Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election.
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Very pleased to be joined once again by Professor Norm Finkelstein.
He is an author. He is an activist.
He is a political scientist, author of many books, including Gaza and Inquest into Martyrdom.
Great to see again her.
Thank you for having me.
So I wanted to start with I know there were a few interviews recent Louis, including one that occurred on our program, that caught your interest, and that can take some inaccuracies or claims that you thought were worth responding to. And so the first one that I wanted to get you to take a look at was a recent monologue from Bill Maher. Let's take a listen to a bit of that.
But eventually everybody comes to an accommodation except the Palestinians. Was it unjust that even a single Arab family was forced to move upon the founding of the Jewish state. Yes, but it's also not rare. And no one knows more about being pushed off land than the Jews, including being almost wholly kicked out of every Arab country they once lived in. Yes, TikTok fans ethnic ethnic cleansing happened both ways.
In Fedler. On the roof, the family is always moving to stay one step ahead of the Cossacks.
But they deal with it.
When they're leaving Antevka, they say, Hey, it wasn't so great anyway. Nobody was a bigger colonizer than the Muslim army that swept out of the Arabian desert and took over much of the world in a single century. And they didn't do it by asking. Is a reason Saudi
Arabia's flag is a sword. Arafat was offered ninety five percent of the West Bank and said no. The Palestinian people should know your leaders and the useful idiots on college campuses who are their allies, are not doing you any favors by keeping alive the river to the sea myth, I mean where do you think Israel is going spoiler alert nowhere?
So the sort of core of the point he is making is Jews got kicked down of a lot of countries too, and it's effectively time for Palestinians to get over it and move on.
Just as a general point, I find it rather amusing when I hear Bill Maher anticipating about I think you see the longer clip about the antheum, about the Roman Empire, about Muslim expansion. He knows as much about these topics as Joy Behar. The only difference between him and this Behar is she reads her factoids off of index cards. Well he reads them off of a monitor, and neither
of them is, my opinion, particularly funny. And I find it in a very poor taste in the midst of a genocide to making these rather impoverished attempts at humor where half the audience laughing uproariously sounds as if they were paid to laugh. But let's leave all that a site. Let's get to the factual matters. Here are the facts the Palestinians on the zion Is project. I'm not going to go through the whole history, I promise your listeners. Design This project begins roughly at the end of the
nineteenth century. Their aim was to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. Palestine was not empty. It became obvious to the indigenous population that the realization of Desionist enterprise to create a Jewish state would at minimum reduce them to second class citizens in their own place of birth, or at worst result in their expulsion. And design this movement coined in a locution they called a transfer. They didn't want to use the vulgar, gross term expulsion, so they
called it the transfer. And as Israel's leading historian, by the way, at this point, is extremely right wing. His name is Benny Morris, and you'll see him in all the right wing talk shows like Colman Hughes and others. Benny Marris said, and now I'm quoting the idea of transfer or expulsion. The idea of transfer was in built and inevitable in Zionism. Okay, now it happens. I wrote
my doctoral dissertation on Zionism. I know about the subject, but I never beit the labored the terminology because sometimes I think it afu skates the critical facts rather than enlightening them, sort of like nowadays when Palestinian supporters talk about settler colonialism. I don't find this kind of terminology enlightening. I think it obscures more than enlightens. But as a factual matter, as Benny Maherars said, the idea of transfer
or expulsion was inbuilt and inevitable in Zionism. Okay, and so the indigenous population of Palestine. The hour later they came to define themselves as Palestinian.
But the our Palestinian.
Population of Palestine naturally revolted against that prospect. In fact, Bending Morris writes, remember he's now a right wing historian, but Bending Morris writes that the driving force, the motor force of opposition to Zionism, was the prospect that the indigenous population was going to be expelled if this idea were realized. Now skipping far ahead, and not to tilt the scale in my direction, but just to bring us to an end before this one question, he consumes your whole program.
Come nineteen forty eight, a war breaks out. I'm not going to talk about who's right and who's wrong in the course of the war. But now, as Ben David Bengreen.
The first Prime Minister of the State of Israel, said, he quoted the famous French expression, which he still quoted when in war, do as in war, namely, here is a prospect. Now we have the opportunity to realize Asie in his dream. And the population from the area that became Israel, a ninety percent of the population from the area that became Israel was expelled, exactly what you would expect given what the ideology was, and an opportunity now
availed itself, and they became the Palestinian refugees. So now Bill Maher says, well, basically, he says, it's a done deal.
Get over it. I'm not going to.
Pass a judgment on that, now, you know, Crystal. And if you if you don't mind, I'd rather look at you than I look at myself, because I'm more more concerned about persuading you than persuading myself. I'm already persuaded, and body language is sometimes indicative, So I would like to look at you and where I see you're demurring, I'll stop and we'll continue. So he says, basically, get over it, now, you know, Crystal. Let's say you were fired for a job wrongly. What do you expect your
friends to do? Do you expect them to support you, or do you expect them saying Crystal, get over it.
I would hope they would support me, exactly.
So there is an obligation, a kind of moral obligation among those not directly the victim, to support those to the extent there to rectify or wrong. That's to me a moral responsibility. And then you might come to the conclusion, you know what, this is going nowhere, and I hope this person understands it's going nowhere and move on.
Okay.
The fact of the matter is, and I have to tell you I watched the Bill Maher segment this morning and several times I have to just, you know, take a breath because he's such an ignorant sack of shit. It just nauseates me when I'm listening to this. He hasn't a clue what the history is. He really doesn't know anything. This is the reason Bill Maher doesn't want kids to go to college. He says, it's a waste of time. Yeah, in college, you learned that before you speak your mind, you should actually.
Know a few facts.
There's supposed to read books, not just have note cards passed to you. So what are the facts and I'm perfectly willing now to say to Bill Maher to his face, if you disagree with me, have me on your program, Have me on your program, and we'll go through it step by step. Already as early as nineteen seventy six. Now, if I'm not mistaken, you were probably born around that time.
A little bit later, but yes.
Okay later. So before you were born, and I'd like you to sort of let that sink in. You were an adult woman already, you have children. I'm talking about before you were born. Already in nineteen seventy six, the Palestine Liberation Organization, which at that point was the Representative organization the palest Indian people, was supporting two states in the June nineteen sixty seven border. They were supporting the compromise.
They were already giving up before you were born. The Representative Organization of the Palestinians universally recognized the po They already.
Were ready to compromise. They gave up. And I hope this will sink into the minds of your listeners.
It's impossible that they will sink into the mind of Bill Maher because there isn't a mind. There's a blank space that's filled in with desperate attempts at being clever and funny for his paid listeners, but for everybody else. Before you were born, the Palestinians had already compromised.
They had already moved on.
They had given up on eighty percent of Palestine, the area that became the state of Israel, and they had resigned themselves, reconciled themselves to the prospect of a state just on the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, but the whole area that became Israel.
Before you were born, they had acquiesced in that reality. Now there is a question about the.
Fate and future of the Palestinian refugees, those who were expelled, And I will grant because I am an old fashioned believer in truth, and as a radical, I like to quote the better part of the radical tradition that says the truth is revolutionary.
Namely, there is no contradiction between the truth and.
Having revolutionary or radical aspirations.
So I'm not afraid of the truth.
It's not like truth is the enemy of revolution or truth is the enemy of a radical trend information.
Of our society and our world.
So it is true that this refugee question has been a great area. But if you look at all the negotiations, and I studied it very closely, and virtually not virtually, in all the negotiations, it was clear that the Palestinians were willing to, or their representative organizations were willing to make drastic, colossal compromises on the question of the return
of the Palestinian refugees. So any honest reckoning of the factual record will show you that the Palestinians had already compromised, had already given up the aspirations of one state from the river to the sea. Now, if there were any doubts,
just let me give you a few examples. So in the nineteen eighties, we're now going ahead, Okay, we're going from nineteen seventy six to in the early nineteen eighties, the Palestinians were making it very clear they were ready to compromise on two states in.
His Dark Palestine.
Their state would only compromise constitute twenty percent. The Israelis began to panic because they were afraid that international public opinion.
Would force them to relinquish control of.
The West Bank and Gaza, which they were determined to keep. And so in Israeli. An Israeli political scientist. His name is Avner Yanive very mainstream fellow. He since passed. I'm sure I think I'm the only one still alive everyway everybody the He said, what the Israelis feared, and I'd like this expession hopefully to sink into the minds of your listeners as well. What the Israelis feared was the
Palestinian Peace Offensive. The Palestinian Peace Offensive. They were terrified that the Palestinians were becoming too moderate and therefore pressure will be exerted by the international community to forest on Israel It's withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza to its pre June nineteen sixty seven borders.
So what did Israel do?
Israel fabricated in June nineteen eighty two and excuse to invade Lebanon. Why did the one to invade Lebanon because that's where the PLO was located at the time. They representative Palestinian organization. They wanted to distrude the PLO, not because it was radical, not because it wanted to create a state from the river to the sea. They wanted
to destroy the PLO because it was too moderate. A Palestinian peace offensive, okay, And in the course of that attempt to liquidate the excessively moderate PLO, Israel killed between fifteen and twenty thousand Palestinian and Lebanese overwhelmingly civilians. As a matter of fact, this last Israeli genocide in Gaza, it's for the first time exceeded the amount of death and destruction since the Lebanon War in nineteen eighty two. People already have completely forgotten.
And what was the care the war?
Why is real kill fifteen to twenty thousand Palestinian Lebanese overwhelmingly civilians, Because and Bill Maher, I'll be happy to come on your program, take out Avner Yannig's book and shove it in front of your face. Now, I know that will be torture. I understand that will be torture. Not the phrase, but having to look at the book. Having to look at the book. Now, I'm maybe you think you're protected under the Eighth Amendment against Cruel and Unusual punishment.
Okay, we'll go through that in court.
But yes, the Palestinian peace offensive now come nineteen eighty seven, the Palestinians absolutely despairing of ever ending this occupation of their lens. They went into a civil revolt. It was called the Intafadom. Okay, here's a side note for you and Crystal. I like you. I know you're a good listener, and I know you you sucking information and I appreciate that. I saw you with Robert Candy. It was a good show.
There's no question about that. You came up with arguments I wouldn't have come up at the spur of the moment.
It was good. It's very good.
You and Brianna represent the new Brianna joy Ray represent a new generation, a generation that's not afraid of the label anti Semite. Even though RFK kept trying to use that particular weapon in his arsenal, you didn't recoil.
You persisted. It's a new generation. I mean my generation.
You were terrified of doing what you did, terrified because of the charge of anti Semitism and then the practical repercussions.
You were another terrified norm I wasn't.
Terrified, but you know, I don't have physical courage, but I have moral Richard. I will never say something I don't believe it's not possible. I got that from my parents, and I will take that to my grave. In any event, So in nineteen eighty seventh, December seventh, nineteen eighty seven, nom Chomsky's birthday or December eighth, some people say December eighth my birthdays. So in any event, the first into Father the civil revolt.
Literally, it's the our book word for when the dog.
Shakes off its fleece at the quiesce in Palestinian people for so long and now shaking off their flees and going into civil vow.
I know I'm digressing the lot, but it's actually relevant when you hear.
You know, the claim was made against the College presidents during the hearings in Congress that the phrase into fad into fada means genocide, and they say, into father, into fada, the only solution is revolution, okay, And in fact it was a civil revolte.
I lived there at the time.
I was there every summer from nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety five, every single summer. Everybody knew I was Jewish. Everybody knew I was Jewish, and the only ones I fear. I'm not trying to make jokes. I mean I have a sense of humor. But as Ecclesiastes says, there's a time and place for everything. Now is not the time for humor. The only one I was afraid of was the Israeli army. It was very scary, you know. They were killing with abandon during that civil revolt.
There were times and I was in my apartment.
At night because I lived with Palestinian families in Bagshores, is right outside Bethlehem, and for our refugee camp. Right, it's for our refugee camp, and It'sraeli army invaded at light at night, came.
Into my apartment.
I was completely terrified, and there were roades you don't want to travel down because the settlers were throwing these stones.
But no, I wasn't afraid for s Channa side.
The people are so wonderful, so forthcoming, so generous, even Hamas numbers. No, I have to admit there was some concern with how much at the time when I find out that was Jewish in any event, come November nineteen eighty eight, Yes, Sir Arafat, I.
Mean I have to laugh, how stupid Bill Maher is.
Really he's joy Behar, He's joy Behar without the drag. November nineteen eighty eight, Arafat formerly, oh, I should say, because I use these terms like everybody knows the head of the PLO at the time, Yes Araba. He formally declares the Palestinian state, calls for Palestinian state on the June nineteen sixty seven border, a twesdtate solution. That's just a commonplace piece of knowledge. Anybody who knows anything about
the subject knows. November nineteen eighty eight, he declares for two states, and he felt that I don't want to get into all the dynamics, but people are willing to compromise from a position of strength, not from a position of weakness. That's just the nature of politics. Because from a position of weakness, do you feel like, well, if I'm not going to get anything, why not ask for the whole thing? Because it makes no difference if I
can't hope to get half a loaf. If I can't hope for half a loaf, then might not ask for the whole oath? Right In November nineteen eighty eight, it was during the First Into Father and it didn't make a nap. It did become a global issue the First Into Father. It did seriously dent Israel's public relations image.
Because I'll tell you I was teaching at that time, and.
I remember one student who was neither pro Palestinian nor pro Israeli whatever.
Those terms meaning. They're just hope me stupid.
He said one day in class, he said like this, the Palestinian Civil Revolt was famous. What was called for throwing stones, you know, throwing And he said like this in class, Stone, he held up his handing a stone Uzi. That was the known Israeli weapon. He's sort of the brand of Israel, the Uzzi stone Uzi. That's not fair, that's what he said, Stone, I remember you those thirty years ago, more than thirty years ago, Stone, And that
was the image that was being communicated transmitted internationally. So Israel was facing a major pr problem and our fact from a position of strength, because he thought he could win something. Now that the civil that the civil revolt had shifted international public the opinion, he thought he could win something, and he announced for formally, publicly, unambiguously, two states on the June nineteen sixty seventh border.
Now come.
Nineteen ninety three, the civil revolt was effectively repressed by the Israelis. They were very brutal in their repression of it, and Arafat entered from a position.
Of weakness, not strength, what came to be.
Called the Oslo a Cord, and basically what the Oslo Court was. It said, we recognize Israel, meaning Yasir Arafat, we recognize the.
State of Israel. And it's June nineteen sixty seven border.
All of that forgotten by Bill Maher, who's so clever, he's so smart, with his factoid supplied to him by the Israeli councilors. The Oslo Court has vanished, and he says, and what the Palestinians get in return will Actually they've got nothing in return because he was negotiating from a position of weakness at that point, ara Eva. What he got was a promise that we'll figure out what to do sometime in the future. It was supposed to be five years what was called the interim period, and the
five years past and got nothing. I have already gone through in a previous show what happened in two thousand where Hillary Clinton's imagine she got carried away. So I'm not going to not that she's ever been very well. Yeah, a certain point in her life she's actually decent, but her memory is now very selective to the extended that ever makes any connection with reality. But the bottom line
from the period afterwards. Now we have a very simple way of testing who is and who isn't or which side is on which side isn't willing to compromise on this question. I would say we have an unequivocal record, and the record is this, And I would help your viewers who have an interest in the subject, would simply go and check out what them have to say every year for about two decades, and about two decades, maybe a little more every year, let's just check that.
You'll allow me.
I I have it.
Okay, No, Actually it's from nineteen ninety seven. So if I can ask you in my book Gaza An Inquest into its Marden, turn to page.
Twenty eight.
Okay, okay.
Now the United.
Nations General Assembly, based on international law.
Can I look at you again?
I find it troubling looking at myself because it becomes a distraction.
Thank you.
Every year the United Nations General Assembly, it's contrived a resolution terms for resolving the conflict. As the title of the resolution, it says peaceful resolution of the Question of Palestine, and its resolution is based on international law. The international law recognizes the state of Israel. That's not a quarrel an international law. It's a member of state of the United Nations. As a member of state of the United Nations, it has the same rights and do thees rights and
obligations as any other state. So the General Assembly contrives a resolution based on all the elements of international law. I would stress that the International Court of Justice itself in two thousand and four, July two thousand and four, it made a determination on all the critical questions bearing on the question of Palestine. So this resolution is a synthesis of the opinion of the General Assembly on the one hand and the International Court.
Of Justice on the other hand.
Okay, the supreme political body in the world and the supreme legal body in the world. All right, supreme and most representatives. So if you look at the voting record, I know, Bill Marvis is going to be very painful. I recognize it's a printed document and having to go through a printed document may constitutes torment.
And torture for you. But if you go through the printed document, I have here the lineup of how did the world vote on.
This compromised resolution based on international law? Because Bill Maher says, the Palestinians don't want to compromise. The Parestonians are so stubborn in trying to return to the past, and why can't they just get over it? Okay, they want from the river to the sea. They want to return to the status quo Anti nineteen forty seven. Well, this resolution calls for two states on the June nineteen sixty seven border in accordance with international law and all the other
aspects of international law. Time doesn't allow me to go through each one, though, if you ask me, I'm happy to go through it. So let's look at the voting record nineteen ninety seven. So the record is the number of states who vote for it, those who upstained, and those who oppose or she said, excuse me, the number of states who vote for it, the number who are posed it, and the number of abstensions. Okay, what was nineteen ninety seven?
We had one hundred and fifty five yes, two no, and three abstained.
Right. Who are the two no?
That would be Israel in the United States of America.
Okay, So who is it that's the obstacle to peace? Is it the world or is it the United States and Israel. Let's look at two thousand and one, or you know what you do it you choose arbitraity because I have every year, choose a day, choose a year.
Yeah, I mean every year.
It's basically, you know, everybody in the world against Israel, the US and a few of our close allies.
So for example, and we're.
Not even their allies.
Yes, the Islands two thousand and six, it's one hundred and fifty seven yes, is seven Nos ten abstained the nose were Israel, the US, Australia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, and Palau.
Two thousand and eight. What's the vote?
One sixty four yes, seven to no three abstained The knows are Israel, US, Australia, the same group, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Apollo.
Yeah.
But a coin to Bill, a coint to Bill bar it's those stubborn Palestinians for are the obstacle to resolve in the conflict.
I wanted to ask you because this has been a persistent, I think mythology in American politics, American media with you know, and a lot of Americans have bought into this mythology that the Israelis are deeply interested in peace. They want a peaceful settlement. This goes back to the conversation we had where Hillary Clinton says, you know, it was all there on the table for Yaser Arafat and he walks away. And this is repeated routinely by any number of the
political media class. There are some interesting comments recently from BB Nannyahu which should surprise no one, but still would land as shocking, I think to a lot of the American public. If we could put this up on this green guys, this is the fourth tear sheet that we have. I'm proud of blocked to Palestine state looking at Gaza.
Everyone sees what would have happened. And what I was curious about with you, norm is, first of all, you know, were you surprised that he made those comments so nakedly? And second of all, do you think that some of this mythology surrounding who the quote unquote partner for peace is and who has been the primary obstacle to peace may break down with the American public.
I can't say I'm surprised.
Look, Benjamin Natanielle is the longest sitting prime minister in Israeli history, he's as representative of Israeli opinion as anybody ever has been in Israeli history. If he keeps winning, it's because even despite all the scandals, it is because people when they see Benjamin Nataniello in the Israelians, when they see Benjamin Thatano, they see themselves. He's a representative of Israeli public opinion, an Israeli public opinion. It's true,
it's shifted. Uh, there's no longer a veneer in Israeli society of being civilized.
It's shifted to the far right.
Uh.
You could say in.
Israel nowadays there's a right, there's a far right, and there's an ultra right.
There's no center. No.
You take the other day, I was debating to the extent that was debated, uh Alan Dershowitz and the peer Pierce Morgan program, and he says that natan Yahoo, he's not going to be an office because Pierce Morgan made the same point as you just made. Is against a Fata land. He's a Fata meaning the main secular Palestinian faction. He's against the Hamas land. He's against anything. And Dershwitz, who likes to pretend he supports a Tuesday settlement.
He said, well, he's not going to be prime minister.
It's probably going to be a national coalition after Netanyahu, and he had guns, the solo Guns is going to be the new head of state. Yeah, who is guns?
Guns?
Was the chief of staff during Operation Protective Edge in twenty fourteen where Israel killed about twenty two hundred people in Gaza, destroyed eighteen thousand homes.
And when he ran for office, when he ran against Natan Yahu, do you know what then how he ran?
He ran on a video showing the destruction of Gazam Wow, Judeo was a video and boasting that was his achievement, that he had level of gozip And this was this was the person who Professor Dershowitz was talenting as being more humane and reasonable than Benjamin Netanyahu.
That's in the Israeli position.
Now let's be clear, and here you have to have I don't like the words so much very much, but okay, I'll use it. You have to be attentive to nuances and nuances and subtleties. It is true that when Israel was under a what's called a labor government or a roughly labor government. Quote unquote left wing.
There are more forthcoming than the current leadership.
As I said, is the shift the spectrum has shifted Israel as an ultra right society. It's actually, to my knowledge, I could be wrong. I always admit to the possibility of error. It's very unique in the world because in other countries you have ultra right. Let's say take Brazil, you have characters like both scenario okay, an ultra right figure, but the societies are generally divided between an ultra right and a left. So for a teaching both scenario supporter,
you have a Ulah supporter. There is a real solid opposition. There's no opposition in Israel. There's a right, there's a far right, and there's an ultra right. There's no left. Nobody talks about a left candidate coming into into power in Israel. Right, So it is true that labor was under the so called left. In Israel, there were more forthcoming.
I won't deny that. My predom and life never quarrel effects. I won't deny that.
But we have to be clear that no government in Israel, no government in Israel, has ever accepted the international consensus, the legal consensus for resolving the conflict.
So when you were reading off that list, bear.
In mind that was during the period, because we're going back to nineteen ninety seven's.
From a period where the so called peace nick Yitshak Rabin. Okay, he was assassinated in nineteen ninety.
Five, but his successors they were in power, right, and they always whether it.
Was labor, the peacenicks, or could the warhooks across the spectrum, they all oppose the legal consensus. Mister mar.
I'm not talking about the PLO program. I'm talking about the International Court of Justice. Fifteen judges, fifteen justices. No, the International Court Justice, they're called judges. I'm the fifteen judges. Even the American judge, his name is Bergen. At the those name was Burgendale. Even he said there can be no question under international law that Israeli settlements in the
West Bank are illegal under international law. All fifteen Now, no Israeli government, none has ever entertained the possibility of eliminating the settlements that were illegally planted in Israel.
Not the labor, not the la could not the left, not the right. Now here's the kicker. Now brace yourself for this.
This is the Palestinians who won't compromise, Who are the obstacle to resolving the conflict? You sick sack of shit, mister mamaer, whatever your name is, you six sack of shit. If you look at the negotiations, the Palestines offered to let sixty percent of the settlements remain in place. Sixty percent of the settlements remain in place. They were presenting maps. We have the maps, and the maps show that according to where you draw the border, sixty percent of the
illegal Israeli settlements would remain in place. The Palestinians on the settlements compromise, even though under international law they were illegal, including the judgment of Bergen Judge Bergen Voul and the ICJ and the International Court of Justice, they were willing to compromise.
The question of the.
Refugees right now, according to the official count, there are about six million refugees. The Palestinians who are willing to accept a figure in the hundreds of thousands returning back maybe something like I have to admit, you know, there's gray area here, but you could say, roughly, if you look at the figures that were thrown around, maybe half a million to return okay.
On the question of borders.
Palestinians were willing to rewrite the border so long as they got in exchange equal sized lat what they're called landslaps, had to be of equal size, had to be of equal quality. So we're not giving up the best arable land in the West Bank. So you're going to give us some desert in the south of Hebron. So it had to be roughly equal size and.
Quality. But we'll rewrite the border.
We're willing to rewrite the border, make minor border adjustments to account for facts on the ground since nineteen sixty seven, and they even made some compromises on Jerusalem, even though under international law, Jerusalem East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory because it was acquired during the June nineteen sixty seven war, and therefore, as occupied.
Territory it belongs to the Palestinians. Israel has no title.
To territory it acquired in the course of the war. That's international law. So across the board, if you go through it, they were willing to make compromises on the basis of the UN resolution. They were willing to accept less. They were willing to accept less than the un resolution. Now, if there's any question, if there's any question, it's very simple. Why is the whole world on one side, the whole world and the United States, Israel, and the South Pacific atolls.
On the other side? Why is that? Are they all anti submitted? Now?
The other day I saw an interview with Professor Dershowitz and fellow from Al Jazeera. Very intelligent young men. He didn't know all the facts, but he knew enough.
Okay.
So he starts quoting something from UNICEF. Professor Dershowett says, they're pro hamas. He says, quotes something from UNESCO. There pro hamas. Then he quotes something from Human Rights Watch. Their pro hamas. Then he quotes Greta Thurnberg from the Climate Change Mum, she's pro hamas. At this point. At this point, the interlocular, the U Katari fellow. He said, Professor, is there anyone in the world who's not pro hamas except for Israel? And you?
That's Bill mah No.
You may think it's funny, but that's Bill Maher. You see, according to Bill Maher, all the countries in the world except for the United States and Israel, all the countries in the world and all the justices in the International Court of Justice. They must all be well, not pro Hamas, but pro Palestinian. There wasn't even Ahamas at this time, really right, not no politically significant h huh. They must all be pro Palestinian the whole world or anti submitted.
The whole world must be anti submitted. On the International Court of Justice at the time, there was a woman, the British judge named Rosalind Higgins.
She went with the majority.
On the ICJ, there was Bergenval who calls himself a Holocaust survivor. He's just passed, obviously Jewish. He went overwhelmingly with the majority. There are a couple of points not worth going into where he had differences. But everybody in the world must be a spoiler. They must all be like the Palestinians. They must be guard to Bill mahk that the Palestinians are the obstacles.
But the Palestinians were willing to compromise even.
More, even more than what the United Nations General Assembly and.
The ICJ said legally they were entitled to.
Well, normal, I want to get to Anail also took an interest in the interview that we had with presidential candidate RFK Junior, where he made a variety of claims. I pulled two different clips that I wanted to get you to respond to because they both elements that you know, I haven't just heard from him. These are things that
I hear repeated rather often. The first one has to deal with his assertion that, you know, the Palestinians I'm paraphrasing here, will let him say it himself, but essentially, the Palestinians are so bad that even the neighboring Arab states like Egypt didn't want them.
Let's take a listen to that piece.
So President Biden's administration, they have said that they have no red lines for the State of Israel and their conduct in this war. Do you have any red lines for Israel?
Well, you know the red lines are they?
You know, you don't deliver.
You do everything you can, which I think Israel is doing right to avoid civilian casually. You know, there's collateral damage in every war, and they're fighting an implacable anime. I mean, I don't think there's any country in the world that would go as far as Israel has gone to not invade guys. I mean, Israel was being bombed by Amas took over God and Israel.
Walked out of God. There's no occupation of God.
Well, there's a black hate because because God, because Hamas declared war on Israel and said suicide bombers off. So they put up a fence so that it's there. You know, that's like a that's like the guy who kills his father, his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan.
You know, for them to say that.
They're black hated, they're black. Yeah, they're black head. And it's not just Israel, it's block hating is Egypt. Everybody has a problem with a moss.
You know.
In fact, the after the seventy three war, after the sixty seven war, Israel tried to give a moss back the Egypt and Egypt didn't want to take it because I mean God, sorry, Gods it back to Egypt. Egypt didn't want to take it because of the you know, the high level of religious militant.
Is So I wonder what your response is to that last piece, in particular where he asserts, you know, the neighboring countries don't want to deal with these people either. And so it's not just on Israel, and this is illustrative of how magnanimous Israel has been towards the Palestinians.
Okay, there are three questions there, and I'm going to ask you to remember them because my memory is shot.
Okay, I'll write them down from a.
Combination of old age and mental exhaustion.
Since Octoby seven, I'm thinking of going to small claim spurt ensuing Hamas for senior citizen abuse because last two months have been just the horror in my life. So there are three questions that Robert Kennedy raised. Number one about Israel doing all you can to avoid civilian casualties.
Number two, the claim about Israel.
Having withdrawn from Gaza in two thousand and five, and number three the question of Egypt. So, because I respect you and I noticed that your last interview with me, or one of the last interviews with me, got a lot of viewers. And the point is to educate and try to persuade, I'm going to say you take I'll do this. I'll stay here till the end of time, which in my case may not be too long from
now to clarify these issues. So let's start with the Israel's doing everything it can, okay to avoids laying passionties first of all, and there have been many comparative studies with Israel the number of deaths in gazas compared to every other conflict in the past twenty five years in this century, and Israel's just in the category all its own. Let's just take one example, which would be familiar to
all of your listeners. You know, I'm going to go off in diressions, but I have to because everything is really important. I was very angry at Bernie Sanders after what happened in October seventh and how.
He acquitted himself. I was furious. I was furious with him on a political level.
Because I invested a lot in his candidacy, as did a large number of young people. And I was also disgusted with him. And I'm not trying to play the Jewish card, but as a Jew that he had said. He didn't boast about it, he wasn't wearing down on his shoulder, but he said that.
You know, a large far.
Part of his family perished in Poland during the Nazi Holocaust. Obviously was reson it was a sensitive court for him. And then the state he was making. You know, they were just ghastly, ghastly. I was walking around the streets cursing him.
I was so angry.
But you know, if you'll allow me, I know, these seemed like digressions, but everything comes together in my mind, and they'll try to bring it together in your mind.
A long time ago, in our.
Own country, there were the abolitionists, the white abolitionists who fought for the rights of African American people tenn slavery and then after to fight for their equal rights in the German reconstruction. There was one fellow named William Garrison. He was a very famous abolitionist, and after the Civil War he opposed giving the rights a vote to black people. He said they weren't ready, and he was criticized heavily for it. Eventually he changed his mind and he recognized
he was wrong. And Frederick Douglas writing about Frederick Douglas writing about Garrison and the fact that he opposed the right to vote and then reversed himself.
He had a very nice line. Douglas was a brilliant stylist writer.
He said, a man's head will not long remain wrong when his heart is right. A man's head will not long remain will not long remain wrong when his heart is right.
And that was Bernie.
I said to my friends, I think he's going to backtrack. He's going to backtrack. And then one night I was exercising and watching I said, oh, Bernie, unseaspam, let's see what a guy has to say. No, And I expected the usual, and then suddenly he said, there have been more.
Civilians killed in Gaza in two months.
Then have been killed in Ukraine in two years, Ukraine in two years. The current figure is ten thousand civilians killed in Gaza. It's twenty thousand and two months, two years, two months.
Yeah, okay, and that friends from Douglas came to mind.
A man's if a man's a man's mind cannot be long wrong long if his heart is right.
Robert Kennedy, on the other side, is a complete sleeves bag, a sack of shit like Bill Mahr to be saying that Israel is doing everything possible. When you look just at the number of child deaths in Israel in Gaza, it's one hundred and thirty six per day. And the next conflict area in the world, the next goes from five per day downwards one hundred and thirty six. If you look at the barograph, the next conflict is five per day going downwards. And this sack of shit is
revolting opportunists. This genocide apologist, Robert F. Kennedy says they're doing everything possible. Fifty percent, fifty percent of all of Gaza's civilian infrastructure, houses, factories, fifty percent has been leveled. Imagine if you were walking down the street and you're going for miles, let's call it twenty seven miles, which is Gaza's length, and you discover as you're walking down the street, everything to the left of you is flattened.
Every single building to the left of you for twenty seven miles is.
Now a parking lot.
You would call that doing everything possible to avoid civilian casualties. Now, Human Rights Watch is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a radical organization. Okay, it's very mainstream. It issued in the past two weeks a couple of reports. One report is entitled Gaza unlawful Israeli hospital strikes worse in health crisis. Israel has systematically methodically targeted all the hospitals in Gaza of thirty two hospitals in Gaza, which we would call
real hospitals. I talked the other day to doctor Gassan Abusita, who knows the medical system in Gaza very well.
He goes back there during every siege. He's a real hero. I told him, you know, don't praise me so I don't have your physical courage.
He was in Al Ali hospital during that attack, and then he was in Al Shifa and he said, of the thirty two, I asked him, how many hospitals are still operative? He said, of the thirty two hospitals four.
Okay.
Now, there is no example in modern history, none of the systematic and methodical targeting of hospitals.
It doesn't exist.
That crosses a negative threshold into barbarism, a negative threshold into barbarism.
The targeting of the wounded and the lane, the new born, and the near dead.
That's what hospitals are, and that's what the targeted is. Human Rights Watch have to say, quote, Human Rights Watch has not been able to corroborate or seen any information that would justify attacks on Gaza's hospitals.
No information that would justify.
Israel's attack on Gazza's hospitals Now Robert Kennedy talks about warning people to leave. What other country with issue warnings for them to leave, for example, the hospitals? Okay, what does Human Rights Watch say? Those warnings were absolutely meaningless because there was nowhere to flee. And how can people in hospitals flee here, mister Kennedy, reality check. You know why they're in hospitals because they are immobile. That's why
they're in hospitals. It says that Human Rights Watch is concerned that the purpose of these warnings was not to protect civilians, but to terrify them into leaving. That's a mainstream human rights watch or Human Rights Watch, which is a mainstream organization. Quoting again, Israel's broad based attack on Gaza's healthcare system is an attack on the sick and the injury on babies in incubators. These actions need to
be investigated as war crimes. But according to Robert Kennedy, no other country in the world in the history of humankind has ever done more to protect civilians and to act discriminately than Israel.
Look at the numbers. Just look at the numbers. If you were to randomly, indiscriminately.
Attack or target any area on Gazip any area in Gozip, you would any area randomly, you would get roughly fifty percent would be children, twenty five percent would be women, and twenty five percent men roughly. Okay, if you look at the actual statistic, what is it. It's forty three percent children, about twenty five percent women and twenty five percent. Then you know what that means. It means they're being
targeted indiscriminately. That's why you have those proportions, because that's the proportion of that's the proportional breakdown of children, women, and men in Gaza. So if you just overlay the actual demographic breakdown in Gaza with the casualties in Gaza, it's exactly the same. Why because they're indiscriminately being attacked. That's why you have those proportions. There's no other conflict in the modern world where you have those percentages for women and children.
Not even going.
Now. Human Rights Watch released another report yesterday about this country that's doing everything it can. According to Robert Kennedy or Shmuley body a is puppeteer, Israel is doing everything possible.
Okay, So Israel announced the first week of its assault and Gaza it's gonna bar any food, fuel, electricity.
Or water to enter Gozzam. Now did they say they're going to bar a just to Hamas. That's not what they said.
Now, mister Kennedy and your compound, you're Kennedy compound.
If all the food, fuel, water and electric were turned off.
And those are blockade, what do you think would happen to everybody in your compound?
How long would they survive? Would they survive? Two months? So what does Human Rights Watch say?
The report issued yesterday December eighteenth, the headline Starvation used as weapon of war in Gaza? Starvation used as weapon of war in Gaza? What's the first bullet point? The Israeli government is using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare in the Gaza strip. It's depriving the civilian population of objects indispensable to their survival. And then it says the people of Gaza are now suffering severe levels
of hunger. In fact, the World Food Program it stated two days ago that fifty percent of God's population as we speak, as Bill Laher is making his sick jokes, humoring his sick audience of six sacks of shit like himself in the middle of that's so funny, and they're so uproariously laughing, though I do believe half of the people laughing are paying to laugh, but got to side from the point, or or got in exchange, you know, got tickets in exchange.
Your problems need to laugh.
And that moron, he's making all his jokes. Oh, it's so funny, it's so funny. You six sack of shit that fifty percent of the population of Gaza is starving today. Oh, that's so funny, that's so so funny. Just think of a nazine in a nightclub or a cabaret in Germany making those kinds of jokes while Jews were dying to the left and right, dropping like flies in the Warsaw ghetto.
I remember my mother. My mother never really talked about the worst asked. She didn't talk about the concentration campra, she didn't.
What she constantly talked to me about was the hunger, hunger, the walking through the ghetto because there were all the typhus and the other transmittable diseases. So people were dying on the left and the right and walking through and she did the pangs of hunger.
And just imagine a Nazi a Nazi comedian.
In a cabaret like Bill Maher his horn written glasses, thinks he's going to look intelligent by putting on those glasses. He suddenly becomes serious making those jokes as half the population in gazam is, according to the World Food Program, now suffering from starvation, or according to.
Robert F.
Kennedy, they're doing everything they can to protect civilians. And then they quote, they quote from this country that's doing everything they can to protect civilians.
So here's one quote they quote.
There are many, there's a long list that Human Rights Watch quotes. Here's one from a senior Israeli official in the civil administration.
He says, this is from November fourth.
Whoever returns to Gaza, if they return here, if they return here, will find scorched earth, no houses, no agriculture.
No nothing. They have no future. Yes, mister Kennedy, Yes, mister Kennedy.
They're doing everything in their power not to kill civilians.
They're very discriminating. Whoever returns here will.
Find scorched earth, no houses, no agriculture, no nothing.
They have no future.
Wow, norm what about the claim that he made about Egypt.
Okay, just I'm going to get to the second, and they'll get to the Egypt.
Sure.
The second was that Israel withdrew from Gaza in two thousand and five.
There's no disputed among them about that, among international among international lawyers and international organizations, even Israel's senior expert in international law, who's very conservative. You're a dnstin, he said, this reel remains an occupying power in gods. It controls everything. It controls who goes in, who goes out, what goes in, what goes out. It controls the population registry who qualifies
as being a Gazan. It controls the water ways, It controls the airspace and controls the water.
Just for your listeners, just you listen.
I just want them to know what it meant, what it meant for the people of Gaza, what this blockade of Godza meant when Israel no longer controlled it. It's not an occupying power, says the lawyer.
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So, at certain points, here is a partial list of the things Israel ban from entering Gaza simultaneously, not like one of the time, Okay, right, right, then, Sage Coriander Ginger, jam Halva Vinegar nutmeg, chocolate, chocolate, fruit preserves, nuts, biscuits, potato chips, musical instruments, notebooks, writing implements, toys, chicks, and goats.
But Gazza is a free country Israel left, says Robert Kennedy. Israel doesn't occupy Gaza.
There was a point where Israel put on people of Gaza a humanitarian minimum of calories, humanitarian minimum of calories.
That means they put the people.
Of Gaza on a starvation plus diet. But they have no responsibility what's going on in Gaza. They withdrew. The occupation is over, as I said, As far as I know, no international organization or international law specialists claims that the occupation ended when Israel. What Israel did was very simple. Anybody can understand it. Child can understand it. Israel got tired of policing Gazam because they said, there's no future here. We have eight thousand settlers. There are two million Gaza
Arabs here. So we're never going to get rid of these Arabs and we'll never be able to do with it what we hope to do in the West Bank, you know, change the balance of population.
So just forget it. So you know, what they did, they took it. So there are things like in Ghaza. Gozms couldn't go to the beach. Okay.
So they said, we'll throw the keys in the jail cells and let them out of the jail cells.
Okay. And then they withdrew from the jail or the prison.
They drew from the prison, slammed shut the gates, and then encircled.
The whole prison. Okay.
Now, yes, the prisoners had more freedom of movement. I'm not gonna deny that they now could go to the beach, It's true. But they can't go anywhere else. They can't go out. Nothing can come in jam, chocolate, nothing, Sage Coriander would anyone in his or her right mind describing that as Israel left Gaza. What they did was they encircled it. They didn't leave Gaza. I'll just give you an example. People don't like to hear my examples. Unfortunately,
my examples don't come from my head. They come from the Israeli heads.
Okay.
So the head of Israel's National Security Council's name is Gira was now was Gira Island.
You can google it.
Just go right now, go in front of your computer, just google Gio R A and then the last name E I, L A N D and then.
Editor March two thousand and four.
March two thousand and four, and the document's going to come up the first choice.
The first one is Gaza. The ruin Gaza is a huge concentration camp.
Right Dora Island. If you look at it's item number twelve in this numerandum. He was the head of the National Security Council Okay of Israel, equivalent of our James Burns, the current.
Head of the CIA.
So in two thousand and four, two thousand and four, this is before the blockade, before the blockade. If you go to that item, he describes guys Gouds as quote a huge concentration camp, a huge concentration camp. And then you hear people saying, there's this young man who had got into a long correspondence with I'm not going to name them because I don't want to resume that corresponse. He keeps saying, God's is a developing country, developing country.
Nothing can come and nothing can go out.
It's a huge concentration gamp. It's before the blockade. He described it the island as such, so we can dispose of that issue, whether or not God's it remains occupying. Let's go to the favorite question. Now, I'll tell you, I admit and maybe there's I struggle between my political.
Side and my humanitarian side.
Now, under international law, Egypt is a sovereign country and has the right to decide who comes in and who goes out. It's called immigration and immigration. No, they don't have the right decide who goes out, but they have the right to decide who comes in.
And there is an entry point, the Rafa crossing between Egypt and Gaza.
Now Egypt's position, I don't defend the Egyptian government. C sees a monster. He came to cop power in the military coup, and the course of that coup he committed the largest massacre of Egyptians in Egyptian history.
The our well, I can't remember another. Now they'll come back to me.
In any case, you're at least a thousand, maybe as many as two thousand, non violent protesters. It's again to power. So I'm making no brief for mister c c Right. However, there is a real problem here. The problem is, and I admit, it's a moral it's a moral dilemma. Once you leave, guys that you're not coming back. It's over. We know that from Israel's history. We know that from the refugees in forty eight, we know that from refugees
in nineteen sixty seven. Once you're out, it's goodbye. Egypt doesn't want to help Israel assist Israel in committing an ethnic.
Cleansing, So now you have really I consider it. It is a dilemma.
On the one hand, people are being starved to death, they're being murdered from the eyes, and they need refuge.
On the other hand, it's a permanent refuge.
And so Egypt says it won't facilitate, it won't a bet, it won't assist Israel in its ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
What do you do?
On the one hand, I say, oh, f politics, these people are being killed, these people are being murdered, let them go.
And no. But on the other hand, do you want to.
Wittingly and unwittingly, because it's at the same time willfully and unwilfully assists Israel and ethnic cleansing. I don't think that's an easy question. You know, I don't have an answer to that. Am I going to start demanding that Egypt open its border and let them all pour into that.
All the people have got support into the Sinai desert.
No, actually, if I had a choice, I would rather demand that Israel stop committing Gennacaie rather than saying open up Rapha, I'll say stop committing the Gennacaie.
If I had to choose between the two.
And let's be clear about it, Professor Chomsky would always distinguished him and his analysis of any world situation was he did basically what you did when you talk with Robert Kennedy, because you were insistent, because he kept in trying to insinuate you're an anti semi why are you focusing on Israel? And you kept replying because we're paying for the whole thing. And Professor Chomsky would always come
back to it's our responsibility because we're making it happen. Now, let's be clear, and I don't want him there to be any doubt about it. As a factual matter, the whole thing would end in the United States. If mister Biden picked up a phone right now and said stop, it would be all over.
It wouldn't last one second more. If Biden said stop, remember it.
It feels dependent on our arms, and right now it's economy has become dysfunctional because there are hundreds of thousands of soldiers who are fighting, or they're not really fighting, they're committing a massacre of genocide. Who's Israeli society would cease the function without the US leaving aside the political fallout if the United States went switched to supporting a ceasefire.
So the whole thing couldn't happen without the US literally old by, you know, Biden.
Biden said, you have to pretend that you're doing some humanitarian gestures.
You know that than forty trucks. Immediately they did it. They did it. They knew they had no choice. So if you ask me if I had a choice, just let me finish. And of course I want to hear you if I have a.
Choice between advocating Egypt opened up Ralpha crossing and saying Biden stopped the genocide because.
It is his genocide. It is his genocide. And Bernie, you know it's coming pretty close. It's too late, it's too late, or I should say it's too little, but it's never too late. You have to be clear about that. Half the population is now starving.
So if it were to end tomorrow and that Bernie has joined the bandwagon it has to end tomorrow, then it's not too late. He has five thousand children's deaths to account for, because it was only I think it was five or six thousand when he started to change his tomb and now you know, he's surprised a going for congressional legislation to restrict you know, he's not been you know, I uh, I have to be attentive to facts and I have to recognize, you know, you changed.
I think it was it was unbearable for him because he was all these young people saying how he let them down? And you know, people have egos, and he was the hope of a generation. He was the hope of a generation, and he became an abomination. And you can imagine his children and his grandchildren, Daddy, Grandpa, why are you opposing a cease fire?
You know? And he couldn't.
Obviously, it's very hard to plumb the human mind, and so what's the point of being a psychoanalyst from Afar?
Yeah, it was I think in that for a while people could kind of like fantasize that maybe there was some more ethical targeting of Hamas that was on the table. But at a certain point when you see the numbers, I mean very quickly and just knowing that it's the net Nyahoo government, knowing you know, any of the history, you could immediately see that was never some targeted you know, raid to just take out a few top Hamas leaders and try to win over the civilian population. That was
It was never going to be. That was never on the table as a response to what happened on October seventh.
I now that you brought that up, you know, people act, I don't fault them. You know, I had devolowed the whole of my adult life to.
This against my will.
I never knew what I was getting into the wars beginning, war's end, and then you figure you'll move on. I got involved in nineteen eighty two. Who would think that would consume my entire adult life?
Wow? And so I can understand people not knowing all the facts.
How would they It took me me intensive study twenty four seven, three sixty five to learn the facts. So I'm not faulting anyone. I'm just saying it's a factual matter. Let's say this whole thing that came up with Israel fighting, firing and killing three civilians who were carrying white flags, right, and everyone's shocked. And then I posted on my website.
In two thousand and nine, Human Rights Watch put out a report right after Operation cast LT between December twenty seventh, in January seven, twenty seven, two thousand and eight, and January seventeen, two thousand and nine, and the report was entitled white Flag Killings. It's only shoot speaker with white flags. There's nothing new there, right, It's not like it was what's I knew I was? They killed Israelis.
That's why people paid attention.
It only shoots people with white flags, or shoots Palestinians with white flags.
So people say, oh, because of the special circumstances of what happened on October seventh, it's enraged Israelis and it's it's because of that that they're acting carried on this way.
So I would like to ask you in check the time, Okay, I would like to ask you turn the page of my Gaza book. Turn to page two thousand and nine.
All right, in the Gaza book.
Yes, it's table four.
All right, here we go, I found it, okay, Table four. How Israel fought Operation Protective Edge. A selection of IDF testimony is that one.
Yes, Now, I'd like you to bear in mind before I ask you to read it, that these are soldiers who form in Operation Protective Edge before October seven, turning about twenty fourteen. Okay, or and every soldier you say not peace snakes right? Well, see except for one. There are no apologies, no feelings of remorse. They're just matter of fact, we describing.
What they did in Gaza. Okay.
Now, just going to ask you to read down. Skip the numbers, because that's just the page numbers. And for each different testimony. Just do this because it's will be easier for the listener. Just go soldier and then read the testimony. Soldier, read another testimony, just read them for the listeners.
Okay, So Soldier, when we left after the operation, it was just a barren stretch of desert. We spoke about it a lot amongst ourselves, the guys from the company. How crazy the amount of damage we did there was? I quote, listen, man, it's crazy what went on in there. Listen man, we really mess them up. Fuck check it out. There's nothing at all left. It's nothing but desert. Now that's crazy. Next, Soldier, I remember that the level of destruction looked insane to me.
Soldier.
We entered Gaza with an insane amount of fire power. Soldier, it all looked like a sci fi movie, serious levels of destruction everywhere. Everything was really in ruins and NonStop fire all the time.
Soldier.
Before the entrance on foot to the Gaza strip, a crazy amount of artillery was fired at the entire area. Before a tank makes any movement, it fires every time. Those guys were trigger happy, totally crazy. Do you want me to continue? Yes, yes, Soldier. The explosions effects cause major amounts of damage, but that doesn't interest anyone.
Use it, use it.
Explosives can't be taken back. The platoon commander says, I don't want to leave explosives with me.
Soldier.
Our view was of the center of the strip. Let's say it was a real fireworks display. From a distance, it looked pretty cool. If you look through a night vision scope, you saw crazy wreckage. It was a real trip.
Soldier.
You're shooting it anything that moves, and also what isn't moving crazy amounts. It also becomes a bit like a computer game. Totally cool and real, Soldier, it was total.
Destruction in there.
The photos online are child's play compared to what we saw there.
In reality. I never saw anything like it, soldiering, you get enough idea.
Yeah, no, Crystal, you know, I don't like to play the mother card, because fathers also care about their children.
Yeah, but as a mother, this is what mowing the lawn meant in Gaza.
This is what those kids who burst the gates of Gaza experienced every few years from that Satanic state. That's what they experienced, That's what they underwent. Yeah, this wasn't because of October seventh. What we're seeing now. Yes, it's in the higher scale because the past Isvielle just wanted to mow the lawn. Now it wants to extirpate the fancy word for pullout by the roots. Now it wants to extirpate every blade of grass in Goza. Before we
just wanted to cut it down every few years. This is not because of October seven any more than shooting people with white flags and they're chested has to do with October seven. That's Israel's modus operende in Gaza. That's always been It's modus operende in Gaza.
Well, Norm, I really am grateful for your time as always and your patients and explaining things so people can have a sense of the history and a sense of the facts. Is there any of your books in particular you would recommend to folks to read at this time.
Yeah. Look, I don't like to make money off of the dead, so I'm always very careful about promoting myself.
But there is an educational value, of course.
So on the Gaza book, that's the fruit of I started researching Gaza about just focusing on gods about two thousand and eight, so it's the food of about fifteen years, just on Gossin. You know, I never thought I wrote it. If you look at the very last page of the book, the body of the book, I wrote, uh, I wrote the author, meaning myself. I actually I'd rather you read it because I prefer you have a good reading voice. Five the very last page, right before.
The appendix three fifty five, you said three sixty five sixty five Okay that I am finding.
Okay, you'll start from It's around eight lines down. The author holds.
The author holds out fate hope that it will find an audience among his contemporaries.
Still, this book will find an audience.
Yes, Still, the truth should be preserved. It is the least that's owed the victims. Perhaps one day, in the remote future, when the tenor of the times is more receptive, someone will stumble across this book collecting dust on a library shelf, blow off the cobwebs, and be stung by outrage at the lot of a people, if not forsaken by God, then betrayed by the cupidity and corruption, careerism and cynicism, cravenness and cowardice of mortal man. There will come a time Jackson, anticipated.
Are just let me clarified.
There was a woman named Helen Hunt Jackson, and she chronicled the destruction of the Native American people in the United States. And her book was called A Century of dishonor a wonderful Book. And so I'm referring back to her book when she describes what was done to the Native Americans in our country, and I say, there will become a time.
When to the student of American history it will seem well nigh incredible what was done to the Cherokee. It is not certain that one.
Day the Black records of is it not certain.
Will seem well nigh incredible what was done to the Cherokee Cherokee? Is it not certain that one day the black record of Gaza's martyrdom will in retrospect also seem well nigh incredible.
Yeah. I never thought people would read the book.
It was.
A chronicle for the future. I never saw it as selling more than a you know, at most a couple of thousand copies. That wasn't my goal. I felt that it was what Helen Hauns chuckson. Did you know there was a after World War Two there was a famous book by two I guess one, maybe both of them were Jewish. One was Ilia Ehrenberg and I.
Can't remember the other fellows. And it was called The.
Black Book of Nazism, just described the Russian describe what was done to the Russian people by the Nazis. It was a chronicle, a very fat book. Obviously nobody's going to not many people are going to go.
And that's how I saw this book. And it was just totally.
It was so strange because when October seventh happened, I had already moved on. I thought the whole situation was hopeless, and as you know, I started writing a book on cancel culture and other things. And I was very excited by that because I felt like, I know, it's a horrible thing to say, but I felt like my mind had been emancipated. I had been liberated because for forty years I couldn't move. I had this feeling of I'm the only one that's going to do this kind of research.
I'm the only one that's going to read through all these human rights organization reports. I'm the only one that's going to show every lie, you know, because most people don't have.
That kind of patience. I have the discipline.
I don't have a great mind, but I have a disciplined mind, which is to say, I can focus and go through everything with the fine teeth come and then all of a sudden October seventh, it's like, well that became relevant again.
I thought I was past it.
And so when I recommend the book to people, it's not because I expect to make money.
I mean, I'm at that point in life for making money. It doesn't make much of the difference. So but I do feel it has an educative value and it's a horror I mean, what was.
Uh, what was done has been done to the people of gods is simply beyond belief. But most people have, you know, they think everything began October seventh. Yeah.
Yeah, and so much of the history.
There's so many lies that are just pervasive in American culture about the reality of the history and the details of what's actually unfolded. And you might say, well, that doesn't matter, you know, the past of the past. It's just like focus on what's happening now in the future. But I mean, one thing that really comes clear when you study this conflict at all is just how much getting the facts straight about the past matters for some
kind of an eventual, hopeful resolution. Doctor Norman Finkelstein is always great to see you. Thank you so much again for spending time with us.
Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity. I mean that you know you're serious. Uh, there's been a pattern I have to say. I know people aren't going to like it.
It's probably politically incorrect, but the female commentators don't ask me why, whether it's Michaelea Peterson, uh, Candy's Owens, yourself, Brianna Joy. Great, they've just been much more uh. And I mean this in a very positive sense. They've just been much more humble. They recognize, you know, well, we have a lot of things to cover, and so we don't have your uh depth of knowledge, and will listen. We'll listen, We'll ask questions, and we'll listen. And that's
the common characteristic. You listen, you watch cand So owns wherever you think of her. I don't know anything about her because I don't watch it social media.
It's not my thing. Or MICHAELA.
Peterson, who I never heard of, uh So, and beyond the joy Gray and yourself. So you listen, you take in and then you see these guys. I know it's probably politically correct, you know this, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, this Bill Maher uh the.
You know, I accept the arrogance with.
People who are smart, Okay, accept this guy knows what he's talking about, even though he's an arrogant son of a bitch. But this mixture of arrogance and complete stupidity, complete ignorance, you.
Know, it is an incredible combo, isn't it.
I think it was blowhearts. I think it's you know anything. Bill Moore, lecturing on byzantium.
So it's been it's been especially ratherifying to have interlocky. There is who showed the humility, and obviously they have the knowledge. I mean, you were, as I said, you were very good with the Probert County I said, okay, I went to thought.
Of the responses. They were good.
But still listen, you know, still listen, and I don't demand that you agree with what I have to say, but a little humility. You have the clue what you're talking about. It's like me talking about particle physics. Okay, so so so nice to
You, nor take care and happy holidays you too,