As synchronization programs, great when they work, challenging when something happens to cause it to not be as you blend. What do we do when mistakes are made? We'll find out today on Bo Science with Bc. I'm Brad White joined today by Doctor. Bob Larson. He's a thorough here at Kansas State University.
Good morning, Bob. Good morning. So we've got an opportunity here to talk about times we've messed up in the past and how we can learn from our mistakes and there there's a really nice paper that summarizes, and and I like this because as a veterinarian and you work with your clients, you're doing enough synchronization programs, at some point, something's gonna get messed up. Let's maybe describe this paper and then we'll jump in and talk about what do we
do different? You betcha. So this was a paper published in, clinical theory by, in 20 23, by Jessica K. And so this was a a veterinarian. She's she's a reproductive specialist at at Auburn University. She's actually a case state grad. We had her in class a few years ago now. Ago. Yep. But she's gone on for additional training, and has really become you know, 1 of the young, I'm still gonna call our young leaders in some reproduction technology and and teaching. There at Auburn. And so she did a
really nice job. She and her c author, Ama horn did a really nice job pulling together, is a practical question of, synchronization protocols can be a little bit complex, and and they timing is important in those protocols to set cattle up for a lot of times we're talking about a timed examination or AAA timing or breeding by appointment. And so mistakes happen. We're dealing with humans, we're with people, and then just you know, And some of these protocols are pretty darn
complex. Yep. Yep. Right. There's days and times and multiple different drugs. You're using, you know, 2 or 3 different drugs and very pacific times, it's possible to switch the drugs. It's possible to to miss. You know, I... Oh, we were supposed to do that yesterday. And for some reason, it got put on the calendar for today or tomorrow and how much does that matter. Those are the types of questions that a veterinarian gets for their clients. If if... Again, if
you have any clients... Do you have very many clients at all that are doing astra synchronization protocols, you will get that call once in a. And you get those Yes. Every year. Every year. Every year. And and so what I really like about this paper is the authors did a really nice job of going through really what are my options. And they and they gave us 4 options to do if you... For some reason, the protocol doesn't go as
planned. And a and again, there's lots of reasons, there's just errors, there's you know, something happens somewhere else on the farming operation that that just... It just doesn't happen. And and so we we understand that. So they did a really nice job of saying, okay. Really... And they put it into 4 categories. And I'm gonna say 4 with 1 of them kind of being 4 a and 4 but, the the first 1 is 1 that might work a lot of times, and that is to just start over again. So maybe you...
This would be an example where maybe you were supposed to give, GRH. Gonna t releasing hormone on a certain day, and you make... You messed up the bottles, and you gave pros land out on the first day. 1 of the things you can do is just kinda wait a few days and re, you know, restart the protocol and start with what you were supposed to do on day 1. Now, the disadvantage of that is, it it moves all my timing back. You know? So if I move back a week
or 2 weeks or something like that. Moved everything back, and that may have been 1 of the main reasons I wanted to synchronize was to, you know, get that first breeding in on a specific date. And so the veterinarian and the client need to have an honest conversation about well, why exactly are you why why are we doing this synchronization protocol. What are all in some of the reasons are to get the breeding season started really early to kind of front load some of
those cows. Sometimes it's... I really really want some replacement he to be born from these Ai pregnancies. There there's something specific I want from the Ai cy that I've of selected. And, you know, for a pure red herd, it might be, you know, some specific mating that you want. For a commercial herd, it's usually about timing, and, you know, some of the specific things that I want to get from that Ai pregnancy. And so moving it back 2 weeks might be very doable or it might be a big
problem. And and we need to have that conversation. Yeah. Could be fine or completely unacceptable. But but starting over as 1 of your options, and you and you kinda wait depending on what the mistake was, will impact the length of time that you wait. And you said there were 4 options, So starting over is the first 1. What's the second option? Alright. So the second option is what basically to kinda give up. And and that might be similar to what we were. So To put... I didn't put that 1 last.
If I was doing them in order, I couldn't give up last. I I think it's because it's a it's a it's a legitimate option. And again, think about a commercial producer where they were doing this, so that, you know, that, you know, they're aiming for maybe having to start on March 1 or having to start on March fifteenth or something like that. And it's it's important to them that that they get started then. And if our... All of our options basically mean well we're gonna move that Ai breeding later.
That that may not work, and that say, well, we're gonna gonna kinda scrap what we've done and turn bowls out and eat... You know, so now, what are some of the challenges? Make sure I've got enough bow power. We're because I was planning on getting you know, some of the mating done with artificial ins contamination. I need to make sure I've got enough power. Got the rest breeding season ready to go. But I think that is a legitimate
option. You know, when we talk about these 4 options, I think that's a legitimate 1 to. Again, had an honest conversation with the client about what... What's gonna happen? And with my... I give up scenario. You mentioned bow power, but also I have to understand what are the implications of what I've done to this point? Right. So for example, if I gave him 1 shot of plastic land and how many those cows are gonna be
already synchronized. Yeah. Quite a few. Yeah. And so I my bow power needs to be really ready to go right when those... That group of animals comes in. Couple other things that they they brought out in this paper that I thought was a good good observation. 1 was kinda the the earlier in the process, you know. So if I catch this mistake early, that's when restarting might work pretty well. In in contrast, I I don't identify that I... Made some mistakes until, like, we're about ready to start
examination, but this isn't gonna work. That might be a situation where you just give up. And so even the timing of when the mistake mistake is identified influences this decision. And you know, maybe part of this conversation that you and I are having is as a veterinarian you get these phone calls. Well, it's not a 1 size fits all answer? You know, I I need to talk to the producer. What exactly went wrong. Where are we in the
product? Call, and what are your goals? Because those are gonna influence the choices that I make. But restarting, particularly if I discover it early, It's not gonna be that much of a delay. Let's just restart it. Great option. Didn't discover it till late. I'm really kinda worried that that it would be a really poor performance if we went ahead. That may be a time to just give up and say, we'll do this next year. K. So start over, give up what's your
third option? The third 1 is another 1 that that requires some knowledge of synchronization protocols and really what are out there. But that is basically to transfer what you were doing to a different protocol. And so, that might mean, just changing the timing of the other parts of the protocol, so maybe leave the progesterone in place longer, changing the timing of the, the pros plan and injection, those types of
things. So, basically, you you're just converting the protocol that I planned to a different known and proven protocol. And and again, that can work if if everything's lined up just right. And and so... But it does take some knowledge of those protocols And you, I think I've said on some other podcasts that 1 of my sources for this is the beef reproduction task force. They have a,
website. They do a really good job. They do a great job of, kind of laying out in a picture format, the different protocols, and they have even some, online tools that you can put in, you know, dates when you want to breed and the protocol you wanna use. And so the beef reproduction task force website is a great place to kinda refresh, you know, So if I'm a veterinarian and I get this call And my... 1 of my questions is, well, can I just convert what they've done so far into
a different protocol? I'm probably gonna have to look that up. And and look and see what's really out there. But that that... If it works, that's a really good option. K. So. And which is similar to kind of the last option, which is to modify. Yeah. Now the last 1, the modification and... A lot of times when I'm talking about modifying a protocol. It is, you know, say, a protocol might be that you're going to leave a cedar in for 5 days or 7 days, and I just leave it in a little bit longer.
And I I adjust, you know, when I give my injection it might be that I I switched to adding a pros gland and right at the time I take the cedar out, which is not typical or or might be typical, but it wouldn't be for all protocols. And so you just change some of those protocols, and it's not and how this is different than the 1 we just talked about is, it's not really any of the protocols
on that website that I talked about. It's kind of a hybrid of a couple of protocols and it should work, but it's probably not gonna work quite as well as originally intended. And and that's where, again, some real good communication with your client because this this the fourth protocol... The fourth option is, tweak protocol, make it as good as it can be given the mistakes you made, and we're gonna still try to get a bunch of cow bread Ai. But 1 thing is you might wanna lower your expectations.
You might wanna be ready to turn cleanup bowls in, soon as the protocols over, you know, so basically, you're gonna make some adjustments. K? So your 4 options that you've given us for these different protocols are start over. Give up, switch the protocol or modify. Yep. Everything falls into 1 of those categories. Yeah. And on the modify, I kinda said I've got a 4 and A4B. And and 4 is if you're going to do some est
detection. In other words, it's not timed ins contamination gonna detect Asterisk for, you know, 3 or 4 or 5 days and breed, you know, based on Est. The reality is you've... You can mess up the protocol and that can still work because when I say mess up a protocol. A lot of times what I'm saying is for a timed examination those cows aren't gonna all ob in as tied window as I originally planned. If I'm using Esther detection.
It's okay if they spread out over a few days because I've got the labor in the facilities and the expertise to to observe for Est, you know, at least a couple of times a day, spread and be breeding over several days rather than at 1 time point. So 4 a is, you know, just your protocol, but add est detection or maybe that was gonna be your plan anyway. Now we're no longer tied into having a really tight window for populations and charge on. The 4 b is... No. We're we're gonna do
a timed examination. Right? It just probably won't be as... Not as high percentage of the cows are gonna o in the window that I wanted them to. So these authors and I would agree with them. Maybe that's not the place to use
really expensive scene. Maybe that's a place where you turn in cleanup bowls rather than keeping cleanup bowls out for a few weeks, so that you can tell the difference between Ai pregnancies and bull pregnancies just turn the bulls in, you know, 12 hours after you've vet finished your Ai you know, a day, and get them in there. So because I know there's still cows coming into heat, away from that window that I originally planned. So kind of 4 is well, add a est detection. For b is charge on,
but lower your expectations be prepared for... This isn't gonna be the best breed I've ever had. K? So given that we have those options, and this is a really good paper explaining them. I'm gonna give you some specific scenarios. Okay. And you decide which of those 4 options you want to do. Okay. Alright? And, luckily, I didn't prepare you for this. So you could go off the top of your head. Alright. Option 1, I have a group of commercial cows that I'm planning to do fixed time Ai.
And my rationale is I want them to continue calvin at the first of the calvin season, and I'm gonna do a 7 day c cedar, 7 day c plus cedar, which means I'm giving G h on day 0, along with putting in a cedar, day 7 pros landing, 66 hours later. I'll give GRH and a. That's my plan. That's a pretty common protocol. Yeah. I call you on day 3, and I say instead of giving G h on day 0, I gave pros landed. Mh. Now you would recommend I start over, give up, switch protocol
or modify. Well, honestly, all 4 are on the table, and they might be right for a certain situation. This is 1 where, yeah, switching protocols might work really well and that you could switch to a different protocol where you do give pros land on the first day of the cedar that place the cedar. I just leave the cedar in for 14 days. Instead of the the typical 7 days. Now what that has done is it's dropped my eyes fixed time Ai back a week. Yeah. So then I lost a week. Yep. I lost
a week. Is that okay? Is can I get the the the the ins inc, they are are a week later? It is a... And then my cows are gonna have a week later. And I that's not necessarily ideal, but how how big a deal is that. So that is 1 of the options we could talk about is. We could just switch to a different protocol. And and have pretty good... And I would say equal success is just gonna be a week later. The other thing we could do is for a or 4 b in that, if you had the ability to
do some sync... Or s detection. Just kinda charge on with that protocol and do what you were supposed to do, which is actually a pros landing at the day you remove the cedar. I probably don't have quite as good as sync. It's not gonna give me that great timed examination breed up that I want, but if I'm doing Est detection. That'll be fine. I could even charge ahead and just do the time examination there. It's just not gonna... I'm not gonna get my the best breed up that I would have if I
done the protocol right. So if I was the veterinarian and then I got that call, I would want to... Honestly, I, I refer to have that face to face conversation with the client and really help them understand the pluses and minuses of each of their options. So and I think that's a really good point because all of them are on the table for each of these. It's not like there's a singular best fit where I'm gonna give you a problem year to go, oh, you
have to do this. Right. Alright. Alright. So let me give you another problem. I'm going to... I have he that I would like to breed, and I would really like to get them bread Ai because I'm making the genetic lines that I want. So I am I want them bread Ai. Based on your recommendation, I appreciate recommending this program for me. I'm gonna do a 14 day cedar, pros and timed Ai. So I put in a cedar on day 0, take it out on day 14, then we do pros landing on day 30, GRH and Ai,
couple days later. Yeah. You told me these he because I put them together from a couple different sources. You told me that I should watch after I took cedar out and see if any of them how do they do coming into heat. Right? They should have a heat afterwards. I watched pretty closely. I put in for 2 weeks. I took it out. I watched pretty darn closely, and I didn't see any of them in heat. So I called you, and I'm going what now, Which of my 4, start over, give up, switch protocol modify.
Alright. Well, this... This this would be 1 where I would need to... First of all, I'm really glad my client called me because if they hadn't and it just charged on with what they were planning to do. It's not gonna work. It's not gonna Is not gonna work. He need to audio, need to show asterisk in order to get pregnant. And so I On. I'm writing it down. Yeah. Write that 1 down. And so this is 1 where, you gotta really investigate what's going on here. It. Is are the he,
I and I'd pal the he. I'd I'd I'd... I would go in and evaluate those he. Had they reach puberty? Is this a good group to have started this synchronization protocol? If it's even possible things like, well, We've got Mg in the feed, either on purpose or accidentally or whatever. There's something not going well. I am probably going to scrap this 1. Yeah. I I mean, we're late enough into
this. I'm probably going to scrap it. Although I will say those other options are on the table in a given situation, I might choose 1 of the other options switched to a different protocol, restart. Those types of things. But this is 1... It was discovered late, and it has some evidence that this is not a group that that charging ahead and doing the protocol as originally planned. That's probably the the worst option. So we got time for me to give you 1 more. Okay. I'm ready
for. So this time, I'm doing my he, and it's it's mostly that I want to get them synced early because I'm feeding them in a dry lot, I'm gonna use Mg. Instead of instead of going with Cedar. And I'm gonna use the Mg, pros and in timed Ai. Alright. And the... That protocol requires me to feed Mg for 14 days. 19 days later, give a pros landing, then breed 3 days later with G at the time of breeding. My goal, get them bread early, but I've started them on feed on Mg, and I call you 1 weekend,
and I say, this stuff's not working. I've got He cycling. I see about 5 percent of them a day cycling in this pen. What should I do? Alright. Well, again, I'm really glad that my client called me because that's not supposed to happen. We we shouldn't have animals breaking through showing Est after they've been on Ng for a week. Again, we're gonna evaluate what is going on there. I might evaluate some of the He just to see, you know, exactly what is it that he's seeing.
But this is 1 where... Really, I've got 2 options. Alright, well, actually, I've got all 4 to be honest So gonna narrow down to. I'm gonna narrow it down to 2 that I would probably lean towards. 1 is, well, fix the problem. You know, is the is the feed wasn't ordered correctly or the mill didn't do something right, and and it doesn't have the mg in it that the level that I want? Is there something wrong with the feeding mechanisms where I don't have not bunk space
and some animals aren't getting their Mg? Or aren't getting their feet every day. You know, try to figure out why, obviously, these he aren't getting the dose of Mg that they need on a daily basis. So figure out why and fix that. But we're a week late. So 1 thing I could do is just extend that instead of Mg for 14 days, go 21 days. That ideal? No? Assuming I fixed the problem. Assuming I fixed the problem, I basically just restart right the day that
I get it fixed. So, hopefully, today or tomorrow I'll get it fixed and I think that's a a legitimate option. It might decrease my breed up a little bit, but I don't expect it to decrease it tremendously. So that kinda restart would be on the table for this 1. The other 1 is and this one's, I I'm pausing. I could still fix it and finish off in 14 days rather than 21.
And still go ahead with the protocol, my pros landing in 33 days after I started, and basically, so I basically finish off the protocol the way it is after I've fixed the m mg delivery problem, and it's kind of into that 4 b. I'm gonna continue. I'm gonna do what I was planning to do. I'm not gonna have quite as good of of successes I would have, but if my goal is, well, Don't wanna drop it back a week. I don't want to delay anything.
We'll we'll charge on and fix it and fit and just do the protocol on the days that they had planned. I'm just probably not getting get quite as good to breed up as I would have gotten. And and again, so much of this involves communication and and really understanding the pluses and minuses each of those 4 options. So common problems put them in those different solutions, but it's all based on the context or the situation
where you are. So I really appreciate you walking us through some of those and I like the 4 solutions from that article by Jessica K. And they said you can either start over, give up switch protocols or modify, which is your 4 and 4 b. So appreciate you sharing with us today, Bob. You bet. Thank you.