Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.
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We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints dot com. At the same time, there was some extraordinary developments in media Donald Trump's election, prompting some to think they should just quit. One of them is HBO's Bill Maher. You can take a listen to his reasoning.
I mean, I may quit because I don't want to do another I did Trump, I did. I did all the Trump stuff before anybody. I called him a con man before anybody.
I did.
He's a mafia boss. I was the one who said he wasn't going to con the election. I've done it. I've seen this well.
Then, how come he's so hostile to Jimmy Kimmel and not to you.
He's very hostile to me? Is it's about me?
Every week?
Oh really?
Oh yes, every week he accidentally watches my show and then.
Low ratings loser. Oh yeah, but I mean.
I just I'm bored with it.
So which is it? Is he bored or is he afraid?
Or is it because at another point he says, I'm shitting my pants.
Yeah, I know about Trump being back and off.
First he was, like I said it before everybody. I called him a con man for bro they've been calling on Jonald Trump comments. Is nineteen what nineteen seventy eight? None of that original? What he called him cheeto, Jesus orange man. This is not original, Like, this is ridiculous.
He was, if anything, he was a follower. I mean that's how I see him, frankly, as like this neo reactionary center left figure who's like constantly calibrating where he can be contrarian but also be within the confines of this like imaginary movement which doesn't exist beyond the likes of Amy Klobajar famous clip that happened with him. So I don't know you know the with Bill, I mean, maybe you should retire obviously be good. He's been on the air for for decades.
It's like, what I'm personally, at what point are.
You still adding to the conversation? And look, I know this is meme. I like Bill Maher. I watched Religious when I was a kid. He did a lot of good work on atheism, you know, and stuff like that in the past. But in the last Trump you know, in the Trump years, what's been disappointing is how boring, frankly, how much all of it has been.
It's just it always comes back to the same conclusion, which is like these woke young people blah blah blah. It's like, okay, all right, you know, we get it, Like we see that point. We've heard that point before, and so it was funny Jane fond of being kind of like, huh, well, why doesn't.
He go after you?
Which I think she's correct that at this point mar has a lot of fans, even as he still, you know, a t imp opponent. There's no doubt. I'm Gie voted for Kamala Harris. He though Kamala Harris was gonna win, as I did in many others but because a lot of his commentary is punching left, he does have a lot of fans who are Republican right wing voter for Trump, et cetera. So in any case, it is kind of funny that he's wavering between I'm just bored and sort of exhausted by it, or I might be kind of.
Scared of the next term.
Speaking of all of that drama, a very interesting drama is playing out, Greek tragedy potentially playing out over with the Morning Joe people and their whole roster of regulars. So David from apparently went on the show and made some spicy comments about Fox News. We can put this tear sheet up on the screen of him explaining how all of this went down. The headline here is the sound of fear on air. It's an ominous sign that Morning Joe Felder had to apologize for something I said.
So in any case, they were talking about Pete Hegseth and all the allegations against him. Some of the latest allegations are you know per some folks at Fox say that they were concerned about his drinking, that he would show up and they could smell alcohol him on him et cetera, et cetera. So he says, and I quote, let's take all the drinking, all the sex pesting, subtract any knowledge of defense, subtract any leadership, and there is your next Secretary of Defense for the twenty first century.
If you're too drunk for Fox News, you're very, very drunk. Indeed, so you know, this is all kind of power for the course for what morning. Joe used to be a in the tenor of the dialogue that you would expect.
And apparently David.
From had already been warned in his ear about like your you know, his tone or being a little bit too edged, et cetera. And then he goes on and he says this, and then Mika feels the need to come on air after they've dismissed David From, who's now apparently too edgy for the show, and says a little bit earlier in this block, there was a comment made about Fox News in our coverage about Pete Hegseth and the growing number of allegations about his behavior over the years.
The comment was a little too flippant for this moment that we're in. We just want to make that comment as well. We want to make that clear. We have differences in coverage with Fox News, and that's a good debate that we should have often. But right now I just want to say, there's a lot of good people who work at Fox News who care about Pete Hegsett
and we will want to leave it at that. So obviously, Saga, this comes on the heels of them making their sojourn down to maur A Lago and having literally on that day, in the next hour, they lost what forty percent of their audience in a time when you know, over the course of the morning show your audience is supposed to build and build and build. Instead of building, forty percent dropped off. MSNBC overall has lost something like half their audience.
They are already, you know, have already announced they're spinning off MSNBC along with another with a bundle of other cable news channels. NBC is staying at comcasts, so they're not going to have, you know, the journalism of NBC. They that this is going to be like a well funded startup, not music to the ears of people who are making each of them, I think make ten million a year.
Each of them should be nice, each of them good gig and they're watching.
I mean, they're really in kind of a tailspin here, which I think comes out in their reaction which happened just this morning.
Thank you to our.
Producers for getting this flip cut so that we could react to it. Where they're now responding to David from and you know the fact that he's calling them out for basically being I guess terrified or capitulating or whatever it is that they're doing. Let's take a listen to how Joe and Mika responded.
This got turned into a column and a headline that said that, let's say, what was the headline this sound of fear? Now, that wasn't the sound of fear, that was the sound of civility, and saying that Meca had apologized, think had apologized. She simply said it was too flippant. Now, I would recommend that if we're at the stage where a comment like this causes a meltdown. And I said, George Conway, another guy we have on the show and we love George saying read this article. It's going to
make you very sad, but you must read it all. Oh, because of the fearful times we're in. Well, there's some problem with the Times that were in.
You can't be fearful.
If you can't be fearful just because some people have said that we're fearful. Let me tell you something. You can talk to anybody that's worked in the front office of NBC and MSNBC over the past twenty two years. I'll tell you I'm not fearful. You knocked anybody who served with me in Congress, they will tell you not
fearful of leadership. The main complaint was that we call Donald Trump's rhetorick fascist during the campaign, and then we went down to have an offful record comment with and guess who else does that?
Let me see from the New York Times, the New York Times Postal.
You know what, I even think folks from the Atlantic, I think I think they.
Might probably do that if they have a chance to talk on the background with the incoming president and president elect, they do it. In fact, as somebody wrote during this outrageously stupid immature, a series of articles that lied time and time again about US reporters, said, I'd be fired if I had the opportunity to go in and talk to somebody who's incoming president of the United States I didn't do it. Ask any journalists at the New York Times, the New York President.
Joe, Joe, you are not a journalist.
You are a group of people who loves to just suck up to power, Like these are the people who were the Biden whisperers, and we see where that got, you know, the side of the aisle they were supposed to be assisting with.
You know, they were people.
Joe is the person who went on and was like, I've seen all sorts of Joe Bidens. This is the best Joe Biden I have ever seen. And if you don't believe it and you don't see that, fuck you.
Yeah. And three weeks later, what happens. He's talking about how Joe Biden needs to drop out of the incredible He called Trump a Hitlarian fascists. That's the thing about the from thing is like, I don't agree with you what David Frum said, but okay, I mean you can't be having a show built on histrionics of liberal of like literal fascism, warning that Hitler is re rising in America, and then what three weeks later you're in your guest's ear.
That's outrageous tone of debt.
I'll tell you this. I've been on probably television a hundred times on Fox News or some of these other channels.
I've never had I've never had that happened to me either.
I have never even when I was a host, I never had them like, oh, he needs a tone a debt.
I have never had that happen my entire care well.
And you're so right, and that was something that really irritated me too. He's like, we said some of his rhetoric was fashion.
No you didn't, No, you didn't.
You said he was hitler.
Yeah, literally, you said that.
And then once he won, you went down to suck up and gravel and bend the knee. Don't portray this as some like brave journalistic feet bullshit, bullshit. So they're in a total meltdown mode, like they're in a tailspin mode. I think they are truly sort of like panicked about what to do and how to maintain their relevance. And they've had a very cushy and very powerful seat at the center of power, especially never more so than during
the Biden administration. I mean this, they were on the phone with him, they'd have his you know, John meetcham on who was his speech writer.
That they you know, wouldn't even mention the.
You know, conflict of interest of this person giving this analysis on their show. Whatever, None of that was over the line. But apparently, you know, David fromm is now too spicy for them. It really is quite quite remarkable to see, and of course, I you know, cheer for the demise of this program in particular, which I think
has been one of the most damaging. Like if you actually, if you care about the Democratic Party being any like better at all than they are right now and doing anything that's going to like really deliver for working class people, these two have been so pernicious, so damaging, and so frankly effective in the project of blocking any grassroots populist energy that you know, to watch them struggle and spin and you know, have these coping meltdowns live on air is truly a beautiful thing to behold.
I mean, the whole thing is hilarious. But the sad part is it honestly might work. The reason why they're policing the pete hegxsath comments because they still want people in power to come on their show. My hope is that the Republicans don't do this again. In fact, yesterday there was a viral photo where a Trump point was spotted having lunch with CNN journalist Caitlin Collins and getting docs like live by being like, hey check this out, look at these people by maga people who are pointing
that out. But this is the dirty little secret that a lot of Republicans never want to acknowledge. Nobody wants mainstream media attention and approval more than Republican lawmakers. It's true Trump in particular, Oh Trump, Trump is the head of the snake. But like they all like it. They love to be on CNN or any of these other places, not even just to fight. They like the attention. They like to be feted by the people that they think embody political media.
It just occurred to me, I wonder if they think, maybe maybe our next move is Fox News.
Maybe I don't think that that's crazy to think.
Why the comments about Fox in particular triggered them.
It's a good point.
Because you know, m SBC is being spun off well funded startup, Okay, well funded startup or not, you are not going to be able to afford twenty million dollars for these pair of morons who have no audience left right, So where else can you go and get that kind of a pay day and have that kind of access to power? Like Fox News right now has like seventy three percent or something of the cable news market share.
They're the biggest game in town. And if you're going to be relevant in the Trump era, you're probably gonna.
Be on Fox News.
So you know, whether they you know, really think they can make the shift there or not, which I don't put them past them to have the level of narcissism EO to think that, oh any of.
Thesetors and they make us as a lot all seen they can justify anything to themselves about the move.
Course, Oh of course, of course no, they would go on, we're you know, we're branching out.
We're just speaking truth.
We're trying to reach audiences that you know, we couldn't reach over at MSNBC.
You better believe it.
And also I don't put up past Fox to be like, hey, maybe you know, like take a shot of them if it makes sense, if it's like useful to them and they think it works for their bottom line, so maybe that's the move they're.
Planning I don't know, I don't know, possible.
All right, let's go and get to these events that occurred overseas. Just a quick rundown for you of what
happened here. So you guys will probably recall, I don't know if you remember all of these details, but Manuel Macron calls these snap elections foolishly ultimately, and it was looking like the far right like Marine Lapenz party, was really surging, and they were, but there was this kind of coalition of you know, the anti Lapenn faction, bunch of macronal line people at a lot of leftists who joined together and were able to block them from an
outright majority. And actually it turns out that the Left Party won the most seats in parliament, so you would think maybe that would give them some you know, governance
power in terms of governance, but not so. Macron decided to make a deal with the not like far right party, but the center right party and put in place a prime minister that came from that faction, with the idea of being basically like I'm going to do move enough to the rite with this pick that Marine le Penn and her crew are not going to instantly vote against him.
And instantly tank him.
And so rather than trying to work together with the left, I'm going to do this like you know, right of center coalition and try to you know, construct a government that way. So that has now come crashing down in spectacular fashion. We can put this up on the screen from Politico, they say, French government collapse turns the screws
on Macron. The collapse of France's government on Wednesday night means it now finally falls to President Emmanuel Macron to step up and confront a snowballing political and economic crisis
that risk sending shockwaves across the Eurozone. After a heated debate in the National Assembly marked by raucous jeers and boos, three hundred and thirty one of France's five hundred and seventy seven lawmakers voted to oust Prime Minister Michel Barnier in a vote of no confidence after he tried to force through an austere budget to fix the country's yawning deficits.
Once he formally resigns, Barnier will become the shortest lived prime minister in the history of the modern French Republic and the first to be booted out by Parliament since nineteen sixty two. So basically the lefties and the righty's and the right wing like l Penz faction, they voted together to oust this dude. That's how he went down. We can put this next piece up on the screen.
This is Daniel Daniel Nashenian, who, in addition to doing great work covering politics here, also covers French politics in a way that's very useful.
He says.
The unnecessary July snap elections resulted in a wildly fragmented Assembly. As you'll know well if you were following you, that's what I was just referring to. Before the Left coalition got roughly one hundred and ninety seats, the Macronis parties got roughly one seventy, the far right got roughly one forty, Conservatives got roughly forty. Okay, so that's the smallest faction
that Macron had partnered with here. In French, coalition that controls the Assembly gets to be Prime Minister and effectively govern the country with little input from the president if the PM and president are in different camps. But no election in the current regime had resulted in such a fragmented chamber. Put the next slides up on the screen
that continues to explain this situation. He says, Macron, you'll also recall refuse to name a prime minister from the left coalition, saying that with only one third of the seats, they were too certain of losing a no confidence vote as soon as they came empowered that it's self provoked controversy. So instead he named this conservative Michael Barnier as Michelle Barniy as PM, formalizing a tacit alliance between his parties
and this center right party. Overall, alliance only had about two hundred and ten on a five hundred and seventy seven seats, but the idea was this is the best way to get the far right to hold off on a no confidence vote and put the last one up on the screen here. So here we are either the pen changes their mind and lets Barney live another day. We now know that did not happen, either because he gives concessions or something else, or the cabinet falls and
it's unclear what happened. Then there can be no new elections till the summer at the earliest. So that's kind of where things are right now. Sager, as far as like the analysts omerating online, no one really knows what happens next.
It's it's crazy.
It's like, I mean, the country is just basically ungovernable at this point. And you know, it really all does go back to that original decision from the Krone to hold the snap elections, and then rather than working with the left to he'd sort of allied with to be able to hold on to power, instead trying to please Lapena do enough to keep her from participating in the snow confidence vote.
And now that has all kind of come apart.
The whole thing is completely insane, and really what it is is that there are not a lot of easy choices, as you said, about where things go next, because now you have no prime minister. Also, Europe is in honestly like turmoil right now, not only with the election of Donald Trump, but Germany is like torn right now over whether they should escalate the war in Ukraine or not. Their chancellor is like simultaneously visiting Kiev but also said
he doesn't want to provide offensive weapons. They literally have no idea what to do, and so with the French, you know, Macron has been very hawkish on Ukraine, he's even floated, putting like French troops on the ground. But then you also have the budget crisis internally. I mean, I don't know, the whole thing is nuts, just for like where things even go in the future. And I would say it's a major it's a major problem for them because Trump is going to use a lot of
this as to his own advantage. Remember, Trump is going to be in France this weekend. He's gonna be You'll be in Paris on Saturday for the opening of the reopening of Notre Dame after it burned down. Oh wow, and so and him and Macrone famously got along very well. Macron played him like a fiddle. I watched it up close. He speaks perfect English. He's very you know, he's a glad handing shape shifter. He knows exactly what to do.
You should see him in action with reporters who, by the way, he knows them all by It's amazing to watch to watch a foreign leader play Americans so well. But anyway, he has invited Trump, you know, to that opening famously. By the way, Trump is planning that he will be in charge of our two hundred and fiftieth anniversary party for the for July fourth, I think it's twenty twenty six, will be America two fifty, which is
going to be a big celebration. And he got the idea, remember for a military parade from the Best Deal Day, Oh My Brands, So apparently he'll be discussing some of that with him. It'll be interesting. It'll be interesting. But I'm curious to see the effects in terms of the French government and also the country and Europe itself, what they want to do and how they're going to handle a Donald Trump administration. I was looking at tariff charts
just yesterday. We had very modest tariffs on European goods last time around, even with Trump in office. They were bitching about like a one percent increase. If Trump is able to get what he actually wants through, which is like ten to fifteen percent, it would decimate the European economy. They would be destroyed.
What were they they were pissed off about the Biden administrations. Yeah, they're the Inflation Reduction Act.
The IRA has specific provisions within it that require certain percentage of the car to be eligible for a task credit has to be made in the United States. Yeah, both Canada and the Europeans hate.
Well, and so they maybe I mean, Trump has that he wants to roll out stuff back, so they may I mean they may be. They may be pleased with some of the things that they.
Might be pleased with that, but I mean in terms of raw goods and other stuff that we do, I mean, think about it, like, for every EV that we buy, probably ten volvos or whatever so comes over in terms of gas power vehicles. The amount of trade that we do with the EU is EV is very very small. Part of that. They were upset because they see that as a future market, but in general they're going to be if there's any real tariffs that go into place.
Especially think about it. Right now, Europeans are heavily reliant on US LNG, and so that they previously they moved from Russian gas over to over to US LNG. We are the dominant energy sellers to the Europeans right now, so we have tremendous leverage over their economies. We could destroy them.
Over there.
They're all doing their version of the Joe and Mika Trump, Congratulations, I don't hate it. Congratulations on your incredible victory. You are such a genius like the Lenski's reading all that stuff out.
I like to see Europeans in a suppliant mood. There's nothing that I hate more than when they lecture us.
Well, yeah, we will see.
I thought this was funny from Arnau, our friend who we tried to book for today but he was busy. We'll get him on another time because he does such a great job. But put this up on the screen. Drawing some parallels with the wild events in South Korea this week, he says, run for election, overtake country from unpopular incumbent, promising you'll change things, perform even worse, stuck
up to the US in very embarrassing ways. Run country's economy of the ground, be wildly unpopular, lose parliamentary majority, propose budget that's opposed by parliament, present opposition as illegitimate and anti democracy. Disregard electure results, be Emmanuel Macron pick unrelated.
And the picture is of the South Korean dude who just tried to do the coup.
So drawing some some parallels here, but you know, just to make the tie in with US politics. To wrap this up, you'll recall Sager when the Left Alliance was able to sort of block the you know, the Marine Lapen surge whatever, isn't that When ron Klain put on his tweet that was like, oh, interesting, incumbent with some thirty percent approval rating is able to maintain his position of power, basically saying like, oh, this will be Joe
Biden's path back in. And I think they they really believed that they thought that the the you know, anti some would say anti fascist coalition that came together in France, that it would be a similar dynamic that would play out here in the US.
And that was really the view, you.
Know, the anti Trump coalition, like that was the bedrock view of the morning Joe's of the world of the run claims of the world of the whole, like Liz Cheney approach to politics, and David Pluff and all these people.
They really thought that that was the way to win back the White House.
And obviously, yeah, and clearly the radical reaction they thought was an aberration. So for example, you had Teresa May kind of become the like the inheritor of Brexit. She calls the snap election, she thinks she's gonna win chnds up losing. This leads to the disaster of Boris Johnson and of Rishi Sunach and now even keer Starmer. He's like tremendous, unpopular. It lives trust as well, you know that's right. But you know Nigel was more popular than
ever before. You know, traditional conservative voters voted reform for the first time in the UK. Same in France. Macron rose on the promise that he would move past. He called himself jubyterarian, which is an amazing term to like move pack like almost a Napoleonic figure, rising above the traditional French mess of politics to lead Europe in a center left neoliberal direction. Remember Barack Obama endorsed him in
twenty seventeen, and it's been a disaster. Angela Merkel, same thing, like the inheritor of that theory of Germany and of strong Europe and the United States didn't work out, has been replaced by Schultz. Hi himself is a mess, you know, in terms of the rise of the AfD now in Germany, so across the continent and really across the world. You watch as a lot of these anti or a lot of these incumbent figures are slowly dropping one by one.
I don't know who's going to place Macron. It could be a socialist, it could be Marine Lefpan, but either way it's going to be pretty radical and shocking and different than what came likely very likely. His goal was to be a bulwark against that. And it's just they thought they could outlast the forces of Brexit, of Trump and all of that. And the truth is is that those were like not only nascent, but they've only grown even more as people have tried to push it down.
So the Trump victory and the fall of these governments, yeah, and whatever come next is just a natural extension.
Part of that global trend of anti incumbency too, where every single incumbent figure in the Western world and lost share and where did you see and India and India lost share. So anyway, the winds of change are blowing, whether our leaders listen to it or not.
Yes, that's right, it'll be fun. It'll be fun to watch. All right, let's go to the view. Couldn't help but get some of this in there, just to be clear. It's not just because it's the view, it's because we also found some interesting news about the Biden administration pondering
parts for doctor Fauci. Liz Cheney and others. But before we get to that, there was an amazing moment between Charlemagne and Whoopi Goldberg where he calls her out because she defended Joe Biden, saying he never lied pardoning his son Hunter. Let's take a listen.
Oh, you know, nobody's above the law. I respect you know the jury's decision in regard to my son.
He didn't believe that, but he didn't have to volunteer that lie to begin with, I'm gonna stop you for a second only because you don't know that it was a lie.
We don't know why he changed.
You really think he just changed his mind over Thanksgiving weekend?
All, I'm gonna tell you what I think.
Okay, I think he changed his mind because he got sick of watching everybody else get over. And this is just my feeling because at some point you get to the place where you just go. So I'm just gonna follow the straight and narrow always because that's what's expected of Democrats.
But that's default on.
Out there, and they stand on this moral high ground. They don't have to do that.
I'm a Democrat. Tell me what the moral high grounded?
The moral high ground is nobody's above the law. I respect what the jurors is saying. He didn't know.
You don't have to mad at him because he changed his by.
The way, I'm not mad at him pardoning.
What is it that makes people flip the out with Joe but we don't have the same kind of thing.
Well, I don't think people are flipping out with Joe. I think Democrats are flipping out with Joe because Democrats believe that they don't represent what he's currently representing. But that's just not true. That's why I say they stand on this moral high ground that simply does not exist. And I think this is also the problem when we pick sides, right, we've turned political parties into teams. I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan. Ain't nobody more delusion to me?
Right?
Okay, I feel like we're going to the super Bowl every year. But I'm not delusional. Well, no, that is delusion. But when it comes to political parties, if you pick a side, right, if you say you're a Democrat, if you say you're a Republican, you refuse to be objective about that anything.
What do you even say about it? And look, it's the natural extension now of renegging on all of this previous discussion, because it's not only about the pardon for Hunter Biden, but the White House, let's put this on the screen, is now mulling pardons, preemptive sweeping pardons, just like the historic pardon of Hunter Biden, the most sweeping pardon in American history for quote unquote Adam Schiff, Liz Cheney,
and doctor Anthony Fauci. You know what's actually amazing about this, Crystal, is that, specifically, previously, remember the Supreme Court case about presidential immunity and the Biden discussion around that, the entire liberal intelligentsia was attacking the very mechanism that Biden would have to employ to give this quote unquote sweeping pardon of all of these figures. It's kind of legally complicated, but I looked into it in terms of what previous
people had said. But it has to do both with presidential immunity and the power of what it would take to actually enact something like this and legal and it specifically relies on that Supreme Court interpretation of the preemptive pardon. But more importantly, it's ridiculous from the point of the preemptive sweeping pardon. First of all, they told us that these people did nothing wrong, So why do they need a pardon? Especially fauci like that.
That is the one that really, I mean, because you've got people who are coming in who have an enemy's list, who said they're going to like that's a good go after and have retribution against them, so to be like, you know, even if you ultimately think they're going to be found innocent in a court of law, even if you believe that, then you know, just the investigation and the invasion of privacy and the harassment and the legal bills like multi six figures of legal bills or whatever, like, yeah,
I support him pardoning these people because you can't.
You can't, I mean, guys worth billions, don't try.
To parton Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, char Arles Kushner, Denesh Tosuza, like the list goes on and on and whatever randos that his son brought in, who like paid enough money to get in the door. So am I going to cry a river about when you've got a guy coming in who campaign on retribution, who put into place the people to you know, make good on those promises. Am I going to cry about them being like, no, we're
gonna you know, yes, we're gonna pardon these people. And I'm sure Democrats are going to run around saying like, oh, we don't want these pardons please, you know, like Adam Schiff has already said, like, oh I don't really want to pardon.
Yes they do. They just want to keep their hands clean. Listen.
My issue with all of this is just listen. If we're done with the norms, be done with the norms, and be done with the norms in not just a way that protects your elite buddies, which is what this is, or your son Hunter. Be done with the norms in
a way that actually delivers for regular people. That's my real grievance here is not with taking this action, which I think given what Trump has said, what he campaign on, and who he put in place, whatever, no one should be surprised that Joe Biden is moving in this direction. But okay, if we're done with norms, then let's be done with norms. Let's also listen, Joebien, you campaigned on and Ryan pointed this out, you campaign on any of
the death penalty. You've got forty inmates sitting on federal death throw right now, why not use these powers to commute their sentences if that's something that.
You believe in, which I also believe in.
By the way, if you've got non violent offenders that are in federal prisons, like, use these powers to help them out as well. That's more of my issue is when you're only using the powers to help your elite buddies. But again, I think you know, given what Trump said and who he's put into place, like, I'm not surprised and I'm not shocked and I'm not appalled by any of them.
No, I mean, sure, I'm not shocked by it either, but it's just so first of all, it's so deeply hypocritical for what it all, like previously was. But I mean, the point on Fauci is that that actually would be directly antithetical to any accountability that I think we believe in. I mean not Fauci not only lied to the American people, but he genuinely perjured himself multiple times before the US Congress and was complicit in the lab leak and helped
cover it up. If that's not a crime that should be you know, be prosecuted or whatever, then what is I mean, if we look back and we think about all the people who got away with the Iraq war, an you know, the great crimes of our life, like this is the poster child for what government accountability really should look like. Now, sure, I get the esthetic is not, you know, fun for a lot of people with whenever
you combine Adam Schiff and with Liz Cheney. But at the end of the day, like if we believe in elite accountability, preemptive and sweeping pardons, yes, even if they are for somebody who wants a quote unquote target list or whatever, I just think it's wrong, you know, especially with if this person was held up as the figure and the father of American medicine, he was defended to
the death by the media, by the government. I think he genuinely is a criminal, and he should face at least some accountability at the very least, okay, fine, a criminal prosecution or not real hearings, a real report, a real investigation. I think America deserves that after the fucking devastation of all of the years of COVID, I mean, did more damage to the public health system than anybody
else probably in modern history. And so when you think about like preemptively pardoning him, especially too, if you think about it, with a lot of people who supported Donald Trump or even RFK Junior another a lot of that was built on the public health distrust. So if we believe in any sort of a lead accountability, I think a pardoner for Founch in particular, that's the one that got made you shift whatever.
I mean, Listen, I think we should reform this unilateral power altogether. But the reality is there's a lot of selective outrage out there because when Trump was pardoning his buddies because they didn't want to testify against him, these same people who are outraged now didn't have a goddamn word to say. And unlike with Hunter Biden, where Joe Biden didn't come out and was like, I would never do that. You never said that about these people. So it's not like he lied in this instance or went
back in his word. You know this, I think that there is a reasonable point to be made that it is ridiculous and you end up looking like a fool and losing if you are the only side that is still committed to these norms. And so that was the message that was sent by the American people in the selection, and you know that's this is the world we live in now. So if you wanted to live in a world where doctor Fauci was held accountable, then you should
have objected. What you know, going back when Bill Clinton was letting his own brother off the hook, or when Donald Trump was letting Charles Kushner and Roger Stone Denesh to Susan all these people off the hook, Like, if you weren't outraged, then then spare me about you know, Adam Schiff getting apart.
So just because people have not been ideologically consistent means we should all continue the race to the bottom. I mean, that's just like a rhetorically, this.
Is where we are.
This is where we are, and it's not just like you know, some of these people who I don't like, like I don't you know, it doesn't mean that they committed crimes. Trump and Cash like they literally have an enemy's list. He literally ran on retribution. And so you think that given that rhetoric and given putting into place the mechanism to follow through on that, that the other side's not going to respond, Like of course they would be full what Republicans would do the exact same shit.
That is a fair argument. I don't disagree. It doesn't make it bad. I mean, it doesn't, you know, And I think that's what at least I'm trying to get it. And that's why I'm focusing on the Fauci one Shift, Liz Chaney whatever, I mean, Has Liz Cheney committed a crime? I mean in a moral sense? Yes? And has Adam
Shift committed a crime? Actually I don't know in terms of what that would look like with the Rush case, but with Fauci, I'm just so dead certain and so for him, like it would be like pardoning Scooter Libby, which who did that? By the way, which President Donald Trump? That's right? Who parted Scooter?
But I don't remember.
I don't remember a lot of outrage about that really from anyone right at that.
Boy, that's true, but that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. And it's like, look, you're right, do we live in a race to the bottom politics and all this like nihilism and having matters? I mean, look, you might be right, you know, it's certainly possible. Is there any ideological consistency? No, But this is politics and this
is Washington. It's always been that way. And in a sense with the Fauci thing, even in an Adam Schiff others or whatever, sweeping parties, but pardons that they would enact, it would be the ultimate admission maybe in a pr sense, that they didn't do anything wrong or sorry that they did do something to issue them.
I don't really think that's true when you have I mean, just when you have the rhteric coming from Trump and the fact that I mean they previously in the past, like for example, they launched investigation into John Kerry to basically like politically harass him in the previous Trump administration. So and he was never found guilty of it. They never even filed charges against him.
He's worth five hundred million leg sure, sure.
I'm not crying a river for John Carrey. I'm just saying the example already exists where it doesn't require you know, guilt for them to come after these people, and they're already making lists and they're already threatening even like you know, talk show hosts Ari Melburn was threatened as one example. So I you know, maybe maybe they should issue blanket media pardons across the board too.
Oh no, not, come on, it'd be better for the country. These people were taking off there. That would be that positive.
So I think I thought you supported free space of course been pre speech.
Absolutely, Did I think it was a good thing.
No?
Did I say it would be a need positive? Yes, it certainly would be. But it's like one of those where look, I think in general. First of all, do I believe that he will be coming after talk show hosts?
No, I don't.
Second, it's also, as I've said before, I also still believe in America's jurisprudence. If people genuinely are not guilty, Lady of that, then I think they'll probably be fine. Now, again, in this case of Fauci and of a few of the others that are supposedly on this list, it would be democrat. It would be anti democratic to actually prevent the government from being able to look into any of
these things. And look, maybe you can make a high IQ argument for it in the way that Ford pardon Nixon, which was a crazy move when we look back on it. He was like, the country needs to heal when our long national nightmare is over and we need to move on. But I mean, did that really provide like the real justice that a lot of people want, Because it wasn't about Nixon. It was really about the entire machine, you know, beneath and below him. Was that really a salve to the wounds that people felt?
I would say, no, here's my IQ take for you, Sagar, See what do you think of this one? If Fauchi's pardoned, then he can no longer plead the fifth true, and he's not in any legal jeopardy. He could say whatever, he can come clean, we could learn the truth.
Yeah, you're not wrong. Maybe that would be Maybe that would be a good trade. Maybe we'll take that trade. I don't know. I mean, I do want to hear it from his mouth that he lied.
I do.
I means, Look, we still need to know the details. Weren't we just talking about this? Exactly five years ago is when the first cases of COVID nineteen were beginning to come. Well, okay, the real first cases were when the lab leak happened in September twenty nineteen, as we all know. But the first like international cases that people were beginning to I think the first confirmed case in Wuhan was somewhere around.
That was such a crazy time, and it was so wild too, because remember, at the beginning was like only Tucker Carlson taking it seriously because there was like this like anti China lens to it, and then.
It's true, totally we should have shut our borders, which totally flipps Ago. My friend Bology stream of and I'll never forget he called me a January of twenty and twenty and he's like, you guys need to watch out. He's like, this thing is coming.
It's bad.
He's the one first people.
Who the one I remember is we had Matt Stoler on the show, Yeah Fab twenty two and he was like, I don't know why, we're just like bullshitting about whatever topic this is. In a few weeks, the whole country is going to be shut down and the whole world is going to be upended.
And that's what it was. Right, it was right.
I remember I was the first mask you know, I'm almost ashamed of it. I was one of the first people to work.
Oh you were, yeah, I remember you were in soccer was masking way before me.
I had the mask, I had all the emergency supplies when you can still get them on Amazon, So I was I was luckily early. I still have the goggles and my entire survival.
Get it's crazy.
It feels so surreal that all of that actually happens.
It's a wild time. Yeah, absolutely, it was only five years ago. Crazy. Okay, that was a fun show. I honestly enjoyed. Today. We will have if we need to. We'll come in with breaking news over the weekend. Otherwise, yeah, you all on Monday.