Blunt Force Trauma Deep Dive And The Trials of Karen Read

single day that you go to practice. Practice for me was always worse than games. But you know, my football career came to an end as a result of a car accident that I was in and guy ran a red light. And I had this beautiful nineteen sixty eight Mustang that had been restored three speed transmission.

at four lane Street. I was going green, he blew the light hit me, and I wound up being in hospital for about a month, lost the sensation on the left side of my body, hurt my C five, C four, and eventually through traction, those were things they relieved that problem, but I've never completely recovered from that. My neck still cracks,

it still hurts. It hurts too because I always think of about what if you know, well, what I went through that day is something that I'm sure that many of you guys have gone through throughout your lives, and that is being involved in a motor vehicle accident. You

can bear witness to them, and that's terrifying enough. But you know, when you're suddenly rear ended or somebody just comes out of nowhere and hammers you, it's one of the most terrifying experiences of your life because you're like you're at the mercy of a machine at that point in time, and all of that energy is transferred into

your body. Well, today we're going to talk about that energy transfer, and we're going to talk about it in various modalities, but the theme today on bodybacks is going to be blunt force trauma, and I think it's going to make for an interesting conversation, and I'm hoping that you'll learned something along the way. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks brother Dave. I was on the same defense in high school as Jesse Tuggle was. Jesse

Tuggle is the career leading tackler in NFL history. They called him the Hammer. Played his entire career as a walk on by the way, as a free agent, a walk on in college, and as a free agent. He was non drafted and wound um being And I've never been hit so hard in my life, and by Jesse Tuggle. Sweet guy, but he's the only person I ever saw talk about blunt forces trauma. He's the only guy ever

saw in football that. And he played defensive end in high school that actually caved another person's face mask in with a single blow from his forearm.

because as we were talking about doing this show, Yeah, I realized how ignorant and I mean unknowing of what that is. And looking at some of the pictures of the different aspects of blunt force trauma. You know, I've learned so many things from you doing this show, and I thought one of the most common modes of blunt forest death if you have to, is there like a graph anywhere where you can look at these and go, yeah, here's.

talk about gun violence and all these things, and yeah, it's real, it's out there, but it nothing comes close to motor vehicle accidents, particularly in America.

the campus. And this was when I was over in Georgia teaching and one of their colleagues, one of their students, fellow students, came up in the class and said, hey, Professor Morgan, you know so and so has been hit. They're on the way to the hospital, you know. And sure enough, I looked out in my classroom winning I could see the flashing lights. I felt a little guilty because I was back then. I was very stringent about

showing up on time and for the day. I'm not that brutal, but they were probably sprinting and not paying attention to.

they are struck head on by another approaching vehicle. Well, the vehicle or they hit a fixed object, that vehicle that they're traveling in is going to come to a dead stop theoretically, Okay, well, not everything in the vehicle comes to a dead stop, all right, because just because you're anchored with a safety belt, or just because an air bag deploys, you still have this energy that is going to be transferred from that impact. And as the car comes to a dead stop, your body for that moment,

Tom is still traveling. Let's just pick a number. Let's say still traveling at forty five miles per hour. The head on collision may have taken place at forty five miles per hour and your body is still traveling through space at that point, and you know, the seat belt catches you. You know, I've had people that have been

killed by their seat belts, Dave. And one of the main things that happens, Just to give you a sense for this, if people will take there, you can use your left or your right hand and find your sternum and move it about. Go kind of high up on your sternum and just below your about two inches below your collar bone, your left collar bone, and go down about two inches stop right there, just to the side

of your sternum. That's where your aortis is. And your aorta is like the major gigantic vessel that comes off of your off of your heart, and that's where you know, like oxygen, aitty blood is pumped through that. It runs all the way down your spine, it bifurcates, comes into your fenmeral arteries, it goes up and transfers out to your arm through your brachial arteries. It's a major source. So what happens is, Dave, that arch, it's the aortic arch is so fragile. So when your body stops, guess

what your internal organs are still moving. People don't think about that. Your internal organs are still moving like your body doesn't. The shell of your body might cease motion, but for a millisecond, the organs within your body are

actually still traveling. I've had cases over the course of my career where the heart will slam up against the backside of the sternum, and when that happens, the order will tear and there's a very fragile area where it kind of it's kind of the root of the order, where it comes off of the heart and it literally and look at it. Just do a Google search on

aortic arch and you'll see it. It's curved. There's a real fragile area right there where it kind of roots off of the heart and begin it's downward descent and you get these little rips in it. And let me tell you something, even if you've got a team of cardiothoracic surgeons that are standing right there, there's a high

probability they're not going to save you, all right, And so you're going to bleed out. And that's as a result of blunt force trauma. You have cardiac contusions where you'll have you know, the heart slam up against the chest wall. I've seen that you get what's called a cardiac tampa nod where the pair of cardial sack will tear. It's that this, for lack of a better termam it is a sack that your heart is encasing that autopes. We have to cut this thing open, and it's filled

with cardiac fluid in there. It kind of bathes the heart and when you that is compromised, the sack fills up with blood and it compromises the heart's ability to beat. So you've got all of this stuff. Another fragile organ in your body. That's that is I was going to say impacted, which is kind of accurate. It's the liver and the spleen as well, because they will slam forward

liver when you get a rip in the liver. Physicians particularly I don't I can't speak to any other physicians, but forensic pathologists they refer to those as liver fractures. And you think about fracture relative to the bone, but when you look at the surface of the liver, it'll have this kind of irregular, jagged kind of tear in it, and they'll call that a hepatic fracture many times and it rips open, and buddy, if your liver splits like that, your gut's going to fill up with blood. Spleen is

very fragile. You'll have that. My favorite aunt in the world died as a result of a car accident. She got t bone. The thing that killed her. She got hit on the driver side of her door in her Chrysler Imperial. It's like a nineteen seventy four Chrysler Imperial. You could put eight bodies in the trunk of the thing. And my aunt Roxy, that was her name. She died as a result of three of her ribs on the left side being fractured and driven into her lung. Lung deflates,

chest fills that with blood. They put a chest tube in. She lasted from maybe two or three days, but you know she was older. You can't recover from that sort of thing. So you get all of these types of injuries that arise from the number one source of blunt force trauma that we experience in America, and that's motor

vehicle accidents. That's why they try to make them. They try to make motor vehicles safer than they used to be many times, and people really take exception when you start to talk about this sort of thing many times. And I know, seat belts saved lives. You know how many times have we heard that over the years, And that's all find good, and yeah they do. But in

my world, we see seat belt injuries. You know, you'll have these big diagonal marks that'll run from the apex of the right shoulder all the way down to like your left iliac crest, which is you know where your pelvis is on the left side of your hip there, and you'll have this big, nasty, abraided area that runs through there and it's you know, that's where that locking mechanism kicks in with the seat belt and your body stops and you kind of fold like in this weird way.

If you could see it in slow motion, it's kind of ghastly to watch. And if you go back when I first started my career, you had shoulder belts, but majority of people still had lap belts in their cars. Well, that energy transfer with lap belts. If people you remember, people never wore lap belts, people didn't wear safety belts, and people that did wear lap belts when they would hit a fixed object This is so gruesome. It's one

of the most gruesome injuries you can sustain. They would have we had there's like a cluster of these things pelvic fractures. So when the pelvis fractures, which is horrific in and of itself. I've got a great story about when I worked as an er tech setting a fracture of pelvis on a twelve year old boy that had slid into home plate catcher fell. He impacted the catcher

and fractured this kid's pelvis. The pelvis would fracture. And if you you know I've talked about the federal arteries that run they run through the floor of the pelvis. There's these holes in bone are referred to as framing, and so there's these little framing that these vessels run through, and if any of those are fractured in any way, they create these sharp edges and you can you know, those vessels are severed, and again they're hard to get to, to dig into, to try to you know, try to

tie them off. People bleed out, you know from that and having touched on you know what happens to the brain because again you're in you in motion, and your your brain is encased in this rock hard rock hard bony uh uh I don't know, vault. It's called the cranial vault. Not a lot of cushion. Your brain is surrounded. It's actually contained in a sack as well with within within your brain. It's called the dura and it's bathed in uh in cerebral spinal fluid, and it's it's supposed

to act as a kind of a shock absorber. Uh And if you ever see the inside of a skull, it's got these really nasty kind of you know, uh, undulations in it and that sort of thing. So when the brain, if you didn't have that cushion in there,

we'd have a lot more people did. But if you get hit from the side, you have an initial energy transfer, and these are called coup and contracoup injuries where the brain will if you're hit from the left side, well

the brain. Let me get this straight. So your head in reaction to being struck on the left side will go to the left, but your brain is traveling to the right, Okay, And as you come back, the brain is traveling from the right to the left, so it'll slam up against both of those walls and you get these big indwelling subdural subarachnoid hemorrhages that are in there, and you begin to bleed out in your brain and

those little vessels in there can get clipped. There's so many things that can happen to you in a car accident that it's quite quite striking on one level. Remember when we did the episode, and I recommend to anybody that hasn't. We did an episode on Sharpfort's injuries very recently, and I talked about people being impaled. In Sharpfort's injuries. You have objects that come through cars that sort of thing,

and again those are puncture wounds. But you know, you've also got items that are in cars, okay, and they're not buckled down. So let's say you're traveling down the road and in your back window, your kid at vacation Bible School painted you a stone to use as a doorstop, you know, and it's in the back window. Well, there's certain ways you can be hit in that car, and that stone that's free floating or is not anchored down in the car suddenly becomes a projectile in that environment.

That's why if you see like have you ever seen delivery trucks, dave that like vans that have that screen that's between the front two seats in the van. It's a metal screen. Well, there's a reason they have the metal screen. It's it's not to like I mean, I guess they have them in prison vans. There's a reason that companies have been encouraged by insurance companies to put these things in because anything's being carried in the back suddenly becomes a projectile and it is flying through the air,

so you can be impacted that way to day. Well, they you know, some of the most brutal cases I've ever worked were resulting from blunt force trauma within a household. You know, we talk a lot about knives, but knives are in a sense are weapons of convenience because you walk in the kitchen and maybe if your dishes are clean and you put them away, you might run across a knife. But with blunt force trauma, those are what we refer to many times in homes as weapons of convenience.

And you know, it reminds me of the game Clue, And I got to give you an insight. I think I've said this before. I've never won a game of Clue. And I'm a forensics guy. I don't do well much.

For instance, if you have a pipe, okay that has a threaded end on it, and someone is struck with that pipe, you can see the impression of the of the threads from the pipe, particularly how much force. And you know what those threads are, how they're being displayed, Well,

they're being displayed actually dave through an abrasion because abrasions come up. Man, we can all identify with abrasion. So I would submit to you that everybody has sustained a blunt force trauma at some point in time in your life, even when you were a little kid. If you fall down on the ground and go boom, if you have had a skin knee, a skinned elbow, skin, shoulder knows whatever it is that is evidence of blunt force trauma.

And what happens is those abraided areas that you see, the skin is literally being kind of plowed through at a very superficial level, and that top layer of skin down to the dirt. You know, you peel back that epidermis, you've got the dermis. It's going to hemorrhage, and it's going to hemorrhag slightly. It's why it has that red discoloration. It begins to dry out after sometimes you'll get a scab on it, that sort of thing. Well, that's kind of the superficial level. If you're at the top end.

It depended upon how much force is behind that strike that will travel down through the dermas and into what's called the sub q fat, that kind of cushioned area that protects the outside of our body and overlies the musculature. And so with that depth, you're going deeper and deeper and deeper. Depended upon how much forces applied, and also Dave, how much how many times they've been struck. And I got to tell you the story about the worst.

There've been a fiance for like the last decade. Well, he's like a raging, angry alcoholic and his fiancee is suffering from all kinds of debilitating physical problems. They had a studio apartment in public housing. I'd never seen one of these before, and she slept on the pullout sofa in the front room of the house, and she was always covered in blankets and she couldn't move. She had diabetes, she had had a partial amputation of one of her feet,

heart disease. I mean, the list just goes on and on. So you know, he's what's referred to as a mean drunk. Well, I got called out in Atlanta. This radio signal for death is forty eight, so they call it a signal forty eight, and it came out initially as a forty eight natural is the way that the radio call. But she's found dead, so I'm mandated to have to go

out to the scene just examine her. And I roll out there and I met by a young uniformed officer and this male that's hanging outside and he is hammered, hammered, and there are these cans of beer that each individually. They're big Mont liquor cans that are still wrapped in paper bags, empty, but they're laying all over the place and sitting up on the stairs. And when he greeted me,

he's like, hey, Cap, how you doing? And so for me, and I had police officers that were telling me that if someone calls you cap, and I'm wearing a bage they call you Cap, there's a high probability they've done time because it's like a formal address, you know, hey captain, like captain of the Guard and that sort of thing. I said, Hey, how are you? And I didn't want to talk to him at that point, I just wanted

to go in and see this Lely's body. Well, the young officer followed me in and said, yeah, he came home. He's been out all night. He came home and found her dead in the bed. And it was hot, I mean it was so hot in this apartment. And she's covered in like three layers of blankets. Well, I'm looking at her. I pulled the blankets back, Dave, and she's got this dirty nightgown on. And you can when you pull the blanket back, the smell just kind of rushes out and hits you. And it's not dcom it's a

smell of feces. It's a smell of urine. It's kind of stale urine smell. And as it turned out, it was also a smell of bed sores. And so I began to examine her. And day when I pulled back, pulled back these blankets and pulled up her just a dirty, filthy nightgown that she had on. That she had all of these contusions, which remember it goes abrasion in contusion. So contusion is deep tissue. It's a bruise. It's a fancy term for a bruise. So you have to get

past the abrasion. One hundred and sixty seven of them,

one hundred and sixty seven of them. The reason I know that is they were in this odd shape. They were shaped. See how can I describe it? They were about each one of them was about an inch in width. They had a it almost looked like a saw tooth end at the terminal end of each one of them. And I say saw tooth, kind of jagged, and each one of them varied in length from about twelve inches up to about sixteen inches. She's covered with them, Dave. And when I saw that, I looked at that officer.

I said, put his ass in handcuffs, put him in the back of the unit out there, called detectives, get CID in route. I've got a call back to my office. Call back to my office because I'd never seen anything like this. And when I'm describing this, I get the pathologist that happened to be a friend of mine that was on duty. I said, look, man, I said, I've never seen this. I would really prefer that you'd come here. He's like, come pick me up. And we were not

that far away from the office. I ran, you know, blasted over the office, grabbed him when we came back, and I'll never forget this friend mine. He's from North Dakota and he he's got this real thick North Dakota accident. He's like, oh my like that, and he said, I've

got it. We've got to get heard her good lighting so I can better examine her and took her back and I was with him in the morgue and I suited it up for this and we start taking photos of these injuries all over her body, Dave, and you couldn't They were mostly intire on the front of her body because she was bedridden and laid in one spot, and she had these big ulternated bedsores. It was one hundred and sixty seven of them. And the physician looked at me and said, there is something in that house

that matches this pattern. You got to go find it. So myself the homicide detectives went back out there and in their laundry room day there's a shelf over and people can identify, you know, the shelf that you have over your where you keep your detergent and your fabric softener and all that. And I started moving things around and in the back behind like where the detergent was, there was a busted or fractured dryer belt. Now, if you've never seen a dryer belt, there actually more robust

than car belts than car fan belts. They're big in diameter. And sure enough, Dave, the thing matched the pattern on the end of this thing that every time he came home, blistered, drunk, he would grab this thing. And this poor woman who's so debilitated, is completely dependent upon her fiance, he would beat her every single time. This and again this is a first for me. When we were in the morgue, you've heard have you ever heard the old term beaten

to a pulp? When the physician, because we were trying to age what they call age the wounds or age the bruises contusions, you create these external incisions just to go down specifically into that area. She had been beaten so faroosle Dave that her subkey fat in many spots had liquefied, and when the incision was made, it, along with blood, came porn out. Look, there are any number of ways that blunt force trauma can be sustained. I'm thinking right now many times about our elder population I'm

sure that many of us can identify. We've had elderly the old ones that have fallen and you know, broken a hip, that sort of thing. Our bones are not as robust as they were when we were younger. That's a form of blunt force trauma. And you'll find people that are not in necessary haven't necessarily had a heart attack, but they they're they're lightheaded, they don't have the same gait that they once did their steady and they can

fall and crack their heads. You'll see that many times the manifestos seen and sometimes you see that and you're thinking, oh, my lord, you know they've been beaten and that's not the case. But for us in the field, Dave, we look for any manner of injury that we can tie back to a specific object that may have created it.

a lateral view. Then they do specific close ups of the body like they'll be one completely devoted to the head, one devoted to the hand, and it can be left or right hand if you want to get very specific. And they do one where the top of the head, the calvarium top of the skull is missing and you're looking down into the cranium vault well with a Kief's the thing that I noticed about his it was so very no pun intended striking, was the fact that he

had two separate groups of fractures. He's got this kind of anterior thing that's going on with the right eye where that fracture goes through the floor of the skull. Okay, and it ceases before it gets to the frame and magnum, which is where your spinal cord dumps dumps down, you know, where your brain stem turns into your spinal cord. It ended before that, but and it's kind of a spider web. It looks like spider web when you see it. He's

got one of those on the backside too. These are two separate events, so you've got an initial impact boom, you know, being hit. You know, they've described this trauma on the right aspect of his face, and then you've got concurrently, you've got this strike and there's this laceration on the backside of his head. Well, when he impacts whatever surface he impacted, if you're particularly hit by car, you can that energy transfer is pretty tremendous, you know.

And I know a lot of people are saying, well, he was beaten up by other people and dumped out there. Well, if you say that he was beaten by other people, my question would be would be what was he beaten with? Because hands are not going to generate those kind of fractures inside that maybe I guess if he could if he got stomped on. But if somebody gets stomped on, you pattern abrasion.

in back of his head. That's blunt force trauma. That it's you know, maybe a little bit larger than an inch, and it runs east and west. It's in the horizontal plane. And so that energy from that created this other, this other fracture on the floor of the skull. So when you look at that, you you know, you begin to you know, kind of try to assess and O'Keefe is

merely an example of this. In a morgue, we try to assess what, first off, what instrument could have caused this, and also what instrument could have caused this it would have sufficient force to do this, okay, because you're not just going to like fall down, go boom, and you get this kind of complex fracture pattern in the on the floor of the skull. That's not the way that happens. It's not the way this works. It's not the way

how any of this works. All right, It just doesn't you go and push that out here.

And all you can do is give that information back to the police that are trying to understand circumstances. And that's what circumstantial evidence. You present them with the physical findings you know that you have there, provided that the information that was gleaned at the scene is sufficient to the task, because sometimes in our world you don't necessarily have all the data that's coming in.

to mind. Oh, where we had a lot of information on that story as it was, because it came in late and we were figuring out and I remember you and I were talking about it and more information came out and it was like, wait a minute, that explains so much something small, and it basically for you could break the case wide open because you knew based on all of the information you had, on the physical evidence of what we had for that point that even without

a body, based on what you were told, you were able to figure out what happened.

felt like and poor, poor poor angel. You know she's blond anyway, Dave, I remember that, you know, she's blond and she has to wear glasses. I know what a struggle.

which God bless those people that do that job. I don't know how in the world that could do it, but I think that everybody that's hearing me right now can understand this. Let me kind of run down the

timeframe so that everybody understands about blunt force trauma. And one of things we look at not only in the morgue, but when you have a social worker or a physician that's working for law enforcement that's assessing child abuse cases, one of the things they do is they will age bruises and just give me a little latitude here and let me break it down. So when you initially get a contusion on an impact injury, you're going to be looking at the surface of the skin will be kind

of red. It's like that irritation. Remember how I talked about with an abrasion anything that makes contact with the skin, even a fist, a closed fist, it'll have that kind of red discolouration and you'll see that in the immediate Then it'll take about one to four hours and you'll begin to see blue and purple, okay in the color. Just think about this on your own body. You know, generally about four days down range, that purplish area will begin to turn that creepy green color, okay, and that's

gonna last about four to seven days. Then you're gonna get the really disgusting color, which is yellow. If and that's just part of the healing process, and that's the blood that's contained in that contused area that is resolving. All right. It's kind of dissipating because it's often interstitial tissue. You've got broken vessels. The vessels are healing, and that

blood just kind of it disappears over period time. Will the yellow will stay around seven to ten days, and then after about fourteen to twenty one days, you're back to normal. We say, Morgan, what difference does that make. I'll tell you what difference it makes. If you've got an old going case of abuse, all right, if you if you're interviewing a child, and I'm talking now to

people that deal with the living. They will have that child assessed by maybe a nurse practitioner or maybe even a physician, and if they notice that you have bruises on a body that are in these different states of healing, they're going to know that this is Dave, not a

one off event. Okay, I can't tell you how many these cases I've worked over the years where you'll have an individual that is their body is little bodies are just littered with contusions, and you'll have the suspect that will say, well, oh yeah, well they fell down the stairs. You know, my next question is how many times and what days did they fall down the stairs? Because you because of those color changes, you know that these are

not one off events. You'll have these layer things. It's kind of like the woman that I was mentioning that was beaten to death with the dryer belt over and over and over again, and these things are layered on top of one another. So it's very important for us to be able to assess, you know, assess these injuries, to contextualize it relative to relative to know what's going on and again with her, one of the things that we're looking at is what's referred to as pattern impact trauma.

What could have generated We were talking about baseball bats just a minute ago, and let me tell you how this kind of breaks down. You'll find this fascinating if you ever seen a slow motion the slow motion, super slow most shots of a baseball being struck by a bat, where it's going through the strike zone and the ball you can see just for a millisecond, the ball bends, It literally bends and wraps, particularly with an aluminum bat or metal bat, it'll rap. Just for saying, you'll see

an indentation. Do you know. Our skin works the same way, So if you get struck, if somebody gets struck in the arm with like a baseball bat or any solid object, for an instant, the skin will wrap around the circumference let's say it's a cylindrical object, around the circumference of it, and then pop back into place after being struck. So that's why many times these contusions actually appear a bit

larger than the actual instrument that generated it. So if somebody struck with a barrel of a right in a sweet spot as you guys call it, right in sweet spot of the bat, that contusion is going to have the appearance of a much larger object. But what's happening as that central point of impact is hang on, I'm showing Dave. I got to demonstrate to him that I know how to roll my wrist. So as you roll your wrists through the swing, the tissue will wrap around

the barrel of the bat. So even something that's not directly struck will slap that outer portion of the bat and you'll get this real broad ranging contusion. And that's

one of the things you kind of assess now if you're using something like a hammer, because we have people that have hammer attacks where they're struck it it's not

necessarily the same shape. What's fascinating like hammer attacks and blunt force trauma is that if someone is struck in the skull, you'll have a coin shape, if you're thinking about standard finishing hammer, a coin shape, a braided area in the skin, and then when you reflect the scalp, you'll have these perfect plugged areas of fracture, and it's a circular fracture, which you don't see a lot in the skull and these things. Many times, what happens is

is that as the skull. The external table of skull is fractured away from those anchor points around it structurally that it's not the hammer being driven into the brain, it's actually that plug of bone that's being driven into the brain. So you've got this layered event and you get multiple of these, the skin is not necessarily going to appear the same either. We've got all over the body, and surgeons know this. We have what are referred to

as lines of Langer. And if people are out there that have been in the military, one of the first things they teach you to do in the military is to study contour maps and it gives you height, elevation, that sort of thing. So the tighter those lines with elevation, they follow the pattern of the ground. Well, we have those patterns all over our body and they're very predictable. As a matter of fact, when people are when med school students are studying human anatomy, they learn the lines

of Langer. So if you make an incision like classic concision everybody's familiar with is what's referred to as the McBurnie incision, and that's for an appendectomy. For years people you know, it wasn't always done laparoscopically where they're gonna go through your belly button. They make this diagonal scar. It's on the right lower quadront of your abdomen, and it runs it runs diagonally opposing to where the actual

appendix is. The reason they make that incision that way is because it follows the line of langer, essentially, like if you're talking about furniture, it follows the grain. So if you cut across the lines of Langer, it opens

up into this really ghastly injury. Okay, Well, when you have someone struck by an instrument, okay, like a bat or a hammer or whatever it is, a car, they get these big nasty lacerations that are abnormal in appearance, that the sides don't appear to marry up, you really have to, like like in the morgue, we'll use tape.

Many times, we'll use really strong medical tape to try to pull the side together, just so that we can appreciate how the two things connect, because when you take the tape off, it's just going to spring back out to this real irregular I don't know the best way I can say it is like a Frankenstein, you know, cut because it's so odd when you see it and you know that you're dealing because that's a true laceration, you'll have these little bits of skin that attach to

either side. That's called tissue bridging, so it's not completely cut through. So you're going to see that with blunt force trauma in particular. So it's I would say, dave that compared to gunshot wounds and anything I ever had to assess in the medical legal context, blunt force trauma by far is the most difficult thing to assess, make a record of, to try to connect with some specific object that's out there. It takes time, Unlike I mean,

everything that we assess takes time. There's a learning curve with it. But I still to this day, to this day, at this age and stage in my life, there are still things daily that I can learn about blunt force trauma and the scars that are left behind. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags