40 percent death loss in 2 month old calves. Only from the first calf he and occurring within a 3 week span. What happened? We'll find out today on Science with Bc. This is Talks Talk. I'm Brad White here with Doctor. Scott Fritz, and it's Scott welcome. Interested to get into this case with you. How are you this morning? You know what we're doing well. This is a pretty good headline, which many of these cases
do make at times? Yeah. You have a a good start to this 1 in that it's a little bit unusual because you've got a, a cow calf herd. There's some first calf he. Some adult cows, both the first calf efforts and adult cows have calves. The death loss is only occurring. There's in cab from first calf efforts, but it had occurred at a significant rate and in a relatively short period of time, and I'm gonna go out on a, branch here and say, you probably had him do crops at the start. Yep.
It's always a good place to start. So this... You know, just like you said, this is the headline per s, I guess, brings up more questions than it does answers. And so, you know the fight out that there were cows and He and the cab were only from the first calf half first was a, you know, a step that we needed. We also found out that those 2 populations of cows were managed separately So the adult cows were managed basically as an isolated herd and the first half he
were managed as an isolated herd. There was no c ming between the 2. And so when I say managed, I'm talking about winter management from pulling off pasture in the fall, run through the winner and now it turn out. So these are spring cab, and these these calves are a couple months old. And the and the first thing, I mean, I start thinking about the normal stuff. Right? So scour... Respiratory disease. They're a little bit since they're
2 months old. They're a little bit outside my window when I would think of a big scour outbreak. And respiratory disease while it a curves and pre calves. It typically doesn't have this high mortality. It may have high morbidity, but a lot of times our pre calves don't have that high of a mortality. It 40 percent. Would that would that be kind of your feel? Yeah. And it's, you know, this is toxicology so we get to ignore infectious disease, but those are always in
places to start, which we always do. Right? And that's you know, trying to... We thought the same thing. They're too old for scholars. You know, the 40 percent death loss in 3 weeks and pre week cows from respiratory disease. Sounds weird, but then we started getting into the gross knee crop and they were, you know, the practitioner was mentioning some evidence or
respiratory disease. And so know, I think maybe that's the place to start and where we kinda get into our our diagnostic work workout. Yeah. So what did what did they find on just the gross knee crops? You know, they were really just saying there was pneumonia. They just described it as, you know, cra eventual consolidation. There was... They described Bro pneumonia is what I got over the phone.
They mentioned that there had been no response to inflammatory on microbial therapies of, you know, they tried a bunch of different things really didn't appreciate any response. So in pre winning Beard, I mentioned in some of the work that we've done previously, it it is about 1 and 5 herd. Will have an issue with pre B d. And in those herd that have an issue with pre B d, only about 15 to 20 percent of the
calves are typically affected. Now, certainly, you could have a higher outbreak, but but also, I mentioned pretty low mortality. So it's surprising that these calves would be affected in that shorter of time frame and actually at this time because most of our pre B would occur around the 456 month of age range in those calves. So... But they're finding it here, is it is it possible that it... It's just b or did they have any adjunct signs that they saw it either in the live cab or...
At bankruptcy. Yeah. So the, I guess the clinical syndrome they described. I guess we should back up just a little bit. So these caps had been branded and vaccinated at branding at and then turned out. And by I turned out, as they were let out, they were trail down the road, and I don't remember how far It was over a mile that they walked these pears down the road, and turned into a pasture. And so you have that kind of temporal
association with processing. Right? So that, you know, either some questions there, But as they got out on pasture, they would see these calves, they said they would be somewhat, you know, clinically normal, then they would go stern ladder to really rec overcome and then die pretty quickly, you know, within a couple hours enough time where they could see them, try to do something, but then they would die anyway.
And I only those and a little bit different management for the calves from he than the calves from cows and that the calves from cows weren't trail as far. But everybody got the same things at processing or branding time. Right? Yep. Same, yeah, Same shop protocol, everything. So that makes it a little bit lower on my list that there's something going on with the vaccines or any other procedures that we're done. So just because it's only affecting this 1 group or seems to be affecting
them worse than the others. So at at gross knee, basically saw some pneumonia, but that... They kinda wanted to keep going because didn't see enough necessarily there that they thought was causing all of the problems. No. And they, you know, kinda mentioned with the rec if those calves would try to stand and they would, you know, you get some tremble in the muscles of the high legs. They they... The word they do use was weakness.
And so, you know, which certainly could be with respiratory disease, but like we've talked it just doesn't. It would be abnormal for pre winning respiratory disease to have that big of a problem. So we recommend just sending in as we always do a pretty robust submission just to make sure that we can rule out things, you know, if we don't have, we can't do it, but if we have, it doesn't mean we need to test it kind of thing. Just Yep. And so what what all did they send in? What samples did you
want them to send? So would... We always talk about liver and kidney for talks, liver the metabolic organ and kidneys tip? Weekly ex excruciating, heart, spleen, brain, if we can get it ocular fluid, those kind of things lung in this case, wouldn't it add some lesions in it. Weekly and then we wanted some skeletal muscle just because of the... You know, they described the
weakness. And honestly, if we can get heart, diaphragm tongue and skeletal we can do a pretty robust rule out of anything that causes a from a to perspective. And so are you looking at fresh and fixed samples of those? Of those tissues or do you want fixed only or fresh only? Fresh fix both. Yeah. So the pistol pathology needs the fixed? Typically, toxicology needs fresh, and culture and that kind of thing also
needs fresh tissue. So... So when we talk about sending those samples, especially fresh sample, and let's say we're in a time of warm weather or extreme cold weather. What kind of care do Have to take in packing those or how quick do I need to get them to the lab to make sure that the fresh samples are fresh. Do the best you can. So it's... If you can get them out and on ice as fast as you can if you can't ship them that day, throw them in the fridge.
Ideally, you can get them in a box on ice and get them on their way as fast as you possibly can. If I have to hold them overnight, should Put... You you mentioned the fridge or should I drop them in the freezer? Does that change anything if I freeze and t samples or or would you rather have them just chilled. It really depends on your timeline. So if it's Thursday on holiday weekend and you can't ship it till Monday, we're not gonna get until Tuesday, freezing, it's probably not a bad
idea. You don't freeze anything you wanna look at under the microscope, though. Don't don't freeze any of the his paths that the fixed sample. Keep the fixed stuff just informal, Otherwise, if it's just gonna be overnight, I would just keep them in the fridge. K. Excellent. Alright. So you got some samples in this case and what did you start to see on the his pathology? So, on his path only they confirmed an
pneumonia, it's not that difficult to see. And I've looked at the slides, there was, you know, there was some pretty severe consolidation in some areas of those lungs. Think we had lungs off of 3 different calves. 2 of them had pretty severe pneumonia. 1 of them had none at all. And so, you know, it's still dead, but it didn't have the pneumonia. So kinda... You start questioning things.
Did some his path on the muscle and started seeing degeneration necrosis some mineral visualization of those my sites both in the cardiac muscle and in the skeletal muscle. What does that what does that make you think of when you see that? What are your differentials for a my in a calf young? Half this young, the first things, vitamin E or s millennium, you know, kind of a nutritional, other less likely things, Ion forces would be
on that list. Yeah. To to with the ion for and the vitamin e look similarly. Again, I'm not a pathologist, so maybe there are some subtle differences, but... Yeah but we gotta loop all my office together in that way. K. So let's explore that Ion for 1 just a bit because, if if they had an ina exposure to a higher dose of ion, say there was a mixing error in a creep feed, that might fit in the scenario? These cab are still a little bit young to be eating much, But is is something like that
possible. Is that what you're describing with... When you say on forth? Yeah. That's possible. And we've seen some... We've seen some cases. There are ion fours in dr products that are not meant to be dr, but are dr anyway, that we've seen some issues with that, The dose, they're just not a big safety factor on those when you use those concentrated products,
It's hard to do that. It's So a a dr that they would be administering to calves for some other disease that has an eye for in it if they overdose these little calves. You certainly could see an issue. Yeah. Certainly could. And typically with cattle, the lesions are mainly isolated in the cardiac muscle. In this particular case, the skeletal muscle lesions were more severe, so that also made a little less likely for us.
It's confusing though when you go to Know this is Bo science, but in in small rum it's and pigs, it's more of a skeletal muscle issue. But in in cattle, on toxicity mainly cardiac. Yep. So it's still 1 of the things on our list and you wanna investigate. I think it's important to talk about because sometimes we use... On for so ubiquitous. We forget that they have those toxic principles. So and we know what in another species. Right? There's other species way more sensitive.
Than cattle. But in in this case, you did some investigation see and and basically confirmed no ion for exposure that we could track down in any way. Yeah. They didn't have creep feet out yet. They had just been turned in. They weren't giving anything at the
time. Of, you know, I've we've seen some cases even where people bolus of Mu really, which is obviously not outs it's meant to be used, but there were some thoughts that it would maybe protect from Cox city, which know, anyway, That would be the reason people be using it. Especially in cab of this age is worried about Cox City. Right. Right? So here, we don't think On for and it's
got... Skeletal muscle involvement. So you're leaning more towards vitamin e, deficiency, a lot of times when we talk about vitamin e s millennium is is part of that discussion. Did you do any follow up tests for vitamin e and or millennium? Yeah. So we we'll typically do vitamin e and millennium and liver. Most mortem on these cases. And the s millennium, in my experience is less likely. And I... Part of that's because Sole palladium is legally
regulated everybody knows that we need it. And so it's typically supplied in Cal mineral, like it's supposed to be... We just don't see a s millennium deficiency that often. And those 2 things and and maybe it's just as I remember it, linked together vitamin E millennium, but you're saying you see vitamin e deficiency way more commonly than us millennium deficiency. See even if they're in a s
millennium deficient area. Yes. So and honestly, the s millennium deficient area seem like we run into more s millennium toxic in those cases, and I think it's just over supplementation. You know, the areas of the country with high sal palladium and forage and that kind of thing I already know it. And so they're less likely to overdo it, and I think. What signs would I see with millennium deficiency versus toxic? See The deficiency is what is... It been classically described as white muscle
disease, and there... It's always linked together vitamin e millennium deficiency. And that's it's typically... I mean, what we're talking about here is is pretty much how it's described. You... It's a... You get pale muscles they're... You get necrosis mineral visualization that kind of thing. S toxicity. There it depends if we're talking the acute form or the chronic form. The acute is more of a cardiac collapse.
And so you get... You know, you... It's kinda hard to distinguish sometimes, but you get this big fl be hard and a bunch of fluid backup, and they... You know, they'll... It's usually after an injection, and they're gonna die within 24, 48 hours. The chronic form then is the hair and of lesions that we've all been, you know, I we think about it more in horse you get the horizontal cracks that never grow out. And those oils will actually s off if you give them enough time. You know, the
hair gets pretty brittle. So you get ce titanium that supplement... As that substitutes and ke makes it pretty weak. So you get some hair breakage and that kind of thing. So... And and that would be the more chronic form of s millennium. Toxicity. And in in this case, s millennium normal. So let's let's talk vitamin e a little bit. What are the expected signs that you would see with vitamin e, deficiency and is it possible to clinically differentiate it from millennium deficiency? No. It's it's
also would be white muscle. Disease, and you can't separate it until you do some analysis like we did post mortem, it would be identical. K. So back to these cases... Grossly with this information in hand, did you... Were you able to look at the heart or talk to the veterinarian that was involved and say, okay, what did the what did the hearts look like that we see any signs of of heart disease? We asked and even, you know, how... What was the color of the skeletal muscle, and that
can be hard to appreciate. I think It especially if it's weed need crops to him and if it's summer winter, what I? I think cat, young calves are pale anyway. You know, a lot of them are born iron are fish deficient. I... It's hard for me to sort that out. And you've seen V. Right? It's pretty pale and Yeah. I I don't put a lot of faith, I guess, in the color of muscle at and knee grabs. Too. Yeah. Hard to tell. Would you expect the hearts to be enlarged or miss?
No. I don't think I would. You know, there... They may be a little bit more fl team you know, you may appreciate some congestion in different body cavities, but you might not. Yeah. Because in these in these little calves, you you'd expect that heart to be relatively tu and should certainly be heart shaped. So any any fl ness would seem to be pretty
abnormal for a lot of these calves. But they didn't they didn't see any of that as you talk through So to tell me a little bit about the process of vitamin e deficiency, because I'm trying to think through... What would be their typical source of item e, how much storage reserves do they have? Would they have got it from their dams?
Should they get it in the milk? Tell tell me about the process of vitamin e. So the the vitamin e status of the calf is gonna be dependent upon the c. So they're gonna get most of, you know, it transfers across the placenta a little bit better than vitamin a, but I would just ignore that. Everything they're gonna get gonna come through the C, and so it's all lost quality. It's probably gonna be related to the ration of those he.
As they were fed through the winter. And, you know, it I was worried about the calf from the cows on this her too. Just, you know, they could have been teeter on the edge and we just didn't push them as hard as we did on this group, and And, you know, when I've seen big outbreaks like this, it almost seems like there's some sort of physical exercise that goes into it to set them up to have a big... Big episode like this. So if we have a my skeletal the muscle cardiac muscle, exercise
would not be the recommended course. Right Really. Could help be exacerbate whatever clinical signs we're seeing. Yeah. So it it's hard to sort out, You know, we're we're this far after the fact and trying to go back and You know, maybe the ration was formulated appropriately, but the vitamin pack had been on in storage for a long time. And we know those fast soluble vitamins will decrease with storage and they can almost deplete to where there's almost none in there depending
on storage conditions. And when you try to go sort back through that on a product that's already gone. It it's really difficult to do. So in the... You said the vitamin e's is gonna transfer mostly in the c, we'll... That calf get any from external sources as he's nursing the dam or once he's passed the classroom and his got has clothes. He's not gonna get any vitamin any from anywhere else? Does he get some from the milk or anywhere else in the environment? There won't be a lot of milk.
It'll be once he starts. You know, consuming his own feed, he will, you know, when you get... When he transitions off a milk diet, but they'll... You know, they, the way nature happens the cow intentionally loads that calf or whatever he's gonna need for storage for the first couple months of life. And is that stored in the liver, and then he uses it from there? Stored and
liver. And it's it's mainly an antioxidant. And so I think what really sets these calves up as you go through that big physical exert type thing. In this case, walking them, yep mile and a half down the road, you know, which doesn't sound that far, but Yeah teeter on the edge. I think that's enough, and you just start getting some of those reactive oxygen species from the muscle damage and they just can't handle it. And does that tie in in any way to our pneumonia that we found in a few of
these caps? Is this with this have been helping our immune system or can't the lack of it, thereby hurting the immune system? Yeah. I think it's it's safe to say that the vitamin need deficiency didn't help with the pneumonia stuff. It I'd probably set them up. The fact that there were calves that were dead without pneumonia, I think gives credence that the pneumonia is more of a secondary issue. So if you're thinking about preventing this, next
time. Obviously, vitamin E management sounds like cow, nutrition, he for nutrition more so than something I would do with the calves. Yeah. Which common for a lot of the things we deal with. Right? Is that that nutrition on the cow herd is very, very important. And when you it's kinda of the bottom of the pyramid and when it's faulty then the pyramid doesn't stack very high. So do I
need to have a specific diet? Those cows are on during in a certain period or or rather, I need to really concentrate the last few months before they have or is it a year round nutrition that I... Should be worried about on that cow to prevent this in the caps.
So vitamin ease a fat soluble volume vitamin and they should pick it up as they're forging naturally, and there should be some in the stored forge, but that's gonna deeply even in the store forge about the time where that last trimester where we're really ramping up and their metabolic demands through the roof, but honestly, most winter call rations are already formulated enough to provide that. It just... That's what begs the question. We don't really know why in this case.
Was there something that happened either with the formulation or the actual product that went in there, something there was not right to set these calls up? So you're saying in in hay, we say store forage. I'm thinking hay. And if I make the hay in the early summer, Store it all the way through to the end of the next winter right for my cows are having. I wouldn't expect to have a lot of vitamin e in my hay, But if I'm providing some sort of supplement, that's where they would get it. Is that...
Am I yep. Hearing that correctly? Because I kinda think the same thing vitamin a would be similar? Yeah. We... You know, we kinda loop them to lump them together and it's all in green, growing forage, fresh forge is the perfect source. Those cows are built to extract that and store it.
You know, they they're used to not having that during the winter, and so they store it up over the summer, but it's, you know, it's not hard to supplement them, and like you're saying through a vitamin and mineral pack and some sort of concentrator supplement that they're feeding over the winter. Now would you give in this case, if we go back to this case when you figured this out,
what's the first action treatment wise? Do you go in and give those cab an an injection of Ad and e or do you do do you do something else for them or try to provide mineral at that point? So the easiest band aid is to inject it, and there... There's a plethora of... Do vitamin e and S millennium products out there. I don't know that one's any better than the other. The challenge with this 1 is they return to pasture and that sure was enormous in this case and that wasn't gonna get done.
Mean, so I guess you just hope you get through it until they start forging on their own and and picking it up naturally. Yeah. So if these, you know, if these calves were still wherever they ka hadn't gone through yet, and they were seeing it prior to the processing, we sure could have had an injection, but timing didn't work out in our favor in this case. So let's say we could do
an injection. And in this case, up a little bit, maybe based on your earlier comments, I'm a little bit concerned because I've got a lot of times vitamin e and s millennium are together? These guys are normal on millennium, They're low on vitamin e. Do I have to worry about inducing a s millennium toxicity. A by creating a problem by fixing the last 1. I would say no. And it's... As long as you're injecting the proper appropriate volume for the weight to the calf. You
shouldn't. Let most spike in the liver for the first 24, 48 hours and then they'll eliminate that. And we've got... There's quite a bit of work showing the kinetics of that. It... Where we see the the acute injectable toxic c is when it's a, you know, we've set the syringe for 6 way calves, and then we got a tailed 200 pounder, you know, at the end of the cabin period comes through, and that's where the problem
is. So be sure if you're given those injections, especially with s millennium that we're at the right weight for the right calf, meaning, I may have to change it. If I'm running through calves that are born over a hundred day period. I'm gonna have a a big weight period in that group. Yep. That's a... You know, that's at
least where we see it. So anything else that you would do in this case, Ideally, we'd give an injection, but they couldn't do it here, so they got them on green grass, anything that you would do either to manage it now or prevent it in the future besides what we've discussed
We kinda wrestled with that. You do you try to round them back up and just inject him, but we just talked about how exercise kinda sets him up for that and as big as this pasture as they would have been some exercise involved. And so it it really was a kind of a internal battle on what we do with them, and some you know, we're... I guess we're hoping that the problem has gone away. Now as far as trying to avoid it, this 1, you never would have figured it out until it started happening.
Because, you know, the the rational was formulated appropriately. We figured out after the fact, but there had to been something either it got missed in the inclusion, the the mineral pack had been stored for a lot, I don't know. And we're never gonna find that out. But something happened there that didn't... That wasn't supposed to happen, and we just... Were not gonna figure it out until you have this kind of disaster on the other end. So, do you the best you
can to try to prevent it. But then I think the the other take home here is relatively early in the process. They did some further diagnostic. To figure it out. Right? Sooner you figure this out sooner we can come up with the solution to move forward. Yep. Try to make some decisions, but that obviously, in this case, there was a lot of balancing going on there. Excellent. It's any places to find more resources on vitamin e and or s millennium deficiency? Yeah.
There's some some show notes on the website and we'll have a... Know, kind of a white paper right up up there to provide some more references and sources if anybody wants to do some more reading. Excellent. There's a toxicology tab right on the beast website. If you have a toxicology case you'd like us to talk about, you can send us an email at bc at k u dot edu d u