Hello, y'all.
I'm Maggie Freeling, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and the host of Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling, And this is a bonus episode of Bone Valley. So I'm here with Gilbert King and Kelsey Decker and I'm going to ask them some of my questions, some of your questions all about the behind the scenes of Bone Valley. So, Gilbert and Kelsey.
Hello, Hey, Maggie, how you doing.
I'm good. How are y'all good?
Really good?
So one of my first questions is, as someone who has done projects like this, it takes a lot of time. But you guys started working on this quite a while ago. So can you tell me when you started working on this how much time you spent in Florida?
What was that like?
Yeah, I'll say it took us over four years to do this. So you know, obviously we worked through COVID and so that that sort of slowed us down. There were a few things that slowed us down. We were trying to reach Jeremy Scott and he was constantly being put in disciplinary confinement, and then with COVID, so there we were a lot of waiting around as well. But I would say we kept ourselves pretty busy with this.
We had the extra time. We were a lot of waiting, so we just tried to do more and more research and just keep digging. And so that was our experience. Why it took so long.
Right, and because I remember at one point you said like, oh, this is a letter, you know, from our first letter to Jeremy, and like, what was it twenty nineteen you wrote him or twenty eighteen.
Yeah, I think it was like I think the first time we wrote him was like early twenty twenty, like during the pandemic, and he didn't respond for seven months, and I think we sent out a bunch of letters finally just started writing back to us.
So and you guys moved to Florida.
Go ahead, Calsey, you can tell about the big movie with your pickup truck.
Yeah, yeah, I mean we moved to Florida for about three months. So it was the summer of twenty nineteen. Yeah, I have, yeah, summer of twenty nineteen, so we were there for a few months. We are kind of like home base. There was Saint Petersburg. We weren't entirely sure. We wanted to spend all of our time in like, but we were making the drive back and forth quite
a bit. But yeah, it was it was an interesting start to like the real reporting in the case, just you know, being down there in the midst of it.
So it's kind of important to do that, you know, when I did my podcast Murder and Alliance, which was investigating a wrongful conviction. I pretty much lived in Ohio for a good year. Did locals know you guys?
Like, what was that?
Like?
Yeah, we would run into the same people our home base a lot of times. We would drive It was about forty five minutes from Saint Pete to Lakeland, and our home base became the Lakeland Public Library, and they actually gave us a room in there that we would use for interviews. So it worked out really well. And there's also some a lot of research to do in Lakeland from you know, historical research that was right in
the library. But I remember that as just being a lot of fun and every morning, like just getting up and you know, drinking coffee on the way, going across the Skyway bridge and just driving to Lakeland and just like doing prep in the car for the interview is that we have to do that day and I just it was really a fun like commute to actually have to do that, and I think, yeah, we started running
into a lot of people that we'd known. There was one point, I don't know if you remember this Kelsey, where I was kind of not paying attention and I almost ran over a guy around one of those lakes, and he was like, I just spoke. I did a talk down there, some legal talk, and we made eye contact and I knew I know him, and I sent him a little quick email. I said, hey, sorry, I think I just tried to run you over, and he was like, I knew that was you.
Don't worry about it.
So listeners do want to know, though, if Gilbert, your familiarity with Florida from your other book, Devil and the Grove, if.
Any of those connections helped you with this case.
Yeah, I would. I would definitely say they did. You know, there's a lot of people like I did two books down there, so I've spent about fifteen years down there in this part of central Florida, and so.
A lot of people know me.
And I think there's like a benefit to having some connections, Like you know, sometimes we'll be writing something and trying to figure out something in terms of like a Supreme Court Florida's Supreme Court decision, and I'm not really entirely sure what the you know, what to make of the decision, And like there are I'm friendly with some of the Florida Supreme Court justices, so I can actually call them up and say, hey, can you explain your opinion in
that particular case. And so there's a lot of that local stuff that I think really paid off. And same with just having going down there and speaking all the time, I run into a lot of people that I know, and they seem more eager to help me.
I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely So Kelsey, this was all really new to you. You were pretty much just out of college and now you're eyeballs deep in a really crazy wrongful conviction case, murder case, another murder case.
What was all this like for you?
You know, I just kind of had to take it a day at a time sometimes because yeah, every phase of this project was something just entirely new for me.
But you know, having having Gilbert there there was always support. Yeah, he was my cheerleader every step of the way. So yeah, I mean it was an amazing experience. Like first job. I think this is you know, maybe kind of a dream job for a lot of people, and here I am, like right out of college, just diving right into it. So I felt very lucky in a lot of ways. But there were definitely moments where I felt I was in a little over my head having to kind of
learn some of the stuff as I went along. But here I am, I made it, and I am, you know, really happy I've been able to see it through to the end. And yeah, I mean I just care so much about the story. It was something I just you know, was very motivated to continue learning and committing to and putting everything I could into it.
So how did your relationship the two of you? How did it change over the course of four years? I mean that's a long time. And Kelsey, again, like you were very new, so I'm sure by the end you were a rock star investigator.
But so how did it all change?
Yeah?
Well, I think, you know, part of the thing with this is like I have a lot of researchers and they're based in New York, and they're actually guys who are older than me, and like it just for them to just upend themselves and move down to Florida was just not going to happen for them. You know, they had families, they have commitments, and and so you really need somebody who has the flexibility to do something like this, and so I think Kelsey came in as a researcher.
Basically I had a couple different projects going, and I remember specifically I was trying to decide, like there was a TV thing, a new book, and I was trying to prioritize, and then Leo's case came across my desk and Kelsey started looking into it, and I remember there was a moment I said, well, Kelsey, like what what do you think I should prioritize what project? And I remember her specifically saying like, well, it looks like there's
an innocent man in prison that one. And it just like this moment of clarity, like yeah, of course we have to do that one. And so that was really
an inspiration to get going. And you know, Kelsey started as a researcher, but because like we decided to pivot to a podcast while we were down there, you know, she had to learn all the audio recording and sort of was all self taught, and so like she's moving through this going from researcher to you know, audio recordists to producer and all these different skills that she had to learn for this job. So I really need somebody flexible in, somebody who's not afraid of learning.
And she was it.
Wow, would you agree with all that, Kelsey?
I guess, so yeah, I didn't have much to lose with upending my entire life and going down to Florida and learning everything on the job.
Well, were you nervous like to go down just like you and Gilbert that he's a terrifying human, but like you know, I'm you didn't know him that well, Like, was that weird to start off, just like the two of.
You, Yeah, it was. It was a little weird, but we fell into like a rhythm pretty quickly. I mean by that time, we'd already we were already both like very invested in this case and this story. So yeah, I mean we we were so obsessed with it at that point. We were talking about it constantly, and so like it felt pretty natural after a little time passed. And I'm actually I was born in Florida, so also, like the landscape there was kind of familiar to me.
I have some family down there, so there was like a little bit of familiarity in that aspect as well.
Well, that's what I was going to ask you. So where were you both like coming from? You were coming from New York, Gilbert, is that are you from New York?
Yeah, I'm originally from upstate New York, but I've been in I've been in New York for the last thirty something years, so yeah, I'm a New Yorker. But yeah, you know, and I'm really used to Florida. I think there was some you know, weird things of like when we were like basically roommates for a couple months, and like I think Kelsey was like, am I supposed to cook? Is that part of my chob realize like he doesn't cook. He just eats out all the time.
It's true.
Yeah New York, Yeah exactly, but but yeah, I just it was it was it was an adjustment, especially but once we built into the schedule and like we'd stay home, do all the phone calls, do all the prep work there, and then just go out in the field in Lakeland, And it was really nice to be able to get away from Polk County and just be working outside of Polk county because I don't really like working in the counties that, you know, because then people start snooping around
and they know where you are, and you see them around and they know where you are. I didn't want to deal with.
That, so right, right, So so getting to the case, did you go into this skeptical of his innocence? I mean, I know this came across your desk from a very reputable person, a former judge. You know, honestly, did you go into it thinking, Okay, this is an innocent man or how did you guys go into this?
Were you ever skeptical of his innocence?
I'm always skeptical, and even though this came to me through a judge, I just it's not that I don't trust anybody, but I just have to like know for myself that I'm going into something that I know enough about it. And so there were months that went by where it was just research, and you know, it did help that Judge Cup was vouching for him. But I
think I try to put a timetable on this. I think it was, you know, at least weeks before I said, it really looks like this guy could really be innocent, and you know, from reading from the transcript, it was pretty obvious to me that he was not rightfully convicted. But once we got down there and met Leo and started doing our own real deep research on it, it was pretty clear.
To us that we were dealing with an innocent man.
Kelsey, would you agree.
With that, Yeah, definitely. I mean I think before we met Leo for the very first time, we tried to read everything we could get our hands, and so we had a really good understanding of yeah, of like how the trial went, what evidence was there, but you know, you never you never really know, like everything doesn't come out in court. He could be wrongfully convicted and not necessarily be innocent. I think there is a little bit of a distinction there.
Yeah, go distinction then for listeners.
Sure, yeah, Gilbert might be better at explaining this. This is a distinction. Judge Scott Cupp drew, you know, the very first time I met him, and probably the first time Gilbert spoke to him as well, that you know, stuff can go wrong at trial, like prosecutors can do shady things, and it can somebody can be convicted on bad evidence or I don't know, Yeah, I mean, things can go wrong. But maybe they actually did do the crime, or maybe they had some knowledge of it or something
like that. This in Leo's case, he wasn't there. He didn't do it, he didn't know anything about it, which I think is where at least Judge Scott cup would draw the line it like, you know, he's innocent, he
didn't know anything about it, he wasn't there. But yeah, so we had all of that, all of the documentation, that information and going into meet Leo, and then I think, you know, that first meeting, after hearing him speak, that kind of really solidified things for us that it was like, it was really hard for us to kind of wrap our head around how he could be guilty after that first meeting.
So, yeah, that's a really good point. And I think sometimes you can get to a point where the prosecutor just doesn't prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt, but you know, a person can still be guilty. And so that was one of the things that I was trying
to always consider. But I think what made this case really interesting is you have this other person involved in this who is actually confessed to the murder, and so the investigation starts to go to him too, and I remember just specifically having a thought like if Leo, if I ever catch him lying to me, or if he was trying to mislead me or being really not transparent about certain things, that's going to lead to more skepticism. And I just to devote this much time and energy
to a case that could fall apart on me. You know, I think back on the NAACP and when they were doing these cases in the forties and fifties, they couldn't afford a single loss. So when they were going down there and defending innocent people, they had to make sure that that person was innocent because a loss would be too damaging. And you certainly don't want that coming back
on us. But you know, once we were aware of who Jeremy Scott was and we started investigating him, it became not only a problem, you know, a situation where Leo's not only innocent, but it's this guy. This guy did it, And that was what was really intriguing to us.
I'm Maggie Freeling checking in with Gilbert King and Kelsey Decker from Bone Valley and we will be right back.
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One of the more powerful moments for a lot of listeners was in chapter two when you go to the evidence room together.
What was that like and why was that so emotional? Particularly for you? Kelsey?
Yeah, So, I think by the time we went and viewed those photos, we'd already been down in Florida for a couple months. We'd spoken to Leo a number of times, we'd spoken to you know, a lot of the people
you hear in the podcast already. So you know, by that point, I was pretty deep into the story, and you know, I felt like I did have kind of a sense of who Michelle was, and you know she by that point, you know, she really felt like somebody I knew to some degree, and I think just going there, like I knew some of what we were going to be seeing, but I don't know, it's it's just it's hard to be prepared for, you know, actually seeing the violence and yeah, I don't know, just the the trauma
and the violence of all of it. Just really the brutality. It just I don't know, it really hit.
Me, the brutality of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there's just also something about, you know, going through and having this lead up to the evidence. They showing us all the physical evidence that the plywood that's resting on her body, we're seeing the downy bottle that was
smeared with blood, and then you start seeing clothing to clothing. Yeah, that starts when you start seeing all the bloodstains on that and the and the tears and the rips from the knife, and then you know, the finally they bring out the pictures from the autopsy, and you know, it's just you feel like you've seen pictures of her. Now, you've talked to her family members, You've talked to Leo, you talk to Michelle's brother, and it's just hard to
get that out of your head. And I think, you know, we're always doing debriefings and just keeping the recorder going, and I think just we got back to the car and like Kelsey made it through all of that, the whole evidence room, but I think it's just like sort of snuck up on her and hit her. I don't know, but you held off through the whole through the whole evidence room, but it was just you know, you got away from it and that's where it hit you, I guess.
But I think sometimes it's the processing, you know, like I tell our producers, like when I'm doing these interviews, you know as a journalist, Gilbert and Kelsey, now you'll know too, like you just sometimes have this wall up to get through it. And then it's after the fact when I go back and i'm transcribing and I'm listening to the interview that I'm like, oh, now I'm processing it, and it's really hitting what was said or what you're looking at.
Definitely, that's a really good point That happens to me a lot too, And I'm sort of, you know, you're in the moment, but you're asking questions, you're thinking of things to ask, you're trying to get into the flow of the interview, and you're in a different space, and then you go back and listen to it. We had the same experience with Jeremy just going back and listening
to it. It just it sounded even more powerful than it did when we were there in person, just hearing his voice crack and the pain and torture that he was feeling. It almost like flew by me a little bit while we were in the room.
But boy, well sometimes it does.
And that's like for listeners to know, Like when you're in that room, you're really like, well, I got to get this question, and is my tape recorder working? Like it is very hard to do eighty thousand things and focus on the interview and process it all at once. So yeah, definitely what listeners are hearing is very crafted, for sure.
Yeah, And you know, we did so much prep for that in that interview, just by the way, you know, and it was I think it was clearly the best interview we've ever done. Like it was the last one we did, basically, but it was the best one. I think we were so prepared for and we were just working off each other and he was being so responsive to both of us. It was a really incredible thing to go back and listen to that and think, Wow, I cannot believe we got all that out of them.
Are you still in touch with Jeremy?
Yeah, he's really difficult to reach again. He wrote me a letter. It was a couple of months ago. I hadn't heard from him a long time. It was a really short message and he said, you know, dear mister King, I don't hold a grudge against you for doing this story. I wish you the best, but the monster in me is coming out and I'm going to be locked up for a long time.
And I was like, what is this?
You know, this was a short note that I got from him and then found out like a couple days later he was involved in some kind of altercation with a weapon and he got moved to a different prison and put in solitary confinement. Don't really know the details of it, but he's locked up for a long time, so I don't know, you know, that's kind of a life he's led in prison. It's extraordinarily violent, extraordinarily impulsive, he gets moved around constantly, there's psychiatric issues.
But I do try to stay in touch with him.
And we just got another letter from him last week and so he was writing again. So I'm going to stay in touch with him. I think I'm the only one who's writing to him.
Well, let me ask you about that, because I'm sure there's a lot of listeners who are going to go, why he's a violent, horrible, murderous person.
Why stay in touch with him?
You know, I don't know a really great answer to that, other than he is a human being, and he exposed part of himself and it's you know, really came clean about the nightmares that he has and the punishment that he's feeling in the torture he's having. And I do believe that he's trying to help himself by clearing his conscience of this. And also I think he's trying to help Leo. And I just see that as something admirable,
and Leo is thankful for it. And basically we follow Leo's lead on a lot of these kind of moral and ethical decisions.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's definitely something I care about, Like I don't I do want to stay in touch with Jeremy, I know, like I never want to downplay all of the harm he's caused. But I feel for Jeremy too, like he's he's had it really rough, he really never had a chance in life, and as much harm as he's caused, I still feel like, I don't know, he deserves a little compassion, and I you know what, Yeah,
I agree with Gilbert. He's trying to tell the truth, I think, and I think he's genuine and he's remorseful, and I don't know, I want him to know that that's not going unnoticed. Like I want him to know that he's doing a good thing and he's doing the right thing, and he should be proud of that.
I think, you know, that's probably why all of us are on this network, because not only are we journalists, but we're also humans and we recognize is the humanity in people. And I think all of us would agree that nobody is defined by the worst day of their life.
And I think, you know, I think that's really beautiful that you guys put in Jeremy's story and took so much care to show that he was once a kid and you know, he became a product of his environment, which is really, really tragic, and I really appreciate you guys putting that in there.
Yeah, and I think you know, he's taken responsibility for his acts. He's confessed to all the murders he's committed. He knows he's not ever getting out of prison. He really shouldn't get out of prison. He's extraordinarily violent and impulsive. But you know, it doesn't mean we still can't care for him and wish for him the best in the rest of his days. And the fact that he has nobody to talk to, and you know, I'm the only one he's writing to. You know, that comes with some
kind of responsibility. You know, I'm I don't want to be his best friend, but I do want to be there and talk to him and listen to him, and you know, who knows what else he'll say.
Sure, speaking of Probably one of the craziest things besides the actual killer confessing to the murder that someone else is in prison for, is that you come across another murder while investigating Michelle's murder. Where is that investigation at will? Anyone Jeremy ever be prosecuted for that.
You know, this is maddening to me because we went several times to the Ossiola County Sheriff's office with our evidence and with our letters where Jeremy started taking responsibility for killing this cab driver, Joseph Lavere. It wasn't just his confession. We had other evidence that we put together, stuff that didn't even make it into the podcast because you know, we didn't really feel the need to expand on this forever after he confessed. But we've brought it
in a couple times. We brought it into the State Attorney's office, and they basically have just refused to investigate it, which I just find flabbergasting. Actually, it's clear evidence they have a confession, and they basically doubled down in their response by saying that we believe that we prosecuted the right guy in dan Odie, but he wasn't convicted by the jury, but we still think he's the murderer. And you know, for me, that's annoying because these prosecutors are
always talking about finality and the justice system. You got to respect the jury's verdict, but here they are smearing a man who's been quitted and calling him a murderer because it doesn't fit their narrative.
I don't know why they're.
Not investigating it. It's just it's beyond me to understand why they're doing that.
Have you talked to Joseph Laver's family.
You know, that's been a really tricky thing. We've tried tracking him down. I've sent messages. They're scattered all over.
It was a broken family.
Joseph had gotten divorced about a year before he was murdered, and so the family just kind of scattered. He had a young son at the time, who's maybe one or two years old, and tried to find him, but he's locked away in jail as well, and they just haven't been able to reach him. So we haven't had any luck trying to get Lavera's family, and there's some other reporters who have tried too and have not been able
to reach him. But that's definitely something we're going to continue to pursue because I don't believe justice has been served in that case.
So, Kelsey, something listeners want to know about is you were always asking Gilbert about his feelings. Why did you do that? Was that just instinctual, like what was up with asking Gilbert about us feeling?
Yeah, I suppose it was kind of instinctual, like, you know, I had a feeling that we were there on the ground, we were doing the work, and you know, in some ways the listener is going to look to us to kind of interpret what's going on and what we're seeing and finding out, and some of that is sharing what we're feeling and how we're processing it. And yeah, you know,
Gilbert started to get the hang of it. You know, it didn't come incredibly natural for him, but but we made some progress there, I think, And yeah, it was it was a learning curve.
Well, yeah, I mean I imagine Gilbert and your other reporting. No one's usually putting a mic in your face and saying, how do you feel about this?
No?
I hate You know, there's that line in that Departed where they say where talking about Freud says that the Irish or immune.
To therapy, it just doesn't work on the Irish.
That's who I feel is like, what are you asking me my feelings for?
Who cares?
Yeah, it's it's an awkward thing, and you know, there's also a lot of compartmentalization that I tried to do in this kind of stuff, Like, if you get really emotional and thinking about the humanity and the pain and all these waves of violence in the story, it can really kind of paralyze you. And so I always kind of put that stuff in the back and just try
to be in the moment with this stuff. And so I think it was kind of funny when Kelsey's asking me these questions about my feelings and I'm just you know, doing logistical stuff and just yeah, I didn't really ever get the hang of it. Just awful at those kind of stuff.
Well, it's funny because listeners seem to think you loved answering and talking about your feelings, so surprise listeners who did not. So so people love Bone Valley and it's been my favorite podcast of the year. Why do you think so many people are responding to Bone Valley? You know, there's a million podcasts out there about cases, murders, wrongful convictions.
Why are people resonating with Bone Valley.
You know, I'll just take a quick stab at it, but I think it comes back to the work you did with Suave when it has heart.
Suave has heart, that story has a lot of heart.
And I think you know that was in our heads too, Like we wanted to tell a story with heart, and we want it to be you know, emotional, not just a true crime like procedural.
We wanted you to care about the people.
And I think because we spent so much time with our subjects and got to know them so well and they were so comfortable talking, that you begin to care about people like Chrissy, not just Leo, but just people in the story. And I don't know, I just think there's a human and emotional connection to this story that felt real while we were working on it the whole time.
Well, and that goes back to you know, the whole being compassionate to Jeremy. You know, if you had just treated him like a subject and not a human, I highly doubt we would be where we are with any of the information you got from him.
Yeah, I think that's true.
And I think, you know, like it's just I don't think there's much interesting in black and white good versus evil. There's a lot of those gray areas, and you know, Leo has his own gray areas, right, It's really in the beginning, it's really hard to feel sympathetic for him. When you hear all this, you know, bad character evidence coming in and he's talking about, you know, his relationship with Michelle. It's not a perfect relationship. They're a young couple,
they have their issues. It gets a little volatile at times. So Leo's not like the fuzzy bunny of wrongful convictions and Jeremy. You know, Leo doesn't think Jeremy's the monster he was looking for. And I think that's what really makes it interesting.
M h.
How do you how do you think, you know, how does Leo feel about Jeremy now today.
Leo is.
I think Leo is very grateful that Jeremy is telling the truth and that Jeremy is trying to do what he can to correct this injustice. And I think, you know, Leo, Leo cares about Jeremy as another human being. I think, you know, kind of like us. Leo sees Jeremy as
somebody who who deserves respect for being a human. And you know, despite all of the terrible things he's done, and I know that Leo still prais for Jeremy and thinks about Jeremy, And yeah, I don't know, I don't know what else to add to that.
Yeah, and I think it's just a testament to Leo's character and you know who he is as a person. You know, in the prison, he's like extraordinarily educated. Now he's a mentor to a lot of young inmates who come in the jails. The prison looks to him to sort of guide people who are having a difficult time.
He served as a mentor. There's times when we've talked to him and we talk about getting out and he'll say, like, I'm not sure I can actually leave this place because there's so many people counting on me.
It's like a family.
And we've talked to so many people that who've echoed that to us, and it's just so natural for him to actually even care about Jeremy's mental well being and spiritual health.
Yeah. Absolutely so. Has Leo heard the podcast.
No, he's not able to hear the podcast, which is really interesting to us because he he's getting every day, he gets people coming into him like guards, administrators, outside contractors. He works in maintenance at the prison he's at and so he has a lot of dealing with the outside world and you know he I talked to him on the phone just the other day, and you know, he said, Gilbert.
Everybody I know is telling me they listen to the podcast, and guards are coming up to me and they're saying, you know, I always thought that you were someone who didn't seem like they belonged here in prison. But now that I know your story and I know that you're innocent, I just want to hug you and tell.
You I'm sorry.
And you know that has meant so much to Leo to get that kind of affirmation, because you know, these guys don't talk about their cases, especially with outsiders. You know, it's just like not done. And now these guys are listening to this podcast and realizing, you know, that Leo's innocent, and you know, he says, he's been getting so many
updates from like on visitation days, like other inmates. Families on the outside are listening and they want to meet him and you know, tell him good luck, and they're how sorry they are, and it's just really moving. I think he's finally finally getting like the kind of feedback that you know, he's always wanted, that people believe in his innocence.
I think it's really validating for him, even though he can't listen to it. It's kind of some of the feedback is kind of trickling down to him, and so he's able to, you know, feel some of that. And we're glad he's he's able to feel a little bit of it, because after all this time and all he's put into it, it's kind of crazy he can't actually listen to it.
Yeah, it really is.
I know that his sister has been reading like the transcripts to him from like the last episode, and he said he got all choked up about the concert.
You know.
Gilbert came to the concert and he had hurt never heard that before, and I said, yeah, it's it's one thing on the page, but it's one thing to actually hear it, you know. Like I think I read that part four times.
And I couldn't get through it without like breaking up.
And I think on the fourth one, I there's a little bit of a break in my voice.
And we said, oh, Les, go with that one. It's it's realistic. You can't.
You can't get through this, so you might as well just be there.
It's all honest, Gilbert Kelsey, I'm just going to pause you for a second. I think we're going to take a quick break and we will be back with more questions for you guys, do not go anywhere.
Sounds good.
Sounds good.
So Gilbert listeners want to know, are you going to write a book about this, because they know how impactful Devil in the Grove was and they want to know if you plan to do something similar.
Yeah, I mean, it's something I think about. I'm a big believer in the power of podcasts and what they can do to right or wrong. And you know, a book, I've never gotten this kind of reaction from many of my books before, Like this kind of reaction I'm seeing from like all these people writing me, and it's just amplified and exponentially, and so, you know, there's a lot of a lot of material that we couldn't get into the podcast.
You know.
One of the things is we were trying to do this parallel narrative that I sort of fantasized about doing. Is like Jeremy on one side Leo and eventually they you know, meet somewhere and yeah, but it just it didn't work on the audio side. I think it could work on the written side. But there's so much, so many characters who didn't make it into the podcast. Some
detectives it just it just quite didn't quite fit. We had a we have over nine hours, but still it was it was a it was a labor to get that down.
I you know, I believe that.
And so four years of work absolutely.
Yeah, And we went in some directions that you know, we just like the conviction and tegatory review units we did. We interviewed several conviction and tegative review units. We went in that direction, what does it take to overturn it? And it just sort of felt like it was taking us out of the immediate story of Leo and Jeremy and Michelle's death. So we just sort of put that
stuff to the side. But there's a lot more there that we didn't really really need in the podcast or didn't seem to work, But I think it would work in a book.
So it's something I'm thinking about, but I haven't decided.
Am I allowed to say that Leo is also contemplating doing some writing.
Yeah, He's talked about it.
I am envisioning some sort of collaboration between Gilbert and Leo. That's what I'm That's what I'm hoping for.
I would love something like that.
He's a superb writer. I mean he can reduce you to tears with his emails and letters. I mean, he's just such a thoughtful, emotional guy. There's things that he says sometimes that you know, like I don't really pick up until I hear it later and go, wow, did he just really say that? Like he's just a really interesting storyteller. And it transfers to the to the written page when he writes too. So I would be honored to do something like that.
Wow, we will hold our breath.
And listeners also want to know is the gang getting back together for another podcast?
Another case?
You know, I don't know how to answer that.
We have a couple of cases that were really interested in we haven't really had a chance to explore them.
I would love to.
I think that this team that I was working with, it just made this podcast so much better. Everybody brought in their individual skills and.
Just raise the bar.
When I look at some of the origin scripts that I wrote for this while I was just waiting around for things, I said, well, I might as well start writing. They are so bad compared to what we had now when we had collaboration, like with Kara and Britt and Kelsey and Rucks, everyone came together and just sort of made everything better and it was honestly, it was a
dream team. I don't know, if Kelsey is like your your first time experiencing any kind of collaboration, you must think it's always going to be like this, But I'm telling you what we had was really really special. In everybody who's being on the same pages.
I can recognize that. And yeah, I would love for the team to come back together for a second season or another story or something, so certainly open to that. But if that happens, the plans are still being worked out.
So the ultimate question is what is the status of Leo's case? Right now? People are asking does he have appeals left?
Someone else asked, you know, the autopsy said that the killer was left hand, and did is Jeremy left handed? Wouldn't that be important for you know, some sort of appeal?
What's going on?
Yeah, I mean, I'll just address the left handed thing because it is interesting and Jeremy is left handed, and you know, I think there's a case to be made, like how do you stab in a car? The first we didn't really try to speculate so much about what exactly happened in the car. Because I think once we believe all the blood was found outside the car, that's
where her blood had pooled. I believe that she was killed outside of the car, and you know, she was stabbed in both the front and the back of her torso, and so clearly, like you can't really tell where Jeremy might have been kneeling or standing when he was doing this, and so to speculate about his left handedness, I don't think it's really relevant or even something that you could prove in this particular case.
So we've asked, we asked the crime scene expert about that, and apparently, like unless you know the exact position of how somebody was standing or kneeling as this happened, it's hard for that to be real evidence of anything. So unfortunately, even though it is Jeremy is left handed, I'm not sure that that really can prove anything.
Yeah, and as far as the case goes, I mean, he's literally legally out of options. His last appeal had failed. They appealed it to the Florida Supreme Court, which refused to hear it, and so he's unless there's some discovery of new evidence, which really seems kind of unlikely at this point, because you have physical evidence linking Jeremy to the scene, and you have multiple confessions, detailed confessions, I'm
not sure what else can arise. You know, I think the crime scene was gone over in such a sloppy manner. There was evidence that was left behind that probably could have linked Jeremy there as well. I'm thinking particularly this box of cigarettes that was like right not far from the bloodstains. Jeremy said he was smoking afterwards before he moved the body.
We asked him what kind of cigarettes he smoked? Marlborough. He would never have known that.
Granted it's a common brand, but there's only one pack of cigarettes near those bloodstains, and the police photographed it as if it was evidence, but apparently never collected it. Right, And so there's a lot of evidence from the crime scene that you know, Jeremy said, you know, he wrapped her in in a plastic tarp and dragged her down there. Well, if you look at the crime scene photos, you can see several plastic tarps right there in the bushes, in the garbage, and it.
Was never collected.
So I don't know, you know, you're ever gonna get that again. And there's not like some video camera in a tree back in nineteen eighty seven. So I don't know where there's going to be any new evidence that's going to be more significant than having your fingerprints and multiple confessions linking you to the crime.
Yeah, but just to clarify, Leo's really his only two options are being released on parole or some clemency after and of course with parole that's not the same as an exoneration. So even if he is released on parole, he will still be considered a guilty man.
And does he have a parole date.
I don't think there's a date so far, but there should be a hearing some time around March.
Right, and you know that's going to be that's going to be an interesting hearing. I'm curious if the state is going to show up again because the last three times that Leo has had parole, and you know, he's he's served his minimum sentence of twenty five years. He's a model inmate. He's started programs. He says to us, you know, I had to invent programs to graduate from in prison. He has like no disciplinary record.
He's just he's the model inmate.
Yah. Right, I think it's been like sixteen seventeen years since he's been written up for any sort of disciplinary thing.
Yeah, that's and all minors stuff that never happens in prison, right, But his refusal to apologize and take responsibility for killing
Michelle is what's keeping him behind bars. And every time he's up for parole, the parole commissioners seem ready to release him, but then the state attorney or an assistant state attorney shows up, throws out the autopsy pictures and says, never apologize, never said I'm sorry, and the commissioners just sort of flip and change their opinion and deny his parole, and it's well, will this.
Time be different?
Now that you know we have again Jeremy confessing on tape to you guys, do you think this time could be different?
I think that the.
Public awareness of Leo's case could be different. I think there could be, you know, a media scene at his parole, like expecting him to be paroled. I think I think I know a lot of people in Florida who's told me they want they plan on attending that, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a large crowd there to see Leo get parole, but you.
Know, it remains to be seen.
Does the State Attorney's office want to continue to resist this and to fight this and to sort of double down on Leo? I think that will be a really interesting question because that parole is coming up in you know, just a few months.
Well, I was, I guess, you know, one of the questions people keep asking is why is the state's attorney office so adamant on keeping this person in prison when we have someone confessing, we have the evidence, you know everything you guys have said, what is going on?
You know, it's just I think it's just this culture of protecting convictions and you know, this finality that's sort of built into the system. There's political reasons for it. They don't like to lose convictions sometimes. You know, in this particular case, the assistant state attorney who prosecute is no longer alive. He was also Jeremy's prosecutor, and so it's complicated. You know, why is this guy going into an office by himself, without a tape recorder and a
witness and interviewing Jeremy about this particular crime. It's just like, I think it's completely unethical, and so I think They're not only having to defend the conviction of Leo, but now they have to defend their office because we're accusing their office of of certain unethical behaviors. And so I think it's just sort of a way of doubling down. Just Oh, it's just guys promoting a podcast. It's just the you know, the media, don't listen to them. We
know what we're doing. They're completely opposed to conviction Integative Review units in Polk County. You know, they told Kelsey in an interview that, you know, we get it right, you know, we don't need the Conviction Integative reviewunonit like they do in Tampa and Jacksonville.
That is just so arrogant and just like anyone who says that, it's like people who are like, I'm not racist, they're probably racist.
If you need to announce you're not racist.
Like, we don't get it, we don't get it wrong, you probably are getting it wrong right.
And one of Teresa Hall, we interviewed from the Conviction Integative Union in Hillsborough County, and she was like, you know, if if a plane falls out of the sky, there's going to be an investigation because we don't want that to happen again. If a doctor, a surgeon loses a patient on the table that shouldn't die, we want an investigation. We want to make sure that that doesn't happen again.
With lawyers who are dealing with life and death issues for some reason, lawyers who sue airlines and you know, sue doctors and hospitals, but they don't want their own work looked at. It doesn't make any sense. We know that they get cases wrong. We have a very healthy record of exonerations in this country of people who are wrongly convicted and released from death row. So you are getting it wrong. Why are you afraid of an investigation?
Well, and to be clear for listeners, it is particularly designed that way by prosecutorial immunity qualified immunity. So just so listeners know, this isn't a fluke. It is designed so they cannot be held accountable, right, And that's.
To me is like the most disgusting part of this thing is like, you know, we looked into the history of the of the tenth State Attorney's Office, and you know, we found some cases of the wrongful convictions, and we found evidence that state attorneys were hiding exculpatory evidence from the defense, and I just thought about that, like if and these guys, by the way, they get their name mentioned in a Florida Supreme Court opinion, they don't lose their job.
They can continued to.
Prosecute after doing this, and you know, sending someone to prison for the rest of their life wrongfully, there's no consequences. I was thinking if I was to say, I'm writing a book like Devil and the Grove and I find a legal document where all the Groveland boys like confess to their lawyers and said, we did this, you got to get us off. And I said, well, that doesn't fit my narrative.
I'm hiding that.
I'm going to put that in a box and never see it and not have it affect my narrative. You know, if I got caught doing that, my book would be pulled from the shelves and I wouldn't get.
Another publishing contract.
Right, So I have more accountability than the State Attorney's office does. And so this whole thing about the integrity of the courts being more important than you know, the court of public opinion, I don't buy it.
Yeah, So obviously this podcast got a lot of people riled up.
How can they help Leo?
Well, we do. We do have a petition out there. I'm pretty sure it is on the Lava for Good website. It is a change dot org petition that is was put together by the Innocence Project of Florida, who represent Leo.
And so what you know, they're calling for, what we are supporting the call for is a transfer of Leo's case to one of these districts that has a conviction integrity review unit, because we think if somebody is able to really take, you know, a look at the full case, at all the evidence that, you know, everything that's come forward over the years, they'll see exactly what we know, which is that Leo is innocent and that Jeremy Scott killed Michelle Schofield. And you know, we're hoping that some
sort of independent review can happen. And so the petition, signing, the petition, getting more attention for that is kind of what we're we're putting our energy towards right now. I don't know what else, Gilbert, you you're a little more tuned into this at this point.
No, I mean, right now, that seems to be the thing the stage that we're working for is like, we're just sort of supporting the Florida Innocence Project's efforts to get this petition signed. I believe that there will be other things that will come up as this sort of aftermath of Bone Valley sort of develops. I think, you know,
it could be in any direction, but we're waiting. There's a lot of people listening to this in Florida, and a lot of people have reached out and said they want to help and they want to do something about this.
And that was very much the feeling I had with Devil and the Grove of when people started coming up to me saying we're going to do something about this, and suddenly this political movement began, and sure enough, then it comes across the desk of the governor at the time, and that's when the pardon started.
So hopefully enough people will.
Listen and that kind of you know, grassroots effort will begin again.
I don't know if this will surprise you guys, but a lot of people want to help Jeremy as well. They want to send him stamps. Will you be able to put out his mailing address so people can do that.
You know, we're working on that right now there's Jeremy's in a different situation than Leo because he's in the solitary confinement and he's not allowed to nobody's allowed to receive stamps anymore. They cut that back at the at the Department of Corrections in Florida, so all the mail has to go to this one clearing house in Tampa and then it gets delivered to the various prisons and
Jeremy gets a copy of whatever letter you'd send. We're trying to figure out a way because I've had a lot of people contact me saying they want to put some money in his canteen. They heard about, you know, how broke he was and he couldn't buy soap, and they just wanted to reach out and help. And so we're trying to figure out a way to have maybe a middle person be the collector of this, and we just haven't been able to solve it yet, but we are working on it.
So if people want to stay updated on you know, the petition, how to contact Jeremy, where do they go?
So with the petition, if you signed the petition, you will receive updates if you know if there are any updates posted to the petition, you will be notified that if you sign it, so that is also motivation to sign the petition so you can get those kind of updates. But we're also Gilbert and I are both on Twitter and are updating with whenever stuff comes through. Also Lava for Good. If you follow Lava for Good on social media, they're definitely going to be posting any updates related to this.
So yeah, just you know, be on the lookout for stuff on social media and with the petition.
Hey, Maggie, I have a question for you. What are you working on right now? What do you have going on?
Well, we are working on season two of Wrongful Conviction with Me Maggie Freeling, and that is going to launch January ninth, and you can find that in the regular Wrongful Conviction feed with me and Jason and.
I'm very excited. This season is just some of the most egregious cases.
We're really focusing on women, so everyone should listen and yeah, I can't wait.
That's great.
Gilbert Kelsey, thank you so much for talking with me.
Thank you for listening, Thank you for answering listeners questions, my questions.
We really appreciate it.
Oh, Maggie, thanks so much. It's such a pleasure to actually do an interview with.
You and really talk to you.
Well, you interviewed me last time, so this has been