Appoche Production. Welcome to another episode of Brave Always, the CEO series. This series, we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Happy people create happy businesses.
True emotionally intelligent leadership.
I've picked up vomit once on our about our fourth flight and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him, I can do it Now.
We will be joined by culture and leadership experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. Welcome to another episode of Brave Always. Today, I am thrilled to be joined by the CEO of the Australian Grand Prix Corporation, Travis Alt. Travis has had nearly thirty years at the helm of some of Australia's largest sporting institutions during some of the most turbulent times, a sporting fanatic and a hugely well
respected leader for his authenticity and energy. I am pretty pumped to have you on here today, so welcome Travis.
Thanks for having memro. I'm looking forward to it.
Travis. In my experience interviewing people of your professional calub there's this lovely little link which often is like humble beginnings. I don't know. That's what I've experienced, that sort of shakes how they ended up leading later in life. Now I know you were born in Tatura, Victoria, small rural town. I think it's like less than five thousand people. When I googled what's Tatura famous for a little pub appeared. I'm assuming it's more than that. Is it? This famous little pub is there?
It's got three pubs. It's had three thousand, six hundred people for as long as I'm sort of know, which means I don't count very often. They're very humble beginning. It's very fortunate. But I grew up in a small town, was raised. You know, they say it takes a village. I was raised by the Tatura community, very grounded upbringing, very fortunate. I never sort of missed any opportunities or without anything. But my parents are still into Tura. Yeah
I get back there. Yeah. It was a very sporting, very outdoor upbringing, and there's a lot of that still in May now. It's particularly in my leadership.
Did you always envisage leaving like? Was it I'm never going to stay here?
Like?
Did you have grand plans quite young to say I want to get out of here and get to the big smoke.
Maybe, I mean I my definition of the big smoke when I was into Tura was some smaller than Melbourne. No one felt really big when I was a child, and so I actually went to university in Bendigo. Three thousand people to a sixty or seventy thousand people was a much more palatable step than going straight to Melbourne. And so I went to the University at Latrobe in Bendigo allowed me to come back on weekends and play sport,
and it was nice stepping stone for them. What was the big smoke some years after that?
Yeah, right, I mean I feel for me in particular. Always having a strong male role model when you're younger is a big part of helping people shape how they grow up. Who was yours? Was that your dad? Was it somebody else in the community. What did they teach you?
Certainly my father to some degree, he taught me a lot about hard work, hard work and being relationship focused. I've got an older brother three years older than me. He probably paved the way for me and I still talked very regularly and look up to him and what he does in his career, and so probably him, as much as anyone, is sort of the person that's shaped
me very early on. You always want to be like your older brother, and I tookaly wanted to be that, but also that the local football club, local cricket club. As I was sort of coming through the ranks, you'd always have people go to take you under their arm. And developed a lot of friendships and great memories through playing football. But I was never going to create a career through playing sport right And in fact, I never really had ambitions of working in sport. It just wasn't
a natural pathway that was in front of me. I saw of fell into it, which I'm sure we'll get to.
Yeah, yeah, well, I was going to say, and then you decided to become an accountant. I actually find it really funny. There's so many CEOs of interview who always sat as accountants, and so I'm trying to figure out is that like you just had a passion for numbers, or is this like some long term strategy that you know you're going to end it at the top and you need to start off as an accountant.
I think it's the thing you do when you don't know what you want to do is that it was for me. I didn't really know what I wanted to do post doing Year twelve or post university. So I thought having a really good grounding in finance was going to be important and it would open up more opportunities. And then I knew were available at the time, and so I went off and did a Bachelor of Business at the Trophy Bendigo and it's always been a good grounding.
I went and worked in a chartered accounting firm. That was my first opportunity. I was there for three or four years and you love it, I did. I love it. I think it was a really good background. I worked in audit and so the beauty of or it was, yes fully faces a bit. The beauty of order for me was that you get exposed a whole lot of different businesses and so you work on different things all the time. And that's how I got my first role at the Essiden football Club. I was their author. Yeah,
so I was really fortunate. I worked from the large charter of the canning firms in Melbourne. I've got sent to London for a while to their sister firm for someone from Tatura that was a big move and it was a great experience. Came back and you got approached to join the Essendon Football Club and so I thought why not? And that's how I ended up in sport. So when people say, hey, did you get in sport? Tell me the pathway to get in the sport. I'm not the person to talk to you in terms of
how I got into sport. I sort of fell into it and there have been there ever since.
Yeah, right, okay, there you go. You did play a number of key roles during your tenure at the NFL. From COO I think it was an incident as well, and then obviously the inaugural CEO at the Gold Coast Suns to CFO and GM at d AFL. So now that you've left the world of football, looking back, what did it teach you about great leadership?
Lots? I think sport is a wonderful environment to learn about leadership, learn about team, learn about social license, about the role that you play that exists beyond what you directly think your day to day job is. And so if you think about from a working in clubs is quite different than working at the AFL. From a helper perspective, working at both clubs taught me a lot, probably maybe
in some cases different things because of my role. My first sort of foray into AFL was Esthmate Football Club, very successful, big club. You get to see athletes coming together as a team and achieving incredible things and some of the things that sit within that leadership. We had Kevin Sheedy as our coach for twenty five years, incredibly successful coach, and I learned a whole lot from how he went about leading the team. It's the best example
you'll get a high performance, high performance environment. These guys are trying to get better every day, they're getting marked publicly, there's a big spotlight on them. So from an understanding how teamwork works, the importance of culture, that was really important. So my transition was I was at the Essenmon Football Club for eleven years. I had been approached to be a successor to the CEO, Peter Jackson, who's been there
for some time. I thought, given that I'd sort of fallen into the role that I was in, that I should probably go through a process somewhere to hone my interview skills. The role came up to be the CEO of the Gold Coast Suns, and I thought, I'll jump into that process. It would just be good experience for me.
I had no really intention of moving too Queensland, but I thought, it'll just make me think a little bit about who I am, I'm good at when I need to get better at what skills I have, And it did. I went from a long list to over a period of time, a pretty short list. And as I've got down to that short list, it's sort of dawned on me that what of incredible experiences would be to really step outside my comfort zone? Strange It would be much
easier probably stay at the Essident Football Club. There's one hundred years of history, there's a whole framework that you operate within, there's a big supporter base. But I decided towards the end of the interview process for the Gold Coast Suns that I really wanted the job. Sort of built this plan that I thought that it would be exciting to execute. It would completely take me out of
my comfort zone. I hadn't been a CEO before, so not only would I be a CEO, but in a new organization, in a new in an area that hadn't had it so forty ten before. And so I tell us a bit about me, probably that I like to step out of white culport zone.
And getting that vibe.
It's probably where I learned best and perform best. And so I was fortunate enough to get the role. And so Gold Coast was a bit more about learning about me, learning about leadership in a setting where I have a truly blank canvas. And so that was a wonderful experience of sort of five or six years of setting up the Gold Coast sons.
So like, I have to ask this because I mean, one, I think that's great in terms of listeners, like go for interviews that you don't even think you're going to get as part of the experience. I mean, obviously you don't know what's going to happen. A lot of people don't do that right. They want to be completely lined up and ready for the job. Okay, we've got to talk about this thing. Obviously I read online you like being nervous or you enjoy it, which comes with this.
You know you love putting yourself at eat comfort zone. From a neurological perspective, the brain doesn't often like that naturally, right in at the anytime things are different from familiarity, the brain goes ear reject that. So how have you hacked this? It's just like you just were born with an ability to go anything that feels different, uncomfortable, challenging, I gravitate towards or is this something that you go through with some inner narrative that makes you do this?
Because it's actually not that common.
Now, I've asked myself the same question, because it's not always you know, sometimes I put myself in a positions I want to do. It is and Gold Coast was an example of that. I'm not sure why that is the case. I do know though, that I thrive in those environments. Okay, I thrive in an environment where there is uncertainty, where I feel like I'm being stretched. That was the best example of that Gold Coast. It also occurred when I left the AFL. Yes, I stayed in sport,
but I knew not much about the sport. So I always look for those opportunities and I think it's satisfying, it's invigorating. It really tests me, but I enjoy it.
So where do self doubt play in your life? Travis? Then, seriously, at some point you could have gone as it's actually a very good idea. Am I going to fail? What are people going to think?
Yeah? It exists in my life, Absolutely it does. I'm a big believer in reflecting. Okay, not in any great formal way, but you know, often when I make a big decision, or I need to make a big decision, I often want to spend a bit of time just reflect on how when about that decision I made? What I do it differently when I was at the Goldco Suns, we knew there was going to be a tough start.
The way when I'm building the team is that weren't going to win very often early on, hopefully built some momentum, and so I remember early days we'd have a staff maning every Monday and we'd have a difficult game on the weekend and get it in front of the staff. And so we are exactly where we need to be, where exactly where thought we'd be. We've got all LEAs steps in place, but know what we're doing, It'll be fine. Because I needed them to believe where we are going.
I remember ginning in my car driving home, thinking, Holy help, are we where we need to be right now? Am I doing this the right way? What could I do differently and better. But I needed to project that self confidence. You need to be real and authentic about where we are. But also your role as a leader is to make sure that people have confidence and where we're going. And so there's no doubt sometimes sort of behind the wall a but you sit back and question yourself. I actually
think that's quite healthy. I'm actually comfortable that I don't have self doubted accept that it paralyzes me, but I certainly have self doubt that keeps my feet on the ground because when you're leading in sport is a lot
of scrutiny. There's sort of low barriers to entry for people to provide their opinions about how they think you're going with your role, and so if you wanted to jump online in any important time, particularly in my role at the AFL, I had a lot of people telling me how to do my job, although I haven't done
a very good job. And so there's a real balance between having some people around you that you rely on to give you feedback, being able to do that yourself, look yourself in the mirror and have pretty honest conversation with how you're going, but not then sort of extending that to listen to every voice that's coming through just his noise, because then you will start to paralyze yourself. And that's been the sort of learning for me over a long period of time.
Yeah, amazing, there's a bit of ted Lasso in there around the positivity. I remember talking to a friend of yours who was part of their Goldkos Sons and he would lose it every time you guys would lose a game like freak Out, And I was thinking, well, in your position, like did you sit there on Saturday nights and Friday night's going, oh God, can't lose this one?
You have those, I mean, that's sport. Being a leader in sport in some ways, your job is to keep things calm's highest people think they are, the lows is not as low as they are, and to have a consistency in terms of how you're leading that isn't necessarily attached to how you went on the weekend. And so I think one of the things I've developed over twenty five plus years of working in sport is the ability to sort of remain calm when everything else around yous areen.
But I love that. So you mentioned before about authenticity, So I wanted to touch on that because in my Brave model of leadership, the A is authenticity, which for me I defined it as I'm going to choose the opportunity to connect over the chance of rejection. Right, and you being in such a high profile public role, there has to be some challenges with being completely authentic at times, so saying exactly what you want to say, showing your emotions.
Do you feel that there are times where you were like, I'm not being as authentic as I want to because I can't.
There's a difference between not being authentic as opposed to not being able to share all the information you might want to share. So I'd like to say that I would be authentic pretty much all the time, and sometimes that is by saying that, actually, sorry, I can't answer
that question. I can't share that information. And so it's a really good question in the sense that you're always a balance between being really honest with people without being able to telling everything they want to know because people's livelihoods are involved, or there's sensitive information that you can't share at that point in time. That happens a lot,
particularly in my AFL role. But if you can stand up in the most difficult times and share that information, whether it's with your staff or whether it's with the media, to be able to say, hey, I know that you would like to help this information. Some of it I have something that I don't Some of the stuff I have I can't share with you. I'd found over time that that builds a bit of trust that tends to be accepted in the context of sort of authenticity.
You might have been the first one to say that. I think it's a very big lesson, and authenticity is sometimes saying actually can't give you that information, versus pretending or going down some other pathway. I think that's when people get it wrong. You can say I don't know or I can't tell you. There's a great takeaway for people. So obviously, over this entire period of career, can you think of one particular time where you felt really exposed and vulnerable.
Yeah. I think my experience of leading to Gold Coast SUMS was a bit like that, because you're building everything with scratched But probably the better example is during COVID, during the pandemic, when my role at the AFL was running finance, running broadcasting, running fixturing, and I've seen the club relationships, which puts you right in the center for better or worse of all the issues will trying to solve during COVID. So I just felt a huge sense
of responsibility. Initially, that's responsibility was to keep the game going, to make sure that we could pay our people and the clubs could pay their players and staff, that we could continue playing week in week out. That responsibility quickly shifted from that to a sense of responsibility because people were looking at football and other forms of sport for a sense of hope because I were locked in the homes all day and so the ability to at the end of a day turn the television on and watch
their team play was something more than just that. And I was getting that feedback pretty early on during the pandemic that please keep the game going because it's the one thing that is a bit of a showing light for us at the moment. And I felt that sense of respon's ability before. And so that was probably the example where it's like I've got a job to do here. That is probably one of more important jobs that I've ever done in my career.
In terms of dealing with that. Was the certain things you did in your life to help you manage that stress.
I think we'd all give examples of what we did during the pandemic that didn't didn't work for me is very obvious, but it worked out pretty quickly that you know. The things that put me in a position to lead well is I need sleep, We've got to eat well, I need exercise. And so a couple of those got
taken away from me really quickly during the pandemic. Were working pretty silly hours, like a lot of people were exercised, were difficult, and so I put myself in a hole pretty quickly, and I needed to then try and at least get two of those back together again and put myself in a position where I can make myself available to lead. That was sort of the key pillar is
how do I get myself right first? Because we were asking a lot about each other during those times, and there was a lot of stress, and then it became a bit about team. There was a small group of us who realized on each other. There was displays of
vulnerability during COVID that I've not seen before. We really got into each other's lives, were in lounge rooms every day on teams goals, and we got to see first hand the impact of the pandemic on people's personal lives, and so I have a sense of connection with maybe half a dozen people through that period that is much deeper than you would normally have in any normal work setting that still exists today. You know, there's times that
I felt really vulnerable. There's times also when I was probably my st rewarding part of my career.
So after twenty five years and leadership roles, you obviously had your site set on the top job at the AFL, and I think a lot of people had bets on you getting that role, and I think it was pretty hard. Youous twelve month recruitment process that you went through, and then obviously you did miss out on the role. So resilience for me is key when it comes to great leadership. You know, obviously bouncing back is one thing, but also
preparing yourself for the obstacles. So I'm interested to know how did you prepare for a twelve month recruitment process and all that came with, And then I guess how did you process the disappointment of it not happening and bounce back from that.
Yeah, I don't think I did prepare for a twelve month that's probably more than that if you're going to put yourself in a process to be the CEO of the AFL, and you know it's going to come with some scrutiny, and scrutiny wasn't something that was foreign to me. I've worked in footy for twenty years and so I knew a lot about being judged publicly on a regular basis, and I had a tight group around me that would
support me through that. I probably thought, there's a three or four month process coming up, but I'm going to come into some scrutiny. I just need to focus on what I can control. But then it became much longer. I think one of my strengths because of the roles that I've had, is I'm quite resilient. I can generally decipher between what's real and what's noise and the voices that I care about. What starts to impact you is
when others close to you are impacted. And so when you start to find and what got a bit more difficult towards the end of it is you'd find that you know, whether it's your family, close friends, you could see that they were probably out of care for me. But starting to be impacted by starting to engage in what was going on social media, and that was the time I was like, oh, this is a bit bigger than me, and I just need to be careful of what I'm putting others through. It was difficult because I
hadn't really invested in getting the role. You have to do if you'ren apply for all that, you have to really invest in as a long process. I'd enjoyed my time at the AFL and credible twenty five years in the AFL. I wouldn't change one thing, but you saw it going knowing that you know, as they guarantees. So when I found out I didn't get it, I quickly dusted myself off. The guy got the role, Andrew Dillon. He's a post friend of mine. You wouldn't find a better person. I
was equally happy for Andrew to get that role. Spend there for a long time and you'll do a really good job. And so up against tough competition, you got to accept that. The question for me was sort of what now. That was a good question because I had convinced myself I wanted to sort step into that old leadership role again. One thing about a twelve month process. Is you spend a lot of time thinking about what you bring to the table, what you love, what's your
environments worked for you. I was pretty sure coming out of that process that I wanted to step back into a CEO role.
Yeah right, okay.
And I could have stayed in the a fil industry. I could have stayed int the AFL, could have went back to running a club. Those opportunities are putting in front of me. And then the opportunity to become the CEO of the Australian Pre Corporation came up. In fact, it came up about a month or two before the af process. And I had said to the transparent, I had said to the recruiter, I am twelve or fourteen months into a process here. I'm not going to hedge
my bets now. So as much as running the strain Gold pre is a very attractive proposition, thank you, but no thank you, because I don't want to hedge my bets. I'm a sort of all in guy and I'm all here now. I didn't get the role. I got a phone call from the recruiter. It become very public quickly till after day or two I've got a phone call to say, hey, bad news for you, good news for us. We want you back in the process. The process hadn't been completed, and so I jumped in at the back
end of this role. And it's another example stepping out of my comfort zone. It would have been much easier for me to stay in the AFL industry, but this was a different role and had opened up other opportunities and it tested be a game. It put me in.
And also, I think exactly what happened to you in the process for the Goldcrows Sons, the process and going through the interview helped you realize, actually, I do want to be a CEO, and I can't then go back into something that's different. I have to ask, you know, we all know you can't have it all supposedly, what's the you have to pay for success?
It's a really good question. I think sport demands a lot of you, and so if you're in a leading sport, it's not a nine to five thing. It's sort of your life. I know that, particularly early on in my careers when children were growing up, I wasn't there from as much as I would like either, whether I was physically there or not. I think when you are in sport,
you're surrounded by it all the time. There's an expectation you're on all the time, and so I think if you had your time again, I think as more mature person now I might do that a bit differently. I don't give a chance to do that, but that's something I thought about that it owns a lot of you, and I gave it a lot back, and you need to if you're to be successful.
I want to talk to a quickly that empathy, which I think is like a superpower quite frankly, and probably the one thing most leaders struggle the most, and kind of fully understanding that ability to hold space for people's emotions and not necessarily fixing it. It's often widely known that males can struggle with expressing their emotions more than women. How did you find that in the AFL. Is there a culture of suck it up, don't talk about it?
What did you see shift over twenty five years in that space?
Yeah, go back a step. That's certainly how I was raised a boy growing up in the country, work hard, suck it up with any issues, toughen up a bit, and so I certainly started that way, and I've seen things change during my time at the AFL incredibly in terms of the expectations around being vulnerable or the accepted sorry. The diversity of workforces now in all forms has changed things. When I reflect back on my career, I think early
on in my leadership journey, I was incredibly judgmental. I had views of things that this is how things needed to be and it wasn't really The one thing that changed that is my daughter has a disability, which was born with a disability, and so I had this sort of moment where it's like, it's not actually like black and white, and it gave me a totally different perspective
on the world. And so going from someone who's judgmental and you know, look for the people that look a bit more like me and lead a bit more like me, to look for the person in the corner who's not necessarily engagement has something to offer. And so I would see more possibility and opportunity in people that I did previously. And so it wasn't directly shaped by my career, was
more shaped by my personal experience. And I think empathy now notwithstanding sort of where I came from, is probably one of my strengths, and sometimes it's a strength overplayed. I get feedback sometimes that, you know, when I'm making really tough people decisions, I just want to give someone a chance. I really do. I want to try and see if we can find a way to get the
best of them. Yeah, and sometimes it doesn't work. But I do know when it doesn't work, and I have to have those conversations that I don't enjoy that I know that I've given them every chance, and that just comes from a deeper place that's been my chow.
I love that. That's beautiful. Yeah, and you're right, I'm sure. Yeah, having experienced those challenges that you daughter would have gone through, you'd have a whole different perspective, all right. So in twenty twenty three points the CEO role of Australian Grand Prix amazing. So while still in sport, a completely different ball game. I actually started watching the Netflix for me and I ended up becoming obsessed with it, like it's
really fascinating to me, like in my head. And I think it's because my boys were watching it and it was a bit like, oh, this is going to be cars going around a circuit to be honest, and then you start watching it and you're just like, this is a whole nother thing, Like it's a massive teams thought, like it couldn't get more like down to the pet changes. It's competitive, like insane competitive. I mean, we've watched Ricardo
and all this kind of stuff happened. Like if you're not top of the game, you're out, Like it's just insane. You said first of all that you weren't particularly like huge into motorsport. I didn't know a ton about it. So what have you learned in this space of time that you've been here over twelve months?
And when it comes to the sport, like you, I was introduced to the sport with any depth anyway through Drivers Survive. I live near the circuit and so we've been quite a number of times. Yeah, but it was actually my wife who would say to me, Hey, when you finishing work, this next episode of Drive Survives out and watch what's happened to you. And so that's how I had some knowledge of F one and there working
is of F one. But when I stepped into the role, one of the things I'm really clear about through my interview process and when I first spoke to my team is I don't know much about motorsport. I don't know much about F one. I know a little bit about how sport works and how you create product and connected with a fan base and commercialize it. I've done that for a long time, but I'm going to need to
rely on you for your motorsport expertise. And having been in the AFIL industry for twenty five years, you don't know the answer to everything, but you know how to get the answer. It's like everything's one or two phone calls away, like I know who to call to work out that thing. I remember early days leaving work thinking I don't know the answer to this question and I don't know to call. You feel pretty vulnerable at times, and so I had a completely different mindset stepping into
this role that I had. I didn't give enough respect to the industry to come up with the speed with how the industry works. A bit of the history was really important. I felt like to respect the history of the organization and the sport. So I've done a lot of reading, a little bit of travel to other events to try and understand F one, and we do the Moto GP down of Philip Ailin It's been a lot
of time with people. We're very fortunate we have Mark Webber as the past F one driver on our board, and we have Doing as a five time world champion Moto GP writer on our board, and I've been incredible. I'm sure some of the times when I ask questions are like, that is ridiculous question, but they humor me. And so I've had a coming up eighteen months now, right, eighteen months of just absorbing information. The first six months
I really just say back ask questions. I made a commitment to the board that it wouldn't change too much in the first six months. I would just sort of make sure I knew enough before I did anything. I'm going to my second F one in forty days time. I feel like I've got a bit of a sense now of how it works, and if it doesn't work, this one's on me. So I've been there long enough and I feel like I can start to make a difference.
Yeah, amazing. And I suppose like obviously that level of honesty and vulnerability to say, hey, I'm not an expert in this field. What kind of reception did you get from that being so honest about that?
Yeah, a bit of surprise, I think because historically leaders of the Grand Prix come from some a bit or a motors background and that had been suitable and done an incredible job. The past had done a wonderful job. I'd inherit an event that was doing really well, really
well run. But the opportunity was to take learning from other sports, I think, other events that working how we grow and so I think for some of them it's a good question for them, probably, but for some of them it was quite refreshing to say someone's coming in not to tell me how to do my job, but how to focus on the role I have and how we create a bit of a longer term vision here and the right environment for people. And so that's been an adjustment for them.
But I think that's very very true, is that. I mean, we all think the safety in someone who's known the industry for years, but the same token, then there is an element of, yeah, not letting people do their jobs's interfering too much, whereas that's not what you're here to do. You're just here to lead them in the best way possible.
So there's no risk of me being a micromanager right now.
No, it doesn't sound like it.
Name can't because I don't know the details, and so I think they're enjoying the freedom of that. But it's also an obligation for me to understand enough about their roles in the industry that I can support them, challenge them, and provide a bit of direction.
Have you sat in the car yet?
I haven't sat in the F one car, And in fact, I'm probably a bit tall to sit in the F one cars. I wouldn't go out there. Generally that mark web is probably my light. But yeah, they're pretty tight in those cars. I've been in a supercar, certainly tested my courage.
Now. I think it's widely known that culture is driven from the top, and you know, you've held many top positions that would have directly impacted the culture. Do you have like a you know, an approach to this, Like, you know, is it kind of very organic? Just you know Travis's character, I mean, you are a character. You've got some very strong positive leadership qualities. I can imagine naturally it would probably create a very trust built culture.
But do you have particular strategies that you like to go into organizations and put in place, Like are you sort of like I need this to happen. These rituals are things that I just always do wherever I go.
Yeah, I think so. And whether I've articulated them that way or a document or don't know, But I would say firstly that you have an enormous responsibility as a leader to role model what you want. And so there's that sort of saying. A friend of mine who was a bit of a mentor of mine says that what walks in the leader's runs and the teams, and so that notion. No matter whether you you like or know, people watching what you do, and they may believe what
you say, but they'll always believe what you do. And so I'm a big believer that of sort of leading through standard setting what standard do you expect? And so the only want to do that is through communication. So I like, you know, my management team meetings to have conversations about how we're going, how are we leading, how you think we're going in terms of our values, and which ones we're doing really well at, which ones you think we can get better at, and so just making
sure this room on the agenda for those conversations. I believe in sometimes you got to make conversations about where you want to go and which people are sort of on board with that, around your value setting. If you make exceptions of those things, then people will really doubt whether it's authentic and whether it's really what the organization stands for. And so it's about standard setting, it's about being consistent. You can't pick and choose. I think is
really important. But I think the most important thing for me, it's something I'm very proud of what I left the AFL and I'm certainly seeing it here is the ability to crate, invite where people can be themselves. This notion of creating a culture that works for me is not really what it's about. We have a culture here, we had before I started. So it was really coming in and trying to understand what really works well for you?
What is about this organization that you really love? You would like me to keep pushing along emphasizing, and what is that that you don't like? And how can I as a leader help with that? Rather than here, I am, this is my value set, this is the culture you need to have. It was a lot more trying to extract and understand as a leader, how can I give my people the best environment that I can, so they can bring all of themselves to work and collectively we
can do something pretty special. I don't know if to ask your question, but.
It's beautiful and I think it's such a thing because in order to let people be themselves right, they have to feel comfortable. And like I've done a lot of these kind of interviews and there are some where I'm not as comfortable as I am, Like right now, I feel completely comfortable. I'd probably go waffling down a trail with you because you make me feel that way, and
it's interesting. Then what is it? It's non judgment, it's you know, I mean, there's vulnerability and openness and communication. So I think if you're modeling that at the top, it's no doubt that the culture will kind of form itself from that. How do you then ensure that the people that work for you are equally as passionate or share these same beliefs as you like? How't even sure that happens?
That's the trick, isn't that? It is in a couple of ways. One is articulating really clearly what that looks like, so that the expectations are clear that no one can say how I didn't realize that you wanted us to do that or lead that way, or that was important for the organization. So having those conversations, we had lots of them. We've had lots of them in my first
eighteen months, just to explore what it looks like. Because I think the transformation comes in conversation, So serving those conversations and not always easy conversations, but if you do them regularly, they get normalized. And so that has been part of it, a bit of feedback. And then what I do, as an example, is every three or four weeks in my diary is an hour with six to eight staff randomly selected, or I have a coffee with
six to eight stuff okay. And it's a way just to keep my team accountable but the organization and to make sure I stay close to what's happening. As a CEO, sometimes you can become very removed actually what's going on in the organization. There's set questions. I asked, you know, what's changing, what's changing for the better, What do we need to focus more on? If you or me, what would you be doing? And it just ends up like this,
It ends up being a conversation. But I get really valuable feedback because my team sees things, my direct reports these things in a certain way, and sometimes the staff don't see that way. And it's like gives the ability to go back in a very constructive way and say, hey, I know we think we're off heading in this direction, but my coffee catch ups telling me that we're missing something over here. It's very non personal. It's sort of like it's a bit of a barometer for me, and
I find that really valuable. It's the best hour of sort of my month. It's their twelve months a year. It's the staff. I sort of building trust in the process that hate things are happening out of this, so I can see that things are changing when I offer my opinion. It's a long way to answering a question, which is I'm going to work really closely with my direct reports to understand how they're leading. And that's a one to one thing. That's not a group conversation because
they all lead differently. Their teams have different needs from their leaders, but also then from beneath. It's just making sure that what I'm hearing and what they're telling me is validated.
In that Kudos to utro It says brilliant, because people manage up very well, right, And we've seen this time and time again where you know, they'll tell you what you want to hear, but they're not reflecting you down below, and it does actually cause us massive block So I think that's a beautiful loop and it keeps everyone accountable.
So I love that. So then what if and I'm just asking this more hypothetically back you said about the fact that empathy is a big thing for you and you keep giving people chances and that, So how do you deal with having those conflict difficult conversations? You might have to let someone go, you know what I mean, they haven't performed. Is that something you're still struggle with or I.
Don't enjoy it? And I would say, if you do, you probably a bit strange.
I agree, you up being the wrong role.
I don't like it. Often tell them when I have the conversation, I don't enjoy these conversations that it would be difficult for you. It's also difficult for me, and just been honest about that. I think if you're honest, I think if they can tell that you're also finding the conversation difficult, I need to go into those conversations knowing that I've given them every chance. Yeah, and they'veset expectations. What is unfair is if they say, I didn't know
that's what you wanted from me. If you had have told me that, I would have done something different. So that to answer your question, I if I had to have a few of them over the years.
It's more that obviously you're willing to right, it's willing to have those difficult conversations when you have to, when someone's not representing the values of the organization or you know, staying alone.
Yeah. The thing for me is I find that they're easier if you're having them along the way. Yeah, Rather this big surprise conversation, I'm offering them conversations with someone to say, hey, I just observed the conversation or hoy in that meeting. Do you think we could have done that differently? Was your observation of it? It tends to be hopefully, if you're doing your job well enough that by the time the difficult conversation comes, they know why
you want to catch up with them. They're like, yep, I get it. We've talked about this a lot. I might not agree with the decision but I see where you're coming from because we've talked about it before. Rather than this big moment of hey, I've been watching you for twelve months and yet I don't have things and now you're gone. That wouldn't sit well with me either.
No, absolutely, I think it might be time for me to pose a difficult question for you. So I heard this question posed by a Harvard psychologist the other day, and I'd love to ask you this, Travis, Why should anyone be led by you?
The first thing I'd say is that being a leader is an enormous privilege and it comes with enormous responsibility. The same professor will team that leadership doesn't come with a title. People can choose to be led by you or not. It could be their boss, it doesn't mean you're their leader. And I think part of it is if I start with me understanding the responsibility that comes with being a leader. You are looking after people's careers,
looking after people's livelihoods. People when they come in through the door impacted being what's going on in their personal lives, and so I feel like I have that responsibility to make sure that I am caring environment for them, but also providing them enough challenge that they develop and so forth. And so why should someone be led by me? Hopefully because they have someone who cares about them as an individual,
have someone who takes an interest in their career. Sometimes that is or often that is not within the organization. Often you're encouraging people to think about roles outside the organization because it's best for them. It may not be best for the organization right now. Someone who While I'm strong on accountability, hopefully I'm equally strong on support. And I like to push the boundaries of it. I like to change things. I like to innovate, I like to
test people. And I get enormous satisfaction when somebody you've worked with before goes off and gets an amazing role and you think you might have just played a really small part in helping get them to that spot. And if I ask others about what they think about all that, but it's something I think a lot about. It's something I think a lot about as my role as a leader, that it's not just a right, it's a privilege, and that I need to turn up every day one thing
I do. I'm very intentional about how I show up, and so I will think on the way into work, what do my team need from me today? How do I need to show up? What's happening at the moment that might be important for them, that might influence how I show up. And I think that's important because that's the decision you get to make as a leader, is they will take cues from how I show up, and so what's happening in sort of broader enviru it's pretty important.
Well, my last two Christians for you are I want to know because it's just so much in your life, so much in your mind. You're looking after everybody else. What keeps Travis up at night? Or does Travis sleep quite well? Oh?
Don't sleep so well? All sleep better?
Is your mind thinking? Is it what it is? Or are you one of those thing it is?
Yeah, yeah, I'm up. It's not unusual for me to get up at the middle of night and write some stuff down or think through things. So I'm not the role model for this stuff. I can see the way you'll get me.
I don't sleep at all, Like my brain goes crazy if it was wondering with someone that gives so much to others and there's so much considerations, like I was just interested, because often sleep is the time where you know, we can't wind it down and we're still thinking so much about other people.
Yeah, that's so for me. My wine downtime is exercise. Okay, I really liked exercise, and so if I go cycle a bit now, and so if I'm out with mate Psyche, I'm not thinking about work stuff. I am actually engaging with them and a bit of fun in the band, yeah, what I enjoy. So sleep is not that for me. I'll often be thinking about things, and so I can sort of go to bed with a head full of
work and wake up with her for work. And so that's on why I sort of to do itet better at There's lots of things that keep me out at night. It's probably what motivates me, to be honest, I'm not one that sort of relaxes too much in a sense of personally or professionally. I always like the things I want to do differently or better, or things I haven't done yet, and that's probably just make yeah fair enough.
And my last question for you is, let's cast your mind back to how old, shall we say, eighteen year old Travis, what's the best advice you'd give.
Him from what you know now, I think the first one is just to take opportunities they come. My career hasn't been a straight line. I'm a big believer in sort of building the base, and so I've got to dis role with a whole lot of different experiences which hopefully help my sort of toolkit that I've got today. And so I'm a big believer that an opportunity might not be obvious, but take it if it comes. I remember when I was at university. I was two and
a half years in. The guy I was living with, a very smart guy going to be very successful, came to me and said, one of the bigg accounting firms in Melbourne is offered me a job finished six months early. And it was really hard to get into accounting firms back then in the chartered world. That's this incredible world done. So I'm not going to take it. I'm going to finish my Uni right, And so went to bed, got out the next morning and I said to him, that
doesn't make sense to me. You're going to do that? Can I speak to that person and see if I'll give me the job? Right? And he's like, oh, I know, Like that's a friend of the family and the guy's a partner, and I said, just let me have a chat to it. And that's how I got my first job. I rang up and said, I know you're going to give the job to Andy, but he doesn't want it. I want it. This guy's like what he said, coming to have a meeting with me. I went met with him.
This is the twenty year old mate.
Wow.
And so a bit of bolder said, a bit of just there's opportunity everywhere if you look for And so that's what I'd say to an eighteen year old is keep your eyes open. But I've been minded to watch in front of you. It might I'll be obvious the next step. But just take things and work out later how are you going to do them? And so I've had a career of being offered things in addition to my role, a new roles like yeah, Bugret, I'm going to do that and I'll work out later on holme,
I actually I can do it. Yeah, And so that would be the number one piece of advice for me when I was eighteen.
That's amazing, Travis. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I'm so excited for your year and watching what happens. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. It's been great.
Thanks. I appreciate you having me all