40. How Does Amazon Handle Reviews?

Welcome to the Book Marketing Show Podcast, where each week we'll show you exactly how to sell more books and have fun doing it. And now, your host, Dave Cheson.

Hey guys, welcome to the Book Marketing Show podcast. I'm Dave Chesson. In today's episode, we're going to do something that we do once a month, which is called the Marketers in Coffee session. What this is, is that... I find somebody who's a big time authority on a certain subject and we kind of pretend like we're sitting down and having a cup of coffee and we're just talking about that subject.

We're usually theorizing, strategizing, or just talking about the things we've come across. The reason why I have this in the podcast is because I found that some of the best information has come. from when i've sat down and had coffee with some of the great people in marketing and books and sales so with that today's episode i'm bringing back

Craig Touch, who was on episode 36. Now, if you don't remember or if you haven't heard that, highly recommend checking it out because together him and I tackled the big question of whether or not you can give an advanced review copy. And his company, the hiddengemsbooks.com, is a service where authors can pay his company and they help them to send out advanced review copies to...

readers, and hopefully to get reviews back. They're really good at not only turning those advanced review copies into reviews, but they do it in a sound that is in line with Amazon's policies. So a guy who works solely inside of those and knows the policies and has seen where reviews get removed and when they don't would be a perfect person to bring on. For today's subject, we're going to be talking about exactly that. The thing is, how does Amazon handle reviews?

How did they remove reviews and what causes them to potentially remove reviews? And since Amazon's not very transparent with us, remember, this is two marketers sitting down and just theorizing and talking about their experiences and what they've seen and what they've done. And by the...

way there is an appeals email that we give away at the end of this conversation so be sure to wait to the end and check that out or at least come to the show notes you can find at kindlepreneur.com and with that let's go ahead and jump in on the conversation Okay, guys, I've got Craig Touchback. We had him on episode 36 where we talked about the advanced review copy rules of Amazon.

And let me tell you, there's no better person to sit down and have a pretend cup of coffee and just talk about the craziness of Amazon reviews and how Amazon handles them. Now, Craig, I'm sure you've heard a lot of authors as well as reviewers complain about why the reviews were removed or why that review stuck, but that one didn't. I'm sure you've gotten headaches over it as much as I have.

Oh my god, I hear about it almost every day. I get emails, I get Facebook messages, I get panicked notes from authors saying the sky is falling, Amazon's no longer allowing... ARC reviews or you're not allowed to say that you left an ARC review in your comment or it's all fake news. It's one thing that I think Amazon doesn't do a good job of is being very... shall we say, transparent about their review process.

we as authors get all these little tidbits and clips of information here and there. And sometimes Amazon's just talking about products, which does not affect books. I mean, back in like 2016, their vice president of... customer services, put out a memo that said, hey, we're no longer allowing advanced review copies. And then at the end of it, he said, oh, by the way, but this doesn't pertain to books. That sent the...

author world in a tizzy because either media sources were posting, you know, like, reviews are no longer allowed for advanced review copies. And they didn't put the stipulation of...

Except for books. And so a lot of authors were just flipping out on Facebook saying it's done. Oh, you're violating. And still to this day, I'll see in like a Facebook comment, somebody will be like, oh, I'm doing an advanced review copy. And somebody will be like, you can't do that anymore. Amazon said they don't allow... them anymore it's like ah no no no they do i know it's frustrating i hate to be an amazon apologist and i'm definitely not in general but i kind of get why they're so

vague in some of their rules because they don't want to be pinned into a corner where people can point to something that they wrote and say, you said this was allowed, right? And so they like it. to in the eventuality that people find their little loopholes, they want to be able to close them and not have said in the past that they were allowing them. So, I mean, I kind of get it, but it's super frustrating for everybody involved. Yeah, I totally get that.

I think the biggest frustration though comes from the inconsistency of what is allowed and what is not. Now my theory on Amazon is that... There's no real human element to whether or not reviews get pulled. I think that they have some type of algorithm or calculation where they set these parameters of, hey, if you kind of see a combination of these things, just go ahead and remove the review.

And if you see this one particular reviewer hit all of these particular flags, just go ahead and remove them completely. And so there's this inhuman process that just is like, done, ditch it, kill it, delete it, keep it. Nope. And it's not perfect. No, no, I agree. There is an algorithm. There has to be, right? I mean, you can't run a business as big as Amazon with as many reviews and customers as they have leaving them every day. Like our readers left over 50,000 reviews in the last year.

That's just from people that were reading for us. These are worldwide. They can't do it on their own. And they're the king of algorithms. They build out that in pretty much everything that they do. their rankings, everything. Everything's built on algorithms and sits on the back of their big data storage network. But I think the important thing to note is that those algorithms, they're not going to be...

They're definitely going to get false positives. But in the past, what we've seen is that when that happens, if a person... gets their reviews removed, they can appeal it. And we've seen really good results where Amazon, I think at that point, they recognize that their algorithms are flawed. They're not perfect. And so what they do is if somebody appeals it properly.

They'll have a human look into it. And then in most cases, they'll restore them. The only time I've been successful as an author, either getting a review removed or put back, in this case, it was removal. was that I got this one-star review, and it was obvious that the person hadn't read the book.

Now normally that doesn't do it for me if I try to get it removed. But what I did though was that this is back when Amazon allowed like their email address slash their website to show on their profile. I clicked on their name. as a reviewer, and I saw that the URL that they had listed for their Amazon account was something like... freebookreviews.com or something like that. It was like so obvious that this was...

Or no, I think it even said paid book reviews or whatever. But it was obvious that somebody had paid this person to go in and leave a one-star review. So I contacted Amazon and says, hey, look, you got this reviewer who... on their profile is flat out stating that they take paid reviews, I'd recommend probably shutting down that account. And sure enough, they were like...

Thanks. Although it was really just an automated response. But I did notice that two or three days later that that review is no longer there, nor was that reviewer even in existence. Was this me? I'm going to say it was just because I want to be a little proud that I... got that person. Whatever competitor totally paid for a negative review, man, karma sucks. But maybe Amazon caught on to the fact, started to see some of those parameters start to click that, hey,

This person's reviewing way too many books, way too quickly, and just shut them down. You hit on the one thing that they're very sensitive to and that they sue people about is those fake paid reviews. And so in that case, they're probably ecstatic to have somebody pointed out to them and they didn't notice it themselves. It's really hard. I've seen people get bad reviews that are not obviously paid for, but just...

Clearly, this person has a chip on their shoulder about something, and it didn't read the book. In some cases, they even state, I didn't read this book. This looks like something I would hate, and it's garbage and one star. They'll report it, and they'll have their friends report it, and Amazon will ignore it, right? Yes. If you can say, hey, look, this is a paid review, then they're all over that.

Right. And another time I was able to look and specifically show that this reviewer had left these reviews for this one book and they were all five stars, but then they had... left reviews for my competitors and myself, and they're all one stars. I was like, is this person really buying 30 books on this? one particular subject, but that one I didn't get a response to. But it was pretty obvious that this, again, was a competitor who was paying for positive reviews and paying for negative reviews.

But this brings up a really good question and kind of a good coffee topic. What are some of the things you think, and again, Amazon's not transparent, so we don't fully know, that would warrant their so-called algorithm to remove reviews? To tell you the truth, before we jump in this, there are five rules that we do have, and I'll just list them quickly for us so we don't hash out that. Number one is you can't review your own book or a competitor's. They state this on their FAQ.

The big question is, so what's a competitor, right? And I think that leads into our next conversation. Number two, you can review another author's book. So long as Amazon, I guess, doesn't think it's a competitor's, right? So just because you're an author does not mean you can't review other authors' books. I think that's number five. But number three, you cannot swap reviews.

That kind of lends itself into the incentivization, right? Hey, I left a review for you, so go ahead and leave a review for me. No bueno. Number four, you cannot have family or close friends leave a review. Now, one big thing, and this lends into number five, is that you can take reviews from family or friends or whatever or paid reviews.

and put them in your editorial section. And that leads into number five, which is you can pay for editorial reviews, which are professional reviews where you have to pay a company to go look at your book and then write something about it. That's okay with them. They just can't leave it as an Amazon review. But you can take the review and put it in your editorial section. So these are five of the rules that Amazon is very clear.

If our theory is that Amazon has this calculation that kind of goes through and scrubs and figures out what that is, what are some of the things you think trigger that so-called decision and cause reviews to go away? It's hard because there's so many things that... probably trigger it in combination with each other, with a little bit of special sauce that they've added in. One of the ones I see speculated the most.

Well, actually, there's a few that I see speculated the most. Some of them I give no credence to. But one of them that I see speculated is the Facebook link, right? So if you're an author and you have an author page and people are fans of your page, that's fine. If you don't have an author page and you just have a personal page, then people have to be friends with you. Now, if they're friends with you, that means they shouldn't be writing a review. Right. It does that.

Just because I have 20,000 friends that like my book, does that mean we're friends when we go out for coffee? Of course not. But if that's true, if they're really looking at that, then that's, I guess, the argument that authors should always have an author page separate from there. personal page that's actually following facebook's rules if you have a pen name you shouldn't be setting up a personal page as that pen name because they're not a real person but you're allowed to set up

a fan page. So that's one of the ones I see speculated the most. I have no idea if it's true. It seems like, I mean, it could be, but I don't know. It kind of lends into that example of there's certain thresholds, right? For example, if Amazon, and again, this is my thought, is that if Amazon sees that the link is coming from Facebook, there's just like a little percentage of potential banning that happens, right? Because somehow you've connected with that person and you've sent them.

there. Do I think it's a big percentage? I think it's no, it's probably minimal. But where you start to run into times where maybe that percentage is larger. When I say percentage, percentage towards the chance that they'll remove your review, okay? I think that it's larger when, for example, the reviewer...

connects their Facebook page with their Amazon account. All right. So they list that their social media on there and they have to actually go in there and do it. There's a process to do it, but they can. Maybe, this is big quotes, maybe, maybe Amazon can look to see who are your friends or listed relatives, right? Because they could see that, hey, this person who's connected and this person who's connected, they're friends, they have relatives.

I think we're getting more into the whole, I give Amazon way too much credit and thinking that they're going into Facebook and doing this. But again, that's one of those theories that are out there and it could potentially increase the chances of review removal.

I think some people would argue that the opposite, that that proves that we're being watched too much and all these companies are in cahoots and sharing data and we have no privacy. There's two things here, right? One of the things that I've seen is that people actually get a message that they can't leave a review or that their review was blocked after they post it and it goes through some sort of review process.

And the reason for that blocking was some sort of message that said, you're friends with this person somehow or whatever. And people have sent me that. said, I don't understand this. I don't know who that person is. I think in that case, maybe there's that social media connection. Whether they then apply that to the overall algorithmic sweeps that they do.

I don't know. What really makes it difficult is in the last few months, they've done two or three sweeps, right? And a couple of them have hit our reviewers. And the reason why it's really hard to determine... anything really, is that they don't remove the one review that they detected had a problem. They remove all reviews by that person, including every review they've ever left for

products they've purchased, non-books, books, whatever. So when somebody's reviews get removed, and I'll hear about it from either the author or who just lost a couple of reviews from their book or the reader who all of a sudden can't. leave reviews is they'll say every review they've left is gone. And so we don't know if it was because they did something wrong when they left a review for one of our books, or if something that they did when they left a review for something completely different.

So it's hard to say what the problem is because they blow it all away. This goes back to what I was saying earlier is that they do typically... When this is appealed, pretty much 99% of the time, they will restore those ones. If the person legit says, I'm a real person, I left real reviews. And they send it to the actual appeals address. Now, a lot of people don't realize this, but Amazon has a specific...

email address that is used to appeal review issues like this. And if you appeal to that address, from what I've seen, 99% of the time, they restore everything. And now I assume that that's from... people that appealed that were not doing anything wrong. If you were doing something wrong, then yeah, your appeal probably won't go through. But what happens is I think they recognize their algorithm is flawed in some ways. And so they have a human actually look at it and then they say, okay, well.

This person seems legit. And I think one of the things maybe that triggers it is quantity of reviews, right? Some people read a lot of books and that's okay, but they're getting a lot. They're reading a lot of books. They're not.

buying them so they're free books. All these things are allowed, right? But I guess if they get to a certain level, maybe that's what triggers the threshold of the algorithm to knock them down. And then when the human looks at it, he might read some of the reviews and be like, okay, well, it's clear that this person...

reviewed the book because i can tell by reading the review they wrote about the book if the person was writing a bunch of it's great loved it kind of reviews then maybe they wouldn't and they're all five star then yeah maybe those people wouldn't get restored but i think in general the people that are going to take the time to appeal are doing it because they know they weren't doing anything wrong and i think in those cases amazon generally agrees with it

I think that's a really good point with the frequency of reviews. I think that's a major indicator as to whether or not a review will get moved. If this person has left five or six book reviews and they're I have to think that that tips the scale and immediately requires either removal as a reviewer or removal of reviews or even... potentially human check on that. So I think that's a really big one. And I think that's safe to assume that that is the case. If I were Amazon, I would totally...

create that easy quantifiable check. And that would probably remove all the Fiverr reviewers and all the paid reviewers as well. Yeah, except that they added a restriction. You're only allowed something like five or seven reviews per week. that are unpurchased products. So a person can't leave anymore 10 or 20 reviews. So we used to send out books to reviewers more frequently than we do now. In some of the cases, I contact the reviewers and I'm like,

are you a speed reader? What's going on here? And they'll tell me. And a lot of times they'll tell me their whole life story and they love to read and that's all they do. And they sit at home and they have no job and they just read and they can't afford to buy these books. So they love programs like mine where they can get.

the books that they want and they can read them. And I think that it's unfortunate that we've come to a point where Amazon has to impose a lot of these restrictions. And I get why they have, but it has affected people negatively that. legitimately can't afford to support the habit that they, I mean, they can go to a library, sure. But some of these people are like homebound. They're not that mobile. And the only thing they have in their lives is reading books.

I actually understand that. I'm a book listener, not a book reader per se, but I listen to books like crazy. Another belief that I have, and I can't prove for sure, but I think that this also gives credence to an increase in the chance of a review removal. is the type of link that you use when you try to get people to click on it. So for example, there are a lot of authors that will publish their book and they'll send out an email to their email list. And the link that they copied from Amazon...

might actually affect whether or not a review is removed. You see, there's this strategy called the Amazon Super URLs. And it was a while ago that authors thought that if they go to Amazon.com and they type in the target keyword that they want to rank for, okay?

then they find their book and they click on it. If you look at the Amazon URL, the full link that shows up, it'll say something like keyword equals, say it's stop smoking, it'd be stop-smoking. And what they believed was that if somebody clicks the link, just created. Then in Amazon eyes, that person didn't click a link. What they did was they went to Amazon, they typed in that keyword, and then they clicked on his book, and then they bought it, which as my listeners know, that's one of the...

Best ways to rank faster for a keyword is if people naturally type it into Amazon, find your book, click it and purchase it under that keyword. However, though, number one. creating that type of link and getting people to click it and make amazon think that they did that that is incorrect that definitely does not work and that does not help so all those listening thinking oh sweet what a great link let me do that no it doesn't work but

it does increase the chances that your review will be moved. And my belief is two things. Number one, inside that so-called link, that super URL, there is a checksum. Okay, where it's a number system that it says, hey, this book at this time was on the second page ranking number four. Well, if that person clicks like a couple days later, you're probably not on that page. So A, it knows that this link is older.

But the number two and the biggest one is the QID. The QID is inside that link. And it is the number of seconds since I believe 1970 or 1980. My memory is a little fuzzy. But it's a timestamp. That basically says that this link was created at this certain time and we have a checksum to prove it.

Therefore, we know full well that this link wasn't initially created. So this person didn't type it in, didn't do it, and then didn't click it. And I think that that timestamp, if they see that on this specific timestamp, there is a huge amount of people that are clicking, purchasing the book.

and leaving reviews that's indicative that this was influenced. Now, do I think that that's automatic removal? No, but I think that that type of link does increase the chances of whether or not the reviews are deemed less likely to stay i hadn't heard that But that sounds like something that Amazon would do. I mean, that's making sure that the integrity of all that stuff is sound is, I mean, they've got...

an army of people thinking about that and working on that. So I would totally buy that. And even if it's absolutely wrong, I still recommend to every author to always just create the bear. URL link. And the bare URL link is amazon.com forward slash. I think it's like C forward slash. And then it's the ASIN number. Just take that. Okay. So if you had to go find the link for your book.

and you type in a keyword and you find it, say it's just your name or whatever, then just copy all the way to the end of the ASIN number. And now you know for sure that that link isn't trackable. It isn't timestamped. And that anybody who clicks your link in your email will not be tagged.

as somebody who was initiated from your search. So it's just a safer method. So even if I'm wrong, just do it that way to be sure. Yeah, no, I think that's good advice. We provide that sort of link as well. If they use our reader forms to click through to leave the reviews, then that's the sort of thing we do. I think it's like amazon.com. What is it, DP or something, or GP? DP, yeah, I think you're right. DP, yeah.

Well, this is one of the ones that I always get questioned about is, well, how do they know if they're a close friend or family? And we talked a little bit about social media and whether or not their account is connected or whether or not the link is coming from Facebook. But I think another way of whether or not...

they can see for family, is whether or not your Amazon account has an address, either a previous address or whatever, that somebody else has. So say, for example, we both lived at 123 Cardiff Lane.

And that was like an old address and you happen to live there now. I think that Amazon would just see that, hey, these two people lived at the same place at one point. It's probably safe to say they're family or close friends. Remove it. Yep. They could be doing that. They could be looking at your IP address as well.

That too. Yeah, IP address could definitely play into that. Another thing too is, let's face it, if you're using the same credit card, regardless of whether or not they're on two different accounts, that's probably an automatic trigger that you are close friends or family. Yeah. Or someone stole it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's hope not, you know, but, and then stole your card and then left the review on your book. And then left the review. Yeah. It seems. Oh man. But.

What are other things that you think trigger this potential increase in whether or not a review is removed? One of the ones that people message me about or complain about is the idea that... We tell our reviewers to disclose that they're leaving a voluntary review on a free book that they got. And so often hear the argument that that is something that Amazon is targeting. I don't think that's at all true.

If that was true, all of our reviews would have been removed a long time ago because most of them have that. I mean, not everyone follows that guideline. It's something we suggest, and it's still, as far as I know, last I checked, one of Amazon's rules that you disclose that. But even if it isn't, it's an FTC rule.

The FTC actually has in their guidelines that if you receive a free product, you have to disclose it when you're leaving an online review. So even if Amazon took it out of their rules, they don't trump the FTC as far as I know. I always suggest to reviewers to put that in, and I do not think that it has any bearing. Maybe they use it as part of their secret sauce, but all of the ones that got tagged...

in the rounds from us that were reviewers from us, almost all of them, except for one that I know of that appealed, got completely restored. And they all had that line in there. So if that line was the problem, they wouldn't have been restored. So I'm sure.

Mine is not the problem. Or the fact that there are people who will flat out say that I've never used this product or I never read this book, but here's my thoughts on it. And yet that review sticks. I think that there's no automatic removal system. for that. But if ever a human from Amazon is to look at it, I think then they might say, okay, well, obviously this isn't within the intentions of review. And I don't remember the exact words, but Amazon's review policy does state...

that it should be a fair analysis and proof of use. There's something about it that almost says, like, you can't leave a review and say, I don't know anything about this, but I'm leaving a review. That is completely against the intention of the review. I think I read recently, actually, that they search for is if all your reviews are pretty much the same, then they're going to think.

Those are fake, right? If every review, it doesn't matter if it's for books or anything else, but if somebody left 10 reviews and they're all like, loved it, great book. And that was it. You know, that's likely they're going to get reviewed. And that doesn't even mean that those are fake reviews. It could just be a really, really uncreative.

lazy reviewer who read all the books but just really didn't feel like writing anything more than that and figured their star rating was good enough to some authors it is good enough but i think amazon would still they might target that sort of thing and think that that flags must fake. We definitely know that Amazon is indexing the words that you use in a review. If you go to Amazon.com and you click on like a book and then you scroll down, just...

Above where the reviews are, they now start to show common words that they see that are genre specific that reviewers are using when talking about the book. So we know that their algorithm is actually looking through the reviews and seeing what words you use. So I think that that's definitely part of the case as to whether or not reviews are removed is if they see you continuously use the same verbiage over.

and over again. This book is great. I liked it a lot. Negatory. It's like a review cloud, a personal review cloud. Yeah, they definitely are searching that. They're the king of algorithms and machine learning. The article in the Washington Post had a quote from them.

That's specifically said that uses artificial intelligence to analyze hundreds of thousands of Amazon customers who have been banned from leaving reviews and use the data collected to build computer models of their behavior to predict future techniques. Okay, so in that case, actually, that one is specifically talking about how they're using those algorithms to determine people that they think are also bad. And then I imagine at that point, they are then applying.

an algorithm to look at the actual reviews that they've left to determine. So the first algorithm, this one is saying that they're determining people that are similar to bad people. Right. And they can't just say, OK, you're similar, so we're banning you. So at that point, they've got to also be applying some sort of algorithm to check to see if they're also bad.

They're actually now even saying that they're using these artificial intelligence algorithms to do all this work. I mean, it's not even speculation anymore, right? They're flat out saying it. That's a really, really good point to bring up. And I think the big thing that we're looking at is Amazon has a system that automatically removes.

It's not human. There are certain things, and they got to be quantifiable things, not qualitative things, but quantifiable things that will trigger this removal. Now, we as authors have a small chance of being able to... get back reviews or remove reviews. However, though, if we are reviewers, okay, and we lose our review, we can call Amazon to basically say, hey, seriously, guys, what gives? Give me back my account.

Is there anything else you want to add before we close out? It's not a phone call. It's an email address. And it's posted on one of their many, many guideline pages or whatever. So it's hard to find. But it's review-appeals at amazon.com. There's probably specific ones for every country, but I know for the UK, at least, it's the same thing, but amazon.co.uk instead of amazon.com. So review-appeals. As a reader, if you find that your reviews have been removed...

and you know that you did nothing wrong. Honestly, 95 to 99% of the time that we've directed people to sending an email to that and they told us that they did it. Within about three days, everything was restored. And in fact, in a few of those cases, Amazon apologized for removing them in the first place. All right, guys, there you have it. This thing can be...

mind-boggling and it can be frustrating. But at the end of the day, you have to look at and understand Amazon is a gigantic corporation. So they have these little triggers. But luckily, there are some appeal processes that we can definitely take. part in but keep in mind some of the things that we covered in today's discussion make sure that you're not increasing the chances that either your reviews or your readers reviews will get removed hey Craig thank you so much for coming on the show

Oh, thanks so much for having me. And anytime I'm at your disposal. All right, guys. So from this conversation, I hope you have a better understanding of how Amazon operates with reviews, what causes them to potentially remove them, and ways that we can reduce the risk of reviews being removed. First and foremost, Amazon has an automatic system that goes through and looks at previous actions of illegal reviewers, and it uses that to figure out the potential of a review being illegal.

So what are some of these things that we found? Well, first off, frequency of reviews is big. Now, as Craig pointed out, which I did not know, you only have five to seven reviews per week that you can do. This is because Amazon saw like a whole bunch of these Fiverr reviewers, you know, pay me five bucks and I'll leave a review. And they were leaving like 10 reviews a day. It's impossible for anybody to read 10 books a day and leave reviews. Although I'm sure some of my listeners are saying,

Challenge accepted. But we all know that there's a much higher chance this is a fake review site or a paid review site if they're doing that. And Amazon now takes that into account. But there are some that aren't so clear cut. Like, for example... how much does Amazon follow whether or not it was a Facebook link? I think that it does increase the chances of it being an illegal review if it is coming from a social media link.

But we're not sure. The other thing too is if the person has their social media account linked to their Amazon page, that might also increase the chances of Amazon knowing that this is a friend or a close friend and such. But we're not really sure.

There are also some other things that would make absolute sense if they took an account. Like, for example, if you, the book writer and the reviewer have the same address or at any point had the same address or IP, probably a friend or family member, right? Another thing is whether or not you're using the same credit card. That's probably obvious unless somebody stole your credit card and is then deciding to find your book and leave a review. Probably not. And finally, the links that you use.

Again, not a proven fact, but I'm a strong believer that make sure that you don't use those super URLs. Make sure that you're using a bare URL. And in the show notes, I'll have a link to an article where I actually wrote explaining more in depth what super URLs are, how to identify them, and how to make sure you have clean links. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Amazon doesn't.

But there's enough to make me feel like Amazon is tracking the links and their use. And more importantly, it's just best to be sure you're using the right link so that in case I am right, it doesn't affect your review process. Now, there may be a lot of other things that are out there, but these are some of the common things that two authorities in reviews have seen.

But if you know of others or you think we missed something, be sure to comment in the show notes so that other listeners can learn from your experience as well. So with that, I'm Dave Chesson of the Book Marketing Show Podcast, signing off. Cheers.