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Dominique! You've hardly pecked at your corn! What's up? Daryl, I have big dreams of flying the coop. There's just one problem. I'm scared. I'm not brave enough to chase after my dreams. You can't check it out now! But we are check- I mean, you gotta stand up for yourself! You gotta believe in yourself! How the dickens am I supposed to doodle-do that? Don't get your feathers in a rubble! Just listen to me, Dominique! I have something to tell you! In song form!
What good are wings if you don't spread? He thought the sky was falling. Oh my great- It took millions and millions of years to- those millions me and you You're right. Watch out, world. I'm going to cross that road with my own two chicken feet, and I will get to the other side. You're listening to Brains On for APM Studios.
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Alright, today I'm super excited because Siddharth from Houston, Texas is back as our co-host. Welcome Siddharth. Hi Molly. Today's episode is about two things that you love. dinosaurs and birds right today we're going to talk all about how birds are like living dinosaurs so darth i know you're a long time fan of dinosaurs but you've also gotten more into birds recently so what got you interested in dinosaurs and birds in the first place
I first got interested into dinosaurs when I was like I think maybe three or four my mom got me a book and i read it and i really liked the illustration and i learned a lot from it i think that's what sparked my interest for dinosaurs and my later interest for birds developed when i was around six where my mom got a little interested into birds and I just stole her books and started reading them.
And then, yeah, I got a pair of binoculars. There is like a little guide in there. And then I just started birdwatching a bit and then it slowly developed. And now I'm like a really big birdwatcher. That is so cool. So what is your favorite bird fact you've learned since you started getting into birds? Oh, that's tough. I think my favorite bird fact is that the fastest bird ever the peregrine falcon can actually reach a speed of up to 240 miles per hour.
in a dive. And I think that's really cool because that's faster than most cars now. Yeah, that's very, very fast. That's incredible. So, when you see a bird, knowing that they're basically little dinosaurs, are you thinking about that when you're looking at birds, or are you kind of just enjoying birds for what they are? I think often I'm often just enjoying the birds for what they are, but when I first learned that they're similar to Ninesworth, I always thought, oh wow, that's so cool.
Because when I was younger, I always thought that dinosaurs were just something way old and didn't exist anymore. But then when I learned that birds are technically living dinosaurs, I just saw them as like, oh, there's a dinosaur. And this was when I was like around six. That's so cool. So you've been bird watching. Is there a certain bird you've seen that was like really exciting to you that you got to spot?
I think one of the most exciting birds that I've seen was a bird called a whooping crane. I think it's one of the rarest birds I've seen. I saw it in South Texas. on a bird tour with a professor from Rice University. And I think now there are only a couple thousand individuals of this species left. And that small area of South Texas near Corpus Christi is one of the few areas where they live. That is so cool. Are there some birds on your list?
that are sort of like, these are my dream birds that I really want to see someday in person. Oh yeah, a lot. There's some which I can technically find in and around Houston, but for some reason, even though I've been looking for about five years, I've just never seen one. One of them is like the painted bunting, which is a really beautiful, colorful little songbird.
That's really cool. I hope you spot one soon. We've had a lot of listeners curious about birds and dinosaurs too. My name is Julie and my question is, why did dinosaurs evolve into birds? Hi, my name is Arjun. My question is how did the birds survive when the dinosaurs died? Thanks to Julian and Arjun for sending in your questions. So yes, the birds we know and love, ostriches, pigeons, chickadees, parrots, and peacocks, they're all living dinosaurs.
In fact, the closest living relatives to a T-Rex are wait for it ostriches and chickens That is wild, right? Scientists think that birds evolved from a special kind of dinosaur called a theropod. Theropods had two legs, and the group includes famous dinos like T-Rex and Velociraptors. But scientists think that the birds we know today descended from a group of much smaller theropods. How do scientists know this? Because of Fossil.
Fossils are evidence of prehistoric life. We get fossils when remains of ancient living things, like animal bones, teeth, or even plants, are buried in rock, mud, or sand. Over time, all that stuff hardens up and becomes a fossil. Sometimes fossils are like a mold of whatever object was left behind, like a bone or a tooth. Other times, they're an impression, like a footprint, a leaf, or even a feather. Just like if you stuck your hand in some wet concrete and your handprint hardened up.
Today, people find these ancient fossils and use them as clues to learn about what happened in the past. But when scientists first discovered dinosaur fossils in the late 1600s, they had no idea what they were looking at. They thought they were all sorts of things. Ooh, look what I dug up. Whoa! That bone is massive! It has to be a giant's arm bone, don't you think? No, no, no, no, no. That's a monster's left fibula if I've ever seen one. Trust me. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. New idea.
What if it's a dragon's tailbone? So people used to think dinosaur fossils were from giants or monsters. As time went on and people found more and more fossils, they started to think that dinosaurs were just giant lizards that weren't around anymore. Right, the word dinosaur literally means fearfully great lizard in Greek. But our first clue that dinosaurs might actually be related to birds came in the mid-1800s. Back then, people were still using horses and buggies to get around.
trains were becoming more popular too. Plus some of the first zippers had just been invented. And in 1861, a German paleontologist discovered a fossil of a bird-like dinosaur. Paleontologists are people who study fossils. The dinosaur fossil had a small body about the size of a raven. It also had wings, but not just any wings, wings with feathers. This was the first discovery of a dinosaur with feathers. They call this new creature Archaeopteryx.
Even after this discovery only a few scientists thought that birds and dinosaurs could be related. Lots of paleontologists argued that Archaeopteryx was just a super old bird, not a dinosaur. The majority of people still believed that dinosaurs could only be giant lizards and reptiles. Until over a hundred years later in the 1990s. The year was 1996. The kids show Arthur had just started airing on TV. The Spice Girls were taking over the radio and my heart.
And in China, scientists had made an exciting new discovery. They identified a bunch of dinosaur fossils feathers. These feathered fossils were different from Archaeopteryx, Because these dinosaurs didn't have wings. They didn't fly. They were just feathery dinos. the only animals we knew of with feathers were birds. But these fossils definitely weren't birds. So, if long, long ago there were ancient dinos with feathers, Much later we see similar feathers on birds.
to think that those two species directly related since then paleontologists thousands of dinosaur fossils feathers which changed our idea of what dinosaurs looked like we used to think they were just big lizards but now we understand that some dinos were more bird-like and our idea of dinosaurs would probably keep changing That's right.
Every time we find a new fossil or figure out something new about the past, we get a little more information about what dinosaurs were really like. It's like we're putting an ancient puzzle together piece by piece. And the picture gets clearer and clearer with every new bit of evidence. Okay, so Darth, we've tackled the dinosaur and bird mystery, but are you ready for a mystery for the ears? Because it's time for the...
So, Darth, are you ready to hear today's mystery sound? Yeah. Okay, here it is. Gracias. Gracias. Hmm, what do you think? Okay, so it's definitely outdoors. There's something mechanical with some sort of electrical motor, and it was outdoors, so maybe it was like a car door opening. Yeah, it's tricky. Should we hear it again? Yeah. Okay. Gracias. Okay. Might actually be like the trunk of a car opening, now that I think about it. That's a really good guess. Like when somebody presses a button.
Maybe I'm just too focused on this idea, but I think it might be. No, that's a really good guess. I also have no idea what this is. I heard birds. So maybe it's the bird I hired to mow my lawn with their new electric lawnmower. I don't know. We'll hear it again. Get another chance to guess and hear the answer after the credits where we will find that Siddharth was probably right and I was most likely wrong.
So, Siddharth, if you could bring a living, breathing dinosaur to show and tell at school, what kind would you bring and why? I'd probably bring a type of dinosaur called a Dryosaurus. I wouldn't bring any carnivorous dinosaur because it would probably either bite me or eat me.
Probably not any large dinosaur because that'd be hard. Dinosaurus is like a five foot tall herbivorous dinosaur, which probably wasn't aggressive and was tame, so I just like to think of it as maybe it could be like a large dog. I love that little dog. dino buddy to bring to school that's as tall as me I think that's really great well we asked our listeners the same question and here's what they had to say If I could bring a dog. The Squall Hour.
because I could play hide and seek with it and make a fort under my desk. Hi, my name is Margo, and I would bring a gentle treasure. so that me and my friends could ride riding, we could put our jackets Ciceratops. On. Hi, I'm Asia. I live in Scarborough, Maine, and the dinosaur that I would bring to show and tell is a Scansoriopteryx, a small, wooden dinosaur, so around the classroom. And I live in Virginia. And I... Want to bring a troward on because he could. My name is Grace, and I would...
a brontosaurus. I would bring in a brontosaurus so that at recess the kids could climb on its head and it would take them around the playground and they could also slide down its back and tail. all of them because I like all dinosaurs. Thanks to Ellie, Margo, Aisley, Emmett, Toby, Grace, and Finn for sending your classroom companion ideas. It's clear that our listeners love dinosaurs because we heard from so many of you. So we're going to play more of your dinosaurs. Like this one. Hi.
My name is Carly and I am from Woodstock, Georgia. And my question is, would a poisonous snake die if it bit itself? And keep listening. Brains On Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Brains On, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore! It's Alien Exercise Hour! While I stretch my snoodles and bounce on my trampolini, I'll listen to a new... podcast. I'm going to try... BEST!
Podcast ever! Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command. Drop the beat! Ladies and gentlemen, rabbit hole. That was a Come back here, podcast. Must listen to Smash Boom Best now! Listen to Smash Boom Best wherever you get your podcasts. Today's episode is sponsored by Gab. As a parent, I get nervous when I think about introducing my kid to phones. The idea that one day she'll be a teen scrolling mindlessly on her phone for hours.
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protecting your kids has never been easier for the best deals sign up to gab today no contract required at gab.com slash brains on that's gab g-a-b-b two b's dot com slash GABB.com slash BrainsOn. Terms and conditions apply. You're listening to Brains On. I'm Siddharth. And I'm Molly. Before the break, we talked about how birds are like living dinosaurs. Birds first evolved from a group of dinosaurs called theropods millions of years ago.
We know this because scientists have found lots of fossil evidence. The dinosaur bird connection is just one example of unexpected distant relatives. The world is full of them. Like how NSYNC's Lance Bass and Britney Spears are sick. Cousins? You're full of late 1990s pop music references today, aren't you, Molly?
But I was thinking about how different animals are related, like through evolution. When we say different animals are related, it's not like they're siblings or cousins. It's more like they have a distant animal relative in common. Wait a second. When did you change into an orange sequined blazer? Oh, this? Hey, is that my game show podium, an old-timey microphone? Yes, and yes. Testing, testing, one, two, three. This can only mean one thing.
Game show, Siddharth? That's right. Does that mean I get to be the contestant? Correct, contestant Molly. I think it's time we play a little game of... For this game, I'll name an animal and then list two possible relatives. You have to guess which relative is more close related to that animal. So for example, if I gave you the animal T-Rex, would you say it's more close related to chickens or chameleons?
Um, chickens. You got it. Okay, let's start. Your first animal is jellyfish. Do you think jellyfish are more closely related to blobfish or coral? Ooh, okay. I'm gonna guess. blobfish because they're kind of blobby and jellyfish are kind of wiggly Am I right? That is actually incorrect. Jellyfish are in fact not fish. They're more closely related to coral than there are to any fish.
They belong to the nidaria family. That includes coral and sea anemones. Oh my gosh. You know what? That makes a lot of sense because we did a coral episode not too long ago when I learned about coral polyps. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Okay. I just listened to that one in the car. Oh, you did? I really should have thought about that. Yeah, because baby jellyfish are also called polyps, you guys. Okay. Okay. I get it. I get it. I'm ready. I'm ready for the next.
Okay, let's talk horseshoe crabs. Do you think the more clothes relate to spiders or lobsters? Horseshoe crab? Oh man, I feel like these are extra tricky. Um, lobsters have shells. Horseshoe crabs have shells. Oh man, okay, I gotta say lobsters. The correct answer is in fact spiders. Oh my gosh. Despite their name, horseshoe crabs aren't really crabs. They're more like spiders or scorpions.
They're in fact one of the oldest living animals. Ready for another one? Yes, and I'm realizing it's much harder to be a contestant on a game show. Okay, I'm ready, I'm ready. Alright, this one is about your favorite animal, sloth. I think sloths are more closely related to koalas or anteaters. Okay, I better get this right for the sloth. I talk about them a lot. Okay. Come on. Okay. I'm going to say ant-eaters. That is actually correct. Yay! I love that you're surprised that I got it right.
Even though koalas like to chill out and hang out in trees, they're not actually as closely related to sloths as in cheaters. Thank goodness I got that right, or else I would not be able to say sloths are my favorite animal anymore. What a relief. Okay, your final animal is the great hippopotamus. Do you think hippos are more closely related to rhinos or to whales? Pfff, hippos.
Rhinos or whales? Okay, hippos like to be in the water. So do whales. I've never seen a wet rhinoceros. So, I'm going to go with whale. You're correct! Oh my gosh! Hippos are actually Wales' closest living relative. They share common ancestor that lived about 55 million years ago that probably lived on land. Nice work, Molly. Started off weak, but I... Gain steam towards the end. What do I win? Glory. Oh, okay. Great job, Game Show Siddharth. That was excellent work. That's all for...
So far we've talked about how birds evolved from ancient dinosaurs. We know this based on fossils we found of dinosaurs with feathers. We also know that dinosaurs were wiped out about 66 million years ago when a giant asteroid hit Earth. This asteroid caused around 75% of Earth's animals to die out. So, if birds are living dinosaurs, why is it that birds survived the mass extinction, but dinosaurs didn't?
To learn more, we talk to paleontologist Jingmay O'Connor. She's the Associate Curator of Fossil Reptiles at the Field Museum in Chicago, and she studies how birds evolved from dinos. Hi Jingmay! Hi Molly! Hi Siddharth! Thank you so much for having me! We've got some questions for you, Jingmay. First up, how are birds and dinosaurs similar? What are their differences? Okay, so this is kind of a tough question because when we think of dinosaurs, it's...
It is this incredibly diverse group. There are so many different types of dinosaurs, right? So for example, if you compare Stegosaurus to a bird, they might not seem that similar. So what you have to do is go back to the ancestral dinosaur, the common ancestor of all dinosaurs both alive today and extinct. So that animal was small. bipedal, warm-blooded, and covered in
skin projections that we call proto feathers. So those are all things that are very similar to birds today, except feathers evolved into very complex structures in birds. Now what are the differences? Well, one of the biggest differences is that birds can fly. But actually, this does not separate birds from all non-bird dinosaurs.
There were also other groups of dinosaurs that also evolved to be able to fly. So evolution is so complex, which makes it really difficult for us to provide simple answers to these questions. Did birds and dinosaurs live at the same time and if so what time? Absolutely! So the oldest dinosaurs appear in the Triassic and they're about 235 million years old. The oldest birds that we know of are about 150-155 million years.
So from 155 million years ago to 66 million years ago, you have birds and non-bird dinosaurs coexisting. And then after the end Cretaceous mass extinction, the most famous mass extinction caused by this giant meteor impact, then you only have bird dinosaurs going forward. How did birds survive the meteor impact when all the dinosaurs went extinct? This is a very good question and one that I'm actually hoping to be able to provide an answer to with my own research.
The short answer is we don't really know. Now, one thing that's important to remember is that while, yes, birds survive this mass extinction, but not all birds survive. There were lots of lineages of Cretaceous birds that also go extinct alongside non-bird dinosaurs. So what made the one lineage of birds that did survive different from other dinosaurs that allowed them to survive through this? environmental disaster. There are several possibilities. So for example, modern birds grow really fast.
So, for example, have you ever seen a baby pigeon? That's because pigeons stay in the nest and grow to adult size in about three weeks. And then they fly off. So you just never really see them as babies because they grow so quickly. So this means that if you can grow quickly, you spend a shorter period of time where you're vulnerable and you rely on your parents and you aren't as good as taking care of yourself. So if you can grow quickly, that's something that's advantageous.
Also, birds have very high metabolic rates. So that may have allowed them to survive when it got cold. Birds also have really complex and super efficient digestive systems that allow them to feed on things like detritus.
like during this mass extinction you have an impact winter so the sun is blocked out which means the plants die that means the animals that eat the plants die and the animals that eat the animals that eat the plants die right But if you can eat things that, for example, seeds from trees that are, you know, were from years before, if you can eat that kind of detritus, then maybe that was an advantage that helped birds survive through this mass extinction.
There are so many different reasons that we think, you know, may be allowed. this one lineage of birds to survive. It's probably a combination of all these factors. But again, like I said, sorry for that long answer. We don't really know. Oh, that's really cool. I actually didn't know that. What are we still learning about the connection between birds and dinosaurs?
So we know that birds are living dinosaurs, but we don't know which group of non-bird dinosaurs birds are most closely related to. So there are a bunch of different hypotheses. A hypothesis is an interpretation. of evidence that you seek to test by collecting more data. I personally hypothesize that birds are a lineage, a branch of living troodontid dinosaurs.
How cool is that? But we're really not sure about this. We still need more fossils to help us better understand the relationship between birds and the dinosaurs most closely related to them. The problem is there's a lot of homoplazy and homoplazy basically means that you have similar features evolving over and over again independently so like i mentioned we have more than one group of flying dinosaurs they're all the dinosaurs that are closely related to birds
So even though they evolve flights separately, they're evolving similar features because they're trying to solve the similar problem of being able to fly. Wow, that's really interesting. Scientists actually recently discovered another ancient bird fossil in China. What do you think of this new discovery? And can you tell us more about why scientists are so excited about this new bird fossil? We totally are so excited about this new bird fossil.
And it was discovered by a friend of mine, Dr. Wong Min. So I just can't say how proud I am of him. So the reason this is so exciting is because I know you guys talked about Archaeopteryx earlier and you talked about how it was described in 1861. So for 163 years. Archaeotrix was the only bird we knew of from the dra-
It was the oldest fossil bird, and the only bird from that period. And now, finally, 163 years later, we have another Jurassic bird, Bominornis, and actually also that furcula that they described in the same paper. So two new Jurassic birds. Really really exciting about this discovery is that if you look at the skeleton of these birds It's very advanced. You see a lot of features that you also see in living birds
So this means that we can push the origin of birds back deeper into the Jurassic. This means we probably should be finding bird fossils that are... I don't know, like 160, 165 million years old. It's hard to say, but it definitely means there should be way more Jurassic bird fossils out there to find. Oh wow, that's a really big discovery. I'm just curious, as someone who thinks about this a lot, when you see birds flying around...
Hanging outside your house. What do you think about them? Dinosaur! I'm just kidding. Yeah, I mean, okay, like, I'm going to be completely honest that before I started studying birds, I paid very little attention to them. And now that I study them, I find them so fascinating. And I just can't believe that I...
that I've paid them so little heed before. And I think this is just an important message for everyone that, you know, until we start noticing something and paying attention to something and learning about it, we really can't value it, right? And so by studying birds and learning about just how fascinating they are, I've come to really appreciate them. And I also start to think, you know, like look at bird-like characteristics and then kind of...
Imagine theropod dinosaurs closely related to birds having similar characteristics. Like, have you seen how fast birds move? You know, when they move their heads in this incredibly fast, jerky way? So, you know, you can start to imagine dinosaurs having some similar movements, styles, some similar behaviors, and I think
I mean, I think it helps us to bring dinosaurs to life. For everyone who loves dinosaurs, you gotta love the living dinosaurs. You gotta appreciate birds and see what they can teach us about the dinosaurs that are now extinct. So awesome. Incredible. Thanks for answering our questions, Jingmei. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited that you want to learn about dinosaurs.
Now, because there's no such thing as too many dinosaurs in a classroom, or maybe there is, lots of them are pretty big. But anyway, here are more of your ideas about which dinos you'd like to show off at school. Hi, my name is Sophia and I'm from North Glen, Colorado. And the dinosaur that I would bring back for show and tell would be a stegosaurus because they only eat plants and they are really pretty.
I'm Ethan from Houston, Texas, and I'll bring the Mosasaurus to Show & Tell because it's the protector of disease. Hey, my name's Shepard, and I want to bring a raptor to Show & Tell because you can put a shadow on it and you and you can hop on it really easily, and you can also go very fast. Fun fact, do you know raptors are only the size of a poodle? Hi, my name is Iris. I'm from Memphis, Tennessee. I would bring a diplomatic kiss to school because me and my friends
could mess around saying it's name. For example, I like to say Zip Lodocus. And we can slide down and slide. And it wouldn't eat us because it is a herbivore. I am Caroline from Kingsville, Utah. I would bring a baby apatosaurus because that has been one of my favorite dinosaurs since I was little. I'm Ian from Minnesota and And I would bring over onto stories to show and tell.
because I could ride on its neck like a slide, and if I were on its head, it could sway its head back and forth, so it would act kind of like a swing. Thanks to Sophia, Ethan, Shepard, Iris, Caroline, and Ian for sending in those awesome ideas. The birds we know today evolved from a certain type of dinosaur called theropods millions and millions of years ago. We know that birds are linked to dinosaurs because of fossils. Scientists think birds survive the mass extinction.
because they evolved to be smaller, fly, and had beaks. Our understanding of dinosaurs will probably change them more and more we study and learn about. That's it for this episode of Brains On. This episode was written by... It was edited by... We had engineering help from Alex. Thank you.
Nico Gonzalez-Whistler, Lauren Humpert, Joshua Wright, Mark Sanchez, Charlotte Traver, Anna Weigel, and Aron Golda-Selassi. Beth Perlman is our executive producer, and the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to Vasudha Bharadwaj.
Brains On is a non-profit public radio program. There are lots of ways to support the show. Subscribe to Brains On Universe on YouTube where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes or head to brainson.org. While you're there, You can send us your mystery sounds, drawings, and questions. Okay, so Darth, are you ready to hear the mystery sound again? Yep. Come on. Here it is. Gracias. Thank you.
any new thoughts before you thought a trunk or a door on a car which seems like a really good guess to me do you have any other thoughts you want to stick with it what do you think I heard like a gas motor turning on. I don't know if I heard that, but it sounded like almost like a dirt bike or a motorcycle in the background.
I also heard something being moved around and colliding with metal or whatever. But I still think I'm going to stay my guess. Either a fancy door of a car being opened or a trunk being opened. I like your guess. I'm going to say a bird on a dirt bike. because I heard a bird. Amazing guess. And you thought, yeah, okay. Let's see if either of us are right. My name is Milo, and that was the sound of me closing my van door.
Oh my gosh, Siddharth. You got that 100% correct. Yes, I redeemed myself from last time. Last time I had like the most horrible guess. Oh my gosh, all of that training you've been doing has really paid off. Incredible works. Wow. You're a game show host and a successful mystery sound guesser. This is an exciting day. Thank you. Gracias. Gracias. you
Now it's time for the brain's honor roll. These are the incredible kids who keep the show going with their questions, ideas, mystery sounds, drawings, and high five. Siali from Nuku, Alofa, Tonga. Isabel from Stockholm, Sweden. Josiah from Charlotte, North Carolina. Leon from Auckland, New Zealand. Landon from Hastings, Minnesota. Fox from Portland, Oregon. Theo from Brooklyn, New York. Warren from Buckley, Washington. AJ from Wisconsin.
Dylan from California. Hazel and Alex from Port Hope, Ontario. Gemma and Esme from Merced, California. Noah from Santa Rosa, California. Charlie from California. Elias, Miles, and Riley from Vancouver, British Columbia. Eli from Santa Clara, California. Demetrius from Berk Hill, Ohio. Eli from San Francisco.
Leo from Sydney, Australia. Ni from Da Nang, Vietnam. Odette from Edmonton, Alberta. Ben from Durham, North Carolina. Isla from Cornwall, England. Eleanor from Madeira, Ohio. Frankie from Kansas City. Emery from Kensington, Maryland. Annalie from Wolf Point, Montana. Henry and Leo from Yadkinville, North Carolina. Thank you. Thank you. We'll be right back.
Ella from Louisville, Miles from Portland, Oregon, Brooke from Oakmont, Pennsylvania, Layla from Elisa, Viejo, California, Edie and Elliot from Bangor, Northern Ireland, Shannon from Short Hills, New Jersey, and William from Aurora, Ontario. We'll be back next week with an episode all about band-aids, bruises and scars. Thanks for listening.