Apoche Production. Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series. This series, we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Happy people create happy businesses.
True emotionally intelligent leadership. I picked up vomit once on our about our fourth flight, and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him, I can do it.
Now.
We will be joined by culture and leadership experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. Today is a very special day for me here because this is my first interview with my first ever Olympian. But more than that, this man is a legend when it comes to swimming. Respected across the sports business and swimming communities for almost thirty years.
An Olympian who represented Australia at both the eighty four and eighty eight Olympics as well as the eighty two, eighty six and nineteen ninety conworph Games. In twenty twenty two, he became the first Australian Olympic middles to successfully swim the English Channel. Rows is a recently machine from the UK. Rob is now the CEO for Swimming Australia. And the incredible success of our twenty twenty four swimming team in Paris is a credit to the passion that you have
for this sport. And welcome to.
The podcast, Rob, Thank you amm that great to be here.
I think the list of achievements that I was reading about you could take the entire podcast, But as you know, we're on here talking about everything brave, which is bold, resilient, authentic, vulnerable and empathy. And for me, what's super important for people to understand is that you don't get to the level of success that you've experienced without having to work through all of those layers. Casting our mind back to
the beginning very quickly. I know you were born in Melbourne and to what is considered swimming Royalty, with your dad, Tony Woodhouse and your sister Susie both a big part of the swimming culture in Australia. I wanted to ask you straight up growing up, was there ever an option not to be in swimming.
That's a good question. I think it's an Australian way of life, isn't It certainly wasn't exclusively to our family. My parents did meet at a swimming club. My dad, Tony was involved with the PORTSI Surf Life Saving Club, but that now and half out of Melbourne. Yeah, both swimming was a part of their life. Who said, naturally became a part of our sel of five kids. We're all thrown into the pool and take it to swimming lift. I guess we took to it very well and enjoyed it.
From their progressed to swimming club level and swimming for the school, and then then club and state and then from assistants in I international art. So it was quite a journey. But no, I suppose possibly we didn't have any choice, but there was good.
Yeah, sometimes you meet people and their parents do this one particular thing and then the kids don't really want to, but it's sort of kind of expected. I wasn't sure if that was kind of the way it was as
a young man. When do you sort of first recall feeling, I guess any self doubt about swimming, and as you got into your professional swimming career, like did your dad and part some advice to you and how to work through that or was there another key mentor or does self doubt never come up and you were just going home from the get go?
I think I decried my character as going I think is probably self doubt. It's probably always been there and still is in various areas and dated base decision making. So it was probably once I got to that international level that, yeah, selped doubt probably is the last way to describe it, because you do doubt and then you've got the ability to win a soor to execute the perfect ways and so on.
I mean, such a young age, how did you talk yourself through that?
Probably a combination and different things because been on the Australia team for a long time was ten years in all, and I'm sure there were periods of self doubt throughout the time. It would have been mostly talking through with my coach or coaches at the time, possibly family members,
particularly my sister Susie. My dad was always a role model to me and a hero to me and still is, and so you know, having conversations with him, I suppose, but mostly coaches, I suppose when I'm specific to swimming.
Yeah, so you were only eighteen, if I'm right, when you competed in your first Olympics.
Is it grit? Yeah, gruc.
How really did you feel to take on something of that scale? What lessons do you think you learned at that point when you launched until Olympic Sis such a young age that you now feel have shaped the rest of your life.
Yeah, it's a good question. At the time, I certainly felt I was ready, and that's being young was an advantage because you didn't really think too much about what it all meant and what a big deal it was.
I started thinking about the Olympics probably when I was about ten or eleven years of age, but it never really dominated my thoughts or I was just a kid having fun swimming and being with my mates, and I had a good capacity to work hard and set goals and things like that, and they're the things that probably carried me through to representing Australia, but also through to everything else I've done in the sense, you know, that ability to set goals, to work with the team, to
manage my time, all those sort of skills that are key to business, key to everything else in particularly sport.
Yeah, it's true. I think that's one of the most beautiful things about sport for children, because I don't think we normally set goals very well, and whereas I think sport kind of forced you to do it so I think that's a very valuable lesson that people learn from that age. Sometimes on the outside and it could be wrong. It appears that professional athletes can sometimes be invaluable, right,
even though we know that's not true of humans. I'm not sure how big being vulnerable was particularly pay pats at that period. So growing up, what was your view on being vulnerable and talking about your struggles. Was that celebrated? Was it even encouraged? Was it and you just don't talk about it? Go have a cry and at the back when it doesn't go well, we did vulnerability sit fore then.
Yeah, it's changed a lot. Vulnerability back then was probably more in that category of for goheid and the call somewhere and not talk about it. But like I said, that ability to earn a confidence to talk with some people that I trusted, like my coaches in particular, that was really really important. When I was swimming. It was just starting to creep into the area of sports psychology even back then. It probably passed my career through into
the ninety using a sports psychologist. It's all psychologists seen by someone it's a bit of a weakness, it's something wrong with you and you're not tough enough sort of thing, and whereas now it's absolutely accepted that that's going to be nouncid performance without a doubt, if you've got the
right mindset and things like that. I suppose there was a little bit of a stigma about any sort of vulnerability, and particularly amongst young men and boys you wanted to be look like you're tough and you've had it all under control.
Was there a particular moment where you sort of felt like you're most exposed, like, oh God, I don't know.
If I can do this. Probably moments of for why I perceived to be failure. If I didn't perform as well as I expected, I felt like I'd let myself down, let everyone else down. And you know, it's not until much later on that you realize that you've let no one doubt at all, that everyone's incredibly proud of you, and in fact, as an individual, you're more than likely you've done the absolute best you possibly could. That doesn't
necessarily mean having your ultimate performance on the day. That you've done the best you could in the preparation, the whole lead up to whatever championship it is, and you just weren't good enough on the day or something might have happened, but at the time that's probably that disappointing performance is probably that biggest moment, Maybe not embarrassment, but feeling failure and that vulnerability.
Yeah, it's a lot brand person I describe and enjoy does being vulnerable as speaking from the messy middle, So when you don't have all the answer, That's how I like to describe it. So not always an easy thing to do when you play a prominent public role as you do. Now, how does vulnerability play it in your life now? So are you more comfortable doing that or is that still a bit of a struggle from those early days.
Yeah, very much more comfortable. In fact, I think vulnerability amongst leaders is a strength. People like to see vulnerability amongst people they work with and people that lead them. They're being normal, they're back honest. It's not a sign weakness. I think the vulnerability. I don't deliberately show it, but there are times when I will be vulnerable, being honest, and I feel good about talking about that. I think others can relate to that at times as well.
Absolutely, resilience, it's a big topic at the moment and it's often been seen in the past, I think, is that sort of tenacity that of like I just keep digging and digging, Whereas I think we know that it's much more multi faceted than that, and that we know times are going to be tough, we can expect it and we can kind of build the framework around as it's going to get us through. Right as I think,
what is the big part about it? So I guess the preparation to be resilient during your some in career. Was it just you go in there with the plan or is it more sort of you know, watch give it my best shot. Or did you actually have strategies to be resilient back then?
As certainly had strategies. And I guess resilience it wasn't a key word back then, and you had to work hard. I knew I had to put in the harveyard to do the miles, have my preparation right from a nutritional point of view, from in the gym, and all those sorts of things that I guess resilience is are part of all those scenes. On a day to day basis, it's a matter of turning up to a degree and just getting the job done without thinking too far ahead.
And I think a lot of athletes have that they have their plan and they know they've got whatever the period of time is ahead of their brilliant big games or their world championship. I call it a four month preparation from the previous season, and my plan it out one week at a time, one day at a time, where every one session or one step at a time, that the resilience comes from getting that set done or
that workout done good or band it's done. It's ticking a box and recovery and then thinking about the next line. It's just one step at a time, but also thinking really, just get through this day or get through this week before you know, eight weeks in and you've been two months ago, and all those sort of things. So I think that's for me what resilience was about when I
was swimming, and business is a lot like that. We all have plans, we have strategies and so on, but at the end of the day, just like my sport, you've got to enjoy it and have fun and all those sort of things. So that sponsaneity comes into it as well, and that's really really important both within the sport for training perspective and competitions, perspective to enjoy process, and so on. But particularly in that work environment, it's
got to be fun. You just go enjoy it. You've got to work hard, but you and your team are having a bit of funnel the way than what are you doing it for.
I love think you said that because actually, if I look at like all the elements of resilience and the utenacities, one you talk about self care, which is what a lot of athletes do pretty well right in terms of looking after that, But you called out one that's really important, which is passion, right, which is where the joy comes from. How do you keep going if you're not enjoying it? That's where I think people fall over. So I think it's that beauty of working in an industry of something
that you love so deeply. It probably doesn't feel quite as hard work sometimes. I'm sure it does sometimes.
Yeah, absolutely, it's a really good point actually, And if you have the passion, you can work hard and do things that you totally want to do because it's really really hard, whether physically or mentally or whatever. You'll get knocked back to your confront obstacles and everything like that, but you don't mind it was that passions there. And it doesn't mean every single session or every single day is a joy, it's not. That's sometimes where that passion
shines through and you've got an objective. But also I guess at the end of it where that satisfaction comes from as well, because you know, you were really bloody hard and committed yourself and you got through those around those obstacles and you achieve whatever it is you've achieved.
What about now though, in a sort of CEO business capacity, are there certain things that Rob does now in life just to make sure he gets through the week, Like you know, can I find you meditating in the morning, Like what's happening for you?
I sleep were I go to bed earlier? Basically that's the thing. But I still enjoy something in the mornings. I still do a lot of open water swamps and things like that. So you know, something I really unders start doing again like sort of three or four years ago. But having those goals, it's a personal goal. It's personal challenge, whether it be you're selling an English channel or when
I'm doing this year and next year. It's something which I set myself and a strategy answer to talk about Astralgia before I do a little strategy and plan around what I need to do and when I need to do with buy and so on. And it sounds like it's hard work, but that's sort of the passion there and I can park that in that box and I have my work passion and other things that I like doing as well. I find that quite invigorating to me, howle to do different things.
So after your professional swimming career, you moved to the UK. Can I as what prompted that move.
I run a sports marketing company here in Australia, head in Melbourne for a number of years sinceeen ninety five, so got to two thousand and eight, had a young family. London had won the IT for the twenty twelve Olympics a couple of years before. We started thinking about expanding the business into the UK and from the area to Europe and going to other sports like stockolp, football and
player management things like that. We're already very strong in talent management in the Olympic area in Australia as well as AFL in a little bit of cricket as well, So it was a natural sort of progression if you'd like to think about going over seas and London seemed a perfect place to do it. So that was the reason for the move with the young family packed up the house and moved over in two thousand and eight.
The bee of brave is bold. Now I des grow bold as that moment you get that feeling where you're like, oh, I don't know if I want to do that, or an idea gets putformd and you get some sort of physical resistance to it and you think, do you know what, that's the thing I have to do. So I was wondering when I read about you swimming the English Channel, was that one of those bold moments in your life where you decided I had to do this Because it was the ten hours plus I think in the water
a bit of a crazy thing. So was that one of those moments?
Yeah, it was probably. As you said, crazy is probably a better word than bold. I think that's from across the rip in Melbourne at the interest to port Field Bay with some mates. It's only about five kilometers, but it's the mind games because you think about sharps and all those sorts of things. I've done that mainbly six months before iust on my channel and I really enjoyed it.
I don't know why. It was just something about being out there and watching the waves sort of coming in and being with my apes as well, and not that I was necessarily looking for a change like that, but fished that that was good fun. There's something took an hour or so a couple of hours that it was and that was good fun. And I started and I
knew I was heading back to the UK. I was here for a Christmas break and I was tending back to the UK, and I said to my mate, I might never look into you need to do the swimming English Channel and he said, you're crazy, And there's their word again, and so yeah, probably to look at it. And as it turned out, there was opening an opportunity to swim in August of that year, so I thought
why not. It was only after I signed up and paid my deposit then, But then I probably looked into the sort of the preparation I needed to do and I thought, oh, got a bit of work to do here, need to get myself hit. A lot of our training was by myself swinging in Scotland, so swimming at the locks in Scotland which were pretty cold, so getting that resilience.
We talked about just jumping in there on my own pretty much every day for three or four months, and as well as training at the pool, and it was pretty therapeutic, So don't we forget about things and dramas and all sorts of stuff. And then managed to get across the channel.
Yeah, I mean, obviously mind blowing to someone like me. You can really sim for avery short period of time, but ten hours in the water physically obviously very grueling. But the mental game, did you have moments and you're swimming in that we think? I don't think so, or does it not happen to a professional athlete?
It must happened to me that swim. It didn't happen. I only ever set out to do one ocean swim, which was this one. I've now done quite a lot more and some are a bit scarier than that. But the English Channel one was great fun. I had three or four really good mates on the boat, my brother in law being one of them, and professional marathon swimming coach Slash Nutritions to play the key role and so on. So I felt like I hadn't left any stone until
one of the great joys about swimming the channel. It's because the water is cold. The initial advice was, you know, don't lose any weight, better off putting weight on. So that was music to I. ISS like, don't need to worry about what I or anything like that. So those three or four months I trained hard, but I was over a week pretty heartily as well.
So yeah, a lot of fun to I mean, obviously everyone's funds different, but it's good to see that that's that came through. As we established before, once you're a professional swimming career ended, you launch straight into a very successful business career, establishing the management company a League Sports. You're also general manager of the London Raw and was involved across sports medias and many areas. So transitioning from
playing sport to leading in this space. How did being an athlete shape the way you approach business?
You played a massive part. First of all. Whilst I started my own business simply because I couldn't get a job in sports marketing, I sat at Adam worked at
Australia post for a few years. That was my first job and I was also likely to be given a job there, and I was managing a post office in Melbourne doing my Masters and I completely my MBA and it was around that when Sydney won the Olympic bid nineteen monety three I started thinking about it, but it was another twelve months before I thought I only give this a go. I applied for various jobs at sports marketing companies and those kind of explained as advance as
they are probably now. But I couldn't get a job. So I thought I'd better there's song go out of my own. No one really knows Olympic athletes like I do. I'll just see what happens. I quit my job at Australia Post and just started working from my front bedroom of my home in Collingwood. And about six months later I met up with Craig Kelly, Collingwood footballer and we've
known each other previously. We hadn't seen each other for a few years, but we started talking together and he just started his company in AFL player management representation and so within about three or four months re mated aetition, all let's join up, and that's when we formed. I
read sports properties and went from there. But I think the skills that we both learned a footballer for Craig and there's swam those skills I mentioned before, the time management, the goal setting, the team were strategizing, building a good team around you, and all those sorts of things where those skills I've had as an athlete were really critical in terms of starting the business and then building it into the success that it became.
I love this, you know, every time I speak to Eman and sport, I'm always this big smile on my face thinking so many lessons in sport that just need to be translated to business because it just worked all the time. It's around team work, but also around a common united purpose. I always think that's just such a key part. And at the companies I deal with that they don't really know what they're all working towards, and I think that shows right and how the company sort
of ends up. For yourself being in the public eye, I mean, it always has its challenges, I think when it comes to being authentic, because there's always a chance that you could get rejected or be judged if you said whatever you're thinking. There's possibly a consequence or a career mail front page. Who knows looking back, how has your willingness to be truly authentic changed? And do you still feel there are times where you can't be or you'd need to hold back.
I think authenticity is crucial in any role, I guess moving into more leadership positions. In the role I'm in now, it is a leadership role, So that's authenticity. When I talk, I'm representing sport. That's what was the organization and everyone, and that's as well as myself. When I'm running my own sports marketing company, it's a little bit different. I'm representing obviously my team and stuff there and the athletes, but this is a bit of a different level. But
I think the authenticity is still really really important. But it's about understanding who you're speaking on behalf of. It's not just yourself. So you can still be authentic, but understanding sort of the people you're representing with the words saying, all the actions that you're demonstrating.
I totally agree, but that would be challenging right at times. It's a balance you could to constantly be aware of. I can often have no filter and I don't need to worry so much because it's my own business, but I imagine that in that space it would be hard. Sometimes if you disagree with something, you've got a way up very quickly. Can I really say that? What do I need to take a more measured approach to it?
So yeah, absolutely, it's understanding what the pros and cons are very quickly and making those decisions, and also accepting that you're going to be wrong from time to time with the decisions did you make, and there's nothing wrong with that putting up your hand and say yeah, that was wrong, or just looking back and thinking and maybe I shouldn't have said that.
It's trusting judgment and being confident enough to speak out when you feel strongly enough about something if you don't agree with something, to encourage as best as possible to write wrongs in the sense of if people in your team they want feedback good and bad, if it's constructive and if it's communication in a good way. I think it's a fairly natural thing for me to do that. But I certainly make mistakes. It's no doubt about that.
I think it's natural for you, if I think for a lot of people it's not. It's actually quite hard to know how to do that. And I mean you talk about being able to own mistakes. Is that something you feel you've got better at as time's gone by, Particularly you know, being in such a high pressure environment of performance when things do go wrong, do you feel more comfortable in owning that?
Yeah? I mean no one likes to make a mistake, do they, but feel more comfortable than owning it, but also feeling more comfortable in not taking ownership when it actually was at my mistake in the first place, and that's possibly something I did previously. It's a responsibility to sort of smooth the water, whereas now I'll assertmein we take ownership by all means, but if the faults or the error lives elsewhere that I don't necessarily need to
take ownership of that. If it's within my day, we need to work on how it doesn't happen again and how we can get better.
So taking on this new role this year, which is an amazing role A see're assuming Australia. What does that mean to you personally?
I guess it's an opportunity for me. It's not about giving back and look, the support has given me so much. I love the sport of swimming. I love everything about it, from just going for a dip at the beach now jump in the pool with some mates, to watching the Olympic Games and the Paralympic Games, that they're all special and I've got so many great mentories and great friendships and someone out of the sport as well. In a sense,
there is that giving back to me. It's the opportunity to contribute and to make the sport even better than it has been before, and certainly better it has been in recent years. I'm not sure how long it will be CEO was to me in Australia. I feel quite young in this role, but I would like to make sure that we're in a better financial position. We are providing more opportunities to a more diverse group of Australians.
We are encouraging and we're inspiring Australians to swim. There's lots of things I want to do and I guess that's what this role means to me, is it's the opportunity to do that with a great team of people with me.
Oh, I mean, I think there's something more inspiring than having some of your background being able to do this role, Like I kin't of imagine. You know, that's something that people would look up to and really values. I love that. I define culture as behavior repeating, so it's how you show up every day again, again and again. That just
starts to like organically create a culture. So what are you trying to create at some in Australia And are you deliberate about the things that you do and the organization to achieve it, Like, are the things that you've just tried to put in place to create this culture that you want?
Yes, definitely. Probably the biggest one is communication. Going into the role we had quite a fractioned stakeholder group. It's building relationships and it's supporting each other and also understanding what the objectives of the other stakeholders are because the state swimming Tasmania may have a different objective to Swimming Australia, which would have a different objective to World a Codex. But you're working together in various way shapes and forms.
So communications missing in the past. So I bought that certainly encourage that within our organization, for us to be the ones that are reaching out to our stakeholders, engaging with them, understanding them and it needs better and also
working with them so they understand what we're doing. We've just gone through a strategic plan refresh and involved all of our stakeholders in that, so they all had input in to it, and that's one of the goals, so that they understood and having put it to where we're going, it's a normalization that they're our members, so they should be aving inputs. So hopefully that's going a long way towards creating I guess I'm all united sort of ecosystem
within the sport. That's an example of sort of working on something where I wanted to implement that. I guess the change of thinking.
Yeah great, and I was thinking to a couple of CEOs. They tell me when specially when they come into a role new, they have a vision, right, and they're the goals that the one achieve and the behavior is that they kind of want to expect from the organization those who work there. I mean, you're just one man, right, so how do you make the people around you accountable to stick to that, to be aligned like that sort of teamwork at your direct level.
I don't think you'll make anyone be or do anything. It's they need to want to be accountable. They need to want to be doing different roles. And one of the things I certainly encourage is for people to feel safe to speak up and to contribute, and I'm not
saying that didn't happen before I was there. Safe environment in the sense of everyone feeling confident their ideas, their thoughts, their questions will be heard and respected, is a fantastic environment to be The enthusiasm and the collaborative nature is shown by that is does wonders. That's the environment I like to think that we are creating, but it's very much a team. But it's not just me, that's for sure.
We talk our purpose and vision outside that we're just going with one purpose, and that is the purpose is to inspire a strains through swimming. Does that worked across so many different areas of our sport, whether it's the elite end or learn to swim or the eighty ninety year olds that go down and dip their toes in the water and swilling, their connection with their friends and so on. If what we're doing is inspiring austrains is swimming, then we're doing a job and we're doing a good thing.
As someone who does a lot of work on purpose values, I love that purpose that's very good because it is it can connect to everybody. And I kind of agree with you. If you imagine being part of your teammaking this happen. If you're not connected to that, like if you don't get up every day to inspire Australians are in swimming, then you probably not the job for you anyway. Right, So it's a very heartfelt. I really really do love that. What do you believe right now we are in your
life is still your biggest leadership challenge? Was the one part of leasure that you go, oh, still got to work on that, or I don't really like that, or what's the bet that's sort of yeah.
The organization has challenged and I suppose from a leadership speak, if it's part of my responsibility to look to overcome those challenges, I would think it is ensuring that we've got proper diversity in our sport. By diversity across board, there's specific pockets where we have not been good in the past. For example, females coaching ranks at the level. There's very few females at the elite level, so we are instigating program to the development level, which will they'll
take a while to be coming through. There's the reason why our coaching rank shouldn't be equally represented by male and female. So gender equity and so on. But also that diversity in the future of our sport in twenty or even ten is bringing first generation of Australians and second generation of strains into the sport. I think that's probably from a leadership point of view. Those sorts of things need to come from leaders. It's got to be a real willingness to change and a real push to
have those changes accepted. And I think the acceptance part is probably the easier part. But then that willingness and the strategizing around it is where the challenge has come to make that happen. So there's one for you. It's probably that change in the diversity of our sport.
Yeah, you know great. What about specifically for you? Is there a thing that you still have to do as a leader, whether that's sacking somebody or you know what I mean, a difficult conversation that you still still get uncomfortable with.
I would always be uncomfortable with making major changes to someone's life. And you know we're tucking or terminating employment for whatever reason. I've never found that an easy thing to do. Unfortunate times, it does have to happen. We've got a great team at the moment, So don't need to think about that right now. It still comes down of communication as well. There are ways to do things, and the bad news does have to be delivered, and good decisions need to be made, and that sometimes means
making uncomfortable conversations. That's part of the leaders business.
End of the day. Like I think, if anyone said they didn't bother them, they probably should't be in the role right like it should. We're human and it should always bother us. Okay, I'm going to ask you a question now, I'll pre warn you. Everyone have asked this question to has struggled to answer it, so don't feel bad if you do as well, because it's a tough thing. It's probably the toughest question I've ever asked, and I love It's why I keep using it, Rob wood House.
Why should anyone be led by you?
They probably shouldn't. Why should they be led by me? It depends on the circumstance. But if I can sell them, influence them a belief of where we are going and what our purpose is and what we need to achieve to get there, if they're willing to buy into that journey and contribute to all of those things. How we get there, then that's why they should be led by me.
Because you will inspire them to get there. Correct seem so hard for everyone to just own that vet really say because I'm great, because I can say, no one can say it. They always good to help. I wanted to lastly talk to you about empathy because obviously it's the last of brave and I think it's a really interesting topic when it comes to professional sport. How much room when everyone's striving to be the best is there
for empathy when people aren't coping? Like, do we foster a culture in Australian sports which says it's okay not to be okay? Or could we do better?
We can always do better. We do a lot with our well being of our athletes. There's still more to be done, and there's more to be done with the wide team at coaches and supports. Stuff that's been five six months a year away from home and away most we cans from family in mod Onnes and things like that. So the well being of our team is crucial and empathy plays a massive role in that. But if we don't have empathy, nothing else really matters. You can win
all the gold medals in the world. But you don't. If you don't have empathy for those around you, whether it be family and friends or colleagues and so on, then what are you doing. You shouldn't be involved.
Yeah, I love that. Let's go back to eighteen year old Rob seen photos but there was no mullet. So good to see that. Dren didn't keep going. What's the best advice you would give yourself today? Wut you know now that you wish me? Then what would you tell yourself? Do what you love so you'd end up probably here?
Then?
Good full story. Oh, thank you, Rob. It's been a pleasure talking to you, and I'm super excited for some in Australia and where things are going to go, So thank you for that.
No, thanks em great question, so thanks very much.