Liane Moriarty

Hi, book lovers. This is Ellen Hildebrand, bestselling author of 30 books, including Swan Song and The Perfect Couple. We're back. That's right. And this is Tim Ehrenberg, creator of Tim Talks Books. And you're listening to Season 2 of Books, Speech, and Beyond, presented by N Magazine.

We're so excited to be back in the studio for another great season talking about the wonderful world of books with guests from bestselling authors to publishing industry insiders to book influencers and so much more. Because there's nothing Ellen and I love more than chatting about books. And our favorite question to ask each other is, what are you reading?

But we'll go even further here on this show, exploring the craft of writing, the process of book publishing, and that wonderful connection a reader has with your favorite book. But before we head into our episode, we want to take this opportunity to thank our incredible premier sponsors. Nantucket Book Partners, The Nantucket Hotel, Book of the Month Club, Cardolina, and Triple Eight Distillery.

Without their generous support, we wouldn't be able to bring you these fascinating conversations with some of the most dynamic leaders from the book world. So thank you. And now onto the show. Hi, Ellen. Hi, Tim. Okay, usually we start these podcasts with bubbly conversations about reading and what our favorite characters and all our favorites. But today we're going to be a little bit more...

profound and deeper and we're going to talk about a subject that not a lot of people love to talk about, but it's death. Yeah. And we're going to talk about it because I feel like in society, it's something that we should be talking about more. It's inevitable for all of us. We're all going to die. We're all going to face this. And we've shared in the podcast a couple of times that you and I have both had some tragic loss in our lives. You lost your father to a plane.

crash and I lost my sister to cancer in 2017. Way different ways to experience a loss. Right. Can you talk about yours a bit? So, I mean, I was 16 years old. I was a junior in high school and we were getting ready to leave for school and we got a phone call that there had been a plane crash and my father had been going to bond closing up in upstate New York and it was a small plane coming home. Anyway, he was dead.

And the whole world just like, I mean, my whole world just stopped. And my brothers and sisters and I, I mean, it was absolutely, it absolutely is the moment in my life more than anything else as a child or adult.

that divides my life between before and after. Yeah, it's crushing. And then, I mean, for me with my sister, we knew she was going to pass. And I think that sometimes it's the question of like, oh, what would you rather have? Would you rather know that someone that you could say goodbye and have closure? Or is it, you know, which way is better?

I think there's no way to answer that question, but do you have any thoughts on that? Well, I mean, yeah, I wish I'd been able to say goodbye. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that is in so many ways a blessing. And also having been sick and having myself been sick and in a moment where...

I mean, I think the health professionals surrounding me when I was having breast cancer, I got an infection, as you know, and was helicoptered off Nantucket. And it was very serious. And they told me to say goodbye to my children and that I was able to have that moment with them again.

Spoiler alert, I lived. I'm fine. But I mean, it was really terrifying. But I was so grateful to be able to say goodbye to them. Yeah. And another moment for you within this topic. So this will make sense why we're bringing this up. And it makes sense because of our guest today, who I am such a huge, huge...

fan of. I can't wait to interview her. It's Leanne Moriarty. She is the author of the number one New York Times bestsellers, Big Little Lies, Apples Never Fall, The Husband's Secret, and Truly Madly Guilty, The New York Times bestsellers Nine Perfect Strangers, What Alice Forgot, and The Last Anniversary.

The Hypnosis' Love Story and Three Wishes, and her newest sure-to-be-a-bestseller, Here One Moment. She lives in Sydney, Australia with her husband and two children. Welcome to Book Speech and Beyond, Leanne Moriarty. Welcome, Leanne. Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here. So I interviewed you. We just talked before we came on the show. I interviewed you on a panel in 2014. So I sort of know the answer to this question because.

Your story is so great. But can you tell our listeners how you got started writing novels and how you got published? Yes. So when I was a little girl, I loved to write stories. I'm the eldest of six children. And so both my next sister down and I also, she also liked to write stories. And when my dad discovered this, he was a sort of self.

made small businessman. So he said, well, I will commission you to write stories for me. So he basically gave us our first publishing deals. Actually, I don't have, it's not relevant for a podcast. But anyway, I've got a little, I was going to say I could show you one of the first books that he commissioned for me, which I commissioned somebody else to do the illustrations for me because I wasn't a good drawer. And it was called The Secret of Dead Man.

Island. So he used to pay us for our novels and then he had a little roulette wheel and then he'd play roulette against us and win back all the money that he'd paid us for the novels. That's pretty funny. But then as I got older, I wrote less and less. So I lost that crazy self-confidence that I had as a child where I would sit down and just write for the pleasure of writing.

And so I then went into a career in advertising copywriting, or at least I could write for a job. I should have gone into journalism. That's what I'd talked about doing, but somehow I ended up in copywriting. And then one day my sister, who is the author Jacqueline Moriarty, called to say that her first book, Feeling Sorry for Celia, had been accepted for publication. And so...

You know, I was thrilled for her because I love her dearly, but I was also sort of filled with rage, really, because she'd gone ahead and achieved our childhood dream. And I hadn't even given it a shot. So that was what inspired me to then write my first novel. which is, well, what I did was I enrolled in a master's degree and that's what got me to finally finish my book. So I always say if it wasn't for Jackie, I wouldn't.

have written my first novel. She says, yes, you would because she's lovely, but I know I needed her to make me do it. That is such a great story. And I remember you telling that story on the panel and I just thought, oh my gosh, there's nothing like sibling rivalry or professional jealousy to really motivate someone. So how easy, so you went to a master's degree and then how, I don't know how it works in Australia.

How then, how easy or how difficult was it to get what you wrote published? And was it an Australian publisher or how did it work? So actually, I missed a little part of the story before I enrolled in the master's degree. I wrote a children's book and it was around the time of the Sydney 2000 Olympics. So I must have been leading up to it.

And so that book was enthusiastically rejected by every publisher in Australia. Gotcha. So that's when I calmed down. I think I probably wrote that in a rush and I did the master's degree. And that book, I got an agent, Curtis Brown, here in Australia. And that was accepted for publication right away. So I was very lucky. Oh, great. And it was published internationally.

as well. And it did nicely, you know, it wasn't a huge bestseller. And I must admit, I've always kept myself a little bit oblivious of the publishing world. So to me, it was just, it was great. People had a publisher, they wanted to keep publishing it. I wasn't aware, you know, in interviews now people say, so you didn't really make it until your fifth book. But to me, I think I was being published. I was perfectly happy.

Right. That's so exciting. Okay, so you don't say to yourself that The Husband's Secret or obviously Big Little Lies was like your breakout book. You were just happy to continually write novels and have them published. Oh, no, I do say no. It's true. I say it was my breakout book because it was. I guess what I'm saying is I wasn't aware.

that I needed a breakout book. Right, okay. I was thrilled when it happened. Yeah. And it's absolutely true that it was a different level. But I guess I wasn't... I just I'm sometimes aware as if it was all misery until then. It was it wasn't. I was enjoying myself. Right. Gotcha. Listener, if you want more details to her origin story, her bio, Leanne's bio on her website is so much fun. I loved reading it. It's a whole. story in and of itself. I love that you said your first word was glug.

And I actually found the word glug in your new book, Here One Moment. Do you put it? Yeah, it's in there. I thought it was funny. It was a cute thing. I didn't know I did that. You talk about writing first chapters in that bio and how they never really made it.

it anywhere past the first chapter, but then you went to the master's degree and you got to publish Three Wishes. What did you learn in that master's program that you think allowed you to get past that first chapter and hand in a finished book? I may have been able to have achieved that just joining a writer's group because for me it was just being with a group of people. I've heard of some masters.

degrees where you have very aggressive people who are very critical of your work but this was a group of lovely supportive women and I can always remember coming home each night so you'd read out a little part of your of what you're working on and they'd say nice things and so I can remember coming home and my cheeks would still be warm from because I'd still be blushing with the

the pleasure of having people say nice things about my book. So really, I think it was just that. And because I'm a good student, so I wanted to do my homework and perhaps a little bit of a show off. So I wanted to... write more than the others. So it was that that got me.

That sounds so much lovelier than Iowa's right. Yours was so cutthroat. It really was. I was in one of the very aggressive, I was in one of the very aggressive programs, the most aggressive program in the country, in the United States. I went to the University of Iowa, which was very, very aggressive.

Yeah, you would come home crying. I came home with my cheeks would be red because I would be sobbing. And I'd be drunk. Also, I'd be drunk. So that was another problem. We all went to the bar right after workshop. I would be drunk and crying. Two different ways for success right here. Did it help? Well, like you said, it's always good. Like a great motivator is to be accountable.

Right. So the number one thing I think that any writing group and it can be an MFA program or it can be like your neighborhood writing group is that you're accountable to people. Right. And you have you want to turn something into them. And so there was accountability and I am also a good student and I wanted to do good work, but it was a lot, it was very competitive and a lot tougher, but it made me tough. And also, you know, I'm the kind of person that finishes things.

As I've said, I think possibly before in this podcast, I was not the most talented writer at Iowa by a long shot, but I could get my work done. Like I always finished my stories. They were always on time. And then that is what ended up serving me in the real world. I want to dig in a little bit. So I don't think, I don't know if I told you this when I met you before, but I spent five winters, Australian summers living in Perth, Australia. So I consider myself to be an honorary Australian.

I know what a flat white is. I know what a short black is. I've got the whole thing. But what I have never really figured out, books in Australia are so expensive. Would you say that's true? Yes, yes, that is absolutely true. I guess. just because we've got a smaller publishing industry. So we're very, obviously a much smaller population. So we're very lucky to still have a publishing industry that we can still support.

local authors. Yes, it's absolutely true. Yeah, because I would go to, is it Dimex? Dimex? And I would be like, oh my gosh. Like how much? Well, like $40 for a hardcover. That was back then. That was back in like... Well, I was there in 2003, four and five. So that was a long time ago, almost 20 years ago. Oh my goodness. But I mean, that's how much books cost then. And then, so then I guess my question is, as an Australian writer, you were...

Published in Australia. And then when did you break out to the United States? And is that the goal, do you think, of young Australian writers now? And I want to make one other comment, which is my very favorite writer of all time, is Tim Winton. who is a Western Australian writer. I absolutely love his work. Nobody in America knows who he is. So can you speak a little bit about sort of the Australia versus the United States as far as publishing and publicity? So I was published.

in the US and in the UK and in parts of Europe right away. And so I was very lucky in that regard. But as you said, it wasn't until my fifth book. that I hit the bestseller lists in the US. But for me, to be able to tell other Australian authors that I was published in the US, that's why I was saying that I still felt...

perfectly happy that they continued to publish me. Yeah, so I don't, and I feel lucky that for some reason my books seem to appeal to American readers. I actually, I assume Tim still did pretty well. internationally because yes of course we're so proud of him here in australia oh my gosh he's the best i mean i know he was shortlisted for the booker and so i think he yes but in america

I would say the average person does not. In fact, most people do not know his work. Except for me, because I'm always talking about it. When I went to Australia, his books are everywhere on display, like the main guy. Right. He's the main dude. Yes, he's out gone. He's your guy. All right, we're going to take a quick break from our conversation so we can thank one of our premier sponsors, Book of the Month.

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I love Book of the Month. I've been a member since 2016, and I have given this as a gift to so many people. My mother, aunts, cousins, friends. Exactly. It's so perfect for people who love to read, but maybe can't get out to the bookstore, don't live near.

an independent bookstore or Barnes & Noble and the book comes directly to your house and the curation is really what's key at Book of the Month because they pick such amazing titles. When it makes you feel like a community because there's a review from someone that they said this is why you should read it and then you pick the person that you...

feel like, oh, that would match my reading likes. And so I just love everything about them. They also have audio books and they have many Ellen Hildebrand books, correct? They do. Yeah, they've taken a number of my books and I'm so grateful. Thank you, Book of the Month.

What about for readers? What is the biggest difference between an Australian reader and a reader from the United States? And are there things that you have to change, like your editor has to change from the US because someone from the US wouldn't get it or wouldn't understand? Yes. So in the beginning... When I wasn't as successful, my US editors would demand that I changed any word that didn't make sense to an American reader. So there's lots of things we call a bubbler.

You call in the schoolyard when you lean down a water fountain. Water fountain. Water fountain. Yes. So things like that. I call it a bubbler. I'm from Wisconsin, though. And they call them bubblers? I definitely say I have to go to the bubbler. 100%. Is the water fountain? Yes. Okay, I have never heard that. Thank you. I want to ask our production guy if he's ever heard it. No, he hasn't either. Okay. Have you heard of bubbler, though?

I thought the bubbler was the water cooler at the office that makes the bubble noise when you put the water in. Okay, never mind. Okay, what else? See, these things are so interesting to me. If the people in Wisconsin would have known what a bubbler was, I should have got them to let it in.

Nappies? Yeah. Nappies. Diapers. Versus diapers. Yeah. Okay. Sometimes it'd be a little thing like a kookaburra. Right, yeah. I know what a kookaburra is because I lived in birth. Yeah. It's a bird. It's a bird with a... a very beautiful bubbling laugh. And to me, I would think that if it made sense in context, we should leave it in because, of course, growing up, I'd always read so many.

books set in America. So most of the time I would know the American word and seeing American television. And I thought that American readers would love to see the words to see Bubblers. And so as I've become more successful. editors, I can push back more and say, let's leave the Australian wording. Unless it would trip the reader up so much that it would take them out of the story.

The trunk of the car versus the boot of the car. Right. So I might leave the trunk in because if, especially if we're in the middle of a scene where the body is going into the trunk of the car, you don't want to suddenly pull the reader out thinking, where are they putting? The body. Not that I've got that particular scene, but something like that. The other thing is my American readers don't like swearing as much. Is that true? So I get lots and lots of.

emails, which whereas Australians, we're terrible swearers. We're just naturally. So I'd have emails from American readers saying, do you talk like that in front of your children? And I would think, yes. What else am I going to say? I am dying. Oh, my God. I mean, that's so funny because I also. So that's so interesting because I also.

got those emails. And then I just stopped putting the F word in my book. I just took it out completely because I'm like, it's just not worth the hassle. The joy of me having the F word in any of my summer novels. or winter novels for that matter. I just started taking it out because I'm like, it's just not worth the hassle. But my new...

boarding school book has got lots of swearing in it. So I definitely sympathize with you there, but I didn't realize it was a particularly American thing because we do swear all the time. Do we share swear words between Australia? Are they the same words? I think, yes, I think they're all the same words. Okay, good. We're just very casual.

I didn't know maybe if you could slip one in that the American reader would know. I loved Australia too much. I did not spend five summers there, but I did go in 2020 and I went to this chicken. I have to bring this up because my husband would kill me if I didn't. I went to this place called Butter.

And they serve chicken sandwiches, champagne, and they sell sneakers. And it's the best chicken sandwich I've ever, ever had in my life. Help me understand that combination. It's a shoe store? No, it's a chicken sandwich and champagne. Because I think they're just known.

for their chicken sandwiches. And so basically, if any Australian listeners are out there and you haven't been to Butter, go to Butter for the best chicken sandwich you've ever had. I'm definitely going to go there, but I don't understand the shoe part. I think it's just really quirky, like, well, why don't we just sell shoes on the side?

Okay, that makes no sense, but I like the chicken sandwich and champagne. Leanne, do you know this? Sure, you were in Australia? Yes, it was in Sydney. You were in Australia? Yeah, it was in Sydney. You got to look it up. Butter. This is one Australian listener who has never heard. Okay, well, if you want the best chicken sandwich of your life, right after this podcast recording, go to Butter. Go for lunch, get your champagne. That is so funny and that Santi wanted you to mention it.

I mean, there are a lot of things I love about Australia, too, and I could go on and on and on. I mean. What's your favorite? Well, so I was out in Perth. So, you know, and we lived in Fremantle. So Fremantle is this town. It's on the water. It's this town of cute little, the cutest little bungalow. bungalows. And the beach is just Kataslo Beach. I mean, absolutely stunning. The Indian Ocean. Yeah, it's a beautiful place. Oh my gosh. I've never, I love it. I will always love it fast. Okay.

Let's dig in a little bit, Leanne. I want to talk about Here One Moment. It's your 10th novel for adults. It's a very high concept novel. Can you talk a little bit about the premise of the book and where you got it? So I was on a flight in Tasmania at Hobart Airport and there was a long delay and I was on my own and I did not have a book to read. And so we were all buckled into our seats.

stuck there. So people were making phone calls to people back home saying, I'm not going to be able to make it. There was one woman who was calling her little girl and She was saying, you have to wake Daddy up because he'll have to make dinner. And it became clear that the little girl could not wake Daddy up. And so I was texting my husband saying, I think...

Daddy's died. She can't seem to wake him up. And my husband was saying, oh, he's just been out for a long lunch. The poor man's just having a nap. And so then I was texting my mother and my sisters on that group text, and they were saying, oh, no, well, I've called it all.

I can't remember her name. Poor little Chelsea, what's she going to have? Anyway, then finally it turned out that he clearly had some sort of drinking problem and this had happened before. He had not died and he got him up. Then there was all this. drama of her having to get a friend to come pick the little girl up and she wanted to talk about it.

Because she started talking about it to her seatmate who was not interested. And I was thinking, I'll come. I want to hear. I'll be ready to sympathise with you about yours. She wanted to tell the whole story of her relationship. my thoughts then turned to death. And so, and it probably was not unexpected. I had death on my mind at that time in my life. So first of all, I had three things happen. So first of all, my sister.

was diagnosed with breast cancer. Then my father died. Then we had the... pandemic. So all of us were thinking about death. And then I myself got diagnosed with breast cancer. So both my sister and I, we're all good now, but it was... Obviously, you start to think about your own mortality. So I was thinking about my own death, just thinking, I wonder how long I've got, things like that. And then I was thinking about the fact that...

Obviously, everybody on this plane is going to die one day. And I was looking at the people around me thinking, you know, will you get to live to 100? Will you be the one whose life is cut short? And I was thinking one day that information will be available. We will know how each of us will all die. Do you think so? No, one day in the future. Right.

You know, when everybody, we've all died. Oh, okay. Yeah. Data will be available. You know what I mean? Yeah. It sort of blows my mind. Oh, gotcha. Yeah, yeah. That it's a fact that one day there'll be a list of all our names. Right, sure.

causes and ages of deaths, which is just obvious. Then, of course, I thought, so what happens if that information was available now? And what happened if somebody walked down the centre of the plane and said, you, you're... die this will be your cause of death and age of death down the down the aisle and I didn't and I thought this that would be a good opening scene oh it's phenomenal the setting on a plane too just perfect

And really, really scary. I mean, scary might not be the right word. It was like, it caused you so much, it causes you so much anxiety. Like, oh my God, like it's a real hook. Yeah. Real hook. Yes. Good, thank you. I know I told some people in the beginning and it's interesting people's feelings about death because some people you would see an almost involuntary expression of disgust at the thought of...

oh, death, they just don't want to think about it. So I was sometimes concerned thinking, well, some people just think, no, I don't want to know about this. But, yeah, so I had that thought, but then... I almost thought I'd let it go because I was thinking, who is this person and how does he or she know? But then it came to me who that person could be and then I was happy. Then I thought, okay, I can.

do this. These high concept plots are one of the reasons why I just love you as a novelist, because it's not just what's on the page when you're reading, it's after you shut the book. And you just start thinking all these things from your own life. And so I think one of the biggest questions this book asks is, if we did know the date of our deaths, would you try to fight that fate? So I kind of want to talk about that. If our tech guy here, Kit, told us, you're going to die.

You're going to die at age 50. You're going to die at age 70. What would we do with that information? And Leanne, did you think about this as you were writing it? Obviously you did. I think when I first thought about it, I thought, you know, when people as... Ellen was talking about earlier when you're sick, people making the best of the last precious days that they have and people who are given terrible news. I think I was thinking people would have these revelations.

But then I realised when I started handing out the predictions that the first, well, number one, you think, I don't believe it, so it's not true, so there'd be a lot of that. And number two, you're not just going to... accept I'm going to die like this, in the same way that anybody with a terminal disease goes for a second opinion, a third opinion. And some people, I think, don't even reach acceptance right until...

the day they die. I know when my father was dying, I remember my sister leant down and she said something, you know, those lines like, you know, you can go if you want to go, Dad. It's almost a movie line. And dad hadn't spoken for quite a while at that point. And he opened his eyes and said, what are you talking about? And my sister went all sorry. Okay. Sorry. You don't have to. He was just.

And so I think, I don't think in his mind that he was ready to go. So, yeah, so with each of my characters, I thought, okay, I'll forget all the beautiful revelations. That's another book. Anyway, it became more about how do you fight fate and how much control do you have over your own destiny? Exactly. So you put a lot of balls in the air in this novel and you have a bunch of characters. So basically.

listener, what happens is these predictions get handed out and then we follow a few of the characters through the next few months. How did you keep it all straight, Leanne? And do you write one character all the way through or do you go back and forth? If you know what I'm asking. So you have, do you write one storyline all the way through or do you keep going back and forth? No, I definitely go back and forth. So I prefer to write as if this is the way that the readers.

going to read it, even though I may then go back and not may, I always will have to go back and change things around. But I'm pretending to myself as if this is the final. the final draft. Right. And I like to suddenly switch out of a different, into a different character and to see that character, the first character from the second character's point of view. But I know...

readers sometimes i've got too many characters so i get that all the time you've got too many characters well you do have a lot of characters and it's hard to keep track i'm just wondering if it's hard to keep track for you i also do that i also have a lot of characters and i also like to switch points of view The more often I switch, the happier I am. And I also like to talk about other characters. And you do it so masterfully in this book.

where one character will be commenting on another and you're sort of in both of their heads and sort of like an omniscient. It's just very, very well done. Yes, I love it. But I do understand as a reader that sometimes when I'm reading a book myself, I think, oh, don't switch.

don't go to another character. I miss the last character. So I keep thinking one day I will write a book from just one character's point of view, but I can't seem, I start writing and then I think it'll be fun to jump into. he's hid as well. With this book, with Here One Moment, I was so excited to get to, but I really want to know what's going on over there with her or with him or with that family. And I have a structure question.

Illinois says when she sits down to write a book, it's like she's moving in with characters into a dorm and she's like getting to know them as she's writing them. Did you know these people's deaths and how they died in their death state before you knew them as people? Or did you know the people and then determine when they're going to die and how? No, I handed out the deaths first. And then just like Ellen, I get to know the characters through the process of writing them.

So I find it hard to write them in the beginning because they feel a little bit cardboard cut out and I can't make them move. And then as I'm writing, I'm thinking, oh, you're this sort of person or you're that sort of person. And, yeah, I just left the deaths as they were. I didn't change any of them as a result of getting to know the characters. The characters had to deal with what they were given.

That's amazing. That's fascinating to me because it's like, no one wants to be defined by their death, but you met these people knowing their deaths. That's crazy. What are our thoughts on fortune tellers? Because this death lady that's giving these things, have you... Either of you went to a fortune teller. Do you believe in fortune tellers and what they? Leon, you say first. Well, I really, I want to believe. I would love to believe. So far.

I have not had anything that's amazed me. I've got friends who, very practical friends, who have been so surprised when I've asked them who I would have thought were not the sort of people. Well, I said to one friend, have you been to a fortune teller? And she said, oh, yes, he moved to the UK, but I still Zoom with him. And I was thinking, wow. And then she was telling me all the things he said.

My other friend and I were saying, oh, that's so, you know, things that he could have guessed from things about everything we could shoot down. But she believed with... all her heart. So I've only got two experiences. One was many years ago at a charity event and they had all these different tarot card readers and I sat down in front of him.

And he was talking away and I said at one point, will I have children one day? And I was in my 30s and I was desperate to have children. And he looked up at me and his eyes met mine and it seemed like... a real human moment where it was like he was letting go of all this silly game that we were playing. And he said, oh, of course you have children, darling. And it didn't feel like he was telling my fortune. He was telling it just as a...

Person, person. I did have children, so, you know. So he was right. And then for this, for research for this book, I thought I better go see a fortune teller. You could tell as soon as she saw me, she thought, oh, I've got you. You are a middle-aged woman. Your children have grown up. You're now thinking, what now? What about me? And so she started saying that sort of thing, waiting for me to...

agree with her. And because I had children quite late, so my children have not moved out of home and I... I was thinking, no, it's pretty much about me. I'm not at that time in my life where I'm looking. I'm an international bestseller, thanks. She did then say, well, what do you... what do you do? She was obviously trying to get information. And I said, I'm a writer, I write books. And she said, well, I think you should do pretty well with that.

And then she said maybe you could just do something a little bit different, not so much with what you're writing, but maybe with the way you're selling your books. Maybe you could sell them on eBay.

Something like that. Oh my gosh. Okay. And so that's when I thought, and she did say one thing about my daughter. She said, oh, your daughter, she's one who likes the good things in life. And I went home and told my... my daughter that and she said oh mum who doesn't like the good things in life that was because I thought oh well that's that's quite accurate but so no I did not believe a word but I love stories of people who've found

You've had, you know, amazing predictions. Yeah. Ellen? No, I am a non-believer. I have never been to a fortune teller. I'm never going to go to a fortune teller. I don't like mediums. My friend Evelyn, you know, my friend Evelyn, she has a medium like on speed dial. Every time the medium comes to Nantucket, she wants me to meet her. I always have something else going on. I'm like, I am not meeting the medium. I really want you to do it one time.

I don't know. I could never do it. I have too much anxiety. And they would say, like, you're going to meet a stranger here. And I'd be like, are you my stranger? I could not do it. I will say that I prepped for this interview, though, because you are a Scorpio, Leanne. So I went on. horoscope.com. So I'm going to give you your horoscope for the day. Are you ready? Today? Thank you.

Today isn't a great day for inspiring enthusiasm in others. You might find that there's a sober, conservative tone to the day that's stealing the fuel from your fire. Realize that this is just part of the natural cycle of things. Don't feel that you need to be up and active all the time. Give yourself a rest and focus your energy inward. Settle your nerves and get down to business. Okay, wow. Does that apply at all?

I'm doing three podcasts today. So after this, I'm going to run three podcasts. Well, you're inspiring enthusiasm today to me. So I'm a non-believer as well. And now, a short break to thank our sponsor, N Magazine and Nantucket Current. N Magazine and the Nantucket Current are the undisputed leading sources of stories and news here on Nantucket.

and magazines of award-winning content and design make it the most effective way to showcase everything from real estate to jewelry to luxury travel and beyond. The Current, with its online readership of nearly 20,000 email subscribers and 3.7 million plus annual website visits, provides readers with up-to-the-minute news and enables advertisers to instantly promote their products to a viewership like no other digital media on the island.

Together, and in the current, are the one-two punch that blankets the island for advertisers seeking to capture one of America's most desirable markets, Nantucket Island. I realize there are podcast producers, but how much do we love Nantucket Magazine and Nantucket Current? I put the Nantucket Current in the acknowledgement page of my final novel. Such is their importance in my life. I absolutely depend, like basically...

I wake up in the morning, like many of our listeners, I reach for my phone and the very first email I get every single morning is from Nantucket Current. So I know what's happening. And N Magazine, I just love all the stories about the community leaders they do, the features and everything. They're all, I mean, the stories are all local. They're really, really interesting. The magazine is gorgeous. I mean, it doesn't get much better. Thank you, N Magazine. Thank you, guys.

I want to talk about the pressure that you both have. You're both such successful writers, many books under your belt. Every time you put another one out, are you feeling this? It has to be better than the next one. What are people going to think? How do you manage that pressure or do you not have it? Well, I definitely have it. And I always feel in the beginning, there's a lot of flailing about for me trying to...

To think of the good things that people say that they like about my books and then thinking about, you know, the thing about, she's always got so many characters and she always, there are things I do that annoy people. And so you're thinking about that. But then I find I just have to start writing and then if I'm interested in it.

then I get to that point where I forget all of that and think. And there's this great time where I'm thinking, well, you can't hurt me now because I'm just having fun writing it. It's going to be ages before you can say a word. And so I'm just thinking, I'm just here having a wonderful time with my characters. So that's, of course, I want readers. I would never say, you know, that question of would you keep writing.

if there was nobody in the world to read your books. I don't think I would. That's part of the process. But yeah, there is that strange feeling where I'm thinking, well, it's just me and my characters now. I feel that way too. But I mean, there is, you know, I'm retired. I have retired the Nantucket summer books with my last novel that just came out, Swan Song. And the reason why I retired is because the enormous pressure for every book to be better.

than the last and to sell better than the last. And I've been blessed in that my sales trajectory has been sort of an upward, you know, I don't know what you call that slope or whatever. So I've succeeded, but I knew it wasn't sustainable. And I knew that if I kept going with Nantucket Summer Books that eventually I was going to deliver one that didn't sell as well or wasn't as appealing. And so I thought before that happens, I'm just going to finish. But I mean, you know.

Leanne, you're in a unique position where you have all of these incredibly successful books so that every time you sit down, are you feeling, oh my gosh, I have to top myself or do you not put that kind of pressure on yourself? No, I am because there's more pressure, I think. especially perhaps this is why I speak so fondly of those early days of the early books where there wasn't such a big deal each time a book comes out. But now there's people, you know, for a fact, people will.

read the book. And that's a funny feeling that people will read it. And some people will definitely come to it with that point of view of, I bet it's not as good as the last one. I bet it's... And people have their... their favorites and there's something that they particularly loved about a book that they may never get again because whatever I'm doing if I'm doing it

similar thing, then they'll think it's too much the same. If it's too different, they'll think it's different. And it was because it was their first experience of that type of book. And perhaps it was at a certain time in their life where it just appealed to them. So I can't make them happy again. I always remember reading, I don't read as much of what's written about me anymore because this was one line that got me, it said, a reader, an author who has passed her peak.

And you think, oh, that's, you know, your most innermost terror and fear is just there. And perhaps I have. And that's, I think my books. At the time that The Husband's Secret and Big Little Lies came out, I was writing when my children were very little and I had to write faster within shorter periods of time. Perhaps my books were tighter. Then perhaps they were more thriller-ish and now I've got more time and I'm enjoying going more into my characters. But the thriller readers are thinking.

I don't care. Don't tell me about how this character feels. Just move it, move it, move it. So that's the thing. If you've got different types of readers, you have to accept that you're not going to. to please everybody yeah I can't remember the question now I went off on my own little thought process no I mean it was about the it was about the pressure and I think you answered it really well which is that there is an enormous amount of pressure

You know, and especially when you have so many readers internationally and you know they're all going to be picking up the book. And in some sense, it just makes it so much harder, I would assume. I want to switch gears a little bit and go to Hollywood. You've been so successful in Hollywood. I mean. really astonishing can you talk about how that started and let's talk about Big Little Lies first of all how did that get made into a show so I just heard that

Nicole Kidman was in town in Sydney, so she's obviously Australian, and that she wanted to meet me to talk about the possibility of optioning Big Little Lies. And I was thrilled to have the opportunity to. meet Nicole but I must say I did not think that anything would come of it because I'd had books optioned before and there would be all excitement and then

nothing happened. So that's with what Alice forgot has been talked about for years and years and still nothing has happened. So I just, yeah, and I said that to her. I said, I was trying to play it cool, saying I know how this. business works. I said, so I know not to get too excited. It may or may not happen. And I can always remember her saying, oh no, if we option it, get excited. We're not optioning it just for the sake of it.

And so, yeah, it came to be. What a great show. Yeah. And I mean, but it had to go through. I can't remember. Did you write? the script david kelly wrote the script david kelly wrote the script yes yeah no i did i had no interest in writing screenplay have you have you written yours for the um no no

I feel exactly the same as you. I don't know how, A, and I don't want to and I don't have time and all the things. And there are people who are such talented screenwriters. So I've got a bunch of projects in Hollywood now and they're all being written by other people. How did you feel? Because I love Australia so much. And one of the things I loved about your book is that it was set in Australia and there were things about like the cafe and the...

you know, that were very Australian, I felt. How did you feel about the move to Monterey? Well, I would have loved for it to have been set in Australia, but I felt that it was still a seaside town and in a way... Perhaps it allowed me to detach a little bit because I could just enjoy it as a viewer and not think everything must be the same. Perhaps I would have held on too closely. But I've always felt when people say...

I hope they don't change your book. I always say, but nobody can change my book. That's still there. This is a completely different medium. You may or may not enjoy it, but nobody can take away what was in your mind.

as you read it. And that to me is really personal. It's my imagination and each individual's reader's imagination. So every single reader has a tiny different... movie playing in their head so they we it doesn't matter if this other adaptation is the same or not and every single actor this is what i've come to realize they bring things from their own

And they're bringing people that they know in the same way that we as authors, when we're writing, we're, you know, taking little bits and pieces from people we know. They do the same thing. So they take gestures and things. It's just completely, completely different. But I do have my second novel, The Last Anniversary, has been adapted and that's set exactly in Australia where it was set.

and where I was when I first came out with the idea. So I'm excited about that. Okay, that is exciting. I'm just going to say, because Australians, well, what I've noticed from my time there is that they're very proud of their country. And love. So I'm wondering like when Big Little Lies, although it was such an enormous smash hit in the States, were there people in Australia who were like, it wasn't set in Australia the way it should have been? Did you get a lot of that? You must have.

Yes, I did. And they're cross with me. They're cross, yeah. How could you let that happen? Yeah. But they seem to think I have much more power. I know, right? I know. I know. Leanne, Ellen mentioned that Here One Moment is your 10th novel. Is there a theme throughout all of your books or a thread that you can see through all 10 of them? To me, they always feel very different. I feel like other people can pick up things. Certainly, I seem to keep returning to the desire.

to have children or the decision about whether or not to have children. I don't know that I did it in this one. Oh, yes, I did. No, I did. So there's still, yeah, so there's certain things that you return to. And so it's obviously something because I was desperate to have children, thought I might miss out. So that is obviously something that I'm still working through. I remember a journalist saying to me once, oh, your books are very...

Catholic. So I am a lapsed Catholic. So perhaps there's a lot of guilt, stuff about guilt in there. How about that? An American reader once told me that every book I write has a sultana in it. Like a raisin? Yeah. Like an actual sultana? You know, a sultana is a raisin. I did not know that. It's a big raisin though, right? No, it's a little raisin. It's a little raisin. Okay.

So for a while there, I started to put them in on purpose just for that reader, but I think I forgot with this. That's so funny. Well, I love to hear one moment. So did I. I'm so excited for everyone to read this and talk about these deeper, reflective issues that we brought up in this podcast. So we always like to end with a little bit of a speed round with our authors. And it's just a quick question. And then you say...

what you think of next. So mine is first, your favorite book as a kid. The Magic Fire Away Tree by Enid Blackson. Oh my gosh. Wasn't that Kevin Kwan's? Who else said that? Is that what Kevin Kwan said? I think so. You're the second person who has said that. Really? Yeah. Oh my God, that's so funny. Okay, your favorite Australian author. Or let me just say...

because everyone knows mine is Tim Winton. Can you pick someone, and here I'm telling you who to pick, that we might not have heard of? So your favorite Australian author that maybe we haven't heard of. Well, I really, I have no choice when I'm asked this question, but to say my two sisters. So the author. Oh, good idea. And my younger sister is also a writer and she's the author Nicola Moriarty and they are both amazing.

and I'm saying this without any bias whatsoever. Go read Jacqueline's books, whimsical and magical and hilarious. Nicola's book so she's 15 years younger than me so she's a she's cooler and grishier so sometimes I like to go when I'm out I like to see oh there's

Jackie's readers, there's my readers, there's Nicola's readers. You can see the different types of people. That is amazing. I'm definitely going to pick one of those up. My favorite Australian author that I started reading when I was there is... He wrote The Big Slap. It was the TV show. Oh, The Slap. Yes. What is this? His name is Creek. Christos. And it's embarrassing because I can't pronounce his last name. Yeah. It's Creek. Yeah.

He's such, I read one there. It's about a swimmer, a barracuda. And I thought that novel was phenomenal. Sorry. I loved the slap. I did love the slap. This is your speed round and we just stole it. We just stole it. Favorite book that you have written. So do you have a favorite of one of your own books?

No, I always feel like my favourite book is the most recent because that's when I want people, because I'm still close to the characters because I've only just finished writing it, so I'm still thinking about Cherry, who was the main character. And also because of that, my terror that I mentioned earlier about the peaking. So I want to feel that I'm going on an upward trajectory rather than.

Rather than I've got one friend who always said to me, you've never, I can't get back the magic of Three Wishes, which was my first novel 20 years ago. I want the last one to be the best. Exactly. How about auto-read authors? Who's somebody that you will always pick up and read? Other than your sisters. Of course. And Tyler is my favorite. She's the one who taught me that.

You could write about ordinary people. I'll never forget reading one of her books, The Accidental Tourist, where there was a group of siblings who were always getting lost. And I remember thinking, well, that's my sister and I. It hadn't occurred to me that I could write about something so ordinary. Yeah. She's wonderful. Yes. I mean, you're right.

There's her, there's, oh, Maggie O'Farrell, who I think she... Oh, the best. We had her on the podcast last year. We love her. Yeah. Kate Atkinson. Yep. Another great one. Jane Harper. Sally Hepworth, Jojo Moyes, Marion Keys. Yeah, a lot of female authors. Yeah, all terrific. Okay, finally, because we kind of talked Hollywood and all of your books have turned into such great shows and movies.

Who would we all see playing Cherry, the death lady? That the whole time I was reading it, I was thinking, who would play this woman? Do you have someone in your mind? No, I honestly... Don't. And I don't want to say because I feel that people would then start seeing that as they read it. I want them to see Cherry as Cherry before. Yeah, that's a good answer.

That's a good answer. I then will not say who I say. I won't either. But we will thank you so much, Leanne, for giving us your time today. Yes, thank you. It was my pleasure. It was really fun. Thank you. It was really fun. And hear one moment, you guys. Hear one moment. You will love it in bookstores everywhere. Thank you.

Hi, book lovers, Ellen Hildebrand and Tim Ehrenberg here again. Just a few closing notes before you leave. We want to thank our wonderful premier sponsors, Nantucket Book Partners, The Nantucket Hotel, Book of the Month Club, Cartelena, and Triple Eight Distillery for their generous support in the making of this show. And we also want to thank our team behind the scenes, beginning with N Magazine. We want to thank our producer, Emmy Duncan.

our technical director, Kit Noble, and our editor, Brian Murphy. We hope you'll keep tuning in for more conversations with our stellar lineup of special guests all season long. And if you're just finding us now, don't forget to go back and listen to the fabulous episodes from season one. Yes, and please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And feel free to leave us your feedback there or on Instagram at BookSpeechAndBM. See you next time. And happy reading.