being there, it's like, you guys are probably more partisan.

Than we are.

And that's sort of what I find to be the most cognitively dissonant or just gaslighting experience of that press briefing room, where I'm like, I have to sit here and pretend like what you guys are doing is telling the truth. Like they act so professional and so serious, and I'm like, you're a bunch of liars and you're advancing a certain talking point or certain narrative. So I just to keep our audience kind of ahead of the curve because I don't want to be a Trump cheerleader

Oh my gosh, we took over Gassa and how I've sort of come to.

Really, I think square that is focusing on the resistance because it gives me something.

To latch onto because I guess maybe I need.

An enemy or something to cover, So I really want to focus on that angle. But I also think too, like I want to cover the media, Like there's enough people who are gonna be trying to ask questions.

I you know.

Learned the hard way, like this is where I stand, this is where I sit. I'm like, okay, sir, I'm not trying to come for your see, I'm new, like I got it. And I think covering the media is more interesting. And sure it's funny the people in the briefing room and the masks and when someone asks the question, they're like rolling their eyes because it's, you know, a different outlet than what.

They're used to.

But I think, to wrap up my answer, what we were talking about in terms of the resistance stuff like civil society and the media is the crux is the cornerstone of their ability to push back on President Trump.

Right now, it's all they have, and being in that press briefing room therefore, sure it gives.

Me access to the White House, the President, but it also gives me access to sort of ground zero of the resistance, and that is what I want to cover and sort of use that as like primary sourt of supporting to supplement the reporting that I've been doing kind of independently on tracking the resistance stuff.

So that's how I.

View it, which is, you know, maybe not the traditional ethics space journal but I think we live in a post journalism ethics world and I think I'm the first to admit it. They'll if they want to admit otherwise I would just point them to their viewership.

I mean to support your point. And this probably happened when you were in elementary school back when Time magazine was a big deal in Washington. Time Magazine's White House correspondent transition to become Obama's spokesperson. So it went and went from the seat to the podium.

So, Carolyn Love, it's.

Been on war room a ton, which now I would humbly suggest that the resistance is boring and that you should take your talents and focus them on Musk corporate America. Trying to co opt the Mega movement and the intelligence community. That element of the residence I think is very interesting, and that brings me to this very interesting question that

I think that person asse on that would be Steve, right. I don't want to speak about their conversations, but I mean, I don't even think it's just like a you know, Steve president Trump conversation.

I think that you can't like turn on a TV or the media.

Without being inundated with like this is the thing itself, right, this is the the story right now, you know, Stephen president Trump talk. Obviously he's not shy about that. But you know, Elot obviously has a seat at the table too. But I do think, I mean also to the sheer power of our audience, Like I said, that's a very grassroots force, so I don't think they're going to want to alienate.

Us.

But like I said, it's all about having a seat at the table and we can debate it out and when you have full transparency, like we will win. I have full faith in Stephen K. Bannon and myself and our kind of approach to the issue. I mean, you see Mark Zuckerberg and all these people are getting like totally ratio and controlled. No one believes their conversion. So I think I think it's just sort of a time will tell thing, like you know, and maybe maybe.

This could be the last one because there's a ton of interest from our lefty audience.

Here, and I was scared they were going to be mean to me.

Well they did want they are a bunch of them said they wanted to ask you about the correspondence typo, which I don't know what that means, do you know?

I know this whole interview, I'm like, I'm so smart, I'm so good at my job. I'm twenty three and like the youngest white OSK correspondent ever, I'm so intelligent.

No.

When I when I tweeted out the now infamous picture, I spol a co respondent with one R. And it was because it was I was getting ready to like go on air, and you know, you don't understand love Real America's voice, but I put them in the category like tech startup. So it's very like ratchet and and.

I'm like getting pulled in this direction. I have like my air pods in my phone's not connecting.

Like every journalist that like we've ever attacked, I think Steve the second before they came to me, they were like, we need to send these people to prison, like and I'm like, well it see anything. You just called like three of the people that I just saw walk by like that they should go to jail. So I'm standing there so like and I wanted to tweet out the picture because I was like, this is like a cool picture.

It's like, you know, we'll make.

Some people jealous, right, And so I know that when I had typed out correspondent, which is sort of like a difficult word spell, I was like the first rate, Okay, it's still complicated. I'm I was very honest, and I just got you know, like when you just want to use autocorrect, so you just kind of like get the gist of the word out there and then you let.

It trust the machine. Yeah.

So I guess for.

Some reason, autocorrect thinks that I am like, well, you know, correspondent with one R means like the fair partner a divorce. I did not know.

I'm not.

Wow, did you learn something you ever?

Know?

But that one super viral, So.

I kind of know, though I guess I guess I'm docsing myself.

No I'm not.

But yeah, so that was that was kind of annoying, and then they all piled in foot I will defend my honor and as a true opposition researcher. The lady who first quote tweeted me that led to like, it's like forty or fifty million impressions. I was like, oh my gosh, this is so embarrassing. She spelled correspondent wrong too. I went through Rachel Bitakoffer. I went through her Twitter, and twice in February, it was February seventh and February eighth of twenty nineteen.

She was tweeting about.

The Virginia Correspondence Association. They were having their like big annual dinner, and she spelled it with one R, and she.

Did it twice. So that's reflective.

Of your intelligence, Buston, I am smarter than her.

Aside from that, there does seem to be a lot of lefty hope that your faction is going to beat the techno feudalist authoritarian faction. And one of these this all make this the last one is related to I think asking you to look at some of the left wing stuff that was done and evaluated in a fair way.

Well, I will say I think they did an absolutely horrific job on messaging on some of their their winds like I can, like I said, we call balls and striking, But from a more I think meta kind of bird's eye view perspective, you can't really tell me they did a good job with reducing inflation. And I think if you look at their economic track record, whether it's the revisions of the jobs reports, I think what was like twelve out of thirteen times downward or the fact that

Is absolutely horrific.

So I don't I mean, I think if they want to hang on to what they did with the economy as being something really strong, I would highly.

Advise against that.

I also think too, it's a broader I think issue in terms of I don't think any president who oversaw an invasion of fifteen million illegal aliens the most oppressive force on American workers' wages, you can't say that that was good for reducing inflation helping American workers.

Separate it from Biden and partisans the idea of the Inflation Reduction Act, where you are subsidizing American jobs and transition to a clean energy economy which China's killing us in like in general directionally, if you separate it from Democrats. Is that something that fits into abandoned style.

I think they're supporting American manufacturing base. Of course, I think President Trump kind of went a different way of trying to do that, more like tariff get kind of that sort of approach. But yeah, I think Peter Navarro, who obviously helped co host the show while he was in prison as close friends with all of us, we were very close with him, is very supportive of that too.

We're very for restoring. I mean, if it were.

Up to Steve, we would like kick out all Chinese companies and maybe the big tech ones too while we're at it.

But it did say break up the big tech companies. Yeah, but he said they should have left Lean a conon place.

But I just think it's sort of performative and not just a Democrat thing. Not to skirt your question, but like the idea that they're actually genuinely trying to reshore manufacturing jobs, there's.

Still that sort you know what I mean, Like it's it.

I don't think it had the impact that they intended, not because the legislation was bad or ideologically unprincipled. But this city is just and big business, big donors, corporate interests. They want to outsource and that's the fundamental issue, Like they just hate American workers, So I think you have to negotiate with them much more intensely.

Like carrot stick. I think tariffs are more of the stick.

I think stuff like that is a little more carrot based, and they're not going to take the carrot like you.

You have to smash them. Yeah, smash the rich.

Fascinating right, Yeah, thank you for growing in us.

Thank you so much. I'm so glad I wore that. That's scared otherwise I don't know.

No, I mean, listen, like the media infiltration of the White House PRESSU room is long overdue, like new media infiltration or.

The White House, I'll see you in there.

Yes, that's right. But thank you so much for having Thanks for thanks for being on taking the time.

We appreciate it. Thank you guys. Awesome.

Well, we'll be back with more counterpoints next week, so stay tuned for that. Appreciate it season