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Welcome back to Breaking Points. Crystal and I are so excited to be joined right now by my Counterpoints co host, Ryan Grim, who happens to be the author of a brand new book. It's out on December fifth. You can start getting it in bookstores the Monday after Thanksgiving. It's called The Squad, AOC and the Hope of a Political Revolution. It's fantastic. There's so many nuggets in our joant Yes, yes, thanks for joining us here.
Ryanks on hand love to talk about the book.
Well.
It ended up being extra timely because obviously the arc of the Squad is just important in American politics and for you know, people left of center in general.
But there's also a.
Lot in the book about the way that the you know that a PAC and their spin off, the Democratic Majority for Israel, has aggressively tried to shape the you know, democratic caucus, who gets in, who gets out, what their views are.
So it ends up being extra timely because of that piece.
Yeah, I have a line in there that finishes the first chapter that kind of introduces AOC where that arc ends. If you remember a couple of weeks after she wins her primary, you know, she's soaring, her stars rising, she's crushing every interview, she's becoming a global celebrity. And then she does an interview where she gets asked about Israel Palestine, and it's just like, I mean, it's.
Just clear she doesn't really she knows it's a tough topic, she knows she doesn't know enough about the topic, and she just it's the inexperience is very clear in that moment.
And her instincts are that she supports Palestinian rights, in Palestinian dignity, and she says the word Palestine in the interview and an occupation, right, and I think occupation, yeah, And the interview, which is somebody who is more schooled on the subject will be like, yeah, that's what I call the region and there is an occupation like that's
that's what's happening. But the interviewer is like, did you say Palestine, Margaret Hoover, Yeah, And you can see AOC's face be like, oh God, did I did I hit a third rail?
I'm not like it.
It's the feeling where because you know there are third rails, you know there are land mines everywhere, right, and you just you've put your foot down and you heard a click and you're like, is that about to blow up or not? Because I don't because because I don't know and she and she finishes by saying, look, I'm not an expert on geopolitics.
This isn't something that we talked about a lot at.
My bronx, you know, dinner table growing up and just and it's very unusual for somebody to like admit on TV that you don't know much about something like that.
It's very rare.
Uh.
And then she as I reported the book, should they pull her off interviews for a while?
Ago, Okay, let's like relax for a little bit.
And then the line that finishes that chapter she knew it was going to be a big issue, but she never could have guessed how much she underestimated like it became and nobody could have seen. I don't think it coming how a movement that was built around medicare for all, hirement, own wage, you know, basically economic populism and a Green New Deal would end up being just consumed by.
This question of Israel Palestine.
And that's because the fight was kind of brought to them immediately after they got to Congress. The pro Israel groups just stand up, these super packs just that start spending millions of dollars against them alphabet And the.
Cool thing about the book is that you go behind the scenes of some of these huge moments, like, for example, the Margaret Hoover interview, you're like right there with AOC talking about how her team is handling it. You have information from behind the scenes that makes all this really fascinating. I want to ask how the squad sees itself now in twenty twenty three. First of all, how do they
kind of define themselves? You have Justice Democrats, then you have people that are sort of broadly recognized as members of the squad. How self aware are they in Congress as they're working together or not working together. It's heavily female obviously you have Jamal Bowman on the book cover, but it does seem almost like a sisterhood.
Yeah, they and I think as the book shows, they sort of struggled with that question of what is the squad or kind of is the squad? Like several of them at different points would say there is no such thing as the squad. So the first role of the squadquy, it doesn't exist that there is a squad. And in many ways they were right, like it was a media creation built on there, but they played played along with it. It came from an Instagram kind of post that AOC
put up. It was just a picture of the four of them and she just wrote squad and that was That was during the kind of rise of the kind of uh you know, femboss like feminism, like a girl power.
Uh.
They did a you know, there was a cover with them in Nancy Pelosi, which obviously they were not a squad at all, and she's.
Like, we should get that framed for the studio.
If you had that iconic.
That was that And that was a media effort to like kind of strip ideology away from what was fundamentally an ideological movement. Omar says at one point there is no squad, you know, no such thing. But of course there also is a thing, because if you are getting attacked as a group, it kind of forms you into a group, and so you're kind of forged by fire in that sense. And when Pelosi and whether it's Pelosi in twenty nineteen Donald Trump in twenty nineteen saying send
them back. One kind of funny little detail I realized when going back through the history was when there when at Netroots Nation, which is you know, the liberal Bloggis sphere kind of conference. Oh, I've been there, you go, that's that's that's where she did leave and Elanomar said some things that got Trump mad and got him to start saying send them back. Pelosi would love to buy them ticket to send them back. Deb Holand was on
stage with them. She was the It wasn't the squad, it was it was those three plus deb Holan literally native American, like the last part, like forget the fact that arrest are American citizens and you're not sending them anywhere. She's literally a Native American saying center, center back. But I don't think Trump cared about that. But so I think that that effort to kind of attack them kind
of pushed them into being a group. But at the same time, as Iona Presley told, uh, told the squad you vote alone, and so you know, you vote alone and you vote for your district. And they would often
talk about how they were voting for their district. And in some ways I think they resented this like insistence that they were supposed to lead a vanguard at the left, like and there was a marriage of convenience in some ways between Justice Democrats and the Squad members, like that Justice Democrats was useful to some of these Squad members to separate themselves, particularly in Iona Presley's case, you know, from like why why do you need to throw out
Michael Capauana And then well, I'm Justice Democrat.
I'm like AOC.
I'm like so that's you know, that becomes the rationale for it. But then you're like, uh, you don't. They didn't really have the sense of like, well, I'm going to like.
Lead a movement here.
Yeah, and they never teamed up with Bernie in a way that became kind of mechanical.
It's interesting because right now, in this present moment, with Israel's Warren Gaza, they have actually acted more like a squad.
You know, they've been some of the most outspoken critics of the Biden approach of the indiscriminate bombing in Gaza, calling for a ceasefire, leading these letters and so talk a little bit about how actually the amount of money and the amount of attacks that they received in their primary and as being members of Congress coming from the pro Israel lobby actually kind of hardened them into these positions and unintentionally made them leaders on it.
It could because if AOC never gets let's say, AOC never gets pressed further on the question of you know, Israel, Palestine, Gaza, her focus is going to continue to be climate change, you know, raising the minimum wage, and broadly trying to pull the Democratic Party left and kind of advance the agenda that Bernie Sanders ran on first time in twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen. But if you force the question in a similar way to the way that kind of Karl Rove did in two thousand and four by putting marriage equality on the ballot on all of these states around the country, that forced Democrats to pick a side, because they would have been happy to say that civil union marriage between a man and a woman leave me alone.
I don't want to this is icky. I don't want to think about this.
But when you force the Democratic Party ta take a stance on a fundamentally civil rights issue, eventually they're going to have to They're going to be forced by their base to.
Get on the right side of it.
And I think particularly with Israel Palace and the more people as you study the history, as you study what's going on, as you visit the area. Jamal Bowman went, you know, with Jay Street to see it, and he was bizarrely like protested by you know, some some people associate with DSA. How dare you like go with j
Street to Israel? But seeing it firsthand, seeing the occupation up close, you come back changed, like you can you know, once you move past the propaganda around it and you see it firsthand and you really understand what's going on, you can only wind up on one one side if you're a progressive Democrat.
So I think that.
That is what is effectively happened. Also, as Summerlee told me, she's like, I was like, did you consider you know, moderating your your views on this the way that a lot of other candidates did, and she was like, well, no, but only because that wouldn't have worked, right.
They were coming for me either way.
She did say that, like it's in her head, Like she admitted, like that the millions of dollars have spent. It does get in your head and and you like think two or three times before you say something.
But she's like, but she's like it.
In the end, it doesn't matter, because they're coming for me, and not just because of two tweets I had about Gaza in twenty twenty months, because I'm out because of my broader kind of left wing, multi racial working class agenda that is in opposition to the donors, to a pack and to DMFI, like they have other interests as well besides just Israel Palace time. Yeah, they want to keep their tax loopholes and keep their taxes low and all that's fight back against unions and that sort of stuff.
Yes, of course.
So my last question is something you get towards in the end of the book about the kind of attempt to make an apples to apples between the Squad and the Freedom Caucus, which isn't you know, a dumb comparison. There's some interesting points of comparison there. And something I thought that was interesting in your reporting was that there is some awareness actually of how the Freedom Caucus has flexed their muscles over the last ten years. Among members
of the Squad. There's a hilarious conversation about Lauren Bobert between with Aocisi has some really funny thoughts on Laura Bilbert and that's an interesting Yeah, who among us. But that's an interesting sort of question for the squad is how they do they force the vote?
Do they?
I mean, how has their thinking evolved on using their numbers to force some of these conversations?
I think it, You know, they have definitely heard the criticism and it's something I think that they're that they're sorting through. I think when it comes to some some issues like I go through force the vote a little bit in there, and.
The page guys love to talk about forcing them.
About thoughts on We're just going to do force to vote every day for the entire show for the rest of the rest of our lives.
On that, they're like, no, that wasn't it.
But they do get the idea, like they are into the idea that that they want to build their leverage, and you know, toward the end of it, AOC is saying, you know, now that we're approaching ten to twelve, like that's that's a place where there's power that can be leveraged and.
In a way that won't be annihilated.
And there was there was there was a sense of weakness that I think that contributed to something as well as like a sense of being new and not really having a sense of how this.
Is all going to end.
At the same time, though, will there still be ten or twelve at the end of this next election cycle or will they'll be two?
Right?
Like, you know, it is quite possible that a lot of them could get wiped out by APAC and dmf I.
Money, which just announce the're going to spende hundred million dollars against them.
Sort of.
The sourcing on that was a little yeah, it's like I think it was sourced to people who are watching or something.
However, this is a threat.
Yeah, the one hundred million dollars is plausible because if they're spending five million and twenty races, that gets you there right right away. And it's not it's not implausible. But a pack hasn't quite come out and said they're going to do that.
They haven't.
They haven't confirmed or denied. They're going to spend an enormous amount of money. That is whether like last time they spent like forty collectively between the PROS groups, So it wouldn't be insane to see one hundred.
Gotcha, Well, the book is fantastic. I'm almost through it. I'm excited to do a talk with you at where are we doing it Politics and Pros on November twenty sixth.
It's going to be.
Great twenty seventh Monday.
That I don't know the name of where we're doing it or the date we're doing it.
It's fine.
Your calendar then you go.
That's all there is.
I'll be there.
I'll be writing rock. The book is fantastic. Congratulations on it, Ryan as great. You all right, guys.
Very excited to be joined this morning by James Johnson of Jail Partners. They of course see the wonderful focus groups for us, and James just took another trip back to Georgia where he spoke to quote unquote double disapprovers who are not impressed with Trump or Biden, of which I think many of us.
Relate to, to.
See how they are feeling about this election as a great report in the Washington Exammer headline is in Georgia swing country, Trump baggage and all has an edge over Biden.
Great to have you, James, thank you, thanks for having me.
Yeah, of course, So talk to us a little bit about how you selected these people and what the overall vibe was when.
You talked about yep, So this wasn't just me roaming around Georgia coffee shops. So we we actually texted by SMS thousand people in two counties of Baldwin and Washington counties. These are places that voted for Biden in twenty twenty in Georgia, but Brian Kemp the Republican in twenty twenty two.
Interesting the key to this.
So we texted people and then we got them to fill out the survey and if they matched our aut what we were looking for, which are people who disapproved of both Trump and Biden and are now undecided or a bit on the fence about how they might vote next time, then we selected them.
So we spoke about people suburban.
Yeah, it's interesting.
So it's abount ninety minutes drive southeast out of Atlanta and Baldwin County has Millageville in the middle. It actually used to be the old capital of the Confederacy in Georgia, the Confederate Georgia for a while. It's a university town, but it feels like a suburb despite being in the middle of rural Georgia. And so that's an interesting dynamic. And then down the road in Washington County a lot
more rural, not many towns or connovations at all. Is interesting because there's nothing that makes these counties particularly more volatile in terms of voter's mines. These people aren't just aren't more swinging in terms of their votes. It's because they're quite divided. So they're about fifty to fifty black and white in terms of ethnic mix, and there's also a mix on education and other political views as well.
It sounds actually almost like what you're finding confirms with The New York Times, Siena Paul found recently, especially among perhaps black voters, that people who are undecided Biden might be losing support among them. Tell us a little bit about what some of those fault lines are with the double disapprovers that may have them swinging towards Trump. When in twenty twenty they swung towards Biden.
Yeah, absolutely, so I think that's the big dynamic happening in Georgia. Non white voters are going off of Biden. I spoke to a man called Gabriel in mixed racer man who lives in Tinill And Georgia. It's this little railway town literally at the end of the line. It's right on Sherman's March the sea, you know, so tearing up, you know, rightwayway lines, et cetera. He's still sort of very sort of alive to lots of racial tensions today.
And Gabriel that he spoke to.
Me and he sets me down in a coffee shop and he said, African Americans are waking up. They're moving away from Biden and the Democrats, and they're becoming more open to Trump. And his main reason was that they were sort of recoiling to some of the more left wing parts of the Democrat agenda. He spoke about transgender issues, he spoke about the sort of what he saw as
the political persecution of Trump. He also spoke about seeing that Democrats were swapping African American voters for white women, was how he described it. So he got this feeling that there was a gap between them, and that was echoed a lot across my journey through these through these swing counties, and then the people who were in the state who were more pro Democrat and African American, there
wasn't that enthusiasm there. There's almost this sort of you know, irony really, and that people feel more relaxed by politics over the last few years. There's less drama compared to the Trump years. One woman I spoke to even said she went on too well boutrin because because of the Trump presidency, she was so stressed out every day.
They say that they're not like that anymore.
And actually that's had a sort of ironic effect because it meant that it's meant that they're actually more disengaged now. And people spoke to me about how black people in Georgia didn't come out for Stacy Abrams even in twenty twenty two, and they doubt whether they'll come out for Biden again. So I think that's a huge dynamic happening here with a non white vote.
Tell me about the gentleman Nicholas, who voted for Biden in twenty twenty and says that if Trump is the nominee. He's going to go Biden again, but if Republicans pick DeSantis or potentially someone else, then he's going to vote Republican.
Yeah.
So his big problem with Trump was January sixth and the Capital, you know, the sort of events around the Capitol on that day that had his in his view, made Trump sort of disqualified for the presidency.
But he's still a Republican.
He still sort of you know, wants Republican and conservative ideas in government. So he really likes DeSantis, for example. And this was a thing that we heard again and again and again, actually people sort of saying, you know that they really didn't want one of Biden or Trump, and a strong sense that if there was another alternative to them, then Biden or Trump would lose very badly. And I think we saw that in the NBC poll yesterday.
A Democrat, generic Democrat beats Trump, a generic Republican beats Biden. So Nicholas was one of those examples of quite a clued up He was a college graduate, he was in Millageville, quite a clued up person on politics. But for him, Trump was not a viable option. He wasn't keen on Biden, he's going to vote for Biden, but he wasn't keen on him. He spoke about how Biden could have reached across the aisle to voters after twenty twenty, and that's
what he expected. He spoke about Biden saying he was going to be a president for all America rather than just Democrats, and he felt that Biden hadn't done that, but he was going to hold his nose and vote for him anyway. This is looking like a very much hold hold your nose election. Everybody sort of had one man, Frank, who was an independent. He sort of sat almost with his head in his hands. He couldn't work out who to vote for. So it's a lot of It's not a happy election for sure.
Did any and P's double disapprovers who are not excited about this election, did any of them mention maybe I'll vote third party or I'm giving a third party candidate a look.
Yes, Frank, the man I just mentioned he was sort of in a dictionary definition of an independent.
He has sort of big sage beard.
He was sat back at his in his sop when he was sort of know voted for Ross Perrot in the nineties. He voted for a write in since he voted for Trump in twenty twenty, but he didn't want to repeat it again because of concerns about Trump's tent temperament. He spoke about a writing candidate or third party. I said to him, Oh, have you heard about RFKJ union. He said, oh, yeah, maybe him, but he didn't come
up with him, unprompted. A few other people did mention RFK Junior or a few other people spoke about looking elsewhere, however, And I think this is because Georgia is such a swing state.
Now.
I mean it went to Biden for it's first time I went Democrats, sin it's nineteen ninety two under Bill Clinton in the last election. People are really aware that it's a tight margin. And lots of people said to me, even when they were sort of talking through about oh maybe I could be tempted to buy a third party, they corrected themselves and said it would be a wasted vote, waste, And that was a really really strong motivator for these guys.
Interesting.
One thing that has stood out for me as you started doing focus groups on Breaking points side was asking where people what their news diets look like and where they're getting their information, and that strikes me as perhaps one of the most interesting distinctions between twenty sixteen, twenty twenty, and potentially twenty twenty four. When you have the double disapprovers saying things, for instance, like I think it was the man Gabriel you mentioned who felt as though Democrats
were swapping white women for black voters. That is not something you hear in the establishment media, the legacy media at all. And I'm really curious what your sense is as you're talking to double disapprovers, and maybe as you're talking to people in general, how media diets have changed, just maybe even since the pandemic, just since twenty twenty.
I think that's one thing maybe people like, especially Democrats, the Democrat establishment might not fully be banking on, is that there's information, there are narratives, there are arguments that are getting the voters in a more powerful way than perhaps before.
Yeah.
I mean someone spoke to me there and said, can't trust anything, you know. They said that they go online and they'd google something even and try and find out a story and they think, oh, this looks like a good news story, and they click on it and it would just be either an agenda or clickbait and people feel like there's this real, real loss of trust that people feel now to the point where they almost don't flock and trust anything. It's turning some people off. So
I think that is a huge factor. You know, the usual sources of media that were perhaps banked on, you know, the world of you know, candidates writing op heads or candidates getting on an important cable news station. Those days really really seemed over for these double disapprovers and for
voters as a whole. It's this sort of free orbit almost of media now that people can sort of select, select and go for and you know, they're looking for those trustworthy, straight down the line sources, but they can't always feel they can find them. So I think that's an absolute huge factor. It means that viral clips become more important. It means that sort of how people sort of feel about the candidates become more important directly. I
think it's also an opportunity for politicians. They're able to speak more directly to the elect than they ever have been. That obviously brings dangers if you're you know, if you're Biden and you potentially fall over. It also brings opportunities if you're Trump, and you can get your message directly to them.
James, What the Democrats are really banking on is two things. Number One, you brought up Trump January sixth, threat to democracy, like basically, this guy and his party are just too extremists, too unhinged. The other one which ties into that argument is abortion. And we have seen even though frankly I was skeptical that this would be sufficient.
We've seen now in midterms.
We saw in the twenty twenty three, you know, the off term elections that we just had, that has been very compelling for voters, and the pro choice position has one in every single ballot initiative that it's been put on. It seems to be very motivating for a democratic base, and a lot of independence too, who may otherwise have been kind of thrown up their hands, stayed home, not been.
Too excited about this election.
Did abortion come up with these voters at all? Are you seeing that in your conversations that this is a you know, a really super like hot issue that is motivating people to come out and express their choices THEO So.
I didn't see too much of it amongst in Georgia, amongst these double disapprovers and I think one of the reasons for that is not necessarily because their views on it differ, but because the presidential race is a different
range of issues. And I think that's the caveat I make about reading too much endo twenty twenty two or the twenty twenty three elections is that they happened off cycle, and the choice of who's in the White House wasn't on the ballot, and I think that changes the issues agenda. That's not to say it weren't important, it won't be important. So for example, you know, Arizona might have abortion on
the ballot next year. That's probably going to have a bit of an impact in getting Democrat voters out, and so I think it does have a potential turnout impact. But I think what I'm hearing and what I'm seeing both in polling and in focus groups, is that when it comes to the choice between Biden and Trump or whoever it might be, it's the positives and negatives of
those individuals that are weighing more heavily than abortion. So I'm not sitting here and saying it's not important, but I do think it's becomes a slightly lower tier issue when we get into a presidential election.
One thing I'm hearing from all of this is that the people of are not clamoring for Dean Phillips. They're not. They're not on the Phillips train, right They were they literally asking you what about Joe Mansion. Please tell me Joe Mansen is going to get into the race.
I mean there was there was no Joe Mansion train. There was no Dean Phillips train. There was well, I mean not. There weren't many trains, to be honest. So you don't want to get on the Trump or the Biden train either. It's interesting even despite the more disengaged Democrats.
I went.
I had a fascinating interview with a man called Joseph. He's a Nighthawks veteran and he runs a helps run the Veterans hospital now in Mergerville. And he had this big army Army shirt on and he sort of, you've got you've got to remember these things are very exciting for me as a brit We.
Don't have people wearing big army shirts in the UK.
And he sort of sat back and he had a picture actually of Clinton and the barber on his shirt on his on his wall, and he said, He pointed at them, and he said, Biden's not like them. He's not a firecracker. I'm not going to put a bumper sticker on for Biden. Despite all that, he still said that shouldn't be a primary chalvage to Biden because he felt that would divide Democrats even more.
That is interesting, fear of Trump.
It really really does dictate a lot of our politics right now.
James, Thank you so much.
Always so insightful to just hear directly from voters the way they are viewing this election that not a lot of people are super excited about.
So great to see you. Thank you so much.
All right.
I'm Maximilian Alvarez. I'm the editor in chief of the Real News Network and host of the podcast Working People. And this is the art of class war on breaking points. With each passing day, more Israeli bombs are falling on Gaza, more bodies are being blown apart and buried under the rubble. Over a million Palestinians have been displaced from their homes.
The world has borne witness to a genocidal military campaign to clear out Gaza once and for all, And every day, every hour, it feels like the chance to stop one of humanity's most inhumane crimes is slipping through our fingers, and the powers that be have shown no interest whatsoever in listening to the thundering calls for a ceasefire that are coming from governments and mass demonstrations around the world, particularly the Biden administration here in the United States, the
increasingly fascistic Netan Yahoo government in Israel, and the arms manufacturers and war profiteers who are raking in billions from manufacturing mass death. This is prompting activists and people of conscience around the world to take direct action themselves to try to disrupt the war machine, and that includes working people and trade unions. In Australia, for instance, direct actions
and protests have exploded across the country. As Mustafa Rishwani recently reported for The Guardian, Quote, across the country, protests continued to be held in major cities. They include a daily sit in front of the Victorian Parliament, weekly protests at the Sydney office of the Prime Minister Anthony Albanize, and prayer vigils at various locations. Protests are being held against Israeli shipping companies zim at Port, Botany in Sydney and at the Port of Melbourne where there is an
ongoing presence. Patty Gibson, an organizer at Trade Unionist for Palestine, said workers were keeping an eye out for future ZIM arrivals in order to facilitate snap protests.
Quote.
Our intention is to disrupt the businesses and we're calling for a boycott of Zim shipping, Gibson said end quote. Now. The group Trade Unionists for Palestine made headlines early November when they took action at the Port of Melbourne blocking entry roads, preventing trucks from accessing the area where the
Israeli shipping line operates. One hundreds also participated in a direct action to prevent an Israeli cargo ship from docking at Sydney's Port Botany on November eleventh, and that included
many members of Trade Unionists for Palestine. So to talk about all of this and more, I got to speak with April and seb two members of Trade Unionists for Palestine who have been there on the ground in Australia taking action with their fellow unionists to disrupt the war machine, to force a ceasefire and to end the violence of
Israel's seventy five year occupation of Palestine. Here's our conversation, which we recorded late at night on Friday, November seventeenth from the Real News Networks studio in Baltimore, although it was Saturday morning in Melbourne for them. All right, Well, April Seb, thank you both so much for joining us today on Breaking Points. Hello from across the world. Good morning. I was wondering if you could start by just introducing
yourselves to the Breaking Points viewers and listeners real quick. Yeah, I'm Seb.
I am an Earliot educator, so I welcome my kindergarten sitting.
Yeah, my name is April. I'm an organizer with United Workers Union, which is a large blue collar union here in Australia of about one hundred and fifty thousand members. I am organized in early childhood with members like Seb. I also work in the kind of background strike an event logistics. So yeah, I've been doing that for seven years.
And you were both members of Trade Unionist for Palestine over in Australia. Correct, Yes, that's correct.
It's a pretty good you know, it's like a nice rank and file organization that popped up pretty organically.
All right, cool, So I want to hear all about that. I just gave a little bit of an intro when
we introduced the segment earlier. But I guess, like before we start talking about how Trade Unions for Palestine itself came to be in the actions that y'all have been taking over there in Australia, I wanted to kind of take a quick step back, kind of like we did in the previous art of Class War segment that we did with another fellow worker, a healthcare worker here in the United States, who was also taking action for Palestine.
So you both, you know, and other members of Trade Unions for Palestine, the rank and file group that you refer that we were just talking about over in Australia. I mean, you're all working people, just like the rest
of us. So I wanted to start there, like, tell us more about who you are, what you do, what working life is like for you and workers like yourself in Australia these days, and then tell us about how you came to be, you know, an active fighter in the movement to stop Israel's occupation of Palestine and its genocidal destruction of Gaza. Like walk me through how those two parts of your lives have converged in this moment.
Yeah, So working as an earli as educator, you know, that's basically working with children, educating them, helping them get the best sort of set up for their life. Been working in that sector for five years now, and you know, working in a sector like that, you interact with a lot of children and families from very diverse backgrounds, and the vast majority of them, particularly where I work, you know, people who either are or directly related to people from Palestine.
They have some connection to the to the people and the suffering going on there, and you know, just sort of working in that sector, you can very you know, easily rationalize that this is something that's really important to stand by. In regards to what it's like to live in Australia, it's you know, for working class people, it's quite difficult. The cost of living is through the roof. And you know we've got because we've got a monopoly in our sort of food provider industry, which is colloquially
referred to as Colesworth. We you know, there's a lot of price gouging in regards to just basic necessities.
So I think there is.
You know, this sort of convergence for a lot of working class people with frustration of their their own living conditions and then seeing on the other side like the most violent way that that plays out. And I think they have developed quite a lot of international solidarity with the suffering that's going on in Palestine.
So just to I suppose echo what Seb was saying. The sector that I organize in, and Seb works in very howard. He is a very inspirational leader and a very inspirational educator for children, has been doing it for many years. It's a sector that leans very heavily on visa workers, on primarily women who are on their student visa. It's a sector that kind of burns through workers and
pays them very very low rates. Essentially. The thing that kind of strikes me as an organizer when I go out to speak to educators like Seb at their sites. These are incredibly skilled and important workers who have been through an education process to become the professional educator that they are, but they're being paid what we call in Australia award rates, and these are rates that are basically the bare minimum. There's no agreement there, the bare minimum
that they can be paid. And this is the majority of the sector. This is the for profit sector, which kind is the bottom line is about how much money they can make. So you see when you have these conversations with educators that they are really really feeling it.
We as organizers are experiencing it through them. The cost of living crisis, the fact that they are working all hours, they're working over time, they're not really getting paid properly for that overtime sometimes and this kind of cumulative impact leads to them not being able to do things like go for holidays, and it creates this kind of two tier labor system within the sector, which is reflected elsewhere
in Australia. And there's this kind of this kind of false idea that Australia is this lucky country, but unfortunately Australia is actually being built on a colonialism, which of course you know, relates to what we're discussing today, but also the exploitation in a very real way of migrant workers.
And what's really inspiring and one of the reasons why I'm so involved in what we're doing taking action for Palestine is these educators are actually relating to this struggle and they're turning out we have more educators coming to our rallies every week, week on week because people are becoming aware that this is a class thing and this does not have boundaries. They relate to what they see, They relate to seeing children, relate to seeing women, and
they think, my god. You know, there are educators in that country that are trying to do the job that we're doing under unimagined you know, pressures. So that's the context in terms of Australia. I've worked in this space for about fifteen years. My background is policy in the UK.
I previously worked for a group called Labor Friends of Palestine in the Middle East, which is a advocacy group within the Westminster kind of bubble for want of a better word, that was for many, many years trying to build a progressive case for for statehood, for the lefting of the backade, the separation policy. And you know, that feels like many years ago now with where we are as at a party, but that's how I came to
it originally. And here the work that we're doing as a union just does top dovetails so much with.
That struggle, right, I mean, you know, again, from one settler colony to another. You know, I find a lot relatable in that, and I feel like I'm seeing a lot of that, or at least some of it here in the United States. Even if it's not translating to say mass action, our labor movement is certainly lagging behind the rest of the world or other parts of the world that are standing up with courage against the genocide
that we are watching unfold. I'm sad to say that a lot of labor unions here in the United States have not done so, but many rank and file workers have, many local unions have, many groups formed by rank and file workers across sectors have and that is very heartening.
But I remember, you know, I asked the question the way that I did because I want to, you know, always emphasize for people that corporate media, as it always does, is going to try to if it's going to acknowledge the actions being taken by people around the world to try to end this madness in Gaza over there, that Israel is wiping Palestine off the face of the earth, People of conscience who just want to stand up and
do something whatever they can to stop this horror. The mainstream media, if it covers that at all will do what they always do. When we talk about protests, we talk about them as like as if the people there just sort of appear from nowhere out of like some Antifa basements, or that they're all just professional activists or agitators. And I think what we're seeing right now is no, these are just regular people. I was down in Washington, d C. Two weeks ago at the largest pro Palestine
margin US history. I was interviewing people for the Real News Network. Folks watching can go check it out. There's just people like you and me. Yeah, there were activists there, but there were over one hundred thousand people there, right. You just gotta you can't fill that much space in Washington, D C. Without just a lot of regular people like you and me. And so that's why I asked the
first question that way. And I want to kind of piggyback onto that and and focus in on trade unions for Palestine specifically, and and and the work that y'all have been doing there, the the the actions y'all have been taking. Right. You know, I first learned about y'all when I saw a tweet from my colleague over in the United Kingdom, the Great taj Ali uh showing you know, uh y'all out there in Melbourne, like shutting down a port and stopping you know, the unloading of a shipment
headed to Israel. So like, you know, that was really wild to see. I wanted to ask if you all could just take us there, like tell us how this group came together, what y'all have been doing, how you have been involved in it, and and and yeah, like what has been happening uh since that you know action that that y'all took early in November.
Yeah, so I trade used for Palestine. Like I said earlier, it was very organically formed. It wasn't sort of like an on high authority was like here we go, here's trade units for Palestine. It was born from a lot of unions sort of coming together and going we need to take a stand, like this is something that is just simply not acceptable. We can't just you know, sit idly by the action that happened at the port was
super cool. To really oversimplify it, but what what happened was there was a ship that was headed for Botany Bay in Sydney, but it had to go through Port Melbourne first, Like it had to go buy it. So we organized just this rally out the front where the police basically came out in force to say, you know,
basically tell us to sot off. Like it was pretty like high security levels, very aggressive police presence, and we sort of huddled around this spot where you know, we could sort of you know, make a good like area of organizing, and we were listening to speeches and discussing, you know, what else we could do. And I can't remember which company it was, but one of the Israeli trucks came through and people were just so frustrated. All of the workers there were so frustrated just seeing all
of these trucks come through. And eventually we just kind of had enough and we very spontaneously just went onto the road to stop it, to stop that truck going in to be able to be you know, sent off and help Israel profit on the genocide of Palestinians. So we sat there until we could send it back. We did not let it go through. It was a very powerful moment and I think for a lot of people too, it showed them that they actually do have this power, like it's not something that is given to us, like
we have it already. We just need to exercise it.
And just to.
Further echo again what SEB said, The actual grouping itself came from an open letter that unionist rank and file unionists started to sign.
So it was I think two members too loan members of a union called ASU, who were so frustrated at the lack of leadership from our own union executives that they started this open letter that got passed around and very organically all these different unions and the next thing you know, every single rank and file unionist is signing it,
and that's members and also organizers. So there was this kind of like sudden kind of coalition being formed that brought together all of the industrial knowledge of the different types of union in the different sectors that they cover in the different industries. And what we found was that unions were actually doing this on their own as well.
So workers in union were already within their own separate unions having conversations and thinking about pressure points where we could turn up and use our bodies to occupy space and go to rallies and banner painting sessions has been become a really big thing because it also brings in members who might not be ready to come out to an action, but they are able to engage with the issue around something that is quite accessible and we can
set around painting and have conversations around the history and why they need to be there as unionists. The actual action was organized within the Trade Unionists for Palestine group and crucially, crucially brought in the community because one of the things that we need to make sure it doesn't happen here is that unionists are organizing an isolation of
the communities that are actually affected. So we speak to APAN, who are the Australian Palestinian Advocacy Network, one of the biggest groups here that advocate for Palestinian rights, other kind of like rank and file groups within Melbourne, to build a coalition and to start thinking about how we can do this in a sustainable way. The ZIM truck that
came kind of turned up out of the blue. Really, we weren't sure that trucks were even going to come, but he turned up and there was this wonderful moment where we were all I think, we're all listening to a speaker at the rally that had been organized, and everyone's head just kind of turned and we see this truck coming towards us, and then this is just rush of human beings running into the middle of the road.
And then like you know, the banners come out. Everyone ends up sitting down and and we stay sitting and we're chanting, and it's the chance is up, up with liberation, down down with occupation. And it goes on and on and on for about you know, twenty minutes, and then this this uncle gets up to the front and tells us about his family who have in the last week died, and shows pictures to the crowd of his family and
who have died. And as far as I know this, this this man is still there now in a tent by the side of that road. So I think what's happening is there is there is a space being formed for grief, and that grief is making people show up. And I think that even if you are not a Palestinian person, when you're close to that grief, you understand why it's so necessary.
Yeah. I think that's really beautifully and powerfully put by both of you. And I just wanted to quickly sort of ask about that because I don't have too much time, and I got one more question I want to get to. But could you just say a little more about that space, Like what does the scene look like over there in Australia, Like I said, like, we are seeing a tremendous amount of action happening here in the United States. It's happening
in different pockets. It's happening in train stations, it's happening with you know, people demonstrating in front of Elbit Systems headquarters and manufacturing facilities. These are the sites where where groups like Palestine Action are stopping you know, like production of weapons that are going to Israel. Also, you know, people are you know pressing their elected officials. Right there's
a real battle going on between the narratives. You know, people are seeing like just one totally lopsided account on certain corporate media channels, and they're flooding to channels like this to see what else is out there. And they're
realizing that they've been lied to for so long. And so there's a real mix of stuff happening here because all of that's happening amidst you know, spikes and hate crimes, anti Semitic, you know, like it's crimes against Muslims and Arabs, and like there's a real high kind of tense moment in the country. There's also a lot of like McCarthy I repression coming on college campuses. People are losing their jobs speaking up for Palestine. YadA, YadA, YadA. We'll get
to that in a second. I wanted to ask if you could just sort of give us again a little bit of a snapshot of what else is happening there, Like, do you feel that you're alone in this over in Australia or is it the opposite? Are there more actions that y'all are taking part of, more groups that you're seeing coming to the fore and speaking up about this. You know, what is the response from the powers that be?
Like Parliament and Anthony ALBANIZI like, I think I call them Albanese in the introduction, but like, what's going on over there? I guess for people living over here in North America.
Yeah, Well, the one sort of I guess super awesome thing is that the community movement, the rank and file movement, is just growing and growing and growing. I don't remember the exact number of the last march through the city, but it was over I think it was over two hundred thousand from memory. It was huge, and you know, we've got these mass movements of people who are just
saying no, like this is ridiculous. On the flip side, we've got elected officials coming out and you know, some are just blatantly saying that, you know, Israel's in the right, while others are being a bit more sort of you know, vague with how they reached the same conclusion, and people are really getting frustrated with that.
The community is.
Getting annoyed and is starting to show that in a very you know, open way that like a lot of people have you know, started to connect that what happened in Australia and is still happening, this active you know colonization in Australia is now being played out for them in a very visible way over in historic Palestine. And I think that's really causing people to kind of, you know, raise their consciousness to this situation, to want to understand why these things are happening and how else we can
fight them. And it's been super inspiring to see more and more people who would traditionally not want to do any organizing come out and be trying to start mass movements.
And going back to the struggle to counteract you know, partial representation of the truth if it can use propaganda that I've never seen such propaganda in my life. It's it's almost constant. You know, you feel like you're being gas lit because you see the thing with your eyes, your own eyes, it's verified by an expert in the area, and then you're told that you don't see it, and it's it's maddening and it makes it makes you feel very frustrated, which you know, on the flip side, really
encourages you to turn out. That's that frustration of not
being heard, not being seen that turns people out. One of the things that we are doing as a union, as our union, United Workers Union, is we are actually actively going to our sites with information, with flyers, with ways that people can become involved, and we're having got to be called toolbox meetings where the organizer will go and have conversations with leaders at that site about the history and about the part that unions have played historically
around things like apartheid in raising up the voices of people who aren't you know, represented in news, who aren't generally listened to, and who are really homogenized and othered. So it's I would say incumbent on us as union leaders, people like me and seb to continue to have conversations to actually break through, because it's always much more powerful having that conversation with a human being in front of you, who you trust and who you know, than just sitting
and listening to the propaganda that's fed to you. And that is I think for any union organizer listening to this in Canada or in America, that is such an important thing for us to do right now, because because union organizing isn't just about your site, and it's not just about your industry, it's about the broader social good in the world and being part of that.
Tell. Yeah, well, and like you always saying, I mean, I think there is it's exciting to hear what you just said, you know, because it means that the future is not yet written, right. I think we are seeing a real battle over the future happen right now, and what happens next depends on what regular people like you
and me and everyone watching do right now. And you know I think that that, Yeah, like the ways that this sort of armature of ideology that had held so many of us on one side of this issue, that we were always fed just one side of it, and we ourselves are living in as I said, also the United States a successful settler colony that was founded upon the dispossession of the land and the genociding of the
people who lived here. And so I think that that is what the role that Israel always played for a
lot of Americans is. It was like it was like this symbol upon which we could project our own lingering colonial guilt and have it washed clean, you know, like through a settler colony that seemed to be the most sympathetic version you could have of that project of you know, like people like again the story we were told and the and the story that really, you know, means a lot to a lot of people who believed in that that you know, there was nowhere to go in Europe,
they needed Jews, needed their own nation, and that this was there was no one there right. Our media, our education made us not ask those sorts of questions that people are now asking themselves. And I think it's it's really hitting people really hard. But they we need to be steadfast and learn and and and understand as much of this as we can. But at the bare minimum, all you need to understand that is that this is wrong this shouldn't happen. This can't happen. We cannot let
this happen. We cannot let our world go on if this becomes permissible over and over again and we do nothing to stop it. You can do something to stop it. People like Seb and April are doing stuff like that. You know your fellow workers are doing stuff like that.
Whatever it is, you can do something. And that is always the message, as you all both mentioned that that is endemic to the labor movement, right It's baked into the cake of the labor movement is that we are stronger together and we are fighting for a better life for all working people who deserve better than this. So I wanted to end on that note really quickly, because we have gone a long and I do have to
let y'all go. But as people see these connections, as the blinders come off, as they allow themselves to feel as much sympathy for you know, dying Palestinian children as dying Israeli children, as they are dealing with that all at once and want to know what they can do.
But they're worried about again, as I described, the McCarthyite sort of fog on that is settled on the country, the pressures that are doxing people outside of their college campuses for going to a demonstration, even if they're not speaking at it. You know, people getting fired from their jobs,
people becoming paries within their own families. What would your message be to your fellow workers in North America and beyond about why you have, you know, taken that step to get involved in why you think it's important that they do.
My message would be pretty It would be pretty short and sweet. I will explain it a little bit though. Keep fighting, get united, get organized, and stay educated. Like we are stronger together. And people don't like people who fight for good because it's easier to stay on the status quo, because that's not hard to do. It's hard
to fight for what's right. So organize, get united, figure out how you can create a movement or a community that will support you, and keep yourself educated on what's going on so you know how to combat anyone who tries to feel disinformation.
I would say that this is actually a moment that we really need to rise to as a global movement of workers. And one of the things that I think really needs to be said right now is if any of your viewers watching just now are not in the union.
Join your union.
Find out who your union is, go online, find it, join it, and organize right because trade unions are one of the few really good resilient structures for engaging working people and channeling all of our energy towards taking action for what's right. Okay, join your union, organize like Sev said, and if you're in your union already, start to have conversations around what you as members are comfortable doing. Speak to your delegates, speak to your rep find out what's
happening at your in a community level. Turn out you signal right, because signal is relatively safe to talk about
actions that you can be part of. Because what we're talking about here, the need to join a union is it's not just about protecting yourself now, It's not just about how they can community around you that will protect you, but it's about building a country where nobody is allowed to dock somebody, nobody is allowed to fire somebody because of their viewpoint that you're strong enough as a union
workforce to prevent that from happening. Because in a democracy, nobody should be shut down for standing up for peace.
That is April and Seb, two members of Trade Unionists for Palestine, a rank and file group over in Australia. April SEB. Thank you both so much for joining us today on Breaking Points. I really really appreciate it.
Thank you, thanks, thank you.
Thank you for watching the segment with Breaking Points, and be sure to subscribe to my news outlet, the Real News Network with links in the show description. See you soon for the next edition of the Art of Class War. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other forever.
Excuse me, do you guys got a sport stern? Hold on, hold on, wait one second. Do you have any thoughts on CEOKA? What do you think about consulting?
Is it BS?
Or do they actually add value to businesses? So we're doing a piece trying to get people's thoughts on consulting. Is consulting legit business or is it just BS? It's legit.
I interned there this summer and it was very legit.
A few weeks ago, John Oliver on his HBO show Last Week Tonight, engaged in an epic takedown of mackenzie and the consulting industry, where secretive companies like McKenzie charge exorbitant fees to their clients, usually Fortune five hundred companies for quote unquote innovative advice, and all of our segment has garnered over six million views on YouTube so far.
McKinsey's advice can be expensive but obvious, its predictions can be deeply flowed, and it's all gonna be helped super charge economic inequality in this country, all of which is pretty striking coming from a company who's lead You've already seen some of its fundamental mission like this.
Our purpose is to create positive, enduring change in the world.
Yeah, but is it though?
Good question?
So I thought it might be interesting to hear from some potential aspiring future mackenzie consultants. We are at New York University's Stern School of Business, my alma mater, and we're hopefully going to talk to some students about McKenzie, which approximately thirty percent of the student population wants to
work at. That is true. In fact, I may have even underestimated that a little bit, because according to NYU's latest NBA Employment report, almost forty percent of the graduating class went to work for a consulting firm, with an average starting salary of nearly one hundred and seventy thousand dollars per year, along with a thirty K signing bonus. What do you think about consulting? Is it bs or do they actually add value to businesses?
I think the correct answer for me would be for my future, I think yeah, providesoral value.
Yeah.
No.
I mean I've also had like and I've been a little bit on the inside and know a lot of people and that you know, have worked in these firms, So they probably are adding value to businesses. I mean, when you go to mckensey with a business issue that you're looking to address, they're more than they're going to be likely to solve it in some capacity. But there's a chance that they're not accounting for like what people feel on the inside. How good does a business really
need to be? I mean, if they're not afloat but doing well and creating you know, revenue and profits for their stakeholders, what's the does do you need to go to the next level to and then have to you know, cut a bunch of employees. It'd be nicer if someone from mckensey works on the inside of a company and actually put skin in the game.
They do provide like some some consultation device that's like, does seem like common sense, but I think there's a lot more that goes into it, And based off like the casing and all the consultant consulting stuff that I've been doing, there's a lot that goes into it, a lot more than people think. So I think that's important to keep in mind.
John Oliver.
He also highlighted how mackenzie has spearheaded the extreme rise in executive compensation that we've seen in the last sixty years.
So there was one area where mckinziys historically advised the exact opposite of cost cutting, and that is executive pay. Starting in nineteen fifty, consultant of Theirs named Arch Patten started advising corporate leaders that they were underpaid, writing books like Men, Money and Motivation executive compensation as an instrument
of leadership. His advice was so wildly popular that for a time Pattern personally accounted for almost ten percent of the firm's billings and later came to be seen as a major contributor to skyrocketing executive pay.
What do you think.
About CEO pay? It did too much, too little? Just the right amount?
Oh, I don't know, because it's how much they want, how much they I think it's it's probably on a per person basis too, because the amount of uh, you know, work that they put in, the amount of hours I know those jobs are taxing.
The market does decide, you know, no one is going to pay three hundred times three hundred x you a salary per c if the market doesn't demand for it.
Yeah, I think they do get paid too much. But a lot of their compensation out tied with their stock performance, right, So if they're getting paid more than I guess shareholders are also beneficiaries. So yeah, I guess it's good for everyone, except if you're not shareholders for the company, then I guess you were missing out.
The fact of the matter is if you work at McKenzie, that's kind of a springboard into a very great career.
There's a lot of well.
To do people like CEO of Google, people to just all these guys that come from mackenzie. Are you comfortable, let's say, working within an industry that maybe does some unscrupulous things, but it's going to really help your career or is it unfair to ask people that to say you need to be morally right all the time.
It's very hard to say, right, but I guess as long as within the law boundaries.
I don't believe that the consulting industry is evil. I think that it is a good springboard if you want to put yourself and surround yourself by, you know, top minds, people who've been exposed to the highest level of transactions and the highest level of policy, and also just be in the kind of reaching distance of real policy makers and real change makers. It's it's totally legitimate to go to these firms.
For me, I would just follow my heart, Like, if I think this is right now, I'm going to do it. If I don't think it's right, it's not comfortable for me, I'll probably.
Pass on it.
You know, there's better ways to make money than just going against your marls and you know, make money from that.
Are there any red lines you think in terms of like, let's say McKenzie works with the Saudi government questionable human rights or regulatory gray areas such as consulting for the FDA at the same time they're consulting for a pharmaceutical company.
That's the market. Because the size of mackenzie is the size of the market. So in terms of red lines, Like, it's just more like everyone loves to see transparency and everyone loves to see kind of a value judgment. Personally, I'm not huge on like government tons of government intervention. So it's just kind of what the market created.
There should be more regulations, but also not everyone find this guy is a is a you know, Ponzi scheme runner. So I would say, like, there's definitely a lot of bias from outside of the.
Stern you know, just talk to more stern people. I think they're nice.
They're nice people.
I don't doubt that I'm one of them. But what business school students were willing to share I think pales in comparison to what they were not willing to share. Hold on, hold on, wait, wait one second. We're part of a news organization called Breaking Points. Are you okay with us using that footage?
No?
No, keep time in my opinion, but a lot of negated something I would be okay with.
I'm sorry, you don't want to be caught on camera?
Is that right?
Sorry?
Sorry, Y don't have time.
I'm gonna decline, but thank you.
Very difficult to get people to speak since they have a lot to lose. Yeah, I think about it. They has a lot of student student loans, two hundred thousand dollars in student loans, and then you have to get a job, you know, or else you can't. I did my best, but truly there is no, at the very least no financial upside in talking to me, so I can't really blame them for prioritizing their self interest. Truth is, modern corporations only love superficial diversity, what you look like,
your sexual orientation, things like that. But they do not love diversity and thought. And this principle applies before you get the job and while you're on the job.
And I think that's why you.
See so many unscrupulous business practices or personal misconduct go unchallenged. Your company is doing something shady tunnel vision, you say nothing. Maybe a coworkers is getting harassed by boss. Unless it's really egregious, probably best just look the other way and also say nothing for risk of you also becoming a potential cultural pariah yourself in the eyes of the company. Look,
I'm not here to be the morality police. And despite some of the cringe posts that you'll see on LinkedIn, some crap like this about helping the environment, or whatever. The uncomfortable truth is that corporations can't really be anything more than a platform or a vehicle to help you build economic security for you and your family, and unfortunately, as we all know today, that does come with tremendous societal cost.
That's it for me this week.
Let us know what you think. Also, if you enjoyed the segment, you can support my work by going over and subscribing to my YouTube channel fifty one to forty nine with James Lee. The link will be in the description below. Your support would mean a lot to me, of course, keep on tuning into Breaking Points and thank you for your time today.
All right, I'm Maximilian Alvarez. I'm the editor in chief of the Real News Network and host of the podcast Working People, and this is the Art of class war on Breaking Points after a historic six weeks strike that for the first time in the union's history involved workers at each of the Big three automakers going on strike at the same time, United Auto Workers at Ford, General Motors and Stillantis have ratified their new contracts with the companies.
As Dan DiMaggio reports at Labor Notes Quote, the stand up strike began September fifteenth, when thirteen thousand workers walked out at three Ford General Motors and Stillantis assembly plants. By the end, it grew to fifty thousand out of the one hundred and forty six thousand UAW members at the Big Three. The agreements came after a major escalation striking each company's most profitable truck plant. Workers approved the
deals at GM, Ford, and Stallantis this week. At Ford and Stillantis, two thirds voted in favor, but at GM the numbers were close. Just fifty five percent of workers voted yes, reflecting workers heightened expectations and frustration with years of give backs Any higher seniority. Assembly plant workers at all three companies voted no, saying the raises and retirement
gains were not enough. Still, DiMaggio notes the new contracts go further than many people thought possible on issues that the companies had insisted were off the table now as far as those contract gains go. As Jamie L. LaRue of Detroit Free Press Rights quote, the UAW represents about one hundred and fifty thousand auto workers at the Detroit Three.
In the contracts, which largely mirror each other with a few individual company exceptions, the union won back some of the big provisions lost during the Great Recession, such as cost of living adjustments or COLA, annual bonuses for retirees, and the elimination of wage tiers. The agreements will provide compensation increases of at least thirty three percent after COLA, and compounded wage increases up to over one hundred and sixty percent for some of the lowest paid workers over
the four point five years of the contract. The union won a three year wage progression to the top pay rate, down from eight years at all three automakers. At Stalantis, which makes Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram and Fiat vehicles, it will reopen an assembly plant in Belvidere, Illinois that it idled in February. The automaker committed to build a three point two billion dollar battery plant there, employing more than
one thousand union workers. Also, the UAW won commitments at all three companies to bring thousands of electric vehicle and battery jobs under the union's national agreements. Finally, retirees will receive annual bonuses for the first time in fifteen years, a one point twenty five billion dollar boost in their total benefits. That is a billion dollars more than the union won for retirees in the last four contracts combined.
At all three companies, traditional workers hired i e. Those on the job before two thousand and seven won a five dollars increase to their pension multiplier, the first time getting an increase in over fifteen years. Still, many at GM were dissatisfied with that increase and cited that as one of the reasons several GM assembly plants voted no
on the agreement now. In a Facebook live message to union members on November eighth, UAW President Sean Fain acknowledged that the union had not won on all fronts, including in the fight for a thirty two hour workweek and the fight to reinstate defined benefit pensions for workers who were hired after two thousand and seven. Quote. What we did win in this contract will change many lives, Faine said. But we went into this round of negotiations to and tiers.
One of the biggest and worst tiers in our union is the difference between pre two thousand and seven and post two thousand and seven hires, which determines who gets a pension in retiree healthcare and who doesn't. We didn't win on this issue. The fact is both of these issues are extremely difficult and expensive to fix, primarily because the Big Three, being so driven by Wall Street, refuse
to have the liability on their books. So already we're looking at twenty twenty eight for this issue, and we're thinking even bigger. Either the Big Three guarantees retirement security for workers who give their lives to these companies, or an even bigger player does the federal government. Look, No contract is perfect, No one wins everything they need and deserve in a single strike or a single union drive, and there is still much much more to for here.
But make no mistake, this is a momentous victory and a historic turning point for the UAW, for the auto industry, and for the labor movement writ large. After half a century of backsliding concessionary bargaining give backs to the companies under immense pressures of de industrialization and offshoring of jobs, after the post two thousand and eight explosion of lower paid tiers and permanent temp positions that turned a once stable career into just another precarious job for so many workers.
After being rocked by corruption scandals at the top levels, of the union, and after decades of devastating layoffs and plant closures, UAW auto workers fought valiantly to take back their union, to vote in new leadership, to rebuild faith and a fighting spirit among the rank and file file, to finally go on the offensive and put the bosses on the back heel for once. And they won. They did not win everything, but they won a lot, and
the owning class is taking notice. Non union auto companies like Honda, Hyundai, and Toyota have already announced incoming raises for their employees as a direct result of the UAW gains at the Big three, and the UAW has reportedly been flooded by inquiries from workers at non union plants
about unionizing, including workers at Tesla. Now that the strike has finally concluded and the contracts have been ratified, I wanted to take a moment to bring back some of the many UAW workers I've been interviewing before and throughout
this historic strike, including here on breaking points. So in this extended art of class war segment, I got to sit down once again with Nick Leivik, a General Motors auto worker, a rank and file member of UAW Local thirty one, in Kansas City and an activist with the Caucus Unite All Workers for Democracy. And we also sat down with Marcy Pedrasa an electrician at the Ford Chicago Assembly Plant and a member of UAW Local five point
fifty one. Here's my conversation with Nick and Marcy, which we recorded right here in the Real News Network studio in Baltimore on Saturday, November eighteenth. Marcy, Nick, welcome back to Breaking Points. Is so great to see you both. Thank you so much for joining me today, especially after this long, intense fight that y'all have been in. I hate to take you away from your much needed rest, but I really appreciate you being here and it's really great to see you both.
Good beer, Thanks for having me.
All right, So voting is in, the contract is ratified. It is a new day for the UAW, a new day for the labor movement here in the US, and y'all have been on the front lines fighting the good fight. And you know, Nick, you and I did a segment here together for Breaking Points before the strike began back in August. Lots happened in the world since then, so I was wondering if we could sort of just take
a step back. Let's reflect for a second. Let's refresh everyone's memories about how far we've come in a short amount of time, what the strike was really about, what was significant about it, and what it felt like. From your vantage points is rank and file workers and you know, active members of your union working to organize and uplift
your your fellow union members, your fellow workers. Take us back, Nick, why don't we start with you and just sort of like for folks who are are you know, maybe forgetting like, you know, like where this all started, what was what it was all about? You know some of that gets lost in the coverage of the strike as it's going on.
Let's start back to, you know, where we were when we all were talking before the strike, because of course you, me and Marcy and another one of your UAW members did a podcast together before the strike as well, So let's talk about let's go from there to here from your eyes, what where? What was this strike all about? And what was it like for you all to live and fight through it.
I really think that this strike was about charting a new a forward for the UAW. We saw a lot of a lot of different things from from listening the public demands which were very ambitious to to transparency like we've never seen before with the live streams. I mean, that was the first time I've ever seen my international president get up there and give up weekly up dates of where they were. And we had a completely new strike strategy. There was a lot of people talking in
the media saying, oh, this isn't gonna work. This is uh this, this strategy is too insane, Like it's not. You guys are demanding too much. And what we saw in the end result is a very militant membership that stood up. Rallied around the call, rallied around their their membership, and we won the most large, the largest contract in the UAW in the last twenty years, I believe, dating back to Walter Ruther even so nineteen seventy. This is
our largest contract. Since then, we've seen some some record record games. We've reinstated a cola temps have a shorter path to.
Full time.
We've rolled in all of the CCA and gmc h
plants at my facility. I know the phrasing is different for Forden stillanis, but that's huge and that's what people should really take for this, Like when you're when you're unionized and when you're you're aligned in solidarity and you're actually standing up and fighting for this stuff, and you have a leadership that's backing the rank and file, and that's actually keeping the rank and file informed and pushing and and helping the rank and file push forward, you
can win record contracts. And we've seen that now with the the Teamsters ups and the UAW.
I agree with everything Nick just said.
So you know, for us like starting back, going back to our contract campaign even you know, just trying to get more information to the membership on the shop floor about what this contract you know, can possibly mean for us in with this newly elected leadership, right. You know, in the past, this was only my third contract in the past two you know, I've known many folks who might not have even voted before because you just thought it was hopeless or why bothers.
Is going to pass anyway.
You know, they're shamming these contracts down our throat without any transparency, right, or or updates on bargaining. So we've seen a real shift in getting members you know, involved and just excited and pumped up to be part of this campaign or even to be.
You know, asked to join the stand up strike, you know.
I know that every week when there was the live updates and the announcement of a potential plant being struck, you know, people were on the edge of their seats, like I said, going to be us or you know whatever, And many members were kind of disappointed when they found
out it wasn't them. And that just shows to you know, their you know, excitement about this and just wanting to be part of this historic moment, the first time that having all Big three a plant or someone from all Big three on strike at the same time, you know. And there were you know, obviously a lot of folks who were you know, naysayers or didn't agree with the strategy.
I mean not just I mean the membership, but you know, mainstream media or just everybody who wanted to have their put their two cents in, right, But at the end, I think most of us have to agree that it was brilliant.
The strategy worked, and.
We would not have seen these gains if you know, it went another way. Like Nick said, you know, this is the most the highest wage increases we've seen in the last twenty two years combined.
That's going to be life changing. For all of us.
I think, you know, especially these newer temp workers are going to get even bigger wage increases right off the bat, you know, just to be able to say, like, you know, I want to work here, and I want to stay here because now I have a fair living wage. I'm not just gonna work a few months or years and then go somewhere else where I can potentially make more money or get better benefits.
You know.
One of the.
Important things, or few of the important things for me, was the that's still the just transition to electric vehicles, right which you know, we we have won some gains there, but I have said, you know, it's like we have our foot in the door when it comes to those plants, you know, which they said was impossible before, right that we wouldn't be able to to get that right off the bat.
So that's great.
And then also even though I worked for Ford now, but I used to work at Belvedere Assembly plant, and you know, just the fact that they are going to reopen the plant and build new vehicles and a new battery plant nearby and a parts distribution center that's going to be beneficial to the community of Belvidere, you know, I grew up on the southeast side of Chicago, and I seen when the steel mills closed and when they
all left, and how it just devastated our community. And you know, when I moved to Belvidere, is coming from big city to a small city. I was kind of like, where am I going in rural Illinos. You know, on one side of the street, you see some Trump posters, and then the other side, you know there's a Mexican migrant farm worker making she shut on in his backyard.
You know, there's a huge Latino community in Belvidere, just a lot of working families and for for if Belvidere were to have been shut down, you know that that would have really just been awful for the small town.
And I'm just glad to see that it can still be a thriving community.
Yeah. No, I think I think it's really huge. And I want us to circle back to that in a second, because I mean, for breaking points, viewers and listeners, if you guys, remember another UAW member and auto worker that I interviewed on this segment during the strike was Austin Gore, who was striking in Toledo, Ohio after he had to you know, leave his family momentarily when Belvidere, the Belvidere plant got shuttered, and you know, he described like how
devastating that was to him, him to his family. And this is the situation that so many auto workers have been put in for so many years. And so the fact that we that the UAW has fought to turn the tide on those plant closures to have more of a direct say in managerial and business decisions at the company level is huge. I want to like circle back to that in the next round of questions, but I wanted to just sort of follow up on what you
guys were talking about regarding to strike itself. Are there any like particular moments or memories that really stand out to you that you want to share with folks like Marcia. It could be the moment that you heard your plant was one of the ones called to stand up right, or it could be a moment that you y'all experienced on the picket line itself. Like I guess, like looking back now that this intense struggle, you know is well, the struggle is never over, right, but this contract fight
has concluded, and y'all are kind of looking ahead. Are there any sort of moments from the strike itself that you want to share with folks or that that stick out in your memory.
For for me, like my membership. We were we were laid off about three three working days after Winsville went down, three or four, I can't remember. And I had been trying to you know, I got I got two small kids at home, and my wife still works, so we were trying to arrange our schedules so we could actually go out to Wentsville, which is about three to four hours away. It's on the other side of the state from from where my locals at. So we loaded up the truck, we took our kids out, my kids out
there three and uh one. So so just to give you guys an idea of what that car car ride was like, we get there, you know, the kids are finally excited to get out of the car, and you know everyone at Wentzville two two five, oh, they're given high fives, They're excited we're there, and like, it was just really heartwarming for me to to not only be accepted fully on you know another locals pick a line, but to also have like a village in a sense, you know, all all of your brothers and sisters, all
of your union siblings are just welcoming you. And they're not just welcoming you as a member, they're welcoming your entire family, you know, offering you snacks, you guys, need any drinks, you guys, and like they're the one they're the ones out on.
Strike, you know.
So, so it was just really heartwarming when we when we finally found the time to go over to Wentsville, and how welcoming they all are, And it really gives you the sense of camaraderie and and how deep that bond goes because here are perfectly fine strangers and all they know is you're from the other side of the state and you're coming to show support, and they're doing like whatever they can can offer you, from conversations to snacks.
I mean we we literally had people bringing up bags of chips to our kids, like, hey, you guys want some cheetahs And you know, my kids are loving it. So it was just it was fantastic. And I really think that that's probably one of the biggest takeaways I'll take away from this strike, is just how how deep that union bond is and how much it means to me and I imagine all of us.
For me, it was a few things. Obviously.
First, you know, I was sitting in my living room watching the live update from Sean Fain on Friday and I heard Chicago Assembly Plant and I will spit out my coffee.
I did scream. I think I jumped up. There was nobody in my house but me.
And immediately got ready to go go to work basically at the Union hall, even though it was my day off, right, but I knew, as you know, an involved member in my union, I.
Have to do something.
I have to go, even if it's just making signs or you know, trying to.
Like tell people what's going to happen the next few days.
Because obviously the first day was very chaotic and we didn't have everything set up yet to sign folks up for strike benefits. So it was just exciting and exciting moment and time to be there. Another emunctious uh that stands out is we had a big rally at the whole October seventh, where labor leaders and elected.
Officials came out.
You know, it was huge, was the most crowded I've seen our hall, Like it was standing roomontely. People were overflowing on the parking lot, and like one of our local not my aldermen, but an alderman from Pilsen in Chicago came out and he's texted me like, I can't get inside. I'm like sorry, it's to capacity, you know. Like, but they were able to watch the rally outside where
you know, they had great speeches and all that. But and and also to see like you know, Seawan Feyn come out to every picket site and talk to members and you know, just be in involved in in our strike too, you know, because we've seen a lot of coverage of you know, everyone going around to the Michigan
plants and all that. So that was that was really significant for a lot of people just to see to see that happen, which you know, I don't think that's happened before, but mainly too, just the the camaraderie and the picket lines, right, you know, just for me first time being on strike, but being in Chicago, there's always a strike somewhere right Chicago teachers Union, hotel workers, and you know, I've supported them, and it was just great to see all of them come out to support us
as well. You know, we had so much support from
other labor unions, the local community. I mean, tons of small businesses just dropping off food and supplies, and you know, we made a list so that we remember these places so we go back and you know, we support them, especially the ones near the plant because I live and work near the plant, so some of these businesses are you know, ones I frequent, and I just want to make sure that they're recognized and supported because I know they were struggling when you know, a most five thousand
of us walked out. You know, nobody was ordering pizza every day or lunch, you know, but they sure did come out and bring us free food. So that was amazing to see. And just having conversations on the picket line with people and I've never met or people that
I've said hi to but never really talked to. You know, it was a great moment to bond and share experiences and just you know, make sure that everyone is you know, educated and involved and keep this momentum going because who knows, you know, what we're going to do in four and a half years.
Right, Yeah, And I like while I was listening to you both talk, I was sort of reflecting on how I would answer that same question right as someone over here in Baltimore in the media who's been talking to y'all throughout this whole saga, and well, before you know, I think that that obviously is my memory from this strike was, you know, first connecting with Nick, interviewing him for breaking points, then doing a podcast with you guys, Nick,
Marcy and Taurus, who was another UAW member, Then having like Marcy on a live stream at the Real News Network with a sag AFTRA member who was on strike, and hearing y'all talk about how your struggles were more connected than they may appear in you know, then they may initially appear. And that was just such a beautiful
moment of solidarity. That I had the privilege of seeing moments like those by talking to workers like yourselves throughout this saga and seeing the solidarity y'all were bringing to other strikes and struggles that were either going on at the time or are still going on as we record this on Saturday, November eighteenth. You know, that was really
significant for me and really beautiful to see. Also, I just got to say, you know, again, as I've mentioned on many interviews up until now, having interviewed so many striking GM workers are laid off GM workers from the twenty eighteen layoffs and the twenty nineteen strike, before the era of Sean Fain and this new reform movement within the UAW, before y'all you know, like voted to have direct democracy in your union elections, which led the union
to elect Seawan Fain right before all of that, just talking to workers in twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen and hearing how dissatisfied and betrayed they felt by their unions, by the company, and just how hopeless things felt to see for us to go from that to seeing Sean Fain wearing an eat the Rich shirt talking to the members in the country about how some of the ev plants were going to be brought under the Master Agreement, Like that is a seismic shift in the movement, in
the politics, the class politics of this country. They you all made happen, and so like that's where I want us to conclude in terms of like thinking about this strike in terms of the big picture and the long trajectory of the UAW, the auto industry, and the labor movement, and where this strike kind of fits into that. But
I guess really quick before we get there. I just wanted to ask for people watching and listening to this, if you could say a little bit about the ratification votes, like the results of the strike, right, and and people were hearing, you know, news reports that some locals voted the TA down whether they were in general Motors Ford Stlantis right, you know, you had three big three auto makers,
different kind of groups voting on those contracts. Like, I just wanted to ask if you could a just sort of clarify for folks watching, like what the results do mean and do not mean? Like, you know, like what sort of mis conceptions do you think folks have as they're trying to parse the results of these the contracts that resulted from this strike and the votes from the
membership on those contracts. And and do you feel yourselves from where you sit, that that this strike has brought the union closer together or changed things within the UAW itself.
So I'm one of the people, like I don't I don't really hide what I what I say or do. I voted yes on this contract. This was the first contract I've ever voted yes on. I think thought it was an amazing contract. That being said, my local was within four votes of it being voted up or down. So's there's a lot of people that felt like, you know, we could have stayed out, we could have won more.
There's people that aren't happy with like the amount of benefits that we won for the retirees, you know, we won their first race since I believe it was two thousand and two, and their pensions. There's some people that wanted a bigger up from like there was just there's some things that people wanted to see they didn't see.
But for me, it was about like looking at how how life changing this was going to be as a tier two person, I took a decade to get to top pay and knowing that that's never gonna happen again for anybody coming in after me. Like I said in a previous interview, this this this strike was about the next generation. While doing everything we can for the current and actives, you know, the next people deserve to have a better chance that that we got. What you're seeing
with the results is democracy in action. I wouldn't have it any other way. Dissident is dissidents is important and in vital to democracy. People have the right to vote now and then that's what you're seeing with the results. But with democracy, majority does rule, and that's what you're seeing play out. I think the strike really did bring a lot of people together. I mean you saw offlying squadrons, especially up in Detroit, going out to different picket lines.
It didn't matter if they're Affordstlantis or GM. You know, there were people out there driving across the across the country, across states.
Man. This was really.
I mean, you said, it's there's no other way to say it. It's a seismic shift. And with that, you know there's gonna be there's gonna be a lot of people that aren't necessarily willing to or aren't ready to trust the new leadership. And you know that's that's to be expected. You know, we're we're coming off a corruption scandal that I mean, a lot of people were embarrassed to wear their UAW shirts in public, a lot of people burn their UAW shirts. I mean, it was it
was that bad. Morale was that low. You don't bounce back from that instantly. I think Sean Fain and the members United and this entire executive board is doing a hell of a good job with the transparency being open, being honest with the membership. And I think that's where it where it starts, and where we got to go to win some of these major demands back, like getting defined pensions back, getting better raises for retiree retiree healthcare.
We have got to unionize the transplants. So if you are a Toyota worker, if you're a super worker, if you're Honda, if you're Hyundai, if you are an auto worker in the United States of America, you need to be reaching out to the UAW and you need to be organizing because your management is afraid of you guys having the power to fight back like we did. That's why you're already seeing Honda fight back in internal emails
warning the workers about unionizing. So that's where we got to go next as a union, in my opinion, in the in my sector, because keep in mind, the UAW is bigger than just autoworkers.
So yeah, I mean this, who could have predicted all of this?
And I think the you know, the people were asking you this so much, like people that were supporting us, Like I'm surprised it was so close, Like I thought it would pass across the board. And you know, I I kind of assumed for a ford at least that it would it would pass, and but it would be
not a landslide, you know, for many reasons. You know, some folks were still holding out on retirement, healthcare right or pensions like Nick said, you know, work better, work life balance, which were all things.
That you know, we thought we could win.
I mean, obviously you can win everything in one contract, but I attribute that to you know, our elected, newly elected leadership getting everybody so fired up that we thought we could.
Win it all.
Right, damn it, Like we're out here, we might as
well stay out here until we win it all. So that's just you know, like exciting, right to see that much involvement and you know, interest in what's going on in our union for the first time in many years, right, So just you know, getting everyone on board and with our demands and fired up, and hopefully that will continue, you know, in this next organizing drive in the next few years, you know, so that we can keep fighting for these things that we didn't get in this contract,
you know, and it definitely changed you know, many many workers attitudes towards just you know, our whole campaign across the country and getting support from from non union workers, you know, like like Nick said, we we got to reach out to all these non union shops and they've been reaching out to the U a W already to join,
and that's that's going to be great and huge. We just you know, increase our our membership, right, because that's that's how we fight, is with with our labor and I say organize the world, right because uh, that's what it's going to take to to you know, defeat the ruling class and to get what we deserve.
So yeah, we got a.
Little lot of work ahead of us, you know, but I think it's also important to take a break and take a pause when you need it. You know, it's important to so that we stay you know, in this fight, that we have the energy and because it's you know, it's not a marathon or right, it's a it's not a sprint, that's a marathon.
Right.
I've heard that said before.
So we got our work cut out for us, but it's going to be it's an exciting time for the labor movement and I'm just glad to be part of this this fight.
Heh. Yeah, it's essair And like, you know, I think that that's beautifully put right. I mean, this is this is kind of the message I preached to anyone and everyone who is rolling up their sleeves right now and saying, look, the world's in a dire state. Uh, it's got to
be us to fix it. And we got to do whatever we can wherever we are, whether we're talking about the destruction of our shared planet, the destruction of our fellow humans in endless war, or the destruction of our society by you know this, this sort of vampiric rigged economy that is screwing over working people for the benefit of a you know few rich executives and shareholders. Right, we got to be the ones to fight back against this,
and it's a life's work. We may not see the culmination of it, we may not get to the Promised Land ourselves. But like you all said, and like you and your union siblings, we're fighting for like we're fighting for the next generation. We're fighting for our kids, like we're fighting as hard as we can now for the
folks who are here now. But we're also committing ourselves to a fight that goes well beyond us, and that is going to be you know, like carried on by the generations that come after, and so we got to dig in deep. You know, it's not going to be an easy, you know, victory. It's not going to come you know, like in the next year or two. It's
a life's work. And I want to sort of end there and sort of take the this historic you a stand up strike again the first time in the uaw's history where y'all struck at each of the big three automakers at the same time, even if you didn't have every worker at those companies go on strike at the same time. And you know, like there's just so much kind of historical context that we've given over the course
of the past couple months in our different interviews. We can't go through all that now, but just again, I want to really like stress to folks go back watch
and listen to those interviews. Think about this contract fight, not just in like the kind of recent context of the UAW corruption scandals, the post bankruptcy, the post two thousand and eight shenanigans, although that's really crucial, right, but also like in the broader sweep of things, right in the larger trajectory, right, we've talked about the auto industry as a symbol of like de industrialization in the United States, manufacture going away and those sort of good union jobs
also going away. Well, the pictures a little more complicated than that, because manufactured auto manufacturing has not gone away in the United States. What has happened is that the industry has been deunionized. And the companies that Nick mentioned, companies like Nissan, Hyundai, Honda, Tesla, right, I mean, like, these are the companies that are replacing those you know, good union jobs at in American auto manufacturing with non
union jobs. And so the fact that the UAW has waged this incredible struggle at the big three auto makers, and that that struggle is already spooking companies like Toyota to give raises to their workers, and it's scaring the living shit out of Tesla and Elon Musk that an organizing committee is being formed out in California. Like that's
the ripple effect of this struggle. But the struggle itself is against this this kind of larger shift in the economy that has pushed workers to work for work longer, for less while you know, like and have fewer workers doing more work and have like more chances for workers to get trapped in low wage work or lower tier employment with no possibility for advancement, no possibility for retirement, so on and so forth, all while the companies that
employ us and their shareholders are raking in record profits. And so the fact that you know, that's been such a long sort of trajectory that American workers have experienced for decades, and that the auto industry and its workers
like yourselves have experienced very acutely. But also like this, this is why I want to stress that, like the fact that y'all are kind of turning back the clo a bit, Like the fact that you reached back into time and you said to your employers, like, hey, we gave up cost of living adjustments for our pay during the financial crash that affected the world, when you guys were on life support, when our employers were, you know,
on the brink of collapse. We opened up our contracts and gave a lot of concessions, and we were promised we would get those concessions back when these companies were profitable again. And of course that didn't happen, and it was kind of just taken for granted that once you give something up like that, in a contract, you're never getting it back. But you, guys, changed that paradigm. You
went back and you got it right. And you mentioned the reopening of the Belvedere plant, again turning back the clock and saying to the company, to the employer class, to the capitalist class, you do not have soul sovereign, unchecked right to determine what happens with your business. Workers get us say too. People get to say too, like we get to say and whether or not this plant
closes and this community gets destroyed, that is significant. I wanted to just sort of toss that back to you guys and ask, taking in the broad sweep of history, the larger trajectory of the American labor movement and the fight to unrig this rigged economy, what do you want to communicate to folks watching and listening about the significance of this strike and what happens next? Like, where do we go from here? What should people have their eyes on moving forward from this historic struggle?
You know, I think in many ways, between the Teamsters and the UAW and on a lot of unions before us too. You're seeing since like twenty ten, unions are stepping up and they're fighting back and it's getting bigger and bigger every single year.
Here.
The historical I mean, you can't it's almost hard to even put into words what we've accomplished here, especially like if you look at stillanis they have the right to strike over investments and uh, I mean that that's that's that's huge. That was seen as a management prerogative, something that they have soul say over. So the fact that we were able to get that into our contract was was huge. And and where we go from there to
fix this economy is is we got to unionize. If you want to organize, you know, don't don't wait for a union to reach out for you. Start talking to your coworkers. You guys can form that organizing committee and then you can contact unions and you can say, hey, we got this organizing committee and uh, we want to unionize. You know, we've already been We've already got the groundwork.
And that's what it's gonna take. It's gonna take the working class of this nation to start organizing themselves, start talking to each other, start talking to their co workers and not being afraid of all the union anti union propaganda and the union busting firms that are going to come in. You know, these guys have one sole goal, and that goal they would rather spend millions on these anti union corporations to beat you guys down than have
you guys come together and beat management down. They want that total control over their workplace. And that's what we need to see in this nation, is we need to see workers starting to take the initiative talking to their co workers, forming those organizing committees, reaching out to unions and organizing because labor isn't this monolithic institution. Labor is workers.
You are your union, and that's what I really think is going to propel our labor struggle to the next level and is what this nation desperately needs to fix this rigged economy that we're facing.
Yeah, I just it to go back to talking a bit about the strike strategy, because you know, like you were saying, some folks were saying, oh, we should have all gone on strike, same time.
Whatever.
But you know, just seeing I think for the first time, like these companies, for the first time, we had them pitted against each other, right, trying to scramble for who's gonna come out with a better offer. So they don't have another plant going on strike, you know, like it seemed like they were running around.
Like chickens with their heads cut off for a minute, you know.
And usually that's what they want us to do, right, They want us to take the scraps and fight each other or be against each other, union versus non union, America versus the world, you know, and that's just you know, got to stop, right. We need to have solidarity, international solidarity, because that's how these companies work, right, They're already on a global economy, So we need to think and fight in the same way, you know.
And where do we go from here? Wow, that's that's a big loaded question.
And you know, me as an environmental activist, you know, we're fighting uh you know, these corporate toxic polluters you know that are contributing to climate change, you know, and that's that's a workers rights issue too.
You know.
We were just at a demonstration against the American Petroleum Institute, you know, huge lobbying organization.
That supports big oil.
And you know, what good is a job if we don't have a planet to work on, right, And you know, we need to keep standing up against the military industrial complex, you know, our tax dollars are going to wars and the genocide of people across the world.
And you know that's not right.
You know, we we They can't pay for payoff student debt or universal health care, but they have billions of dollars to fund these wars, you know, So just you know, whatever you're passionate about, get involved, join a union and fight against the one percent and the ruling class.
Oh yeah, well, Nick, Marcy, I cannot thank you both enough for joining us again on Breaking Points. I can't thank y'all enough for letting me annoy you and bug you for months saying hey, can we do another interview for this thing, for this thing like It's just been a real pleasure and honor to be in conversation with you throughout this struggle. Now, please, for the love of God to you and your fellow Union siblings, go get some rests.
Thanks brother, thank you anytime.
Thank you for watching this segment with Breaking Points, and be sure to subscribe to my news outlet, the Real News Network with links in the description of this video. See you soon for the next edition of the Art of Class War. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other. Solidarity Forever