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Excited to be joined this morning by Amber Frost. She is a writer, activist, former co host of Chapo traph House, and author of the brand new book Dirt Bag Essays and Put It Up on the Screen, available wherever books are sold.
Now. Welcome Amber. It's great to meet you.
Nice to meet you too. Thanks for having me on.
Yeah, of course.
So first let's start with, like, what made you decide to write the book? Now, one of the things that you talk about is you felt like this particular arc, either in national left politics or in your life had kind of come to an end, and so if you felt like it was an appropriate moment to write the book. So what is the phase that you feel like came to an end that enabled you to write this.
Book, well, honestly, I started writing it before it came to an end, which you know obviously required some retooling, and we knew that sort of going into it.
I knew that I.
Wanted to start sort of with where I came from and how I ended up, you know, on the left, quote unquote whatever that means, and I ended up in Occupy Wall Street. So I had already seen that end, and I knew through a lot of smaller moments that most of these things do kind of fizzle out. But you know, when I was trying to get a book deal, Bernie was very much still on the table and very promising.
And I think all of us on the podcast and most of the people I knew going into it, were like, you know, not Bertie's gonna win, But we're like, this is the best opportunity we've had in a really long time. So I went into it with like this baby kind of attitude. And then I was like, what's going to happen if what is most likely to happen will, which is that he doesn't win.
And then I was like, I'll deal with that later.
But figure that out if again, yeah, yeah.
Which touch which took a lot longer than I thought, because COVID sort of threw me for a loop and I sort of struggled with kind of trying to find a bow to put on the end of it. And then I guess at some point I just thought, well, you don't have like the happiest ending in the world, and you should just be honest about that. Yeah, it doesn't mean it's the end of the world, but sometimes you lose.
Yeah, that is life, especially life in left politics. I want people to understand this is not just like a you know, a retelling of what happened with Bernie, either in twenty sixteen or twenty twenty. It's I mean, you can tell me if you think that this description is right.
It's like part memoir, part you know, description of the journey of yourself and as an activist, but also tracking these major movements from Occupy to Bernie twenty sixteen to Bernie twenty twenty, and you know, a part of COVID that unfolded in recent years on the burning piece.
Though.
You know, what do you think that some of the other retellings of Bernie's loss in twenty twenty, what do you think that they sort of missed or what do you think that they perhaps got wrong.
Well, I think that there are a lot of very early post mortems which I wanted to avoid. I think people rushed and to say exactly what happened immediately, which I.
Mean, you don't.
I feel like my first impressions walking away were correct, but I did want to give myself some space. I think there were a lot of sort of well, Bernie didn't win because, you know whatever, his coalition was too woke or whatever. I think that come from a place of anger that I fully understand that there was kind of a cannibalistic, you know whatever left that was a.
Part of Bernie's coalition. But really I think it.
Was as simple as you know, he faced more opposition from the Democratic Party than he did from the Republicans. We didn't expect him to catch on as much as he did the first time.
But when we.
Really went into it for twenty sixteen, like in earnest, they you know, it was a kneecap job. And I think that's one of the most frustrating things is because you know, maybe even if they hadn't.
Have done that, he wouldn't have won. But now we'll never.
Know, right, Yes, but that's also part of the nature of being a like, you know, a lefty trying to compete in the Democratic Party. You have to just assume that that's going to be part of what you're facing and what you're up against. How do you feel like the unquote left broadly, however you wanted to find that in America has responded to that loss. I mean there's been a lot of you know, there's been a lot
of fracturing. There's been a lot of you know, ugliness on Twitter, There's been I feel like a good amount of nihilism.
What's been your reaction to sort of this like post burning moment.
I mean, it's difficult because I think most of the people I know have pretty strong heads on their shoulders. I do have a few friends that just straight up lost it afterwards.
They didn't know what to do with themselves.
They had all of their eggs in that one basket, and that makes it difficult. I you know, it's difficult to cope with loss, and I think if you don't sort of, you know, cut your teeth on smaller ones, it can be really devastating.
With something like Bernie.
I mean, as far as like the left there's not really a left in the country.
There are a lot of you know.
Leftists or socialists or whatever. But if you were to describe the left as sort of a powerful political movement, which I would say has something having like at the very least a party in a labor movement, it's not something we really have. What we have right now is a lot of people that are even further disfus diffused. Bertie really was kind of a north star, and without that, I think people are really scattered.
They're doing the best they can.
Obviously, I'm encouraged by a lot of the union work that's going on. I'm very happy that I personally don't have to pay that much attention to electoral politics living in California. You know, I've lived in blue states for the last many years.
But you know, I'm not. I don't have to carry water for a lot of things.
And then it's partially upsetting because it means like I have to wait for the odd, like very odd left insurgent candidate that has a shot. Yeah, it ain't great, but you know, you just don't know what's going to happen until it happens. I never really saw Bernie coming in the first place, and I still think he was an amazing opportunity and the closest we've come in my lifetime. But before that, I was just chugging away at kind of labor stuff. Yeah, you know, nothing is nothing is
going to happen until one day it happens. So you have to sort of just leave room for that chaos energy and tried laying the track. Right now, it's the very dull, boring political work of trying to sort of keep people together and focused on smaller projects.
Like you, I've been extraordinarily excited by the new energy and the labor movement, which is very different than anything we've seen in our lifetimes, where you're actually like, it's not concessionary contracts. You see these democratic reform movements within large labor unions. You see them, you know with the American people, you know firmly behind them. Is not even partisan people overwhelming on their side. You see the grassroots effort.
So I think if more of that had happened pre Bernie, you would have had more of the infrastructure actually to support a candidate with his political agendas. So that does
make me help hopeful for the future. I was wondering also, you know what you make of all of the grassroots organizing and activism in favor of a ceasefire and against Israel's assault on Gaza, and if that also, I mean, obviously it's like one of the most horrifying things I've ever seen unfold, But the fact that there's been so much organizing and energy around it also has been sort of hopeful and inspiring to see as well.
Oh sorry, I'm not going to give you a good one of this. I'm not very optimistic as far as what has already happened. It seems pretty it's it's it's already pretty devastating. I don't think even at this point that I mean, okay, so has happened for me? The first time during the Iraq War you realize there was a huge popular opposition to this thing, you know, right, and then you also realized that.
The nation as a as a as.
A political entity has zero accountability to the rest of the world, much less popular opinion. So I think, I mean, it heartens me and it gives me faith in humanity that this many people are disgusted and in many many of them deprogramming themselves from a lot of propaganda.
What bothers me is the fact that.
We don't have a nation that's accountable to broad popular opinion or moral disgusted.
I think the fact that the US.
Is supporting this and has been not just the occupation, but like, you know, just just put in the boot down this obviously and this brazen when without any world support or popular support, is really disturbing. But I do think just to go back to what you were saying about, you know, the labor could have laid the groundwork.
I actually don't. I think that Bernie in some ways invigorated the labor.
I'm not sure that they would be where they were without that. It's kind of one hand washes the other thing. And one of the things I do see being more powerful is at some point when a trade union movement is large enough, they do get to influence things like foreign policy. Unfortunately, we have to have sort of a you know, a hand and the government to to even get to that point already, So it's going to be a slow build. But I don't know's it's incredibly devastating
to watch. It's really horrifying, and I I think we've already foreclosed on a happy ending.
Yeah, Oh yeah, that's the ship has sailed.
That's pretty brutal.
What do you make of Bernie and his reaction. I just saw a pac tweeting out, you know, their amplifying his opposition to a ceespar. I know you describe yourself as a Bernie loyalist.
Yeah, I mean at this point too.
Okay, So there's it's very interesting again to go back to Labor.
A friend of.
Mine in a very large union, we'll say, has been a part of hostile internal debate about whether or not they should make a statement interesting on Israel.
Uh, And I'm I'm sympathetic to both sides.
Uh.
One is like, well, we should talk about what is right and you know the horrible things that's going on there.
Two.
Uh, They're like, look, we aren't in the best position in the world right now. This is going to be very distracting from building the union. And you know, a weak unions grow unions. Strong unions influence things outside of the Union. As far as Bernie goes, he's always been to the left of nearly everyone on foreign policy. At the same time, he's a man of a certain age.
I I don't I don't put anyone in in Congress or the Senate, or even local politics to the standards I hold for a let's say, a millennial podcaster in terms of foreign policy, it's just it's just an old holdover. And at this point I'm like, it's it's it's not it's and I don't mean Zionism in particular. I mean like this idea of you know, Israel as as the good guy.
That's kind of a.
It's a very it's like a very cold war mindset, like there's the good countries that are on our side, there's the bad countries that against us.
It's a bag over.
I I you know, for my part, it's the holidays. I try and stay on message and say, look, I'm against the occupation and you know, there are no excuses, but there are reasons. And if you turn up the heat high enough, water's gonna boil.
Amber.
You have a chapter in your book that you talk about like sort of your disgust with the liberal theatrics around Trump and how you really rejected you know, the sort of like performative, who can act the most afraid, who can act the most outraged, et cetera. But what are you feeling about the fact that it is very possible, if not very likely, that we end up with another four years of Trump.
I'm not sure.
First of all, I can't really draw a bead on what the possibility for that is.
I think it's really interesting.
I mean, first of all, we didn't see it coming in the first place, and that was a real wake up call for me because I was like, oh, the death of local newspapers and the lack of you know, news coverage and in quote unquote flyover Country has really missed some major sentiments going on with most of the people, Like wow, that we didn't see that coming at all. And I think what that made me realize is that we don't really have a way to check the temperature anymore,
you know that. It's it's it's not just having like newsdesks locally, but it's about having like local newspapers. It's about having labory press. So I would say the weirdest part of it is that I'm.
Not sure what the actual possibility is.
I do think, you know, Biden's infrastructure bill, God knows, I hate to give him or you know, whatever Svengali's running him any credit, but the infrastructure bill is very encouraging it's something that should have happened a million years ago, and Bertie would have done a better blah blah blah blah blah.
I would be.
Interested to see if that has any effect on the ground with voters. I think what a lot of people voted for in Trump was like the return of manufacturing on shoring American jobs.
I mean, jobs are a big deal. People like them. They remember when they had them and they missed them. Good jobs.
And I think with the investment in infrastructure it's actually going to it is creating more of those jobs.
We're now seeing a labor shortage and in the.
Hard hats, which are a lot of time excellent jobs that you can get without.
You don't have to.
Pay to get into them. It's not like, you know, you have to have a four year degree. It's skilled labor, and you're in a union. You can get a pension and all your benefits. And I think if that shows any yield in time for a broader public, I don't see like the resentment, the resentment for the Democratic Party that really fueled a lot.
Of Trump voting coming to fruition and she does get to like I mean, I have no idea.
Man The weird thing is that, you know, again we all were sort of like freaked out and happened.
We're like, oh, holy shit, it's this crazy, and then you.
Oh, this is just kind of a consistently, like a consistent trajectory of things getting slightly worse.
Like this is not a.
Rapid decline compared to Obama. It's not great, and it's not an improvement. But the strangest thing was that there wasn't a huge disaster. It was just a little shittier every day, just like it had been for the past however many years.
So that's sort of what you anticipate if we get a second Trump term.
I mean I could see it for sure.
It is you know, he doesn't want to get in strange wars. He always wants to see, like who wins in the end. He tends to I think most of spend most of his He spent most of his last administration doing like, I don't know, castle intrigue, court politics.
He was more obsessed with it was way more obsessed with, you know, his.
Own cabinet and hiring and firing people and doing the apprentice.
He wasn't that active of a president.
Yeah, that's an interesting perspective because he was obviously incredibly visible, like it felt like he was an active president, but then not actually that much. I mean, his biggest accomplishment was a bunch of tax cuts for rich people, which anyway Republican president would basically do. I mean, I guess the thing that does make him different is all of the insanity around the election and January sixth, and like, yeah it was Keithstone, cops, but he legitimately wanted to steal the election.
Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean I would say though, but like he didn't and I don't know, but that The interesting thing that I saw later after this, during that January sixth stuff, is they talked to White House Security and they said a lot of people that were there were a lot of people that were there January sixth calling in saying like, hey, I left my purse there. I was there at January sixth. Could is there a way I could pick it up?
Yeah?
And like the head of White House Security was like, they literally don't know that what they did was He's like, you know, these people are not fully in orbit, Like it's like that they believe that the president told them to do something, and so that it was allowed that they did it. It's like it's like the kind of American mindset when you get like pulled over and you see those people who are like, actually, I'm a sovereign citizen and it's like, oh my god, we told you things work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think after that one, that's kind of thing is less likely to happen because it wasn't effective. And two, I think Trump doesn't like the amount of trouble he's getting into for yeah, let's say, yeah, uh waving the see.
I actually sort of feel the opposite.
I feel like once something happens once, it's actually more likely to happen again in religure. Wait, yeah, definitely, I've sort of like riped the band aid off of oh well, that thing is now on the table, that thing is now possible.
But like an Overton window thing, yeah exactly.
It did look like they were having fun, but a lot of them did go to jail. I could see it also happening in something like not particularly related to Trump. I don't know if the energy would be behind in particular. I don't know if he seems to have he doesn't quite have like the shine for the youth that he did during the time, you know, the the downwardly mobile
young men who appear to have moved on. But I mean I could see it around something else, because that energy is still there, that that restless resentment, no doubt, that feeling of unfairness, and that mental illness, they're all still there.
So no doubt, no doubt.
Well, Amber, I've been really enjoying the book. I think you're a fantastic writer. I think your you know, your personality, your voice really comes through, and so I encourage people to check out the book. It's excellent. Congratulations and thank you so much for sharing some of your insights today.
Thank you so much for having me on no more.
University campuses have once again become a lightning rod for free speech. Last week, three university presidents, Harvard's Claudine Gay, Penn's Liz McGill, and MIT Sally Kornblooth appeared before Congress to testify about rising anti semitism on their campuses.
I am asking specifically calling for the genocide of Jews. Does that constitute bullying?
Harassment?
If it is directed and severer pervasive, it is harassment.
So the answer is yes.
It is a context dependent decision.
Congresswoman, calling for the genocide of Jews does not constitute bullying and harassment.
I have not heard calling for the genocide for Jews on our campus.
But you've heard chance for intifada.
I've heard chance, which can be antisemitic depending on the context.
Anti Semitic rhetoric. When it crosses into conduct that amounts to bullying, harassment, madation, that is actionable conduct, and we do take action.
So the answer is yes, that calling for the genocide of Jews violates Harvard Code of Conduct.
Correct.
Again, it depends on the context.
All three presidents have since face calls for resignation. Many high profile donors have threatened to pull millions in funding from these universities. One of these presidents, Liz McGill of U Penn, has already since resigned over the last few days. Of these developments have entered the cultural zeitgeist, so much so to the point that even the likes of Dave Portnoy have gotten involved tweeting one down, two to go.
Some university faculty have pushed back on such efforts to censor free speech on campus, one of them being Professor Walter Johnson of Harvard.
In these past few weeks, I've become wary of my own words, of speaking, my mind, of being overheard in a way that I have not been afraid those today's on the weeks, then the months after nine to eleven, when I was living in New York and people who I had fought were my friends literally lost their minds, their composure, their sense of proportion, and their basic human decency. And I see that happening again with the ferocity that
has astonished me. I am aware of the irony of standing before those of you who have been singled out and targeted, doxed, harassed, and blacklisted to warn you that the boundaries of what you can safely say are closing.
In so joining us today is Walter Johnson, Professor of History and African American Studies at Harvard University. Thank you for being with us today, Professor, it's my pleasure. First question, what compelled you to make such a public statement regarding free speech on campus.
I think, in the first instance, it was the palpable climate of fearfulness among many of my colleagues and many of my students. I guess I'd have to say I felt called to speak up. Many were many of the students were. I felt it was important for somebody on the faculty to speak up and stand with the students.
I was also, I think, at that moment, aware of things that later came to light about actual censorship happening at Harvard Law School, which was where that event took place, in the case of one student who had been involved in a protest and had the university president had issued a statement condemning the phrase from the river to the sea.
So I think in some sense that was an early response to a climate of intimidation and fear that I feel like has only become, has only intensified in the meantime.
You mentioned the phrase from the river to the sea. Now, phrase like that that could mean different things to different groups of people. Some like Congresswoman Rashida to Leib say it's a quote aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful co existence. Other groups like the ADL deem it to be a call for ethnic cleansing against Israeli Jews. For such phrases like this, how can we consistently apply the First Amendment right to free speech?
What you said is exactly right. I mean, you said that it's been read to imply different things. I don't think that within that broad spectrum there's a there's a lot of room for contestation and debate. So what the letter, what the you know, one of the letters, the many letters that I've been involved in over the past couple of weeks, that was, well, the university needs to slow down. The university needs to slow down, not to condemn statements,
but to encourage investigation and debate. That's what a university should do. And I think again that was you know, I don't want to get too braggy about it, but that was pressure right because within a week it comes out that this, you know, comes into general knowledge. There were specialists who knew this, but this very statement appears, is very phrase. It appears in the Lacude founding platform. So clearly it's history and multiple meanings need to be discussed. It can't simply be condemned.
Yeah, I want to get your perspective more on what's going on at the universities. The fallout of Harvard's clouding Gay pens Liz McGill and MIT Sally Cornbluoth collectively. In the mainstream media, their testimony has been seen as many as a disaster. All three presidents have since faced calls for their resignation, major donors threatening to withhold millions of dollars in donations pens. Liz McGill has already since resigned.
So what do you think does this set the right precedent for the future of university discourse?
So I think that that you know to me that hearing looked McCarthy. I I do not think that a congressional investigation of words said on a college campus, in which college presidents are asked whether or not they believe in the principal values of another country, is an appropriate mechanism of appropriate usage of state power. I think it's a dangerous usage of state power. Now I will say this,
and I'll say this straight up. I think that there has been speech made on the Harvard campus that approached the advocacy of genocide. Because there was an affiliate of the university who stood in Harvard Yard and implied that students at Harvard supported terrorism and said the words those who justify terrorism are lower than animals. I believe that was an episode of genocidal speech I made on the
campus of Harvard University. And as far as I know, there's been no coverage outside of a brief mention in the Harvard crimson of that, there's certainly not been a congressional investigation of that, and as far as I know, that individual has not been subjected to university discipline. So again, I think that you know.
Part of what's happening is we're living in a shadow world where there is an inordinate amount of attention paid to certain types of speech, very little attention of the same sort of attention being applied to other types of speech at the very same.
Moment that there is an actual material, real life mass murder removal, not bad genocide, not to mention the history of the last seventy five years.
Yeah, I want to ask I want to It's a slight pive, but I want to ask you about the consistency of free speech on campus because some have likened Harvard other elite university's newfound commitment to free speech as somewhat inconsistent. They're insinuating this kind of anti semitism is a factor in this. People have brought up some past examples of universities having no problems silencing those who were critical of say, BLM, d I, LGBGQ ideology. So is there Is it fair to say that there is a
level of hypocrisies that that underlies these rationalizations? Could there be something more sinister, like like I just alluded to. Is this criticism fair?
I mean, I mean, I think that's an important question. I think it's an important question to answer forthrightly. I believe in the first instance, that the joining of the attack on DEI on diversity, equity and inclusion to the attack on anti Zionist speech or even speech that is
critical of Israel is bailful and dangerous. Okay, But I am myself someone who thinks that the regulation of speech and civility on college campuses has come at this point to serve the universities as an alibi, universities like my university, as an alibi for the sorts of inequality that they
represent and perpetuate. And so I think in a way that the weaponization of the terms of diversity, equity, and inclusion is related to the way that those terms themselves have become unmoored from a larger understanding of justice.
Yeah, last question for you is how do we Because it seems to be free speech is kind of one of those things. To your point, people love free speech if they agree with that speech, and they will silent speech that they don't agree with. So, moving forward, how do we consistently apply free speech?
Yeah, I mean again, I'm not sure there's a consistent application, because I think it's always going to be a field of political context. And so then the focus for me is on, well, how do we imagine ourselves speaking in a way that is in insistently honest and also generous, And so for me, that does not involve the sort of activity that I think has been you know, for quite a while now, we've been living in a world where the words free speech on campuses are associated with
the rights and they are generally performed through acts of provocation. Right, Well, I think that this campus is not ideologically diverse, and so I'm going to bring in an extreme speaker who's bound to offend. Well, what if we imagine our commitment to free speech, like to the freedom part. What if we imagine it is not something that's defined by our ability that were allowed to do harm with our words. What if we imagine it as trying to to to
really speak honestly, to really pursue justice. That's what I've been you know, thinking and that's that's not to say that that that doesn't you know, plenty of that is going to involve saying things that make other people unhappy or uncomfortable. Say that the state of Israel is in apartheid state, which I think it is right. But I don't say that because I want to do harm. I'm not trying to prove some kind of point by that. I'm not trying to prove I'm allowed to say that.
I say that because I think it's true. And what if we just hold ourselves to that standard. I think that that would be you know that that's the world that I want to live in, and that's the world that I think is is under threat from any any variety of directions. And you know, to come back to your first question, I guess that's why I felt compelled to just speak out about any of this in the first place.
Well, thank you, professor. This has been incredibly insightful. Thank you for your time today. This continues on, I'm sure it will. We hope to have you back in the future. Appreciate your time.