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Let's talk about TikTok. It is big. I mean, this is just too perfect. I mean, I'll say this. I was prepared for this.
I knew it was going to happen. I've made my piece now long ago. Let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen. This is from Donald Trump two days ago before he took office. He says, I am asking companies not to let TikTok stay dark. Will issue in executive order on Monday, which has been issued by the Way to extend the period of time. It's approximately ninety days before the laws prohibition takes effect, so that we can make a deal to protect our national security.
This order will also confirm there will be no liability for any company that helped keep TikTok from going dark. Before any order, Americans deserve to see our exciting inauguration on Monday.
As well as other events and conversations.
I would like the United States to have a fifty percent ownership position in a joint venture. By doing this, we save TikTok, keep it in good hands, and allow it to stay up without US approval, there is no Tiktalk. With our approval, it is worth hundreds of billions, maybe trillions. Therefore, my initial thought is a joint venture between the current owners and or new owners, whereby a US gets a fifty percent ownership and a joint venture set up between the US and whoever purchase we choose.
So this tops like the new NPR is that well yeah, I mean, I don't think nobody really knows what is meant by this, including probably Donald Trump. But you know, if we're going to have state ownership of media, there are models that can be successful that provide editorial independence.
You know, we could buy up TikTok. We could buy Twitter, we could buy Facebook.
You know, have them run by an independent consortium, have independent funding sources, take the profit motive out of it.
Saga. This is the type IDA I can get on board with. Yeah, something tells me that's not what he does.
Possibly go wrong with all of it.
Here's the thing about the whole TikTok thing. Basically Trump was pro banning TikTok. It's like bitcoin pro banning Bitcoin pro banning TikTok leaves for four years. Remember what I said about being gone for four years. Well, what happened in four years? TikTok became massively more popular. I think it doubled its users.
Want.
An ex engineer on the platform actually revealed one hundred and seventy million people log onto the app I think once a month, and I think or eight ninety or one hundred million are spending an average of fifty three minutes.
Per day on TikTok.
Is this just in America?
In the United States?
Yeah, in the US, that's one third of the US population and probably, god I'm terrible at math, maybe like forty fifty percent of the US adult population. Just for context, so you can see here what it means and how much time people are spending on TikTok.
It's not to mention this anymore, No, it's everybody.
I mean.
I was on the Metro today and some guys scrolling TikTok right next to me, and I was like, I was like, oh, how'd you download that?
You know?
I was asking hibout. I was like, how does it work? Now?
I was like, oh, He's like, oh yeah. Dude went off like he had no idea what I was. It was like, oh yeah, it went off and then it came back.
I was so excited. It was interesting.
So the TLDR of all of it is it's a mess. Because the law that banned TikTok was supposed to go into effect on January nineteen. That law would impose ruinous fines on Apple, Oracle and all other US providers of any services to TikTok. Now, the thing is is that for the Apple and all these other companies to believe this executive order is lawful, which I don't believe it's lawful at all, is to believe that they will not
go through with the position of the fine. Now with Tom Cotton, who is the I think chairman or one of the high ranking members on the Intelligence Committee in the Senate has said is like, no, no executive order, delaying action is legal and will face scrutiny and could impose backfines on these companies. That's part of why I'm still not one hundred percent sure the way that it's working with the app store, with Oracle and all these other I know Oracles resume service in terms of its
ability to scroll. I think it was working if you have the app pre installed, but I'm still not sure if it's on the App Store right now. It's the same with the play Store for Google for these people.
If these companies are in complete legal limbo. And the real thing that actually kind of ties Trump's hands is you can do as many executive orders as you want, but this is an Act of Congress at the end of the day, and so the ability for trade organizations, even a Facebook, honestly anybody, to be able to file suit against them and actually have the court system impose
this block is very possible. I think what's clear to me is that Trump all only cares about being popular, and he knows TikTok is massively popular, and that he himself is massively popular on TikTok, and so because of all of that, his sole goal is to try and save the program and or save the company, but also use some geopolitics in terms of his negotiations with China to get it done. So that's something that I've seen
happen with him in the past. He's reportedly spoke with President She or Premier She in China.
They talked about TikTok.
I think he's going to be going to China probably in the next couple of months. That's apparently one of the first trips that he wants to make as president to discuss the issue. So he could pursue a forced sale and it could be like some sort of negotiation. It is just objectively crazy though, for the US government on fifty percent of TikTok, it's like and by the way, I mean, you know, would it be a victory for the pro palestin Indian side.
We're like, well, we save TikTok, But.
Now the government, the government, what do you go mitt Listen, Gaza people, what do you think is going to happen if the government owns fifty percent of that? You know, good luck with your BLM and trends and Gaza stuff under the Donald Trump administration or if Jade Vance wins the presidency next time, what's the first thing I would turn off? If you didn't want something in your culture
to be happening, That's the immediate thing. So I don't think it would be the best solution, but you guys do what you want.
If you're spending fifty three.
Minutes, well, I mean we already have the model of that, which is Elon Musk's ownership of Footer. It would look very much like that, you know, where certain things are very much prioritized and certain things are very much d ranked and actively censored, including you know a lot of pro Palestinian phrases and content, et cetera. So yeah, I mean the whole thing is just what do you even
say about it? Like from the looking at it from the democratic perspective, like, these people are total and complete, pathetic, embarrassing morons, morons like you couldn't predict that this would be wildly unpopular. So Trump is the person who really, you know, in his first term, towards the end of his first term, he starts pushing this issued some other executive order that it gets struck down, it doesn't happen,
blah blah blah, but he starts pushing it. Democrats are such idiots that, you know, the police starts to move on this where there was some nominal majority theoretically in favor of a TikTok ban in.
Oh, I guess we better get on board with this. I guess we better pass a law.
So they pass it, Joe Biden signs it into law, and then here, you know, in the waning days of the Biden administration, they're freaking out like, oh my god, I can't believe we did this, Like we don't want this to happen, No, this shouldn't go away, blah blah blah. It's like, what is wrong with you? You couldn't predict
the way this was going to play on. And also, by the way, do you have a single principle that you actually care about and are willing to stand by because polls can move around, you.
Know, you could actually just have a value.
You could actually just have a principle that you care about, and whether it's in favor of TikTok or against TikTok, you could just stand by that thing and argue for that thing. But no, no, they're just like blown around in the winds of wherever public opinion happens to be sickly led around by the nose by Republicans. I mean, Trump leads them into this thing, and then Trump leads them out of this thing, and they have no ability
to set the messaging or the agenda themselves. It's so utterly pathetic that it is completely insane.
That's you know. I also think it's a crisis of competence.
So the law passed and the Biden administration basically didn't do anything about brokering for sale. I mean, if you were being real, because the way to save it and for the Democrats to get credit, they could have gotten credit from the national security hawks and from the voters for saving TikTok.
You passed the bill.
Biden should get to China, right, he didn't have anything else going on, right, He literally wasn't even running for president. He should have flown to China, sat down with Sihinping, brokeered some sort of deal or sale or whatever.
They are multiple willing buyers here.
We have a shit ton of leverage on China if we wanted to be and then they could have saved it in they could have had it, and instead they kind of just bumbled their way in to a de facto ban. I mean it was hilarious too where I mean, how long we've been covering this story. I actually I know in terms of my monologues from twenty nineteen. In recent months, we're like, hey, the deadline's on January nineteenth,
looks like nothing's going to happen. And then you would see like Chuck Schumer the day before be like, well, we're going to try and delay it. It's like, dude, you're lawmaker, Like how did you not even know that this was happening? We're doing nothing behind the scenes. So I think there's a major competence of governance in terms of actually trying to execute the ban or even the forced sale. And also, yeah, it's like this weird, like what do you guys? What are you guys trying to
do here? And that's kind of what I'm That's the thing I'm still confused about.
Why did you guys all vote for this in the past. That's understand thing.
And that's the thing, and it's such a core problem for the Democratic Party, which is that under neoliberalism, they outsourced any core values to basically market logic, right, And a corollary of that is this idea of popularism, which is just like, let's take a poll and see what thing pulls the best, and that's what will run on and that's where we'll be. And again, polls change people's opinions.
Guess what.
But Republicans really successfully change their opinions on immigration, as one example, because they were willing to have, you know, something that they cared about and make the case for it over and over again and saga. I know the reality also helped them make that case, but the point still stands. They were willing to have a fight, even on things that were unpopular and to move public opinion. If you have no values, nothing you're willing to fight for.
Everything is finger in the wind, everything is market logic and testing it.
Then like it's just this is.
The sort of pathetic situation that you end up in and you never are going to be the primary mover. You're always just going to be chasing your tail or chasing Trump's tail or reacting to what the Republicans are throwing at you in the way that they're shaping the culture. And so that's why this story is so important outside.
I mean, it's important on its own right because TikTok is such a massive platform and it is an influential part of the culture, etc. But it's also important because it is indicative of one of the core failures of the Democratic Party and failures of like really meeting the moment. And so you know, for example, Trump's will see how long Trump's like newfound relative popularity lasts where he was flirting with a majority approval ratings, something he has never
had before. And I genuinely think a lot of that is just this sense of like, he makes decisions and he takes actions.
And even if you know.
Those are things that some of them I agree with or some of them I don't agree with. I'm talking about from like an average voter perspective, Like, at least he's taking action, he's making decisions, and he's doing things. The Democrats never can make a decision. They never know what they stand for. They never are willing to just say like, yeah, I'm I'm gonna make that thing happen. That thing is important, I'm going to.
Make it happen.
Right now, there's always got to be twelve committees or a parliamentarian that says I can't do it or whatever, and so, you know, I feel like all of that is sort of tangled up in this TikTok story and just illustrates their utter this and why they're now in minority and just lost the popular vote to freakin Donald J.
Trump.
Yeah, that's I think that's all well said.
I see it a lot, not only with a TikTok issue, but in terms of like what they're how they're dealing with Trump. I really think that they were just so unprepared for the collapse and lack of the resistance, and they just don't know what to do now for what it looks like, and all of the sensible things that they would want to do would be so detrimental to the Democratic Party establishment that they don't know how to deal with it, right.
I mean, the good.
Billionaire thing is the best example where they're like, Okay, so what are we doing here?
You know, I don't know.
People who don't get that reference.
Ken Martin, who is the leading candidate for the DNC new DNC chair, get asked about like taking money from billionaires. He's like, well, of course we're going to take money from good billionaires, which is not the bad billionaires. And of course his definition of a good billionaire is someone who gives money in the Democratic Party. And it's like, you know, maybe just having our country or run by billionaires is bad,
whether you think they're good or bad billionaires. Maybe that's just a bad thing that you should consistently stand against. But that would require having a principle and actually caring about Yeah, And it would, like, to your point, would be incredibly detrimental to the existing Democratic leadership, whose primary skill is sucking up to rich people and raising a.
Lot of money.
From what I have noticed most about many people who are new Republicans in the last four years, specifically new vibee based Trump supporters, Yeah, is if you ask them about hypocrisy whatever, they're going to be like, look, I don't even disagree with you, but and what are they gonna list I don't like George Soros, or I don't like you know, Mark Zuckerberg before his previous turn to
the day. They're like, I've lived under oligarchic, democratic, liberal cultural elite rule now and I hate it, and so I'm just gonna go with the other option. And I don't even particularly like the other option that much. In a lot of ways, the flight ninety three election was
twenty twenty five, it was not twenty and sixteen. Maybe we shoul debate that at some point with a lot of other people, But in terms of the way people felt, they genuinely felt as if there was no escape from the crisis of competence, of chaos, insanity, pressure, culture, whatever, all came together in terms of Trump because of who he is at a showman level, his ability to convey the message of I'm just gonna do what I want. I'm willing to hit the red button and I'm going
to vote for Trump. And I've been grappling with like, how did this happen over the last four years? And it's interesting because I think what it comes back to is an indictment of liberal cultural elite rule and so much of it when you're faced with because we're about to talk about meme coin, this is why it's a
good transition. Yeah, is really is really just comes down to they're like, okay, but Bill Gates, you know, blah blah blah, And there's just not enough people who have been involved at the high levels of democratic politics to call that out or establish any credibility on issue that they're like, screw you each shit, I'm not going to listen to somebody you know who took money from George or posing with Alex Soros and posing with Mark Zuckerberg and all these other people you know four years ago.
I don't want to hear it from you, right, And.
So then the issue becomes a non And that's exactly how bipartisan. What is it? The bigotry of low expectations. That's what's effectively now happening to American politics is that people have so little faith that the other side is going to do anything even remotely principled, that they say, screw it. I'm just going to pick the person who I think will get a little bit of what I want done.
And I totally under I did that that.
I don't like this position, But what a rational actor in a bad model?
Now, how you fix that? I have no idea.
Okay, you're talking to the wrong guy, But I do think that that feeling is so important for especially a lot of this New Bros. Fear in others is they just feel so beaten down by a lot of the democratic institutions and others that they just feel like as if they have no choice but to have a total escape.
And that's a very hard problem to solve. You know.
My view is effectively that after the Rock War and the financial collapse like that, sort of like twin blow, the neoliberal order was basically done. Now, this is not the way that any normal person poort articulated, but it's like the system as it exists, like this is bankrupt, this has failed, this is not delivering for me in any sort of a meaningful way.
We got to do something different.
And so you have these twin rival movements that you know arise. You've got the Bernie movement and you've got the Trump movement. And Democrats really had kind of a choice. They could have either focused their primary efforts on defeating trump Ism and you know, making that the priority and using models from history of how we defeat did you know, fascism in the past and right wing reactionary movements in the past, which was through the New Deal Coalition, et cetera.
Or Democratic elites could primarily train their fire on that. Bernie Sanders grossterswovem and so that they could maintain their grip on power within the Democratic Party and that was goal number one. I'm not going to say they didn't want a defuture, of course they did, but that was
goal number one. There were even there were New York Times articles about how they were they were willing to risk quote unquote party damage to defeat Bernie Sanders movement, and with that as their primary goal, they were wildly successful.
Wildly successful.
That's what the and Ryan was treating about this this morning. That was what the identity politics invention from Hillary Clinton, That's what that was all about. That was about saying, like, you all aren't even really progressive because you're not talking about intersectionalism and breaking up the big banks, isn't going to end racism, blah blah blah. Very effective, okay, and also really annoying to the population and created a massive
backlash to the Democratic Party. And number two, like Russia Gate, was also part of making sure that after Hillary Clinton was defeated, the most logical takeaway for people to have, you know, come to at that point was this lady who was like the queen of the neoliberals. This way of doing politics, this doesn't work to defeat Trump. This isn't the thing, Like we need to do something different.
But instead of having that takeaway, they had a takeaway of Russia and collusion and the p tape and Komi and whatever told a distraction tactic from their manifest failures at that time, and again it worked. It worked for what their primary goal was. It works like a charm.
And so you know, to me, the real you know, from my perspective, off ramp from this moment where trump Ism is ascendant, dominant, no breaks on the car maximist approach to governance, which we're already seeing with you know, pardoning all the Jasics people and launching his own shit coins and just like blatant, brazen theft of tens of billions of dollars from his own supporters. That was back
really in twenty sixteen was where the road diverge. And then there was another bite of the apple in twenty twenty with Bernism again. But you know, that kind of to me was when the course was ultimately set. So you know, and the pieces you say are not you know, that's that's another way of looking at that story, right. I don't think that those two things are like at odds with each other. But my own view of our
recent history and how we ended up with this. Really, twenty sixteen is kind of the pivot point where, yeah, where Democrats decide that rather than embracing their own left wing response to trump Ism, they're going to try to hold on to this bankrupt, discredited ideology.
That is being rejected, not just here, but rejecting it around the world.
Not only that, but actively embracing, pushing the culture and really making that the cornerstone of a lot of your argument against yes, the right and basically make against the left. I mean, look, I'm personally enjoying it, right Like I've hated this shit from the beginning. It's literally the only reason that that's what turned me to right wing politics was a rejection of what I thought was like cultural
liberal overreach. And so to see so much of the population completely blackpilled on any credibility of the media, on a lot of cultural like left wing shibbalts and things that we weren't even allowed to say over the last eight ye or you could say, but you're gonna have problems and all of that. I'm I'm really really enjoying that.
I do.
I'm curious too to see how much of that is all Trump needs to do in some cases is not even do anything. As long as the economy is fine and as long as a lot of this bullshit is not in our culture.
I think a lot of people might think that he's very successful.
I just know so many people who are so disaffected and so repulsed by these commanding heights of culture and other that just the victory of Trump himself was enough. I've been going back and doing some more reading about
the Reagan era. Very similar actually, if you go back and you look at one of the reasons why Ronald Reagan was part of the reason why the eighties was looked as like a way to save yourself from horror, the horrible like consternation of the nineteen seventies and all of that was a very similar period of like inflation, chaos of foreign policy issues, but also just like crazy shit going on in terms of like movements on the street from the new Left and the fall of the
Vietnam activism, and I mean even on the riot we don't talk about and look at some of the big right wing the Goldwaterism and stuff like that that Reagan was able to resurrect with the John Birch Society. I mean, these were huge huge debates in the country at the time. Reagan was able to use this like showman aspect of command in power, where look, he's an actor, right, yeah, he was a governor, but he had some beliefs.
But at the end they didn't do a lot.
But by doing that, just by kind of existing and buying being the showman, this cheerleader of the United States against Soviet Communism, he really was able to achieve like a massive approval rating and real vibe shift, you know, in the country. I have huge criticisms with Reagan presidency, but you know, I like to study. I'm like, why are people popular in their time? I think I think Trump will be a huge beneficiary of a similar movement.
Maybe I don't know. I already see signs of like, you know, tremendous over like the partnering the J six people.
That's not popular. No, I don't really, I don't think people care.
I repoined it really unpopular. So I think, I mean, see, I see this is possible. It's possible. But I think you're likely to see a backlash against him. I mean, I think there's I think there's also going to be a backlash against the you know more like aggressive and like visibly cruel immigration crackdown. I think it's also I don't think there's any guarantees about where the economy is
going to be either. I think there's, you know, very possible that we have like an AI or crypto bubble that completely bursts.
So a lot of question.
Marks about how this is all going to go for him. I mean, it's look again possible, but I think I think it's more likely that you're going to get some level of backlash too, because they're reading a mandate that is much broader than what voters actually handed them, and that leads to a lot of political It.
Only depends on which Yeah, I don't disagree.
I mean that point yesterday right in terms of overreach and what all of that stuff look likes. But I'll tell you why I disagree on the jan six stuff. This is a settled question. And in terms of what I mean by that is that the January sixth Americans heard more about January sixth and Donald Trump for four years straight period than any other issue about Donald Trump. He still won the popular vote, and he won his
own party. The idea that there would be some backlash to Donald Trump doing what he basically said he was going to do at least you know, maybe it's a little bit more that I didn't.
Say he was going to pardon people, but he like beating up police.
He didn't really say anything. That's what a lot of people forget. Jade May said something, right, but Republicans.
That was not I think clear to people. But listen, and people vote on a range of issues. So the fact that Trump still gets elected by a point a half doesn't mean that they were like, actually, January sixth.
Was fine, okay, But at this point Trump doesn't need to run for reelection. He's going to do it on day one, and people will forget about it in one week. One of the reasons why.
Things build, right, what I'm saying is it's a sign of the overreach. It's a sign maximalist. This happened like last night at nine pm.
That's my point. I mean, okay, but the traveling.
Of the maximust approach to governance that vastly overreads the mandate that he actually received from voters. So you know,
I think these things build on each other, right. I think part of Trump why he was able to succeed this time is that there was sort of rose color grats and glasses because he had been out of power for four years and people didn't really remember how chaotic it was and all of the worst things that they didn't like about him, but this was one of the things that they liked that they were the most upset about.
And it is a big part of the reason why Republicans in particular in twenty twenty two did so poorly all the Republicans that were associated with So to your point, he doesn't have to run for reelection, but some Republicans is going to have to, and not all of them are as Actually none of them are as like uniquely charismatic and magically politically skilled as Donald Trump is.
Yeah.
No, look, I don't disagree, but I think is day one, one of the things that they're doing is flood his own strategy is to embrace the vibe shift, is to do basically whatever they can at the height of their powers and try not to do anything too unpopular. So far, I think they've succeeded. I mean in terms of a lot of these executive orders. Yeah, they're gonna bitch and
moan on CNN about January sixth. People just don't care I really believe that people do not care about the party, or if they do, forget about it in a week.
Okay. The stuff that sticks with people is both a long term vibe.
So in terms of overreach, what would that look like, It would look like foreign chaos, it would look like major inflation.
Remember American stuck with Biden for what seven months? Eight months?
In the first eight months there was high inflation. At that time, they were like, hey, do something about this, do something about this. And it was only after a while when you didn't do anything about it, they were like, Okay, now we're going to turn on you. It takes a while, So these things need to bleed. You're talking about immigration. I mean, first of all, as we said, there's a
huge reality change. Also, if you look at the New York Times pulling on this issue with shocking in terms of the mass majority support for deportation, there's actually a huge support for mass deportation.
What I mean by that is mass.
Deportation of all illegal immigrants, a plus twelve issue from the New York Times. Now to your point, am I going to take that to the bank?
Right? If I'm not stupid?
I know how the media and how people are going to receive the reality of it. I know exactly what it looks like. I don't think most people do, so we'll see. You know, it prophsibly could change. But the fact that it's almost a seventy plus percent issue on deporting at least all of the people who are here illegally under the Biden administration is crazy, and that shows you the change in the status quo.
As long as it is executed, I think somewhat competently, he will be I think he will be more popular for it. The only way it goes south is well, actually, this is an interesting question too.
I'm not so sure if it can go south in the same way the trust in media has now gone down so much in the last eight years, the same conditions for the outrage over the travel ban and for the deportation or closing the border. I don't know if that mechanism still exists in the same way. I could be totally wrong, but I do not see the same organic.
Level of pushback.
You know, if you scroll my barometer is like normal friends Instagram stories. I'm not seeing the same stuff about racism, sexism coming to the Women's March.
Can't believe he did this.
I mean, you know, you remember people were showing up at Dulles Airport lawyers to try and help people to go through the travel bank.
Yeah, I don't see any that happening.
I don't see you know, Catholic charities and others organizing to try and help Guatemalans across the border, like all this infrastructure. ACLU right raised a billion dollars over the Trump administration. They can file and fight, show me your ten ninety nine. I don't think that they're raising the same amounts of money this time. So I just I think the country's changed. It's been eight years. The level of trust in the media and all the stuff on
this issue is way down. The reality situation has changed. And another thing that I guess Trump and JD and all these other people deserve credit for is they have stuck to this argument now for a long time, and I'm they've won in my opinion. Now the Democrats might be able to you know, if we have maybe I think the big overreach like what you're talking about would be like a mass deportation of DACA. Right, That's an issue which is definitely on the other side. Absent that
I don't really see it yet. But again, a lot of this is competence based.
So it's worth remembering that at the height of the initial George Floyd protests in Minnesota, there was a significant majority in favor of protesters burning down a police station.
Yeah, but again they didn't know what that meant.
But yeah, you're right, well yeah, And that's my point is it's one thing to in theory, support something when it sounds bloodless and painless, and you've been told that this will bring down prices for you and help deal with housing costs and labor. Sure, you know you'll get
better wages, blah blah blah. It's another thing to see the human reality of it and what that actually entails, and especially another thing when you know that human reality and cruelty ensues and guess what, your life isn't actually better. It didn't actually make your wages go up, It didn't actually make it so that housing was more affordable, or that other like core material problems you're struggling with with
in your life improve. And then you add to that the fact that the terriffs are very likely I mean, if he institutes anything like what he's talking about, the terraiffs will be inflationary, and that he doesn't believe he said this yesterary. He doesn't really believe that inflation was important to people. He said he thought it was overrated. He said he thought it was overrated as a problem. So he is not taking seriously that the cost of living.
I think cost of living is a core, core concern for people, core, and so he, I think, is telling himself that because that gives him permission to pursue a terror strategy, which at least in the short term, is almost certainly going to be inflationary.
So you know, you're right that. I mean, I don't think if he just did the J.
Six thing and you know, pardon them and then everything else people liked, like, no, that's not going to sink him. What I'm saying is that's indicative of a maximist strategy to overinterpret the mandate and indulge his worst instincts and worst excesses. And I think it's unlikely that over the long term it will ultimately be popular.
But gonna We're gonna see.
We uh, you know, he drops this shit coin trump coin, then the next day he drops a Milania yes shit coin.
Or maybe she dropped it.
We don't know yet, whatever, it doesn't matter. I mean he already like just the Milania dropping, the Milania coin totally undercut the trunk coin, so al right, it dropped like what instantly after the Milania thing drops, I saw this warning. I don't know, I have to check double check the numbers on this, but that the Millennia coin was already down like seventy percent from its peak or something, you know, Just for so people who aren't crypto people understand these meme coins.
They're literally they don't exist. I mean, all it.
Is is is hype. It is a pure ponzi scheme. At least with bitcoin, which I'm also not a big fan of, But at least with bitcoin there's a story about a new technology and using it as actual currency, you know, for transaction, cross national transactions and frictionless and not having to deal with government blah blah blah.
At least there's a story.
With these there's no even pretense that this adds anything valuable or productive to the economy. It's just a total greater fool cash grap meaning that you buy in with the hope, in the assumption that there will be people dumber and more gullible than you, who are going to come in after you and push the price up so that you can be one of the winners. But I mean, by and large, these are just massive upward transfers of wealth.
The Trump coin eighty percent is held by insiders. The Milania coin I saw eighty nine percent is held by a single wallet, So those people are guaranteed to come out on the positive net winner side. And then all of the suckers who not all, but many of the suckers who get pulled in after are the ones who will bear real cash losses from purchasing this entirely fake, invented, bullshit thing.
Yeah, and you know, I, generally, as people know, I think it's bad. We have talked how many times on the show Trump Hotel, Trump super Pack.
Saying he's going to challenge stop to steal. Yeah, Trump, Birch Trump.
This is another level.
Though, Chrystally, you're right, But guess what at a certain point, this guy's remember a conversation we had before the holiday, and I was talking about sports gambling and how no matter how much information I or others put out there about people getting ripped off about sports gambling that sports gambling becomes more popular in the United States, even though
you're literally losing if you're placing gambles. At a certain point, people want to be ripped off, and I just I'm stopping feeling bad.
They want they want the fantasy of this soft.
For the consequences. At this point, you guys don't care about this, then fine, like deal with it. You guys don't feel bad anymore.
It's just such naked I don't know.
And they want to end stage capitalism, where Like I said, look, there's tons of fakery in the stock market, right Like oftentimes stock prices are not really related to like the value of that company, and a lot of that is based on hype and.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
At least there's a story about some product or service that is being offered that is some sort of a benefit to humanity. This is just pure theft, cash grab, And I mean, to me, it's wild that it's legal.
It's wild that this is allowed at all.
That you can just like invent a fake thing and steal a bunch of people's money and is perfectly fine. But this is, I mean, is very similar to what the hawk Tua chick. No, it's the same shit that this lady did. And so now you know again anybody who doesn't have an issue with this on the Republican side, like I don't want to hear about your Hunter Biden corruption, James Biden corruption, Nancy Pelosi. Inside is that is pennies compared to what we're talking about here Trump. What I mean,
he massively inflated his own network. He is now predominantly his wealth is from this freaking crypto.
That's part of why it's absurd is that it's going to collapse. So everyone, yeah, oh Trump is worth twenty five billion. It's like, no, he's worth I don't know whatever the postcrash price will be, which will be like zero point one cent. So yes, I guess technically on paper he's worth twenty five billion or whatever the paper.
The bulk of his wealth is now in the stupid and trumpp coin.
I will also say a coin.
A lot of this is Don Junior and Eric too, who are actually the ones behind. I think it's called like world liberty financial.
I don't know what to say.
Like I said to you, I think people are enjoying getting ripped off at a certain point, if you, by the way, if you're invested in trumpoint, you're fucking idiot. All right, let's just say it, like, can we all be honest If you're going online and you're buying.
Scraped like, you're in moron.
And a lot of the people who do invest in this stuff do so specifically for speculative purposes, to try and get in on the idiots who will buy it. I just no longer I feel exhausted by the conversation now, frankly, just because it's so obvious to me now in the more socially libertarian, isolated America, this is un ironically what people want. And at a certain point, why try and
protect people from what they want? Like they want to gamble, they want to play the lottery, they want to buy trump coin because they think it's funny, or you know, or ticket to wealth. What are we supposed to do whenever, look, the argument against Trump has been made, the corruption argument has happened, It's been plastered all over the news. People don't give a shit. So it's like what I was telling you previously. They think that the Democratic Party is
so equally corrupt that their guy is corrupt. But he does this stuff that they like. I don't think it's a good thing, but that's what they think. They have no problem, and so it's a hypocrisy race to the bottom. And when they hear people who are Democrats Chris Murphy and I saw on others or criticizing this as like, dude, you know they're just gonna point to your photo with Alex Soros and they're gonna say you're equally corrupt. You're not even wrong absolutely on absolute terms. You know, what
what's Closi worth on paper? One hundred million something like that.
I mean getting some board seat or whatever. Nothing, nothing compared to an absolute terms. So just the thing I'm saying, soccer is first of all, number one. I don't think that like I can't just throw my hands up because I think these things are I think corruption is actually really important.
And you know they controls like.
You obviously too.
You did a whole long monologue about your problems with online gambling, and you may acknowledge like, okay, politically, like I'm in the minority here, but that didn't stop you from feeling like it was No. Of course, the argument, which is my physician here as well, but It's also like you know, again, if you don't have any smoke for Trump on don't tell me.
About Pelo season, so you don't care.
You actually don't care, and you are just a total partisan hack if you have no smoke for Trump on this. But the only corruption you see is on the Democratic side because in that hypocrisy race to the bottom, let me tell you, buddy, he just won because no one show me another instance where a politician has managed to grift tens of billions of dollars off their own primarily their own supporters, something that is just completely fake.
Again, really say, I mean he actually is able to realize any of these games, I would be I.
Would be able to realize some of them.
I would bet at best you can realize like maybe fifty million.
Like I'm not putting it down, but fifty.
Million, I've been saying amount of money.
Yeah, sure, but it's not twenty five million. Look, I'm not defending it.
What I'm just saying is it's very clear that the way that the way that this is all played out, like Dave Portenoy buying trump coin, pumping trump coin.
Right, people getting in on this.
I saw a lot of this during the whole robin hood, you know, gm thing, and now you really see it, and really what you see it in today is just gambling people, single game parlays and their willingness and want they want more gambling products.
They love to be ripped off.
It's it's the most remarkable thing in the world.
And I love the promise of the possibility of what it could they want to buy into. Like you know, fortune favors the brave, and there are of examples of random people who place the crypto bet at the right time that they're like, that could be me, that could be me, and lacking better in some instances, lacking better prospects or any other real pathway to that sort of like luxury lifestyle or even being able to just like
make it and have a normal middle class lifestyle. Yeah, they're gonna chase They're gonna be susceptible to chase it. I just I don't know how society survived, truly. I don't know how a society survives where it is illegal to just make up money with the explicit purpose of robbing people. I mean that's what this is, like, it is this, It is a pure Ponzi scheme at least the Ambay people like sell some shit. Right, this doesn't even have that, Like it doesn't even have the pretense
of that it's just invented. And this is like this is a core part of the economy.
Like I just know it's not a core part of the economy. Increasingly it's less than one percent of overall.
This is but this is like a central Also promise of the Trump administration is like moving more in the dry, let's have the bitcoin crypto reserve. I don't know, I just to me, it's such a sign. I mean, first of all, just the brezonness of Trump, right.
Yeah, but also and he is getting away with.
It, but I know he gets away with everything that what's gotten away with every cares of Trump and also just like pure societal decline and the end stage capitalism that it's hard for me to wrap my head around that it's like actually a real thing.
Oh, I mean, I mean, look, historically this is actually pretty pretty par for the course. You know, we talked a lot about yesterday the nineteen hundreds and the way that you had literal like robber barons and other people who would be in power both politically and then also similarly either involved in.
Big business or price discrimination, etc.
Just a natural extension of an extremely low trust society. That's what we're in. You know, if people are trying to parse the differences of like, oh.
But Pelosi and all those bad, Oh but.
Trump is bad, and when neither have any credibility on the issue, they again they just choose like the lesser of two evils.
I really do.
I saw someone tweetus, and I think this is right. I think Citizens United really was like the beginning of the end of any semblance of democracy because I do think, like you know, effectively, capitalism and democracy very difficult for the two to coexist, very difficult. If it's going to work, you're going to have to have some strict controls on money and politics. And not only do we not have strict control, we basically have no controls on money in
politics effectively effectively. And yeah, so I mean that's what you're going to end up with is a bunch of oligarchs who run the government and get what they want and you know, get taxpayer goodies and get the decisions on AI and crypto and whatever that's going to further enrich them and screw over working people because they won't have thebility to join labor unions or organize or fight back against the AI that's going to come and take their jobs. Like that is the natural endpoint of the
system that we set up. And that to your point, Soccer, that both parties have at this point like wholly embraced space.
But what I can't move away from is that's what people want. Majority of people are not majority. A huge portion of households who are Union voted for Trump. It's just like, okay, well, you know, don't complain. I don't know what's say like they like him. They don't care about that an l RB or whatever. They think it's like bureaucratic bullshit. And then Trump will just you know, it'll change everything up.
Okay.
It's not like the other option was really great, No, sure, but I mean Colin Harris was a terrible candidate, stood for nothing and barely lost.
I wouldn't say barely.
I mean point seven swing states, yes, point and a half, but he lost all swepens seven swing states, and importantly, even within that point and a half. The Democratic the demographic movement is deeply important for what the future of that looks like.
No doubt, and who's left in if.
It continues in that direction.
Yeah, yeah, nothing is you know, nothing thing in politics is permanent, et cetera, et cetera. But really what we are looking at is the new birth of like socially libertarian America. This is what it looks like like this is the snake oil salesman era of the early nineteen hundreds. And I think the trumpe again. If you want to change that, you have to think about why.
Is it so popular? I will never understand it.
Why people put their money on FanDuel and look, five ten dollars is not what we're all worried about here. We're talking about people who are gambling away their life savings or if ya, if you put your life savings in Trump. This is where the bootstrap part of me comes in. I don't know, you deserve it, I don't know what Like that's an IQ test, that's social Darwinianism at a certain point. And what we have got to is a society that venerates and wants this get rich
quick and all of this. Now there's a lot of reasons for that. A lot of people in power are responsible, but let's all so not let people off the hook. Sure, I like it, And I don't know what to say. In a country which loves weed and porn and gambling and you know, is constantly searching for get rick quick stuff, and they make fun of people like Dave Ramsey and others who tell them to save their money and put it in the freaking s and P.
Five hundred, and they're like, oh, that's.
Boomer shit, even though that's like the greatest return that you probably could have ever asked for compared to the idiot stuff that you're doing. I mean, like, people have a choice, their individual responsibility and wishes are a thing.
This is what they want.
Sure, yeah, I don't want to deny people individual agency for their decisions. But when you have a mass societal trend, then you have to ask what is contrued, what are the underlying economic, social, political conditions that are leading to that trend, because they don't just come out of nowhere.
And my contention would be that in an era of mass inequality the likes of which we have never seen in human history, where you know, the price of goods that are required in order to obtain like just a basic middle class life have been going up and up and up, for decades. And you know, also there's a lot of cultural trends. I mean, you do see like the valorization of the businessman who breaks the rules but gets away with it and gets rich and gets the girl and whatever.
Like there's the social cultural trends as well.
But yeah, that leads a lot of people to be very susceptible to mythology about you know, whether it's how Trump is going to save them and they put all their trust in him and that's part of you know, that parlays right into this crypto theft high scheme, or if it's trust in like this is this is my shot.
This is my lot of ticket to be able to make it to the good life.
I don't disagree necessarily, I just sometimes have to, like truly, I mean I think about this with lead, I think about this with porn.
I think about this with gambling. These are massively popular services.
I could show people all the social research in the world that will show this is so bad for you. If you live your life the opposite to this, you will be better off.
They don't want to do it. They like it.
It's like I can and look, we're not a dictatorship. You can't control people. And yes, there's a lot of people who what there's a lot of you know, economic reasons, et cetera and all that, but a lot of it is cultural, a lot of is familial.
And I think we're gone. I mean, I think we've long.
Passed moved what that even looks like in terms of what that everything will look like for a fix. I don't think Donald Trump is going to fix it. I don't even think it's literally possible. I think maybe he could usher in an age where we ask bigger questions in a society. Maybe more of you will be able to grapple with bigger questions and other stuff, and with media and the new environment. But you know, in the interim, there's just there's this is the you know, the this
is the celebration. And you know, it's just funny every time I talk about gambling or whatever, narc you're a nerd weed, same thing, porn.
You know, they start laughing when we talk about all these things.
Uh.
And and they they will fight to the death for their right to consume the things that are bad for them.
And you know, look at prohibition. Prohibition was a good idea.
Sorry, it's true, people were drunk and they were beating their wives, and the women are the ones who wanted it, and then they got it overturned because they just want to be drunk all the time. It's like, okay, you know, at a certain point, you just got to give people what they want.
It.
Also, we don't have to fight about prohibition today.
But you know, I mean it led to a massive increase in crime, and organized gang.
Was also the great suppression, but people conveniently leave that out of the story.
True.
Yeah, like in terms of what the where a lot of the crime and all that came. One of the main reasons they brought it back is needed a tax revenue. Ironically, Yes, yeah, it's if we think about it with all of the stuff that's super popular today and look at male culture, look at what young people, dudes and all that are looking at. I think there's a lot of economic reasons for it, but I also think it's a huge cultural
component to all of this. And uh, the more the more I see of how it is not only dominated but has become overwhelmingly popular, the less optimistic I am that anything is ever going to change.
Do you need anything?
Oh?
Yeah, if you guys could bring me some.
Water whenever, control room. Can we get water in here? Please?
But we can go ahead and a fight about Elon now if you like.
Oh, oh okay, all right, sure let me let me finish this coffee then.
So a huge controversy broke out yesterday over whether or not Elon Musk did a Nazi salute like a whole pile Hitler situation during one of his speeches.
The explanations will show you the video, let me before I give you.
The explanations, and Sager will give you his explanation. I want you guys to be able to see the video for yourselves, and then we can we can discuss.
And I just want to say thank you for making it happen.
Thank you.
So that's it.
So immediately people were like, that looks like a Nazi salute.
You don't think so, okay, if every time someone raises their hand like that, is it a Nazi salute?
It comes down to intention.
Yes, do we believe that Elon Musk is a literal Nazi who is intentionally zeg hiling, or do we have a high functioning autistic weirdo who, if you watch the full video, is spastically dancing like this on stage and unable to control all of his movements, and also did some weird like my heart is with you type gesture. Which of those two things do you think is more accurate? I don't think it takes a genius to figure this out. Well, so that's why the controversy go over. This is so
it's so twenty seventeen to me. Oh, it's like whenever this was supposed to be racist, do you remember that, and people were like, oh, this is right, Okay, go ahead and screen grab it.
Call me a racist. I don't fucking care. This stuff is stupid. It's twenty twenty five. We've been through all of this. I find this whole thing exhaustingly. I would be Are we saying Elon is a Nazi?
Uh?
Yeah?
But I mean I would be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt if he didn't. My Twitter timeline after he took over is like and I think it would agree filled with literal Nazis, who he occasionally, not that infrequently, makes a point of agreeing with, and you know, and elevating backs the AfD in German.
Game AFT is not Nazi is a legitimate pl So are you saying that all the people who voted for their Nazis in Germany, like I'm just.
Saying Sager in terms, that's no plausible deniability. That is the most real, that is the most reactionary party in Germany. Part of it, the wing of it is actually banned because of their extremism, tied to like video.
Nazi, because they have insane laws on the books.
So when you talk about like you said, okay, it comes down to intent, true. Yeah, what I'm offering is that there is enough evidence of this white South African who is very.
Comfortable and very.
Very comfortable obviously elevating Nazis on Twitter, very comfortable using a lot of the rhetoric about like birth rates and population decline and invasion et cetera, et cetera, and that you know, is a backer of the furthest right, most reactionary parties in Germany itself. That you know, look, the people who think that this was a Nazi salute are pretty much everybody left of center, and actual Nazis also were like, that's our guy.
I just can't believe.
I just can't believe that.
You know, I'm supposed to believe that the smartest man on the planet. This brilliant genius doesn't know what he's doing in this situation, Like come.
On, yeah, but don't we also know he's a fucking idiot at times, and just like anybody moving around does weird socially awkward stuff, like maybe a guy named Ewon who's at did like this for his entire life.
If he hadn't dabbled in Nazi ideology, I would be but.
I can't say talking about birth rates is Nazi idio.
And then the other thing, yea, why is a.
Guy who's a Nazi advocating for more unrestricted h one b Indian visas at his company? That's like pretty right, So that kind of conflicts a little bit with racialist ideology.
This just gets to the whole election.
Everybody's tried this shit before, Nazism, birth rates, if you care about immigration, it's been totally rejected at the ballot box. People who are predominantly black and Hispanic are the majority new entrance to the Trump coalition, specifically on behalf of this terms have meaning.
Elon is not look and people here.
No, I'm not some Elon fanboy. I hate community notes. Twitter has gotten way more annoying ever.
Since we used it.
The reason why I think Nazis get elevated on your Twitter feed is because the algorithm is designed to piss you off.
And you know what I get too on mine?
I get a bunch of shithead leftists who are constantstantly bitching about race or whatever because that's what makes me mad or trans bullshit.
That's That's what I'm trying to say.
So like saying the right wing reaction to your part AfD believes in less immigration for Germany, that's not Nazi. Talking about birth rates that's not Nazi. Saying that people who care about those issues are Nazi adjacent is the same thing as tagging people like you have your beliefs and saying it's communists ludicrous. That's not communism to believe in a fire department. Oh, that's collectivism, which is part of Karl Marx. Again, like these terms are clear, delineated.
People naturally understand that when we say Nazi is a very specific connotation meaning intent, belief policy. Do we really believe that Elon has that? There is no evidence for it unless you seek that interpretation. I just made about drawing any sort of like socialist or what any sort of democratic socialist belief and.
Saying you're full blown Marxist. I mean, you know that we don't talk like that here. Why does it apply to Nazism?
Well, I mean it sure looks like a Nazi salute and he's dabbled in Nazi ideology?
Well, what does that mean? Does Nazi?
I would be very much more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if not for that and the fact that he did it twice and the fact that a bunch of Nazis think that it was enough.
What is what does Nazi ideology?
Has Elon proposed saying that we have to care about birth rates and we want less immigration?
That's not Nazi pomic.
All this conversation about yeah, birthrate and civilization, cline and invasions and you know, racializing crime, all of these things are adjacent.
So but that's like saying social democratic socialism is Marxism's Is that adjacent to communism?
Obviously? Yeah, kind of.
I think this man knows what he's doing.
No, I don't.
I absolutely think this man knows what he's doing. And so, you know, look, do I think that people are going to care? Do I think it is? Does feel sort of like you know, twenty seventeen ish and like kind of cringe or whatever. Yeah, but guess but sometimes things that are popular are bad.
Sometimes things that are popular like.
Actually genuinely evil, And that is not going to stop me from speaking out against things that I think are wrong and extremism that I think has been welcomed back into political discourse. And yeah, I do think AfD is
an extremist party. I think his backing of that, I mean, his dabbling in the UK political situation, like he's going further than Nigel Farage even as willing to go in terms of, you know, backing Tommy Robinson who was an explicit racist islamophobe who was in prison for like you know, like horrifically smearing this teenage kid and lying about him.
And so yeah, I don't.
Think it's crazy to think that like this is a signal that he's throwing out there and give himself enough plausebul deniability. I think that is what's going on.
I just think it's I honestly think that's ridiculous, like to say that is an intentional zeg kile salute. I mean, by the way, has it been beneficial to the Trump Movement, or Elon Musk or Tesla or even his other companies. I mean, I think the guy is just spastic and weird.
Anybody I know who's ever met Elon No no, I was gonna say Roman salute if we all want to talk, right, as an Indian, Actually, you know, this is something that's always pissed me off, is that Hitler appropriated various different symbols that have now become conflated with Nazism. So, for example, many Hindus, a lot of white tourists.
When they go to India, they're.
Like, why are there so many Nazi swastikas over here? It's like, oh, it turns out as an ancient Hindu symbol. It's the other way, and the swastika is you know, something that has nothing to do with that. In India and India they are very able to say, yeah, actually it's ancient Hindu symbol and yes not to hugest. So we're not just gonna let people tart and will actually continue to paint it on temple floors, put it all over.
And we're just gonna continue with the Roman salute.
The quote unquote zeke Kile was literally appropriated from the ancient Roman salute, which is famous in any of these statues. Now, I am I gonna go around Zeghiland or Roman saluting?
No? Well.
Also, the Roman salute apparently was not a real thing.
It was like made up movies and then adopted by fascist that's right.
It was appropriated by fascist ideology in the early nineteen hundreds, specifically Mussolini, Oswald Mosley and others, because they were trying, specifically Mussolini as well, to try and bring back this idea of like Romanism and greatness to the Italian Empire, which also Hitler was greatly influenced by in the nineteen twenties.
But again with Elon, with all of this Nazism and calling someone a Nazi or even implying all this stuff around people is in my opinion, a huge reason why the cultural left has so much less credibility and the media today, Like you have to ask people very basic questions like I just said, do you think this person is a Nazi?
Like I just don't. Look, maybe you do.
I don't think that that's the case at all. And to get there you have to do what you know, all this mental gymnastics about adjacent and see, which I find just is annoying when right wingers say this about any social democratic thing and say that's literal stalinesque communists.
I would say the same thing.
I think I think he and I think Trump are like I think this administration is a fascist administration. Like we've had, I mean, we've had this debate before. But if you look at the definition, and especially with the merging of you know, the richest man in the world and the business with the government and you know, I mean, we have a raft of executive orders that are enlisting the military in draconian border policies like you know, not
to be whatever. But like you said, words do have meaning, and if you look through the definition, yeah, I think I think it fits. I think that I do think that this is a fascist administration that at its core that is in power. I think Elon is obviously a key part of that.
So that's what I would say.
I mean, I just think this will go on forever. But I mean again, it's like it's deeply within the American context, which I don't think has always been core.
I mean fascist.
The American context is Florida with fascism in the paw so I don't.
It's not Americas as.
Long as it's being qualified, like that's fine, But it's like again, like terms I think are important, and I
also think they should be reserved for extraordinary things. So if we had Reichstag fires, false flags, militarization, end of government, and then the fusing of the economy and the state, then sure, I'll talk about fascism until that, as long as there's a court system and what Congress, which can frequently and often does change, and a democratic populace it frequently changes its mind and has the ability.
To have pushback, et cetera.
Like to say they're living in fascist countries frankly insane. I mean, you can say that there's fascist tendencies or would want to be you know, fine, I mean think all of those are okay, but.
I think it would want to be.
And you know, this is what I've expressed for a while that I think this administration, because there are no real checks left, because there are no real guardrails left, will be able to more fully exercise those tendencies this time around. And you know, I think there's already some significant signs of that.
Yeah.
I mean, like again, if we're using the idea of executive power or use.
To the military or whatever.
If that's always fascist, then that erases the meaning. No, but if that's the tendency, then it erases the meaning of that, and then that means then that FDR, who often did many of the same things that Trump is currently doing, actually far more in terms of his executive power.
Fascism is explicitly right wing.
No, not necessarily, No, he started out as.
A social definition of fascism. Any basic definition that you would look up online with just one of the descriptors.
Would be far right.
Well, it's difficult, and that's more because of a connotative with the Hitlerism. If we actually look and study like the history of fascism with Italy, a lot of it started out as is left wing that got fused with nationalism. Kind of beside, the point issue is not about right wing per se.
It's we're talking about tendencies.
Like the reason why you're using the term is because of actions like military or executive order. Those are standard executive powers under the American imperial presidency.
Well again.
To the stenship, which is part of the constitution, is not a standard.
Executive Okay, But if it gets struck invoking.
The Foreign Enemies Act? Is that what it's called foreign?
Yeah, the Alien Enemies Act, which is what was used to justify Japanese internment and has never been used in this context. Like, that's not an ordinary executive order. So you know, I mean these and and again partly this will play on in terms of how far to Strump want to go because if some of these things do get struck down by the Supreme Court, and which is no guarantee, because the Supreme Court is more or less on his side at this point, and he's like, I don't care, I'm doing it anyway.
I don't you think that that's a possible buility he.
Does that, then that would be Ah, do I think it's a possibility honestly?
No, especially on birthday because.
When we talked about earlier, you said you thought it.
Was possible, no the birthright students. I said, yeah, anything is possible. But like, do I think that that's the most likely outcome?
Absolutely not.
No, I mean there's no evidence of that previously. Now you know this, I mean even the whole Andrew Jackson thing, Like we really think that's gonna fly like today, So look, we're going to base it back, and this I have
no idea. Also the political utility of this, because Nazism itself, I think is commonly understood to mean what I think it means, and so when the term is misappropriated and applied as it was to Donald Trump and then rejected at the ballot box, it causes a loss of credibility in media, and also really make also makes it more difficult if you want to criticize actual Nazis about a
lot of this stuff. So conflation makes it more difficult to have nuance or even interesting conversation around any of these issues. And I really think this is the democratic socialist communist argument is the perfect one. Do you know how many people called FDR communists back in his time? Do I think he's a communist?
No?
But the reason why was because any sort of social government or any of that, even if it's supported.
By the people. Let me ask you this.
So Trump calls people like Kamala Harrison whatever communists all the time, Yeah, all the time?
How many times? I say you don't?
But do you think do you think that has caused him a loss of credibility? Do you think that that's to diminish his standing?
Blah blah blah.
That's a good question.
Actually, I mean, honestly, don't you think kind of has with a lot of people, because we've talked a lot about.
This in the fact to work for him pretty well, to be honest with you, No, but.
We've talked in the past how they used to say that about Joe Biden, and most people didn't believe Joe Biden.
I'm pretty sure he called Kamala a fascist and a communist.
Don't know, and called Republicans always called Democrats communists.
And that's why I think it is like there's so much smoke for people being like Trump's a fascist and here's why, and here's the reasons.
But when he.
Does it, and when Republicans constantly do it all the time, it's like, yeah, that's fine, it doesn't cost their cause a loss of credit.
Right, Like that doesn't mean you should play the same game.
Now I'm not the same game because when I like, it's like the idea that Kamala Harris as a communist is so preposterous.
The like, if you look.
At the definition of fascism, you know, far right, ultranationalist, militaristic off in a ligne directly, like, you know, co opting large parts of big business.
I think there's a pretty reasonable case to be made. One may disagree, and you are fair.
It's perfectly fine for you to disagree, and we've had this disagreement before.
It's cetera, et cetera.
But I do feel the way you do of like well wards top meaning, and this seems to fit the you know, fit to a te pretty close.
But I made an awkward movement. I mean, that's where I'm just looking.
An awkward movement.
Part of the reason why I feel and hate this whole conversation is just so fucking stupid in my opinion, Like, look, at the end of the day, I don't think most people think Elan is a Nazi, So you know, like what are we doing here. We're analyzing the movement of Elon because it's like an autistic, spastic weird though, Like if an autistic kid did that at a celebration for a school, what do you think we would all think?
We're like, oh, you know.
It's like its ablest. I'm being ableist right.
Now, I guess, yeah, good question, that's that's perfect. We should Elon is neurodiversion that's what all of you people are not.
I'm sorry his.
Neurodivergence has his neurodiversence is not being appropriately applied to the context within all of this.
I just well, the ADL agree, Why it's.
So important, Well, that's where the ADL is currying favor with power.
Okay, that's a different story the ADL.
Yeah, go ahead and put the ADL thing up, because at least then we can end by both shitting on the ADL. They you know, this is the group that if you do a rally chant that they don't like, it's a hate crime. If you wear a cafia, it's an anti Semitic attack. I mean, we showed you, showed you the move. Soger disagrees. It does look many people are saying though it does look like sighail. It does look like it. But the ADL no smoke for Elon. Of course, this is a delicate moment. It's a new day,
so many are on edge. Politics are inflamed, and social media only adds the anxiety. It seems that Elon Musk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute. But again, we appreciate that people are on edge in this moment. All sides should give one another a bit of grace, perhaps even the benefit of doubt, and take a breath. This is a new beginning. Let's hope for healing and worked or unity in the months and years ahead. I mean curring favor with power number one.
Number two, I mean Elon supports the Israeli genocide and kaza and that's probably their primary goal and concern. So if you're good on that, then you can do whatever else else you know you want, And you're pretty much going to be good to go with regard to the ADL.
No one can accuse me hypocrisy on the ADL issue.
Ironically, if you recall, Elon was heavily against the ADL
back in the day. But the ADL wants to keep curry themselves up with power with the Trump administration with Elon, I think they correc see this as like this, you know, kind of like Twitter type controversy media thing that doesn't have any actual influence or whatever, and they want to stay cozied up like Miriam Aidelson is one of their biggest donors, right, and they want access and continued ability to influence us censorship and power, and so within all
of this context it makes perfect sense. And yes, I agree they're total hypocrites because in the past this is exactly the type of thing that they would have latched onto and they have frequently derided.
In Well, if it was a college kid doing the same thing, you know, at a you know, college kid with aspergers doing the same thing, I agree with that at a pro That's why I think both are bad.
They would you know, I mean, there's plenty of screen grabs Crystal of people in Kefia's doing Zhile's Like should we take them seriously or do I correctly see? Like, Okay, yeah, there's some real anti Semites who are probably doing this. The vast majority of people who I know who are pro pal sign are not anti Semitic. You're just horrified by the action. I think the same thing with Elon.
That's what I'm trying to say. I'm giving people a benefit of the doubt here, like and not even benefit of the doubt, but just like exparsing the overall thing and then trying to cast it correctly for what the core motivation is, Like, are this the core motivation for Donald Trump?
Every day?
When it gets up to be a fascist, hitlarian dictator, Like no, is this core motivation for the people who support Elon or even Elon himself. Elon, all he cares about is making more money. That's not fascist, you know. If anything, it's as American tale, as old as time is to try and to curry favor with the incoming administration. So anyway, I just I really don't think that this
does any service to good discourse to politics. And I think most people who see this stuff rightfully think it's just so stupid bullshit, and I think it loses a lot of credibility honestly, people like the media CNN and others like Pushing trying to turn this into a thing like it just feels exactly like so many of those Trump controversies which Push pushed actively pushed a lot of people away from me.
You know, I would have agreed with obviously.
I do think he knew what he was doing here, So we'll put that to aid the side. I actually would have maybe agreed with that point previously. But then I'm like, well, the Republican Trump like they do that shit all the time. Call every fascist, send me the people like communists, blah, blah blah, and.
Doesn't seem to have hurt them too much.
He's he said way more like extreme insane things about Kamala Harris than she ever said about him and her like when she made the case he was a fascist, which by the way, is not just something I said, It's something that people like Mark Milly, who served with him also said. The reason the reason, Yeah, well, at least he was there to be like, let's not shoot protesters in the likes, which is also a behavior I
believe of a you know, a fascist inclined individual. But in any case, that was the context of which that came up.
And Trump has like called her every name in the book. So the idea that like, oh, you were too.
Mean to him and that's why you didn't have that, I just don't buy it.
I don't buy it. I just don't think that that's the lesson of this election.
When the guy who was the most obnoxious and the meanest and the most divisive and the most playing to this like tribal in group out group mentality, that's the guy that won. So I'm just not you know, I'm not as persuaded by that point as I perhaps would have once been.
I don't think that's a bad point.
I think the reason why it is hypocritical fundamentally is that right wing culture kind of itself is basically right wing culture, and criticism of the mainstream is still seen as insurgent, and thus is one where paying the price and the you know, the checking action like what you're talking about is not one which is going to land similarly with that audience, as opposed to when Trump says so and so is a communist. And I mean, look, I'm how many times have I said here before. I
think calling people communists is stupid. I think calling Bernie a communist and all that is foolish. He should actually debate these things on their merits and actually dive into them, and that you know, if we stoop to the oh this is Marxist, oh this is socialist stuff, you actually lose any ability to win over somebody who was a Bernie Sanders order. But you know what, maybe you're right because Trump called Kamma and all of them communists and he wanted tell me.
And he called her a fascists.
Yeah he I mean, all all of these things were said. So I think it matters a lot about Listen, I mean Trump is also able to get away with things that people other people aren't. Yes, true, But the thing Derek Thompson when we had him on said about how it wrote in his piece about how Trump really capitalized on the social media all tribe no village dynamic where everything is about just like tribal in group out group signaling.
And so it wasn't that he won in spite of calling Kamala a communist and a fascist and an enemy of.
The people or whatever. It's in part because of that.
I think that that is I think that's an important insight. It's a bad insight, like it's bad for politics and it's bad for the future, et cetera. But I you know, I don't think that he's necessarily wrong about that.
That he knows how.
Politics is inherently divisive, and this is something Democrats are stupid and run away from, right they are so afraid of conflict and whatever or like, can't make a decision, blah blah blah. Trump sees this as a divisive conflict and he is going to draw the lines of that divide and aggressively so and unrelentingly so. And so that's why because he is the person who shaped that divide and drew the line and enforced it in the most aggressive,
vigorous way you possibly could. He's the victor and so so yeah, I think you know that doesn't mean that, like it was the best argument for Hi for Kamla to make about like fascism or whatever. But I think that central insight of like, you have to have a device of politics, you have to draw the divide in a way that is politically beneficial to you. I think Trump understands that. Nooid JOm Croston.
I let's end it on that, because I totally agree.
With that, Okay, r I go, I just I think evidence has shown us the Nazi one doesn't really work. You got to find something else. You got to find something that hits with people. Maybe it will hit with people, people could start actually turning against it, but I'm somewhat doubtful personally at this point, especially in this shitcoin illegal gam or pro gambling era. Anyways, that's a way longer conversation, Chris, So I enjoyed doing the stream. How long we've been
going for two hours and twenty minutes. Yeah, I think that's pretty good.
Guys like it. Thank you very much.
You can sign up Breaking Points Premium subscriber at breakingpoints dot com. Maybe we'll do this something like this and again in the wild do I mean it's free wheeling. Like you got to ask about the Aussie Open thing. I was like, you know, it was just fun and then here you know, we're not worried about time and putting the show out or whatever.
True, I'm really.
Actually enjoying it.
We can just talk as much as we want. And honestly, you know, I was watching some of the live numbers. It didn't really go down that much. We're talking for twenty or thirty minutes.
So I was like, hey, maybe it works.
Yeah, maybe I do it like once a week.
Yeah, well that's a lot. Okay, maybe maybe we'll talk.
We have some figure on. Yeah, it's a totally different business model too. I have to think about all those things. But anyway, it was fun. Thank you guys. Interesting week and Counterpoints that be here for you tomorrow. Will be back for you Thursday, so we'll see you then.