Frontier Lines: Travels, Trials, and the Claude Controversy

[SPEAKER_00]: And now, it's the better with bourbon podcast, with Brad Martno, and Deacon Palmer, fast-thinking, and smooth-drink-in. [SPEAKER_02]: The views in opinion shared on the better with bourbon podcast are our own, and those of our guests. [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing we discussed should be taken as financial, legal, business, or gambling advice. [SPEAKER_02]: Don't make investment, business, or betting decisions based on our conversations as you should always talk to a qualified professional.

[SPEAKER_02]: Always drink responsibly, never drink and drive, and only consume alcohol if you are of legal drinking age. [SPEAKER_06]: So, um, the flight was pretty good, you know, but, you know, I can't really talk about it later. [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, Mitchell's, it's, uh, better with Bourbon podcast episode six. [SPEAKER_06]: It's February 25th.

[SPEAKER_07]: and we are in the better with bourbon studios here in the end of Pennsylvania back in the state back in the state of Pennsylvania we both traveled a little bit so we're just gonna kind of kick it what was your travels where'd you go would you do well I want to visit the dear friends out in Palm Springs I've been asking us to visit them out there so Tony when I went out there and I did not golf like you but she did and she shot in 86 with the borrowed set of clubs

[SPEAKER_07]: I want to be first rounds this year in California, so I've got to be my wife. [SPEAKER_07]: That's why she's a running Indiana Country Club, one in the champion. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, for how many years? [SPEAKER_07]: Best screens. [SPEAKER_06]: Best screens in the world. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, in best screens in the world. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Where did you play? [SPEAKER_06]: Who'd you visit? [SPEAKER_07]: Well, the Donlies, Mike, Mike and Linda. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_06]: I was at them. [SPEAKER_07]: They live right on the one course in the Western beautiful track. [SPEAKER_07]: I got the walk at with Linda the one day. [SPEAKER_07]: Talk to all the old folks there and pet the dogs. [SPEAKER_07]: It was awesome. [SPEAKER_07]: Eat some fruit off the trees, get some dirty looks from them. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, of course. [SPEAKER_06]: He said it by us. [SPEAKER_06]: He actually called me while we were on the golf course yesterday.

[SPEAKER_06]: And I said, hey, I'm going to have to call you back. [SPEAKER_06]: And I called him today while I was driving back. [SPEAKER_06]: He, you know, we have a stock that we go back and forth on for many, many years. [SPEAKER_06]: I told him a couple of years ago, you got a gold stock. [SPEAKER_06]: You got to pick this up, you got to take a look at it. [SPEAKER_06]: And he's actually followed the advice.

[SPEAKER_06]: calls with questions every now and again, which I appreciate very much. [SPEAKER_06]: It's great. [SPEAKER_06]: But he said the weather today. [SPEAKER_06]: He's like, yeah, about 90 today. [SPEAKER_06]: Right. [SPEAKER_06]: I know you, but you guys got great weather, right? [SPEAKER_07]: We had it just in stride. [SPEAKER_07]: I think it was like 65 the first day and then it went up to 75, 80. [SPEAKER_07]: It was right in the mid 70s.

[SPEAKER_07]: It was in your walking around in that and the sun. [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it was pure blue skies, snow cap mountains for the first time this year, I guess. [SPEAKER_07]: And it was pretty cool. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Cali. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's fun to make fun of California when you're in Pennsylvania, but then you get to California and you realize It's fucking California. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, nobody's writing songs about Pennsylvania. [SPEAKER_06]: They're like a million songs.

[SPEAKER_06]: There was a more expensive. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, that's a truth. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And if you if we had [SPEAKER_06]: I don't even know if I should do it, but I'm going to do it anyway. [SPEAKER_06]: We spent a lot of time on the golf courses down where I was. [SPEAKER_06]: Who were you with? [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so we went down Bobby Marcus, Ricky, and Barry McNight, Bob arranged a he's a member of this.

[SPEAKER_06]: I can speak a case in club called Inspirato. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the American Express, like, Yeah, I mean, he arranged and talk about super generous buddy. [SPEAKER_06]: He arranged the house and just said, I got the house, you guys get down, you know, but he took care of the house, which was beautiful. [SPEAKER_06]: We had, it's a house that has, like, four master suites, the bathrooms were all beautiful.

[SPEAKER_06]: Giant party area up top, main living areas up top, third floor, so you can look down onto, uh, [SPEAKER_06]: We were in the Palmetto-Dunes area of South Carolina, which is just gorgeous. [SPEAKER_06]: And I heard you guys all shared one bedroom though, is that? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, definitely not. [SPEAKER_06]: No, Ricky suggested it, but I'm like, no, no, no, I'm going to go back to my own room.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right, but we're a reason I brought up, got to look it up at the sky. [SPEAKER_06]: When I was, we were out in golf course and Ricky was looking up at the sky. [SPEAKER_06]: So it's like, what are you doing? [SPEAKER_06]: Pay attention to what they're doing. [SPEAKER_06]: You're not hitting them ball well enough to be daydreaming in here.

[SPEAKER_06]: He's like, don't know, see all these cam trails, there's planes everywhere, look, it's tick-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-

[SPEAKER_07]: you listen to him talk about it three days and it starts to make a lot of things over the years and Ricky does dig into it and doesn't stop. [SPEAKER_07]: He's like a bulldog on a meat truck. [SPEAKER_06]: He looks kind of like a bulldog. [SPEAKER_07]: But he's very well informed. [SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't think of that out of you one. [SPEAKER_07]: You're right. [SPEAKER_07]: I don't even know. [SPEAKER_07]: But he's very well informed. [SPEAKER_07]: We love you.

[SPEAKER_07]: You know, a lot of things that he's talked about over the years of kind of come true, not kind of come true, but our coming true. [SPEAKER_07]: So, you know, when he used to talk about pizza gate five years ago, everybody kind of looked at him like he had three heads. [SPEAKER_07]: So, and not just those big bulb was bald heads. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm talking to the weird looking ones that people stare at, you know, so. [SPEAKER_06]: But you know, the prospect of playing winter golf.

[SPEAKER_06]: No matter how lovely it is, where you go, we had sun all days, but we teed off day two and day, okay, so we played the Arthur Hills course day one. [SPEAKER_06]: We played Fasi O day two, we played RTJ day three. [SPEAKER_06]: I've played that Arthur Hills course, I think twice before, and it's great, but I had never played the RTJ course, and man was at nice. [SPEAKER_06]: really beautiful. [SPEAKER_06]: But we didn't go over to Kilo, we kept it to those those three.

[SPEAKER_06]: That makes sense, that's right there, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and I'll tell you, that neighborhood, there's great food, we had beautiful food, shrimp and grits for dinner, in that low country. [SPEAKER_06]: I had, I had collard greens. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I would have really do it. [SPEAKER_06]: And what was great too is, you know, those guys, they would have drinks at night.

[SPEAKER_06]: I, [SPEAKER_06]: Drank all day woke up had beer had second beer had beer on the golf course that we would get checked in it was in the golf cart We'd have beer after we'd begin wine. [SPEAKER_06]: We'd go have this beautiful sleep like a baby And we were doing hot tub outside in that cold weather, which I love I had the the tossal cap on but in a hundred and a quarter degrees [SPEAKER_06]: beautiful. [SPEAKER_06]: But what our golf is is not satisfying.

[SPEAKER_06]: It's like you're playing with somebody else's hands, you know, and you can I I could convince myself, you know, day two day three to get the long class. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm gonna go for it [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to make sure that I was on the other side of the story here. [SPEAKER_03]: We are, we are.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: You know, what was the ironic part of being the youngest guy in this group, yet having this most beautiful silver head of hair of the four that's, um, we, one of the group, uh, forgot, um, his hat at the restaurant night one. [SPEAKER_06]: and we called back and I said is this the lovely gal that helped your favorite group of the night. [SPEAKER_06]: I think we spoke to you when we came in. [SPEAKER_06]: She said, oh yes, I think so.

[SPEAKER_06]: I said, yeah, I was the the really ravishingly good-looking guy with a silver hair there with with three very distinguished yet significantly older gentleman. [SPEAKER_06]: Do you remember us? [SPEAKER_06]: And she's exactly what you're talking about. [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, we had a great time, and since we're talking about, I just was, hey, thank you Bobby Marcus for generous. [SPEAKER_06]: That was a great trip. [SPEAKER_06]: Really appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, that is, that's about to, yeah, totally, totally. [SPEAKER_06]: So on the way back, we just picked up, yeah, right. [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm sitting this event airport today, looking at the market, catching up on emails and messages and, you know, I'm just kind of wandering around, looking at stuff without looking at it, and I realize they have this little, like,

[SPEAKER_06]: Um, a bourbon shop, and I think maybe they sold maybe another spirit or maybe there was a gin or something they were selling, but it's it's all whiskey from Georgia and South Carolina and, um, and, you know, I'm like, oh, I walk in and I say to the lady I said, hello, this is a really interesting shop. [SPEAKER_06]: You got, I do a podcast on bourbon and we're filming it tonight if I were going to take a bottle, what's the one I want?

[SPEAKER_06]: She, you know, [SPEAKER_06]: She said we got a couple of good ones, but this is the one that gets typically the best review. [SPEAKER_06]: This is called Sa-Van-Nah, single barrel, founders reserve. [SPEAKER_06]: This is a straight bourbon whiskey, but it's kind of funny, it's a straight bourbon whiskey, handcrafted in Georgia, which causes a little cognitive dissonance for me, but you know, we're not going to split hairs. [SPEAKER_06]: 54% hundred and eight aged five years.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yep, and the bottles nice. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know the first damn thing about it Didn't have an opportunity to look it up. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I don't either. [SPEAKER_06]: This is a let's see. [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see what we think, but it hold on. [SPEAKER_06]: I've been sipping on it I haven't had a sip. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it gets props for the bottle. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, pretty smooth. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, the nose.

[SPEAKER_06]: I get a little water in there now [SPEAKER_06]: Smalls nice no no real no real boozy sent on on it. [SPEAKER_07]: It's not a good taste. [SPEAKER_07]: I can see why it's one of their better sellers. [SPEAKER_07]: Do you say boozy boozy? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, what we call that? [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, well What you call it?

[SPEAKER_06]: Perry you would say this has a little bit of a rye a little bit of a yeah a little bit of a nice taste to it But it has an interesting [SPEAKER_07]: Like after that goes away, it's got to have like a little bit of a dirty stocking taste to you. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: It might. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: But there's time tonight. [SPEAKER_06]: There's an interesting sweetness about a second after you swallow it to taste a little vanilla.

[SPEAKER_06]: Huh? [SPEAKER_06]: You get that or my making it up. [SPEAKER_06]: Gently hand around you. [SPEAKER_06]: You're holding on to me. [SPEAKER_07]: So. [SPEAKER_07]: I had no chance to study this, and I have nothing to offer than it tastes really good. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I got nothing to offer. [SPEAKER_07]: You know, this was a last minute. [SPEAKER_07]: It was great. [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, we had a different bottle where I had to go today, and we, no fire, no fire in this.

[SPEAKER_07]: Now, there's no fire. [SPEAKER_03]: No. [SPEAKER_07]: It was at 800, 800, 800, 800, 800, 800. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, it's. [SPEAKER_03]: So props to the lady at the Savannah airport. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Very good. [SPEAKER_06]: But Burman from a state that's not supposed to be making Burman, that's a pretty good model. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, did you charge you a Mason Dixon tax?

[SPEAKER_06]: No, I've slipped into, after hanging out with Ricky for a couple days, I just let a little, yeah, I just slowed down a little bit instead of talking so fast. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And I tell him about your Burman there, and yeah, she, I think she gave me a two or three dollars. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was a lazy eye.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, this thing I got so so you know, I'm not sure that was the most professional review ever done or we'll ever do But it's better than some we've done. [SPEAKER_06]: This is not a bad bottle. [SPEAKER_06]: I've good as it gets with this better with bourbon crew Yeah, so cheers to the I can't remember the name of the story is but you're in Savannah.

[SPEAKER_03]: The deal with the show is a drink bourbon while you talk about tech and other things not that you're you know bourbon [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we hope I've proven that over, yeah, we hope that after maybe we're consumers. [SPEAKER_03]: We're consumer. [SPEAKER_07]: After 50 or 100 episodes will be better at reviewing than we will be a drink and but right now we are expert drinkers. [SPEAKER_06]: Like, yeah, like I said last week, I want to decent reviewers.

[SPEAKER_06]: I want to taste a bourbon one time and say, yeah, forced floor. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I get, I heard somebody say it once. [SPEAKER_06]: Why not? [SPEAKER_06]: It sounded like the dumbest thing I've ever heard to you. [SPEAKER_06]: A force floor. [SPEAKER_03]: The true test will be the bourbonometer and see how low it is by the end of the show. [SPEAKER_03]: If it's down toward that bottom label, then that's a good bourbon.

[SPEAKER_07]: Well, in our audience, we'll also know how many takes we have to do after traveling all day. [SPEAKER_07]: Both of us. [SPEAKER_07]: So we'll see how good we really are. [SPEAKER_06]: So we have an interesting agenda tonight because we were both traveling. [SPEAKER_06]: And because a lot of the big events that have happened in the world over the last few days have been so well covered. [SPEAKER_06]: We're just going to hop around a little bit. [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to do.

[SPEAKER_06]: We got to talk a little bit about. [SPEAKER_06]: about the hockey game. [SPEAKER_06]: I know everybody else in the world is talking about it, but we get, I mean, we, we followed, we, we followed. [SPEAKER_06]: the Olympics pretty religiously. [SPEAKER_06]: We got a little bit of an update on the metal count. [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, we should just do that right now. [SPEAKER_06]: Shit. [SPEAKER_06]: I think we should.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: So US, if I'm getting this right and see, it's the highest, metal total we've ever accumulated and the highest gold total. [SPEAKER_06]: I think it was a 12. [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was 12. [SPEAKER_06]: And we finished second only in Norway who had the most [SPEAKER_06]: any country has everyone. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, can I just say that with an asterisk and that not to take into winter with it? [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and I can.

[SPEAKER_07]: I'm not trying to take any against Norway, but [SPEAKER_07]: that they had one guy that was like a stand out across country skier. [SPEAKER_07]: He won six out of six of his events in cross country skiing. [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, that's how they traveled there. [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, this guy just, you know, they get around from the post office to the store, you know, he just kept going. [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, he hasn't even stopped.

[SPEAKER_07]: He never even stopped and got his goal. [SPEAKER_03]: You called it. [SPEAKER_03]: You called it. [SPEAKER_03]: I think two episodes ago that we won't beat Norway in the mental count. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm pretty sure he did that. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's true. [SPEAKER_06]: It sounds like something I would say. [SPEAKER_03]: He should be called it. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this would become a short clip. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I called it.

[SPEAKER_07]: But I guess my point isn't, and again, that which is fantastic. [SPEAKER_07]: And that was a record in itself when he was six gold medals and sweeping every event that he was in, which is remarkable. [SPEAKER_07]: But you take out the cross country skiing. [SPEAKER_07]: We're right there with Norway. [SPEAKER_06]: You got that right. [SPEAKER_06]: And I want to say something about these cross country skiing events.

[SPEAKER_06]: Look. [SPEAKER_05]: How many did he want six, all cross country skiing, some of them with the shooting also, like, someone, do we need that many different cross kinds of things? [SPEAKER_06]: I think one of them, he would, you had to wave and like, just the girls. [SPEAKER_06]: Right, you know, maybe it's where maybe we're unspistigating Americans probably. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know, maybe I've been drinking too. [SPEAKER_06]: We're into that girl.

[SPEAKER_06]: I don't, yeah, right. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't see how there can be six different types of [SPEAKER_06]: cross-country skiing. [SPEAKER_06]: I now the one with the gun is is interesting and I have a question about that. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't understand like why do we not have Given the United States military prowess and the pride we take in it. [SPEAKER_06]: Why do we not dominate that event? [SPEAKER_05]: We should we should be taking all the way up. [SPEAKER_05]: It's not that nice.

[SPEAKER_07]: There's a better membership with cross country skis or yeah, there's like to have you ever either be more like Matt Damon in your own like you know going down the slow side Solms fast. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm talking speed skiing and then try to shoot that makes it a little more interesting [SPEAKER_03]: More of a challenge. [SPEAKER_03]: Have you ever tried shooting if you're if you're a if you're a winded in your head you're breathing heavy Trying trying some time.

[SPEAKER_06]: It's hard enough when you're Tard enough when you're not if you have a cross country ski No, that's no, I've done a lot of skiing. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, never cross country [SPEAKER_06]: And I've done a fair amount of shooting, but these are never while running. [SPEAKER_03]: These aren't Navy seals out there doing. [SPEAKER_03]: Let's see, these are athletes that the shooting becomes part of the sport. [SPEAKER_03]: They're not really, well, I would love to see it.

[SPEAKER_06]: You said, I would love it. [SPEAKER_06]: We get some special forces guy who works. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: This is a Jordan Paul topic. [SPEAKER_06]: This is a hundred percent Jordan. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's a hundred. [SPEAKER_07]: I did try cross-country skiing in Wisconsin because that's the popular sport on the Gulf courses is during the winter time. [SPEAKER_07]: And it's not as easy as it looks. [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, it doesn't look easy at all.

[SPEAKER_07]: But it's your shuffling. [SPEAKER_07]: It feels like, you know? [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_06]: That one where there's a rhythm to it, you know, that one where they're going around is almost like a motor cross track where they got to go uphill and they got to stop and take the the skids off the bottom of the thing and talk them in their bib, but if any of its hanging out you could penalize and then you put them back on I'm like [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe that's big in Norway, Sweden, I just, I, that, it's not interesting. [SPEAKER_06]: It's not interesting.

[SPEAKER_07]: It definitely not interesting. [SPEAKER_07]: It's not very, and I hate to take away from the folks that do it because it's an endurance sport for sure. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, of course, but it's impressive. [SPEAKER_07]: I just don't know really a skill sport though. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's where I kind of come into, you know. [SPEAKER_07]: Like everything else, there's a skill to it, the balance, the athleticism, the quickness.

[SPEAKER_07]: You know, and trust me, I get that you have to do balanced athleticism and quickness in cross country, but there's not any special flare to it, I guess, is what I'm saying. [SPEAKER_07]: And I did not watch one cross country, I watched one or two for a few minutes, and you just, [SPEAKER_06]: I wanted to make this observation, whatever happened to the days when Italy, France, Germany would win medals left and right in the winter Olympics.

[SPEAKER_06]: Russia, right, when did all of a sudden it become, basically, Norway, Austin, and Denmark? [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that, and it's interesting to see the, um, some of the competition Asian countries are producing.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I honestly think part of it probably has to do with [SPEAKER_03]: You know, back in the twenty thirty years ago, professional athletes weren't allowed to compete from the United States, but all those other countries, athletes were all professionals. [SPEAKER_03]: Just going back to even the miracle on ice. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, that's true. [SPEAKER_03]: Hockey thing, those were a bunch of college kids that had never played in the pros.

[SPEAKER_03]: Play it against. [SPEAKER_07]: Which area is a great segue to talk about hockey because, I mean, 46 years later here, we are. [SPEAKER_07]: 46 years to the day. [SPEAKER_03]: That's a remarkable stack. [SPEAKER_03]: That's neat. [SPEAKER_03]: I did not realize we didn't want to go old and hockey since then. [SPEAKER_03]: We've won three in the 80. [SPEAKER_03]: Fun fact, the miracle and ice game when they beat the Russians wasn't the metal game.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, they had to be Norway. [SPEAKER_03]: I think are Sweden after that. [SPEAKER_03]: Sweden. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was Sweden. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And here's, okay, here's another fun fact. [SPEAKER_06]: I got this from another podcast today. [SPEAKER_06]: So I get it.

[SPEAKER_06]: did you know that uh... what was the coach uh... miracle on us her brooks brooks her brooks was the last man cut [SPEAKER_06]: from the 1960 gold medal team, and I didn't know that, and I don't know whether they made the, whether that was a part of the movie, if it was, I had forgotten that detail. [SPEAKER_06]: But with respect to Accular, he was the last guy didn't make any begins. [SPEAKER_06]: He ends up the coach in 1980, and it's a great sports moment of all time.

[SPEAKER_06]: I'm really happy for Mike Sullivan, cause he, you know, [SPEAKER_06]: You know, he was, yeah, part of the fabric here. [SPEAKER_03]: But another fun point, you know. [SPEAKER_03]: The last two coaches that have coached a gold medal winning, Olympic hockey team, both coached for the penguins as well. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's a great. [SPEAKER_03]: That's a great step. [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't know. [SPEAKER_03]: Her Brooks coach, I didn't know he did.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, back in almost eight, 90s, early 2000s. [SPEAKER_07]: So Sydney getting hurt. [SPEAKER_07]: Do you think that had an effect, especially, I envision him being in the three on three, I think it made a. [SPEAKER_06]: big difference when the game mattered because you know, if you, I mean, I just, that's what I was most afraid of. [SPEAKER_06]: You have him out there in the middle, and they move, uh, McDavid to the wing, right?

[SPEAKER_07]: And just let, let those, I mean, yeah, with that being said, we were still underdogs, and we still persevered in our goalie. [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, Mark, our goalie, you know, he just got the middle of freedom last night. [SPEAKER_07]: That was, he's been, he's been marked as [SPEAKER_07]: 40 want out of 42 stops. [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, that is amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: I go a little game. [SPEAKER_03]: Not going can change, you can change a game, change a series.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, they had, they really were not the better team. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Canada on paper is the better team. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but somebody said we still won. [SPEAKER_05]: Didn't McKinnon say something off color after the fact. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, it wasn't McKinnon. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that were, yeah, it wasn't McKinnon. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay. [SPEAKER_03]: He made a comment. [SPEAKER_03]: He says, well, you all saw who the better team was out there.

[SPEAKER_03]: so it's because they were board mother fucker yeah right that's all we say to the trouble i mean i don't know which means it's very quick yeah it's very uncannadian like we talked about this little and it's over is going up we talked to the Canadian manors last week with jordan about the curling right they were they have not handled this well neither did the john kupers a coach he was being kind of a dick about it too

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you know, um, the presidential metal of freedom I thought was a neat thing to need. [SPEAKER_07]: So, uh, is it just trying to rub in Canada space in the mud right now? [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think so. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, okay. [SPEAKER_05]: So I've heard Brooks quit the first state. [SPEAKER_06]: I've heard Brooks. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_07]: and uh... erusionic created maybe the greatest sports moment in american history possibly and how can you not acknowledge this was some sort of i mean i thought it was like i think everything he did he deserved it i think you got i don't know if there's an mvp a word by me if there was you know between him and in jack i mean i obviously i'll get [SPEAKER_07]: Give it to him. [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I mean, they're both were just it came through in clutch.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, came through in the clutch. [SPEAKER_06]: That picture of of, of Hughes with the flag wrapped around a mission all as the teeth and that's a serious still bleeding. [SPEAKER_07]: That's hockey. [SPEAKER_07]: It was a 92 Olympic sheet plate and so it's like a water family. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, so I mean, she's he's coming from talent. [SPEAKER_07]: And now now you can obviously see where, you know, and obviously is, I think Quinn is also on the team.

[SPEAKER_07]: So I mean, eight. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you know, yeah, the Hughes boy. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that's really something. [SPEAKER_06]: I wanted to share this. [SPEAKER_06]: I think this is right. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to have to check myself after I say this. [SPEAKER_06]: So no, no hate mail if this is wrong. [SPEAKER_06]: Presidential Medal of Freedom is the highest honor that a civilian can receive in the United States.

[SPEAKER_06]: I have both an aunt and an uncle who received the Presidential Medal of Freedom. [SPEAKER_06]: Arnold got it from Obama. [SPEAKER_06]: Went to see that. [SPEAKER_06]: It was awesome. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm very cool to be in the Rotunda for that. [SPEAKER_06]: Did you get it? [SPEAKER_06]: No, in fact, they wouldn't let me anywhere near. [SPEAKER_06]: I had to, I didn't even see that. [SPEAKER_06]: I had to stand like in the hall. [SPEAKER_07]: There comes that one.

[SPEAKER_07]: Did they have a special security with you? [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, right. [SPEAKER_06]: I think I just, there was a, I'm going to get saying. [SPEAKER_06]: He can, why is that red dot? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you need to lay out the lawyer. [SPEAKER_06]: And then my, my aunt Cheechee, my dad's big sister Arnold's little sister was the inspector general for the army. [SPEAKER_06]: for the last, I don't know how many years of her career.

[SPEAKER_06]: Wow, and she was awarded Presidential Medal of Immortal by. [SPEAKER_06]: President Bush. [SPEAKER_03]: Amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: First. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And is that right? [SPEAKER_06]: That's awesome. [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's right. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: That's amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm never seeing Arnold get that award. [SPEAKER_03]: It was under this. [SPEAKER_03]: I think this is right here.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I would keep going being able to go and see that. [SPEAKER_06]: The respondent in the capital is like, oh, awe inspiring. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, it's the art in there is outrageous. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you don't even think I would love to see that. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, it's crazy. [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway. [SPEAKER_07]: Guess the remodeling right now, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, are they? [SPEAKER_07]: Well, least one. [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah, everybody's more baller. [SPEAKER_06]: You know what, I mean, but shouldn't, shouldn't America's home base have a party room. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, shouldn't it? [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I mean, that's what we all have. [SPEAKER_03]: Those people agree that it's the right thing to do. [SPEAKER_03]: It's just something to complain about. [SPEAKER_07]: I guess Trump condoed it off though, and he's just going to lease it back to all the parties you're on court.

[SPEAKER_07]: It sounds about right. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, anyway, they lent it. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_06]: The Olympics were great. [SPEAKER_06]: We're missing anything on the other side. [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think we are. [SPEAKER_07]: No, I did want to ask you, because since I was out in Palm Springs, it kind of reminded me, and I thought I saw somewhere along the lines that are only used to travel out to Palm Springs. [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_07]: He had a lot of friends out there, right? [SPEAKER_07]: Back in the day. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I had a house in Palm Desert. [SPEAKER_07]: That's what's going to say later in this life. [SPEAKER_06]: I was talking about really like to there. [SPEAKER_07]: Mike and I were kicking that around. [SPEAKER_07]: I thought I heard that at some point.

[SPEAKER_06]: I'd never been there, but I think I... [SPEAKER_06]: I think somebody just bought that house, or it's per se, I don't know what the deal. [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, but yeah, I like, we have coming off this kind of USA, USA moment. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm really looking forward to the World Cup. [SPEAKER_07]: Me too.

[SPEAKER_07]: And I think we have to acknowledge that the women's hockey team also won, so to have both teams win in our neighbors, you know, got family that's [SPEAKER_07]: That's on the team or the second the back of goalie, you know, John, you know, wow. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, remember right. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, John. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: You're right.

[SPEAKER_06]: Brad's neighbor works for the or just just very recently retired from a long illustrious career at the Federal Reserve. [SPEAKER_06]: You know, kind of a note here about what's awesome about Indiana P.A. [SPEAKER_06]: We out here in the middle of [SPEAKER_06]: of the forest and we got a guy living next door who can help formulate monetary policy. [SPEAKER_06]: This is a great, met this guy in the rose in, which is our local dive bar here for you non-local folk.

[SPEAKER_06]: That's where I met him, too. [SPEAKER_06]: Is that right? [SPEAKER_06]: And just started talking, came to funny, he goes, oh, you're from DC. [SPEAKER_06]: I've met a bunch of my life in DC. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, no kid, and we can back and forth next thing, you know, I'm like, well, we can work you do, he's like, I'm... [SPEAKER_06]: I hope federal reserve with, you know, like, holy shit.

[SPEAKER_06]: What are you doing here at two o'clock in the afternoon, drinking in the bar where the rest of us do nothings are hanging out. [SPEAKER_06]: I'll tell you, I've had some crazy conversations. [SPEAKER_06]: He was just being interested in everybody. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, definitely. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, totally. [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, what do you think?

[SPEAKER_07]: We you need a roof, I need a roof, I need a roof, so why don't we stoke the fire and uh, and we'll be back right after these? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we get a little bit of what we can talk a little business, little AI. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, there's a lot of, like my topics right now. [SPEAKER_06]: Who knows what we're going to cover? [SPEAKER_06]: Nothing. [SPEAKER_06]: Cheers. [SPEAKER_06]: Cheers. [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[SPEAKER_01]: What happens when work disappears, when money dissolves, and when freedom becomes something you earn, not something you're born with, a new kind of power is rising, not a government, not a corporation, but the algorithm. [SPEAKER_01]: In the algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, Amazon best selling author. [SPEAKER_01]: Bradley J. Martinowe reveals the world we're stepping into.

[SPEAKER_01]: A world where your reputation is computed, your opportunities are filtered and your identity is shaped by systems that know you better than you know yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: This is not science fiction. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the operating manual of the future forming around us right now. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to understand the forces that will define power, belonging, and freedom in the decades ahead, start here.

[SPEAKER_01]: The algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, available now on Amazon. [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome back Mitchell's. [SPEAKER_06]: You can see that we have refilled. [SPEAKER_06]: We have refilled and that fires looking great. [SPEAKER_07]: Fire's going up. [SPEAKER_07]: The bourbon's going down and we do have a special guest in the studio. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, we do. [SPEAKER_07]: He is one of the original OG matches from the Mitch Corp. [SPEAKER_07]: Gentlemen, how you doing?

[SPEAKER_07]: Johnny Mock is in the house. [SPEAKER_07]: Johnny Mock announced. [SPEAKER_04]: Honor to be here with you guys. [SPEAKER_04]: That's great to have you. [SPEAKER_04]: Hashtag the bourbon's good, the company's better? [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, and Johnny's one of the greatest bourbon connoisseurs I've known. [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah, that are bourbon drinkers I've ever known. [SPEAKER_04]: That's the conversation, better, better drinker than a connoisseur, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: We're working on the connoisseur part, like you know. [SPEAKER_06]: Audience should know. [SPEAKER_06]: He sampled the whiskey, says A, it's good. [SPEAKER_06]: Says it's great and B, it sounds like our tasting notes were pretty run on. [SPEAKER_06]: I think you say John we're going back for seconds.

[SPEAKER_06]: So that's a good sign and I get something I want to say you can't see Johnny, but he's wearing a Penn State hat that makes me want to say thank you Pennsylvania for taking such good care. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I can bet somebody for taking such good care of me. [SPEAKER_06]: It does take care of us go to get the PA shout out in. [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, so we're going to we're going to be doing you know last week.

[SPEAKER_06]: we broke a little bit of ground. [SPEAKER_06]: We had both our first, I'm sorry, two weeks we had a call in and then we had a studio gas. [SPEAKER_06]: So we're going to try to expand upon this. [SPEAKER_06]: The studio gas stands a little, uh, that's a little flaring pizzazz to the action. [SPEAKER_06]: So there might be more voices in here in the coming weeks. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we're working on a few different things. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, some friends will be around.

[SPEAKER_06]: We're not going to let them speak for very good reasons. [SPEAKER_06]: No, Johnny's in a different camp he did. [SPEAKER_06]: They will be on May. [SPEAKER_07]: They will be in the ball gate and talk up in the corner. [SPEAKER_06]: And you know who you are, you know who you are. [SPEAKER_06]: And then the Collins, we, we, we thought the calling was really fun. [SPEAKER_06]: Perry loves Jordan wants to bring him on the show that I'm Jordan.

[SPEAKER_06]: We're trying it well, I have to work with Jordan's agent now to figure out where you get time for him to come back on and what we have to pay him because he's going to have a podcast in career without having any stake in a podcast at all. [SPEAKER_07]: We were just the first stop of all the sports stations he was talking to. [SPEAKER_06]: He was awesome. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so J.P. [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks, your contribution was noted. [SPEAKER_06]: We could be back and touch it all.

[SPEAKER_03]: When we were talking about that, well, that's going to be noisy on there. [SPEAKER_03]: When we were talking about that whole double touch incident with the Americans and the, or I'm sorry, with the Canadians and the, uh, Swedes or the Finn, Finn was finished team after they were. [SPEAKER_03]: What you call them the Finlish? [SPEAKER_03]: Finlish? [SPEAKER_03]: Finlish, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's appropriate.

[SPEAKER_03]: Whenever you said, so what's the deal with this, uh, double, what's the deal? [SPEAKER_03]: And Jordan is so bloody, [SPEAKER_06]: One, Jordan is great at making a point, excellent professional speaker, but he also knows me well enough. [SPEAKER_06]: He knew exactly what I was going for and gave it to me over there, and I had a boy Jay. [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[SPEAKER_07]: So we have some, but what we do before we get into that, I think there's something we want to just let the, I'm sure the studio audience probably, and also the audience that's going to be out there is going to notice we have a new prop in the house, it's the leg lamp. [SPEAKER_07]: and in many may think they've seen this on the Christmas story but we actually had fairies uh... drag bunny leg uh... uh... molded and it [SPEAKER_07]: This is not a major award.

[SPEAKER_07]: This is actually Perry's leg. [SPEAKER_07]: No, that really is. [SPEAKER_07]: So, you know, when we're talking about just touching to the finish, right, you know, right there. [SPEAKER_07]: It is fragile. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: It is fragile. [SPEAKER_03]: You'd be pretty tough to walk out here with the only one leg. [SPEAKER_03]: Carry in all this equipment.

[SPEAKER_07]: And I, and I, and I know in one of our promos this week, you know, we had to, they do a shout out to, [SPEAKER_07]: to the sphere in Vegas and the of Oz, because when I saw that big and be slippery, there's only one other foot that that would fit perfectly on. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, wait, hey, we talked about, did you make it? [SPEAKER_07]: I appreciate you thinking, did you play?

[SPEAKER_07]: Do you, I know, did, uh, Mrs. Martno, uh, Mrs. Martno played, uh, she wasn't successful at the time, which is unusual. [SPEAKER_07]: Usually she's yeah, I was going to ask you, I know she's like, yeah, she doesn't go to the fight, I know better than me. [SPEAKER_07]: I stayed away from the tables, which I have a few folks saying, are you feeling okay? [SPEAKER_07]: I'm like, yeah, really? [SPEAKER_07]: I was, yeah, I was feeling okay. [SPEAKER_07]: wasn't filling up to a gamble.

[SPEAKER_07]: And so I just took in the scenery and it was awesome. [SPEAKER_07]: It was kind of like the tail end I worked on some notes for it today and I changed up an article and as a great friend of ours says work, work, work, work, Bradley.

[SPEAKER_06]: work work work is it's not work when we when it's fun like this is it yeah well that that's old on that same guy also says finished I'm not even close to finished I'm just getting started and he'll yeah he'll be he'll be in the you know who you are out there yeah he doesn't know he is he's right now he's probably exactly where we think he is I know yeah he's definitely is that we'll get him we're gonna get him [SPEAKER_06]: Todd, we love it.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we get a little bit of, uh, we've been dicking around now for how long. [SPEAKER_06]: We get a little bit of actual business. [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, there's 25 minutes. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, there's, there's some serious AI business. [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to happen. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: So let's, let's get into it. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay. [SPEAKER_06]: So we're going to, um, [SPEAKER_06]: two things.

[SPEAKER_06]: Open AI did something we're going to talk about, and then we talked a little bit about anthropic, who's run by the guy Dario, who is raising the alarm. [SPEAKER_06]: Anthropic had an interesting week, so we're going to talk about both of those. [SPEAKER_06]: Do you care which one do you want to do first? [SPEAKER_06]: Whatever you want to tackle first, I'm all aboard. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, let's do the Open AI.

[SPEAKER_06]: Open AI this week announced, you know, and I don't know whether we call it a deal, but a partnership, [SPEAKER_06]: with the bunch of management consulting firms that I think most of America would just say who cares? [SPEAKER_06]: Why is this important? [SPEAKER_06]: I don't give a shit. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_06]: I've heard of these companies. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't really know what they do. [SPEAKER_06]: But they open AI struck a deal with four consulting firms.

[SPEAKER_06]: I think it's McKinsey and BCG, which are like the Mercedes-Benz and BMW of management consulting firms. [SPEAKER_06]: Cap Gemini which is like the Ford Pinto of consulting firms do a lot of federal work and then Who's the last one it was? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, there was one more what was the last one. [SPEAKER_06]: It was a doesn't matter anyway. [SPEAKER_06]: It was eccentric Yeah, it was here.

[SPEAKER_06]: You're you know your butt-wiser Old Faithful right and the deal was that these Four management consultants would now align with open AI to help corporate customers [SPEAKER_06]: Not just experiment with AI, but move into actually implementing agentic models that will allow for corporate intelligence to be automated and fully kind of AI enabled. [SPEAKER_06]: So this is an important step in AI moving beyond this, well, let's just turn it on and play with it and see what happens.

[SPEAKER_06]: we're going to limit any damage anybody can do you know we're not going to have corporate data in there they can use it to help write emails or respond to you know personal inquiries and just help save a few minutes here there that's that's now going to change in a very profound way because of some of these agentic advances that we've talked about recently the idea that

[SPEAKER_06]: We can allow the AI to actually have access to our data, not just personally, but in this regard kind of corporate financial data, client data, and help automate some of the analysis in some of the deeper reasoning tasks that a management consultant do. [SPEAKER_06]: So the idea here is we're going to roll out actual projects and programs that will help companies make more money.

[SPEAKER_07]: Now, by enlisting these four consulting firms, and I'm guessing that they're paying them to do so, in some form of fashion and whether it's, yeah, keep on revenue basis share or upfront the cost. [SPEAKER_07]: as their duty to their clients should they be disclosing that now are they actually looking if they're pitching this as a salesperson in my opinion to their client and acting as that that had a sales really enterprise sales. [SPEAKER_07]: Is there a conflict there?

[SPEAKER_07]: I think at least full disclosure needs to happen in this case. [SPEAKER_07]: You have a break, you know, you come and deacon as many, no, may nor may not know. [SPEAKER_07]: You come from that world. [SPEAKER_07]: You work that gardener. [SPEAKER_07]: So I think you probably have faced this dilemma before and or know how the firm's handle that. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the economic model is pretty much this. [SPEAKER_06]: There's not in some models there will be a revenue split.

[SPEAKER_06]: But what this is really about is when [SPEAKER_06]: When a company would maybe get in touch with OpenAI and say, hey, how do we use your tools more effectively on the enterprise level? [SPEAKER_06]: Because you have to pay for that enterprise access. [SPEAKER_06]: OpenAI will say, hey, instead of you, you know, a name a company in the Vardis.

[SPEAKER_06]: Univardis instead of fumbling around and dicking around and kind of getting in half right and kind of getting some pieces wrong and only doing the things you want to do. [SPEAKER_06]: These four companies can come in and help you in ways that are unique [SPEAKER_06]: Your economic model, your industry vertical, because they have that expense, what a management consultant does.

[SPEAKER_06]: They come in and they help you with outsourced understanding about a particular industry, whether it be financial services, or manufacturing distribution, even down into the middle market legal, and those folks would essentially bill that client organization for services associated with helping them do a handful of things to make AI work. [SPEAKER_06]: do we have a technology stack that supports AI in the way that is necessary?

[SPEAKER_06]: All those, all these major, and if you're a Fortune 500 company, or even down to a $2 billion middle market company, you have a technology stack that works. [SPEAKER_06]: You have cyber and invested. [SPEAKER_06]: Everything is integrated. [SPEAKER_06]: You have a server stack that is secure. [SPEAKER_06]: You have enterprise data. [SPEAKER_06]: That's the number two. [SPEAKER_06]: You have to have a data environment that has data that's able to be analyzed.

[SPEAKER_06]: That's a big learning curve for a lot of organizations. [SPEAKER_06]: Your data has to be clean and interoperable. [SPEAKER_06]: Some people out there will understand the term garbage in garbage out. [SPEAKER_06]: The better organized and structured your data is, the easier it will be for an LLM to help you analyze it.

[SPEAKER_06]: But then the third is really where most big companies, not just relative to AI, but in all kind of technology adoption waves over the past, and we can talk about them if you want, it's not really a technology question. [SPEAKER_06]: Most of the failure doesn't, it's not that they can't make the technology work, it's that they're operating model, the way they're structured, what they do every day isn't properly modified to kind of allow space for these new technical capabilities.

[SPEAKER_06]: which is hence where these four companies come in because that's exactly what they do every operating model and to your governance, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Who, who in the organization is the appropriate person or kind of department, who's the appropriate staff to do what with what data, who do we not need to give data to, where do we need to set up barriers?

[SPEAKER_07]: I think I want to look my 15 layer operationally [SPEAKER_06]: see this is then this is exactly why people are like why would we be talking about this because that's exactly what happens. [SPEAKER_06]: A 15 layer AI governance structure to most organization be like a what is that and why do we need it but it's essential if you're a public company and you're on the board of a public company and you have

[SPEAKER_06]: fiduciary responsibility to not only your shareholders, but your board and your employees, there have to be set standards about how do we want to set limits around the use of the technology to make sure that it's not getting out of hand or exposing us to institutional risk that we're not prepared for and that's total strikes on for you. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, and that's where that's what's happened and that's why we've seen some of the fail.

[SPEAKER_07]: And I don't even call them failures, they're learning experiences that have happened early on in the adoption, especially now since the agentic AI is Come on strong and people have been eager to adopt it, but without Knowing properly, knowing to put the AI government structure in place first, thinking that this is just another tool they can add on. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, a lot of it here's okay.

[SPEAKER_06]: So here's an important so [SPEAKER_06]: this kind of evolution where we have these new technology tools and they're so powerful that they necessitate a new operating model, maybe we have to move people in different departments around, maybe we have to have different support structures because certain people aren't going to be wasting time doing jobs that now the AI is going to

[SPEAKER_06]: So how do we redeploy those people in ways that are more economically viable to help our customers and help us achieve our financial goals? [SPEAKER_06]: That's essentially what we're talking about. [SPEAKER_06]: This is not new. [SPEAKER_06]: This has happened in web1.0 when the internet was invented and we had to figure out, well, [SPEAKER_06]: Why would I put my business online? [SPEAKER_06]: What advantage is there for me to that then of a risk? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's right.

[SPEAKER_06]: It's super high risk, right? [SPEAKER_06]: And then, you know, you advance and we have the wave of of mobile computing and, you know, working environments like banking, right? [SPEAKER_06]: When when mobile started, banks were scared to death of it because it was a massive security and cyber, cyber security, massive, massive compliance risk, right? [SPEAKER_06]: But they realized we can't [SPEAKER_06]: we can't do business. [SPEAKER_06]: This is where people want from us.

[SPEAKER_06]: They don't want to come into the branch. [SPEAKER_06]: They want to do it on their PC or on their phone. [SPEAKER_06]: So these waves of technology evolution are not new. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so we should probably, the next one is is cloud. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we move from from Web1O to mobile to cloud. [SPEAKER_06]: And now AI is the natural kind of, you know, step forward. [SPEAKER_06]: So big companies know they have to do this.

[SPEAKER_06]: But the reason there are so many consulting companies that have to come in and help them is because I think to this point in history, if you're on a board of a Fortune 500 company of which I've worked with, several, speaking of a school here, or you run a middle market company that makes, you know, anywhere from N runs no longer around by the way, yeah, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you make something from a $100 million, a $100 million up to about $2 billion, that's $2 billion, sounds massive, but we're calling that a middle market company. [SPEAKER_06]: As an executive or a board member, you could choose to be kind of tackling wool or tax savvy or not.

[SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I think that now that we're talking about a genetic development and the change and the fundamental nature of the workforce and the fundamental nature of how we're using not just our own data, but our customers data. [SPEAKER_06]: and the security requirements that aren't harrant in a move like that, board members and CEO's are no longer able to be technology adjacent.

[SPEAKER_06]: They're going to have to really engage with that CTO chief technology officer, chief data officer, chief risk officer, chief legal. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, [SPEAKER_07]: you're running to the choir here on the running a company is becoming way more complicated if you don't have that skill set you're going to have to retire right and it's become absolutely critically necessary at this point so if you're a leader in any of these major corporations

[SPEAKER_07]: And companies, even privately held companies, if you want to be successful against your competitors in your industry, you have to know how to talk to the folks in your teams, in your teams, different teams whether it's your IT department, whether it's your risk department, whether it's your legal department, your business development department, because AI is playing a big role or can play a big role in all those.

[SPEAKER_06]: It has to play a big role, because what we're seeing very clearly is [SPEAKER_06]: in public companies and the public markets, valuations for organizations who have moved beyond kind of that, well, we're kind of playing with, we're doing a pilot, they experimented, and then we're going to do another pilot, and it's experimented.

[SPEAKER_06]: Companies who are actually committing to this as a core kind of foundational tenant on how we run the business are commending higher multiples.

[SPEAKER_06]: They are, and when you move down to, and this is really important, when you leave the Fortune 500, because how many people, you know, actually they are for Fortune 500 companies, [SPEAKER_06]: hundreds of chiselians and chiselians is a chiselians people work for companies between a hundred million dollars and two billion dollars. [SPEAKER_06]: And most people at work in corporate America do.

[SPEAKER_06]: Those companies are being valued by either public markets or private equity buyers, [SPEAKER_06]: really in a way that's very contingent upon their ability to make sense of an AI strategy show actual wins that are economically viable, and typically that means ringing out cost, not of your delivery model, whatever that is, whether you're a manufacturer, again, or working insurance, or healthcare.

[SPEAKER_06]: And that is unfortunately kind of the first step in two a degree, [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not at a point yet where I'm willing to see this idea that this means people are going to lose their jobs. [SPEAKER_06]: I think that it's just like everything else. [SPEAKER_06]: Those people are going to have to be repurposed and find new ways to find economic value, which coming full circle is why you hire that consulting firm to come in and help you do this, right?

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and honestly, it's going to be a shift. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you may be losing the job that you know today. [SPEAKER_07]: It's going to shift. [SPEAKER_07]: And if you're a great worker, you're going to find something for you to do for that organization tomorrow. [SPEAKER_07]: Of course, that makes a lot of sense. [SPEAKER_07]: And based on what you're doing today, you may be able to help oversee what's being done by AI. [SPEAKER_07]: So your utility is not going to go away.

[SPEAKER_06]: Interesting headline, although I don't know this person's name. [SPEAKER_06]: It was Microsoft's head of AI, current head of AI, the one. [SPEAKER_06]: said this week that in a year and a half, all white-golder jobs, all white-collar jobs will be automated and gigantic stuff.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's right, that is, right, but you know, again, coming down to like real world, I mean, Perry runs a business, you've even talked to him about the benefit to AI, and that's exactly like, I don't know if we're okay to talk about. [SPEAKER_06]: You want to give a snippet about what you, yeah, and we were working on his stocking line, and it's amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you probably shouldn't talk about this. [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually available.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's coming out. [SPEAKER_03]: It's coming out. [SPEAKER_03]: It's called a leg above. [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. [SPEAKER_07]: That's right. [SPEAKER_07]: That's it's even better. [SPEAKER_03]: But I might as well just get on board with this because it's never going to go. [SPEAKER_07]: No, it's called Gary's Bunny's Paradise and it's coming in. [SPEAKER_07]: We're going to have, you know, product no pun intended. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, no pun intended.

[SPEAKER_07]: It's a long playful fun. [SPEAKER_06]: Perry likes to dress up and we were we have no problem with that, you know, yeah, I pour in silver to blossom anyway, yeah, that's way overplayed right now, but he, it's predictive maintenance is what we're, is that's what he used to it. [SPEAKER_06]: And Perry works in a, in a, in a many recognized environment and the machine that they run is, is very big requires a lot of management and maintenance is very expensive.

[SPEAKER_06]: So some of the predictive capabilities, [SPEAKER_06]: that AI can say and AI can sense things that humans can't. [SPEAKER_07]: So you know what there's through the vibrations, the heat, the, you know, any mechanical failure that can have a sensor put to it.

[SPEAKER_07]: It they're able to pick this up before the human eye or touch or sense, and usually it's after the fact that now you're repairing and especially in organizations that are running six to seven days a week, that downtime cost you money, absolutely, that time through the procurement market is not easily gotten today through the shipping, you know, a channel.

[SPEAKER_07]: So, those are all real dollars that can be fixed real quick with a eye-censored technology [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, so I mean, that's where this idea of, oh, come tell me about it, have somebody who could fix this for me, potentially maybe some to the speed for implementation in this shift.

[SPEAKER_06]: This is actually probably something we should, we should, you know, we talked about some of these major technology waves that have kind of washed over corporate America, you know, back in the [SPEAKER_06]: And all these big companies and lots of middle market companies were trying to automate stuff like accounting, like general ledger accounts, payable, human resources, hiring, sorting, you know, and manufacturing, what's our supply chain look like?

[SPEAKER_06]: Where we need this part, where is it in our supplier network? [SPEAKER_06]: Can we get it here tomorrow? [SPEAKER_06]: Do we have to wait? [SPEAKER_06]: That was all manually coded though, too. [SPEAKER_06]: So, yeah, that's right.

[SPEAKER_06]: And those implementations, [SPEAKER_06]: Again, in those days, you would hire a consulting firm like a PeopleSoft or an Accenture or a KPMG to come in and they would spend a year and a half doing what's called requirements analysis where they're charging you. [SPEAKER_06]: hundreds and thousands of dollars an hour to have a bunch of 23-year-olds sit and talk to people who've been doing their job for 20 years. [SPEAKER_06]: Let's say, okay, so it's a great point.

[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so you're telling me you take the TPS report and you actually deliver it. [SPEAKER_06]: It's office space and that's a requirement. [SPEAKER_06]: So they document that and they're going to find a way for a code to come in and write code to have that document end up in this person test without Mary having to pick it up here and put it down here.

[SPEAKER_06]: That process caused [SPEAKER_06]: massive heartache and ERP was necessary because we had to automate those processes back in Web.0, one day Web1.0 days, but it left a lot of scar tissue on corporate America and it's what led a lot of, you know, I think, it's seen it, like a lot of leaders, you know, kind of hold technology advancement at arms length and that they want the benefits of it, but [SPEAKER_06]: They do not don't deliver those years. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they don't want.

[SPEAKER_06]: They don't want to do it first. [SPEAKER_06]: No, you know, happy to be fifth happy to learn from my three competitors doing it wrong and losing money and then I could hire the same consumer they just fired to come in and not make the same mistake. [SPEAKER_06]: And this is the way corporate America works so. [SPEAKER_06]: In some senses, this move toward agentic AI adoption is nothing new.

[SPEAKER_06]: What makes it new is just the power and the speed with which that implementation process is going to happen. [SPEAKER_06]: Instead of 18 months doing requirements before you write a line of code like it was back in 98, 2002. [SPEAKER_06]: Today, you can come in and start talking to the agent in six months, have your whole process. [SPEAKER_06]: I was going to say 18 months right now, it's an e-on of time. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, you're already going into the next phase.

[SPEAKER_07]: So, and just like we were in the initial phase, and I just wrote an article on this this morning on shifting from experimental to practical AI, agente AI, and how enterprises are looking at it more [SPEAKER_07]: that was the lesson learned is the quick adoption was not smart. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it was fun to play with, but there were some real risks out there by letting agents go out there and do autonomous tasks that were not properly guardrailed.

[SPEAKER_07]: So now the measures are being putting place and once the measures are put in place, these tools are very powerful. [SPEAKER_07]: And this says we talk about every day. [SPEAKER_07]: uh, like with anthropic and open AI and Gemini, they're all coming out with better agent you know, systems that are working even more efficiently, more reliably or safely. [SPEAKER_06]: And there are safeguards built into those models, there are, but those are, those are societal level safeguards.

[SPEAKER_06]: Right. [SPEAKER_06]: They're not. [SPEAKER_06]: They're not keeping ploy A and B from losing the model in a way that would be detrimental to the company. [SPEAKER_06]: Or that process is what we're talking, when we say the word governance, that's what we're talking. [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly, and that's what we're talking on the enterprise level. [SPEAKER_07]: We're talking what's going on within those organizational walls that could affect what's going on.

[SPEAKER_07]: You have to be able to protect that. [SPEAKER_07]: Now, we could certainly talk about how you're dealing with the platforms too, whether we're siloing that, where we're taking it offline, keeping it protected. [SPEAKER_07]: Those are all ways to do it too depending on the regulation. [SPEAKER_07]: industry that's going on and how we have to protect it. [SPEAKER_07]: But it's an interesting dynamic going on, especially with the cloud market.

[SPEAKER_07]: You know, the cloud was the thing placed to go, but now [SPEAKER_07]: That's that's why AWS has kind of changed it and said, you know what we're going to bring the cloud to you and do it on the enterprise, you know, well, this would be this would be a real tangent, so we probably have to table this. [SPEAKER_06]: We are. [SPEAKER_06]: We are. [SPEAKER_06]: We keep going out. [SPEAKER_06]: You know what we're going to do. [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to bring Michelle on.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, to talk about the difference between cloud computing and this paradigm, we're using AI micro processors are getting so small and so powerful.

[SPEAKER_06]: And we have very recently, and we're going to talk about it here in a minute, been able to start running models that have enough memory and enough processing power, where you don't have to get data on the phone or get data in the car, send it over the public airwaves, into a cloud for the data to be manipulated, and then have the answer sent back to you on the highway or, you know, in the mall or wherever you are,

[SPEAKER_06]: these processors are now becoming fast enough and the architectures are being engineered in such a way where you can run an entire LLM on your phone. [SPEAKER_06]: You don't need to go to the cloud. [SPEAKER_06]: You don't need massive boxes of servers to change the game. [SPEAKER_06]: It's a complete game changer and that's kind of probably a good [SPEAKER_06]: kind of point to segue to come back to our second thing.

[SPEAKER_06]: You want to take a break and we'll come back and talk about it. [SPEAKER_07]: We freshen up and we stoke the fire and we get into that. [SPEAKER_06]: This might be a two ice cube. [SPEAKER_06]: We were talking about, I've never made it to a second ice cube, but I think tonight we're going to make it there. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, usually we just go knee at the end. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, this is going to disappear. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I know a doctor and I find it.

[SPEAKER_06]: We're going to come back. [SPEAKER_06]: It's very good. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we're going to come back and slower our way through a conversation about anthropic and what they're doing with [SPEAKER_06]: This is the first time I give a legal briefing with three Burmans in me. [SPEAKER_06]: All right, we'll be right back. [SPEAKER_06]: Cheers. [SPEAKER_06]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: What happens when work disappears?

[SPEAKER_01]: when money dissolves, and when freedom becomes something you earn, not something you're born with, a new kind of power is rising, not a government, not a corporation, but the algorithm. [SPEAKER_01]: In the algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, Amazon best selling author. [SPEAKER_01]: Bradley J. Martino reveals the world we're stepping into.

[SPEAKER_01]: A world where your reputation is computed, your opportunities are filtered, and your identity is shaped by systems that know you better than you know yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: This is not science fiction. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the operating manual of the future forming around us right now. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to understand the forces that will define power, belonging, [SPEAKER_01]: The algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, available now on Amazon.

[SPEAKER_06]: What's up, Mitch? [SPEAKER_06]: We're back. [SPEAKER_06]: We, as you can see, we are, we are refilled. [SPEAKER_06]: We are loaded. [SPEAKER_06]: That's stronger. [SPEAKER_06]: Remember,ometer? [SPEAKER_06]: Down. [SPEAKER_06]: Fire is crackling. [SPEAKER_06]: It is. [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, we're going to talk a little bit about anthropic and their news this week. [SPEAKER_06]: But before we do that, you need to throw it to Perry for a little bit of acknowledgement.

[SPEAKER_06]: We got a really great message this week from the end. [SPEAKER_06]: What was that, Perry? [SPEAKER_03]: Yep, a long time friend, Beth Kowback. [SPEAKER_03]: Beth, I hope you're enjoying this week's episode. [SPEAKER_03]: took the time to send me a text telling me how much she enjoyed the show and enjoyed listening to it. [SPEAKER_07]: She listened to it with us and it was a very heartfelt and we love the fact that you're listening back. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we appreciate you. [SPEAKER_03]: Joy or enjoy your ride. [SPEAKER_03]: Some day maybe we'll be able to put a show out every day. [SPEAKER_03]: We'll see. [SPEAKER_03]: But she said she wished it was one every day. [SPEAKER_03]: She could listen to it. [SPEAKER_03]: So.

[SPEAKER_07]: appreciate we know I know her from back when the kids were playing hockey yeah I think her son does and yeah of course yeah yeah pretty cool thanks Beth appreciate hope you're enjoying yeah hey Beth if you're ever in town come over for a bourbon and and sit in on a on a show I mean we'd love to know yeah yeah that's right we love the live studio audience you know Johnny Johnny's over there he's propped up now i mean his third bourbon is hitting them a little harder than the rest of us so

[SPEAKER_06]: All right, so we're going to try, we're going to try our best to get through this in a way that is educational and semi-faxually correct. [SPEAKER_07]: This may be the most interesting dissection of the anthropics news this week. [SPEAKER_07]: Which one gets pretty technical, so... [SPEAKER_06]: So we talked last week, it was last week about Anthropic.

[SPEAKER_06]: We did, and there, there, there, CEO guy named Dario, this was the dude that we pointed out was kind of a run of the middle kind of tech genius a handful of years ago, and now he's worth $7 billion based on valuation of Anthropic. [SPEAKER_06]: We said last week, Anthropic has 10x to their growth. [SPEAKER_06]: They've grown 1,000 percent three years in a row, not bad. [SPEAKER_06]: And a lot of that is because their LLM is been acknowledged as really good for a handful of things.

[SPEAKER_06]: They do a lot of stuff it competes with OpenAI's CHAPT and Gemini and all the other ones that we talk about all the time. [SPEAKER_06]: But there's this really particularly good at coding, right? [SPEAKER_07]: And it's really good at coding, but also very conservative on the safe side to which I think is such another, you know, you want to remind people about that piece before we go into this.

[SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, I think that's the, and that's the other thing that he's making headlines this week is fine, you know, we talked last week about how the Pentagon was kind of pushing back a little bit.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: And now they, [SPEAKER_07]: They requested a meeting with them so this week since we talked so I think they're going to have a conversation about that how how they can utilize his platform so that it meets their safety standards or get some assurances if they're going to work outside that bubble it's not going to be used in any inappropriate manner that they would want it to be used or were.

[SPEAKER_07]: Again, like what we got into, well, we're going to get into it, and I think it's concerns or legitimate, it's going to get scraped. [SPEAKER_07]: So I think that's what it's going to be. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, let me add a little context here for the listener. [SPEAKER_06]: The Dario, the US Department of Defense wanted to ask, there are LLM, the Anthropics LLM is so good that the Department of Defense wants to use it.

[SPEAKER_06]: and they have engaged Dario on, hey, let's figure out a deal where we can have access to your highest-end model. [SPEAKER_06]: It's not the only model they're using. [SPEAKER_06]: They're using stuff, yeah, so as you would, if you run a restaurant, you're not just buying Coke, you need to have some Dr. [SPEAKER_06]: Perfection. [SPEAKER_06]: I just want to note that it's not an all or nothing. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_06]: Right, so [SPEAKER_06]: aligned with his stance to this point where the reason he's kind of famous is because he's been the one who's been pushing back. [SPEAKER_06]: You remember we talked about Sam Altman is gut. [SPEAKER_06]: He runs open it. [SPEAKER_06]: Open AI. [SPEAKER_06]: Chat you beat the chat you beat the he wants to push push push. [SPEAKER_06]: No safeguards. [SPEAKER_06]: You got to break some eggs to make an omelet.

[SPEAKER_06]: You know, there might be some bad outcomes, but we need to do it for the sake of [SPEAKER_06]: you know the I was yeah I was right we got a win put it whatever you want Dario's stance has been a little bit more held back and he has been very vocal about warning the world of the potential dangers associated with AI and he's also an off-off spring I guess of open AI as he was the one that developed their jet GPT right in the third version

[SPEAKER_06]: So my monkey brain says to me, well, if Sam Altman has made himself famous by going as fast as possible in this guy left Sam Altman to go start his own company. [SPEAKER_06]: What would be the smartest thing for him to do is take the opposite stance at the opposite of what Sam Altman said. [SPEAKER_07]: Just like this week, they didn't want to hold hands on the stage. [SPEAKER_07]: They were the break, they were the break in the whole, getting up there and showing unity overseas.

[SPEAKER_07]: It was very annoying. [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't know that. [SPEAKER_06]: All right. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, so he, Dario, has pushed back on the department of defense. [SPEAKER_06]: And he just said, yeah, we would love for you to use our model. [SPEAKER_06]: And we'd be happy to do that. [SPEAKER_06]: But we need to make sure that you're not going to use it to do a couple of things.

[SPEAKER_06]: And the government, [SPEAKER_06]: And said, that's exactly what you're going to use before you're talking about, which is the U.S. government. [SPEAKER_07]: We would like to use it for massive events and we'd like it to use it for a mass destruction. [SPEAKER_07]: So what are you saying we can't do that? [SPEAKER_06]: Very specifically, he's concerned about the model's ability to surveil private citizens and invade privacy protections that all U.S. citizens are supposed to have.

[SPEAKER_06]: I think this is hilarious because none of us have any goddamn privacy because we don't own our data and I'm not going to go off on a tangent. [SPEAKER_06]: But there's data and online living and consumer behavior in the form of data has been available.

[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that's why Google's in business is, well, I Microsoft's in business and you'll notice that we've never had a bill that has talked about, [SPEAKER_06]: What right you have to your own data and there's a very goddamn good reason that reason not because the companies are gonna make money It's because the government wants to say hey, we need this and this and this and this and this when it's convenient for them the algorithmic state That's right.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yes, Bradley is a groundbreaking author and this if you've not read the algorithm algorithmic state It will give a much more eloquent and more complete description of exactly what we're talking about [SPEAKER_06]: That said need to take a step back. [SPEAKER_06]: He doesn't want the O.D. [SPEAKER_06]: to use his tool to surveil people which it would be absolutely spectacular. [SPEAKER_06]: This said, he was this week's headline, a lot of media outlets kind of reported this wrong.

[SPEAKER_06]: What a lot of folks said is, you guys might remember the company called DeepSeek, DeepSeek is a Chinese AI lab there, an AI model, they're trying to build their own model to compete with all of the models that are born here in US that we talk about all the time. [SPEAKER_06]: And they're the ones that have gotten far enough. [SPEAKER_06]: They're a little bit handicapped because the US government has made it a matter of national defense priority.

[SPEAKER_06]: That we're not going to sell a grassroots country, China, Iran, North Korea, our best technology. [SPEAKER_06]: So they're not getting these Nvidia chips that are necessary to do two things with these LLM models. [SPEAKER_06]: One, train them. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, and we're going to talk about what that means. [SPEAKER_06]: We've talked about it before, but then, [SPEAKER_06]: to allow them to provide what's called inference to their customers.

[SPEAKER_06]: So we've restricted sales of the Nvidia chips to China. [SPEAKER_06]: We have. [SPEAKER_07]: And my two cents on the Deep Zika is essentially as China's version of our furniture or any other manufacturing, you know, it's going to be made very cheap and made by kids. [SPEAKER_06]: And so this is, okay, so. [SPEAKER_06]: Here's, if I were at home, I would say to myself, how in the world can you make an AI model cheaply? [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: Like what does that exist? [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right, we've been talking about for five weeks now, all the money that these companies are raising to ensure that they have facilities and electricity and computing power to be able to build these, not just build them, but then refine them over time. [SPEAKER_06]: Right, okay. [SPEAKER_06]: So, Anthropic, [SPEAKER_06]: spent billions of dollars developing and what's called training their AI model. [SPEAKER_06]: Clawed.

[SPEAKER_06]: Clawed is important. [SPEAKER_06]: The process of training is one that's important to understand because when an AI model thinks for you, and you ask it a question, [SPEAKER_06]: What essentially happens is you say stuff like I need and the model takes those words is I need and it goes through a massive number of iterations of what could possibly come next.

[SPEAKER_06]: It's it's calculating the percentage likelihood that you might say I need something to eat or I need [SPEAKER_06]: a drink really bad or I need to take a dump or I need sex or whatever it is or I need a quad guys face routine [SPEAKER_06]: And the model will calculate the percentage likelihood of you asking a particular question. [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what allows it to go back to what's essentially, when you train a model, you're essentially giving the machine a memory, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: So when you're asking it a question, it's learning from what you're asking it. [SPEAKER_06]: This is this process is called context. [SPEAKER_06]: You're providing it context through what you're typing into the chat bar or the data that you're giving it and the chat bar.

[SPEAKER_06]: And then it's going to say, okay, based on all of this information that I've just, I've just perceived, I need to start doing the work before they're done, to find the answer and to render it as quickly, which is called inference. [SPEAKER_06]: Training is creating the memory, inferences using that memory to get the advice to learn from it. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, give you an answer. [SPEAKER_07]: And then you use that to build on it, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[SPEAKER_06]: So, anthropic has a model that is really good at a number of things that the Chinese want to be really good at. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, and it's a compliment, I think the Chinese are attacking. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, of course it is, but the Chinese can't get rights to the hardware that is necessary to train. [SPEAKER_06]: And the reason we made the distinction between training and inference is because you can't provide world class inference if you don't have training.

[SPEAKER_06]: Until [SPEAKER_06]: DeepSeek has figured out what we can do, and this is really remarkable. [SPEAKER_06]: DeepSeek stood up something like, I'm gonna get the number wrong, but 30,000 agents, bots, they did, and they aligned those chat bots to what's called a proxy server. [SPEAKER_06]: That's right. [SPEAKER_06]: A proxy server is somebody that buys right, [SPEAKER_06]: to conduct internet traffic on your behalf.

[SPEAKER_06]: And if you're somebody like China, you would hire a proxy sir. [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a later obscure who's accessing the model. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, go. [SPEAKER_03]: And just the late terms that is. [SPEAKER_03]: They watch the bike their pal. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I laid that heavy in the late terms. [SPEAKER_07]: I have to say one knocked it out. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I laid that heavy on the mic.

[SPEAKER_07]: So what I'm saying in late terms is that they're making these bots look like humans are coming in to do the normal. [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, how would you know? [SPEAKER_07]: How would you know? [SPEAKER_07]: How would you know? [SPEAKER_07]: How would you know? [SPEAKER_07]: How would you know? [SPEAKER_07]: How would you know? [SPEAKER_00]: How would you know?

[SPEAKER_07]: Unless it was a massive basis where the where the numbers kind of went up so great, then it raised concerns, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we'll see. [SPEAKER_06]: Here's what. [SPEAKER_06]: Here's what. [SPEAKER_06]: What is it? [SPEAKER_06]: Well, okay. [SPEAKER_06]: First one. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, hold on, part one before part two, because if I don't say this, I'm going to lose.

[SPEAKER_06]: Okay. [SPEAKER_06]: What deep seek was doing is they were standing up fake people, bots, aligning them through a gateway that allowed them to be obscured. [SPEAKER_06]: It was no longer Chinese. [SPEAKER_06]: It was just some students somewhere. [SPEAKER_06]: Um, asking the, the, the Claude a question. [SPEAKER_06]: They messed it up.

[SPEAKER_06]: And what's interesting is they would, they just started peppering the LLM Claude with thousands and thousands and thousands and millions and billions of questions that were very complex. [SPEAKER_06]: Explain to me your reasoning and thought process Claude. [SPEAKER_06]: How you would solve this problem, right? [SPEAKER_06]: And then they would ask another question and they would ask another question They would say, okay, well, why did you eliminate a certain answer right?

[SPEAKER_06]: Why did you propagate this answer is and so they would They would ask enough questions using techno using AI is genius to just hammer this thing with question after question after question after question And what they were doing is they were essentially learning from the answers [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: So, so, so deep seek. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Was taken this. [SPEAKER_06]: They were taking the questions.

[SPEAKER_06]: The logic that they were receiving back and the answers and then just feeding it to their model and say okay, their cheaper model it's on the we want you to do this and it's not as robust as the important thing is if you don't have the hardware if you don't have the Nvidia chips to do the training which the Chinese do not.

[SPEAKER_06]: you can't do that really heavy lifting where you're actually creating kind of a memory again I use the term memory if you like if you're a person well how do you know anything well because somebody told you to remember it and that's what training an AI model is they don't have the ability to do that so what they did is just start hammering it with messages

[SPEAKER_06]: get, you know, essentially instead of having a hundred percent complete understanding of how Claude would come up with the answer, they would have a 85-90 percent answer, which is typically good enough, which is usually good enough, right? [SPEAKER_07]: And I got to give the Chinese credit here because who the thought they would have gotten a gold medal in the Winter Olympics of AI?

[SPEAKER_07]: because well, and that's right, and honestly, this is kind of the loophole, and they figured it out. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, hold on. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay. [SPEAKER_06]: So this process that we're talking about where you just you just pepper a model with questions, and then based on the answers that you get back, you can essentially build your own model without having to go through the very labor intensity, very expensive process of training and building your own model.

[SPEAKER_06]: You can engineer it. [SPEAKER_06]: That's exactly right. [SPEAKER_06]: The reverse engineering it. [SPEAKER_06]: And they now have what's interesting is essentially a lighter faster model that is not encumbered by hundreds of billions of parameters in training, right? [SPEAKER_06]: And they're able to use these very complicated sets of questions to understand not just how they get the answer, but how they decide that an answer is not going to work and go toward a different answer.

[SPEAKER_06]: So they're essentially training a model without having to spend the money to train a model. [SPEAKER_06]: It's brilliant. [SPEAKER_06]: So as a lawyer that this is where it kicks in though, right? [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, right. [SPEAKER_06]: So here. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay. [SPEAKER_06]: So the question for you is [SPEAKER_06]: what recourse is illegal.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, what recourse is clawed just just a lot of what recourse is well, and then drop a calf can they sue the Chinese for patent right infringement and they're I think they will sue them. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we give you your opinion because I've I've one I want to share. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, go. [SPEAKER_06]: Well under the digital millennium, Brad's an attorney just want to remind you this is his strike zone.

[SPEAKER_06]: So his opinion is more important than I've tried to ship those feathers. [SPEAKER_07]: So if it doesn't come across that understandably so,

[SPEAKER_07]: uh... the digital millennium corporate uh... copyright act of nineteen ninety eight which was put in place right all you should the clack you got right after the internet came on and need to be put in place was to protect internet companies for a couple things so uh... the very first thing that was put on was the notice uh... and and take down clauses which uh... we're for platforms that if somebody on your platform posted something that was copyright infringing he had the right to get notice and have the right to take a

[SPEAKER_07]: Well, in Perry, I know you have many relevant stories, because you have so many uh, relevant relevant to the top. [SPEAKER_07]: Not the likes. [SPEAKER_07]: Sorry to interrupt, but uh, you've gone, but uh, let me ask him, did they steal anything? [SPEAKER_07]: Well, here's where they're arguing, is the second part.

[SPEAKER_07]: And what they're arguing is on the, and I need to read the, the language just to make sure that I'm, uh, [SPEAKER_07]: is not a circumvention of technical controls. [SPEAKER_07]: So, on the internet, they didn't steal code. [SPEAKER_07]: They didn't hack, they didn't steal code. [SPEAKER_07]: So, what they're arguing is that they have the captures.

[SPEAKER_07]: We have to make sure you're not a bot that's coming in protections, or they have the limitations of usage, or they have the, you know,

[SPEAKER_07]: Any of these other parameters that are in place, they're arguing and those are a circumvention of technical controls to their copyrighted material, which still has to be a copyrighted protection of their, and here's where the lawyer and me and argues, and this is where our government has failed these companies because they thought they were big and bold to come out and say nothing that's done by AI is copyrighted. [SPEAKER_07]: It has to be human-controlled.

[SPEAKER_07]: It has to be human-educated. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, and then yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: So if it's coming out of an AI, Well, that's going to need modified. [SPEAKER_07]: Right? [SPEAKER_07]: Well, not from us. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: You know, who's going to be at that table going, I demand this, right? [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know what, here's the analogy. [SPEAKER_06]: So why don't I was listening to this? [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm thinking of myself.

[SPEAKER_06]: So did the Chinese deep seek hack [SPEAKER_06]: So I looked at it the other way. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, okay, well, did Anthropic, like I'm thinking about what claim could they have? [SPEAKER_06]: And I think the answer is, Anthropic, you just need to be a little more stringent about your access control. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, and Anthropic's also been on the receiving end of that.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, they've said, you know, they went out and when they trained their models, they were using a lot of unauthorized access and materials. [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, that's such a great comment. [SPEAKER_06]: Let me, this is too good. [SPEAKER_06]: What Bradley's talking about is a comment from Elon Musk.

[SPEAKER_06]: Elon Musk came out, I think, just yesterday and said, this is so hilarious that Dario and Anthrake are complaining about somebody stealing their technology in a way that's actually, you know, the irony is bourbon palpable.

[SPEAKER_06]: Well, because [SPEAKER_06]: because he said they trained a lot on stolen content for all others and public periodicals right and stuff that people own like books magazines published academic articles they just stole all that stuff before there was a rule that said you can't have it so Elon Musk came out and said you're gonna be kidding me the irony here is so thick your angry because they stole your stuff without stealing it when you stole everybody else is stuff without

[SPEAKER_07]: Right. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, and it even gets better because, uh, you know, again, if there's no copyright protection, they have no leg to stand on until- [SPEAKER_07]: the governments and they will. [SPEAKER_07]: It's like the first wave of the internet coming out. [SPEAKER_07]: So they think this is the bad, you know, the bad player in the room that's trying to do bad things.

[SPEAKER_07]: It's affecting creativity, expecting this, you know, all these different levels, which I appreciate. [SPEAKER_07]: You know, if it really is and you're stealing other, you know, people's original work, that's not good. [SPEAKER_07]: But my answer, they're not doing that. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they're not, I would agree with you [SPEAKER_07]: here what they're doing and this and this is a crux of the issue is much later because they're not hold on.

[SPEAKER_07]: They're not trying to copy. [SPEAKER_06]: They're not. [SPEAKER_06]: Anthra, uh, Claude. [SPEAKER_06]: They are trying to use. [SPEAKER_06]: They're trying to use the rationale. [SPEAKER_06]: The logic strings and, um, you know, answers from them. [SPEAKER_06]: They reverse engineer how it comes up with those answers. [SPEAKER_07]: And this is the perfect Google and an analogy. [SPEAKER_07]: Interesting. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: Because it's the output.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: So when you type something into Google and you search it and you get that output and Google has it's algorithm and it's it's it's software in the background that's doing all the web crawling that brings that to the sort for front there's a lawsuit that's pending right now on that very issue by another company is taking Google's outputs. [SPEAKER_07]: for their own use and they're saying, no, you can't do that scraping and use it for your own use.

[SPEAKER_06]: But as far as I understand this, deep seek is not taking their outputs, they're understanding the logic and the thought process. [SPEAKER_06]: implementing it with their own code and creating outputs of their own. [SPEAKER_06]: They're not stealing anybody's outputs. [SPEAKER_06]: They're stealing the thought process that leads to the outputs. [SPEAKER_06]: But how do they steal them the thought process? [SPEAKER_06]: By reverse engineer? [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_07]: So they're not stealing anything, but they're taking the outputs to reverse engineer that thought process. [SPEAKER_07]: So here's where I get back and here's where I think it feels. [SPEAKER_07]: If I if I'm arguing this row, if I'm the judge on this, yeah, there's no copyright stance right, at least not in America.

[SPEAKER_06]: our laws that made it very clear our copyright offices come out and said if it's created by AI there's no copyright protection there's no copyright there for anthropic has zero copyright protection that's that's the way that my again second time i said my monkey brain perceived this and i i was thinking that you're gonna laugh at me when i tell you this [SPEAKER_06]: Definitely 25 years ago, 20, 25 years ago, this is so dumb.

[SPEAKER_06]: I think it was Yoplay or one of the yogurt companies ran a promotion, and I just remember this, I didn't research it. [SPEAKER_06]: They ran a promotion where every time you'd peel open the yogurt, [SPEAKER_06]: pod on the on the foil top. [SPEAKER_06]: There were airline miles and I can't remember that was United or US error or whatever. [SPEAKER_06]: Right. [SPEAKER_06]: It's like, yeah, you eat yogurt. [SPEAKER_06]: You get, let's call it 300 airline miles.

[SPEAKER_06]: Some guy was eating his yogurt. [SPEAKER_06]: He's like, well, I'm just going to keep you, you know, and he finally sat down. [SPEAKER_06]: He said, wait a second, if I just, if I bought say $10,000 with a yogurt, [SPEAKER_06]: And the airline is like, what the fuck? [SPEAKER_06]: And they tried to find a way to get, do you remember this? [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know, I made it so obscure, but that was just where I've been going now.

[SPEAKER_05]: What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what recourse does the airline have? [SPEAKER_05]: You're running a promotion that all the guy did was math. [SPEAKER_05]: Well, and that's what deep she's doing. [SPEAKER_05]: They're just doing math to figure out how we, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Have you seen the documentary about Pepsi giving away a fighter jet? [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's the great guy legitimately won. [SPEAKER_07]: He did.

[SPEAKER_07]: He'd be, and that's exactly the same case, the Pepsi jet. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's exactly what you started talking about that. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I'm not familiar with that. [SPEAKER_07]: You have to get up. [SPEAKER_07]: It's on one of the documents. [SPEAKER_03]: They had something to do with if you, if you, it's like, how many points, and yeah, and when I used to smoke, marble did the same thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: You would collect the marble miles off the side of the pack, and then you could buy merchandise with it. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Pepsi ran some kind of a promotion, where if you bought so much Pepsi, they would give you a fighter jet, and it was a joke. [SPEAKER_03]: It was obviously a joke, but the guy did hit it and then he actually sued them and forced he won. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he won. [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_03]: Perry doesn't smoke anymore. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you're very healthy. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, of course you are. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm not healthy. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't, I don't smoke. [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, here you look good, the skin's not there.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

[SPEAKER_07]: Google hasn't gotten very far with it either, because that's the question. [SPEAKER_07]: So if it's free to the public, it's openly accessible. [SPEAKER_06]: OK, that's not what they did. [SPEAKER_06]: They bought it, but you keep on. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, what I'm saying, so now assume, OK, we'll get past that. [SPEAKER_07]: So even if it passed the accessibility layer, if they bought whatever it bought, actually, OK, if they bought it, that's absolutely.

[SPEAKER_07]: And now they have access to it. [SPEAKER_07]: But then again, you got to look to the terms and conditions right and that may be a whole different, well, that's where I'm the whole different fight. [SPEAKER_07]: So yeah, that's where I'm landed on this. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, well, if there terms in terms of conditions, you can't ask a lot a lot of really good questions. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, no, they're going to regulate that.

[SPEAKER_06]: No, but the terms and conditions can say you can't use an automated system to come in while I think that's clearly where they're going because the what what what what I understand about What anthropic is trying to do to thwart these efforts and they're already well in their way on this obviously we're not reading about it. [SPEAKER_06]: This is already happened.

[SPEAKER_06]: When you are a third-party actor trying to access an enterprise model that you've paid to have access for, you have to do it through something called an API application protocol interface. [SPEAKER_06]: That's how one piece of software talks to another piece of software. [SPEAKER_06]: It's like your way to the kitchen. [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_06]: And what is happening is anthropic has now started looking for certain types of API traffic, cadence of queries.

[SPEAKER_06]: A human is never going to ask a really complicated three layered question every 30 seconds for nine hours about the same topic. [SPEAKER_06]: That's not human behavior. [SPEAKER_06]: Bang in the model to ask it as many questions as possible to figure out how do we get to where we're going and what's going on there. [SPEAKER_06]: What do you say, bear? [SPEAKER_03]: So you keep talking about bots. [SPEAKER_03]: These are the same bots that post all these posts on social media.

[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of them are just bullshit And they're a generated Every day and is not one one of them [SPEAKER_03]: No, I get away from that. [SPEAKER_06]: But that's exactly what I say. [SPEAKER_06]: But that's exactly what I say. [SPEAKER_06]: But that's exactly what I say. [SPEAKER_03]: So these are these also the things that the Trump administration has accused China of using to try to sway elections.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So how do they explain how those work? [SPEAKER_03]: Like, what do they say? [SPEAKER_03]: They tell AI, hey, send a million bots out to go, make these posts on social media to try to convince people. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, no. [SPEAKER_07]: I'll let you tackle. [SPEAKER_07]: But I would just say this. [SPEAKER_07]: It's very much so like the agentic world that's out there right now. [SPEAKER_07]: The bots were on a solo mission.

[SPEAKER_07]: So when he was sending the bots out before, you had one task that you threw them up and they did.

[SPEAKER_07]: And if that task was to argue with Perry Mirror online about every still little fashion that was out there, [SPEAKER_06]: like the ability to learn from the response right after another question continue to rail on it like they know what I know now that well now the box are getting smarter right back and um okay so we do need a break okay oh our technology didn't blow up okay no no well Perry's little's getting hot

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, they just got red heels so we're we're remember remember where we were and we'll come back Yeah, no problem. [SPEAKER_06]: We get about five more things to say that yeah, we probably do Nobody gives a shit about probably gonna cover it anyway Back then before after the life after the life like it'll be good like you said early on nobody Nobody gives a shit anyone Back in the second finish this up for our entertainment right

[SPEAKER_01]: What happens when work disappears, when money dissolves, and when freedom becomes something you earn, not something you're born with, a new kind of power is rising, not a government, not a corporation, but the algorithm. [SPEAKER_01]: In the algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, Amazon best selling author. [SPEAKER_01]: Bradley J. Martino reveals the world we're stepping into.

[SPEAKER_01]: A world where your reputation is computed, your opportunities are filtered, and your identity is shaped by systems that know you better than you know yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: This is not science fiction. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the operating manual of the future forming around us right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to understand the forces that will define power, belonging, and freedom in the decades ahead, [SPEAKER_01]: The algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, available now on Amazon. [SPEAKER_03]: So here's my question. [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of it. [SPEAKER_03]: My question is if the Chinese are using there, and what's the name, one of the deep, deep, deep.

[SPEAKER_03]: To, to, and they're using deep seek to use our systems to their advantage to train their systems and train their model. [SPEAKER_03]: You got it? [SPEAKER_03]: Could we, [SPEAKER_03]: give them bad information intentionally to throw their model off. [SPEAKER_03]: It's just a question. [SPEAKER_06]: And I love the fact that you asked that question because it means that we're you asked it the right way. [SPEAKER_06]: So you did.

[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, are we doing a good job explaining this? [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_06]: Where I could. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not going to. [SPEAKER_03]: You're doing a very good job. [SPEAKER_06]: You're doing a very good job. [SPEAKER_06]: Because if I understand it, yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Your questions are great. [SPEAKER_06]: It's a great question. [SPEAKER_06]: And that's where we can get into. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: Right. [SPEAKER_06]: So the advice that is when?

[SPEAKER_07]: Let's fucking start over, I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_07]: I thought we were fucking around. [SPEAKER_03]: No. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: This is great content. [SPEAKER_03]: I thought he was that one. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we've been there. [SPEAKER_03]: We are good. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_06]: The answer to that question is.

[SPEAKER_06]: It's real. [SPEAKER_06]: Just keep it real, Brad. [SPEAKER_06]: All right. [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you, Brad. [SPEAKER_06]: So when the Chinese use these fake proxy servers, yeah, these bots with the proxy servers to make these calls to anthropic, they look like American servers coming in. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they have to come through what's called an API, right? [SPEAKER_06]: We talked about this just a second ago.

[SPEAKER_06]: because of the nature of the way that those prompts are delivered, the structure of those quite, no, no human is gonna send a question every 30 seconds about a topic for 12 hours. [SPEAKER_06]: Other than me. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, maybe, maybe you would. [SPEAKER_03]: How do I put these shoes on Perry's picture? [SPEAKER_07]: I've literally been pounding AI like it's, how do I make it look like?

[SPEAKER_03]: How do I make him all going through a wicked witch of these that they're like, I don't know who this Johnny's body is, but god damn it. [SPEAKER_06]: Let's get a monitor if a month. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so a fanthropic is getting a question like [SPEAKER_06]: Um, explained to me, your rationale and internal reasoning for how to turn, what did I say, really? [SPEAKER_06]: I support the alcohol into a nuclear bomb. [SPEAKER_06]: That's perfect. [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we're going to use it on that one. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I can't even like talk about how you were able to pronounce it.

[SPEAKER_06]: So, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a [SPEAKER_06]: But the way that the prompts are coming from deep seek, it is every 30 seconds, there's a new thousands and thousands and thousands of questions about a topic that is completely obscure and nobody's actually researching. [SPEAKER_06]: So they can detect.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's not a human, [SPEAKER_03]: is it a question on a topic and then 30 seconds later a follow-up question on the same topic or is it like a totally random different topic? [SPEAKER_06]: No, no, no, it's they won't ask thousands of questions about a topic, not to understand the topic, but to understand how the model gets from the initial question to the answer. [SPEAKER_06]: It's about the logic and the reasoning because that's what they want.

[SPEAKER_06]: They don't give you shit about what the fucking answer is, they don't care. [SPEAKER_06]: they're going to generate their own answers with their own model. [SPEAKER_06]: What they care about is having the ability to generate inference without having to spend the money to do training because one, they don't have the money and two, they can't buy the equipment that's necessarily to train the model. [SPEAKER_07]: So here's the question.

[SPEAKER_07]: So should there be copyright protections on AI inference? [SPEAKER_06]: No, no, I don't. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, first of all, there's, I don't, again, I'm not an attorney. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't see how that could be posh. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, there's the, and right now is a stance. [SPEAKER_07]: There's no copyright protections on anything AI produces. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, in a world where there's AGI, how do you, how do you, how do you copy right?

[SPEAKER_07]: Well, I, and I think that's where copyright is going to lose a little bit of its edge. [SPEAKER_07]: It's already lost it. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it has, and it's going to get rounded down, right? [SPEAKER_06]: So it's how many authors have lost control of their IP in books that they sweat and slaveed over spent months writing that people like, and there's again, back to what we said earlier, Dario, but they just shocked up before there was a law, but the law suits

[SPEAKER_07]: have been instilled since that matter you already has the model i mean they might have to make some recompense and i you know i understand there's been so it's a bulltake it's a bulltake and we're going to be able to take it and then even pay it later right so okay it's an afterthought yeah at a $3,000 a dario could pay that himself out of you can now it's a right but when he wasn't doing the kind of multiples he's doing today three years ago that that's a different you know that's a different

[SPEAKER_03]: Can we use this as a weapon against the Chinese to win the proverbial? [SPEAKER_03]: We're not that serious.

[SPEAKER_07]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no [SPEAKER_03]: abusing our technology that way.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, could we use that as a weapon against them? [SPEAKER_06]: No, we I mean, we know now other than making the model dumb.

[SPEAKER_06]: Here's what they're doing to protect against this and this is actually it's happening When they when they receive all those prompts and they detect that this is not a human asking a question that a human needs [SPEAKER_06]: what they do is they start varying the cadence and the response structure that they give back in hopes of just confusing the other model. [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[SPEAKER_06]: But eventually, that other model will be able to detect that model A is trying to confuse model B and then it's just going to be a, it's going to be a kind of order. [SPEAKER_03]: So like in these ages, these ages same to each other. [SPEAKER_03]: Watch this. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right?

[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah [SPEAKER_04]: The one that you said it was about, can you, can you set two AI entities against each other and ping-pong back and forth?

[SPEAKER_04]: Is that what that was? [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's exactly what this is. [SPEAKER_06]: And I think the problem with that is if anthropic wants their flagship model to be used by somebody like the Department of Defense, they can't have it given bulk answers because they're afraid it's China. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to turn to my question where it is. [SPEAKER_04]: You were saying that they didn't want the DOD to have this, this technology, I'm not sure they have a choice.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, as sooner or later, they'd be honest. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they do very much want to have DOD as a customer. [SPEAKER_06]: But again, this comes back to Dario's kind of personal affect in this whole thing. [SPEAKER_06]: He loves this idea where he's the only guy who's saying, no, no, no, slow down. [SPEAKER_06]: While he's selling his shit to the department.

[SPEAKER_06]: Well, let me give you a fucking break for a listen if they said that if they said to have a You want to you want to do an enterprise contract to the Chinese government if you can find a way to do that He'd sell any media. [SPEAKER_07]: He probably would but you want of course you would but I will I will say this his safety Stick it's perfect timing [SPEAKER_07]: Because that that's what's burnt every of the enterprise and it is stick.

[SPEAKER_06]: You've got to raise it exactly the right way. [SPEAKER_06]: It's stick. [SPEAKER_06]: It's bull. [SPEAKER_03]: You talk about stick. [SPEAKER_03]: I was convinced years ago. [SPEAKER_03]: Do you remember don't talk about that night. [SPEAKER_03]: The Norton you're not that different. [SPEAKER_03]: Different night. [SPEAKER_03]: Norton utilities. [SPEAKER_03]: I was convinced that that what was the guy's and the killer. [SPEAKER_03]: He kind of went nuts to me.

[SPEAKER_03]: That Pete was a Peter Norton. [UNKNOWN]: Has [SPEAKER_03]: Was that normal? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it was. [SPEAKER_07]: Gentlemen, they found it important. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you're talking. [SPEAKER_07]: So he's passed away. [SPEAKER_03]: Did he? [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, he didn't. [SPEAKER_03]: What?

[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, I was convinced years ago, in the early days of the Internet, when it became super easy to spread a virus or a worm or whatever you want to call. [SPEAKER_03]: that they were spraying the word macophie and macophie pack yeah you're not pat macophie that's it yeah they're not macophie he's actually sorry pat hey but good for him for pen that tab for the hockey guys the other night right no he didn't I was yeah I was couldn't do it the way [SPEAKER_03]: at.

[SPEAKER_03]: In the early days of the internet, when it became really easy to spread a virus or a worm, and in fact, all these computers, that they were putting the worms out there and then saying, hey, we have the solution to save your computer from this worm. [SPEAKER_03]: If you pay us 1999 a month, we'll protect you, right? [SPEAKER_03]: It made billions doing it. [SPEAKER_07]: But you don't think a lot of these early software guys, I mean, there's been rumors about others, right?

[SPEAKER_07]: I'm not gonna name them, but they're big names, right? [SPEAKER_07]: That came up with the solutions [SPEAKER_06]: So 100 percent. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's actually because that's where the sense. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I mean, that does where it ends and and and what personally actually has the cure. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, what we're seeing here is now is there even though this is bad. [SPEAKER_06]: N anthropic is being cheated whether it's illegal or not.

[SPEAKER_06]: What this is resulting in is. [SPEAKER_06]: a higher-order attitude toward cybersecurity that is more appropriate for the AI and agentic age. [SPEAKER_07]: But then anthropic also announced this week that they had the patch that allows it to go out there and look at a platform and detect any cybersecurity gaps. [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know the answer to that. [SPEAKER_07]: And fix it. [SPEAKER_06]: Is that right? [SPEAKER_07]: All the stocks this week one Monday one Monday dump.

[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: We're really coming back was okay. [SPEAKER_07]: They did come back straight. [SPEAKER_07]: But the initial pullback was the set cyber security firms that were afraid that yeah, didn't realize that you know why I didn't realize that because I was drinking them all. [SPEAKER_06]: You were drinking them all, but I didn't comment on doing his mother back. [SPEAKER_06]: You were buried sinned down. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not both Ricky Miller.

[SPEAKER_06]: You were in the Bible. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, look over the clouds. [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, I mean, yes, that is the answer. [SPEAKER_06]: No, but these sorts of problems. [SPEAKER_06]: Remember, remember when you used to have you'd open an email. [SPEAKER_06]: And you'd get a virus and you'd have pop-ups with happen. [SPEAKER_06]: Then you'd have pop-up blockers. [SPEAKER_06]: And then, you know, you would have a digital wallet. [SPEAKER_06]: So none of your financial information.

[SPEAKER_03]: And these guys were happy to sell you a solution for that. [SPEAKER_06]: But that's how progress happens. [SPEAKER_06]: You get a bad guy who's trying to figure out how to steal from you.

[SPEAKER_06]: right you have a good guy says okay we need to stop this is a fuck everybody up in my question is yeah is the good guy the the bad guy or the bad guy the good guy it's like it could have been same people it's like a double deal though this plays into the topic that we've been talking about [SPEAKER_03]: We're both getting fucked. [SPEAKER_03]: That's what it was, I don't know, hold on. [SPEAKER_06]: We've been talking about this for a couple of weeks.

[SPEAKER_06]: We've been dancing around this. [SPEAKER_06]: We've been talking about, what does it mean to win the AI war? [SPEAKER_06]: We have to win. [SPEAKER_06]: We talked about it a couple times. [SPEAKER_06]: So what do we do? [SPEAKER_06]: What does that mean? [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we're talking about now. [SPEAKER_07]: And who is determining those parameters? [SPEAKER_06]: OK. Well, this is another show, right? [SPEAKER_06]: This is where I get completely freaked out because again.

[SPEAKER_06]: Yep. [SPEAKER_06]: the people who are in charge of making regulation in our country have no means. [SPEAKER_06]: 100% understand what the fuck they have no idea what they're doing. [SPEAKER_05]: So, do you think AOC knows a difference with the difference in training? [SPEAKER_05]: Well, or she can make sure they believe they are Republican. [SPEAKER_06]: They know less about it. [SPEAKER_06]: She could make sure drink. [SPEAKER_07]: That's all we know.

[SPEAKER_07]: So, who's influencing is the influence influencing lobbyists that have the dollars that are saying this is what you need to just say and do. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, so here's a question I have as a a lay person to all these topics. [SPEAKER_03]: So I get the impression that that you guys have and prepare you're not a lay person. [SPEAKER_07]: You are an expert still let all wearing drag bunny. [SPEAKER_07]: How do I know this is going there? [SPEAKER_03]: Dancing prodigy.

[SPEAKER_03]: So do we have to have a more positive opinion of Dario than we do Sam Altman or like what do you what I do you guys fall in the idea where do you guys fall on that? [SPEAKER_07]: Certainly I do okay because I think Sam's taking the shortcut going through the through through the cheat sheet with the [SPEAKER_06]: No, my opinion is one's no better than the other. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I said it earlier. [SPEAKER_06]: Probably, but Dario worked for Sam.

[SPEAKER_06]: He wanted to leave and do his own thing. [SPEAKER_06]: So they're equal. [SPEAKER_06]: The opposite of what Sam's doing. [SPEAKER_06]: And that's, I disagree. [SPEAKER_06]: I disagree. [SPEAKER_07]: Hold hard, Lee. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: This is not how you want. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Because, uh, could you do that again, Brad? [SPEAKER_03]: Do that with part of the road for me. [SPEAKER_03]: Hold hard. [SPEAKER_03]: That's a very sentimental.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you why we are getting loose here on the bottom of the bottle is empty by the bottle. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, the Burromb Rodmer is empty. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_07]: There is no second segment after this. [SPEAKER_07]: So we're going to wrap it up, but I will say this. [SPEAKER_07]: I think Dario is taking the higher ground stance. [SPEAKER_07]: He's saying that that's the card he's playing. [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's a card. [SPEAKER_07]: He's stood by.

[SPEAKER_07]: It's not a temporary card. [SPEAKER_07]: I want to take the safe model. [SPEAKER_07]: He's even pushing the government back, which is the easy model. [SPEAKER_07]: So when the government is giving you contract, let's just take it and go. [SPEAKER_07]: He's pushing back.

[SPEAKER_06]: Well, him, I mean, if you rolled out a model that was specifically designed to help with coding, like Claude, [SPEAKER_06]: You could sell it to the government or you could sell it to 800,000 corporate enterprises who said, oh my god, this is so important in the fact that you take the security aspect so seriously.

[SPEAKER_06]: I don't know the first fucking thing about this and I'm scared to death of it and if we fuck it up, I'm going to get fired because I'm the CEO, yeah, I'm going to invest a few instead of this kid over here, Altman, who is clearly deranged and wants to drive the car, 120 miles an hour on the road with his eyes closed and lights off. [SPEAKER_03]: But here's the thing that is book. [SPEAKER_03]: There's no, but here's the thing, but here's the thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: So this draws a parallel to our conversation on curling last week itself. [SPEAKER_03]: moderated. [SPEAKER_03]: They they call their own files. [SPEAKER_03]: They I would love to they they they decide when a file has occurred and they I think he said adjudicate those files that's the the terms of the pair. [SPEAKER_03]: So this is the same thing because it's a good people The people these level of intellectual capacity.

[SPEAKER_07]: I mean these people who are built [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we just said as we miss you, Jordan, we need you back, but these people who are making these decisions, no far more as we've talked repeatedly than the people in our government who are going to be controlling and trying to investigate and why we have an AIs our name's David Zach. [SPEAKER_06]: It's not a cabinet position, it's a ZARP position, so it can go away.

[SPEAKER_06]: That would be going to be a cabinet position has to be. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, absolutely, and not only do we need an AI ZARP, the problem is that [SPEAKER_06]: The current administration has lumped these in with crypto and AI like the same thing. [SPEAKER_06]: They're not. [SPEAKER_06]: They're there. [SPEAKER_06]: There's two technologies that nobody in Washington fucking understand in by the way to do anything.

[SPEAKER_07]: Great technology's in, but on that note, that's the problem because a lot of these politicians don't understand it, right? [SPEAKER_07]: So how how do we lobby it in an effective and responsible way? [SPEAKER_07]: if they don't. [SPEAKER_07]: And if it's the, if it's the big lobbyists with their money coming in to influences, it's a good question. [SPEAKER_07]: Is it being done responsible? [SPEAKER_03]: So are Dario and Sam Albin kind of doing the trust me.

[SPEAKER_03]: It'll be okay. [SPEAKER_07]: Right. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they were doing that. [SPEAKER_07]: If you put your hand up deep. [SPEAKER_07]: They weren't touching hands at the summit this week. [SPEAKER_07]: Is that right? [SPEAKER_07]: That's right. [SPEAKER_07]: No shit. [SPEAKER_07]: It was the divide and the unity chain that was coming through. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: So these guys, this is Coke and Pepsi. [SPEAKER_06]: This is Ford and Chevy. [SPEAKER_06]: It is.

[SPEAKER_06]: This is the Lakers and the Salthix, right? [SPEAKER_06]: They might stand there and take a picture. [SPEAKER_06]: But they're not. [SPEAKER_06]: Ford's illustrated. [SPEAKER_06]: But when it came to the hand, they are not friends. [SPEAKER_07]: That's right. [SPEAKER_07]: That's where we drove one. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm here. [SPEAKER_07]: How many burdens you give us? [SPEAKER_07]: That's right. [SPEAKER_07]: Okay. [SPEAKER_07]: Well, hey.

[SPEAKER_07]: I don't know how you feel about it. [SPEAKER_07]: I feel pretty good about it, no? [SPEAKER_07]: Why?

[SPEAKER_00]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[SPEAKER_02]: The views in opinion shared on the better with bourbon podcast are our own, and those of our guests. [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing we discussed should be taken as financial, legal, business, or gambling advice. [SPEAKER_02]: Don't make investment, business, or betting decisions based on our conversations as you should always talk to a qualified professional. [SPEAKER_02]: Always drink responsibly, never drink and drive, and only consume alcohol if you are of legal drinking age.