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Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems, including the failed War on drugs that has criminalized addiction, fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities. By thirty five, Kelly Lingard was an executive with a fortune twenty it company.
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I know it's crazy this morning, it's very ominous.
We're back testing testing.
That sounds good.
To the roof.
I think we're good.
What time do you have to be there?
According to the website, they say that start checking you in it?
Eight fifteen.
Okay, So a few weeks ago, Kelsey and I flew down to Florida. We met Judge Scott Cupp in a parking lot of a public supermarket. Turns out Judge Cupp had something he really wanted to talk to Leo about in person. When we first found out that he had arranged a visit with Leo and why, it just felt like we should be there too. So we decided to make the drive with him through the dense morning fog of Bone Valley to Hardy Correctional Institution.
I don't know, I don't know how I feel.
Yeah, I was gonna say, what are your expectations, Chris?
That's why I want to spend a lot of time.
I haven't seen him in eight years.
More than a decade ago. Scott Cup was Leo's defense lawyer. At that time. Cup would occasionally make the drive to Hardy to speak with Leo. It began as routine attorney visits, but eventually it got to the point that Kup would make the drive to Hardy even when he didn't have any updates on Leo's case. He just go to talk to Leo. Officially he was going in as a lawyer, but really he was visiting as a friend. But in twenty fourteen, Cupp was appointed to the bench by Florida
Governor Rick Scott. An appointment like that is a tremendous honor, the opportunity of a lifetime, really, but Cupp also knew that taking the bench would mean that he'd no longer be able to represent Leo, and as a judge if he continued to visit an inmate, that would raise eyebrows within the legal community.
That was the last time I was going to ask him that, because I know I went to see him right after I found out I was gonna take the bench. I saw him before that to kind of get his blessing, and typical Leo, he just chewed my ass.
When you say, uh, he.
Chuged your ass like this call is from a correction facility and his subject to monitoring and recording. I asked Leo about that last conversation they had eight years ago. The last time Leo had seen his former defense attorney, his close friend, he was.
He was telling me that, you know, the governor was appointing him to the bench and that would mean, you know, certain things for us. The biggest thing was that he would no longer be able to represent me, and he didn't want to make that decision by himself. And I was blown away that he was, you know, giving me
the opportunity to sound up on it. And I told him then, I said, Scott said, I cannot allow any more sacrifice to this case, you know, and I'm definitely not going to ask you to sacrifice your career for it. And we were in tears, and he had said then he said, I knew you were going to say something. I told him, said, I am super proud of you that there was absolutely nothing to discuss in this will you will take that appointment and you will go out
and be the best damn judge that they have. But you know, that was my comfort in knowing that I know somebody, I personally know somebody that works in the judicial system that is upright, has integrity, is honest, and is doing the right thing. That's who you want in those positions. That's who we need protecting society.
Typical Leo, he just doesn't think of himself first. That's what's got him through this. He thinks of everybody else and those aren't just words. That's where he lives.
So with Leo's blessing, Scott Cupp became Judge Scott Cupp in twenty fourteen.
Taking the bench. That was difficult because I knew at that point I'm done. I can't do anything to help him. But again I was wrong about that because then I met you.
Since that day in twenty fourteen, Judge Cup hasn't seen Leo and it hasn't been easy. He says, it felt like he was abandoning him.
We stay in touch sporadically, you know, it's kind of like a distant relative, you know, cards at the holidays. But you know, now with what I've decided to do, it's it's time for me to go see him.
So the three of us pile in the car and start heading to Hardy. The expected drive time is one hour and twenty six minutes.
Do you really name that?
Really?
I don't think so.
Yeah, it's a thirty one.
Yeah, yeah, it's thirty one, sixty four seventeen.
All right, I get there, bangs Sitting Judges aren't prohibited from visiting prison inmates in Florida, but it's unusual. Judge Cup has sentenced defendants who are now serving time at Hardy, and as an assistant state attorney, he'd prosecuted.
Men who have ended up in this prison.
So he's a little wary of being recognized during his visit with Leo. And this time he won't be off in a private attorney room. He'll be sitting in the visitation room with all the other friends and family visiting their incarcerated loved ones.
So, Scott, you said you've only ever been in a prison for an attorney visit.
Yep, yeah, never been in as a private citizen.
How are you feeling about that?
Wow? I don't know. I really don't know.
I've been thinking about it obviously a lot, just a lot of mixed feelings. I'm looking forward to seeing him. It makes me sad to see him still like this. It should be just two guys getting together chatting, right, and it's one guy and any other guy's a prisoner. Yeah, yeah, I almost was thinking about but then that would be like really admitting that I'm old, and see now I was gonna put on a piece of little piece of paper,
just a little bull of points. I remember to ask him about the remember to talk about that, Remember to talk about this. But then I went, now, you can't do that.
That's what I do when I go there.
I mean, I don't have to make notes about the the main reason I'm seeing them. It's just all these other things, you know, these random things. And I remember to tell him about this, Remember to tell him about that, ask him about this.
You want to you want to run through your list with this kind of commit it to memory.
Tell us what world.
It's just a bunch of random stuff. One of the things I definitely want to talk.
To him about is the drawing he made for me.
Yeah, can you can you talk about that drawing?
Chrissy?
I think she sent me a the text picture of this drawing that she said Leo had done in prison. And it's of a lion and it's black. I don't know if it's charcoal or a pencil or whatever it is, but anyhow, it's just it was just really fantastic. And she said that Leo had done it, and I just said, if he ever does any more, tell him, you know,
I would really be interested in purchasing one. And several weeks later I had been out of the office in the morning, I think I came back and here's this framed picture, the drawing of the lion, and it was laying on my credenza writing in my chambers and Chrissy had apparently dropped it off with a letter accompanying it from Leo, and I was just I had to close my tour, you know, pull myself back together. It was it's unbelievable. And then a letter that went with it.
It was unsigned, and that, you know, it said at the end one day that you know, when we can get together, then.
He'll sign it.
Leo did a drawing for me too. It's a lighthouse looking out over a rocky shore.
And rough water.
I keep it framed in my office when I'm sitting at my desk, it's always in view.
I must have been him nervous, right, Yeah, I don't know why.
It's just kind of I don't know, this is like a kick off again, a lot of changes coming.
Yeah, but he's worth it A question about it.
So we're basically here, this.
Baby, so that means as a mama.
Someone seems like less cars than usual.
Look good, only a few minutes after nine. Hopefully there's not really a line.
My usual spot. Wow, Wow, what do we do now?
Just take a walk up to the Hearty c I main unit. So you just want to bring your driver's license?
Yeah?
I got my driver's license and twenty buckers. You do it? You love everybody?
Yeah, Kelsey and I watch as Judge Cup walks toward the entrance. He's dressed casually, jeans and a sweatshirt.
Oh h less related works.
You could see Leo.
I know.
It sucks being here and now I wh I's so close.
I know it's really really hard thinking about this. It's been over a year since I last saw Leo. That was when I went to see his band The Watchers play in that concert. That was a really special visit because instead of just sitting in a small room together, Leo was able to give me a tour of the
war room where he prayed for Jeremy Scott. Apparently, as a member of the media, I shouldn't have been permitted to do that visit, and even though I'd been approved, I'm now under review with the Florida Department of Corrections. So for now, Kelsey and I aren't allowed to visit with Leo. Visiting hours at Hardy run from nine am to three pm, and Judge Cupp was planning on spending that whole time with Leo. So Kelsey and I walked back to the car.
Anything you want to say about this experience? Droppings got off about today?
WHOA what the fuck is?
Those things are about fifty yards away and they're that.
Loud, big big cranes, the ones with the red heads. I don't know which. I don't know what those ones are called? All right, Oh my gosh, I bet I wonder if they're like having their moment in there right now. I don't know. Okay, let's go. That's is all, okay.
We had a few hours to kill, so we drove around Bone Valley, grabbed lunch, and headed back to Hardy to pick up Judge Cup. We were standing in front of the main gate, looking toward the visitor pavilion. We watched as other inmates visited with their loved ones. One family was playing a game of cornhole. A couple affectionately wrapped their arms around each other. Two young kids ran through the pavilion, darting around tables and chasing each other laughing.
These moments felt so intimate, like something we shouldn't be watching. But there we were on the outside, seeing it all through multiple layers of chain link fence and barbed wire.
So we were hoping maybe Leo can find someplace to wave to us, but.
Yeah, I don't know either.
While we were standing there, a prison official approached us.
Hello, where does your bag a friend to visit?
I have a question for you, pavilion.
It is it is we have an inmate that one of our friends is going into, saying, we were just wondering if we could wave to them, but we don't think that's possible.
I know who you guys are you do I do?
Ye?
You're here?
You know that I watched the twenty twenty in the podcast?
Oh yeah, okay, yeah, what do you think I can?
Yeah?
She asked us to turn off the tape recorder. That's when she told us that she's known Leo for years and she thinks he's innocent. It doesn't belong in prison.
Oh, here comes Scott. He's just coming out from his visit with Leo. We were able to wave at Leo, and we saw Scott and Leo put their arms around each other and hug and it was just really beautiful to be able to witness that. Okay, let's see hi, I'm here with my microphone to put in your face.
Starting to get used to it. Yeah, he I'm glad.
I'm glad I made the decision that I'm making.
I don't know, it's kind of let's walk back, ok.
Yeah, we were just picking him up.
We'll leave.
I'm so sorry. Thank you.
Once we got in the car, our ride back was mostly quiet. It was clear to us the judge Cup needed some time to process.
It was pretty intense, it was pretty overwhelming. It was really nice to reconnect and just and I told him, I said, I just I think he wanted to too. I just wanted to talk about whatever whatever came up, and not anything too heavy. And then it just kind of Then it got a little more intense when I told him what I was going to do and that I'm planning to step off the bench effect at March first and go back to being his lawyer.
So this is happening.
Listen, that's a pretty big statement. And as a friend, a close family friend, that's a weighty proposition for me.
I talked to Leo after the visit to ask him how he felt about Judge Cupp's intention to leave the bench and represent him again alongside his other lawyers.
I mean, I know a lot about Scott's background and long he's been an attorney. How long you worked as a prosecutor, how long he worked as a defense attorney for me, and you know, and then worked his way to the bench, you know what I mean. And I gotta i gotta think that's kind of been an aspiration
of his, you know, for a long time. When he had asked to become my lawyer again, I'm like, you know, my biggest concern that I had was that, you know, this was not something he was doing because he felt obligated and he felt responsible, or because Scott is not the reason why I'm in prison. So I didn't want Scott thinking that, you know, he had to do this for me, because he doesn't owe me anything. Friends don't
owe friends. And we talked a little bit more, and then he said, I noticed you didn't answer me, So is that a yes sport or what I'm looking at him? He said, And I'm like, you know what he said, you're gonna let me in. I said, Scott, I never let you out, you know, so I mean not hard for me to let you in. And and I said, I just wanted to make sure that this is something that you actually wanted to do. And he said, I don't want to do this. I need to do this, and he emphasized the need.
I just told, you know, can't never, can't ever let it go. I guess I put him in a position that if he protested too much, it's like, Okay, well, I guess you'll have to find another lawyer. Yeah, I'm going to be devoting all my energy being singlely focused on making sure he's out.
By the end of the visit, he was saying, I need you to, you know, keep your head above water and everything. I said, I'm good. My superheroes back.
You know.
I had this analogy and my boat is going down. I'm thinking that the state has has torpedoed it, and I'm going down, and Scott was always the one bailing the water with me. I mean, you know, Scott's in that boat with me, and he's feeling the emotion of it. And that was always important to me. It was it was was the one thing that allowed me to get emotional thinking about it. It allowed me to look for another day to fight. I wouldn't even know what it
would be when the boat's going down. No one knows what the next step is going to be, just going down. But I know that as long as I had Scott with me, we'll find another door, We'll find another way to get the boat above water. And you know, that's just the kind of guy that Scott really is.
Leo brings up this boat analogy all the time. He says, Judge Cupp is in the boat with him, helping him bail water from the sinking ship. Leo tells me that I can't be in the boat. It's a legal fight, and what I'm doing telling his story is a different kind of thing. He says he can't have me in the boat going down with him. He says he needs me to be the lighthouse guiding the boat to safety. Judge Cup could stay on the bench for many more years,
and that's usually what judges do. They often devote their whole careers to trying to get and keep their seat on the bench. But he's letting it all go to get back in the boat.
With Leo.
Judge Cup's letter is short and to the point. It reads, Dear Governor DeSantis, please accept this as my letter of resignation. My last day will be March first, twenty twenty three. I have enjoyed and am grateful for my time spent on the bench in the twentieth Circuit. I look forward to the opportunities and challenges of returning to private practice. Sincerely, Scott H. Cup, Circuit.
Judge, you have one minute remaining.
Well listen. I just want to tell you, just standing outside the prison and seeing you through that fence was a really bittersweet for both Kelsey and I. It was just really hard to just wave to you and not be able to come over to you.
Yeah. Absolutely, but I think you.
Know, okay, I think we knew where our heart's were at that moment, yelling.
Across our hearts will want as they will continue to be.
I love you, Bud, Thank you too much.
Okay, Buddy, thank you for calling. We'll talk sooner, sir, anytime.
Buddy.
Good night, you too, man.
Thanks bye.
Many of you have been reaching out to me asking what you can do to help Leo. Right now, the best thing to do is to sign the petition that's been set up by the Innocence Project of Florida to have Leo's case transferred to a different circuit for an independent review. You can find the change dot org petition in our show notes. Follow the Bone Valley podcast for updates.